On today's 234th episode of The Thriller Zone, host Dave Temple sits down with Rachel Howzell Hall for a return performance to discuss her latest thriller FOG AND FURY.

As always, Rachel is a superb guest, and she provides insights and instincts like few other writers. There's a reason she's atop the best-selling charts!

Fog and Fury is the star of today’s show, and trust me, you won’t want to miss this conversation! Rachel our fantastic guest and prolific author, is back to chat about her new thriller that feels like both a fresh start and a cozy return to familiar vibes.

We're diving into the heart of her latest protagonist, who navigates a world of moral ambiguity and emotional depth, all while dealing with the foggy complexities of life in a small town. With a mix of personal anecdotes and insights into her writing process, Rachel shares how her characters come to life, reflecting the intricate layers of human experience.

So, grab your favorite beverage and settle in, because we’re about to embark on a thrilling journey filled with laughs, deep thoughts, and a sprinkle of literary magic and...

Thanks for joining us here in Season 9!

Learn more at RachelHowzell.com and follow us at TheThrillerZone.com

Takeaways:

• In this episode, we celebrate Season Nine of the Thriller Zone and dive into the fascinating world of author Rachel Housel Hall, who has a new book titled 'Fog and Fury'.
• Rachel Housel Hall shares her excitement about writing, revealing how her latest book feels like both a departure and a comfort zone at the same time, showcasing her unique style.
• The conversation touches on Rachel's personal journey through her writing career, including her experiences with illness and how they influenced her storytelling approach.
• Listeners get a peek into the research process behind 'Fog and Fury', as Rachel explains the importance of understanding small town dynamics and the intricacies of real estate development.
• We discuss the significance of character development in thrillers, emphasizing Rachel's commitment to creating multi-dimensional characters who grapple with moral ambiguity and personal struggles.
• The episode wraps up with some quick-fire questions, where Rachel emphasizes that the key to writing is simply to put your butt in the seat and write every day, no matter what.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• Scripps
• Cedars
• UCLA
• Blackstone
• Thomas and Mercer

KEYWORDS: Fog and Fury, Rachel Housel Hall, thriller podcast, writing advice, character development, suspense novels, psychological thrillers, small town mysteries, literary interviews, storytelling techniques, book covers, author interviews, crime fiction, literary inspiration, writing process, plot twists, book recommendations, literary voice, publishing industry insights, first-person narratives

Foreign.

Hello there.

Your host Dave Temple here for another edition of the Thriller Zone where we are now celebrating season nine.

Man, I am so excited.

What does that relate to?

We're down to what episode 234 and today's guest is someone who has been on the show.

We found out two years ago this week what never happened was that book.

Now she's got a new one.

Fog and Fury.

Check out that cover, will ya?

Look at that.

That is some kind of gorgeous.

Rachel Housel hall is on the show today.

Have you ever wondered how many books she's written?

Well, let me tell you something.

Land of Shadows, guys of Ash, Trail of Echoes, City of Saviors, they all fall down and now she's gone.

These toxic things we lie here.

What never happened.

What fire brings the last one.

And now fog and fury.

This gal is busy.

And this, this particular book feels like almost at one time a departure, one time something brand new and at the same time comfortable as well worn shoes.

Either way you're going to enjoy and you're going to love this conversation.

I always have fun with Rachel.

So let's get into it on the Thriller Zone.

All looking fancy with your little cook.

How are you?

It's amazing how many people mentioned your little cup.

It's.

You know why I drink in a little cup?

Because if.

If I drink in a big one, I just drink too much.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this is about nowadays.

Is that ever a problem?

You look f.

Maybe we should.

You look fantastic.

Might I say I came back from vacation.

It was vacation.

We went to.

We went to Atlantis, Bahamas.

Yeah.

And we got back Thursday night and I did not.

And I'm.

I'm back at my day job and it's like.

Oh man.

How long were you gone?

From the 19th until Thursday.

It was wonderful.

It was absolutely wonderful.

It was so perfect.

The food was beautiful, the people were warm.

It was.

Yeah.

So I still have that just from vacation glow.

Check me next week and I'll be scowling again.

Yeah, I wish I could market that.

Yeah, right.

We can make a fortune, couldn't we?

Yes.

Yes we could.

Yes we could.

How's this?

Just in modeling that just relaxed glow.

It's Rachel hall.

That's me.

And I need a little soundtrack behind it.

Something light and tinkly.

Yeah.

No, I'm good.

Life is good.

