Does an adventure require facing danger and seeing the world, or can you simply go on an adventure around your living room?

In this week’s podcast we discuss adventure. What exactly is an adventure and how do you do it properly? We attempt to unravel what makes an adventure interesting, why we undertake them in the first place and what their essential elements are. We analyse the structure of adventure stories, debate Shannon entropy theory and share some of our own favourite adventures and most loved stories.

A few things we mentioned in this podcast:

• The Hero’s Journey
• The return trip effect

For more information on Aleph Insights visit our website https://alephinsights.com or to get in touch about our podcast email [email protected]

Hello and welcome to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast produced by me, Fraser McGruer for Aleph Insights. In this series of podcasts we take a look at interesting topics and discuss what we think they tell us about analysis and decision making. I'm here with Chris Lear, Nick Hare, and Jordan Fermanis of Aleph Insights and this week we're discussing what is an adventure and how do you do it properly. Chris, you seem... I hesitate to come to you because if I think of the word adventure and I see what I see before me... This is a calumny. Yeah, sorry. You do not seem like the most adventurous person to me, however, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to come to you first. Let us talk this through. What is an adventure and how do you do it properly, Chris?

Thank you for that introduction. Yeah, obviously I think of myself as a massive adventurer, but this subject was recommended by my brother, who is strictly more adventurous than I am.

And he's in the Congo at the moment, isn't he?

That's not actually true. He's not currently on a major overseas adventure. He's currently working as a teacher in Sussex, but he has done some adventuring in his life and he has spent some time considering what makes adventures more interesting. And he's also got some friends who have some opinions about this. And so he's been considering what it is about adventures and why it is that an adventure is sort of a bit more fun when things go a bit wrong or on what kind of things are adventurous things to go wrong and what kind of things are just no fun when they go wrong. So that's the question is, what is an adventure? How do you do it properly? And a little bit of maybe, why do we do it at all? Or do some people think it's a terrible idea? I'm kind of quite pro-adventure personally.

Okay. And indeed, just to be clear, so that's why I came to you. As part of that fact, you obviously look massively adventurous, because your brother has suggested this as a topic. Well, look, let's keep on with you, Chris. So you posed a couple of questions there. I think you said, what is an adventure? There was stuff about, well, what would we want to go wrong and what not? And yeah, what is it that goes wrong that would be good? What would go wrong that would be bad? And then the final thing, well, why anyway? I think you more or less said. So pick one of those as a springboard and off you go.

Well, I'll pick something adjacent, which is to do with sort of preparation. There are people who offer sort of adventure holidays, adventure trips, which actually are a packaged version of adventure, which isn't very adventurous. Right. Because they're all planned and prepared and you troop along and you're not really responsible for it. Somebody else is like, if you sign on for a sort of adventure holiday or something, somebody else is responsible and they manage the adventure, really. They manage the risk and all that kind of thing. So somehow it's only really, it feels to me like it's only really an adventure is only really adventurous. If somehow you're in charge, but also somehow you haven't quite prepared it to the max or there's something which could go wrong or there's some way in which, and there's a little quote from, in fact, I think a friend of my brother's who said, apparently, the less prepared, the better the adventure.

Definitely. I don't know. I think you could take that to an extreme because with zero preparation, you probably are going to, you know, not get to the really the best bit of the adventure because something will go wrong before you get there. I don't know if you went for zero preparation. But that's the kind of thing that an unadventurous person like you would say. I'm not talking about managing out every possible risk, but I'm saying without the proper preparation, you aren't going to, you aren't going to be able to manage the things that you want to go wrong. Yeah. Not sure. Come on. Preparing for an adventure is the fun. There has to be a phase where you're packing your knapsack, you know, and you've got two days of provisions and you've got your trusty Bowie knife.

You've got to have a plan. Right. You've got to have a plan. And I'll give you an example of an adventure. And this, I think, was quite adventurous. And this was my brother's adventure. He had a friend who he met on the internet who didn't know terribly well, a guy called Richard Britton. And Richard Britton said to Mikey, my brother, he said, well, do you fancy walking to Jerusalem on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem? Mikey was like, yeah, I'll do that. And I think about a week later, he left and he took, he took a rucksack with some things and Richard Britton was roughly as well-prepared. And between them, they had about 20 pounds in currency and they started in, um... Did they get as far as Folkestone or something? They started in Belgium, I think. Okay. And after about a fortnight, Richard bailed and Mikey carried on on his own. But he spent his 20 quid or whatever it was as soon as he could, because he thought having the money in his, you know, made it less fun. And you can read his, yeah, you can read his blog. It's still on the internet. The whole expedition was planned in as much as he knew where he wanted to end up, but he had no idea how to get there. So he kept meeting Germans who were horrified by his lack of preparation, but they didn't feed him very well. And then later on, he met people who thought it was quite normal to be doing this sort of thing, but then they, but at least they fed him, but they didn't give him much map advice. So, you know.

