You've built the career. You've hit the milestones, earned the respect, ticked the boxes that once seemed so far away. And yet there's a quiet discomfort underneath it all. Something that's hard to name but hard to ignore. A sense that the achievements are real, and yet something at the heart of it is still missing. I wonder if that feeling is more common among successful leaders than any of us let on.

What if the thing that's missing isn't another goal, a bigger title, or a smarter strategy, but a deeper sense of what your leadership is actually for? In this conversation, Prina Shah and I explore the idea that legacy isn't something you earn at the end of a long career and hand it over at your farewell function. It's something you can build right now, today, with this team, on this project. We also get into what it really means to manage your energy rather than just your time, and what it looks like to step back from heroic leadership and build something that genuinely doesn't depend entirely on you.

Prina Shah is a coach, consultant, trainer, speaker, and the author of Make Work Meaningful: How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy. She's spent years working alongside executives who have achieved extraordinary things, and she asks the question most leaders are too busy to sit with: what's missing from a heart perspective? In this conversation, we explore:

• How to reframe legacy as something you leave every single day, not a footnote reserved for the end of a career
• Why leaders who carry that nagging sense of something missing often haven't yet defined what will actually fulfil them
• How shifting from ambition to meaning changes the quality of decisions you make
• Why managing your energy rather than your time is the more honest path to sustained performance
• How a simple "door framing" practice can keep you genuinely present across a day of back-to-back meetings
• Why becoming the indispensable go-to in your organisation might be the thing quietly holding your team back
• How building a learning culture inside your team creates resilience that doesn't depend on you to sustain it
• Why the question "what important things have no action steps attached to them?" might be the most useful one you haven't been asking

Timestamps:

(00:00) - Reframing Legacy: A Daily Consideration

(05:00) - The Missing Piece: Fulfilment Beyond Achievements

(12:06) - Energy Management: The Key to Effective Leadership

(18:06) - Creating a Learning Culture: Empowering Teams

(25:00) - Breaking the Bottleneck: Trusting Your Team

(32:12) - Redefining Work: Balancing Leadership and Reflection

Other references:

• Make Work Meaningful: How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy — Prina Shah
• Ways to Change Your Workplace Podcast — Prina Shah (host)
• Simon Sinek
• Seth Godin — "work is not working"
• "Becoming the Boss" — Linda A. Hill, Harvard Business Review (January 2007)
• Prina's self-coaching journal

You can find Prina at:

Website: https://www.prinashah.com

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/prinashah/

Check out my services and offerings https://www.digbyscott.com/

Subscribe to my newsletter https://www.digbyscott.com/subscribe

Follow me on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/digbyscott/

legacy really makes people panic thinking but I'm not at the end of my career yet I'm not dead yet to which I say well can we just reframe that whole thinking as a consideration you can leave a legacy every freaking day if you're a graduate if you're a leader if you're an executive you know if you're a change manager whatever you are you do you but what is that you in terms of the legacy that you want to leave

you

There's a particular discomfort that catches up with successful leaders. You you've hit the milestones, you've built a real career, and yet something's still missing.

This week I'm talking with Prina Shah. She's a coach, consultant, trainer, speaker, and the author of Make Work Meaningful, How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy. And we get into what legacy really means, what it is, what it's not, why leaders become the bottleneck in their own teams, and how to build something that lasts. Just a quick note, we recorded this on Prina's podcast called Ways to Change Your Workplace, and we both loved it, so we're both sharing it.

on our respective podcast channels. I'm Digby Scott and this is Dig Deeper, a podcast where I have conversations with depth that will change the way you lead.

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Ways to Change Your Workplace podcast. And this is a podcast for my guest, Digby Scott's podcast, which is called Dig Deeper. We're sharing the love. We're cross-pollinating here, Digby. Hello, how are you?

Nice to see you, Prina. Yeah, I'm good. I'm excited. I love this idea of let's get two podcasts in one.

Two birds, one stone and all that, Now, Digby, I'm actually very, very genuinely excited to speak with you because you come highly recommended by someone who I highly respect. So if I may share our connection. So long, long ago, I worked with an amazing manager who completely changed my career. I will stay that to this day. And I hold on to him like he is a mentor of mine, Mr. James Miller.

