Virgil Films founder Joe Amodei shares the hard truth: $250K is your budget ceiling, traditional marketing no longer is effective, and you must build your own audience.

Joe has distributed films from the VHS era through streaming. In this episode, he breaks down which documentary genres actually sell (true crime, health/wellness, and ones that make us feel good—not adventure docs anymore), why 90% of his acquisitions come through referrals, and what separates films that make money from films that don’t. Plus: the 2025 Oscar nominations and Joe’s surprise announcement!

DocuView Déjà Vu:

Train Dreams, 2025, 102 mins, Watch on Netflix, IMDB Link: Train Dreams (2025) ⭐ 7.5 | Drama

The Alabama Solution, 2025, 117 mins, Watch on Disney+/Hulu, HBO Max, IMDB Link: The Alabama Solution (2025) ⭐ 7.8 | Documentary

What You’ll Learn:

• The maximum budget for an indie doc that can actually recoup ($250K—tops)

• Which genres sell: true crime → health/wellness → inspirational

Why adventure/mountain climbing docs have stopped working

The 90-minute cat video compilation that sold out a 252-seat theater

• TVOD vs AVOD: when to release on Tubi vs. keeping it on paid platforms

• What successful filmmakers do differently (hint: audience building before release)

• Why traditional film marketing—print ads, TV spots, newspaper reviews—is dead

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction

03:03 Joe praises Documentary First’s growth (Ken Burns, Billy Joel doc)

04:55 Announcing Documentary First: The Deep Dive

06:50 Joe’s career: VHS through streaming, Turner, Polygram, USA Home Entertainment

08:02 Why podcasts have become essential for film discovery

15:41 The budget question: $250K maximum for indie docs

17:06 Documentary genres ranked: what sells, what doesn’t

21:40 The cat video phenomenon: 90 minutes, sold-out theater

25:23 2025 Oscar nominations discussion

31:58 What successful filmmakers do differently

41:20 Common mistakes: no homework, no identified audience, overspending

50:48 Distribution pathway: transactional → SVOD → AVOD explained

1:00:29 Joe’s surprise announcement

About Joe Amodei: Founder of Virgil Films, one of the leading independent distributors in the US. 40+ year career spanning Turner Broadcasting, Polygram, and USA Home Entertainment (Traffic, Being John Malkovich). Distributor of The Girl Who Wore Freedom. Website: Home (New)

If you’re enjoying the show, please subscribe and leave a review!

Virgil Films (@VirgilFilms) on X

Virgil Films and Entertainment

Virgil Films (@virgilfilms) • Instagram profile

Sponsor: Virgil Films http://www.virgilfilms.com/

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Hello everybody and welcome to Documentary First, a look at documentary filmmaking.

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I'm your host, Christian Taylor, and a documentary filmmaker myself.

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I'm sitting down with storytellers from all over the world in every stage of their

careers, from all walks of life who capture real life one frame at a time so we can all

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become better filmmakers.

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Now, if you're new to our show, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast if you

like what you hear by the end, of course, and follow us on all the typical social media

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channels.

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Additionally, if you're only listening to this podcast and you like to feel more like

you're in the studio with us, you can catch the show on our YouTube channel.

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All right, now on with the show.

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Today I am joined by film buff, historian, distributor, producer, filmmaker, and doting

grandfather, Joe Amodei Welcome to our show, Joe.

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oh Thank you.

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Thank you for having me.

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Yeah, it's so nice to have you.

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We have had Joe on our show several times.

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He is also a sponsor to our podcast.

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We are incredibly grateful for that.

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uh We've had him here and he is a sponsor because he happens to be my distributor.

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uh He is my distributor because uh I was referred to Joe or Joe was referred to me by

Mary.

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Oh my goodness.

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Owen, Mary Owen.

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Her mother was Donna Reed of the Donna Reed Show and it's a wonderful life if you know

her.

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And she said to me, you have to meet him.

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He is one of the good guys is what she told me.

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And boy was she right.

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You have been one of the good guys and it is why I have you back all the time.

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I just have been so grateful.

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um

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just with our relationship.

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And not only that, you just know your stuff.

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You've been in this business for a really long time, and I want you to tell people about

that.

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uh talk to people about, you know, a little bit about your history in the business.

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They can go back and hear uh long, uh you know, about you and just we've talked about your

history in the business, but give us the brief bio.

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Yes, but I want to take 30 seconds just to talk about your podcast.

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And from the very first time I was on it years ago to where it is today, it's expanded to

a point where you're now one of the major podcasts when it comes to helping filmmakers and

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guiding filmmakers across all levels of making films from pre-production through

production through what do you do after your movie is done?

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How do you find a good distributor?

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And I've also noticed that

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um Unlike me, who most people don't have a clue who I am, you're starting to get some

substantial guess.

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mean, the Billy Joel folks were absolutely phenomenal.

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I think I listened to one of those podcasts twice.

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And Ken Burns.

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I mean, this is not, you know, we're talking big time here.

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So I want to congratulate you on this podcast.

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I really want to make sure I...

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uh

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That was one of the main reasons I wanted to do this again.

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I listen, I'm a listener.

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I listen every week.

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um

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It's been a real journey.

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We've kind of found our way.

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And I was so delighted by the Susan Levy podcast because at the end, when cameras were not

rolling, uh I asked her, how can I work with you or how can I grow?

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she said, yeah, get in touch with me.

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You're a really great interviewer.

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And I just wanted to fall over.

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I couldn't believe it.

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But so it's just been I've learned a lot doing this and I do enjoy talking to filmmakers

hearing about their journeys because they're all different.

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Nobody's journey is the same.

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Everybody's is different and the industry has changed so much all over the years as well

as the podcast industry.

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You and I were talking earlier.

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I might as well announce it now.

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We have decided to do a mini podcast in between our releases.

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It's going to be called documentary first the deep dive.

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and we're gonna take something that sits with me every week and talk about it a little bit

more in depth.

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uh you know, everybody take a, you know, look out for that.

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It's gonna be really great.

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I'm looking forward to it.

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Our first one's gonna be about Jeffrey Roth, who was actually a film that you are

releasing called The Man.

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Yeah, it was, it is a great film.

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Highly recommend that film.

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Just super exciting and just very interesting.

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So I learned a lot.

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great.

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You know, I'll combine my bio with what's happening.

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Um, been doing this for a very, very long, I've been doing this since the days of VHS.

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That's the easiest way to say this.

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So I've been into business since those days and worked for a couple of different studios,

had a stint at Turner, when, when Ted Turner was running the company until he sold it to

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AOL, uh, went to Polygram until that was sold to Universal.

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And then ran USA Home Entertainment for a while, the home entertainment division.

