Dr. Sabba Quidwai, CEO and Futurist of Designing Schools, joins the podcast to discuss the rapid acceleration of AI and its impact on the future of work. She explores how schools can manage this change, move beyond app-focused training, and redefine learning to foster human agency.

• Designing Schools
• Wings of Wisdom Podcast (Sabba's Podcast)
• Book: Linchpin: Are You Indispensable? by Seth Godin
• Sparketype Assessment
• Desert Sands Unified School District AI Guidance
• Forbes Article: "Agency Is The New Literacy" by Dan Patrick
• The Knowledge Society (TKS)
• Alpha School
• Podcast: The Diary of a CEO
• Podcast: The Artificial Intelligence Show

Matt, welcome to Talking technology with ATLIS,

the show that plugs you into the important topics and trends for

technology leaders all through a unique Independent School lens.

We'll hear stories from technology directors and other

special guests from the Independent School community,

and provide you with focused learning and deep dive topics.

Hello, everyone. My name is Ashley cross. I'm the

Senior Director of Education and content here at Atlas, and today

I am filling in for Christina Lewellen. And I am joined by

Bill Stites, the Director of Technology at

Montclair Kimberly Academy in Montclair, New Jersey. And

I'm Hiram Cuevas, the Director of Information

Systems and Academic Technology at St Christopher school in

Christopher school in Richmond,

Virginia. Awesome. Well, welcome guys. I appreciate

you letting me tag team with you today. Without Christina, she's

on the road. She's got a very busy travel schedule. And you

know, it's that time of year the weather is finally starting to

cool down. What are you most excited about anything in

particular this year that you get to do when it starts to

become fall.

I love fall because it is at this time of year in

particular, because you have playoff baseball and you have

the football season going, which is two of my favorite things

about this time of year, two of my favorite sports. And I just

love the cool days. Love getting outside. I got a actually got a

smoker, so I'm, you know, throwing a bunch of stuff down

on that. I am practicing my culinary arts in the field of

smoking meats, because that's what you do. When you get over

50 years old, lose all your hair and have nothing but a gray

beard, that's what you end up doing with your life. But I'm

enjoying that and feeding a lot of people here at school,

because I make a lot and share with people

as someone who just loves being outside and

hiking and running outdoors, this is the time of year when I

get to enjoy the fall colors and also sit outside and have a nice

backyard fire going in the evenings. Nothing better than

sitting outside with my bride and our big

old black lab, very good. So I think my

favorite fall pastime is finding some type of pumpkin patch or

apple orchard. So I'm definitely gonna have to look those up.

Apple cider donuts. There you go.

And we'll say, in the Deep South, I live in

Alabama, and so it doesn't really feel like fall, except

for at like 6am from like six to seven, we get a little bit of

fall, and it goes back up to 90, you know, maybe at night it'll

cool down, so we'll have to investigate that. Well, let's go

ahead and introduce our guest today. We have Dr saba kidway,

and she is the CEO and futurist of designing schools. I've been

following her work for a while, but most recently, I got to see

her keynote at ISTE. She's an author, a speaker, a podcast and

just a big thought leader in the AI and educational space. So

Saba, welcome. We're so excited to have you with us today. Oh

my gosh. Me too. Me too. So to

kick us off, tell us what is your favorite fall

pastime. Do you have anything exciting that you guys are going

to do now that it's starting to cool down a little

bit? You know, one of my favorite times of year

to visit Disneyland is Halloween, and this year we're

taking my niece and nephew for the first time. So I feel like

we've all been there like as adults. I always feel like you

see the world and every experience in a totally new way

when you do it through the eyes of kids who are doing something

for the first time. So we're excited to take them like

Halloween to Disneyland is beautiful,

and what costume will you wear? Oh, that's a good

question. I

don't know. I'll probably have to, like,

coordinate with them and kind of see what they're doing and do

something like that.

So as a Disney adult, I've been to Disney World

during Halloween, and that is the absolute best they had a

nighttime event. It was an after hours event, and you would go

and they would have stuff out, and you went trick or treating

up and down Main Street. Was absolutely one of the best times

that I ever went. If anyone gets a chance to go, that's a great

time to visit.

Oh, wow, nice. I agree. That's a lot of fun. And

tell us where is home for you,

Orange County, California. Okay, so you're

pretty close by to there. Nice, yes, we're really close to

Disneyland. Not Disney World, but Disneyland, right?

Well, tell our audience a little bit about your

origin story. And so for people that may not be familiar with

you and your work, give us an overview of basically who you

are and what you do, but like, how did you get to that space?

Yeah,

you know, it's so funny. I think about that a lot

lately, because I asked myself the same question, how did you

sort of get here, and what drove you to do some of the things?

And I think it really speaks to, like, the power of curiosity.

And that's kind of what I think is a thread that I see

throughout, like, being self reflective on, like, what's

happening in my life, what's happening in my world. Why are

things happening and being intentional about that? And so I

always say that I think the real reason I come here and I was

able to be in this space is my own experience as a student. So

I graduated in 2007 which, you know, if anybody remembers back

then, it was, you know, also the year the iPhone came out, but

just a couple months later, it was also the recession in 2000

Eight, you know, also, ironically, the launch of the

App Store. And so I always say, with my first job also came my

first layoff notice. And yeah, it's kind of embarrassing to

admit, but like, I'd never really heard the word layoff.

I'd never heard the word pink slip or any of those kinds of

things before, nor really seen anybody go through that, either.

