Dear Listener, is polyamory just cheating with extra steps? If you've ever wondered what actually distinguishes ethical non-monogamy from infidelity—or if you're thinking about opening your relationship and want to do it right—this episode is for you.

Maybe you're curious about ENM but nervous about what it could do to your relationship. Maybe you're already practicing ethical non-monogamy and navigating a shift—adding a new partner, one of you wanting to close back up, or renegotiating agreements that no longer fit. Whether you're just getting started or deep in the complexity of polyamory, we've got you covered.

This is the final episode in our Managing Thirds series. "Thirds" are people, things, or activities outside your couple bubble that can threaten—or enrich—your relationship's safety and security. And when it comes to ENM, there are a lot of thirds to manage—which is why doing this well requires intention.

We're joined by Relationship Center therapist Nicole Penrod, AMFT, who specializes in supporting couples through transitions like this one. Nicole breaks down what actually distinguishes ENM from cheating, and explains why opening a relationship—or changing how you're open—will intensify whatever already exists between you, for better and for worse.

We walk through what ENM relationships need to function well: knowing your strengths and weaknesses as a couple, getting clear on your why, building tools to navigate surprises as they arise, and managing big feelings like jealousy. Nicole introduces practical frameworks, including how to create a "container for experimentation" and the RADAR check-in—a structured conversation for staying connected through change. We even do a mini roleplay so you can hear what it sounds like in action.

If you want to explore or evolve your ENM relationship in a way that strengthens rather than strains your connection, this episode was made just for you.

Key Takeaways

00:00 Intro

01:36 Managing Thirds Meets ENM

11:25 Agreements and Check In Tools

24:16 RADAR Check-In Framework

28:55 Mini RADAR Roleplay

40:45 Updating agreements as you go

Resources and links

Polywise: A Deeper Dive into Navigating Open Relationships by Jessica Fern and David

Multiamory podcast

Ep. 20 - Understanding Jealousy, Compersion & Attachment in Relationships

Ep. 35 - NVC for Couples: What Nonviolent Communication Is and How to Use It

Have a question or comment? Email us at [email protected]. We love hearing from you!

If you’d like to work with one of the talented clinicians on our team, go to relationshipcenter.com/apply-now to apply for a free 30-minute consultation.

To get a monthly email with our best content, go to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

If something in this episode touched you, will you share it with a friend? That helps us reach more sweet humans like you.

Lastly, we’d love it if you would leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts. And be sure to hit subscribe while you’re there so you never miss an episode!

From The Relationship Center, I'm psychotherapist, couples counselor, and

2

dating coach Jessica Engle, and this is I

Love You Too, a show about how to create

3

and sustain meaningful relationships.

4

Josh: and sustain

meaningful relationships.

5

I'm dating and relationship

coach Josh Van Vliet.

6

On today's episode, the final part of

our Managing Thirds four-part series,

7

we're gonna be talking about opening

up your relationship and beginning

8

to explore ethical non-monogamy.

9

We're so happy you're here, and please

remember that this show is not a

10

substitute for a relationship with a

licensed mental health professional

11

Hello and welcome, dear listener.

12

We are joined today by special guest

Nicole Penrod, who's gonna be helping us

13

discuss, opening up your relationship.

14

And Nicole is an associate marriage

and family therapist, a couples

15

counselor, and a dating coach

here at The Relationship Center.

16

And we're particularly excited to have

you join us today, Nic, because you

17

specialize in supporting unconventional

couples who are going through transitions,

18

and that can include anything from

new parents to queer couples who are

19

processing sexual identity shifts, and

then of course, particularly couples who

20

are opening up to ethical non-monogamy.

21

Welcome, Nic.

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We're so thrilled that

you're joining us today.

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Nicole Penrod: I'm thrilled to be here.

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Thank you so much

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Jessica: We're so excited

to have you, Nick.

26

Before we get started, if you love

our show, well, we love you too, and

27

want to be in touch between episodes.

28

To get more free dating, relationship,

and social anxiety advice, please go

29

to relationshipcenter.com/newsletter.

30

Okay, let's dive in.

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Josh: Beautiful.

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So as I mentioned, this is the,

the final part in our four-part

33

series around managing thirds.

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And if you missed any of the previous

episodes, our first one was an overview

35

of this concept, what is managing thirds?

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In our second episode, we talked

all about healing from betrayal.

37

And in our third episode, we talked

about, managing thirds around in-laws

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and family and how that relates to

our, our couple bubble, so to speak.

39

Before we dive into this one,

Jessica, will you just give us a quick

40

recap of what this managing thirds

thing is for anyone who has missed

41

anything else in the, in the series?

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Jessica: Yeah, absolutely.

43

So briefly, thirds are people,

things, activities, anything

44

really outside the couple.

45

Stan Tatkin, who's a renowned couples

therapist we talk about a lot on here,

46

teaches that thirds are among the

most common and dangerous threats to

47

a relationship's safety and security,

and thirds are everywhere, so learning

48

to manage them well is essential.

49

Mismanaged thirds are among the most

common reasons relationships end,

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which is why we really felt it was

important to have a whole series on it

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Josh: Beautiful.

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Thank you.

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And so on the topic of ethical

non-monogamy, opening up a relationship,

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Nicole, I think one of the, the very first

questions that I imagine our listener

55

might have if you're thinking about

opening up a relationship, you've maybe

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heard us talk about managing thirds.

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It's like, well, wait, isn't

ethical non-monogamy inherently

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a mismanagement of thirds?