Got it. Exactly.

who I understand you used to work with years and years and years ago when you were in Perth.

We had a business together called The Catalyst Group. was three of us. So James, Jesse Lamond and me. And I think you're right about James. He just has this sort of still wisdom is infectious to be around and not in a really charismatic, like in your face way, but in this kind of really grounded, pretty quiet way. I remember the questions he would ask. He would just stop you in your tracks. What do you reckon it was about James?

that you say he was this incredible manager. What do you reckon he did for you?

so much. So he got me to think bigger by asking those questions. It wouldn't be just a why question. He'd sit, he'd ponder, then he'd just expand, you know, from a questioning perspective. He's brilliant on a podcast, is he not? Because he's such a big, big thinker. And then the other thing is, I'll be very honest, he opened me up to practical philosophy. So back in the day, when he was my manager, he was going to the School of Philosophy in Western Australia.

I was like, what is this stuff? I need a little bit more in my life. Digby, I've studied sociology and social psychology, so I'm just constantly always learning and just observing society in the way of the workplace. And James went to this thing called the School of Philosophy. So I became a student. So I was a student. I would have to say, Digby, for years and years and years, as a human, I have developed and learned so much from that. And that's thanks to the gift of James.

Yeah, he's also not afraid to go his own way, right? So the School of Philosophy, I mean, that's not kind of like your MBA. They used to have a program here at Curtin University in Perth called the Master of Leadership and Management and included papers on philosophy. And I think that we need more of that in our thinking. It's interesting, my son, who my youngest son, he's 19, he's doing second year university in Dunedin at University of Otago and he is doing his degree in

neuroscience and philosophy. He's kind of doing this kind of hybrid thing. I said, why are you doing that? Why those angles? And he goes, well, they're both trying to answer the same question from different angles. It's like math, that is wise for a 19 year old, We're both interested also in this idea of legacy and impact and what it takes to create that. And interesting, you let off with James as you you think about the impact that he's had on you.

I that.

This would be what 20 years ago, something like that. Now you still speak of him like, you know, it was yesterday, the impact that it's had. So when we think about impact and legacy, what do we mean? How do you define that? Because you're speaking of it. How do you define that?

a whole chapter on it in my book which is called Make Work Meaningful How to Create a Culture That Leaves a Legacy. Now DB, we are very much taught that when you go into a workplace you've got your vision, you've got your mission, you've got your values, you've got your performance and development plan. It's the system that we have. But then one of the things that I've really seen and I don't know if you come across this a lot as well is I'm working with executives often at the apex of their game, of their career and there's something missing from a heart perspective.

Generally speaking not with everyone but with the ones I've really seen I've tried to tap into this thing What is it that's missing like yeah, you've achieved all of your successes. You've achieved brilliant brilliant things, but there's a bar There's still something missing that intangible thing that's missing. So that's what I'm trying to tap into So the first section of my book as she focuses on legacy and the legacy that you want to live in the workplace

And now when I talk about this, when I wrote about this as well, you know, I've briefed a million people when you write a book, it's like, ah, I was all in on this. The word legacy really makes people panic thinking, but I'm not at the end of my career yet. I'm not dead yet. To which I say, well, can we just reframe that whole thinking as a consideration? You can leave a legacy every frigging day. If you're a graduate, if you're a leader, if you're an executive, you know, if you're a change manager, whatever you are.

You do you, but what is that you in terms of the legacy that you want to leave? It could be a legacy for this project. It could be a legacy for this team. I spoke at an event. I did a keynote speech last week. In fact, it was. this legacy activity with the audience is a bit interactive and people had different responses. So all within the same industry. Okay. One person said, I want to leave a good succession plan for whoever takes over this work that I take great pride in. Another person said,

I want to make this industry even better. And then another person said, I want to do stuff for my organisational culture, which will leave it better than when I started. So every single one of us has a different driver beyond your vision, mission, values, blah, blah, blah, blah. We can copy and paste them to most organisations, I would say. But that legacy thing and the thing that's you, that's the agency that you do have. So what is it that you have?