And so it was a real shock to the system, if you will, that,

you know, I I did my bachelor's, like I went to UC Irvine, like I

did my master's, I did my credential. I had an incredible

first year, and at the end of it, it was just like, sorry,

like class size increases and whatnot, and we're getting rid

of all of our first and second year teachers. And that would

kind of be the story of my career for the next four years

or so. And I remember I was about to make a switch into

marketing, and because of that, I came across a book by Seth

Godin, called linchpin. And in that book, he really broke down

like, hey, like that deal, you go to school, you get good

grades, and all these things, like, you know, happily ever

after that expired. And like no one told you, today's world of

work wants, like, not just problem solvers, but like

problem finders and people that, instead of complaining about

things, instead of, you know, people who can see opportunity,

and instead of waiting for somebody else are going to be

the ones to take initiative, to come up with a plan, to propose

something, and to just do work that energizes you. And I was

like, okay, like, I can do that. And so it just so happened the

next interview I had was with a private school, and that private

school was looking to go one to one with devices. And this is

about 2011 and also probably embarrassing to admit that at

that time, I was about as opposite as I am from today. I

was like, so anti technology. I thought it was gonna, like, ruin

the world and like, socialization was just gonna go

down the drain. But even though I was very project based, the

one thing that sold me when they came to me and were like, hey,

we want to go one to one, we need some people at test, I was

like, okay, that's the initiative. That's the linchpin,

like mindset that Seth Godin talked about, I'm going to be

all in even though I've never touched an iPad, but it meant I

didn't have to book the computer lab anymore. And I think for

anyone who does anything project based, you know, like your

schedule does not stay as your schedule. And so it was always

problematic for me that it was a real inflection point for me in

my own learning, because I'll never forget the first video

project that I signed. I had a lot of English language

learners, and one of the first projects I signed was a video

project, and it was like analyzing these historical

documents. And I will never, ever, ever forget the different

personalities I saw emerge when the kids had an opportunity to

create those videos. And I was like, mind blown. I was like,

Are these like, the same people that, like, are sitting in my

classroom all day long. It was just their personalities just

came out in a different way. And my being able to like, see that

engage with that really allowed me to get to know them on a

deeper level. And so my whole perception of what I thought

technology was versus how I was watching it play out in my own

experience sent me down that rabbit hole and really sort of

asking, Why did nobody show me the difference between personal

and academic and professional use? Because in my personal

life, like I had grown up with, like, camcorders, video cameras,

personal computers, like our dad was so into that I just never

really made the connection to my work, I guess, in that way. And

so that was very eye opening, not just for the students, but I

feel like it was through the iPad like and we can maybe talk

about this later, but I talk about this a lot, how a lot of

people think writing is the only medium through which you find

your voice. I would say I didn't really find my true voice until

I was in my 30s, when I started doing iPad and started doing

video. And I think it's different for everybody, but I

do think it's really worth us thinking about, hey, what does

having a voice mean? What does finding your voice actually

mean? And me finding my voice in my 30s really led me then to

wonder, why did nobody put this on my radar? Because clearly

Steve Jobs knew Mark Zuckerberg knew Facebook, Twitter, YouTube,

all these applications were being built and developed, and

that wasn't even part of my world that I was even being

exposed to. And I started to really wonder why. And when I

look down that path, you know, you begin to realize, wow. Like

there were a lot of people talking about how this was what

was going to happen, and this was the trajectory we were on.

My professors had this knowledge available to them. They just

didn't really integrate it into my experience. And so I started

looking at, what would the next big inflection point be. We knew

it was going to be AI. This is back in about 2014 when I

started doing this. But nobody, not one single person, had on

their radar that it would be like what we see now, if

anything, people thought it would be the opposite, that this

version of AI would be the last version that we would see. And

so in 2017 I went back to school to do my doctorate, and could

design thinking be the method we use to help people prepare for

existing and also the emerging technologies, specifically AI

and I graduated in 2020 was covid, but because I was so into

video, I did a documentary, and that got slowed down a little

bit. So came out September 2022 and then chat GPT came out in

November, so you could call it luck, but I really attribute it

to curiosity, pausing in those moments to ask questions about

why things were happening the way they were happening, and

just being curious enough to go seek out books, people,

resources, because it's unbelievable the access to

knowledge and people that we have in today's world.

Absolutely So. Saba, I'm curious now that

you're in fully immersed in AI, have you tried to create your

document? Men are using AI,

you know, I haven't, although I will tell

you, Sora, too, came out yesterday, and it's been pretty

unbelievable, if you've had a chance to see in the videos, but

being pretty unbelievable to watch all the videos that people

are creating. So you can basically, like, take a video of

yourself, and you get to choose how much of your likeness you

want to hand over and how much you would like to retain for

yourself, because other people can take your video that you

upload and they can remix and they can make it. So obviously,

you know, Sam Altman uploaded his and so if you go online,

it's almost like a new social media app they've created where

people can just create these AI generated videos based on

people, and obviously other things. But everybody's making a

video of Sam Altman doing all these different kinds of things.

And so I always say every single person has their area that they

don't want AI to touch, and that varies, and I think it's so

important to, like, lean into that. Because I think when you

see an area and you're like, No, I don't want AI to touch this.

Like, no, I want to do this, I think that probably speaks to

something that you have that is unique to you, that is the

strength of yours. Not saying you should ignore the role of AI

in that place, but there's something about that that's

special to you, and you should lean into that, because it means

that you have maybe an advantage in that space that's going to

make you unique. But I will say AI video and audio is freakishly

better and better by the day.

Hence, James elder Jones is licensing for his voice

is out there in AI now.

So I have had a really interesting morning, and

it speaks to, I feel like kind of echoing what you described

with your origin stories. I went and I had coffee with a relative

this morning, and she actually was laid off last month after 47

years of working as a medical transcriptionist because of AI.

And literally, I'm having coffee with this woman, and my sister

text me. My sister works at PAYCOM corporate, and she says,

we're having a meeting. They're laying off 500 people. They just

opened up the AI division. And so it was really fascinating,

because again, personally, I haven't had any direct touch

points of layoffs, and especially layoffs related to

emerging tech like this. And then this morning, right before

this call, like I had two right in a row, and so I was just

looking at news. Was looking at other things happening in the

world this week. Accenture, which is a massive company, they

have hundreds of 1000s of employees, but they're laying

off 11,000 people, and they said, employees without, quote,

unquote, get this AI potential. But there's an article about it

in The Times of India that was talking about all of this and

the future of work, and it said specifically how it would reward

those who are prepared to learn, unlearn and relearn at pace. And

so as we think about kind of this moment that we're situated

and where this is going in the short term. What are your

thoughts on this, and how can schools best prepare our

students to be adaptive for this type of future?

Yeah, wow. You know, I always tell people like,

There's nothing easy about this transition or this work. As you

step into it, it's going to be hard. And I think I've also now

started to say that, like, I think people should get ready

for things that are going to be very painful to watch, friends,

family, people that are going to go through things that a lot of

people have told them wouldn't happen the last two, three

years, ever since chat to me. No humans are never going to be

replaced. No relationships, no this, know that. And I always

say, like, I don't know how you live in the United States of

America, which is based on, like, corporate like,

everything, and have that mindset. It's just simply not

true at all. So I think the one really good side to this is more

people are going to have that reality check of, like, whoa.

Like, this is something I need to take seriously. This is

something that is going to impact, that could impact us in

many ways. And I always say, like, if you're the person who

because there are two kinds of people, right? There's the

people were like, This is hype. This is not that great. They

have, like, an interaction with AI, it doesn't do what they want

it to do, and they just write it off right away. Then you have

another group of people who are like, Okay, this is like, not

perfect, but it's wild that it got to this, to this in the last

six months. I need to be paying attention to this. And I always

say, if you're this person, even if it never gets better, and

even if this person ends up being right, the worst thing

that happened to you is you double down on your own skill

set and became better at what you do. But this person doesn't

have a lot of hope to look forward to, because to catch up

to where this person is going to be, I don't want to say, is

going to be impossible, but it's going to put you so far behind

that to catch up likely means you don't have those mindset and

skills to begin with to even probably be able to get there.

