The episode serves as a critical examination of the upcoming triathlon events, specifically addressing the complexities and challenges presented by the hilly terrains of the World Championship courses. The hosts articulate a blend of excitement and apprehension as they discuss the implications of the course design on both professional and amateur athletes. They delve into the intricacies of training for such demanding conditions, highlighting the necessity for tailored strategies that accommodate the unique challenges posed by elevation changes. Furthermore, they engage in a thoughtful discourse on the significance of mental preparation, fueling strategies, and the choice between road and time trial bikes. By weaving personal anecdotes with expert insights, the hosts provide a rich narrative that not only informs but also inspires listeners to confront the rigors of triathlon racing with confidence and determination.

Links to topics discussed:

The TriDoc Podcast

Matt's Instagram

Jeff's Instagram

LifeSport Coaching

Email Jeff: tri_doc@icloud.com

Email Matt: Matt@thetemponews.com

Signup for the Tempo News

Signup for The TriDoc Podcast Supplement form

What would happen if you brought together a professional triathlete and producer of one of the most widely read triathlon newsletters.

Together with the tridoc medical contributor for Triathlete magazine, age group winner and coach at LifeSport coaching.

Let's say you had the makings of a pretty good podcast.

Welcome to Tempo Talks.

Two perspectives, one sport.

All things triathlon.

Hello again everybody and welcome back to another episode of Tempo Talks.

I'm Your co host, Dr. Jeff Sankoff, host of the Tridock podcast podcast and co host here, Tempo Talks, along with my friend Matt, Matt Sharp, professional triathlete.

We haven't received our million dollar checks yet.

What checks are you talking about?

Well, you know, last week on this very episode here, we were recording and I opined at my sadness about the fact that we still did not know the 70.3 world championship courses and within, what, 24 hours the course was known.

And so I thought I would venture forth with another wish of mine, that maybe we could each somehow get our million dollar checks.

I don't know where they would come from.

T100 perhaps, who knows?

So that's my on my wish list this week.

So there you go.

Definitely.

You put the pressure on them and they responded accordingly.

They heard it loud and clear and they scrambled.

I'm sure to figure these maps out.

It is insane really, that they hadn't.

Released it until, especially when they came out and gave as many people as they did seizures and heart attacks.

And I know of at least one athlete, a friend of mine is a coach in Australia and she said one of her athletes saw the map and immediately canceled all her plans.

She is not.

Yeah, it was.

I don't know if they even let on previously that it was going to be quite so hilly, like the bomb.

They dropped the bomb.

Hilly, hilly.

I, I looked at that and I thought to myself, mountainous.

Yeah.

It looks like a profile from the hilliest days of the Tour de France.

There's beyond category.

When I showed that to my son Adam, who he and I are watching the Vuelta Espana.

He's oh, it's a Vuelta stage.

And I said, no, it's just a course for my triathlon.

I'm gonna have to run after that.

Yeah, no, they really, they're really challenging people.

It's a unique course.

Now that I've seen it, we're gonna watch it.

I'm excited to watch it on TV because it's gonna be good action.

We're gonna get to.

We're gonna get to.

We're gonna get to.

Your probable lack of participation in just a bit.

What else are we talking about today, Matt?

We've got a couple.

Yeah, good lineup.

We've got obviously the Marbella course.

We have a big weekend, massive weekend World Triathlon T100 combined race.

Been waiting for this for a long time and now it's happening and then I think we're going to get into some hill training content at the end.

Yeah, we're going to talk about.

Cause that's been obviously and we actually have received some questions from listeners about how to prepare for this if you don't aren't fortunate enough to live where we do with access to as many hills and long climbs.

So we're going to touch on that to finish up the show.

But why don't we begin first with this coming weekend's excitement and fireworks in the French Riviera?

Yes.

So it's interesting.

This is the very first combined T100 world triathlon race weekend and when they signed this like 12 year agreement was that last year?

This time last year I think this is what they had in mind was to eventually get these events together on the same weekend.

Having all the attention on just both entities at once instead of both of them competing for the triathlon Mind share on a given weekend.

Now they're together.

Everybody's talking about this happening this weekend and there's a few interesting story lines.

I think for me the most interesting thing this weekend is the folks who are attempting the double.

The double being this weekend followed by the Ironman World in Nice.

No intra.

Is it intra or inter weekend double.

Oh, the double of both these races, the world Triathlon race and the T1 first.

Let me back it up because I had asked you just before we started recording.

I was a little bit surprised looking at the start list at how few men were going to do both the T100 and nice because they're in the same kind of vicinity and it gives.

It's.

It seems like the spacing is really well suited for this to be a tune up for anybody who wanted to finish up their last sort of training block heading into the worlds.

And you mentioned Sam Long.

He's one of the few.

I don't think there's any other names that I picked off the Nice starting list.

Yeah, it's hard because a T100 as your tune up race, I feel like going into a world champs you want to have a little confidence.

You want to maybe flex a little bit on your competition.