It's.

I am.

By the way, you're my first or second episode somewhere around there of a season nine.

Holy.

Has it been that long?

Girlfriend?

Can I say that by the way you were here two years ago this week.

Wow.

And that was 138.

That would have been.

That would have been season five.

We're now in season nine.

Oh, my God.

Oh, my God.

It doesn't seem like that long.

Oh, you look great.

Well, thank you.

I mean, since I've seen you, I've gone through prostate cancer.

Oh, wow.

How are you doing?

I'm great.

I had the.

I had a.

I had a surgery.

I had radiation.

I had.

Were you seeking treatment?

Where did you have treatment?

Where?

Scripps.

Okay.

Yeah.

Wait, you're down in San Diego?

Yes, ma' am.

I thought.

Wait a minute.

What?

I thought you were up here.

Why didn't you think you were up here?

Well, I have a studio up there that we sometimes.

In Glendale.

In Glendale.

When we can arrange for a sit down.

But I only, I, I piggyback on somebody else's studio.

It's, it's not my own.

Okay.

Truth be told.

So.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's.

I did not expect you to say scripts.

I'm like, I know scripts.

And that's not.

Because I expected you to say Cedars, ucla.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

If, if it, if I were in Glendale, you and I would be sitting there breathing the same righteous air.

It was always hard for me to.

Because I, and I work for Cedars and.

Yeah.

And so, like, I have, like a career.

Career.

And I just had my one on ones and now I'm slotting this in because.

Yeah, that was why it was always hard, because.

It's okay.

It's all good.

It's all good.

Well, I'm glad you, you're, you're recovering.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

It's.

Yeah.

I, I, it is zero.

And I'm good and I'm feeling almost better than ever.

And.

Yeah, it's.

I am going to take a little time off of the summer, which, as you should.

I worked all the way through the cancer surgery, so I'm like, why did I.

My wife said, well, you know what?

As a survivor, I did the same.

You know, I, I was pregnant at the same time.

And, you know, they give you the three days and then I was back at work.

I think, I think it has to do with control.

It's like, this is normal.

My work life is normal.

I can control it.

I don't have to think about what's actually happening to me.

And so I don't want to just.

But you look back, it's like, well, why was I rushing to get back to.

But that's what it is.

It's.

It's A sense of.

You're seeking normalcy.

Yeah.

And I don't know, Rachel, what I think about that.

I think normalcy is good.

Of course.

But I.

You and I are both pretty driven.

I've followed your career.

I mean, you're.

You're clocking a nice, tidy dozen books.

And.

Yeah.

Your work ethic is unmatched.

And I know that it.

You're right.

You said it's.

It's control.

It's feeling.

What's the word that I'm always feeling?

Valid.

You know?

And so my wife says, can I ask you something?

I'm like, well, she goes, why do you work so hard?

You're not getting paid for this.

I'm like, well, I don't.

I don't have any other switch, but full on.

There's no.

There's no drop feed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, we are.

We are from the same.

Same tribe, but it's like, for vacation, I actually left my laptop.

I didn't do anything.

I read and didn't do anything, but that's, like the only week in my.

In my year that I do that now.

Can I ask what you were reading?

Was it fiction or nonfiction?

Nonfiction.

I always read nonfiction.

Well, but then I started.

Wait.

When I read Richard Preston book Demon in the Freezer, which he published right before COVID And then I started reading the Spaceship, the Space Shuttle, the Challenger book.

Nonfiction.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Usually it's a shipwreck book, but there were no shipwreck books this year.

Like, last year, I read David Gran's on the Wager, so I like nonfiction.

When.

When I'm on vacation, I'm with you.

I don't have to think about the.

Tricks, you know, I don't have to.

I'm going to find that loophole there somewhere.

Come on now.

Right, right.

So, nonfiction.

I can never write a book about Space Shuttle Challenger, you know, so I can actually just enjoy it.

But, yeah, we're very similar.

Yeah.

I just like to be learning something all the time.

All the time.

All the time.

We were in the hotel room, and, you know when you're in another country, the channels are on.

Yeah.

And I found the History Channel, and it was about.

Oh, my gosh, Dillinger.

Oh, yeah.

And everybody was asleep, and I'm like, ooh, John Dillinger.

And then there was going to be another one, another random one.

And I told my husband, it's like, if you want to watch something else, take the remote.

But I can sit here and watch, you know, History's Mysteries, like, all day.

And be fascinated by it.

So.