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Like you're bringing in a third person or

maybe other-- more than one other person.

60

how does that work?

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

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So the third in this case is interesting

because it absolutely can be a person.

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It could be a human being that one of you

is dating or even both of you are dating.

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Uh, but it also can be dating in general,

the process of dating, going on dates.

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It can be sex.

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It can be your relationship

with relationships.

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Attachment is gonna come up in here,

so there are actually quite a few

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thirds to manage, and that's gonna be

the case in any kind of relationship.

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so if someone is secretly dating

a third person on the side, that

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would be a mismanagement of thirds.

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It would also be perhaps unethical

non-monogamy or, as we call it, cheating.

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Uh, in ethical non-monogamy, really

the goal as we're looking at open

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relationships is just to understand how

do we do this in a way that everyone

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feels as good as they can and honor our

values as a couple and as individuals?

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Josh: Beautiful.

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just with any other third, right?

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Whether it's pickleball

or, or dating, right?

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There's a way to manage that third well

so that the relationship, thrives, and

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there's a way to mismanage that third if

someone is playing pickleball instead of

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seeing their partner, and their partner

is feeling jealous about pickleball.

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It's in, in some ways no different

than if you are dating and you're

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not managing that well with,

with your current relationship.

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So then I'd love to hear you talk

a little bit about, from this lens

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of m- of managing thirds, right?

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If, if dating, if non-monogamy, if

other people are just another third to

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manage, what do you need to function

well if you're opening up your

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relationship, looking at it through

the lens of managing thirds well?

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Nicole Penrod: So a lot of the times my

impression of a couple who comes to me and

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says, "We want to open our relationship,

but we want some kind of support.

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Either we've tried in the past and it

didn't work, or we know that we don't

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have the information or knowledge we

need to do this in a way that feels

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good," is opening a relationship

is going to intensify a lot of what

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exists already in your relationship.

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In some cases, that's gonna be awesome.

95

If we're both people who are like, "Oh,

we don't love the relationship escalator.

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We're not super interested in

following milestones," yeah,

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opening the relationship is kind

of curb stomping those ideas in

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that moment and giving you freedom.

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So if freedom is a major value, that

might be intensified then by this process.

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At the same time, if there are certain

things we struggle to talk about

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because we find them triggering or

activating and that gets in the way

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of completing a conversation, that

is going to get majorly intensified

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by the addition of other people.

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If there's attachment trauma that

hasn't been addressed or worked

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through, especially worked on within

the relationship, that's gonna be

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intensified by the introduction of

dating, of sex, of other people.

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So I always tell folks really early

on, I wanna know about what is and is

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not functioning in the relationship as

it exists before we jump into what are

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the 10 best practices for opening your

relationship, because those are gonna

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look different for every single person.

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That's part of the point, is that we

are setting aside expectations and doing

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something that works for us specifically.

113

It's the joy and it's

also part of the struggle.

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Josh: So do you need to have a

perfectly functioning relationship

115

before you open your relationship then?

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If like, if you're gonna be intensifying

the places where you're struggling

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already, is it like, don't open your

relationship if you're struggling?

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Nicole Penrod: No.

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And I think there's a little bit of

a caveat there because, if you're

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already struggling and you're opening

the relationship with the intention

121

of that being a thing that saves

the relationship, I just don't see

122

a lot of success when that happens.

123

These are the false starts

that people get into.

124

That said, it's-- I think it's the same

question just in a different lens as

125

if you're single and you don't have

all your stuff worked out, and then

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you get into a relationship, should

you just not get into a relationship?

127

Because yeah, your attachment stuff, your

background, it's all gonna get activated.

128

It's more about how you show

up when that's happening

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Jessica: that's really helpful.

130

I think that I have really seen

messaging out there just, just as we

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see messaging with dating, like you're

saying of like, "You must heal yourself

132

before you get into a relationship."

133

I feel like I have really seen content

that's basically like, "You better

134

not open your relationship if there's

anything that is, is unresolved,"

135

and that is absolutely unrealistic.

136

So I really appreciate the,

the delineation you're making.

137

If you're doing it to save the

relationship, that's a whole other

138

level than just accepting, yeah,

we, we have some things to work on.

139

and I imagine you can tell us maybe

it is that this process is actually

140

an opportunity to, to really look at

those things, uh, and, and get some

141

Nicole Penrod: Absolutely.

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Yeah, I think with any opportunity to

push yourself, it is going to introduce

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some of the most, uh, I think relationally

activating things into the picture.

144

If you're someone who has like an

abandonment wound and you open a

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relationship and your partner gets

really into this other person, oh baby,

146

you're gonna have a lot to talk about

with your therapist and your journal.

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and that's not inherently a bad thing.

148

like I said, it intensifies these pieces,

but it just shows them to you intensely.

149

It's not necessarily going to create

problems unless we fall into the same

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patterns that might have already been

creating problems, just smaller ones

151

or ones that were easier to gloss over.

152

Josh: I wonder if you could give

us an example of, of what you're

153

talking about here where, like, a

challenge in a relationship that

154

gets intensified and what it might

look like if it's not managed well.

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah, let's say that

there is a couple who have been

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living together for a long time.

157

They're partnered long-term, and one

of the things that comes up semi-often

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in their relationship is an unequal,

division of how they manage finances.

159

So one partner doesn't wanna look

at it, has some stuff about money

160

in their background, not super

interested in being involved.

161

The other partner may be kind

of anxious about money and

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really, really is on top of it.

163

This maybe only comes up between the

two of them a couple times a year.