Going to a T100 race, it's like going to battle with the best in the world.

So I'm not surprised in that sense.

You don't see too many folks.

You do see Sam Long.

Yes.

He is I think training through his second race, T100 race after London.

He trained through that one and he's.

He came one.

But is there no value?

I know I tell my athletes that I coach that there's great value to using a race as a training activity because you get to train your transitions, you get to train your nutrition.

Obviously these are pros, they know what they're doing.

They're not really going to benefit in that way.

But is there no value to even a pro using a race as a TRA going out there?

Not necessarily to win.

They're in the area anyways.

Is there no value for you to make use of it as a training activity as well?

I do think yes, there's definitely value in having these kind of training races because they all, in a way sometimes I think they help athletes come to their a race or whatever in actually a better place.

Instead of just training full gas up until that a race weekend, they deload going into this prep race, which may be three weeks before, two weeks before and then you can't really go back fully on the gas after that.

So you're like sharpening even more just because of the level of competition and maybe three weeks out, it doesn't make as much sense, I don't know.

But to me, like if I was trying to do nice because it's such a crazy race too in itself with the hills and whatnot, I would want mentally to be in as good of a place as I could.

And if I go to a T100, you always start, want to start a race like feeling like you're going to be competitive.

And if you don't feel like you've been training for this demands of competition, I don't think it's worth your time just more mentally really, if you get shellacked on race day and then you've got your biggest race of the year, not too much longer after that.

I think momentum is important.

I think that's really interesting.

It's a very interesting point.

I think that we always talk as coaches of age groupers about how important the mental attitude is heading into a race.

And I don't want to discount it at all what you're saying.

I think it's really important.

But at the same time I could see the mental benefits of going into a race like that.

And even if you're not there to win it but if you're there to test yourself and you come out and go, hey, you know what, those climbs went really well.

That could be a mental positive.

But I see your point that look, if you get absolutely shellacked, that can knock your confidence down.

So I totally see where you're coming from on that.

So that's interesting.

All right, tell us about this double.

This, the intra weekend double.

Who is going for that?

Originally, I think there was three athletes who were slated to do the T100 and World Triathlon series championship series race, which is a sprint distance, which makes it a lot more feasible.

So it's not Olympic half the distance.

Still, but even a higher level of output, though for a short time.

It's a high level.

Absolutely.

So originally I think three athletes.

Now there's only two.

I think Taylor Spivey, who was the only female who was going to do the double, is now only doing the world championship series race.

So now you have Morgan Pearson from the US doing the double and then also Mr. Hayden Wilde, the London champion, the comeback kid, whatever you want to call him after his crazy accident and surgeries and whatnot.

And he's funny because I think originally this was his plan all along, was to try and win the world triathlon series plus win the T100 series.

So obviously got kicked down a little bit with his accident, but clearly still in pretty incredible form.

I, I think if someone can pull it off a successful double and maybe your definition of success maybe looks different, but he could pull it off for sure.

I want to be sure that we are pay attention to words and we remember that Hayden was hit by a motor vehicle.

And so I don't want to call that an accident.

I want make sure we call that a collision.

Is that what it is?

Yeah, yeah.

Because accidents are, it insinuates randomness and something that couldn't have been prevented.

And in the injury prevention world of emergency medicine, we don't like that word.

So we call them collisions.

So no, it's important.

Yeah.

Collision.

When he was collided into by a truck, that's what happened.

Exactly.

I think Hayden Wilde's amazing.

And which one is first?

Is the longer one first or the.

Originally I thought it was the sprint distance race on the Saturday and then the T100 on Sunday.

And I was almost like, oh, like that kind of checks out.

Like you can.

These athletes are so fit, like the amount they train doing a sprint distance race and quite hard.

Yes.

Obviously the next day you're going to be sore, but you can still have a High capacity compete the next day.

And to me it just seems like a better, like a great order to do that because you get a hit out almost you, I don't know, fire up the pipes or whatever and then you can hit the longer race the next day.

But I just looked at the schedule and that is not the case.

The Saturday is the T100 race.

So you're doing the big long 800 kilometer race.

I think a lot of muscle damage coming off that.

And then 24 hours later, essentially you gotta rev up for the sprint distance.

What do you think about that?

Yeah, the sprint distance will take the pros less than an hour.

And so there is that.

I do think that.

It seems to me that it would have been a lot easier to do the sprint distance first.

But because it's such a short race, I can also imagine that a lot of these, like you said, these pros are so fit.

How do you feel after a 70.3?

Are you.

Do you feel like you can come back the next day and do a sprint?

No, I don't.

That's honest.

Like I'm thinking about Boise and the next day.

Like I could go for a jog, sure, like an easy jog.

But like the thought of trying to rip whatever sub 5 minute mile quicker than that pace for 5k, that's not gonna happen.

It's not gonna happen.

So that makes it a little tougher I think for the two boys who are trying to attempt this double because.

And then it's interesting too because then you know, they're out there.

Maybe if you're not having such a good day, both of them will probably have good days.

