Practice acupuncture long enough and one of your patients is bound to mention some issues their pet is having. They might ask for some herbal advice, or see if you'd be up for treating their furry friend.

Perhaps you've tried your hand at treating your own critters. Found that your cat is more frisky after acupuncture or that the dog's hips aren't such a bother after a few needles.

In this episode we talk with a veterinary acupuncturist about the legal considerations,  training programs  and safety considerations for working with animals.

Listen in and explore the world of animal acupuncture.

The medicine of east Asia is based on a science that does not hold

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medicine did not grow at a Petri dish experimentation or a double blind studies.

It arose from observing nature and our part in it.

East Asian medicine evolves not from the examination of dead structures, but

rather from living systems with their complex mutually entangled interactions.

Welcome to chia logical.

I'm Michael max, the host of this podcast that goes in depth on issues.

To practitioners and students of east Asian medicine, dialogue and discussion

have always been elemental to Chinese and other east Asian medicines.

Listen into these conversations with experienced practitioners that go deep

into how this ancient medicine is alive and unfolding and hotter and clinic.

Welcome back to chia logical.

Today.

I have Neil civil with me, Neil.

We had a conversation over on everyday acupuncture show

number 31, 4 footed acupuncture.

Neal is an acupuncture.

For our four footed friends.

He's, uh, he's a veterinarian acupuncturist.

In fact, he, he uses more than just acupuncture in his veterinarian

practice, but acupuncture is a big thing that he does.

And I suspect like many acupuncturists.

We get questions about animals.

And I've got some of my own experience with treating my own cat.

When I was an acupuncture school, who was actually one of my most

amazing acupuncture teachers.

And maybe I'll tell that story a little later on, but today I've got Neil with me.

Because in my practice, I will often have people ask me if

I can treat their animals.

And on occasion I have.

And that brings up all kinds of other questions too, about legalities.

You know, if you want to treat more than just, you know, maybe your own

or your friends, animals, and just how you approach animals, if you

want to be treating them and how that might be different than, than people.

So I've got Neil here on the line today and we're going to get into.

What acupuncturists should know about treating critters.

Neil, welcome to qiological.

Hi, gets ready to be back with you.

Yeah, I've I've always enjoyed our conversation.

You know, one of the funny things is sometimes I'm just, you know, out in

public just, you know, at a party or something and people find out I'm an

acupuncturist and it's funny, they'll say, oh yeah, my dog gets acupuncture

or my horse gets acupuncture.

And yet they themselves don't get acupuncture, but they treat their

pets to it or their animals to it.

First of all, I find that to be an interesting thing.

That they will take better care in some ways of their animals.

And they take care of themselves.

That is my experience as well.

For me, that's a conversation starter in the exam room for a new client is,

you know, have you ever had it yourself?

And I mean, that is a universal truth, I think is that pet owners will sacrifice

everything for their pet, including their own wellbeing, the level of care.

That our patients get from our clients who by the time they get to us, they're

usually pretty dedicated, very dedicated.

That exact sentence is very common.

I, I give my pet things that I would never be able to give

myself for me as an acupuncturist.

I often will have patients.

And they're like, could you treat my cat or could you treat my dog?

I treated my own cat when I was in acupuncture school.

Like I mentioned, in some ways my cat was one of my teachers.

I was a little skeptical when I went to acupuncture school, I knew it

worked for me, but sometimes study in this stuff, I was like, how do

I know that any of this is real?

It's just something somebody wrote in a.

But I had this cat who was getting a little up there in age and her

hips were a little bit arthritic.

She'd have trouble on the stairs.

And one day I'm thinking to myself, you know what, I'm going to stick some

pins in the cat and see what happens.

All right.

So my cat, I'm a student, you know, I got an idea where gallbladder 30 is,

you know, I, I can see the channels on.

At least I thought I could, and I didn't think I was going to hurt her.