Yeah, yeah, we'd be learning stuff.

That should be a T shirt.

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

Hey, by the way, I always like to start out with this, with the COVID and Rachel, this thing is so beautiful.

They are incredible with covers.

And you saw the.

Do you have.

Wait, you don't have the, the hardcover yet, do you, do you have the hardcover?

So the make it book has.

Yeah.

Oh, I didn't even see that.

Uh huh.

On all my Thomas and Mercer titles, if you take off the dust, the dust jacket, they have like a little extra something.

Oh my.

They're getting up there.

And I know I'm gonna piss off somebody when I say this.

They're up there in Blackstone territory because Blackstone tends to do stuff like that.

Yeah, yeah.

So no, it's a.

It's a beautiful, beautiful book.

Well, this is not only when I saw this, I saw me because I'm a big fan of San Francisco.

So I saw my head went Golden Gate Bridge.

It's fog.

Yeah, of course.

And I.

Oh, I'm all in.

And then of course we find out it's a little bit different.

Yeah.

But favorite title.

Fog and Fury.

Yes, that's one of those titles that I went.

Okay, now somebody has no one ever snagged that title before?

Because that is.

They haven't.

You know, it's a play off of Shakespeare's.

Ah, Is it Macbeth?

Is it Macbeth?

I want to say Macbeth.

I'm going to ask.

I'm going to ask you to recite that right now, if you would, please.

Right.

Oh, yeah.

All right.

Well, it is drenched in atmosphere.

We're going to get to this.

I want to know what drew you to this environment.

I'm just going to start out of the gate with that.

I got so many questions.

I know we're tie on a time crunch because you got so many things.

You got so many people to talk to because it's coming out soon.

Writing.

Writing proposals and saving the lives of patients and their families.

It's my, my day job.

One family at a time.

Yeah, one family at a time.

What drew you to this atmosphere?

And we're going to drill down on too Sunny Rush.

Oh, I love me some Sunny Rush.

I love Sunny.

Well, I wanted her to be from, you know, where I'm from, a big place that is mysterious in itself.

But if you've lived in Los Angeles like I have all my life, it's not that much of a mystery to you.

And you feel kind of confident navigating wherever because it's like I'm from one of the biggest cities in the world.

So the idea actually came from.

I was invited to be faculty for the Mendocino Coast Writers Conference.

And I took, you know, the flight into Santa Rosa.

Such a cute little airport.

Oh, yeah.

And, yeah, it's so cute because Charles Schulz and the Peanuts thing is like, oh, this is so darling.

And I get my rental car and I'm fine, and.

And then I hit this highway and I freak out because it's one hairpin curve after another after another after another.

It's like for hour and two hours, I'm just holding my breath and trying to get to Mendocino coast on Highway 128.

And I've never been so scared in my life.

And it's absolutely gorgeous.

They're redwood trees and the peaks of the ocean, but then they're like logging trucks and more curves coming the other way and people who are speeding up behind you who know how to get there.

And so it was.

It was so stressful.

And when I finally got to my destination, I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to get back to the airport.

I can't drive this thing again.

And that made me think.

And then I got to Mendocino Coast.

Absolutely beautiful.

But then where I was staying, there was like.

It was an older couple, so they didn't have, like, the latest intact.

So there was no TV in my room.

There were no lights outside.

It was just dark.

I was laying in the bed in the dark, and I didn't know what to do.

I was so.

I was scared.

I really was scared.

And I was loathing the ride, the drive back.

And I'm like, this is material right here.

Rarely am I, you know, this uncomfortable in California, especially around, you know, in this state that I love so much.

And I'm like, this is a story, and it should be a story about a woman who's coming somewhere to start over.

And she has this romantic vision of what this town is, because Mendocino coast, which is based.

The story's based on.

Haven's based on.

It's breathtaking, but so are so many of our coastal towns.

And then the fog rolls in, and then it becomes even scarier.

So I.

I wanted that kind of layered, that beauty, but then that kind of lasagna's worth of menace underneath it, too.

Well, mission accomplished, young.

You know, your protagonist, she doesn't feel like kind of that typical thriller lead, which I.

I think that's one of the Things.

Somebody asked me the other day, I was visiting some friends out in Utah.

It, you know, what is it that you are fascinated by on your show?

What, what keeps you going?

I'm like just hearing authors, different worlds that they create and how they come up with this so forth.

And I'm like.

But they said, what's the downside?