So I always say everybody should operate with this mindset, that

AI is going to be better than me, that AI could take my job,

and if it did take my job, what are all the things that I never

even get to do that I wish I could do that I can focus on

doubling down on now, and I think that person is just going

to be at an advantage, at least, compared to the other one. I'll

say the other thing that we're starting to see a lot as well

now are a lot more data reports being done. So if you kind of

remember how previously, when new models used to come out, it

was like this, like random coding exam, or like the touring

test, or things that just are not related. Bull to me, and you

right, because we don't really do those kinds of work. I think

it was just this week, or maybe last week, they released

something called GDP Val So GDP standing for gross domestic

product, and like, the value that is produced from economic

work in like labor from the economy. And they took, don't

like quote me on any of this, but it's nine industries, and I

think 44 occupations across those industries, and they took,

they chose it by the highest contributing industries to GDP

and to the economy. And basically what they did was a

blind test. Okay? So they took real tasks that people do in

their day to day. Now, these were more basic level tasks.

They weren't super complex, but this is the starting point for

being like, okay, you know what? We need a proper way to measure

how AI is impacting work, and what is that quality that it is

contributing compared to a person. So I want to say the

people had 14 years of experience. So it's not like

they took like a new grad and did it off with them. These were

industry professionals that had 14 years of experience, and they

basically gave the AI a task, they gave the person a task, and

then they did a blind test when looking at the output, and I

think it was like 46 it was a little under 50% of people rated

the AI work as the good output, as the human work. And so it

gives you a huge indicator that when we think about sort of we

always tell people to put like 2030 as like the year we should

be aiming for, because that's when people say we'll have like

that artificial general intelligence, right? These

computers can do tasks that humans can do. And so this GDP

val is one really, really, really big data point for us

that I imagine they'll keep iterating, you know, keep doing,

like a testing on to be like, You should look at that and you

should be like, Okay, it's time to take this seriously, but also

not be intimidated. Because I think the one thing the report

did share also was that when it came to things that were more

ambiguous, again, going back to like Seth Godin, right, things

that like, there was no clear cut answer for that is where

humans still had a significant advantage. And I think when you

think about work, when you think about the world, you think about

any space, there's just no shortage of problems to be

solved. And I think a lot of people spend their time doing

work that one, they don't really even want to be doing to begin

with. But number two is not what truly gives them that meaning

and purpose. But if we're going to get to that kind of work, we

do have to be like, it's not enough to just like, let me give

you AI. It's okay. How are we going to redesign some of the

things that we do to actually allow people to get to that

level. So I would say, like, you know, I'm not a person who

debates the kinds of stats, if anything, I think we're still

not hearing enough about how people and companies are

thinking. Because no company or person is going to come out and

say, like, yeah, we're going to start laying everyone off

because of AI, right? People dance around it, they slowly do

it and things like that. Once one person does it, they're

like, they did it. We'll just jump in that bandwagon with them

too, and do it too. But I think there's a lot of information out

there that tells us what we should be getting ready for.

You touched on a lot of things there that I want

to ask you. With all of that, how does that change the role of

the teacher? What does that look like in the classroom as we

project what you're saying forward? Where does the teacher

fit in? What do we need to be doing? One of the things

Christina talks about a lot of times is her daughter going

through teacher training right now, and the lack of focus on AI

right now. So how does that need to change? How do we need to

prepare our teachers that we have in the building right now?

What do we, Hiram and I need to be doing from a PD, ATLIS need

to be doing from a PD standpoint, and what do our

colleges and universities need to be doing to prepare teachers

to operate in this world that you're describing?

Yeah, it's so funny. She said that because I

had the same experience. I'm a supervisor at UC Irvine, the

credential program, and it's shocking to me how, even though

UC Irvine is such a progressive institution, with just an

amazing AI rollout plan, and every tool available to every

single person how it was a very minimal part of their

experience. And so this goes back to anyone's experience over

the last like, I'll just use two decades, because that's like my

experience. But I'm sure people could go back further. Is that I

think we too often focus on the technology first. Like, What

apps do we need? Let's train you on these apps. Let's show you

how it fits into what you're already doing. And I think that

kind of mindset never really served us in the past, and I

think it's going to do a disservice to us. I don't know

that it hurt us tremendously in the past, but I think with AI,

when you start with the tools and it's like, okay, well,

here's how you can use it for what you're doing here, and

here's how you can do it for you to how you can do it for you're

doing here, which I think is needed, because people have to

have some experience and exposure and context. But I

think, I guess, I just wish more people spent time really

discussing as a team, given all of this that's happening, like

even if I was to take just what Ashley said, nothing else, and I

only took that snippet of what she said. What does that mean

for teaching and learning in our organization? And I think you

have to make it granular like that, because everybody's in a

very different place. There are some people who are just super,

super, super traditional in their instruction. They still

are using stoplight models. They still are fixated that essays

are. The only ways that people can think and find their voice.

You're not going to be able to do a 180 on that institution

overnight and get them to, like, project based learning and some

other new way, kind of doing something that's going to be a

mindset shift. And so you're going to have people like, I was

just talking to a district yesterday, like we do competency

based learning. They like amazing things that are

happening. Your foundation is totally different when thinking

about the design of that learning journey. And so I guess

what I wish is more people would talk about, what do we mean by

thinking, Yeah, and if you've seen there was a really

beautiful book written by Seymour Saracen a long time ago,

and the title of the book was, What do you mean by learning?

And I think we should also really zone in on what do you

mean by thinking. I think people throw the word thinking around

so loosely, but if you actually ask them, okay, well, show me

what thinking looked like. What did that journey look like for a

person? I think very few people can respond to that. And I think

leaning into those questions and then being like, okay, being

really honest about where you are, and this is where we need

to go, and mapping what that journey is going to look like

for people is probably one of the best things you can do for

your community, to look at, how do we fast track this? And the

one big difference and advantage we have is, prior to AI tools,

you would have to have done that work alone, but now you can use

your AI tools to fast track this like no other. And so that's

what my life little wish would be. And when we work with

people, this is what we're doing. So

Saba, you kind of piqued my interest a little bit

here, because, as a futurist, where do you think the teaching

profession is going to end up? So I'm thinking of schools like

alpha School, which is now utilizing AI for two hours a day

and then engaging them with all these life experiences outside

of that. Where are we headed? And where do you think that

endpoint is going to reside, given that. And ATLIS works with

independent schools, so we cherish the relationship between

the teacher and the child. So where do you think this is going

to go as a futurist?