I presume that he probably looks back at that as a, as a good adventure, a good quality adventure, I would have thought. And did he make it to Jerusalem, of course?

Well, no, because he reached the border and the people at the border of Israel looked at him and asked him a few questions and then marked his passport, something like, we will never let this guy into our country ever. And, but Richard flew out and to, or somehow joined and finished the, whatever it was, it was another, it was, it was like a day or something, the final, the final segment, which he didn't manage. But the, also the people who were for, there was a blog, which I followed. And this is, this is a sort of an angle on adventure. Yeah. I used to read the blog and enjoy it. Yeah. But the day when the two, there was one day when he got turned away at some border. Yeah. And just, he managed to solve this problem, but he wrote a long blog about how he just sat down and wept at the edge of the road kind of thing. That got a massive amount of views. And the one where he got turned away at Israel and completely, and the whole thing, you know, went up in flames, that got the most, the most hits. So the, the, the disasters make the, make the stories and interest the, the audience.

I think, I think there's something important in not achieving the goal you thought you wanted. Yeah. You know, but, but perhaps getting the, the old cliche of the true treasure being the friends you make along the way. I think, you know, there is something about that. I think we like that. There's such a common theme. Absolutely. I suspect he got turned away because they're very careful in Israel about people with messianic complexes. And maybe he looked, I know what your brother looks like and maybe he looked. Yeah. Maybe he looked a bit too Jesus-y for them. They thought we can't, we don't want to be trouble. Not another one.

Well, also there was the Quran in his rucksack. And the, and, and yeah, the whole big beard thing.

By then he was speaking fluent Arabic.

And there was, there were a few, he also didn't, he, he answered their questions in a. In a politic way. In a slightly adventurous way. Yeah. There you go. Living true to the adventure.

Before we continue, there's lots more to delve into here. Just quick as a knee-jerk thing. How adventurous are you on a scale of one to ten? One doesn't want to leave home, it's a bit dangerous. Ten is off, sort of, you know, shark diving in the Pacific or something. Jordan, one to ten?

I think I used to be maybe eight or nine, but I'm probably a six or seven now.

Oh, good Lord. Okay. Eight, nine's quite a lot. Chris? I'll take a six. Right. Nick? I think within certain, a certain understanding of what an adventure is. High, but, but not as high as Jordan. I think six and a half might be a realist. So if you're a six and a half. Yeah. Because I know you better than I, than we guys know each other, than us guys. So if you're a six and a half, let's use that as the scale for a minute. I reckon I'm a seven or eight. Oh, you've got to be higher than that. You reckon? Because you do, like, I think one of the reasons I've become, that number will have gone down is having kids and like more responsibilities. Yeah. But whereas you don't care about that, you carry on doing the stuff, the irresponsible things. So you're a nine, at least a nine. I think I was once a nine, but I don't think I am now. But I'm like an eight, maybe. All right. Okay. Well, let's, I mean, I know we've got those questions, but just someone weigh in with something. Jordan or Nick? Let's hear Jordan and then Nick.

Well, I think, yeah, when I was listening to Chris there, I think one of the things that I was reminded of was, I think adventures have to contain some kind of spontaneity to them. And I think the fact that someone said, oh, let's just walk to Jerusalem. And he was like, yeah. And just went there sort of unprepared. I think that there's something about that, that sort of feels adventury. And I think an adventure needs to have some kind of impulsiveness to it. And I sort of, yeah. And I think a lack of preparation is actually key to an adventure. I don't think it has to mean that you have no plan at all. Maybe like you just have the bare boat, the sort of general outline of a plan. But I think lack of preparation means adventures await.

I think it's that kind of, you don't want to know too much. It's the unknown.

Yeah.