But it's almost.

Oh like maybe I shut her down a little bit or maybe don't run to my full potential to maybe try and save some energy or save some fibers for the next day.

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out as well.

Yeah, I don't really.

If they wanted these guys, the World triathlon series and T100 to collaborate, then it seems to me they should have made the sprint first because I probably would have engendered more cross pollination of athletes across the two, but I don't know what was involved in that decision.

Yeah, these guys are still doing it.

So at the end of the day there's still talk about it, there's still hype in the media.

And this is what they want, right?

They want to have these kind of interesting storylines going into these races and have something for people to talk about other than just a Standard race.

It's.

Oh, you got these guys doing the double.

What's gonna happen?

How's that gonna look the next day?

Are they gonna be able to back it up?

Like, it's super compelling and we're gonna see, like, hopefully this event is executed well.

Because if it is, then this is the model that they want to have for the next, like, for the future.

This is it.

Because they need this.

They need this.

Yeah.

And where is it taking place?

I know it's French Riviera, but I'm not sure of where.

It's like St. Raphael.

I don't know how to say that.

How do you say that?

I. Yeah, I don't.

I'd have the French Riviera.

Yeah.

That's a beautiful.

That's a beautiful location.

It's iconic.

Yeah.

I don't know if it's Saint Tropez, if anywhere like that.

I don't know if that's around there, but that sounds legit.

Is it?

Okay.

Yeah.

So when you have you looked at the course, I imagine it's the T100 course has got to be hilly.

Yes, hilly.

And it's very interesting.

It is a single loop course, so, yeah, it goes up into the hills.

Like it is a.

A course I could get behind.

Exactly.

Unfortunately for the age groupers who thought they were doing this one loop iconic course, they got the rug pulled out from beneath them.

And I think it's like a six loop bike course or something.

I had a template subscriber reach out a while back saying, yeah, this is garbage.

And also, I think they screwed up as well.

I think the age groupers race while the T100 is going off.

I don't know how this is going to work, but the logistics of that aren't super great.

So a bit of a fumble there, I'd say.

So a big iconic event, a big showcase, and yet still.

Still missteps.

Yeah.

All right.

Got the makings of a great weekend.

Yeah.

Let's focus on the important stuff and really the stuff that our listeners want to hear about.

And that is who should we be watching for?

Because who's going to be there?

Because we know that a lot of the men that we would normally think of are not going to be there because they're saving themselves for nice.

So who is going to be there and who should be watching?

And then on the women's side, I believe there are some of the Kona performers that will be on the start line.

It's an interesting.

Like the two races, I'd say My take of the two races, the World Triathlon Championship Series race is more compelling just based on the depth.

Like all the heavy hitters are there basically.

So for the women's race you have Olympic champion Cassandra Garan, you have Lisa Turch who won Abu Dhabi World Series, Jen Lahare who won Yokohama World Series, you have Leonie Perio from France who won Hamburg.

So you got four different winners.

And you also have a Beth Potter as well coming back.

Like she's been on the podium this year a bunch of times.

So there's just like a, it feels like a really compelling race with all the heavy hitters in the women's race and then the men's race you have this kind of three way showdown between.

There's other athletes too, but the big headliners would be Matt Hauser, who's currently leading the World Series.

He's got a couple wins under his belt in Hamburg and Yokohama, so he's the big series leader.

But then now you have the return of Alex Yi, who obviously went and did his side quest doing the marathon.

So obviously a great athlete.

And if you get him on the start line, there's a good chance he's going to win.

But his form is also a little bit untested.

I guess he won the Super League race.

We'll see on in this kind of field how things look longer swim.

Who knows, maybe the marathon training slowed him down a little bit.

But also you have Hayden Wilde attempting the double.

So these three guys, these are I would say the headliners and they're all gonna see how things shake out with them because we still have quite a few races left for the World Championship as well in that one.

And he says he's trying to win.

That's a draft legal race.

This is draft legal.

Yeah.

So it's gonna be, it's gonna be interesting.

I always find it funny that they do sprints with pros because yeah, it seems like it's like over so quick.

Their 5k times are like so ridiculous.

And that's, I don't mind the hour long race.

I just think you can make an hour long race with whatever, 60, 50 guys more compelling by changing up the distances that they do.

So if you had a longer swim within an hour race, it could be more compelling in terms of like more separation on the bike.

You could have more breakaway groups, you'd have more things, I guess, uncertain going on to the run.

Whereas a lot of these sprint races, it's decided who's going to be first or second once they Even start the run based on the cast of characters who were there.

Yeah.

So yeah, that's my style.

Yeah, no, I got it.

Yeah.

All right.

Yeah.

T100.

Yeah.

It's crazy because after the incredible three way battle in London with Lucy Charles Barclay, Kate Wolf, Taylor Knibb plus Julie Darin in fourth, none of those athletes are on the start line.

Julia, I heard how to crash.

Oh yes, that's right.

That's why she's not racing.

Hey.