Why does it matter? Why do we even need to think about the idea of legacy? Cause I think mission purpose values, et cetera. Yes. Get that. Why do we need to even bother? Maybe another way of asking the question is how do your decisions change day to day when you're thinking about lasting impact, when you're thinking about legacy versus if you don't have that.

So spoiler alert, we are going to be working for a long, long, long, long, long time yet, are we not? So we can be that robot and just play the system, or we can create the system ourselves. That's one thing. OK, so if you think about the leader who spoke at the conference I was at last week who says, want to create a beautiful succession plan that leaves my work in good hands, his decision making would be completely along those lines. Like, OK.

So if I make this decision, it will either enable or disable Digby to be my successor or to do the right stuff. I call it your North Star. Some people call it your purpose, that kind of thing. But purpose, think, has been overdone. Thank you, Simon Sinek. I think legacy, it's this big scary thing which can change throughout our phases of careers, Digby. So, you know, when I was a baby grad, my legacy would have been to learn and give back. So it's about serving.

My legacy now that I've learned a heap of stuff, you the best of stuff is to make work better for everybody. It evolves as we evolve as humans, you know.

Yeah, there's a term in sport, which is you go where you look, you know, it's like I surf wherever I turn my head to look is where my body will follow. So if I'm looking at the part of the way that's going to smash me, I'll probably cover there. But if I'm looking at the part of the way that I can ride without getting nailed, then I'm more likely to make it. And there's something I love about this idea of you're looking.

at the lasting impact and you're looking, actually, this is what matters, then I reckon you make decisions that are in service of that as opposed to in service of, short-term looking good or being the hero or whatever it might be. To me, that's a forcing function about where you decide to put your attention.

Going back to the executives that I talk about who are or were feeling that funk, it's because I hadn't worked on that thing yet compared to the executives who are happier, you know, at the stage of their career that they're in, they've worked on their stuff and they've worked on, okay, well, I don't necessarily need to be the CFO. However, if I do blah, blah, blah, blah, this is what's going to fulfil me. Yeah. And as a result, perhaps you get to, you know, the heights of your career.

Exactly.

Maybe we reverse this all together.

I'm at a stage in my career where I'm comfortable with how I show up day to day. And, you know, I know I'm good at what I do and I reckon a lot of people listening will be in this boat. It's like, you know, I've got my technical chops down and I know how to do what I do. And it's like the question for what and over what time period. I'm starting to ask more questions like that. So it's more moments. I had a moment years ago where I was a cost is

too strong a word, but I was in Melbourne and this lady came up to me on the street and she said, Digby Scott, thanks for being amazing 25 years ago. is the context for this? My mind's going everywhere. And she said, I know you were a trainer for me on this graduate training course I was a participant on and you really rock my world. And as you open up my world to what's possible, there was in, I was an accountant and she goes,

And now I'm a partner of this firm and I've made this my career and you gave me a great start. And there was that lovely long sort of ripple effect over 25 years that I had no idea. And it's funny because it is kind of like a paradox. You might not even know what your impact is, but I think it's important to have an intent to have it because otherwise, like you say, it becomes a little hollow. It's like, yeah, I'm doing this stuff, but for what?

And, I love the idea of plan to seed for a tree that you'll never sit under. If you can live in that way, I think there's something about where you focus on nurturing, you focus on building capability. You don't focus on just fighting fires the whole time, you know, and there's something about that, which I think this at the end of day, humans want that.

Completely. It is shifting from ambition to meaning. We are all ambitious creatures, absolutely. So at certain parts of our career, I am sure, right? But that can only get us so far. We have to do this with people. It's a collective thing. It's not a solo thing as well. So in terms of defining your legacy goal, I've got a bit of an acronym. So the longevity aspect of it. How will my decisions contribute to the lasting positive impact of what I'm doing? So L-E, E stands for essence.

How can I ensure my leadership reflects my authentic self? And then G, genuine. How are my intentions and decisions consistently genuine? That's your check. And then A, awareness. How does my understanding of time's finite nature shape my choices? C, consequences. What are the long-term consequences of my decisions? And then Y, yearning. What do I yearn to transform?