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We released movies like Traffic and Bing John Malkovich.

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And that was also sold to Universal.

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And then I started my own thing with a couple of partners.

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At the time it was called Heart Sharp.

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uh It changed to Arts Alliance and then it changed to Virgil Films when I took over about

25 years ago.

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So been through it all, been through all the changes from VHS to DVD, from DVD to

streaming.

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from streaming to transactional, m my company has been able to be one of the leaders on

the independent side of taking a film and getting it put up and making it available for

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the consumer to purchase.

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The hard part is two things.

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One, alerting the consumer that it's out there, and two, m giving them a reason to rent

the film.

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And it used to be that you were able to do that through print ads and TV spots and...

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reviews in every single newspaper in America, big city and small towns.

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They all had film critics.

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All of that is gone.

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mean, yes, the New York Times still publishes reviews.

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That's about it.

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um Rotten Tomatoes.

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It just doesn't really resonate with the consumer.

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So what do you do?

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mean, and filmmakers ask, what do I do?

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And what you're doing and what a lot of other podcasts about filmmaking and

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film distribution and just movies in general, this is slowly becoming the way.

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It hasn't taken over completely yet, but it's becoming a force and we as a distributor

need to lean more into it and become a bigger part of that.

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uh And it's something that you're already doing and it's extremely important because there

is no other way to get the word out about the movies that we release.

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No, and I'll tell you, I've seen a huge uptick in how we are being pitched.

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We're being pitched for filmmakers to come on our podcast from, you know, New York to L.A.

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to everywhere in between.

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And I think that's a testament to we were getting, you know, HBO reaching out to us to

promote their films and Ken Burns So it's happening at every level because it's difficult

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for every film to for people to discover it.

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It's not just the independent filmmaker.

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And so that's what's fascinating about our industry these days.

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If you're not Amazon or Netflix and Apple TV promoting your own stuff, how are people

going to find you?

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the one thing I will say, I I questioned you guys a lot about this in the beginning.

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What I will say is that you do have a method for

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pitching those platforms, the films.

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And there is a small window by which you, know, all of those platforms have ways um that

they allow their, you know, distributors to pitch films to be advertised.

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So for example, for me on Veterans Day, they allow, you know, distributors to pitch their

films that are veteran focused to go on a slate of veteran focused films to be advertised.

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during that day and I used to be so frustrated that, you know, okay, it'd be sold for 99

cents or whatever.

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But I now understand the philosophy behind that is, you know, somebody buys it for 99

cents or a hundred people do, and then they refer it to their friends and then they refer

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to their friends and it, you know, it kind of, want it to get on a roll and pick up speed.

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And so there is at least that.

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Yeah, I mean, it's again, it's a change.

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of the many, you know, seismic changes that our industry goes through.

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It seems to be every week, there's a different volcano erupting, but, um, and we can, you

know, we can concentrate, you know, sometimes when the big stuff happens and know, Netflix

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warners, we concentrate on that and we read all about it it'd you know, we, talk about it,

but at the end of the day, really doesn't mean anything to

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independent, real small independent filmmakers because it's a great read and we know the

people at Netflix and we know the people at Warner Brothers and how that might affect

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them.

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as a consumer, it might affect us.

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But at the end of the day, it's, know, the person that's out there making a film em on

credit cards or however they end up financing a film.

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ah Yeah, that's not really going to those billion dollar deals aren't really going to

affect us.

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Yeah, they really aren't.

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like you said, there are just very few avenues for filmmakers to advertise their films.

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even if, mean, the thing that's interesting about you, Joe, is that Amazon made a rule,

and I don't know when you can tell me, oh that individuals could not upload their films to

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Amazon.

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yeah, and that may be true.

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Is that true for Apple TV as well?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, so, and then it became.

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streaming.

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Apple TV as far as like the old, I still call it iTunes.

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I don't know if you can do it on your own.

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I wouldn't recommend it, but I don't know if you can do it on your own.

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You can put it up on your own, but then what do you do?

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You're a filmmaker.

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You're not a distributor that is giving them, you know, product every single week.

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You know, that's what they're going to pay attention to.

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You know, my guy Tim or my partner Tim,

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He's the guy that puts these films up and he works with that account to get that placement

that you want.

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Yeah, it's easy to put a film up, but if you're not in the new release section on street

date, you know, when the film comes out, you're going to get lost right away.

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And I'm not saying that we're a hundred percent, but we're pretty close to a hundred

percent of getting our films um on those accounts on, you know, street week, I should call

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it, and getting the placement that we need.

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Very hard to do.

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it is.

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And you were grandfathered in for the distributors on Amazon, as I understand it, because

then distributors were told, I think, they were kind of boxed out, right?

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Yeah, I mean, no, they're not really boxed out.

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And I don't want to get too much into that part of the business on a podcast, to be honest

with you.

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em But, you know, we can still, we can still put films up.

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We don't go through the, I guess it's called the Amazon Prime method where you put a film

up and you get paid a certain amount of money per view.

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em We don't, we don't have to do that.

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We still get a transaction.

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We get a cut.

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of the transaction and yeah, we still have that deal.

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Well, so we won't get into all that, but one thing I do know, and we say this at the top

of the podcast, is that you have, make your deals with filmmakers whose films you bring

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into your slate of films.

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You can make deals with filmmakers at every level and for whatever fits the filmmaker.

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And that is one thing that I really respect about you guys.

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You're willing to work with a filmmaker for their needs.

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um

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you know, and you're very flexible that way.

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I remember when I first was talking to a certain distributor, um they originally turned me

down and then I won a film festival and the prize was distribution with them and I got my

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revenge.

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And then they never responded to me to give me my prize.

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And I had to track them down through the film festival.

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And then the offer that they gave me for my prize was locking me in for 15 years and, you

know, not a very good deal.

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And then you got to do all your own work.

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We're not going to really support you.

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And I was like, Oh my goodness.

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And that was, that was eight years ago or so.

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So.

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one of the things that we started about two years ago, and it's just, not for everybody,

but there are so many films that never find distribution.

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And, you know, the film might be two years old, three years old, and, you know, all the

filmmaker wants is to make sure that the film is put up on Amazon and is put up on iTunes

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and is available because they have to report back to their financers.

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And when their financiers say, I helped finance your movie and it's nowhere, that's not a

good thing, especially if you want to go make another movie.

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But those films come to us and some of them are extremely risky.

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There is a cost that we put up to put the film up.

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If we view a film and say, I probably won't even make those costs back, I can't release

the movie.

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We came up with a service deal where there's a fee.

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It's a flat fee and I guarantee the film will be put up, but it's a non-recoupable fee and

it depends on the film on what that fee is.

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But it gives the filmmaker the opportunity to get their film up.