164

Maybe one time there's this, like, big

expenditure that they both really wanna go

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on this vacation, but they're nervous to

talk about it because they have different

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ideas and they know this about money.

167

And the other time maybe it's around

tax season where they're, like, going

168

through paperwork and it's like,

"Ugh, I really didn't wanna see this."

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That's an issue.

170

Again, something that comes up twice

a year is gonna feel pretty normal

171

in a relationship, and maybe they

work through it, maybe they don't.

172

Now we open a relationship and

there might be a question of, "Hey,

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I met this really cool person.

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We've been dating for a bit.

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They're moving to a city a few hours away.

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I really wanna go fly to see them.

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What fund is that coming out of?

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Is that coming out of our shared money

because we've pooled our finances

179

and you don't look at finances?

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Is that coming out of my specific

fund that I have to create?

181

How much money are we spending on

dates and going out with people?

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How much money do we have to spend?"

183

All of a sudden this becomes an issue

that touches a lot more points of

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their lives, and if they never worked

on it before, it's going to rise up

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as an issue that they actually need to

find a way to be able to work through.

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And when I say that, I don't

mean resolve your issues about

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money and have a perfect system.

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An open relationship kind of by

nature is going to be a moving target.

189

So it's not did we talk about it

correctly, it's do we know how to talk

190

about it in a way that lets us manage

situations as they arise in a healthy way?

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Josh: That makes so much sense.

192

And if they don't know how to talk

about it well, what happens typically?

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Nicole Penrod: The fights become about

a lot of different things, I have found.

194

if there's a real fear of talking about

money, for example, in this case, that

195

fight might start with, "You're spending

way too much time with this person

196

and you're not prioritizing me," or,

"You're doing this thing behind my back.

197

Why did you buy that plane ticket?"

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Well, maybe I was the one who

didn't wanna know about any of

199

the expenditures, but now I'm mad.

200

And so with either some support

or a greater ability to go deep

201

together, we might be able to

figure out where that came from.

202

But that's kind of one example

of what that can look like.

203

Uh, another one is a lot of people

actually don't quite get off the

204

ground with open relationships because

they get stalled out at agreements.

205

So in a lot of cases, not all, but

in a lot of cases, people will form

206

agreements about what they want dating

to look like for them as a couple.

207

Is it that I never wanna meet your

partners, or I always wanna meet your

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partners, or in certain situations?

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What do we wanna do about money?

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Which is one that I think a lot of

people just don't think about that much.

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in terms of sex, what practices do

we feel good about doing with other

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people outside of the relationship?

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STI testing, safer sex.

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What are the expectations there?

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Are there certain rituals or

routines that belong just to us?

216

Any of these can bring up something.

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And so when there's unresolved stuff from

the past, I find that some people just

218

don't make it through the agreement stage.

219

So either they go, "We're not

gonna open the relationship.

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That's too hard.

221

We keep getting stuck."

222

They come to maybe therapy and say,

"Hi, we've been trying to do this

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for a long time, but we need help.

224

We're really stuck."

225

Or they say, "Well, you know what?

226

Let's just figure it out as we go.

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Maybe we'll have more information

once we actually see what

228

it's like with a person."

229

That in and of itself is actually not even

the worst strategy as long as there's a

230

plan to come back around to these things.

231

But if the reason we're opening early is

because we actually couldn't get through

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the conversation, it's a little iffy

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Josh: yeah, sounds dicey.

234

then there's a lot of room for, "Well,

you did this thing that I don't like."

235

"Well, we never had an agreement

about it," or, "We had an agreement,

236

but I had a different idea what

that agreement meant than you did."

237

Nicole Penrod: And now there's another

person involved, so do we change

238

it and I tell you, "Go tell that

person that you can't do that anymore

239

because I actually don't like it"?

240

Much more complicated.

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Josh: Right.

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And then it's like, "Well,

I don't wanna do that.

243

That feels crappy to that person."

244

And oh yeah, I can, I can

see it getting sticky fast.

245

So then what, what's the

flip side of this then?

246

what does it look like when it goes

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Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

248

So in a lot of cases where I see

success, the first thing really

249

is couples being on the same page

about what's important to them.

250

Do we have a good why

for why we're doing this?

251

And this is the case, yeah, with couples

who wanna open up their relationship.

252

It's also the case with, people who

maybe are already in an open relationship

253

and are changing something about it.

254

Maybe only one partner was dating and

now a second partner wants to date, or

255

we were both dating and now it's like,

maybe I have room for another partner

256

on top of these two I already have.

257

These changes are all gonna kick stuff up.

258

If we have a really solid sense of why

we're making the decision we're making,

259

I think that is a great foundation.

260

And not just because it sounds fun

or because it's important to us.

261

Why?

262

What are the values at play?

263

What do we hope to gain or get from this?

264

one of the most beautiful why's I

heard in my practice was someone

265

saying that they feel like the way

they grow as a person is by bouncing

266

their personality off of other people.

267

Within a depth context,

dating is one way to do that.

268

It's not the only way.

269

But they were finding that they were

showing up better and better and

270

better in the primary relationship.

271

For them, it was a

little more hierarchical.

272

Because they were out kind of

casually dating, meeting people, and

273

getting to expand their worldview.

274

When everybody's on board

with that, I think it makes

275

a lot of other things easier.

276

The other piece is, do we know

our weaknesses as a couple?

277

You are never going to be perfect.

278

There's always gonna be stuff that

kicks things up, that creates conflict.

279

Do we know what those things are?

280

And if we do, do we

have ways to manage it?