I'm like, well, to be perfectly frank, because if you know me, if you ask me straight up, I'm going to tell you exactly what I think.

And I said, it can get a little tedious.

It gets a little repetitive.

I said, but when you find every once in a while either an author and, or an author with a lead protagonist that is off the beaten path, it's just so unique.

You just wrap your arms around and you go, oh, I can't wait to get through this thing, get into this thing.

And, and I think that's what's so great, is its non typicality.

So what, you know, what inspired her creation because she's, what I love about it too is she's just not.

When I see lapd Cobb, I kind of think monotonic, right?

I think, okay, one, one, one through line.

Yeah, not the case here.

Yeah, no, I, I, she was inspired actually by Lou Norton, who was my very first series character in my Lou Norton series.

And Lou is an LAPD homicide cop.

And she's really upstanding and noble and kind and you know, she's that the, the, the perfect cop.

I want it like basically her cousin.

I wanted someone who was good, but also, you know, didn't have as much patience as Lou, who kind of, you know, broke some rules in a way, but not too much because, you know, I still hold fast the belief that, you know, especially black women can't do too much of the coloring outside of the lines and being a lone wolf because we don't get to do that.

Right.

And I, so I wanted someone like her, but who had conflicts, who, you know, dating someone who's not totally free, whose mom was, is experiencing early onset dementia, who's been screwed by the system in many ways.

And I wanted her to be fascinated by why we do the things we do.

That is what's driving her career.

She wants to figure out why do we hurt each other?

Which is always my question.

You know, so she's kind of, she's modeled after that.

And by making her a P.I.

you know, she hasn't taken a vow to the mayor and to God to serve and protect.

It's about, you know, her main through line is I need to make some money.

And this is.

I know how to do this thing right here.

Right.

And I'm going to do it, and in this beautiful place with my boyfriend and my godfather who runs the agency.

You know, in some ways, she's very much a capitalist, which isn't Lou.

So I wanted someone with those kind of, like, different kind of motivations and weaknesses and gray areas, and I found her.

I love Sunny, and she lionizes her father, which, you know, she's a daddy's girl in many ways.

And she's even driving the truck that he used to drive.

So she's many things.

And, you know, I think people are many things.

I think it's up to us writers to figure out how to make us as people and as characters different and to pull on those things that makes us unique.

Yeah, it's those teeny, tiny, little fine details that feel like throwaways.

But like the friend, for instance, the papa's truck.

I mean, little things like that, you know, that there's.

There's admiration, there's.

I want a little piece of what he was.

Who he was.

Yeah.

And the whole aesthetic thing, because she is from la, and if you've seen those, and I know you have, because you're in California, you've seen those redone Broncos.

They're sexy.

They look good.

And she wants to look good because.

Yeah, it's my dad's, but look at this.

Yeah.

Have you seen.

And I don't know if you're referencing this right here, but have you seen the company that takes those and retools them to the nth degree?

Yes.

And I wish I could afford one of those.

And Kevin Bacon, while I was writing this, he actually redid his Bronco and was giving it away as a fundraiser.

And it's like, that's the.

That's the one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's so hot.

Oh, my God.

They really are so.

Yeah.

So she is that Bronco in many ways, you know, remade into something new and then quickly disappointed.

Yeah.

Well, let's talk voice, because, boy, this is.

This is where you shine like the sun.

Thank you.

Your prose always carries a punch.

We all know that.

But how conscious of you are you of tone and rhythm?

And I.

And I know, for instance, when I ask very specific questions, I don't.

You know, I don't try to get mired down and, well, class, pull out your notebooks.

And this is where.

But it's the.

It's the nuance that I know that I can pick up from writers like you.

But I want to know about, like, you know, that tone and rhythm when you're drafting scenes of high tension, you know, what.

How conscious are you of that?

Or.

And I know if I recall, if I recall, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you kind of, you kind of sit on that fence of outline of pants or plotter.

So I always wonder, like, how much of that stuff just comes to you and how much of that do you.

Oh, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure she says this here and does that.

It's, it's, it's both.

Part of it is, you know, the whole musicality of writing.

I read aloud, everything.

And I, I, you know, when it comes to writing, my, My gods are Mosley and.

Oh, God, Elmore Leonard.

Writers who, when you listen, it's like jazz.

So I, you know, when I was starting this journey years and years ago, I was reading them because that's how I like hearing words, you know, and so it.

Part of it is educating myself on how they do it, which is why I don't read fiction on vacation, because I'm constantly a student and I can't, I can't, I can't rest if I'm a student.