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We've done this quite a few times.

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We've never put a film up that made any money.

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Wait, say that one more time.

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never put a film up through a service deal that has made a substantial amount of money.

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Because in most cases, you know, sometimes you make a movie and it's not that it's a bad

movie, but the subject matter is just not going to resonate with the consumer at all.

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But you still want your film available on Amazon.

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We give you that opportunity to do that.

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Are those filmmakers that then pay that service fee and put their film up, are they

disappointed and like wish they hadn't done it or are they just thankful?

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thrilled.

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They can go back to their financiers and say, the movie is available now.

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Okay, well, that's interesting.

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You know, it kind of leads into one of my questions, which is, do you have a number uh

these days that a film a documentary filmmaker a budget number that a documentary

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filmmaker should stay inside of in order to at least break even or get a return on their

investment?

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That's a scary question.

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um

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It really varies on the subject matter of the doc, but I try to tell people, independent,

true independent filmmakers.

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I'm not talking about movies that a 24 releases or my friends at neon.

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But if it's a true independent film documentary that will probably most likely not be

picked up by a streamer and just go straight to transactional, I would not spend tops.

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More than 250.

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Yeah, that's what I was actually thinking myself.

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talked to filmmakers that have said to me, it cost me $70,000 to make my movie.

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I'm like, wow, that's fantastic.

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That's fantastic.

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Yeah.

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Well, the rule is the less it costs you, the better it is for everybody, no doubt.

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um So let me ask you this.

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Tell me right now and let me guess.

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Let's play a game.

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uh I want to know the...

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I wanna know sort of the top selling genres all the way down.

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So you said it depends on what the subject matter is in terms of how much you should spend

on your movie and where you're gonna make your return.

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So uh horror or murder mystery, whatever it's called, don't know what that's called.

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True crime, that's it.

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So horror, true crime.

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Let's see.

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Now, are you talking documentaries or you just talking all genres?

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Yeah.

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Well, horror documentaries, you mean?

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What do mean by hard documentaries?

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Horror.

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Horror.

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Okay.

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um Listen, I think every single podcast...

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Oh, I'm sorry.

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horror.

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Maybe that was my Mississippi accent coming out.

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True crime.

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Let's see what comes next.

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Maybe sports.

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wish.

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No, that's not it.

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What comes next?

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Horror, true crime.

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What would come next?

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I don't even know.

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I know they kill it and that's the big...

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Well, crime is, you know, as much as we all hate to say it.

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um You make a documentary about a serial killer, it's going to work.

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Is it war and like exposing like political stuff or?

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If you can, if you can talk about, know, well, it's true crime first.

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It's it's um health and well-being second.

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um It's.

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ah

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inspirational stories and that could in sports could fall into that is up is is probably

third though if you want to make a sports doc no it's it's inspirational sports

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documentaries um but then also you know maybe even maybe even topping true crime or

equaling number one is anything that is controversial or

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salacious or, uh you know, crazy stories about people doing really crazy, sometimes evil

things to each other.

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um Exploitation is the best way to say it.

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And this is, you know, this is not stuff that you and I would make.

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We might watch it, um but it's up there.

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But, you know,

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Anna, what's her name?

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Anna, what's her name?

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You know, the Russian girl or who said she was Russian.

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Yeah, perfect example.

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Or the woman who tainted the blood or was collecting the blood just asked for a pardon.

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um

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what about like the Mountaineers?

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What are those called?

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Like the risky?

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We are the guys that climbed Kilimanjaro and stuff like that.

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You know, it's funny.

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uh know it doesn't work anymore.

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There's so many.

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We released a movie called The Quest last year.

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Wonderful film.

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um And about a guy, you know, his quest was to climb Kilimanjaro.

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And it it just didn't, I mean, really has not worked so far.

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We did a film years ago about a bunch of soldiers coming back from Iraq, each one of them.

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having severe PTSD and they got together to climb the mountain.

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um No, I don't know why.

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And I've had multiple conversations with Nat Geo about these types of films and they keep,

and they have said to me, and I think they're right, there's just a lot of them and

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there's a lot on Nat Geo.

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um And so there's, know, do we need one more movie about that same subject as beautiful as

it might be?

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But you know, it's funny.

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Geo?

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What about animal docs and things like that?

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You know, I would somebody there is a I don't even I don't even know if we can call it a

film.

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There is a collection of cat videos.

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OK, so somebody so what do you hear?

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This is for all filmmakers out there.

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There is 90 minutes of cat videos, and we all know what cat videos are, because you watch

them on YouTube and TikTok.

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The most adorable cat video is 90 minutes, and it was put into a package, into a film.

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And it's being distributed as a cat video fest.

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So if you go and you Google this, you will see cat video fest appearing at almost every

independent movie theater in the country.

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It's not.

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You're not going to find it at Regal or AMC.

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So we have a local theater here, independent theater that I do a once a month movie club

with where I show classic films and we discuss them.

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And I came, I went to him and I said, you need to do this cat video thing.

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he's like, yeah, you're my cat videos.

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252 seat theater.

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He sold out in about four days.

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my word.

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Well, I will tell you, I went to a film festival, I can't remember what it was.

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Maybe it was the Dubuque Film Festival and I saw a film, Cat Daddy's.

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This is a couple of years ago.

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Did you ever see it?

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my gosh, it was awesome.

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It was awesome.

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There's just nothing about this.

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Yeah.

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you and I need to get a camera and go find some dogs because there's no dogs yet.

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Um, but that's how crazy things are.

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But it also, it also speaks directly to what people want to see and what people want to

see that no one will recognize, especially at the studio level.

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Just look at today's Oscar noms and you can realize this.

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They want to see something that makes them feel good.

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That's true.

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They want to see something that takes them away to the horrors that are going on

everywhere right now.

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And it is a horror right now.

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m So if it's 90 minutes of cat videos, and I'm not a cat person, I recognize that.

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m And so I am still of the belief that if you make an inspirational documentary,

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about any subject and you market it right, you through all the methods that we're talking

about right now and you get it out there, it could work.

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And that could be about Normandy.

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That could be about a man searching for uh lost treasures in Egypt, man with the hat.

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It could be about a couple.

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that is having problems with their young child because he's the wrong red dye.

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uh These types of films are working.

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Now, are they making a million dollars?

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No, but they're making money and they consistently make money.

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So it can be done.

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It can definitely be done.

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Yeah.

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And I will say, um, you know, as far as my phone goes, what I was shocked about was you

guys were even able to find me quite a bit of money from canal plus.

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That was just stunning.

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That was the biggest, that was the biggest deal.

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I never even imagined that would happen.

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And you know, it's still, it's still making money.

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mean, it's not only on, you know, the streaming services, but

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you know, people are still booking us to.