And adventure kind of linked a bit, in my opinion. Nick? Okay. Actually that ties into a theory that I want to present in a bit. Sure. But before we get to the theory, let's just look at the sort of, I don't want to say data as such, but let's look at what are the components of adventure stories, because surely that's what we need to draw on here. It's probably the best adventures are the ones that most closely resemble adventure stories, which is why we write adventure stories in the way we do. And of course, the classic text. It's a kind of hero story, really. The hero's journey by, well, The Hero with a Thousand Faces is the book by Joseph Campbell, which is sort of almost like an anthropological study of stories that people tell. And all throughout the world, every culture has adventure stories and they have these, well, multiple stages which you can divide up. But I would say if you want to think of it in modern terms, it's the three act structure of any film. But he called them departure, initiation and return. Now, departure. OK, this is this is and I think this goes back to Jordan's point about impulsiveness and about the fact that, you know, Mikey was sort of brought on this adventure, is it starts with the call to adventure, which is not something you can just decide. Right. And I think that's that sort of feels to me like an important ingredient is that there you're being pulled on this adventure by something. It's a need to get something or achieve an outcome or finish a quest, slay a dragon. It's not totally your choice. You know, there is something pulling you out of of your being excited already by the everyday lifestyle. Now that ends that ends with what Joseph Campbell called the belly of the whale. But I will say I think the crossing of the threshold. And I think if you think about the Lord of the Rings, it's when they you know, when they are when they you could perhaps it's when they leave, you know, Hobbiton, but it's when they leave the Shire. Yeah, exactly. It's that there's a boundary that you cross. And this is like you've never been this far before. And then and then you have the tests. So you've got to be tested. And this is where I think our desire for things to go wrong comes in, because you have to fail some of these tests. It's no good passing the test. There's a word for people who pass all the tests on an adventure, and it's a Mary Sue. And it's something that people complain about in in when you have a hero who's too good like so people have said that Ray from the new Star Wars films is a Mary Sue because she's just immediately really, really good at everything. She's amazing at the Force and amazing at lightsabers. And that's boring. I'm not familiar with this term, but I like it. Yeah, so so it's the idea is it's sort of and there's a there's a Gary Sue, I think, or various other if it's a male, but the the point is that it's supposed to be a kind of author insert fantasy ideas like, hey, look, if I had to go and become a ninja, I'd be the best ninja ever. So I'm gonna write a story where someone becomes a ninja, and they're instantly the best ninja in Japan. And you're like, that's boring. That is boring. That's not how adventures ought to work. Eventually, the apotheosis, where you change or learn something new. And that then of course, that enables you to get the ultimate boon, as he calls it, which is the achievement of the quest, or the achievement of the quest you didn't know you were on. But you know, it turns out to be the true quest or whatever. And then the often neglected, but very important return, you've got to have like, as a part of the day, your mom sort of thing. Yes. And so he makes the point that actually, the return is often resisted by the hero, the hero wants to perhaps stay in the new land. But that's no fun. They has to be the return, there's got to be the return back. But of course, when you get back, you're you're changed forever. So that that's, that is your classic ingredients of an adventure. And within, I think those ingredients, you can turn a lot of things, a lot of daily activities, in some way into an adventure. But I think those it we, you know, with with those things in mind, yeah, that that's, that's sort of, you know, I think you've got your checklist there. So yeah, I think this is the preparation. Yes, but there has to be, you know, because you're being pulled, you don't perhaps get the time to manage out every risk. Because you're going to these, you're going to be tested and you'll fail. There has to be, Mikey's weeping at the side of the road moment. Yeah, that was this test, but he managed to overcome that. So I think there's also

a subjective element that comes into it where even if something goes wrong on your adventure, if you're able to turn it into a really good story, that can make a really good adventure. So that you can, there's something about, there's a subjectiveness to the events that occur on an adventure, even if everything goes terribly wrong. But you can then recount that really well, people will start thinking you had a great adventure. But the actual reality is you had a terrible time. That's really interesting. Terrible time could be a great adventure.

Yeah, it's a good point, actually, because I think a lot of the time about the concept of story, right? And it's my view, and it's not original to me, but a story always, in one sense, a story always exists, because the events such as they are, are just a collection of events. But it's the narrative that you put on those events, either in real time or afterwards, that boom, a story has happened. And so maybe that's, that said, though, you still need some stuff to happen, right? Or is there, is there an adventure in going down to the kitchen and making a cup of tea right now? Not as much as your mate saying, hey, or someone out of the blue saying, do you want to come to Israel? We'll walk there. Yeah, I don't know. Let's keep going. I'm enjoying this. Back to