Yeah.

I hope it sounds like it wasn't bad enough to cause her any long term stuff but she pulled out of this race because of that crash which kind of made me concerned that she might have some long term effects.

But I guess we're far enough away from October that she should be okay.

Yeah, timing wise you could be worse for sure.

But yeah, so you lose her on the start line and that means that you're going to have a new winner.

Another new winner for the T100 which is a great, it's a great opportunity for an athlete to take a bit of control in the series.

Like an Ashley Gentle going to be there.

She's finally got her chance.

I hate, oh my gosh, poor Ashley.

For her to win because the four other ones aren't there would be as.

An on the start line.

This is how I defined my career.

I just got on the start line and then some people didn't.

And so that's how you can beat some people is they don't show up.

That's what I tell my athletes all the time.

You don't control who shows up, you just execute your race and then the final result is the final result.

Yeah.

I would say for this race, the athletes who maybe most likely win podium ashy Gentle.

Obviously you have Paula Finley who's actually been there for almost two weeks or maybe like a week and a half.

Like reconning the course, getting to know all the twists and turns with her cycling coach or who is her coach effectively.

Haven't heard her name in a while.

Paula Finley.

Yeah, she hasn't really.

Yeah, no, the last race she did but I haven't had a name in a while.

Yeah, no, this is so for her I think this is a really good opportunity for her.

It seems like a very cyclist friendly course because you can't see.

You're not going to be able to see people like out at out and back or anything because of the one loop.

Jessica Learmouth who's been in the front pack of all these T100 races.

Georgia Taylor Brown as well who had a tough go in London, but she's a talent.

So she could be on the podium.

Yeah, definitely on the men's side.

Men's side, yeah.

Hayden Wilde, if this is London, he won, came back after the collision, came back after the big collision and won.

And he's such a good cyclist as well, so it's hard to see him losing.

But a guy like Rico Bogan, if he can get out of sight, out of mind on the bike, maybe he can hold off Hayden.

If just mentally, if he can't see where he is.

And you also have yellow Geen as well.

I'd say those three are the headliners.

Leo Bridgere, who usually for me is a podium contender.

He has had some injuries so I don't think he's ready to quite take the win.

Maybe podium, but home soil.

Yes, there is that factor as well.

For sure, for sure.

Otherwise Sam Long, he's there, he's not.

He's going to do 180k ride the day before or something.

So don't expect him to fight for the podium.

All right, before we move to our next topic, I want to be sure to address the fact that we were handed a blue card.

We should have had a penalty tent before.

I want to thank Shelly Parsons for reaching out to us and letting us know that we were remiss in not discussing the Ironman in our home country, the capital of our home country.

It was the debut too, the debut.

Of the Ironman in Ottawa, Canada.

She was quite right in letting us know that we neglected to give some coverage to that.

Neither one of us were really well connected to that race and so we.

And there was no pro field and so we just made a conscious, maybe not conscious, unconscious decision when we were thinking about topics to cover and unfortunately that one got left on the cutting room floor and I, I regret the decision.

So we apologize.

Shelley.

It happens.

It happens.

Do you have any taking aways or lessons?

Have you heard much about the race?

Everything I've heard has been really positive.

Everybod commented that the race was put on very well, that it was very beautiful, that it was really great event.

It was fast because of course.

Are you familiar with Ottawa at all?

Kind of.

I've raced there once or twice.

Yeah.

Colonel by drive, which is.

Which was a big chunk of the bike ride is super flat.

It runs along the Rideau Canal and that made for a very fast bike course run was flat and fast as well, but just super nice to be running through the capital and was very well received by the People of Ottawa who are used to having their streets closed and disrupted for government kind of affairs.

And so I.

My sense from speaking to people who live there and people who were visiting was that the people of the capital region were quite accommodating and quite happy to have the race.

So we'll see how that goes.

A good energy for sure.

Although unfortunate.

They couldn't dip up into the.

The national park up there with a Gatineau Park.

Right?

Yeah.

That is iconic and that is not too far.

But it does require obviously a much bigger footprint.

It's easier to keep it within the confines of the city.

So we'll see.

That event is slated to come back next year and we will be sure to give it more coverage next year.

All right, maybe Shelley as a as like a producer, maybe Shelly can be like a part time producer.

Send us topics.

That's right.

That's right.

I love it.

All right, we're going to move on to the discussion of the 70.3 World Championships in Marbella, specifically relating to the course maps that came out.

The swim and the run, fairly pedestrian affairs.

The swim is the flattest part of the day, even with the waves that you are sure to encounter in the ocean.

I did find it interesting that there are as many turns on the swim as there are, but I for one like a course like that.

Although the turns are very congested and generally cause a lot of trouble and angst.

But it is nice because it breaks the swim up and makes it.

The longest leg, I think is 500 meters.

And so it's just really nice that every time you look up, you can see a red buoy.

Not too many mentally.

Mentally, you're in it.

Yeah, mentally it just makes the swim a lot easier, I find, personally.