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uh Now, I do wonder how the political environment is going to change that.

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And I desperately wish I could change the cover and even the name, because truly my film

is about gratitude for, uh you know, sacrifice and what others have done for you.

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That's the theme of my movie.

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And uh so I'm I never in a million years.

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I thought my film would be evergreen and that it would never be challenged.

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And I just could never imagine where we are today.

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So that tells you how much I can predict the future.

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um

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it's interesting, the Canal Plus deal, I mean, it's specific because obviously your film

takes place in France, but the sad part about all of this is there are successes, but

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again, there's seven out of 10 films don't make it.

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Yeah, well, I want to come back to you.

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You'd reference the man with the hat.

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You'd reference the film you were talking about is To Die For.

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We had them on the podcast.

350

They were very different.

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They went about their stuff a very different way.

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And I'm going to ask you a question about, you know, kind of what filmmakers have done

things right and which ones, you know, made mistakes.

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uh But before we get to that, you also mentioned the Oscar.

354

So today Oscar noms came out.

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Let's talk about that for a second.

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What do you think?

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I mean, it was very predictable.

358

um don't have a problem with any of the nominations.

359

They're all really good films.

360

Well, why don't you tell us I haven't even read them yet.

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So let's announce them.

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Although they'll be old news.

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you know, the best thing I can tell you is that one battle after another sinners

Frankenstein sentimental value.

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took most of the nominations.

365

Multiple, think, centers broke the record.

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16 nominations, right?

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And sinners are really good film.

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The acting, most of the actors are from those films.

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The cinematographers from those films.

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So there wasn't a whole wealth of films, different films that were nominated.

371

There's films that are nominated in best international film, which used to be called the

best foreign film.

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same films are nominated in the best film category.

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um So when I look back at it, and again, I don't have any problems with any, they're all

good films.

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I don't know if any of them are great films.

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To me, Braveheart's a great film.

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um None of them fall into the category of what um I would consider great, great, great

films.

377

They're not out of Africa great.

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No, somebody just sent me a link of the films that won best picture in throughout the

379

Godfather, Godfather II, I mean, the list is the staying iconic movies.

380

And maybe one battle after another or one of these films that gets, know, the wins will

become iconic throughout the years because sometimes films, you know, gain stature over a

381

matter of years.

382

But what to me that was bothersome about this is when four or five films or three or four

films get, you know, the bulk of the nominations.

383

It just means that there wasn't a whole lot of good movies made this past year.

384

You think?

385

Or do you think it's that there is a issue with the voters?

386

oh

387

there's that.

388

There is definitely that, but I'm the guy that sees all the films.

389

I still go to the movies two, three times a week.

390

I'm going to a movie at 5.30 tonight at the theaters.

391

That's where I live.

392

That's my, there is a small little film called, got me.

393

It's Virginia Madsen's in it.

394

It's about, yeah, it's about veterans coming home suffering.

395

PTSD, small little film begins with an S, Shutterbug or might be Shutterbug.

396

um So, you know, it plays for one week and then will disappear.

397

um But I've seen I've seen all the films that are nominated and I go to movies all the

time and I walk out of the theater going, OK, that was OK, you know, or that was good.

398

But I, you know, Train Dreams was probably the only film this past year that no one has

seen that I got chills when it was over.

399

What was that about?

400

I never even heard of it.

401

There you go, and it's nominated for best picture and you're the average consumer No,

you're above average imagine the average consumer that's gonna look at this list and

402

they're gonna go.

403

Alright, I've heard of sinners I've heard of one bad away after another there's ten films

nominated by the way Haven't heard most of the others and they're not gonna watch the

404

Oscars So it's it's it's it's I think it's combination of what you said the voting um

establishment

405

and the fact that there just have not been any, you a whole lot of great films.

406

What were the docs nominated?

407

I, you know, it happened two hours ago, so I don't really remember.

408

I really don't.

409

Three of them I've never heard of before.

410

um Yeah.

411

Yes.

412

oh So anyway, so it's, you know, but the Oscars, you know, they've been what they are for

a very long time now, and we all hope they get a little bit better, but I'm happy that

413

Conan is a big Conan and Brian fan, so I'm happy that he's hosting and.

414

uh

415

As far as who ends up winning, know, the controversy is Wicked didn't get one nomination.

416

know, five songs were nominated for original song and Wicked didn't get any of them.

417

I've never, most of those songs are played over the end credits.

418

They have nothing to do with the movie.

419

So, but when you, when you see the nominations, uh I'm sure, yeah.

420

Sinners, 16 nominations.

421

One battle after another, 13.

422

Frankenstein, nine.

423

Marty Supreme, nine.

424

Cinnamanial Value, nine.

425

Hamnet, eight.

426

Bugonia, nine.

427

F1, nine.

428

The Secret, eight.

429

I'm sorry, Bugonia, four.

430

uh F1, four.

431

The Secret Agent, four.

432

Train Dreams, four.

433

Um.

434

So you, know, that's most of the, that's probably all of the nominations.

435

let's see.

436

Well.

437

a few with one or two, with a smaller.

438

small.

439

asking what the best nominations were for the documentaries.

440

um The Alabama Solution, HBO films, Come See Me in the Good Light, Apple, Cutting Through

Rocks, Mr.

441

Nobody Against Putin, Pink, and The Perfect Neighbor, Netflix.

442

Yeah, Perfect Neighbor is good.

443

But it's interesting though, the Perfect Neighbor.

444

Have you seen the Perfect Neighbor?

445

I thought if I can remember, I thought it was like a two part or a three part series.

446

Maybe they put it all into one if it's the same.

447

It's about a crazy neighbor and the bad things happen.

448

em So I've heard of three of them.

449

em But it's always like that with documentary.

450

The best thing about the documentary category is

451

Now I will go search for those films that I've never heard of before and make sure that I

see them, because I like to see everything that's nominated before the award.

452

So if those films are available, first I got to scowl around and see if they are.

453

I know that one of them, Kino has, Kino Lorber has, the one that Putin is in the title.

454

oh So I know I can go see it there.

455

So now it's all about discovery.

456

um That's one of the good things about the Oscars.

457

Sometimes they bring out films that we've just never seen before.

458

Yeah, Mr.

459

Nobody Against Putin is the one that you were referencing.

460

um Yeah, it's interesting and it's also interesting how many um of the streamers and in

whose films are nominated or whose films are in these nominations.

461

All right, let's get back.

462

Let's move on to my other questions.

463

One of them was or I'd mentioned them.

464

what things have you seen filmmakers do right for this day and age?

465

And then what mistakes have you seen filmmakers make, um you know, where their films

haven't done well?