And that's the thing that people haven't been challenged with or questioned. I've got the case study. It's a really good, bad case study, right? This person was recruited to bring about efficiencies within the workplace and they did so, but they didn't consider the bigger picture. And then they got the worst reputation ever within the workplace. So we do this because someone else has told us to, rather than...

Critically thinking why, what, well how can I help with this? What would my version of this be? Right? Rather than being that puppet. So I ask people, are you the driver of your career or the passenger?

Sometimes you've got to be the passenger. You've got to allow things to unfold and you can't control it all. But if you're only the passenger, then you are really subject to the forces at play. Yeah, I like that. Love your acronym. That's really cool. They all tap a different part of wisdom. There's nothing small about any of those letters.

huge, huge questions. I've got a question for you. So I've been listening into your podcast. And one of the things you talk about is energy and energy management, right? So I talk about this at length in my workshops. And initially it sounds a bit woo-woo, you know, to some people because they're still not into this kind of talking or this kind of consideration of managing your energy. What is energy management to you? I won't tell you what my perception is.

So let's get both big picture and practical. So Einstein said, energy is all there is. There is nothing else, paraphrasing. And he's right. Everything is energy. So, okay, well, let's not work against that. Let's work with that. If everything is energy, well, why don't we tap it? Yeah. That's the big picture stuff. The practical stuff is, are you going to be more effective when you're energised or when you're depleted? I mean, it's a pretty obvious answer, right? And so

Paying attention to energy is fundamental, particularly when you're in a leadership role, because people are looking, your words have weight, and therefore your energy has weight. I know for me that when I'm not necessarily fizzing with extraversion, but I'm bringing a certain sort of presence, that I just know that it's going to carry more in the conversations I have, the ripple effect that happens as a result. Now here's the guts of it.

If I focus on managing my energy as a priority, as opposed to managing my time, then I am more likely to be able to create what I want to create in the world. Today, for example, I had two meetings with potential new organisational clients today, both in person, which required me to show up, look good, be present, have a half-intelligent conversation. I prepared for that. I didn't.

rush around beforehand, trying to get a million things done. I gave myself some space. arrived 10, 15 minutes early before found a good place to sit. And we met in a hotel lobby for the first one. You know, that does sound hippie, but got in the zone, right? Just sort of presence. And it's those little practices that I think allow us to be present, bring the energy that's required. Because when we have energy, another, I've used the word presence a few times in here. It's like, I think they're interchangeable. When you're present.

then you can respond more adeptly to what happens in the conversation. So it's just all about that. When I think of energy, that's what I think about.

You've answered this question in a beautiful way. I feel as a facilitator or as a consultant, right? So now if we bring ourselves into the workplace, so you've talked about being prepared for that conversation, giving myself some space. I got in the zone. I have little practices. If I'm a manager within the workplace, I was saying, yeah, yeah, blah to all of this because of the fact that my diary is back to back with those meetings. You can say all of this, but what about me?

How do we make this practical for people who are within the workplace, who are battling with their diaries, battling with people above them and trying to advocate for people beneath them as well? You know, that meat in the middle of the sandwich.

So how do you do that? I reckon there's two things you want to practice. One is know your outcome. So for every interaction, be really clear on what your outcome might and define that as a thing you want to create something that's positive rather than I don't want this bad thing to happen. Well, okay, what's the opposite of that? So what's the thing I want to have happen? I want them to agree with me. I want to hear their perspective. I want to get my point across, whatever it might be in a way that they hear me. So define your outcome. So that's number one.

Number two, was like, yeah, the back to back to back. There's something about creating the tiniest circuit breaker between those things. I do a thing called the door framing exercise. Now, when you're in a physical office location, it might be physically walking through the door into your next meeting. If you're in a virtual environment, it's the door into the portal of Teams or Zoom or whatever it might be. It's before you go in to that room, either physically or virtually.