So in that respect it's nice.

But yeah, all those turns are definitely going to make for contact.

We'll see how that goes.

But once you're off the swim, you're in it.

It is a bike course, not for the faint of heart.

This course will have almost 5,800ft of climbing and that is compressed into the first 46 miles of the course.

The last 10 miles of the course are a descent back to town.

I cannot comment on the technical aspects of that descent just yet.

I am hopeful that it won't be Completely crazy.

We're going to talk about the aspects of training for a day like this, but I want to spend a little bit of time just talking about how this is likely to impact the professionals, how it's likely to impact us as age groupers, and then spend a little time on gear selection because that has obviously become a focus of discussion.

So what Matt, you mentioned, you alluded to it just once you saw the map.

That was the end of your travel plans.

That was the dagger.

That was it really.

It's just the thing is I've been competing for many years.

I think I've been pro elite, whatever for 15 plus years.

And I can't say I've ever had a good race, a good result when the elevation goes up on a course.

And that was, I was reminding of, reminded of that, sorry, in St. George's year when I got absolutely shellacked or just smashed on those hills.

Like my physiology, I'd say, is just not designed to go up hills as well as just being on the flat.

So when I saw there was, yeah, what is it, almost 2,000 meters of climbing, I was like, nah, this is not, is not going to be my wheelhouse.

But now, as someone who will be firmly on the sideline, I will say the pro races will definitely be quite engaging with these climbs and this elevation profile.

When a pro who is a strong cyclist looks at that, I imagine they have to be salivating.

But at the same time they've got to be thinking to themselves, I have to be able to run after that.

That's, listen, I'm a strong cyclist and I looked at that and I thought that's a great ride.

But I don't know how excited I am to run.

I have to just that.

So.

So what's the professional sort of approach to something like that?

What's interesting, as you talked about, there is like a nice kind of longer stretch at the end of the bike where you're not going to be pushing the pace.

You're already as a pro, already in the last 10 miles of the bike.

That's usually the slowest or the least on, I guess, part of the race.

So in that sense nothing really changes.

But it's just that opening kind of climb.

Looking at the profile, there's like a.

Obviously it kicks up for quite a while, flattens out for a little bit.

I'd say flat in like air quotes because there's still little like hills or whatever and then kicks up again.

So if I was training for this course, like, I would need to Be just so ready for whatever it is, like 10 miles or so, the first climb.

Yeah, Give or take.

Yeah.

Like you just gotta be ready because the race will almost.

Because it's a 70.32.

Like the race will almost be dictated by that first massive climb.

Because really once you get settled into groups and stuff and you can't really see people, it doesn't look like it's a very.

Yeah.

Friendly course to see people that much.

Then there is an out and back there.

It is an out and back course.

Right.

And there is a long out and back section towards the end.

But you're right.

Other than that it's going to be hard.

Yeah.

So if you can.

If I was a pro who was ready to go, like I would just want to be as prepared as I could be for that first climb.

Cuz things are really going to shake out and then maybe after halfway through the bike where you are is where you're going to be.

You're not going to take any more risks like effort wise to try and bridge the gap because really like you talk about, you still got to run off and for the athletes who can go to that place, go to that well, but then still hold on for the ride and come off the bike in a decent position like they're going to have a great day.

But if you kind of lose it a bit in the beginning and try and catch up, it's it.

You're not going to have a good time on that run.

Durability is going to be crucial for this bike course.

So who do you think is likely to benefit from this?

And the first, the names that come to mind for me are people like Lionel, obviously a very strong cyclist who can run off of a bike like this.

He's a bigger guy.

You'd probably want to think about somebody who's a smaller cyclist who's still strong.

Who comes to mind for you.

Yeah, it's funny because obviously in the Tour de France we think of the climbers as these obviously really lean, good power to weight ratio athletes.

And maybe because these climbs, they're not like big culls or whatever, you're at altitude.

I think maybe an athlete like Lionel is still quite well suited to this kind of race.

I think he's must.

Even though he's quote bigger guy.

He's not a big guy.

He still probably has a pretty solid, pretty great power to weight ratio.

So someone like him, a Sam Long, a guy like classic Christian Blumenfeld, who's one thing which will be interesting to see is How a guy like Blumenfeld and Gustav and them go in Nice, because then that'll be a predictor of how things will go.

I think in Marbella, to a degree, I guess there's less time to lose time on a 70.3 bike versus a full.

Just those classically, like a Magnus Dit lab, those classically strong cyclists, I don't think they lose, even though maybe they may be perceived as like, bigger, I think because they can also smash those downhill sections, which maybe if the.

If they are technical, we don't exactly know they're on the profile or like the course map, it looks like there's some twists and turns and whatnot.

So that if you're a good.

Like, if you're just a strong cyclist and you know how to handle a bike, you are frothing for this race because the draft effect too, going up hills is not really a thing.

Right.

Paula Finley, Cat Matthews.

Yes.

And Laura Phillip, even Laura Phillips, a great cyclist.