This was a lovely Calico cat that would sit next to you, but would rarely sit

on your lap maybe for five seconds.

So I get this cat, I get the cat in my lap.

I stick some needles in.

The cat pose, which she often does.

And she hangs on my lap for 20 minutes.

Yeah.

Right.

You take the pins out and you know, for about a month, she's good on the stairs.

Once a month, he needs a treatment.

And it really showed me that acupuncture can have an incredibly profound effect

on, you know, really any living Oregon.

You know, and I've done this for friends.

I haven't really done this for money, but I'll have a friend and I'm thinking

of a dog that was in a bad way.

Um, they were thinking of putting the dog down because it

lost the use of its hind legs.

That dog never regained complete use, but that dog was well enough.

After acupuncture to, you know, live a life as a dog, you bet.

Yeah, it was amazing.

So, well, first of all, I want to start with the legalities, right?

If, if us acupuncturist would like to expand our practice or at least be

of service to our patients, you know, to the rest of our patient's family,

so to speak, including their animals, what are some of the things that we

need to consider as an acupuncture?

Sure.

Well, let me first start with your, I mean, you should take it, I think as a

huge compliment for a patient to say, could you treat my animal or friend?

You know, how, what kind of trust is that?

And on the flip side, I get that question all the time, you

know, Hey, could you treat me?

So I take it as a huge compliment that people trust the medicine to

believe in the medicine to trust you enough or trust anyone enough

to say, I want you to do this.

But if we look at the legalities, there's two viewpoints you need to take from the

licensed acupuncturist point of view, you know, you work under a practice act

as a licensed professional, and that I'm thinking in every state would not

preclude you from working on an animal.

You know, your, your practice act probably says human.

You know, the, the terminology and there would be human.

And I bring this up because what we've seen with chiropractic practice acts,

uh, some states have changed theirs to say spine instead of human spine,

to leave it a bit open-ended so that a chiropractor who may want to work

on animals, uh, at least from their.

License your standpoint?

It would, it would open that door.

I don't know of a state for a licensed acupuncturist that would

specifically reference animals from their side, but it may be open

enough that it could include it.

That's correct.

The flip side though is from the veterinary side and that's where

it's like a licensed acupuncturist.

You know, those laws vary by every state and our veterinary practice act varies by

state, but most of them are pretty unique.

So most states use as their template for what's involved in the

practice of veterinary medicine.

They use a template that's provided by the American veterinary medical association,

which is our huge member group, you know, a hundred thousand vets in this country.

And it's our AMA you know, the ABMA and they have a model practice act.

And in that practice act, it defines acupuncture as the

practice of veterinary med.

From my side of the fence.

So to speak most often, whether with a few exceptions, it would be considered

the practice of veterinary medicine.

Now states can alter that and they have, so certain states will

allow a veterinarian to refer to another licensed professional.

If they feel that there's a need, the state of Oregon is the, is the state

that pops to mind where veterinarians can refer a patient to a licensed

acupuncturist for treatment and the bulk of the states, the majority, it would

be considered the practice of veterinary medicine and whether or not a veterinary.

I refer a case to a licensed acupuncturist.

Sometimes it's open some states, just leave it very gray and say that we

can refer to a licensed professional.

If we feel the need chiropractic is a better example where some states have

specific guidelines laid out that a veterinarian could refer to another,

you know, a licensed chiropractor.

Even some states.

I have not seen this with acupuncture in any state.

There are a few states in regard to human chiropractors, working on animals,

where they specify that the chiropractor has had needs to have had some approved

training and working with animals.

So for the most part, from my side of the fence, so to speak.

It's a veterinary only thing.

Now, Oregon being the prime example of, of a place where it's not

where a veterinarian could refer.

So that brings up the other issue, you know, do you need a referral

from a veterinarian to do this thing?

And acupuncture is still controversial.

Of course, like it isn't human medicine.