I have an intent for how do I want to be and what is my outcome. So be clear on, want to be calm. I want to be focused and your outcome might be whatever I said, you know, the outcome could be be defined on that. And as you walk through the door, just say that to yourself. I want to be heard or I want to hear them and I'm going to be present. What did that take me five seconds to say? If you have that discipline, we have that practice, then you can do eight back to backs.

Nothing, yeah.

You might be whacked by the end of it, but you will have given yourself the best chance of getting the outcome you want and staying present because you know what you want rather than just the swirling around. There are a couple of really practical things. mean, I'd love to say don't have back to backs, but the reality is it happens. Do you want to build on that? What do you do and what do you see works?

For myself, I was that manager, which is why I'm asking. So I manage many HR teams, stressy teams, and you know, it's quite firefighting as well. So for myself, I used to do things like I had to have a lunch break and get the hell out first off on walk.

Energy management right there.

right? Energy management, one of what I needed to get the hell out and just get fresh air during my lunch break and just know people at that time. Like I didn't want to talk with anyone because I knew my whole day would be talking. The other thing I used to do as well is I had a Post-it, simple Post-it. I just did a symbol of a pause button just to remind me. And that just took seconds, right? In between meetings, I'd come back to my desk. I'd look at that like, okay, pre now.

The other thing that's always my friend is drinking lots because when someone's talking...

water you're talking about,

Yep, someone's talking and I'm drinking so I can shush and not interject as well. The other big thing for me as well is because I have so many ideas and I can get very excited is I will take notes. I am a note taker that keeps me present. I love that you mentioned being present as well, managing my energy in that respect. I had to be present for all of those conversations because they were really freaking important conversations. I couldn't drop the ball either. Pen and paper, my friends, for my brain.

So guess for each one of us is working out what energises you, what depletes you. And ideally trying not to rely on caffeine too much. That's the other thing. I cut out all coffee, tea, everything, because that was stimulating me.

I was going to say, how did that make a difference?

I was a tea drinker, so strong Indian chai was my thing and I had to have it otherwise I was just limp and just a zombie. But I realised I was reliant on it. It was a stimulant for me. So when I went off it, I had withdrawal symptoms like I could not believe, grumpiness in the morning, foggy headedness, that kind of stuff. But then I found another thing. So herbal teas are my thing now, or water is my thing now, right? So I've got another thing.

But what that enabled me to do is to get back to this energy source level, my own, rather than the stimulants one. Because I found in the afternoon, I would just have a cuppa, and then I'd have a cup of tea or whatever, but I'd be buzzing at night, you know? And that would just make me crappy for the morning after because I wouldn't sleep well. So I've seen a lot of people either rely on, you know, caffeine or sugar a lot as well, those sugar highs in the afternoon.

But yeah, I tried not to. An apple a day was my thing and still is my thing. That's my sugar high.

I love that you've got such disciplined but really simple practices. You know, I love how the default meeting time is 25 minutes or 50 minutes rather than half an hour or 60. And just that little force space between meetings and linking to that, I love this saying, leave the room with nothing to do. Meaning that if you can use that five or 10 minutes after you're done to

action any things that you have come out of that conversation, that meeting, and you can do them there and then. What it does, and I try and do as much as I can, is it frees up mental bandwidth because I don't have to carry that around as a thing to do in the future. I've just done it. It's more likely to be fresh. can just do it then. It's easier. Those little spaces between, you know, there's the before coming in, like, okay, door framing, and then there's the after, the action taking. You can just do the smallest little thing that

frees your headspace up for whatever's coming next and you can stay present. It's interesting how we've gone from the big ideas of lasting impact to this kind of minutiae, isn't it? Like how you run your days is how you run your life. So, you know, it makes sense to go here.

Because I've seen many a team rely on the leader too much. And then that leader is the constant person. We create a co-dependency then as well, which is a very unhealthy codependency on the leader. And then the leader feels that they can never break or stop. It's just this vicious cycle. Have you come across it yourself?

I'm remembering a time I was national manager for a recruitment company and I took a break from work. was full on. I was the big boss and I went away snowboarding for, I can't remember it a long weekend. It was a week or something. And I thought, okay, I'm just going to be out of contact for this whole time. Right. And I did sell some of the office. I'm going, this is where I'm going to be. I don't want to be contacted. And I remember getting to the top of one of the chair lists.