466

So, and this is kind of easy to answer because then it goes back to what we were just

talking about as far as the change in marketing methods.

467

Our biggest successes over the past two to three years have been films that have come to

us where the filmmaker has already done extensive homework into who would want to see

468

their film.

469

So they bring that to the table.

470

What most, a lot of filmmakers don't,

471

understand or don't want to understand is that especially when it comes to a documentary

that filmmaker has lived that story for three years, four years, five years, and we have

472

lived it for 90 minutes.

473

So we are not going to be the experts on that film and we never will be the experts on

that film.

474

So we look to the filmmaker to help us find places to market the film and in simplistic

terms

475

you're releasing a movie about fighting cancer, well, you go to every cancer organization

in America and try to put things on their websites when the film comes out.

476

em Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, but that's one method.

477

But more importantly is taking advantage of the podcast world, the blogging world, the

reels, threads, mean, all these new and newer ways of promoting films.

478

em

479

And when we have had people that have already started to build their own community, that's

when it not only works in the beginning, but it works for years to come.

480

um

481

and I thought I had done a great job of that, which I had, I did a really good job.

482

had curated our audience, but then To Die For came along and I interviewed them and I, you

know, watched what they had done and they just blew me out of the water.

483

Now I do think there is a difference between their audience and mine.

484

And that is where like, there's just, they are dealing with a health issue and they are

dealing with children.

485

And that, uh

486

those are off the charts in terms of the need for their information and the audience that

they built and Unimind's a much more niche, older audience.

487

But also not to, you you're kicking yourself when you shouldn't be.

488

Their film came out years after your film came out.

489

And when your film first came out, none of this stuff existed.

490

I was also in COVID, I came out in COVID.

491

so that you know that just killed every every every everybody thought oh COVID we're all

gonna be staying home So what are we gonna do?

492

We're gonna watch movies.

493

Well, no, we didn't

494

Well, and the film festival circuit was just not there.

495

mean, it was brutal, brutal, brutal.

496

And then also I had the whole falter with not a good distributor that was my whole first

year.

497

So, I mean, there were plenty of problems in the beginning.

498

Anyway, you're right.

499

Thank you.

500

I was kicking myself there for a second.

501

Okay.

502

So yes, now we know what they can do well is curate their own audience and be their best

advocate.

503

continuing to curate their own audience and you know that means a lot of social media and

it doesn't necessarily mean paying for social media it means knowing what you're doing and

504

um probably doing it yourself.

505

Yeah, that initial budget that you come up with when you make a movie, I try to tell

filmmakers and they don't want to hear it.

506

I'm like, all right, you're going to spend 300,000 to make a movie.

507

Well, 15 % of that you just take off the top and save to the end.

508

No, what do you mean?

509

That's, you know, $40,000 and I'm not going to be able to spend on, you know, whatever.

510

And I'm like, yeah, well, you're going to need it at the end.

511

Yeah.

512

And you know, this goes to what I harp on constantly and I'm going to say it again, which

is it happens in the acting world.

513

It also happens in the film world, which is as artists, we are always thinking about the

art we want to create.

514

I want to do this.

515

I have this talent.

516

I have this story.

517

I want to tell it.

518

I am good at this.

519

I want to do this.

520

We rarely think about the economics at the end.

521

And what I've learned on this other side is we have to work backwards.

522

We have to say, who is my audience?

523

What am I going to do with this?

524

Is there a market for this?

525

know, is it a good investment of my time and my money or other people's money?

526

And if the answer is not yes to all of those questions, it is not a wise thing to do no

matter how much I want to do it.

527

It just doesn't make a lot of sense.

528

And that's a sad, hard answer.

529

But if you really want to do, you know, and I was just thinking about this as we were

talking about the cat movies.

530

If I really want to be a filmmaker and that's my calling and I want to make a living doing

that, it's sad that I am going to have to look at the market and look at what they're

531

buying and figuring, figure out what story can I make that they want?

532

Not what story do I want to tell.

533

Yeah.

534

So, so if you're making a story or if your story is just a relatively small story about an

individual in a small town that never resonated outside of that small town, it's going to

535

be hard if you're not HBO, you know, or if you're not, you know, someone being backed by a

streamer, you know, or neon or things like that.

536

Now, you know, you can also take that, that idea that you have.

537

and take it to a streamer and try to get them to put up the financing to make it.

538

But they will be involved in the making of the film and they will own the film.

539

So there's always that.

540

that for a second, because I know you do that as well.

541

um Talk to us about that process and talk to us about, it used to, I think, be more

successful than it is now since they've been vertically integrating and doing their own

542

films.

543

However, they've stopped putting as much money into making their own stuff.

544

So has that changed in terms of their buying habits?

545

No, no, I don't know.

546

They have not stopped putting money into making their own.

547

Mmm, I just read something today.

548

well, you can read anything you want.

549

They're making their own movies.

550

ah They, they, yeah, maybe their budget went from 26 billion to and I'm not even

exaggerating here, five billion to four billion.

551

Yeah, yeah.

552

Yeah, but that's where all their money's going.

553

So, you know, perfect example is the Matt Damon Ben Affleck movie.

554

I think it's called RIP that just premiered on Netflix.

555

Netflix put up the money to make that movie.

556

So.

557

um So every film, I'm sorry, every streamer has multiple divisions and some of them have

original production divisions, original documentaries, original series.

558

So say you have an idea for a doc series or a doc film and you don't have a vehicle to

raise the money.

559

So a pitch is put together.

560

You come to someone like us.

561

um

562

And we have the ability of taking that project into the streamers um and sitting with the

original team and saying, hey, you like this idea?

563

This is where we're at so far.

564

um And if you're interested in possibly making, putting up the money to make this project,

then the next step is I fly out with the director or the producer and do an even bigger

565

pitch.

566

So we do do that.

567

We're very selective, obviously, because you don't want to waste your time.

568

We kind of know what not to pitch them.

569

There has to be a certain quality.

570

again, it's it's it's and then if they're not interested in that, then you go back to the

filmmaker and you say, listen, your idea that, you know, in your mind is a great idea has

571

basically just been passed on by every streamer.

572

So you need to ask yourself, OK, it goes back to exactly what you were just saying.

573

Where am I gonna make the money on this film?

574

You can still make the film and make that not on transactional, know, Amazon and iTunes

and stuff, but it's gonna be a lot less.

575

And you need to say, okay, so maybe I don't spend $300,000 on this movie.

576

Maybe I spend $125,000 and you shave down the budget and you, you know, as a producer and

director, you don't take the salary that you wanted to take and all of those things come

577

into play.

578

So, you know, we have the ability to do that.

579

And then it's the same thing with licensing, because they don't license a whole lot

anymore.

580

These are finished films.