Yeah, I think even that definition, like

relationship between teacher and child, like, what does that mean

to you? What does that look like to you? I think even that is

worthy of question, because I think there are some people who

think that relationship means I'm standing in front of a room

and I'm helping you become your best writer so that you can go

on and be this great thinker. I don't think relationships for

people always translate to things that we see at alpha,

where I'm helping you discover your strengths and follow your

interests and launch things and create things. So I again, go

back to there's a lot of things I think people use loosely, that

defining those gives you clarity around how to design what comes

next. But what I like about what alpha has done is that they have

given you a very visible model for what things can look like.

Because I think when things are hypothetical, you don't have a

context or a schema for something. It's hard to see. You

know, when I think about alpha, I think a lot about John Dewey

and the things that he talked about back then, about what

learning should look like. I think, first of all, a lot of

misconceptions about what she's building and what she's doing.

But I think when you follow her online and you listen to her

students stories, this is a big thing we often look for, and I

think anyone should look for is who's telling the story? Is it

just the adults telling the story? Is it the students and

the teachers telling the stories too? And there are two

organizations that always come to mind for me when I think

about this. One is alpha, which is like, your more traditional,

you know, she's building like, kind of like a K 12 model. But

the other one is the knowledge society. So the knowledge

society is an extracurricular, I think it's for students 10 to

16, where basically they bring you in for about 10 weeks, and

some of the programs might be longer, but they expose you to

all of these existing and emerging technologies, and they

help you build a project. And it's unbelievable to see what

their kids do. And they always talk about how their kids come

in with a lot of times no knowledge at all about any of

these, but they build their mindsets, their habits and their

skills in that space, and it's unbelievable to see their

progress. So I think students stories are a really beautiful

way of being able to look at what things can look like. But I

think at the end of the day, when we go back to you know what

your question in the teaching profession, it's that being able

to motivate, inspire, and coach and really be that guide with

them along the way, to help them discover, I always say, the

greatest gift any educator gives you is they help you see parts

of yourself that you didn't know exist, and they help you nurture

that. They see something in you that you're just too young or

you know you don't have the experience to either see or

believe in yourself. But they see it in you. They nurture it

in you. And that's over time, how you grow and how you evolve.

One of the

terms that I think we use often in schools is the

idea of a lifelong learner. And the Lifelong Learner implies

that you're constantly iterating. You're constantly

developing. When you think about where we are, where we're going,

one of the things that when I was reading some of the stuff

about you prior to us getting on today, was it talked about

change, and how you manage change. What is your process

for? Like working with schools, working with people to manage

that process. Because I think change management is one of

those big umbrella things that can be applied in a lot of

different areas, but in particular, when you start

thinking about what we're doing with tech. Technology, what

we're doing with AI, what we're doing with all the things that

we're talking about. The idea of change management is something

that you really need to work on and plan for. And I'm curious as

to how you go about that. Yeah, you

know, every arrow is a little bit different, but

one of the things I think is important right now is really

grounding people and all the things that are working well, I

think when things change too much around you. You need some

foundation. Be like, okay, but I got this part down. We got this

part out. And so we love doing it on two, one from an

organizational perspective, we call it like an AGI learning

walk. So we talk with the leadership team about what is

AGI? Where are we headed in 2030 what will technology look like

in 2030 and given this, let's go walk your campus and see where

we're seeing these like pockets of excellence that we can scale

to be able to meet that moment. So once you do it on an

organizational level, people realize, like, Okay, wow. Like,

our teacher collaboration efforts are unbelievable. We

have this time and space carved out for people to learn. Our

like entrepreneurship program over here, the kids are just

thriving over here, like they're doing, x, y, z, and so a lot of

people have a lot of positives going for them. And it's really,

really, really important to acknowledge that a lot of people

have even the basics of amazing vision, mission values on their

website. We need to resurface all of these pieces, because

we're going to leverage them in what we design next. Then after

the organizational one is done, we do individuals. I think it's

so important for people right now to have, like, a really

strong identity and who they are, what they do and what

energizes them. There's a couple ways to do this, but one of our

favorites is the spark type, because it specifically talks

about what energizes you at work, and it's free as well.

There's other ones, like the Gallup cliftonstrengths and

things like that. But I really love starting with the spark

type, and it just again, gives people language to speak about

themselves, about their organizations at a time when it

feels like you're losing control, because that's where we

don't want people to be, and one of the ways you remove that

feeling is by giving them the things that they do have control

over, and the things that are working really well, because we

don't want to neglect those either. We want to build on

those things. And once you have those pieces, then, like I said,

you do a little of like an autopsy. Okay, where are we at?

Where do we want to go? And what is that learning journey going

to look like along the way for different people, and it looks

different for different people, but I think that is a really

strong place to start, versus Hi everyone. We bought, everybody.

Magic School. Let's go and go update our lesson plans and go

do x, y, z. This is, to me, I think one of the biggest reasons

why people in education have a very flawed understanding of the

technology in general. Because you think about the people you

talked about this morning at Accenture, at these

transcription companies and whatnot, these people are all

using authentic, real models they're using, the chat, GPT,

the Geminis, things like that. These models that most people

are using in education are so basic and can barely do

anything, and are so perpetuating the status quo that

most people who have exposure to AI, especially because majority

of people do not pay for AI tools themselves, so unless an

organization is going to provide it to them, or unless you are

making the effort to actually pay for the tool and then also

use those tools, you really don't actually understand the

power of the technology and how it's impacting your day to day.

And so to me, this is a really big challenge in the education

space, which is why I really appreciated Google giving people

Gemini, because it's the only tool that people will actually

get exposure to. To be like this is actually what technology

does, not what you're seeing over here, here, here.

It's interesting that you mentioned the cost of a

tool, like paying for a tool and using a tool, because I think

that is where, at least on our side of it, as we're thinking

about rolling these things out, where we haven't had the chance

to really dive into those tools. You know, until you sign that

contract to get into it, there's this amped up anxiety around, oh

my god, we just spent X amount on this. Now we have to really

focus on using this tool. And you might find out halfway

through, this tool wasn't the tool. So to your point about

Google and Gemini. That's one of the things that I was really

excited about. You know, it changed our conversations that

we were having here at school almost overnight, or literally

overnight, because it was one of those things that was like,

which one are we going to use? What are the age requirements?

Is it covered underneath of the use in schools? You know, all of

those pieces. And then when that door opened up, it was like, Oh,

hold on a second. Now we can kind of really go all in here.

And one of our previous guests was with Google. She gave us

this great resource that Google's just put out on, like,

how do you use AI in a school? And it's really that level of

commitment, that level of openness from Google is really

going to make this exploration phase a lot easier, because

there's no longer that cost barrier to entry. There's no

longer that age barrier to entry. It's just, let's use it.