And the lifty came out, you know, and they kind of like, got their cabins there and said, you Digby Scott? I'm like, yeah. Cause, a message for you. Can you go and call the office immediately? There's so there's an emergency. My heart sank into my guts. It's just like, how did they track me down? How they even know who I was in the lift, but they tracked me down. And I'm remember that feeling of just.

really resenting myself for getting myself in this position where I was the one that they needed to solve a problem. How the hell did I get there? It really put a dampener on the holiday, you know, as you can imagine. And I just felt the weight of the world come down on me again, you know, trying to get away from it. But at the end of the day, I had some choices. I could have set things up.

really differently. I could have been really clear on delegations. This is your responsibility, your delegation, whatever happens, I'll back you, that kind of thing. But I didn't do that. I was really about that and I didn't create any sense of clarity. So I was like, well, DB's the guy who's going to solve this. The end of the day, there's a little bit of ego at play, I reckon, looking at it from a distance now. But I suspect there's a lot of people who are in similar situations. They become the go-to. But tell me what you see.

When we get too dependent on a leader, what is happening there that creates that do you think?

When you were talking, had an aha moment. Service as servant leadership, that kind of stuff. I think it's a double-edged sword, depending on how you define service. So you were, you your example, that was servant leadership at its worst. You were there on holidays. Thanks, you're on holiday, still serving the company. Good one there, you know. Versus servant leadership of, I know my boundaries, the healthy aspect of working.

So there's that as an aspect. Then the other thing as well, definitely an ego thing. And I've been there, done that myself as well, especially when I was climbing the ladder more so like, yes, everyone wants to come to me. You feel a great sense of inflated ego, but then you come back to a whole heap of work, which is really freaking dangerous for you and can lead to burnout and has for many a person as well. But from a systemic perspective,

Organisations are working in a very, very lean, lean, lean manner. We've only got the one Digby and we've only got the one Prina. So that's all new now, which it's a bit dangerous from a risk management perspective of an organisation as well if we're relying just on these people, because if these people get knocked over by a bus, then good luck, mate. You know, all of this tacit knowledge that's in our head is just going to go. So then the other thing I started to do, because I was that leader myself as well,

was to try and upskill my team. I'm very mindful that people are at different capability levels, all of that kind of stuff. So baby steps in that respect as well. So I tried to be more solutions focused with my people. Like, yeah, HR, come to me with a problem. And they will come to me with every freaking problem. They say, stop, stop. Come to me with a problem now. Tell me why it's a problem. What are the risks about this? What are the consequences of this?

What are your ideas on how to address this? And are there any budgetary implications as well? So as soon as I started to push back to my team to say, yeah, come to me with an issue, but think about it first. And let's have a different conversation. Things completely changed. And then I wasn't that bottleneck, Digby. I wasn't that, you know, the bottleneck of, God, let me have a think about this and sit on it for a week or two weeks whilst, you know, this fire is burning. For example, work fire.

Instead that person had the idea anyway, I mean you talked about it before people know the answers often you know it within yourselves So why not just use our people in that respect anyway, and just listen to them but give them the kind of tools and Give them the permission to say hey Prina I actually think we messed up here But this is a better way of doing and this is how much it's gonna cost may I please have your approval boom?

And even with the cost thing, I mean, at some point you can go, well, depending on your context, the organisation you're in, you know, you've got delegation to spend on X thousand dollars or whatever it might be. It's kind of obvious you're talking. So one is you said upskill my team, which I totally agree with, you know, that's the gateway to everything. What about if you could upskill your team to upskill themselves? As in you help them to set up a learning system that you don't even need to drive. You know, you're not.

the go-to for the coaching either they can coach each other. And it reminds me of an article from was that Linda Hill, she wrote in Harvard Business School long time ago called Becoming the Boss. Talked about these four myths of being a manager. And one of them is this myth that the key relationship that a manager needs to be focused on is the one-to-one relationship between them and each of their team members. She said it's a myth. We need to focus is on cultivating relationships between team members.