581

While I'm in the building, if I'm meeting with the original folks, I'll also meet with

licensing people.

582

So I don't do that as much as I used to, only because...

583

There's a schedule that is now, used to go in a couple of times a quarter, but now it's

once a quarter.

584

Because there's so many other things happening, you to make sure you're not going in right

before a film festival or right after a film festival because their mind is there.

585

um The same thing with the film market.

586

Sometimes I have those meetings at the film markets, whether it be Berlin or Cannes or

AFM.

587

uh So it's getting the product, whether it be something that you want to make or something

that you've already made.

588

in front of those people and we still have the ability to do that, though we are not as

successful as we used to be because they're just not back.

589

Yeah, interesting.

590

Okay, let's go back to, em you know, to ask you the first what filmmakers are doing that's

successful.

591

What have you been seeing that's not working?

592

What definitely does not work, and that doesn't mean we won't take on the film, is that

filmmaker that comes and has nothing.

593

They don't, they haven't done their homework.

594

They don't, you know, we ask them to help us with, you know, identifying uh places to go

to talk about their film and they have not identified any of them yet.

595

That's, and it's not their fault.

596

It's, haven't, they went to film school.

597

They were never taught this.

598

They were never, it's not their fault because

599

It took them a year and a half to make their movie and the whole world changed in a year

and a half.

600

can't blame the filmmaker, em but it's just the reality.

601

you know, that's really the main problem that we run into with certain, with some

filmmakers.

602

And again, I don't blame them.

603

We still try as hard, but, you know, that's the difference.

604

What you're doing...

605

or what you're offering with this type of podcast didn't exist two years ago, three years

ago when they started making their movie.

606

True.

607

So do you, do you, yeah.

608

one thing is overspending.

609

It just it's so easy to spend money.

610

um You just have to be so careful every penny that goes out the door.

611

And that means that you might not get that forty five thousand dollar um cinematographer

that you want.

612

just might not be able to do it.

613

And there's really good cinematographers for a lot less money.

614

Especially these days.

615

Yeah.

616

And also there's equipment that is good that is less money as well.

617

I mean, everything's getting cheaper, which is good.

618

uh Okay.

619

So my next question is, you know, uh we had talked about, I guess what I'm wondering is

how often are filmmakers coming to you versus

620

How much are you finding films and seeking out the filmmakers?

621

90 % of the films that we release are folks to come to us from recommendations, just like

your film came to us.

622

how do people pitch you?

623

They send me an email or Tim an email and they say, hey, we've got this film.

624

Would you like to see it?

625

um In every single case, we say, send us a link.

626

I don't care what the film is.

627

We're to watch the film.

628

Every film gets a shot.

629

And then we watch the film and we take it from there.

630

If we pass on it, we will send back a very nice email saying, sorry, we pass.

631

We don't get in the big time specifics because then it'll create an email train that'll go

on forever.

632

em

633

And if we're interested, then the next step is getting on the phone with the filmmaker.

634

And do you distribute anything other than features and do you distribute anything other

than docs?

635

Yeah, we, you know, I'm looking for a good horror movie.

636

You have to.

637

um Yeah, we released a really good film called Missing Couple that was kind of like a

found footage film that continues to do well.

638

um We just put out a film called Home Free, Canadian film by a Greek filmmaker by the name

of Avi Federgreen.

639

It's a family drama that we're kind of struggling with a little bit because the cast is

unheard of.

640

It's a beautiful film.

641

about aging and how children deal with their aging parents, one of them being very sick.

642

going on right now.

643

I could do that doc myself or do that film myself.

644

so we definitely will look, we're looking at narratives more now than we ever have been.

645

um Not that we're gonna get away from docs at all, but yeah, we look at anything.

646

But it has to be a feature film.

647

We tried shorts years ago and you're still putting in all the effort and you're getting no

returns whatsoever.

648

eh So no, we don't do shorts.

649

People do pitch us things, it could be a potential series.

650

same thing.

651

while we're sitting in that office, whether it be Apple or whoever I'm sitting with, I

could pitch the series concept as well.

652

What I don't recommend, yeah, what I don't recommend, and there are filmmakers that do

this, is before they even show it to anybody, they'll go out in their film, they will film

653

the first three episodes.

654

Don't do that.

655

Yeah, not a good idea spending too much money when you have no idea if it's even gonna,

right.

656

Wow, I mean, I'm learning a lot even today.

657

It's amazing how things have changed since we first met.

658

They feel like they are changing all the time.

659

It is, and it's you know, it's it's difficult to keep up with, but.

660

um It's very encouraging for me and for Tim to begin to see things like, you know, again,

I'm not here to just praise documentary first, but what you're doing and what a lot of

661

other podcasters and bloggers are doing is helping, helping get the word out about films

and.

662

I think back to films that we released three, four, five, six years ago, I wish this was

in place at that point, because I think this will become the norm.

663

As much as I, as you know, the guy that gets New York Times on his driveway every weekend,

they're going away, you know?

664

um And uh that's just a sign of the times and it's just a sign of how old I am.

665

um you know, and the other thing is,

666

the younger crop of filmmakers, the people that to die for is the Jeff Roth's man in a

hat, what I'm encouraged by.

667

They're much younger than I am.

668

And a lot of the things that they're doing, not only would I not have a clue on how to do,

but I don't even want to learn.

669

But I have a partner by name of Tim Maggiani that has embraced that world to a point that,

you know,

670

He owns it and so, and it's fantastic because you me, I just want to watch movies.

671

uh

672

Yeah, well, I think you guys are a great pair because you do have that experience.

673

You have those relationships in the industry.

674

He is young and he does have that desire to learn and grow.

675

And, uh you know, it's just it's just a good it's a good match for sure.

676

um I think you guys make a great team.

677

um And, you know, I appreciate your kind words for the podcast.

678

And I do agree with you.

679

It really is the only way to get your word out about films.

680

People used to think dump a lot of money into social media about

681

advertising your film, but that doesn't work.

682

I never found the return on that.

683

Simply, you also cannot show a return on your investment.

684

You just can't.

685

And so it's a serious waste of money, in my opinion.

686

You're just dumping, I don't know, you're throwing good money after bad.

687

And it just does not make a lot of sense if you're a filmmaker to do that.

688

So.

689

Yeah, well, thank you.

690

Now I'm just wondering, is there anything else going on in your life I need to know about

what's happening at Virgil Films?

691

So yeah, I mean, we're still acquiring and releasing films every month.

692

You just spoke about, you know, man the hat when things are appropriate, which most of

them are.

693

introduced that filmmaker to you guys and some other podcasters to try to help get the

word out.

694

you know, one of the good things about today's business is let's say your movie comes out

today, but the person isn't on the podcast until next month.