So it's a lot of reading writers who I admire who have that kind of musicality.

And also, yeah, it's going back draft after draft and saying, is this how this character sounds?

Is this what, what would, what would Sonny say?

You know, when I'm creating every major character I do after the first draft, I give them their Briggs Meyer personalities and their horoscopes and all that, because it's like, well, a Taurus.

I'm a Taurus.

Driven and stubborn.

But Sunny is like a Virgo.

She is like Taurus times 30.

And so we are all driven.

But Virgo, there's something about that personality.

Like Beyonce is a Virgo.

So I want to make sure that those attributes are in how they speak.

And then I meld it all together, that last draft.

It's strictly the art of the writing where it's like dropping words and making it flow like music.

It's so funny you should say.

And it's such a perfect example, Rachel, when you said, like, jazz, reading this made me think one of my all time favorite jazz talents.

Miles Davis.

Yes.

Yeah.

Kind of Blue is my favorite album.

It is my top one or two.

Right.

Of all time.

But there is a.

An album he did where he just went off.

This was when he went off that deep end and he was Sporting the ginormous glasses, and he would turn his back to the crowd that all over the place.

And I can't think of the name of it, but when I was reading this, for some reason, I kind of felt that.

I felt, oh, it's.

It's kind of blue here.

And then it goes into that kaleidoscopic schizophrenic.

And I love that, the way that you did that.

Again, we're talking about voice and prose and.

Thank you.

And, And.

And some of that sadness, especially when it comes to Sunny and her relationship.

I thought of Billie Holiday.

I listened to Billie Holiday a lot in, In.

In college, and even this sounds random, but there's a video game I played, Fallout 76, and you get to listen to, like a radio station when you're wandering the torn up landscape and they include a Billie Holiday song.

And it makes me sad and happy when I hear it because her voice is just so plaintive and pleading but strong.

And, you know, I wanted those soft moments, those Billie Holiday moments for Sonny, especially when she was thinking about how her life has turned, how her love has kind of like just blown up in her face.

Yeah.

So, yeah, that.

Is that, that musicality.

Well, listeners, I hope you're get.

I hope you're really listening to this, because this, to me, is that little magic.

Why, Why I listen to podcasts is we want to drill down and find those little secret sauce, the magic and musicality.

I love that jazz tempo.

Elmore, as you said, was famous for that.

Don.

Don Winslow tends to do that a lot.

Oh, yeah, definitely.

And just it, to me, that is one of the single most enjoyable things, period.

Mic drop, end of story, full stop.

Whatever else I can do to punctuate that.

Yeah, but it's.

Yeah, it's that musicality that.

That rhythm.

So anyway, I've made that point.

I don't want to beat it now.

This book, Hawk and Fury, dances between suspense and emotional.

I'm gonna.

I'm gonna say complexity.

We kind of referenced that earlier.

When you're building a thriller, and I.

And I kind of like building a house, how do you balance plot, momentum and character work?

How do you balance that?

I think I see them as one and the same, because what I do and who I am, that Briggs, Meyer, that horoscope dictates what's going to happen next, because a Scorpio personality will just say, well, I'm just going to go and just kill everybody.

Fuck it.

Right?

Which turns the plot into a whole different story.

Whereas someone who's not so like hard headed and angry will maybe just sit on something and let the suspense build and build and build.

So my characters in some ways dictate when the reveal is going to happen, when they want to see the light, basically.

So again, it takes outlining, definitely, but also being open to the universe saying, yeah, well, not yet or they wouldn't do this right now because of who they are.

And that for me at least takes more than just one, two drafts.

That's like three, four drafts.

You know, you are the first person, Rachel, that's ever used horoscopes in the conversation on character development.

I'm, I'm 99.9% sure.

And so as I'm hearing, as I'm hearing you say this, I'm like, I'm an Aquarian, right?

Oh, peace.

Yeah, Peace, love.

And just like everybody just get along, which is why so interestingly.

But when I write killers, there's such sick, sadistic mother.

So they're, they're Scorpios or they're Leos.

Oh.

Anyway, I don't like necessarily subscribe to that in my personal life in terms of helping build character.

That's a perfect, that's a perfect thing.

Yeah, yeah.

God, I'd never thought about that before, but you said Myers Brigg and that triggered something.

Yeah.

God, I remember studying that back in school and it's so, it's, it's uncanny how close it is to who we are.

It's scary.