And so, you know, if you had to depend as a, as an owner on your primary

care veterinarian saying, I think I should refer you for acupuncture.

That may not happen.

You know, a lot of our, our clients find us on their own.

Well, yes.

And, and that's so often the case, you know, even with, with people on occasion,

we'll get a referral from a doctor, but most people are referring themselves.

Right.

So there are other issues that surround that as far as insurance that I have

thought about, you know, certainly my malpractice insurance covers what

I do as far as the acupuncture care.

I would, I would think that a licensed acupuncturist working on animals

could not get coverage, or it would be very expensive to work on an animal.

And then of course you have to worry about the injury before.

You know, if you were say cats, of course being a good example is that cat going

to get upset when it's being needled and either try to injure you or the owner.

And, you know, there could be some risk there for the, both

the client and the acupuncturist.

Yeah, that was one of the things that comes to mind for me.

I'm pretty good with cats.

I kind of grok cats.

I mean, somebody wanted to bring me a cat.

I'm pretty sure that I could communicate enough with that cat

to get a few needles in place dogs.

I, I don't quite get dogs the same way I get cats.

You know, one of the issues that comes up for me is what do you do about,

especially if it's a larger animal, you know, getting bitten or, you know, having

the animal get out of control in some way.

Yes.

You know, things happen.

And, you know, we're to the point in our profession where we really discourage

owners from being involved in, even holding a lot of times, even holding their

animal was being treated for any, not just acupuncture, but for any procedure,

because just anything had happened.

And if they.

Injure the client, that's a whole new set of liabilities there, like with

so many different practices there, you know, there's different laws.

You often professionals will get a little persnickety with each

other because of the scope creep.

Somebody wants to use needles and oh no, that's what acupuncturists do.

You guys can't do that.

And, you know, depending on how laws are written and such, you

know, sometimes people will use new.

And it sounds like in this case, from the veterinarian side, you know, you basically

have to be a veterinarian to do this.

That's how Mo that's how the laws are generally written from the acupuncture

side, depending on if it says human or not, there's enough grayness in there.

It might be considered within your scope of practice.

That's exactly.

And I liked that idea of scope creep.

I mean, just the idea that you know, who should do what, and then

let's, let's take that example.

You know, what if there's some sort of issue with an acupuncturist working

on a pet generally when we've seen this with a cross-professional thing,

you know, the veterinary medical board may do some sort of C-sections.

Then, you know, that has more impact on a person with a license per se, than

a licensed acupuncturist who may, you know, get in trouble with their own

board or their own, their own board may not, uh, care to participate in that.

We've seen that at various levels in veterinary medicine where outside

professionals, you know, their associations mayor or licensing boards

may or may not want to get involved.

It sounds to me like if you're going to tread into those waters, use some caution

and really no one knows how this could go.

I mean, it depends on if someone kicks up a fuss, I suspect is

often what it comes down to.

You know, usually boards don't respond to things unless there's been a.

That's right.

So, you know, is there going to be a veterinarian who's upset when they

hear about someone doing something?

Is there is a client going to be unsatisfied with treatment or, you

know, might there be some sort of freak accident where now all of a

sudden someone who is your friend is now unhappy about how things went?

You know, there's a lot of room for error in there.

The other two big issues that are always put forth from, from the veterinary

side are if a person say again, and we're talking about acupuncture today,

so is a, is a licensed acupuncturist.

Are they going to be able to recognize communicable diseases

are zoonotic diseases that could be passed from animal to person?

And, you know, is there a proper diagnosis, you know, is there, we

don't want to ever want any delay to treatment, you know, is, uh, is, uh, an

animal that's a limping arthritic, or maybe they have some sort of fracture.

And so those are the arguments put forth that, you know, when you need

to protect the pet, as well as the public, and that really speaks to the

need for if licensed acupuncturist are going to get involved with this, that

they should have some training in that.

It certainly would be helpful.