281

If I know that money's an issue, maybe

before we even start opening up the

282

relationship, we make sure to spend

a lot of time talking about that.

283

And if we don't know how to do

it, we get some kind of support.

284

We go to therapy.

285

We get a money coach or a financial,

uh, like analyst or something

286

to look at our stuff and help us

understand what we need to do.

287

We do some planning for the future.

288

We set aside a fund for this.

289

We create guardrails so that when

inevitably something surprises

290

us, we're not completely at sea.

291

We're like creating scaffolding and

support for ourselves, and to me, that's

292

one of the most important things you

can do to really create a thriving

293

relationship that might involve multiple

partners in multiple directions.

294

Jessica: I'm thinking about the

episode that we did, with the focus on

295

vision and purpose, and how that could

probably be useful in this process.

296

And I'm wondering what if you develop a,

a why, and a vision, and then you bring

297

in one, two, three other partners, a-

and then the collective vision shifts?

298

I'm imagining, well, you know,

this is true in relationships

299

with just two people.

300

You do wanna keep revisiting it.

301

But I'm just wondering, uh, do you then

advise sort of like the larger, collective

302

group visioning and having a why as well?

303

Nicole Penrod: It so

depends on the structure.

304

So this is why I think it's hard to

speak to like kind of like long-term

305

polyamory ethical non-monogamy because

it is an ever-changing beast and

306

people have such different ideas.

307

Like for some people, ethical

non-monogamy is just swinging.

308

The two of us go to events, we

pair off with people, we have

309

sex that night and we go home.

310

We're not dating people,

we're not in relationship with

311

these people beyond one night.

312

For other people, it's like all of

us are in this like polycule together

313

and we're all dating each other.

314

That's really hard to maintain

long term, by the way.

315

I think people think it's

more common than it is.

316

The most common, uh, mode I see is a

couple that's been together for a while,

317

one or both partners are dating outside of

the relationship, and those relationships

318

either are really casual or they are

long-term relationships where one partner

319

might have like the partner they came

to therapy with and another partner long

320

term, and maybe the two metamors, in

this case is the term we would use, maybe

321

they have some kind of a relationship

with each other and maybe they don't.

322

And that relationship could be friendship,

it could be romantic, it could be

323

just sexual, it could be nothing.

324

It really varies.

325

It could be cohabitation.

326

I have seen that before, where

they live together but they're like

327

kind of buddies, and that's cool.

328

depending on what the vision

is and how it's changing, if

329

people are living together, yeah,

probably work that out together.

330

What are we doing and why?

331

Uh, but the question of who the we

is here I think is really important

332

because in certain cases, if I'm

dating someone on the side and they

333

don't even know my other partner, that

might be a separate relationship for

334

us to manage if our why has changed.

335

If we're dating each other initially

because we were just wanted to have fun

336

and it was casual and then it became more

serious, we need to talk with each other

337

about what that means to us, and that

might also impact my other relationship.

338

It might not.

339

But we might not all three need

to sit down and figure this thing

340

out unless it's something that is

going to affect all three of us.

341

And maybe my other partner

has another partner.

342

So there's a lot of possibilities here.

343

Uh, but my, my expectation for

people would be your individual

344

why needs to feel really solid.

345

Your why within each individual

relationship you're in needs to

346

feel really solid and coherent.

347

And if those whys are sometimes at

odds with each other, or if people

348

are in a situation where they are

directly impacting one another within

349

a constellation, that's when we bring

people together and say, "I don't know.

350

Let's have like our

non-monogamy visioning party."

351

That's very Berkeley.

352

Jessica: It needs vision boards, Nick.

353

Josh: What I'm getting so far for folks

who are considering opening up their

354

relationship or in that process, first

bring to light with support what are

355

the places where we're strong, what

are the places where we're already

356

maybe struggling so that we can make a

plan for how to be with those because

357

this transition will amplify those

things, both the good and the bad or

358

the, the positive and the challenging.

359

And, and also be really clear

about why are we doing this?

360

Why am I doing this?

361

Why are you doing this?

362

Why are we doing this together?

363

so that we can go in and, and then make

agreements and navigate all of those

364

pieces very thoughtfully based on what's

really important to us about this.

365

Do you have ways that you help people

figure out how to navigate that and

366

the kind of as it develops and changes?

367

Nicole Penrod: Yes.

368

Yeah.

369

It's one of my favorite things to talk

about with people because there are

370

specific things that we can put into

place that make such a difference.

371

Like I said, non-monogamy

is such a moving target.

372

New people get introduced to

relationships, feelings change, people

373

move to different states or countries,

374

. New hobbies develop.

375

Like, things are always going to

impact the state of your relationship.

376

So we need to have ways to

touch base repeatedly because

377

again, things will change.

378

And this is also true in monogamy.

379

But for some reason in monogamy we don't

expect things to change, or we expect

380

them to only change in certain ways.

381

Okay, we'll plan to check in with each

other when we have a baby and we know that

382

that's gonna really impact us, or we'll

check in with each other when XYZ happens.

383

With non-monogamy we kind of

have to do it consistently One

384

way that I like to recommend

comes out of Jessica Fern's work.

385

The book Polywise is actually one

of my favorite starting places

386

for folks who wanna learn more

about non-monogamy, polyamory.

387

It's a really great introduction.

388

She's more famous, I think, for

Polysecure, which is about attachment.

389

Great book.

390

Polywise is a better 101.

391

Hot take from me.

392

So that one's great, and the idea that

comes out of it is the idea of creating

393

a container for experimentation.