Well, I've got I've got a theory about this. I mean, before you do, I mean, you're right. It's so I think, I think we probably would all agree. There's something about the human psyche that we like these, there's something about adventure that is appealing, right? Can I introduce my theory? Yeah. And before you do, I'm just imagining. Go on. Yeah, because I'm just imagining everything's going great. And it turns out and your brother's going off to Israel and Richard went as well. It turned out Richard died. That would probably be, you know, bad. Yeah, that's an unfun. That's an unfun bit of the adventure. It's not a good story. Unless he got killed by ninjas in Istanbul. And then Mikey took them out. Then that would be quite good. But anyway. Well, it's a good point. Yeah. So that brings me on to my theory. So we're in the realm of rampant speculation here, because I haven't seen this. That's where I'm most comfortable, by the way. But I think this concept of what a good adventure is can be easily explained using Shannon information entropy. I'll be more specific, right? I think that we like stories fundamentally because we find them informative and it might sound odd, but I think we have the reason that stories work is because they tap into a bit of our psyche, which makes us believe that we are experiencing them. We're capable of experiencing a story as though we were living it right now. What do we value in terms of experiences? Well, they're the ones that are informative. OK, that's the experiences we really like. We like being informed. We've evolved to want to acquire information. I'm not sure about this, but you go. OK, so. Well, let's come into Shannon entropy, whatever it was. Well, assume that fiction is interesting because it's giving you vicarious information. OK, so now what where are you getting the highest information gain? And you will get the most information gain is in the middle of an adventure, right? That is the most informative bit, because that's where there's the most uncertainty. The further away you travel from your home, the more uncertain and darker and more mysterious the region you're going. But if you're in the middle of it, you're not the furthest away from home unless you've gone wrong on your adventure. But I'm listening to the story. I'm the one listening to the story. And the bit I'm really, I don't want to hear a long drawn out thing about you going up that hill or getting out of your kitchen because I know that bit. That's boring. The bit that I'm interested in is what are the things that, you know, that are out there where in the unknown. So that that's the most interesting bit. But also you problem solving. This comes back to the tests. I'm acquiring useful information when I when I learn how you pass these tests, because I can then make sure that when I wake it up, it's just a statement of fact. This is why look that I'm learning something. As always, you're overthinking and overanalyzing. No, no, no. When you say, when you say, well, what do you I know damn well if I said to you, what's your explanation as to why we like that? You'll just go, oh, because it's a nice story. And I'm like, no, I'm trying to define what a nice story is. No, it's not by saying it is you're learning about how to behave. It's the same. The same reason why some people think we have dreams. That is a way of, you know, of giving about for arming yourself. No, it's not. But when you get to the bit within the story where the wolves attack, and it turns out you fend them off with a fiery torch. Next time when the wolves come attack, I know that I can fend them off with a fiery torch. I'm better informed. And that is why I liked that bit of the story. It looks like the wolves are going to eat you. No wonder I'm more adventurous than you. And I have better and more fun adventures, because this is your whole approach. I have another piece of data is based in something I've never even heard. I've got some more data, which is that. Have you heard of the return trip effect where the return, when you're coming back from somewhere, it feels quicker? Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've just you basically agreed with me, because the point is that. No I've not. Okay, but. No I've not. It's reflected in actually, if you look at the length of adventure stories. Yeah. The path out. Yeah. Is always much longer in the book than the path back. Yeah. Right. But that is reflecting the fact that you are, there's less information on the bit back. Because, so no wonder they don't cover as much, because there's less to inform you about on the journey back. Like Tolkien spends ages. You're normally just on an eagle. Going from one little spot. That's because he knew that even though in theory, it's just as entertaining to walk all the way back through the misty mountains and past the old forest and through Weathertop. It's not as interesting on the way back. So he misses all that now. But two things. So I'm just saying it's all information theory. You don't think it is. It's not. Yes, because your brain has evolved to do this naturally. And you don't have enough insight to realise that that's what's going on. No, I don't have the patience to try and educate you properly about this. But why do humans like adventure stories and relate that to a fundamental benefit? It's to do with emotion. It's not to do with information. It's to do with emotion. What's the evolutionary benefit of an emotion? I've explained something where there's an evolutionary benefit, which is that you're being informed and you are learning how to solve problems. You can learn from emotions, that's for sure. But maybe it's entertainment that you get from the emotions. But what is entertainment? I'm trying to explain entertainment by using evolutionary benefits. You're just repeating words. No, listen. But what is Shannon entropy? It's a measure of information gain or a measure of information. Seriously, you and me are not going to go on an adventure together. And the reason why is we'd never bloody go. Because you'd just be banging on about this stuff before we actually go or do anything. No, I'd be able to calculate which destination would give us the highest information gain. Yes, you could. You would. By finding the most surprising or the most unknown. Yeah, but you'd never leave your living room. You'd never leave your bedroom without calculating. I'm off in Siberia fighting wolves. No, you wouldn't even get to that. You'd pick a boring destination, which was predictable. No, because what you would do, I would randomise it. OK, right. But you are describing measuring Shannon entropy. You're saying you would choose one on the basis of something to do with, you know, unknowns. No, I'm not. OK. Well, yes, I am. But I don't think so. You're just basically agreeing with me. Chris, please. I've got an