I had to do the work version of that a month ago and I had to go and read it to my husband.

So I'm like, this is a wit.

Because it had me to a T.

It was so scary.

Especially as I've gotten older, I've leaned into that kind of personality where I'm dominant.

I get it done.

Some see that as, as being mean, but it's like, no, I'm just trying to make sure that everybody gets things done and can have their own lives.

Why are we sending 8 million emails when it can be like 2?

So.

Yeah, yeah, no, the personality things, especially for a fiction writer who's.

I'm actually interested in making my characters into people, into complex beings.

I don't like reading something that can just be anybody.

Yeah, yeah.

And a lot of that is that.

And you know, sometimes readers don't like that.

They don't want people that they have to think about or that they really have to fear for.

They just want a cipher for themselves and that's the story and they don't care.

So it worked for me.

For the.

For.

Especially for readers who are interested in character studies.

But sometimes, you know, I get resistance for that.

I'm working on a book right now.

I've been working on it for way too long, hoping it's gonna get finished soon.

But I came up with this bad guy, and I.

And I wanna see what you think about this.

I won't go into a lot of detail.

Cause this is your show, Rachel.

It's not my show.

But I wanted him to be so superlatively evil, but.

And have a method of murder that you rarely, if ever see.

So there.

That there's.

That's.

Number one, that's hard to do.

Number two, make him poetic, almost artistic.

Little less difficult to do.

But then to make his style.

If I tell you what it is, it's so good.

I don't want to tell you what it is.

But what I'm really trying to get to is.

Is the fact that I like people like you who really take time to create that character that is not a cardboard cutout.

Yeah.

That has a true backstory.

And that you almost feel an empathy for them.

Like, bless their heart.

There is something genuinely fucked up about them.

Right.

Like Thanos.

Right?

He's like.

He got a point.

Yeah.

He's like.

He's not mean.

Mean.

I mean, he's mean.

He's probably let that.

That work personality that I have, it's like, why are we doing this, y' all?

Can we just, like, cut to the chase and just.

Yeah.

I'm fascinated.

Good luck.

Good luck.

Just so fun.

I'm always curious about something.

Many thriller writers lean heavily on research, you know, and I'm a big fan of that.

I matter of fact, let me show you something real quick.

Yeah.

This is my research for the book I'm working on.

That's just research.

Because I want to know the entire world and what makes it tick.

And then I'll never use maybe 10, 20% of that.

Right.

But did Fog and Fury.

Did.

Did you require deep dives into, like, specific topics or locations besides your drive up the road?

I.

I did one.

You know, the concerns of a small town, I've never.

I mean, I went to UC Santa Cruz, so that's technically a small town.

But as an adult, I've never lived in a small town.

So it's like, what are they concerned with?

And one of those things is development.

So I had to go in to find some small towns in California that are worried about gentrification and the Airbnb ification of everything.

And the town's dying, and what's that like?

And who wants what.

So that was like a big, big dive for me.

I had to figure out how some PI agencies work.

Like, for real.

For real.

That was.

That's always fun.

And just, you know, the fog.

I remember being at Santa Cruz and having it be May and June and it still being cold because that fog comes in and by 3 o' clock, it's burned off.

But, you know, people think, oh, you're by the beach, it should be nice.

No, there's a fog because of chemistry.

So researching that and then creating London, Sutton's character, the femme fatale of the story, because her background, her family is a wine family.

Wine winemakers.

And she, you know, is interfacing with one of the victims of the story, Xander Zander Monroe.

And I had to figure out what would a woman like her, how would she get to know a boy like Xander?

And so that was.

That took a moment because.

Yeah.

And she.

In my head, she first started out as an image, and that image is the actress Rosamund Pike.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So it's like that pretty, icy blonde queen who is, like, mysterious and kind of, like, scary.

It's like, well, what would she be?

She'd be a pediatric psychiatrist.

And that's how they got to know each other, by her leaning in and being concerned and him finding comfort in this person who is also angry that his parents took him from his home in Oakland and moved him up to this place called Haven.

You know, so she was a deep dive for me, but it was mostly the small town and real estate development and those concerns that, you know, people in those places have.

Well, then, of course, you had to do a little bit of deep diving on wine and winemaking and how you can appreciate it as you're studying and.

Yeah, I mean.

Right.

That requires some research, doesn't it?

You enjoy it.

It does.

It does.

It does.

And in the next book, Mist and Malice, I kind of dive deeper into the wine thing because we were up there with friends and did this wine bike, trolley, tour thing, and it was the most bizarre thing that I've ever done.