Yeah.

These women had to be just thrilled to see this bike course come out because they're thinking, going to catch those swimmers.

I'm going to drop all of the runners.

Julie Darin as well.

Yeah.

These are women who could really make a huge impact on that.

They could blow the race apart and it could be done by the time they make the turn to come back.

It could really be all about Lucy Charles as well.

She's a great cyclist.

Like that 70.3 women's race will be exceptional as well, just because they all seem to be quite good cyclists, like at the top end.

So it's okay.

Let's see how they go on that bike and then, yeah, it'll all come down to the run for sure.

Now, we don't have start lists for the 70.3 World Championship, so we are speculating a little bit, but all of the names we've mentioned are potential starters, so we will have to see in the next six weeks or so who actually confirms.

And for the Pro series as well.

Because the 70.3 worlds is the last race in the Ironman Pro Series, we could see some big changes potentially in the standings just because of the nature of the bike course.

It may be a lot more unpredictable than what a typical race is.

So, yeah, that makes it exciting as well.

Lots of intrigue and can't wait to watch.

Now, for age groupers, it is a daunting prospect because.

And that's what has caused a lot of chatter, it's caused a lot of angst.

And for age groupers, it really is about management, like leg management, like how to make sure that you're gonna be able to manage this bike course and then be able to run.

And I know that I have spent a lot of time thinking about equipment choice and the big thing that a lot of age groupers are struggling with is road bike versus time trial bike.

Interesting.

So what are your thoughts?

Obviously you're a pro, so you're going to go TT bike, of course.

But if you were to.

I know what I have advised my athletes and what I have told anybody who's asked.

What are your thoughts about a TT bike versus a road bike for a course like this?

Super interesting.

I would say, like we watched this in the Tour de France, right.

Obviously these guys are pros.

Like some athletes, they chose to ride like a road bike or whatever up the climb.

There was like the hill, TT climb.

And then some guys wrote the tt.

Yeah.

But it seemed like the TT athletes actually didn't really get punished too, too much for riding their TT bike from what I could, from what I observed anyway, so that was interesting.

I would say it comes down to in some ways like your comfort in handling the bike.

Like it would be great if there was a way to maybe Google Maps, you can even look at what the potential twists and turns, if there are some look like on the bike course and then make a decision from there.

Because if you are not super comfortable handling a TT bike on, yeah, European roads, narrow European roads, then it might just be a better call to have a road bike with TT bars because you're gonna be able to just get down those hills a lot more comfortable, a lot less stress.

That's.

To me, it seems like that could be a make or break for sure.

Yeah.

And that is something I always tell athletes to think about is your comfort both climbing and descending.

Because let's face it, your position when you're climbing on a TT bike is not quite the same as on a road bike.

When you're on a road bike sitting up, you have an.

Your hip angle is more open.

You're able to recruit some of your hip extenders a little bit more.

Whereas when you're on a TT bike, that hip angle is a little more closed.

You have to use your quads a little bit more to climb and that can hurt you when you get to the run if you're not used to doing that.

So you have to be comfortable climbing on your TT bike if you're going to use it, you definitely have to be comfortable descending on it.

And not everybody is the physics of a TT bike.

It's a more narrow wheelbase, it tends to handle very differently in the corners.

And like you said, knowing the course.

And it is available on Ride my gps.

So you can actually find the course on Ride my GPS and see very detailed what the descent looks like.

Although there's no way to know whether or not there's steep drop offs the way there were in Nice.

Yes, yes.

And Jeff, you obviously have lots of experience with this, like being in the age group field on a race like that, like the congestion.

Do you think it'll be less congested because of the hills?

Is that something to consider when choosing a bike?

What happened in Nice was a loop.

So you went up and it got, it got.

If it was congested on the climb, it didn't matter because everybody was moving very slow.

And then once you got over the top and you started down on the descent, it actually spread out pretty well because the people who were bombing the descent, they just went.

The only problem was, is like people like me who were interested in protecting their lives.

Yeah.

Who want to live.

Who want to live after this.

Don't forget, in Nice, there were a couple people that did go over the side because they cooked the corners too quick.

They hit the, they hit those low rock barriers, they went over the side.

Nobody died.

But there were some serious injuries.

And I'm just not interested in.

That's not what I'm here to do.

But there are people who just, they're racing like that.

And there's a guy in my age group, Laurent Jalabaire, previous Tour de France professional.

I know that name.

He's been doing triathlon for many years.

He wins my age group every single year on the basis of the fact that he can ride these courses like nobody else can.

So he is like a lot of the pros we mentioned.

He's salivating at this course.

He will win my age group by a ton because of his ability both to climb and then to descend.

But for most of us, we're not that good now.

In Nice it was a loop.

Here it's an out and back.

I have no idea what these roads are.

I have to hope.

Now listen, most of us will be gone past the climbs, although I'm not sure, I don't know.

Like, I imagine there's going to be people climbing up as we are descending.

So I don't know.

I don't know how congested it's going to be.