And I would think at the very least to know when you might be over your head

to be able to the various things that you just mentioned here, is that limp

from arthritis or is there a fracture to be able to make sure that you've

got a actual licensed, knowledgeable, skilled veterinarian, also looking at the

animal because there's a bunch of stuff we would otherwise miss you bad events.

So that's an ideal relationship.

You know, and, and I've got a colleague in, in Oregon, we'll

use Oregon as the example because that's where it seems to be working.

And, um, got an email from her yesterday and she has, uh, two or

three licensed acupuncturists that she works with with her patients.

And she's very satisfied with the.

Is there anything else from that legal standpoint that we would need

to know about is acupuncturist?

Well, the other thing is the idea of some, some states will require for

various things, what they, what we may call direct or indirect supervision.

And that, that really varies by state.

And it's kind of, it's, it's kind of confusing at times, for instance, in my

state, Ohio in our practice act the phrase direct supervision, which might imply.

Is that someone is standing there supervising someone else.

It actually means that the veterinarian is available by phone.

So, uh, when we talk about referring to another licensed professional, for

instance, a chiropractor, uh, which is legal in my state, the law says

18 to be under direct supervision.

And so that in my state, that means the chiropractor can be

in a separate office working on.

As long as I'm available by phone, you know, so there's ideas of would that

acupuncturist need to be working in a veterinarian's office, which I feel is

ideal, but there are also areas, you know, does there need to be a written referral?

Does there need to be supervision either onsite or offsite and that sort of thing.

Let's just say.

We've decided to take this on, right?

Someone's got a dog, someone's got a cat.

We feel comfortable with the relationship.

How do we transfer our skills from being a human acupuncturist, to

being an animal acupuncturist?

Are there some books?

Are there some resources?

If we wanted to dip our toe in that stream, so to speak, how

would we get started first off?

I'd say for acupuncturists out there.

No matter your philosophy of practice.

There's a veterinarian out there doing it, you know, that's thought about doing it.

So if you're, you know, classical Chinese medicine, if you're TCM, if you're five

element, you know, there are resources.

Uh, regarding the use of those philosophies and animals, for sure.

Definitely.

There are three training programs in this country for veterinarians

to train them how to do acupuncture.

And those groups generally have bookstores and there are excellent texts written.

So an acupuncturist could familiarize themselves with, uh,

point locations, that sort of thing.

You know, we can put those in the show notes for sure.

You know, so there, there are resources for sure.

What are some other cautions and concerns that an acupuncturist

would have in treating animals?

Well, I would think we're getting just up to speed on point locations,

you know, something as simple as.

If, if that practitioner does pulse and tongue diagnosis in their human

patients, that, you know, that's a, that's a different ball game with,

with our animals, you know, in small, we're talking about dogs and cats,

we certainly do tongue diagnosis.

And, uh, most of us do pulse diagnosis with the femoral pulses rather

than trying to do a radial pulse, like, like you would in people.

So there are some, some differences for sure.

So point locations, some of your regular diagnostic procedures.

And then of course we're depending because we're having to work through

the caretaker of that pet, you know, the history questions that you would ask,

we need to suss that out with maybe one or a couple of members of the family.

So where you, whereas you might get some pretty straight answers from a

patient sitting in your exam room, you know, we've got the nuance of

having to deal with someone who's speaking for that, for that patient.

As well, as, you know, we're, we're relying pretty heavily on

our, on our examination as well.

And then of course, the other things that we talked about already, you know, the

potential for the animal handling part of it, the potential for injury and,

and even just as something as simple as providing a low stress environment

to work, you know, so that the patient actually is comfortable being treated.

You always human acupuncturist.

I think that's one of the things that we really look to try to

provide for our patients is, uh, an environment they can come into.

That's not this fluorescent cold table.

Like you usually get at the regular doctor's office.

Absolutely.

And a lot of us that do acupuncture, uh, as part of our veterinary practices.

I'm, I'm fortunate that that's all I do.