And so they become this sort of hyper resilient, anti-fragile group that becomes a learning microcosm of itself rather than you being the one who's the coach. I thought that's cool. You know, there's leverage in that. So this idea of your primary focus should be on creating a learning system rather than you being the learning catalyst or learning coach.

So that was one thing that came up. And the other one is what gets in the way. I reckon we reward heroic leadership. We give out awards to, you know, most effective leader or I'm going to some awards night in Auckland in a couple of weeks time where it's going to be all these awards given. I'm like, I'm going to be listening for the story about the award because if it's about how amazing this individual is for

Don't worry.

their expertise or whatever, that's reinforcing a stereotype. But what if it's, this person was instrumental in creating the conditions for the team to do incredible work. Now that's a different story. And I think we want to reward teams more than we reward individuals. And there's a different quality of thinking and discipline that goes with that.

Create a learning catalyst for the team. I've got an example. So when I was working in HR with one generalist HR team, it was big. There was all sorts of stuff happening constantly and I couldn't have one-to-ones with everyone regularly, but my people really needed me. So Monday morning, we'd have a work in progress meeting. We'd bash out what we're working on, what we're finding really difficult, what we need help with, anything that they need help from me and anything that we need to report to the top.

before things hit the fan. But because of that conversation, was time constraints are a really good thing as well. So, okay, team, let's bang this out. What's happening? Blah, blah, blah, blah. We all got into the cadence of it. Then you would see John helping Chris out and Chris helping Amy out and say, hey, we actually did that in my other organisation. I actually don't have capacity this morning, so let me pick that up for you. So rather than me being that conduit for everything getting done,

they were just getting shit done themselves. That was something else, But that was a result of them being open and honest and vulnerable and really sharing what they needed help with and me breaking the culture of that achievement focus of what are we winning? What are we doing? And clapping for, you know, the highest achieving person.

What do you reckon it takes for a leader to get out of their own way in terms of their ego and need to be seen to be driving results or looking good? Because I see this all the time. It's like, well, I need to be the one who's in the trenches with them. And I get it, but I reckon there's a big limitation with that as well.

say yes and no, absolutely be there for your people, advocate for your people. But if you've got brilliant people who are working for you, why not just trust them and let them do the thing? And you step back. So stepping back as well, you know, from a leadership perspective, none of us have been trained in, you know, taking our foot off the leadership pedal. That's just anti anything leadership development, generally speaking. So for you to inform someone of that, you know, one of the things I talk about is the golden rule of working.

Ideally, the golden rule of working is you only work if you're a leader at 70 % capacity, because 30%, you're going to be attending to the things that hitting the fan. When I say that to leaders, like, dream on, Prina. Ha ha ha ha. It's like, well, imagine if you did have that 30 % free, so you could attend to those fires. You could have that critical conversation, or you could go and celebrate someone's brilliant hard work for what they haven't achieved yet, but you're motivating them to do it now.

I think it's really revisiting the way we work. Who is it? Seth Godin. He talks about the fact that work is not working. So if we really look at that fact and look at it from our own individual perspectives, why don't we look at what isn't working for us right now? And then try and just redo the system in that respect. That's an option.

I hear a lot of people talk about, you know, I've been in meetings all day, when are I going to get my real work done? And there's something about redefining work. And if work can also involve space to reflect, to respond, to stand back and see the system, not just the detail, then there's something really powerful about that. But I think we have some cultural issues around that because to redefine work, maybe I can, but if the culture I'm in doesn't value that sort of work.

then it's going to be pretty hard for me to do it. So it starts from the top because you know, culture gets set from the top. So to be able to go give permission explicitly for reflection time, it's actually with one of the meetings I had today, they were just talking about that we tried to roll out this program where we were getting leaders to be coaches, et cetera, et cetera. But then we went, yeah, but all the people we trained are already at 100 % capacity. They had no chance to do any of this. So it's got to be set from the top.