Let's talk about it. Let's figure out how we're going to

make this work in

schools and Bill another piece to that is because

it's a core. Service. It created that wall garden for us in the K

12 space, 100% which is huge. And as you were talking about

Saba, all these free GPT tools that are out there, you don't

have that wall garden the same way that you do with Gemini. And

that's a big plus for Google schools. Yeah,

absolutely. I think it's this big plus for

people's experience. I always tell people, like, even if you

don't want to go, if you don't want to go down the route of

Gemini, later on, you decide it's not for you, you will have

definitely have gained the skills for working with this

technology, and you just don't get those skills with some of

these AI education apps. And this might go back to like, you

know, we're in a position now where people have just made

decisions and choices that you can't now undo, and so now your

next best thing to do is be like, Okay, we did this. We gave

people that, you know, exposure. We got them over their fear and

whatnot. What are you going to do now to get them out of that

and into something real, to really kind of meet the moment

that's coming over

here. This reminds me a lot of the internet bubble

that we had 1520, years ago. You know where it was like, everyone

was figuring out what they're going to do on the internet, and

everyone had this great new thing that you could do on the

internet. And like, three, four years later, half those

companies were gone. And that's what I'm sensing right now. It's

like, everywhere you turn it's like, Hey, we've got AI in this,

or we're doing AI over here. And it's just like, find me. The big

players that aren't going to go anywhere, that are going to be

around, that are established, that are bought in, and are at

that foundational level where others are building upon them.

Let me engage there, because I know those are going to stick

around, you know, and then in a little while, we'll know how the

rest of them shuffle out.

Absolutely, absolutely and, you know, it's

sort of like, it goes back to, like, remember, like remember,

like with iPads and things like that, the more blank canvas your

tool was, the deeper you were able to go. And it's also

harder, though, right? Because, again, it's a blank canvas. But

I think alongside that, like really helping people, and I

think the tools do a really good job of this. You know, we have

that spark prompting framework, which is basically an empathy

interview, really getting people to talk more about the

challenges they have, but also their hopes and dreams. And I

think really nurturing that muscle of being more ambitious

and being able to name your challenges is one of the most

important, like human skills to really be working on. Because,

you know, we always say that, like, you know, AI tools are

amazing and they can do so much, but like, they need, like your

human Spark, like you have to go in and light the fire. You're

the one that's got to go in with a big idea, or the challenge you

think is unsolvable, and work with it to be able to do that.

And then it can, kind of like, show you what it's made of and

how good it is and what it can do, and also what it can't do in

many ways as well. And so I think that experience is very

empowering for people. Is what we find versus the I've actually

found this that, like, I think a lot of people are very hesitant

because of people's fears to go too deep into things or be too

ambitious. But what I've personally found is the more

ambitious you are, the more excited people are. People rise

when there's a challenge, when there is something more purpose

driven, more meaningful to them, even if it feels harder than

like, oh, push this button and get this lesson plan. Because,

you know, we know you're scared of AI. So let's just give you

something small. I don't find people relate to that well, they

question it, they challenge it. It's a threat to their

expertise. But you start with them and what they need, and you

say, Okay, here's a little tool to help you do that. I find

people lean in more to that challenge.

So you have the tool. You've got them leaning in

a little bit more. How do you restructure teaching and

learning and assessment?

Oh, that's so big. Let's just like wave our

magic wand.

You know, I think for so many things, like I said, it's a

journey. I think you have to map where you are and where you

would like to go. One of the things that I also think is

important to think about, you know, I did my research. You

know, I did my research at design 39 and one of the things

that really drew me to design 39 was how their teachers worked in

teams, and they worked in teams to redesign all of those things

you just mentioned. And I think I saw them for the first time in

maybe 2014 is when I saw them first. And I knew then I was

like, I want to tell this story. Because while to me, I was like,

How is me as a public school teacher having to work by

myself? Here's another public school over here where nine

people all get to work together. Like, why is there this

difference? And why is that the exception and not the norm? And

so in 2017 when I went back to school, I was like, I'm going to

study those people. Because they never stopped. They kept going

and building and building and building. And it was really

fascinating to me to do like a research dissertation on what

skills do we need, or what does the future of teaching and

learning look like for AI, but have technology be such a small

part of it. So I think the one thing I would say is, as we

think about redesigning those assessments, and as we think

about doing those things, I'll tell you what it doesn't mean.

It doesn't mean that we go put a chat bot in the hand of every

single kid and say, Okay, now you're going to sit here, and

now you're going to do x, y, z. And I think that's the

misconception people have with alpha. Like, at alpha, like,

they know there are still metrics we need to hit, there

are still test scores our kids need to be proficient in. There

are still things they need to do. We need to check those

boxes. But like, let's just create some time to check those

boxes here, and then let's spend the rest of your time. Time with

people, building things, creating things, learning

things. And I think that is where assessment needs to go. Is

more on the building and the creating of things for real

world, you know. And doesn't always have to be that your

product has to be made public or things have to be made public,

but I think that portfolio based approach is so incredibly

powerful. Like learning about yourself and how you're growing

and what your strengths are, and being reflective, like, even as

I told you, right, like my own journey, like constantly being

reflective on, like, Okay, wait a minute. Why did this happen? I

learned this. I did this. This led to this. It helps you

collect a bunch of dots. You know, it's like Steve Jobs says

you can only make sense of those dots looking back, not forwards.

But we need to help people collect as many different dots

as possible through their lives that they can look back on and

make sense of, and to go and be like, This is who I want to be.

This is how I want to contribute in the world. And so I think

there are a lot of small places you can start like, to me,

design thinking is like the best way to do this, because you lean

into people's strengths, interests, needs, all those

types of things, and AI tools are amazing at design thinking.

AI tools, that's one area where I can say, AI tools are better

than people when it comes to integrating design thinking.

I've been doing these workshops for years and years and years.

Their people struggle with the ideation. People can do the

empathy interviews. They can define the problem. They can do

that. But you take it further than that, and then you have to

go implement and execute. They have a really hard time putting

those pieces together quickly. AI tools do not, they don't have

that constraint, limitation, whereas we do. And so it's a

partner for you, if you're somebody who can only see

constraints. And yeah, but this, but okay, we're going to wait

six months. We're going to do this. That's a hard thing to

work with. Your AI tool doesn't have that limitation, so work

together with it to design and build what it is that you want.

So you had mentioned working with several

schools, and I know your company, you guys do consulting,

you work with schools all over are there any other stories that

you can share with us of and it doesn't have to be specifically

about AI, but just schools doing great things that we could learn

from in our community.