I don't do any traditional practice and there, of course I'm not alone.

There are hundreds at least of, of other veterinarians that do that.

Um, those.

Maybe do acupuncture as part of what they offer in a traditional practice may have a

certain room that they do the acupuncture in, uh, that has some altered lighting

or some more, more comfortable, you know, maybe doesn't have that cold exam table.

Yeah.

So we're trying to optimize the experience for sure.

Yeah.

You know, I, I suspect it's probably more comfortable for the pet owner as well.

To come into that environment to be in that environment.

I suspect they settle and, uh, and, and have more comfort as well.

Yeah, we're fortunate, you know, and again, in our

office that that's all we do.

So we don't have to worry about those stainless steel tables.

We, we use aroma therapy and essential oils and calming music.

And, you know, we, we try to make it optimum from, for both parties and.

We get good feedback on that.

So, you know, and that's, that's just better for a whole experience all around

for both the patient and the owner.

You know, there's this thing that we hear a lot about with acupuncture that

it's primarily placebo, at least from the conventional medicine point of view.

Cause they're, they're just not sure how to make sense of it.

And you know, in a lot of people, especially if they have not.

Acupuncture or they don't have a background in it.

Uh, they wonder if it's, if it's all in their head, if it's all just placebo, when

they get better, I get this all the time.

People get off the table and go and they feel so tremendously different.

They go, is this just in my head?

All right.

We get that all the time.

One of the things about animals, at least from, from my perspective is

we might not have the same placebo effect that we do with humans.

But then again, Yeah.

There's many ways that we communicate with our furry friends beyond words

that deeply touches both of us.

Could you speak a bit to placebo in veterinarian acupuncture?

So there's not a good research in animals on placebo.

We think that they don't.

Uh, respond to a placebo effect.

I have to think in my office, that's what we experienced.

You know, the course, the other thing that we have to deal

with is the owner's expectation and, uh, whether or not they're

responding to some sort of placebo.

We may have a single owner that brings the pet in for treatment.

And so we're relying on their opinion about how things are going.

We may have, for instance, we may have a couple, uh, who may

or may not agree on how well the treatments are helping the pet.

Uh, unfortunately for things, you know, in our offices, we

don't have some sort of measure.

Capabilities for instance, for an animal who may have some sort of

lameness or be sore, you know, we don't have forced place that we can measure

and demonstrate that yes they are.

Putting more weight on that injured leg than they, than

they weren't before treatment.

So we have to rely on our examination and our impression of the patient

as well as the owners, um, feedback.

And so that's where we might get a placebo is they may so desperately

want their pet to feel better that they, they may overstate or under.

Sometimes the pants condition.

That's interesting.

I, I hadn't thought about that until we're having this conversation that

because you have the intermediary of a human being, there's all of that

to take into consideration as well.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

Just so you've got like, again, you know, we may have, for whatever reason there,

uh, you know, the emotional attachment to the pet, you know, that may cause an

owner to think that the pet is better when they're not, they may want to continue

treatment longer than, than we feel that.

Should be attempted because of that attachment.

We may have couples that disagree, you know, and we treat a lot of

geriatric pets in our office.

And so, you know, a pet that may be fecal or urinary and continent maybe

causing having accidents in the house.

And that may be totally unacceptable to one member of the household and

another, that may be no big deal.

So we've got all those, all those ancillary issues to contend with as well.

That's just, it was a whole different dimension into veterinarian work that

we wouldn't have with human work.

Isn't it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Have there been studies done in the veterinarian world, looking at placebo?

Is this anything that, from your side of it, from the veterinarian side,

conventionally or acupuncture wise, how's placebo looked at or dealt with,

or even is it even thought about.

You just thought about, it's just hard.

It's hard to reproduce, you know, so there are studies involving placebo.

There's certainly when they're looking at the effectiveness of new treatments

and generally that's not acupuncture, that's a drug or some sort of procedure.