Yeah, I don't know.

From what I saw from the course profile, it looks like the Going up and the coming back, at least on like the main section is there's one.

Place where it's split.

Okay, the one place where it's split.

I just didn't know if it was like that for most of it.

But maybe there's one place where it's split.

But as you go to the second big climb, out to the second big climb is like an out and back section.

So you go to the top of that, you turn around, you descend.

So I don't know what that road is like.

It is a straight road, so I don't anticipate it'll be too terrible, but I don't know, we'll find out.

I'm going to definitely pre ride it and I know that we have some listeners.

Actually there's one listener who has contacted me who actually lives in the area and I'm hoping to get some intel from him, but.

Very good, we'll come back to that.

But I think it really comes down to your comfort level, handling the bike.

And if you're not comfortable handling a bike, a TT bike descending, then that should make the decision fairly easy.

The other thing I think you have to think about is do you have the gearing?

Most of the climbs are top out at about 6%, but there is one climb that's about 2 miles long where the average gradient is 8% and it maxes out at about 11%.

And that is legit.

And I have a TT bike, it's a diamond, it's a one by setup.

And in my one by setup, if I were to take that bike and try to climb a 10% hill or even an 8% over two miles, I'd be pushing way more watts than I want to be.

And there's no spinning up, there's no.

Spinning up that it would really hurt me when I came to the run.

And so I have the luxury of having my old TT bike on my trainer downstairs, which is still a perfectly great bike.

It's an old trick speed concept.

I have wheels for it I kept around just in case this kind of thing happened.

It's got a mid compact on the front.

So I'll be riding basically a 34 on the front and a 32 on the back, which gives me a great gear steering option.

I'll be able to get up anything.

I'm very comfortable descending on it.

So if you find yourself in the position where you don't have the luxury like I do, to Swap out bikes.

But can you get a better cassette and can you get yourself a cassette that's going to allow you to be able to spin to climb these kinds of hills?

Because that's the other thing I think people need to be very.

To be thinking about.

One question I have is around fueling on a course like this, I guess like in a, maybe a standard course, a rolling hill type of course, people might have a fueling plan that's every 15 minutes or whatever.

I take a gel or I take whatever for a course like this.

Because so much effort is required so early on with this hill.

Do you try and front load it a little bit more and really try and fuel as you're going up the hill?

I think you have to.

Yeah, I think you have to.

You've got to get on it.

You go into debt if you don't.

Oh yeah, is that a thing?

And I always tell people, look, you're coming out of the water.

You probably haven't eaten much or anything since breakfast several hours before you really got to start fueling immediately.

There is, I believe, a two or three mile section of a gradual climb.

Until the climb starts in earnest, people are going to have to get on their fueling right away.

And that's sometimes hard.

Right.

Because your heart rate is high from the swim, it's hard to take in fuel.

You're going to be doing this gradual climb, but people are going to have to be very purposeful about being sure to take in calories immediately and take in as much as they can.

Because once you hit that climb, like you said, it's going to be hard.

It's going to be tough to be taking in fuel, especially if you're on a TT bike where it's a little bit tough to get to your nutrition and manage the bike and everything else.

Adjusting the fueling based on that course profile.

Just mentally too.

Like I know in a race when I'm maybe a little behind or something, mentally, I feel like that's where things go bad.

And then I take a gel and all of a sudden I'm superstar again.

So get.

Staying on top of that, getting ahead of that will probably be a key to just having the day that you want out there.

Yeah.

And the last thing I wanna say about this before we talk about training for this race, is how important it's going to be.

Because I mentioned on managing this course how important it's gonna be to make sure that you really stay within your power plan, whatever that plan is, that you develop either for yourself or with your coach.

Because if you find yourself pushing these hills too hard, you are gonna, you're gonna be walking the run.

I mean, it doesn't matter that the last 10 miles are a descent.

If you push way over your normalized power, like if your FTP is 200 and you end up coming back with a normalized power of 200 or 210, you're done.

You are just not going to be able to manage the run.

So people are going to have to be very cautious and ignore the guys that are being heroes or ignore the women that are being heroes and go and buy you and just keep.

Because I remember when I was a niece, that 10 kilometer climb, I was riveted to my power meter.

I made sure I stayed within it.

I enjoyed myself going up that climb because I knew I could go faster.

But I was like, no, I'm saving my legs and I had a great run.

I passed so many guys who were walking and.

Sage advice, sage wisdom from Jeff.

All right, let's move to the training options for people who are preparing for this race, who don't have the luxury of mountainous terrain near them.

So, Matt, what is your advice for people who need to be able to try and prepare for these kinds of climbs?

Yeah, it's funny because I think nowadays there's definitely more options, especially with Zwift and Ruuvi and these online things that can simulate these climbs.

That's been a kind of a game changer, I think, for folks who, yeah, don't have access to big mountain climbs that they can just go out their door or whatever.

I think the obvious one that we all know is like the big gear, low cadence work.