Yeah, I'll tell you one. This one is just very

personal to me, and that is the safety of children. I've noticed

when it comes to schools, we categorize safety as inside of

school and outside of school, not explicitly, but that's

basically what we mean when we say, No, I need to do this

because I have to monitor them here, here, here, but that

doesn't translate to helping somebody be safe when they're on

their own. And so one of the things that I really encourage

people to do right now is like, yes, and like, most of the

things that will go wrong for kids with AI won't happen

between eight to three. They will happen after school, at

home, when a company is marketing a tool to them, when a

company is giving them a tool, when they're on their social

media ads, where AI is integrated everywhere. When

they're upset with a friend and they want somebody to talk to

you, but there's nobody there. Most of the things that make

kids vulnerable happen to them outside of school, not inside of

school. And so one of the things that I have really enjoyed doing

with people, and I think that the one that really was the

first to do this, that's why I'm sharing them, even though

there's others, is desert sands unified. And if you go to desert

sands unified, you just type desert sands AI guidance. One of

the things desert sands did that is very unique. They created a

decision making framework for not just their students, but for

all stakeholders when it comes to communicating how they're

using AI. And not from like a punishment standpoint, or like a

we need to like question you type standpoint, but from a

Okay, how did you come to this conclusion? Almost like showing

your work on a math problem, like tell us about the choices

you made. How did you make that decision? But also giving them

questions and guidance on how to make decisions when using tools

that there's not really an answer for how you should or

shouldn't. And that's why, when we each share our own thinking

process for how we got there, we all help each other get better

and stronger. Because maybe you thought of something. Let's say,

you know, all of us here sat and we prepared for this podcast

using AI, and we, you know, maybe did some research, maybe

we generated questions, maybe we took some time to like, learn

about each other or connect dots between our experiences. And

instead of just coming and just having the conversation, we each

spend time saying, like, oh yeah, this is how I did it. This

is why I did it, this is what I did. And we each share. We would

each learn so much from each other about our process, but we

might also question things like, oh, like, I don't know if that

was the best idea or, like, you did this, but did this happen

and like this and that? So it creates this culture where we

are constantly sharing ideas, examples and things like that

that just help us become better at how we make decisions. And,

you know, earlier this year, in January, I think, was the COO of

LinkedIn. He was like, the number one interview question

people should be able to answer is, tell me a story about a time

used AI at work or at home, and for kids, we change work to

school. So tell me story about school or home. And when I hear

somebody say, I want a story, they're not asking me for my

technological proficiency. They're asking me for a

beginning, a middle and an end. They want to know what made you

do that to begin with, what was that spark? For you. What

happened along the way? How did you make choices? How did you

make decisions? What was good, what worked, and what did you do

when something worked, and vice versa? And then what was the

end? What was the impact? What did you learn from that? And I

think the reason people are going to become increasingly

curious about that answer to that question is they know they

cannot monitor you. 24/7, it's impossible. There was an article

the Harvard Business Review just did something about how, like,

you've been AI work slopped or something like that. Like, it's

basically this concept that now people know these tools exist,

but they don't really know how to work well with them, so

they're turning in, like, garbage work, and it's creating

more work for people. But it's also very obvious. Like, either

things don't make sense, they haven't fact checked it, or it's

just like bad quality, and it's becoming a real problem for

people. So that decision making and me being able to rely on

your ability to use things in a way that aligns with whoever

vision values you're working for, I think, is going to become

really important. And I say that because I understand that we

have to monitor like. It's not an either or like, yes, we need

to monitor. We need to do these things, but we can't do it at

the expense of leaving kids vulnerable in other spaces,

whether that's because of an AI companion social media, or

because in an interview, you're not going to have a good answer

or experiences to be able to share. So I think it's okay to

go slow in this moment. I think it's a lot of pressure to go

quickly because of just how much AI is in the news, but I wish

more people would slow down. And I often tell people, you know,

like Steve Jobs didn't grow up with an iPhone. Elon Musk didn't

drive a Tesla growing up, there was no such thing as Amazon for

Jeff Bezos when he was growing up. But each of these people

have one thing in common, and that is curiosity. They know how

to ask questions. They know how to observe the world around

them. They know how to make sense of people experiences.

They know how to connect dots. And yes, AI can help you with

that, but I don't think it can help you if you don't have

domain knowledge and expertise

very well said so in conversations that I've been

having with some of our members recently, I've had a thread that

has come up a lot, and that is the evolution of educational

technologist in the school setting. And so we saw these

people, you know, they were first just helping teachers

understand the basics of technology, supporting them

through that, but we're really starting to see these roles

evolving and people rethinking. What that might look like in

schools. From all of your travels, is this something that

you've had any exposure to, or have you thought about again,

the people that are doing the Technology Support and whatever

it may call innovation specialist or technologists?

What does that look like as we move forward for the next short

term.

Oh my god, I'm deciding how honest I want to

be. I will say this. You know how they say, like, I'll hold

your hand and say this, because it really, truly is in the best

interest of everybody. One of the challenges sometimes, and

this is not a blanket statement, because there's amazing things

happening everywhere. And let me preface this with we're all

doing amazing things, but we are in this crazy moment right now

where we all need to take a step back and reevaluate what we're

doing. And I think if you haven't taken that step back to

reevaluate what you're doing, you're likely a little

misaligned with the moment compared to what it might have

been before for you. So one of the challenges that I think

happens when we choose these roles is they're usually the

person who is amazing at doing it in their space, right? Even I

use my own self as this example, I was amazing at using it in my

classroom. My school selected me to be the ed tech director, and

I went in with, oh my god, this app and this and this and this

and this, and everyone should be just as excited as I am, right?

And those of you who aren't excited, you're the laggards,

like, you're the ones that just like, don't get it yet. You're

not innovative and whatnot. That's very much the mindset in

that space for that thing. And I always talk about wasn't until I

got put at USC, which is the med school where I was director of

innovative learning, but I was a social science teacher in I

hated science. I knew nothing about biology, and I had no

choice but to sit and listen, and that's where this mantra

came for me, that innovation doesn't begin with technology.