394

So her thought basically is, hey, if

you know that you want to open your

395

relationship, but you're not 100%

sure what you want the agreements

396

to be yet because you haven't been

in an open relationship, and you can

397

guess, but you're not sure how you're

gonna feel, that's normal and human,

398

and we need a way to manage that.

399

One thing you can do is create a length

of time, let's say the length of time is a

400

month, wherein you are going to experiment

with an aspect of an open relationship.

401

Maybe every week for a month we're

gonna go to a non-monogamy polyamory

402

meetup and just talk to people,

meet people, learn about poly

403

and what we may or may not like.

404

Maybe on one of them we'll actually plan

to, like, try and hook up with someone a

405

little bit as a couple or individually.

406

There's, like, a safe container there.

407

But also within the container we've

created, we have consistency for

408

four weeks, and we might specifically

say every week after the event we're

409

going to take a day or two to process

individually, and then we're gonna

410

come back together, let's say Sunday

evening, and talk about how we felt.

411

Did we like it?

412

Was it fun?

413

What did we want to, like,

steal from what people said and

414

apply to our own relationship?

415

What are we less interested in?

416

And at the end we use that

information and we talk to each

417

other about what we wanna do with it.

418

Okay.

419

So that felt great.

420

Maybe we wanna continue doing

this and one or both of us wants

421

to, like, get on a dating app.

422

I don't know.

423

Download Feeld, see what's out there.

424

Hang out with people.

425

Or maybe we want to go to a swingers

night and, like, really intentionally

426

go with the intention of hooking up.

427

Maybe we want to go to a sex party

or a kink club and go try that out

428

together or individually and have

the person tell us how it went, but

429

we're gonna have more information.

430

Another version of this could be

we're both going to, like, swipe on

431

dating apps for a month and check

in at two weeks and say, "Is this

432

feeling how we expected it to?

433

What do we wanna talk to each other about?

434

Any adjustments we need or want to

make to our plans or agreements here?"

435

Okay, great.

436

At the end of a month now we're

talking again about exactly what we

437

liked and what we would wanna continue

with and what we didn't like and what

438

we might not wanna continue with.

439

The only risk here, and I tell people

about this, is, um, if you date for a

440

month and you find someone you really

like, and then at the end of a month your

441

partner says, "Oh, this isn't for me."

442

Now you have a person to manage.

443

So that's why I tend to, like, really

contain specific instances that are

444

opportunities for learning without

the pressure of I'm dating someone now

445

So that's one example that I really like.

446

Um, you can also set mini experiments

for yourselves in other aspects,

447

maybe related to non-monogamy.

448

We're each going to, like, read a

couple of books and listen to a podcast

449

episode and then come back together.

450

And for a month we're just gonna, like,

really immerse ourselves in this and

451

then decide, is this what we wanna do?

452

The other thing that I really like,

this comes from the Multiamory podcast,

453

which is one of my favorite resources

for ethical non-monogamy and polyamory.

454

They have a million episodes.

455

My hot tip is to go to their website

and they have, like, a curated,

456

these are our top ones for people

who are new to this whole world.

457

Start there.

458

But they came up with the radar agreement

or the radar conversation technically.

459

And this is a conversation that

you can have at an interval

460

that makes sense for you.

461

I think they initially recommend weekly.

462

This can be something that you

do weekly or every couple of

463

weeks, once a month, whatever.

464

Figure out what works for you.

465

And the radar acronym stands for review.

466

So this is when you sit down

with your partner and review the

467

past whatever period of time.

468

How did it go?

469

Uh, look at your calendars

potentially and see what happened.

470

Non-monogamy is a lot of calendaring.

471

So how did that feel?

472

Was time compressed?

473

Was it spacious?

474

Did you get time with everyone

that you wanted to get time with?

475

Um, we're not discussing, like,

processing of feelings yet in this part.

476

It's just a matter of fact review

of what were the things that

477

happened since we last talked?

478

The first A is agree the agenda.

479

What do we wanna talk about today?

480

What's important?

481

Um, they have recommendations of a lot of

different items that you can talk about.

482

There's quality time, sex, health,

other partners, fights or arguments,

483

money, work projects, travel,

family, household, miscellaneous.

484

Take whatever of that feels

like it works for you.

485

These do not have to be three-hour

conversations once a week.

486

But identify what feels important

to talk about this time around that

487

I think deserves some air time.

488

And again, this can be just about us.

489

It can also be about the

broader constellation.

490

But the idea of the radar check-in

is to make sure that you and I

491

are okay, and that we feel good,

and that anything that needs to

492

be talked about gets talked about.

493

The D is for discuss.

494

This one I don't think

needs a lot of introduction.

495

Talk about the things that

you plan to talk about.

496

This should be the meat of the check-in.

497

The second A is for action points.

498

Is there anything that we

would like to do or try?

499

This would be a great time to develop a

container for an experiment, for example.

500

or if we talked about quality time and we

realized we were both really missing each

501

other, okay, is there a specific plan that

we have for spending more time together?

502

How are we gonna protect that time?

503

Not every topic will necessarily

need an action item, but the ones

504

that do, it's a great place to do it.

505

And the last R, I love

this, is for reconnect.

506

So we did all this.

507

It was kind of business-y potentially.

508

Maybe one of us cried.

509

We had a hard conversation, or maybe

we just, like, skated through it.

510

The R at the end is for really coming back

into our relationship and, like, settling

511

back into it in a way that feels good.

512

For some people, this

looks like a date night.

513

Other people will, like, go have

sex after this conversation.