Uh, we may get, uh, some placebo involved in those trials, but nothing

of any importance has come out.

Or showing that placebo is a real, a real effect for these guys.

Yeah.

Be safe to say that placebo something, we can pretty much

roll out when it comes to animals.

I think so, especially cats.

Right?

Cause they're, they're not gonna put up with any bull whatsoever.

It's true.

It's one of the things I like about.

Yeah, they're going to let you know exactly how they feel.

Yeah.

In your experience, what are some of the conditions that

tend to respond well to occupy?

You know, we, our foot in the doors, just like, I'm sure on the human

side, our conditions of discomfort, you know, arthritis, neurologic

problems, uh, that sort of thing.

At least I have benefited from those patients.

Those clients that I do get, that have had acupuncture, you know, maybe it's

been for some sort of injury or, uh, you know, I'm not involved in reproduction

at all with animals, but you know how powerful acupuncture is for reproduction.

So I would guess that, um, a fair number of my clients.

I have had acupuncture for, for fertility and know that it works.

So certainly any internal medical condition with allergies, of course

seizures, uh, cancer are, uh, unfortunately our practices, a fair

number of patients with cancer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, you know, you mentioned seizures and this is maybe just slightly off

topic, but I want to go there anyway.

We've been hearing a lot about CBD or.

For humans with seizures.

I'm wondering if you're using this with animals.

We are, there's some issues, you know, with illegality of that, if you look

at the DEA, uh, still considers CBD or hemp oil to be marijuana, which,

which is classified schedule one, which would mean no proven medical use.

So it's a bit difficult, but you know, these things can be purchased by.

Owners or patients themselves.

Uh, but we have found in our office that CBD has been very useful for

not only seizures, but a number of other conditions as well.

I think we're just scratching the surface.

That's my suspicion too.

What are some of the other conditions that you see being

helpful for besides the neurologic.

Sure.

We certainly use it as part of a pain control plan.

For a lot of our patients, we use it for the immune, the immune modulation that

it can provide for our cancer patients and of course, appetite stimulation

for those patients when they need it.

You know, I'm almost hard pressed to, to at least with our patient load.

It's hard to come up with a patient who couldn't benefit from it.

One of the things that concerns me a little bit about it, it seems like such

a panacea in some ways it seems to be helpful for so many different things.

That's true.

That's true.

I guess, I guess it would fall on that sort of adaptogenic category.

I would agree.

Yeah.

Do you find any Chinese herbs in particular seem to help CBD work better?

Or if the CBD, um, boosts up some, some of your Chinese formulations,

you know, I haven't, I haven't really paid attention to.

I couldn't name a formula that I thought a formula to that I thought

worked better with the CBD, but, but I would suspect that that's the case.

Yeah.

It's one of the things that I've been thinking about since, well, you know,

it's just in the past couple of years, that's come on my radar as well.

And I've got many more questions about it than I do answers.

So I'm just going to have to find a CBD expert to get on the show here.

Well, I can help you with that.

I've actually got someone lined up who I'll be talking

to, uh, in the near future.

So keep listening here to qiological cause we're gonna, we're going to

be discussing that from, uh, from a very deep Chinese medicine point

of view here in the near future.

If we decide that we don't want to take a stab, so to speak at

treating animals, but we do want to help our patients find someone.

Who's qualified to take care of their animals with acupuncture or

Chinese medicine, but how do you find a good veterinarian acupuncturist?

And what are you looking for in terms of credentials or training?

Sure that that's, that's great.

I think at least in our office, that mutual relationship is with

the other professionals is really great for, for practice building.

Um, I've got a relationship, you know, See how well it works for

their pet and they want to try it.

So I've got a handful of, of trusted acupuncturist that I can

refer them to and vice versa.

So it's a, it's an excellent way to just refer people back and forth.

So there are, there are a number of training programs for veterinarians,

uh, to train them in acupuncture.