695

That's fine, because we all live in this world of instant gratification.

696

Street date almost doesn't mean anything anymore.

697

Yeah.

698

we want to be promoting the movie three months from now.

699

We don't want to stop.

700

We want somebody on your podcast next month talking about a movie that came out last

month.

701

It doesn't matter when they're on the podcast.

702

The only thing that does matter is we don't want that filmmaker to be exposing the film

until after it comes out, not before it comes out.

703

Two things I wanted to ask you about.

704

meant to say you've said a few times now, the good thing, blah, blah.

705

One of my questions was going to be, is there anything to be encouraged about?

706

And I want to reiterate, you've now said the good thing is there are ways that you can get

the word out, such as podcasts and blogs.

707

You also said, know that equipment's getting less expensive.

708

good filmmaking like cinematographers, et cetera, getting less expensive.

709

Are there any other things that you can think about, other good news that's out there that

we don't need to be getting all down about?

710

You know, it's easy to get down about everything.

711

I think that you, you know, the good news would be I'm seeing more and more filmmakers ah

not caring about the bad things that are happening and striving forward to make good

712

films, inspirational stories, films that matter, documentaries that matter, in spite of

everything else that's happening around them.

713

um Or having ideas to make

714

good films that will resonate with audiences and maybe educate and entertain them.

715

uh And not all just nice inspirational, we all smile at the end, but some hard hitting

stuff as well.

716

um And staying away from the political, uh you know, firestorm that's happening on a daily

basis.

717

Because that changes so much that you're make a movie in six weeks from now, it's gonna be

a totally different story.

718

So yeah, so.

719

em That's very, very encouraging.

720

Good.

721

Well, next question is in the old days, in the olden days last week, oh there used to be a

pathway, which was you, your street date was you release in the theater, you have the

722

theatrical release, then you go to DVD, then you go, and there was this whole pathway that

does not apply anymore.

723

That went out the window a while.

724

What does the pathway look like now?

725

So to pathway, there is still a street date.

726

It's funny that we still call it street date.

727

That's the term that was invented back in 1982.

728

It's really release date.

729

That's really the business needs to change to release date.

730

In fact, maybe we'll start changing it to release date.

731

There has to be a date that your movie is available to the public, whether it be on a

screen in a theater or whether it be on Amazon and iTunes and Voodoo to go rent.

732

um

733

release date is always the first date your film is available.

734

And in most cases, that is, if it is picked up by Netflix, unless it's an original, that

is not the first date.

735

That date comes two or three months later.

736

uh Your first date is your transactional date.

737

know, the date the movie is available to go find on sites all around the world and rent or

purchase your movie digitally.

738

So that pattern is still there.

739

do you know what IMDB told me?

740

IMDB told me my release date is my first film festival.

741

Yeah, well that's not true.

742

Well, it's not true in the real world, but I'm not allowed to change it on IMDb because

they're only going by when my first film festival was.

743

And that's what they

744

that's, that's, uh, it's, it's, it's disheartening that they, that they would say that.

745

And it's probably because there is no actual person.

746

It's usually, it's probably a bot, but, or it's just something that's in their system.

747

Um,

748

Cause it makes my movie look a lot older than it really is.

749

put a film in a film festival.

750

Your movie might not come out for a year and a half.

751

That's ridiculous.

752

I know it's crazy.

753

um right.

754

So, so let's say, um well, let's say it gets into Netflix or let's say Amazon prime pays

money for it.

755

So Netflix or Amazon prime, prime, then after that, let's say they have a two year deal or

whatever.

756

What, what happens after that?

757

It goes to transactional and let it would go to.

758

it's on transactional wallets on Netflix.

759

Same time.

760

Okay, then what happens?

761

So, well, you continue to say it's on Netflix for two years.

762

Comes off of Netflix and then you immediately go back to all of the other SVOD accounts

that will probably say no.

763

But you you repitch it.

764

But your focus, you know, the Netflix's or the Apple's of the world is the candle on the

icing of the cake.

765

It's just more revenue coming down the road.

766

your focus is always primarily, not primarily, your focus is always 100 % on the

transactional release.

767

You're not gonna promote the movie being on a streamer because the streamer is going to

give you one lump sum of money and whether you promote the heck out of it to get people to

768

go there and watch it, they're not gonna give you any more money.

769

So you already got that money, you already have that deal.

770

So all of your efforts have to go towards the transactional.

771

So, but there's an order of transactional.

772

So what's the order of

773

transactional, so it goes on every site at the same day.

774

Your film, when we released it, became available on Amazon and Voodoo and whatever was,

I'm not sure if Google Play was, know, yeah, whatever those accounts were.

775

It's on there forever.

776

Or until we take it down.

777

others.

778

Then there's YouTube, Pluto.

779

I'm sorry.

780

So, over the past couple of years, uh AVOD has come into play, the YouTube and the Tubi's

and the Pluto's.

781

If there is no streaming deal, no Netflix deal, then we will look at when is the best time

to put it up on those sites.

782

Because those sites will advertise, come see my movie for free.

783

Because you can go to Tubi and you don't have to pay.

784

And the distributor and the filmmaker gets a piece of the advertising, the commercials uh

that appear throughout the film.

785

So you don't want to do that the same day as transactional, unless there's a reason to do

it.

786

So that's where Tim's expertise comes into play, because every film is different.

787

And he will window out when it should be on AVOD and make that decision with the

filmmaker.

788

He doesn't just do it.

789

on what your sales are on the transactional platform.

790

based on what we think the sales are going to be.

791

Most of the time it's two to three months.

792

And then you also have um library options and cannabis.

793

we try to exploit through Canopy or through any of the other library sites throughout the

term of the film.

794

Yeah.

795

Now Amazon for sure and YouTube now have ad platforms.

796

So like is my film, I know it's on the Amazon, you know, TV OD, TVOD.

797

Is it also on AVOD?

798

No, um and that's really a Tim question because we want to make sure we exploit the

transactional business as far out as we can before it possibly goes on an AVOD site where

799

that could harm the transactional business.

800

I'm not positive where, you know, if your film's up on the Amazon AVOD site.

801

know it probably isn't.

802

Netflix also has an AVOD site that

803

our films are not available on that part of Netflix.

804

It's very tricky when to put your film up.

805

But we have a great relationship with Tubi.

806

We visit them when we go out to LA.

807

We talk about when doing with them.

808

If Tubi were to come and say, you have this movie called A Girl, your film, and we really

like it and we want to give you this sum of money if you don't put it up anywhere else.

809

any other AVOD platforms, we'd come back to you and say, hey, we got an offer.

810

And, you know, that's, that's what we do.