Begins with empathy. You've got to, like, understand your

people, and that is a skill set that most people in those roles

are not really trained on. I mean, even most of us, right,

you don't go to school to, like, learn that kind of stuff in a

teaching credential program, even a master's program, even my

doctoral program didn't even go down that path. So these aren't

things that we are taught, per se. They're things we have to,

unfortunately, like, usually learn on our own. And so I think

one of the challenges with those roles is there's not the time

and space to go and do that learning. Sometimes you don't

even realize there are those gaps. But you see everybody else

use this one tool. You see everybody else do this one

thing, and that's what you bring back to your org. And I think

that's how things get spread. This is why these companies want

these ambassadors as teachers, because they know that you're

the one that's going to go into your school. You're the ones

going to go tell everybody, because you're the coach that's

responsible. And now we're going to give you this t shirt and

this like badge, or this whatever, and now you're going

to go spread that to everybody, because your training just

became 10 times easier to do. So. A lot of pressure that's put

on these people to deliver the trainings, to create the

programs, to do all these different things. And so again,

everything for me in this moment is step back, get together, talk

about what you want things to look like, and only then you

will have a criteria to now go to different tools and things to

be like. Does this meet my criteria? Yes, yes. Yes or No,

it doesn't great you're out, and that gives me an informed way of

making decisions about what we want to do in this moment. And I

think a lot of people will find that their decisions don't mean

more technology. They need more hey, we need to create more

experiences for people and for kids to work together, to do

things together, and then technology will play a role in

amplifying that where appropriate. I love

that. Here at ATLIS, we actually have a

strategy that we've done at our staff retreat before, which is

basically laying out like, what are the big projects that we

need to accomplish in the upcoming year? And then it

doesn't matter what your title is, what your role said, but

basically going through and marking like, Okay, who would be

a really good fit with their skill set? And, you know, what

are they passionate about? And, like, what do they bring to the

table? Where does the organization really need you?

And then we kind of go, and we mark a primary and a secondary

on each and then we sit back and look at it and say, Okay, let's

cluster these things. Does this make sense? Is this person too

overworked? And, you know, it's not something that you can do at

a massive scale, and at some point it becomes quite

difficult. But as we think about our tech directors with their

teams, you know, I think that there are some aspects of this

that they can take back and think creatively as they're

moving forward to help support their schools.

Yeah, totally. And I love that you have such a

tangible example of that, because that's one of the

examples that we show with notebook LM for leaders. Like,

if you run these assessment types, you're right. It is hard

to do it at scale, but not for notebook. Lm, you can throw it

all in there, and it will gladly do that work for you all day

long, you know. So I think that's a really great one. You

said something else that was really interesting. Oh, yeah,

the primary and secondary. Like, that's the spark type. Like,

they do your primary strength, your secondary strength. So,

yeah, I think those are amazing places to start. And I don't

know if you saw the latest update with chat GPT, which is

pulse. They only rolled it out to the pro the $200 subscription

model they have. But like, say, for example, you were using chat

GPT to do those projects and manage those projects. Every

morning, it gets up and it tells you what should be on the

agenda. Like, Oh, hey, this is a priority of yours. Have you

considered this or here's a goal to make sure you're checking in

with and so we talk a lot with, you know, you said you listen to

the dance with Patrick, we talk a lot about, I think we worry

too much about thinking and not enough about human agency. And

one of the things that is a priority for the AI companies

with their tools is agency. And I think chat GPT pulse, this

gave everyone a really tangible look at what it looks like when

your AI tool has agency. Because how many co workers are coming

in every day and saying, Yeah, where are we today on this

project? Like, have we moved forward today on this goal? You

know, they always say, right? Like, atomic habits, break it

down, very hard for us to do. But here's your AI tool every

single day, showing up with those check ins taking that

initiative, and that's agency, and I think we really want to

make sure that people at least are on par when it comes to

agency with these AI tools, but definitely not lower than them

in that space.

Well, let's double down on that. So Dan Patrick

actually just wrote an article about you in Forbes, and it was

talking about the keynote that you did for the back to school.

Ai Hiram was able to attend that one. But you were talking about

agency as the new literacy in this article. And I feel like

independent schools in particular have a huge

opportunity here, because independent schools are nimble,

right? This is what they're all about. So do you have any advice

for how these schools can provide agency in a meaningful

way.

Yeah, it looks so different, right, in so many

different things, but I think agency a really part of it is

confidence. And I think confidence comes from knowing

who you are, what you believe and what you value. And I think

the integration of those conversations can happen on

many, many, many different levels, but I think one of the

most exciting things to nurture is that entrepreneurial mindset.

It was one of my favorite examples from design 39 like,

when you say, like, you know, as an independent school, you're

nimble. You know, one of the things that I don't know why

more people don't do is, like, why are you not merging

curriculum? Like, why are we still so siloed, even if you

can't merge your people, these AI tools are so good. Like, you

don't even have to merge people anymore. We can now even co

create these, like gems, GPT, whatever that can start to be

the beginnings of bridging silos until we kind of figure out what

that looks like. But I think more interdisciplinary, more

entrepreneurial mindset being able to have kids create things

like they're already doing this. Kids are doing unbelievable

projects outside of school. Many, many, many of them, and

they don't always make the connection to learning. When

doing those projects, we do a lot of work with kids on

portfolios. A lot of times we'll ask them, like, Okay, tell me

some of the things you're working on. And they'll be like,

Well, I don't really have any projects. And they'll be like,

Okay, it's not until we start saying, Well, tell me what else

you're doing outside of school. Then they start mentioning all

these things. And we're like, you realize, like, those are

projects? Like you're showing these skills and all these

things over here. So I think kids are doing a lot of things.

They're seeing a lot of things. But I think what that

entrepreneurial mindset does is it trains your brain to not just

connect dots, but look for dots. Be the person who can identify

the white spaces, tons of them, tons of them everywhere. But

train your mind to see those things and not just be the

person who sees them, the person who sees them, and is like, I

can do something. I can get these people together. We can

use people in AI. Or maybe I'm just using AI to be able to go

after the connection of these dots that I see for something

I'm passionate about solving. Like just the other day, my

nephew, who's five, he kept losing something, and he was

like, You know what? I'm going to make an app that when I wake

up, it's going to just find the thing that I want to take a

picture, and it's going to find the thing that I lost. And I was

like, You know what's so cool is we can actually take him into

Canva today, right? For free. Anybody can do this, right?

Anybody to take their kid into Canva for you. Let's hit that

out. Tell me what you want that app to do. Tell me a little bit

more about this. That was more technical things involved, but

just that moment of he had an idea, I can open up Canva and

show him a prototype of what that could look like in five

minutes. Is something that we've never had before. Right before

would be like, well, you need to learn how to code, like, put you

in a coding camp, or maybe this, or, yeah, maybe later and

whatnot, or draw a picture what you want to look like, but the

fact that I can make it real is truly, truly, truly remarkable.