important point to make here, which is that podcasts are a bit of an adventure. They certainly are. And the high point of a podcast recording is when Nick and Fraser come to blows over the definition of Shannon entropy. And the reason that's the high point of the recording is because that's when we're all learning the most. Right. Yeah. So I 100 percent agree with Nick here.

Right. You're in the blacklist as well now. So just to say it's not the highlight normally. OK, because with the exception of this case, Nick is better arguing than me and knows loads more about pretty much everything than I do, apart from adventures, obviously. And so it's always a low point for me personally, because there's always bloody wins, but he's not won this time. Jordan.

I find the information thing interesting because when I'm listening to an adventure story, I find them gripping because it's things it's like they're fantastical and they're things that sort of they spark my imagination and they're sort of like maybe things I wouldn't ordinarily do myself. Not I don't think I'm necessarily thinking, oh, that's that'll that'll come in handy for next time I'm in that situation. You might not be thinking that, but your brain is. Is that? I reckon. OK, but is it? Yeah. OK. I thought it was more of an escapist kind of. Are we just talking about information still? We are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just wanted to. Well, I just it was

good. You're obsessed with information, you lot. What else is there? That is what I don't understand this equation between all your experience in life is information. And the reason it's useful is it helps you get better outcomes. That's just so. How can you make something so fun as an adventure sound so dry and boring? I find thinking about it in terms of information. I thought this was going to be far more interesting than just randomly stringing together some names of good adventures, because now we've got a theory which helps us explain it. You want to design a good adventure, find the place which will give you the highest information. That's bollocks. Totally true. It's no, because you know, you just you just need someone to come up and say, let's go to Jerusalem. That's what you need. Where's what? I mean, I don't know. Listen, I don't want to get too cantankerous about this. I need to round us off. OK. And I've got a question, which is fairly obvious one. And it can be what's your own personal favorite adventure that you've had? Maybe that's a bit humdrum. I don't know. Nick's would be or or it could be what's your favorite adventure story, either real or otherwise. OK, that has inspired you at some point. Who wants to go first? Let's have Jordan. We'll do Jordan, then maybe Chris or me, and then

we'll round off with Nick. Something I have done that was a bit adventurey was rode a donkey from Pushka to Jazalmer in Rajasthan, which took which is about 200 miles. That's pretty cool. I feel the

gauntlet has been laid down there, guys. Well, what were the trials that you passed? Well, actually

physically riding a donkey, which I'd never done before, taming, making sure it was fed and looked after, which I didn't really quite know how to do at the time. And yeah, just generally figuring out how to ride it. How did you get on that adventure though? We bought a few donkeys at a camel fair. Okay. And decided to go somewhere with them. And what would be the adventure? Okay. And what

was the best thing that happened on that adventure? Arriving at the end of the bloody donkey. Okay.

All right. Okay. Let's go to Chris. I should have prepared better, shouldn't I? Because I ought to have had a prepared answer for this. I haven't really got one. I'm going to, I think the story, the stories I like are ones where ordinary human beings, or maybe extraordinary human beings survive something horrendous and just about get away with it. And I have to say, well, the one that comes into my head is the touching the void story with the mountaineer. So there's no mountaineering story at all. I like a mountaineering story. And this one, the guy basically dies and he sort of comes back from the dead by crawling through the crevasses for several days. And after his mates cut his rope and dropped him into a crevasse. And I like stories which make me feel that something superhuman has been achieved. And there are quite a few actually, which haven't got as much profile as that of people that there's amazing stories about people sort of rowing for days against, you know, we get being stuck in, but there are several, there are several of them, but that's quite a well known one. And I find I'm attracted by the idea of just about surviving some ludicrous thing. And the kind of human ability to hang in there against all the odds. I quite, yeah, I like those stories. I wouldn't want to do it. And I keep my, the adventures I go on, I'm normally sort of in charge of some other people for whom it's a bit more scary than it ought to be. But I have had, I mean, and the adventures, the most extreme adventures that I've had, I haven't really enjoyed that much. So I, which have been rock climbing. I fell once rock climbing and hurt my ankle quite badly and had to had to sort of prussic out of quite an unpleasant place. And it makes quite a good story, but I didn't really enjoy it. I didn't really want to do it again. So I'm not quite going back for that. I keep my rock climbing tamer now. Are you a good storyteller, do you think? Not amazing. You can be the judge of that. I wonder if it goes back to this thing, the better you are as a storyteller, the better adventures you've had, maybe, I don't know. I can tell, I would rather tell the story of the old adventures than have that one again. Yeah, because it just, yeah, I wouldn't want to do it again. It wasn't fun.