Okay, you have capacity to do this. This is now part of your job description.

something that I'm trying to do which I have been doing for a while now. So I applied this myself. Self coaching. Friday afternoon 30 minutes. I have a journal now so I'll put links into the show notes. I've got a freebie if you want to do a freebie or I've got a journal because I like writing. So I do this every week. Friday afternoon. What am I learning this week? Dump it down. How am I right now? How has my week been? Dump it down. What were my wins this week and what has felt like success?

We tend to jump away from success and now wins because we're on to the next thing, on to the next thing. And that, you know, it was completely me in my corporate days. We also have crap in the week. So what are my challenges and triggers this week? And what can I do to mitigate them? Hello, this is a mirror mirror on the wall just for five minutes even. But then what do I want to be held accountable for next week? And then that goes into my to-do list.

I can really bullshit myself, Dig B. I can say, yes, everything is great, but often it's not, right? So digging deeper. What needs planning? What important things have no action steps attached to them? Do I need help? Do I need to delegate? Who do I need to engage with to make this happen? What's stopping me? How am I going to celebrate once I achieve what I need to? Half an hour. We don't need someone's permission, really.

What do you reckon if you had to pick one or two of those questions as the go-tos that made the biggest difference? What would you say they are?

my gosh, for me personally, what were my wins this week and what has felt like success? I'm quite speedy, I just move on. I need to stop. That helps me to stop. And then the last one, what actually needs planning? What important things have no action steps attached to them? That's a Prina, be accountable question, or anyone who's doing this, be accountable question.

I've heard that question before, what important things have no action steps attached to them? That's great because otherwise it's just an intention rather than an action. That's really cool. I love that one.

Thank you. So it can be done. Is there anything in this brilliant conversation we've gone here, there and everywhere that we may have missed in your opinion, Digby?

There's so much to talk about, I'm a big believer in like, actually here's some nuggets of wisdom folks to listen to and to chew on. So why don't we leave it there? And so how do we find each other? How do people find you?

on LinkedIn. Prina Shah is my name. I'd say that LinkedIn is my office and Instagram is my playground. So you'll probably see behind the scenes stuff there and lots of food stuff by the way. I like food. So yeah, if you want to get to know personal me, that's Instagram, prina.shah, LinkedIn, professional me, you'll see the professional version on there. Otherwise, my website is prinashah.com. Easy as that. And Digby, how about yourself?

pretty simple digbyscott.com is where you can see what I'm up to. LinkedIn is I like the way you say that's your kind of office. I would say that I blend the two because a lot of my messages around life by design as well as lasting impact work. And so I'm pretty much sharing anything I'm up to, all the good things that are helpful on LinkedIn. So you can find me there, Digby Scott. And yeah, I tend not to do the Insta thing. I just tend to keep it simple. Love it. Yeah, it works for me.

Yeah. And I'll put a few things in the show notes from what I've been writing, writing and just picked up on here. So I've got this little article that could be useful around, know, forget time management, master these disciplines instead, which is all about energy management and intention management and attention management. So that could be a good little kind of framework for people as well. Awesome. Thank you.

Thank for entertaining my thoughts. It's been such a pleasure.

It's been great. See you soon.

There are a few things from that conversation with Prina that I'm still chewing on. The first is this idea that you can leave a legacy every day, not at the end of your career, not when you've made it. Right now, in this project that you're leading with this team, I reckon that reframe feels really important because I think a lot of us quietly file the word legacy under something to think about later, and later never quite arrives.

The second idea is something Prina said almost in passing that the leaders she works with who feel that funk, sense of something missing, they're often the ones who haven't yet worked out what's actually going to fulfil them beyond their title or their achievements. And for the ones who have worked that out, I reckon they tend to show up differently. And I wonder what would change for you if you had that clarity right now. And then the question I'd

genuinely hadn't heard before was what important things have no action steps attached to them? I love that because it's not just about doing more. It's about making sure that the things that actually matter don't just stay as intentions, add an action. There's some things I'm sitting with and I'm wondering what's landing for you. And I think perhaps the thing you could do there, if this has got you thinking is go and have a conversation about the idea of lasting impact of legacy.

What does it mean to lead in that way every day? And of course, share this podcast with someone else if you reckon it'll help them on their leadership journey. I'm Digby Scott. This is Dig Deeper. Until next time, go well.