I'm just using cans like they could lovable. We could GPT. We

can do so many things. And I think, to me, that's the

opportunity. And when you see those dots connected in that

way, it reinforces that confidence and empowerment. I

have an idea I can do something about it. So I think that

mindset is really important for young people. When it comes to

agents, that's the agency. I see something, and I believe I can

do something about it. I have my voice, I have the skills. I have

people, whatever those things are, and I can do something. I

can act on it, not just think about it and let it whittle away

absolutely so you are so tapped into all of these

different research studies that come out, all the latest

articles, all the things your podcast is absolutely

incredible. We're going to put a link to that in the show notes,

by the way. How do you stay up to date with everything? Do you

have some advice for our listeners on where to go to help

sort through some of this amazing content that's being put

out into the world,

I would say two things, and they're just the

exact same thing, two things that I do. So, number one, we

have this thing called Build a power circle, and you should

have like, a core group of people that you're learning

with. These are people where they're randomly sending you

articles. They're randomly talking to you about a podcast.

It's a bite sized micro learning happening through a text

message, just through a conversation with them. But you

should have a power circle, people who not always, are doing

what you're doing. But for example, in your power circle,

clearly you have these friends that are in these different

industries, that you're having coffee, whatever. They should

not all be from the same place. Otherwise, you're in an echo

chamber. And those people should be the people should be the

people that you're learning from, you're sharing with

whatever. Then my other recommendation is have an outlet

for where you are reflecting. So one of the reasons we do the

podcast, we do two types of podcasts. We do one that's way

more formally edited, and we do another one where me and Stefan

just get him a call, because since day one, he was one of the

people that was like in my power circle. And we were always share

having these conversations. And one day we were just like, why

do we not share these conversations with people? Like,

we have such amazing conversations, let's just share

them, and let's just get on once a week and record. It's not

polished, it's not edited, it's not anything at all. It's just

us getting on and talking about news we read that week. And so

for you, it doesn't have to be a podcast, and it doesn't even

have to be something that maybe you share externally, can even

be something you share internally. But I do think one

knowing how do you learn is really important. It's not

always through writing, and maybe that is for you. So maybe

you do a weekly reflection blog post of what you learned this

week, and one new thing you tried, maybe for you, it's video

and recording or audio. Do that thing. It doesn't even have to

be shared publicly. Do it for yourself. I find that speaking

helps me think out loud, but that's how I learn, and that's

what works for me. For somebody else, it might be something

else. And so those are the two things that I would recommend.

Number one, have a power circle. Number two, have an outlet for

where you are reflecting and documenting that learning.

Because those are the two pieces. What I don't recommend

is having a bunch of newsletters that you just get up and read

every morning and then go about your day. It gives you an

illusion of learning, where you have a lot of knowledge but no

agency then to act on that knowledge and learning so bite

size, whatever that is for you, even if it's a journal, whatever

that outlet is a group of people that you learn from a place

where you output that learning, and I think that is really

helpful.

You made me think back a few years to Google

Reader. That was a wonderful little app where you could

collect all of your headlines and kind of scoop things up in

today's version of Google Reader, where you have the

capacity now to aggregate so much content, use something

like. Notebook. Lm, have you engaged in a conversation with

AI as part of your own reflections?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. One of the things

I'll often do is I'll put articles both through chat GPT

and Gemini. And I find that repeatedly chat GPT gets PDFs

super mixed up, like I find it so unreliable for not data

analysis off of like an Excel or a CSV sheet. But I find that

when you put a PDF article in, I think it's sometimes how the

article is transcribed or written, but sometimes what's

even more weird is, like, if you tell it like, hey, that is not

what I shared, it will like, apologize and then get it right.

I actually learned about that the first time, because I got in

an accident with my Tesla, and I was like, freaking out, somebody

hit me from behind. I had no idea how much data Tesla

collects, like, on your driving, and so they give you a full

report, like, it's a full assessment on your driving. If

somebody was greeting you when you're driving, like every

single second, that's what it has, pages and pages and pages

of graphs and all these things. And it will even tell you, like,

when you break, this is the time between your breaking. This is

how long it took you to get from this to this. And so, like, if

you're not the one at fault, you're amazing, you're covered,

you've got the data you need, God forbid, you're the one at

fault. And like, there was no getting around what it is that

you did. Anyways, I put that into chat GPT, and even though

it wasn't my fault, it just freaked me out, because these

days, people call lawyers before their insurance companies. I

hadn't had an accident 15 years and I was just like, mind

blowing. But I was like, That did not happen 15 years ago. And

so I was just like, these people had the lawyers and this I was

like, going to chat GPT. I was like, Should I be worried about

something like, what's going on? Anyways, chat GPT could not read

that report at all Gemini could, and so it was the first time I

got a real glimpse into like, oh, whoa. Like, be really

careful, like, with things and along those lines. So I think

that's one tool. I think when you do these things, you also

learn things that might not have been on your radar, what works

best for what and things like that. I find if I want to script

something or do something or work through information, chat,

GPT does a much better job. Gemini is like to talk about too

much wordiness and whatnot, but yeah, absolutely like engaging

with these tools, asking questions, being able to put in

multiple things and be like, connect these dots for me,

between all of these different topics and things like that.

That's, I think, really fun to do.

Thank you. And our final question of the day, we

like to ask our guest about their favorite podcast. So not

necessarily one that you're using for professional use,

though you can share that if you really want, but a personal

like, what's your favorite podcast to

listen to? I'll give you two, because they both

balance each other out. Okay, so the first one is like knowledge,

the other one's like mindset. So actually, no, I'm gonna do

three, because I think these three are just like, sorry, I

can't choose one, so my first one would be Diary of a CEO. I

think the way he interviews people, I think it's, like,

unreal today that we can, like, sit in on a two hour, one hour

conversation between people like this that you would otherwise

never, maybe have access to, or ever even meet. So the fact that

you get into their thoughts, into their mind, and like, he's

always bringing on super, like, interesting people that cover a

variety of topics. So I think that is number one. Number two

is, I really like the artificial intelligence show by Paul

routzer and Mike Kip put I think every single week they do a

really good job of summarizing the news. It's very broad. Like

our podcast is very much focused on education leaders. Theirs is

just like, very, very, very broad. But again, if you're

somebody who's like, I really struggle to keep up. I, you

know, don't know where to look, what to do, you could just

listen to these three things and nothing else, and you'd be ahead

of 90% of people. Like, you'd be in the top 5% so dire the CEO

the artificial intelligence show. And the last one is

mindset. And that's Mel Robbins. I think these first two are

knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, but if you don't have the

confidence or agency to act on that knowledge, it's very hard.

And I think Mel Robbins, week after week, gives really

tangible strategies for building your own self awareness and your

confidence that strategies as a change management leader to be

able to do for other people as well. So to me, it's the

intersection of these three that will put you in the top 5%

Dr, sadma, Kip, Bye, everybody. Thank you so

much. It's been wonderful having you. You were great. Oh,

thank you so much. It's nice to chat with you

guys.

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