I'll try and be brief with this. But I mean, just going back to the initial question, we asked how sort of adventurous I was on a scale of one to 10, is I went to a wood near me with three, with my three kids. And when we got there, we parked just outside. I decided to park just behind this other car on the verge. And as we parked, it got a bit sort of, sort of slushy, sort of, I'm not sure if we're going to get out of this. And I realised I'd sort of got the car stuck and it was bogged down in the mud. Okay. Which point for the next 30 minutes, I had the kids pushing whilst I was trying to manoeuvre it. And the best bit was in classic comedy style, I put the accelerator on, my daughter just got covered in mud from head to foot. Okay. At which point she started freaking out. And I was saying, no, everybody, this is brilliant. Because forever, we will remember this walk. We will remember this walk as the greater event of everything went wrong. This is an adventure. To be fair, only two of my three kids were kind of convinced by that. My daughter was still really not sure about this. Still not speaking to you. Yeah. And it was hilarious. She was covered head to foot and she tried to clean it with water. It just made it worse. But anyway, Nick. Well, I've been on a few adventures. I've done quite a few long distance walks. And I like that. And as you say, there's some of the things that go wrong. You know, there's that wonderful low point, isn't there? When you realise the magnitude of what you're doing, and you've got another five days of this and it's raining and you've run out of water and all of that kind of stuff. You remember all of the bad times. And I think you're right. I wanted to bring in as my favourite adventure story of all time. I had trouble getting to Solace Salute by Dr. Seuss, which had a very profound effect on me as a kid. I read it when I was about three or four. And I've never forgotten it. Always, always loved to read it. But it's about this character who lives in the Valley of Vung. And then things start to go wrong. Like he falls over and gets attacked by a Quilligan Quail. And he's like, look, I'm going to go to this city. He discovers about this city, the city of Solace Salute, where they never have troubles, at least very few. And he decides he's going to go there. And on his adventure, everything goes wrong. He gets caught in a massive flood. He gets attacked by these perilous poosers. He gets into a tunnel which is full of birds all going the wrong way. And it's just, and then he opens the hatch eventually through this tunnel. And he's surrounded by all these beautiful flowers. And there's the city of Solace Salute. And he gets to the door. And then the doorman reveals that there's a key-slapping Slippard living in the lock. And they can no longer get in or out. And the doorman says, but don't worry, I'm off to the city of Boola Boo Ball, where they never have troubles, no troubles at all. And the main character thinks, yeah, all right, sounds great. But then he realises, no. And he returns home. And the last line is, I started back home to the Valley of Vung. I know I'll have troubles. I'll maybe get stung. I'll always have troubles. I'll maybe get bit by that green-headed quail on the place where I sit. But I bought a big bat. I'm all ready, you see. Now my troubles are going to have troubles with me. And I think that's the best message ever. That's how you change on an adventure. So when you come home, now, you know, you're ready to deal with things you couldn't deal with before. So there we are. I had trouble getting to Solaceleaf. Best adventure book ever. Beats Lord of the Rings into a cocktail. Nick, I like it. Beautifully finished off there for us. That was lovely. That was lovely. Brilliant. Well, look, on that note, we'll wrap up our

little adventure. But Chris has got something to say. Just a last word from Peter Pan, who said to die would be an awfully big adventure, which I think it takes you one step beyond what most of us would be prepared to do. It's a good attitude, isn't it? By his approach.

Yeah. No, I was talking about exactly that with my son recently. Yeah. And he talked to me about it actually. Okay. Nice. Okay. I feel like we've had a little adventure here. Thanks as always for listening to the Cognitive Engineering Podcast. I'm Fraser McGruer. We've been here with Chris Lear, Nick Hare and Jordan Fermanis of Aleph Insights. Until next time. Goodbye.