514

Rock on.

515

for other people, it might look like

appreciations for each other and sharing

516

those or cooking a meal together.

517

Whatever you know feels really

good and safe for your relationship

518

is a great landing place after

some of these conversations.

519

So, I also tell people it does

not have to be every single one

520

of these steps every single time.

521

You can adjust it how you like.

522

Take the principles and make

it work for your relationship.

523

But those are two a little bit

long-winded ways to make sure that

524

you have opportunities to really

have structure because we don't have

525

the basic relationship milestones.

526

It's not like, oh, we're,

like, a few months in.

527

Should I say I love you?

528

Like, the rules are out the window,

so we have to create some so that

529

there's structure to fall back on.

530

Josh: I think that's brilliant.

531

And I, I wanna highlight what you're

naming about if you've never done this

532

before, it's very likely you don't know

how you're gonna feel when you do it.

533

Because humans are notoriously

bad at predicting how we're gonna

534

feel in different situations.

535

and so it's brilliant to create a

structure around how do we check in,

536

how do we experiment, how do we try

things in safe, small, digestible ways,

537

and then come back and see, did this

feel how I thought it was gonna feel?

538

What I like, what, what didn't I like?

539

You know, all these different pieces.

540

I, I love it, and I love that having this

very clear structure for how we might

541

have some of those review conversations

or reconnection conversations,

542

processing what happened, what worked

well, what didn't work well, et cetera.

543

beautiful

544

Jessica: Yeah.

545

plus one to all that, and I'm

wondering if it would be useful to do

546

a radar, a mini radar, uh, example,

547

Nicole Penrod: oh,

548

Josh: Let's try it out

549

Jessica: All right.

550

So in this, it'll be Josh

and I, coming to you, Nick.

551

And let's say we listened to this podcast,

and we even created a little container,

552

for exploring opening our relationship.

553

And what was the container, Josh?

554

Josh: we, went and listened to podcasts

about ethical non-monogamy and read,

555

each read a book- Yeah … and came back

556

Jessica: That felt like within reach.

557

Uh, and then we were like,

"Okay, we wanna have this radar

558

conversation, but we need Nick."

559

And so we hire you, we come in.

560

will you please lead us?

561

Nicole Penrod: So the first R is review.

562

Within this container, what were

some of the events that happened?

563

You read books, you listened to podcasts.

564

Anything else relevant to this topic?

565

Did you meet someone?

566

Did you have an argument or disagreement

or a really good conversation about it?

567

What were the events that are

relevant to this conversation?

568

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, you talked

with your friend, I forget her name,

569

but she's in the open relationship

community, and you, like, got

570

the down low from her, right?

571

Josh: Sally.

572

Jessica: Yes, Sally.

573

Thank you.

574

Thank you.

575

and we, we had a good conversation

about it, like the things that were

576

really kind of inspiring, and we also

had, like, some tense conversations.

577

I think both of us, like,

got kinda triggered by

578

Josh: I got a little gnarly.

579

Jessica: Got a little gnarly.

580

Yeah, Josh in particular

got a little gnarly.

581

which makes sense.

582

This is like, you know,

activating on a lot of levels.

583

Um, yeah.

584

Those are the main things I can think of.

585

Josh: Yeah.

586

we both read polywise.

587

and I found a, a poly meetup that we

could potentially go to if we wanted to.

588

Jessica: Oh, you did?

589

Okay,

590

Nicole Penrod: Great.

591

That leads us really well

into creating the agenda.

592

What are the topics that feel

important to talk about today?

593

So we absolutely can add

that meetup to the agenda of

594

things to potentially discuss.

595

If we want to process any of

those tense conversations,

596

that can totally come up here.

597

I can be supportive of that as well,

'cause we're all here together.

598

Uh, any wins that we might wanna

celebrate, and we can also look at, uh,

599

what you'd like to do with the information

that you got in the container, right?

600

You had some conversations

at the end of it now here.

601

Yeah, what feels important to talk about?

602

I gave you some items.

603

What am I missing?

604

Jessica: Yeah, I definitely

wanna talk about, like,

605

wha-what's the next container.

606

Um, I think it'd be good to talk

briefly about, like, how to support one

607

another when we get a little gnarly.

608

Uh, and maybe next steps with

that meetup that might be

609

related to the next container

610

Josh: Mm-hmm.

611

Um, yeah, That all sounds good.

612

Nicole Penrod: Awesome.

613

So this time around, I've

written those down for you.

614

I will encourage you to do that on your

own in the future if you have one of these

615

conversations outside of these sessions.

616

That takes us into discussion.

617

So we'll pick one of these to start with,

and we'll get a little bit more into the

618

weeds of what you wanna say to each other.

619

And I'll remind you, too, in these

moments, really great to stick with

620

your I statements, connect about what

you're feeling, lead with your own

621

personal experience, all of those

tools that we talk about that are gonna

622

be supportive, really helpful here.

623

And recall as we're going through it

that there's going to be some amount

624

of, uh, expectation about what a

relationship should look like that

625

is going to enter the conversation.

626

We can take that or leave it.

627

Some expectations we like, some we don't.

628

I will be happy to point out here and

there where I hear the more normative

629

pieces coming in, and then we can decide

together, looking at it clearly, if

630

that's something that we really wanna

hold onto or let go of, and if so, how

631

Jessica: Cool Start

632

Josh: Great.

633

Uh,

634

Well, one of the things that,

came up for me is I was realizing

635

it's hard for me to imagine you

with other people without me there

636

Jessica: Mm.