Is that something you would prescribe to an athlete flatlander?

Oh, yeah.

Somebody who I've had athletes who live in Florida and they're going to hilly races and I do that all the time.

Now, the trainer rides are, like you said, game changers.

They're really great that you can prescribe these really long intervals at very high power locatings.

But you don't have a trainer, you don't have an electronic trainer.

And a lot of athletes that don't.

Then, yeah, just go out there, flat terrain, put it in the biggest gear you've got and just pedal, turn the pedals over 60-70 RPM.

And it trains the same muscles the same way as if you were climbing.

What do you have a range for these big gear efforts?

Like, how long should these athletes say for if they're training for nice.

Like how long Would you make them do a Big Year effort, ideally one a month to work out?

Yeah, ideally.

You want to start with doing a bunch of them.

Five minutes, five minutes, five minutes off.

And you want to work your way up to being able to do 30 minutes on.

Because these climbs, that 10K climb in Nice, I want to say, took probably 30 minutes, if not longer.

And so the climbs in Spain are probably going to be longer than that.

So being able to spin and keep your power down is going to be important.

Now, when I say these big gear climbs, I don't want you pushing your FTP.

I want you pushing probably like in the 80 to 90% of your FTP for that amount of time, but doing it at a slow cadence in a big gear.

Yeah.

And.

And do you think 60 maybe is the floor?

Yes.

Go lower than that.

Why wouldn't you want to go lower than.

I've had coaches prescribe 50 rpm in the past.

I wouldn't do that personally ever again.

But why would you not want to go lower than 60?

I mean, I think below that you start losing the efficiency of your muscles, you.

You start getting squares.

Yeah, you're pedaling squares.

Exactly.

And that's a term that's probably known to people who watch professional cycling more than triathlon.

But basically, when you see a cyclist lose, like they're climbing up a hill and you could see they're about to just lose it, it's.

They start.

Their cadence drops, they start looking very inefficient.

And it's called pedaling squares.

And it's just not, it's.

You're not gaining anything pedaling that slowly.

And honestly, I wouldn't want you in a race pedaling in the 60s either.

Absolutely not.

But pedaling in the 60s in training is a good way to build climbing strength.

And then when you get to the race, ideally you want to be in the 70s at least, if not in the 80s.

Yeah.

The one consideration, actually, first thing I would say, if you live in like a windy place, you might like doing these kind of big gear stuff on the trainer is great because you're never going to run out of gears.

Like if, like I remember earlier this year I was in Florida doing some of these kind of efforts and I would run out of gears so quickly because, like, it was windy one way or something.

So that's maybe if you're really trying to lock in, just go on the trainer and do this.

But I'm curious and you can fact check me on this.

When you are climbing a hill like a normal cadence, 80 to 90 or whatever, versus on a flat road doing 60 RPM.

Isn't there like a difference in terms of the muscle fibers that are recruited?

Like.

Yeah, I don't know.

I believe when you start pedaling too slow, you start recruiting more fast switch.

Yeah, yeah.

The type 2 fast twitch.

And then when you're at that, when you're more efficient, you're with your Type 1, you're the slow twitch.

Yeah.

So I guess like maybe for athletes, if they have hills that they can go to and ride a normal cadence, maybe that's preferred because that's the same demands of physiologically that you're going to have.

I don't think it's actually meaningfully different, but it just from what I understand, when you are riding like on a flat road or whatever, doing the locations, there is more of a fast twitch muscle fiber component than just the classic like slow twitch fibers.

But at the end of the day, it's still a great stimulus.

Yeah.

And we should address also, there are a lot of people that live in areas that they're not Florida, where they're pancake flat and they're not here where we have these really long climbs.

But they could be places like Pennsylvania or, I don't know, New York, where they have punchy hills that are just not super long.

And going out and attacking those hills with the steep gradients that maybe only take you five or ten minutes to get up, that's still worthwhile.

Absolutely.

It's still worth doing and repeating them and just doing hill repeats on them is also a really good way to train these muscles and to get used to doing these climbs.

But the trainer intervals of progressively longer is the best way to prepare yourself for what is going to be a very worthy and very difficult worthy if.

You do this race, you're incredible in my books.

Because I'm not doing it.

I am looking forward to it as much as I am dreading it.

I have enjoyed already just thinking about this weekend.

We're going to Salt Lake City.

My daughter has a pole vault meet.

My son is renting a bike.

I'm bringing a bike.

And we have a couple of pretty big climbing rides planned.

So we're.

Yeah, some big climbs in that area.

That'll be fun.

That'll be good fun.

It's gonna be good times.

All right.

This has been good fun.

We hope that you've enjoyed it.

If you have any comments or questions, we hope that you will send them to us.

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And don't forget to share it with a friend.

Matt, it's been a lot of fun.

We had a great conversation again this week.

I look forward to catching up with you next week to review what happened in the French Riviera and to look ahead to what's coming up in the world of triathlon.

Yes, for sure.

Thanks, Jeff.

Good times as always.

It.