And it's in the book because it's like, what are we doing?

What is this thing that we're doing?

We're on a bike that we're all peddling together, 12 of us drinking, going from place to place.

This has to be in a book.

So, yes, research.

It is.

Yeah.

It is rife with complexity and possibility and danger.

Yeah.

From the mere fact of consuming wine while Bike riding.

Right, Right.

But it is.

But it's all in the same.

It's all in the name of good variety.

I want to bring readers authenticity.

Right.

I have a loaded double question for you as.

As we start making our way, you built a strong name and reputation that the thriller space.

I mean, all you got to do, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, is just open up the book.

It's not one page of accolades.

Oh, it's not two.

It's not three.

It's not four.

It's not five.

It's not six, seven.

It's eight and a half.

I have to convince you that I know what I'm doing.

Well, can I just say, between us girls, you don't have any.

You do not have to convince anybody, but.

Oh, thank you.

What part of this genre that you have mastered still excites and or challenges you as a writer?

That's point A.

So which.

What still.

What.

What still just lights you up?

Conversely, what's the one thing that drives you bonkers?

What lights me up is creating characters like Sunny and Xander and London and Mackenzie and even Figgy the dog.

I like people study and making them real.

What I still struggle with.

That's the second part.

It's because I write first person.

It's knowing when to stop with my introspection because I.

I personally have so many things running around in my head, and I'm constantly questioning things and wondering about things because we be learning.

And so my.

My editor still helps me say, you don't need that, you don't need that.

You don't need that.

So learning how to edit some of that out is something that I'm, you know, still learning.

And I'm getting better at it now that I'm more aware of it.

But, yeah, I like.

I like creating.

And even the cities are characters to me.

So creating these fully realized people and places and then, you know, giving you enough and shutting up without saying so much about it.

All right, since we're so cerebral, I'm going to finish.

I got one more good cerebral question, if that's the right word.

And I don't want to spoil anything on Fog and Fury, but it touches on themes of identity and justice.

Yeah.

Now, how do you explore moral ambiguity, which has a couple of big dishes of it served up in here in your characters?

Without tipping the scales too far in.

One direction, I try and have all kind of all thought and all philosophies represented, and then my main character selecting one of those and charging ahead and dealing with whatever Repercussions that come as a result of it.

So I, Yeah, I have my Greek chorus and everyone presenting their case, and then Sunny saying.

Or all my characters saying, I'm gonna take that one.

And I hope it's the best choice.

And sometimes it's not.

And that's what drives, you know, makes it exciting.

So I chose my own adventure.

What happens now?

So, yeah, when.

So, you know, you.

I, I guess I don't even think about it.

Are all your books in first person?

All except maybe, I think.

And Now She's Gone was written in third person, but I would say 98% of them are first person.

Because I remember two years ago, as we mentioned at the beginning of the show, what never happened was first person.

Because I remember thinking, bang.

And by the way, 24,000 stellar reviews on Amazon, might I say, which is cray cray for two years.

Cray cray for two years.

Yeah.

Yeah, I guess.

Do you ever find yourself going, you know what?

I'm gonna mix this thing up and I'm gonna write third.

Or I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get third.

I'm gonna do a mixture of thirds or maybe a first and third.

So I did a first and third for Land of Shadows.

Usually my books are first person present tense.

This is first person past tense.

So I kind of stick it up there.

Yeah, slow down.

I know, I know, I know.

Innovating all the time.

But I feel most comfortable writing is already hard and my time is already limited.

And so I'm like, well, why choose to do something new in that way?

I choose new types of stories and, you know, places and all that type of thing.

At least I'm familiar and comfortable with the mechanics of how I'm telling it.

So one day, when I have a lot of time, I'm going to try and do a third person.

Well, this, this begs this question, because I know you work a solid nine to five.

I mean, you're, you're, you're stacked.

So how do you squeeze in?

And this is, this is no light feed.

Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna.

If I were clocking it, I would say 360.

Let me see how close I am.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Look at me.

Not to toot my horn, but 370.

Yeah, 374.

Yeah, that's a, that's a hefty.

You know, it's not quite a, it's not quite a workout, but, I mean, no.

How do you squeeze it in?

So I, I, I still.

Except for that Week of vacation.

I wake up at 4 o' clock every morning to write until like 7 and then do the business of writing and then I start my day job and then at after work I will.