And I can provide those to you for the show notes.

Um, the problem is.

That there's no one good clearinghouse like, like licensed acupuncturist.

There's no good way to find a central referral location.

So I can provide you with some resources.

The schools themselves maintain a database of practitioners.

We have some national associations that, uh, you know, a veterinarian

may or may not choose to be a member of, uh, they may be a member of the.

The alumni association of their training program, which is one

resource I can provide for you.

They may choose to be a member of a national organization, and which really

helps because all of those groups will use, have a geographic locator.

Then the other question is.

Does the veterinarian, is that a mainstay of their practice?

You know, they've gone through the basic training, uh, for us that involves

at least a couple hundred hours.

It involves an examination at the end and involves, uh, doing

some case reports for approval.

And it involves all the programs require, um, between 20 and 40 hours of

an internship with a, with a credential doctor, which I think is, is great.

To get a new practitioner out with a more experienced one to

spend some time and to have case discussions and that sort of thing.

So, you know, certainly making sure that the doctor has finished a

program has don't gone through the certification process and is maintaining

a current certification as the first.

For me, the second step is, you know, how much are they using it in their practice?

Unfortunately, we see an acupuncture and veterinary acupuncture, a lot of

veterinarians who may start the course, maybe not finished, maybe not finish

the whole credentialing process or certification process or may get that far.

And then just not, you know, they may be in a busy general practice, primary

care practice, and they just may not use it that much and more and more.

I mean, there are literally thousands of veterinarians out there that, that

spend their days doing acupuncture.

And so those are the people to try to find, yeah, you want the

person who's completed the training and has some experience and

ideally daily, weekly experience.

Exactly.

And it's a big sense of their practice and we're out there.

It's just, it's just being, having the resources to find that person.

Yeah.

Well, and so often I think it's the case with any kind of

healthcare practitioner on occasion.

You'll find someone on the internet.

But usually you're looking through your social network.

Do you know someone, has someone else had a good experience with someone?

Have they been helped that that word of mouth thing is so important, but yeah,

especially in this case, I'm looking forward to having these resources

to put it on the show notes because it's, it's a good place to start.

You bet.

It's absolutely a great place to start.

Yeah.

Yep.

Great.

Yeah.

Neil, is there anything else that we should know as acupuncturists

about working with critters?

You know, for a licensed acupuncturist, that's interested.

We talked about the, uh, the written resources, you know, textbooks,

charts, that sort of thing.

They appear to be inactive right now, but there are two training programs

for licensed acupuncturist to get them up to speed on working with animals.

And, and one is out in Oregon and the other's in Maryland and we can put those.

I can provide those resources, uh, for you as well.

So.

That you can have them for the show notes.

Great.

That sounds wonderful.

Okay.

As ever.

It's great to talk with you and thank you for taking the time to speak with

us about this aspect of acupuncture that you know, it kind of lingers

in the corners of our clinic and conversations from time to time.

I, I, uh, this is certainly helpful for me and I hadn't thought about building.

Relationships kind of an Alliance with, with veterinarians so that I

would have someone that I could refer to and it didn't even occur to me that

that referral could be coming back the other way that they're getting

questions about, Hey, where can I as a human being go to get acupuncture.

That's a, that's kind of a little practice building tip that I don't

think I've ever heard before.

It's a great idea.

Good.

Besides, of course my, our work toward helping pets feel better.

It brings me great joy to be able to show a client the benefits of

acupuncture and get them interested and get them the help that they need.

It's extremely rewarding to, to be able to refer that, that client to an

acupuncturist and have them get help.

And just for the work and on the other end, I would think

every acupuncturist that's done a great job with their patients.

And, you know, we get those clients in that have had acupuncture and

experience the benefits and then they know what it can do for their paths.

And that's a phenomenal thing.

Yes, it is great, Neil.

Thanks again.

Oh, you're very welcome and great to talk to you again.