637

Josh: That felt like a lot Yeah Mm-hmm

638

Jessica: Does it feel

tolerable if you are there?

639

Josh: More so?

640

Maybe.

641

Maybe.

642

That's part of where I'm like, I

don't know how, w- I'm gonna feel.

643

Yeah.

644

Yeah.

645

Jessica: yeah.

646

Okay, okay.

647

Nicole Penrod: in a real

session where we have a lot of

648

Jessica: Yeah

649

Nicole Penrod: I would be asking

Josh, "Where is that coming from?

650

What is that feeling?"

651

Right?

652

It's hard.

653

What are the actual emotions that come up?

654

What is alive for you in this moment

when it comes to maybe memories

655

or particular fears or concerns?

656

This is one of those pieces that may

or may not be a normative thing that

657

we wanna hold onto or let go of, right?

658

we should do everything together maybe

is counter to this idea of we also

659

really want an open relationship.

660

However, I really wanna experience

this with you feels to me like

661

a much different launching pad.

662

So I would wanna dive in deeper and

understand and encourage you both to

663

dive in on that and see like where's,

where is that coming from, and how

664

could it be useful for us to understand

ourselves and each other better so that

665

we can build off of that foundation?

666

Jessica: Well, and let's say that we

had that conversation- Mm-hmm … and

667

where we landed was, w- where, where

does that come from briefly for you?

668

Josh: That comes from my

fear of being abandoned

669

Jessica: Okay.

670

Okay.

671

And so what, what would

we do with that, Nick?

672

Nicole Penrod: So that would be, I think,

a great place to both create some room

673

for Josh to spend time with that fear.

674

That can happen in our work, that

can happen in individual therapy,

675

that can happen in, like, journaling.

676

It can happen in

conversations with friends.

677

What is that, and how do I potentially,

like, set myself free from it?

678

Underneath that, there might still

be a desire to do this together

679

and to not separate all that much.

680

That's okay.

681

But if we're free from the fear, or

at least slightly released from the

682

pressure of the fear or the obligation

of the fear to soothe it, we're

683

gonna get more information about

what we actually would like to do.

684

So in this case, let's say, right, okay,

there's, there's that fear of abandonment.

685

We talk about it a little bit further,

and the agreement is this takes us

686

into our next A, an action item that

Josh is going to bring it to individual

687

therapy for a session and talk to his

individual therapist about that fear

688

that came up while I was talking to

Jessica about potentially opening our

689

relationship, and it's because X, Y, Z,

and we're really diving deep into it.

690

Maybe you come out of that session with

some tools or some strategies or even,

691

like, one idea about how you can show

up in this context in a way that helps

692

you feel more supported and less afraid.

693

So that's one action

item that could come out.

694

Another action item that could come

out could be, okay, in our next

695

container while you're working through

that, we attend things together With

696

the intention of seeing both how

that feels as the fear abates, but

697

also how that feels for Jessica.

698

Because maybe Jessica actually really

wanted to do some stuff on her own

699

Josh: Mm-hmm.

700

Jessica: Yeah.

701

Yeah, I was gonna say, and I wonder,

I imagine this, this might be a

702

common dynamic 'cause it is in,

uh, monogamous couples as well.

703

If I were to come in and say, "Oh,

well, I have a fear of being consumed

704

here, and I have a fear of my freedom

being limited," um, what do we do

705

with that,

706

Nick?

707

Nicole Penrod: in these conversations.

708

So it's actually not that dissimilar of

a process to what I just said with Josh.

709

Where does that fear come from?

710

What is the concern about being consumed?

711

And are there steps that you can take to

understand it better so that if we get

712

to step away from that, we learn more

about what's underneath, which might

713

be also I just really value my freedom

and I'm excited and energized by the

714

idea of getting to step out and date

outside of this committed relationship.

715

It could also be I feel like I'm drowning

in this relationship and dating outside

716

of it is a way to reclaim myself.

717

That starts to pull us back towards is

this a way to save the relationship when

718

actually it's something inside that we're

trying to bring in a third to, like, fix.

719

Jessica: Beautiful.

720

And so, uh, let's say we have that

conversation and where I land is, you

721

know, for me, it really feels like this

comes from growing up in a family where I

722

was not given, uh, a lot of freedom, and I

was criticized and controlled quite a bit.

723

Uh, it's not actually

about the relationship.

724

Josh is very, willing to

support me in my freedom.

725

Uh, so i- is it a similar thing?

726

Maybe my action item is going to my

individual therapist to talk about

727

kinda this fear of being consumed

728

Nicole Penrod: Yeah, I could also see

there being a piece of like couples

729

therapy homework to make a list of

times in your day-to-day life where you

730

could assert freedom, individuality,

independence in a way that feels good

731

for you and that is conscious of the

potential triggering of Josh's stuff.

732

We don't tiptoe around each

other's triggers, but we do

733

need to be aware of them.

734

And so maybe it's a journey that you two

go on together where it's, "Okay, wait,

735

we really activate each other in this way.

736

Maybe I have something to learn from you

and you have something to learn from me."

737

'Cause if we walk this path together

without being codependent and consuming

738

each other, we might come out the

other side stronger, even if the

739

fear is like, "Oh my gosh, you are

going to bring out the worst in me."

740

We're kind of opposite magnets

sometimes, especially when it comes

741

to attachment or fears like this.

742

Josh: Beautiful.

743

So that, would that bring

us then to the final

744

Nicole Penrod: So we've had

this big, heavy conversation

745

with a lot of stuff brought in.