If I need to do some transcribing or something that's, that doesn't require heavy thought.

I will do that until about like from 3 to 5 or 3 to 5:30 and that's, that's it.

Yeah.

And Christmas morning.

I don't work on Christmas morning.

David.

I've got to draw the line somewhere.

Got it.

Yeah, I get it.

I get it done.

Because I absolutely love it.

I really, really do love telling stories and meeting these people and putting my Tippi Hedron type characters in their faces and you know, it's a joy to me.

Yeah.

And it shows.

And so shows.

I'm with you.

I'm a big fan of four o' clock.

Now.

My, my wake up is probably.

Well, today was.

Yeah, it was 4:55.

So it's somewhere in that 4:30 to 5:30 zone.

You know why the world is still quiet.

It's still quiet.

You can't do dishes or laundry.

You don't feel guilty for, you know, not being, you know, the day jobber or the parent or the spouse or any of that.

It's just you and the computer and your pets.

And also your mind hasn't picked up all that monkey chatter that's gonna, that's gonna roll in somewhere around 7, 8, 9 o' clock, you know?

Yeah.

No, I always say I give my, myself the best words and then I give my employer what comes after.

Well done.

All right, I'm gonna do a quick little round because I haven't done this forever and you and I have such a great chemistry.

Before we wrap, I want to do five rapid fire questions.

Some of them have been touched on.

Okay.

Some of them had not.

It's the first thing that pops into your head.

Okay.

Plot first or character first character.

The book that made you want to become a writer, it by Stephen King is a good one.

Your ideal writing fuel.

Coffee, Tea, wine or chaos?

Coffee with some chaos.

I'll have a coffee with the side of chaos.

Please, please.

All right.

Favorite weapon in a thriller?

Psychological manipulation or a good old fashioned gun?

Psychological manipulation.

And we all knew that one.

Right.

And fog or fury?

Which one best describes your writing style?

More fury.

Yeah.

Fury.

Yeah.

Back to the horoscope.

In this horror skate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I always close with one question.

I'm going to be real curious to see how it has changed in the two years.

How has it matured in the two years since we last spoke?

What is that?

Best writing advice for my listeners who want to be writers.

Put your butt in the seat.

That's it.

You gotta, you gotta be there and just every day or as close to every day as you can.

No, every day.

I can do it as I'm doing it.

Every day.

You can it every day.

Yeah.

Yep.

I feel a song coming on.

I love big books and I cannot lie.

And I cannot lie.

Well folks, once again the book is Fog and Fury.

You're going to love this one.

Go to Rachel Howel.com to learn more.

And Rachel, as always, you are one of the best.

So delightful.

Thank you so much.

I always have fun talking with you.

I did not ask but is there.

Wait a minute, you did Mist and Malice.

Another good title.

Uh huh huh.

I'm leaning into this kind of PI thing man.

I love it.

And if the same folks at Amazon, Thomas and Mercer at in charge, there's gonna be another sexy book cover in the making.

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Thank you again so much.

Thank you.

Thanks once again to Rachel Housel hall and the book Fog and Fury.

This one is a killer read folks.

If you'd like to be on the show, do me a favor and drop us a Note@the thrillerzonemail.com thethrillerzonemail.com now, not everyone could get on the show and in the spirit of transparency, I'm going to take a little bit lighter load during the summer months.

I know you're thinking but Dave, I gotta have my episode every single week.

I know, I get it.

I'm the same way.

I love to know that there's always an episode dropping.

And as you now know in season nine we're dropping our shows on Wednesdays instead of Thursdays.

But I do need.

Daddy needs a little bit of a break.

Daddy wants to enjoy his summer.

He has burned through the last four, three summers and he wants a little bit of time off, if you know what I'm saying.

So if you don't get a show every single week, bear with me.

I'm trying to get some vacation myself too.

But if you'd like to get in touch the thrillerzonemail.com of course you can always reach us at the thrillerzone.com that's right, your one stop shop for everything, thrillers.

I mean if you're, if you're enjoying thrillers, whether it's fiction, television, film, this is the place.

We've been voted your number one thriller podcast in the world, and we have to work hard to keep it that way.

So thank you for your patience while I take a little bit of time off throughout the summer.

And of course, we'll always try to fit in everyone we possibly can.

So until next time, I'm your host, Dave Temple.

Thank you so much for being there.

Thank you so much for supporting us.

And I'll see you next time for another edition of the Thriller Zone, your number one podcast for stories that thrill the Thriller Zone.