811

And there's multiple, you know, ways, or we try to exploit multiple ways of bringing in

money throughout the term of the film.

812

If the film works, there's so many films that, you know, you've tried it and it just

doesn't work.

813

And every quarter you're making, you know, $120 and you come to realize that

814

Some films just aren't going to work.

815

One other thing I want to bring up, which I've just learned about, is that my film is now

on several torrent sites.

816

You know, in the old days we used to say if somebody's booting my movie, it's a good thing

because I got a movie that's good enough to be booted.

817

um You can try to take them down.

818

You can get them taken down and you can, you will drive yourself crazy.

819

Yeah, I know.

820

I've talked to several people now and they're like, well, people are doing that because

they don't have access to your film.

821

And that's why they're wanting it.

822

It's probably in Europe.

823

My movie is only on Canal Plus and people in France, a lot of them don't have Canal Plus

actually, because it is a subscription service.

824

So um it's very possible.

825

That's one thing going on.

826

But for those of you who don't know what Torn is, it is a pirating site where they take,

you know,

827

portions of your film and they put portions up and then people can go and download all the

portions and then make the whole film.

828

And um yeah, I was very disturbed to learn that, but then at the same time, what are you

gonna do?

829

There's nothing you can do.

830

the studios don't do anything.

831

But I actually am learning that there are lawsuits right now that are going on, which

could very well make that illegal.

832

mean, illegal.

833

It is illegal, but not possible anymore.

834

I don't know how, but.

835

most of those sites are originating from China, believe it or not, Iraq, em a lot of third

world countries that we have no jurisdiction whatsoever.

836

Years ago, and I forget who was even the president at that time, it was that long ago,

there was some talk about saying, you know, if your country allows this to happen, there

837

will be ramifications.

838

em Nothing ever came of that.

839

I do remember

840

very good friend of mine was running MGM at the time.

841

And this is when it was big, you when it first started that you can go to a site and you

can download and watch a movie that just opened up on Friday, you know, the previous

842

Friday.

843

So MGM found out about these folks and I forget what country it was in and it was going to

be a major bust.

844

And they showed up with the local authorities, busted into the place.

845

And this place was so sophisticated that they had tunnels that went down.

846

into the ground across the streets so they could escape.

847

It was that big of a business, that big of a business.

848

And they shut them down.

849

And, you know, two days later, the film was still available on 100 other sites.

850

So um there's just nothing you can do.

851

Now, but again, you see your film, you know, sometimes we see films in the old days, we

see films put up on YouTube.

852

And this is for you.

853

YouTube for free where it's not supposed to be and then you alert us and that we can get

taken down.

854

But again, I encourage filmmakers, can't, and we got a thousand movies, we can't be

looking on, you it's up to the filmmaker to constantly look and see if their film's uh

855

available on recognizable mainstream sites where it shouldn't be.

856

Yeah.

857

Okay.

858

Good to know.

859

I'll go check.

860

um All right.

861

I interrupted you, took us down a different path.

862

I had asked you what new is going on, Virgil Films.

863

You're like, we're still putting up movies.

864

We're still talking to people.

865

Is that it?

866

Anything else going on?

867

Yeah, there is actually one more thing going on that I don't want to talk about this in

length.

868

So it's going to be a little bit vague only because I, but you're going to be, this is

crazy.

869

I'm going to say it.

870

um I have finished producing a documentary.

871

I have written, directed and produced a documentary.

872

It's done.

873

too old for that.

874

It's in the can.

875

um It is a Philadelphia based documentary about a sports team here in Philadelphia that

I've been working on now for two and a half years.

876

Okay.

877

oh I've kept it very, very quiet, um but it looks like it's going to come out in April.

878

As soon as everything is confirmed, em I do want to come back to you and talk about the

film, what I've been through and a lot of the things that we talked about today.

879

In fact, everything that we talked about today, I have now personally been through myself.

880

um And there's a couple of things that I've learned that I can share is one, it's really,

really hard to make a movie.

881

it has not, but you know, it's definitely not gotten easier for sure to make a movie and.

882

lucky because I didn't have to experience it when it was easier.

883

It never was easy.

884

did you?

885

I mean, what are the major things that have changed since the last time?

886

Mainly, you never go make a movie when you have another job.

887

Yeah, that is a thing.

888

uh

889

and because of a lot of the things we talked about budgetary wise, everyone that helped me

with this movie has other jobs, full time jobs, you know.

890

em So everything from editing to actual on the ground filming em to everything could not

like I didn't have a 25 day shooting schedule.

891

So those are the things that when I do this again and I will do it again, I

892

Now I know.

893

Don't do a story where it's going to take you some, know, people aren't going to be

894

And, you know, yes, they're coming to Philadelphia and you can film them for free, but

they're not going to be here for two and a half months, or you can spend $5,000 to go into

895

the hinterlands of Canada to find them.

896

And so, you know, you know what the answer to that question is.

897

So, but yeah, it's very, very hard.

898

And it's very, very, now that the film is finished.

899

and there will come a time where people will get to see it.

900

It's very nerve wracking.

901

em And until it comes out, I'm going to feel this way.

902

But I wish I started doing this many, many years ago.

903

um I can't wait to do it again.

904

I'm so proud of you.

905

That's so, so exciting.

906

Are you in the rights and clearances section right now?

907

Oh, it's all that's done.

908

Well, then what are you waiting on?

909

Release date with a huge theater, huge, in Philadelphia that wants to premiere.

910

Mmm, that's exciting.

911

Man, I may have to come for that.

912

ah

913

is that's the that's the hold up and I can't really you know until you have your you know

this until you have your premiere date I can't plan anything else, but hopefully all

914

that's done within the next I Don't know four or five days There's a meeting.

915

I I suppose I have a meeting with them on Monday.

916

Unfortunately I don't know if you're watching the weather but my area supposed to get like

25 inches of snow starting on Sunday.

917

So

918

Monday's not gonna happen.

919

But yeah, we're very close to confirming that date and then everything follows around it.

920

But yeah, I'll be more than happy to talk to you about it in length.

921

Maybe even one of the main characters in the film will join us.

922

We'll see.

923

Yeah.

924

would be amazing.

925

I cannot wait.

926

that's just super.

927

What a great way to end our podcast.

928

I mean, you know what you're talking about from both sides of the camera.

929

It's just really great.

930

Everybody.

931

This has just been such a pleasure to have you, Joe.

932

Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us, your time with us.

933

I'm so incredibly grateful for your friendship and for just everything you mean to me and

you mean to this podcast.

934

So yeah.

935

All right, everybody, thank you for listening to Documentary First, where we believe

everybody has a story to tell and you could be the one to tell it.

936

Bye, everybody.

937

Thank you.

938

Alright, don't hang up.