746

We've hit some of the discussion points.

747

We might not even have finished

all of them, and that's okay.

748

The goal is to get to what

feels the most important.

749

Now that we've done that, we have our

action items, we have our plans, we might

750

be a little wrung out, now we reconnect.

751

So I would ask you, what is a ritual

that feels really meaningful to you both

752

that is also probably a little bit lower

effort and lower lift, because we just

753

had potentially a draining conversation,

that can feel good to you and that doesn't

754

require things to be resolved in some

way to connect you both to each other?

755

Do you have a sense of

what that could look like?

756

Josh: Yeah, I mean, we love

watching NASCAR together

757

Jessica: Absolutely.

758

We love watching NASCAR together,

uh, and, you know, snuggling up

759

Josh: Mm-hmm.

760

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

761

So you've done the thing, throw on a

race, hang out together on the couch,

762

and like really with presence, enjoy each

other and enjoy the fact that, okay, we

763

just went through that whole situation

with the purpose of staying connected

764

and staying strong with each other

and not kicking the can down the road.

765

And that would be a radar conversation

766

Josh: Beautiful

767

Jessica: Amazing.

768

It's not amazing?

769

Josh: That example

770

Jessica: I love the world in which,

uh, a very psychologically aware

771

couple doing this work is like, "And

now we're gonna go watch NASCAR."

772

They're all kinda.

773

They really are.

774

They really are.

775

Josh: Beautiful.

776

And so I imagine, uh, maybe I can't

remember if we-- you, you mentioned this

777

directly or not, but a part of these

radar conversations or these various

778

kinds of check-ins, right, is where, where

we might be crafting new agreements or

779

updating our agreements along the way.

780

Nicole Penrod: totally

781

Josh: Is there anything that you

wanna say about how we'd go about

782

adjusting our agreements as we go with

783

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

784

So I always tell people to, when

you're starting to form an agreement,

785

say what you wanna say in pencil

and then adjust it, because we can

786

really hear agreements as demands.

787

If somebody says, "Oh, like, I would

really like to be present while this

788

stuff is happening," the other partner

who maybe holds this really intense hope

789

of striking out and trying things and

being adventurous might hear, "You're

790

not allowed to do this without me."

791

But maybe I was just

saying, "I don't know.

792

I'm kind of nervous."

793

So write in pencil, hear each other in

pencil, have a whole conversation before

794

we even touch what is the agreement.

795

I really love non-violent

communication for this.

796

Can we dive into the needs and negotiate

requests rather than creating demands?

797

There might be hard lines.

798

There might be boundaries that need to

show up, and that's just what it is.

799

That's okay.

800

But whenever possible, can we

prioritize the need underneath as

801

opposed to the specific action that

we need someone to do or not do?

802

Because that's gonna make it a lot

easier to update them in a way that

803

feels good for us in the future.

804

The need isn't gonna change.

805

It might just be the execution

806

Jessica: One of the episodes that we've

recorded with you is on non-violent

807

communication 101 for couples.

808

So we got you covered, dear listener

809

Josh: I really appreciate what you're,

what you're naming here, Nick, about

810

talking in pencil, having a full

conversation before you really land on

811

the agreement, and your tools for how

you talk to each other well and take good

812

care of each other during a conversation

like nonvi- nonviolent communication.

813

Is there anything else that you wanna

talk about, uh, or mention about this

814

Nicole Penrod: Yeah.

815

I think in, especially in the context

of managing thirds, I just wanna

816

shout out, another resource because

one thing that comes up a lot in

817

these conversations is jealousy.

818

The fear of jealousy, the

presence of jealousy, the

819

obstruction that jealousy can be.

820

And one of the frames I really

like is that jealousy is an emotion

821

like any other, and emotions often

point to our needs, and they point

822

to our desires and our wishes.

823

And that framing comes from actually a

past I Love You Too episode, with a former

824

supervisor here, Julie, who is awesome.

825

And I do actually point people

to that episode quite a lot.

826

So for a deeper dive on jealousy

and non-monogamy, as well as its,

827

uh, friendlier, more pleasant

cousin compersion, I would really

828

recommend listening to that and

going into a deep dive there.

829

Josh: Wonderful.

830

I love that.

831

Well, I hope, dear listener, this

is a helpful, entree into the world

832

of opening up your relationship if

you're in that exploration right now.

833

Nick, thank you so much for joining us.

834

This has been wonderful.

835

Really appreciate everything

you've shared in this

836

Nicole Penrod: you for having me.

837

As ever, I always enjoy my time here

838

Josh: All right.

839

That's all for today.

840

You can find the show notes with links

to all the resources we mentioned in this

841

episode at relationshipcenter.com/podcast

842

Jessica: And if you have a

question or comment, email us at

843

[email protected].

844

We love hearing from you If you'd like to-

845

Josh: If you'd like to work with

one of the talented clinicians

846

on our team, including Nicole,

go to relationshipcenter.com

847

to apply for a free 30-minute consultation

848

Jessica: You can also sign up for

a monthly email of our best content

849

at relationshipcenter.com/newsletter

850

Josh: And if something in this

episode touched you, dear listener,

851

will you share it with a friend?

852

That helps us reach more

sweet humans like you

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Jessica: Lastly, we'd love it if you

would leave us a rating and review

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wherever you listen to podcasts, and

be sure to hit subscribe while you're

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there so you never miss an episode

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Josh: Until next time.

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We love you too.

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Bye.

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Woo-hoo

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. Okay, my computer's dying

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Jessica: Okay, mm.