Friends - those people we collect through life, often taken for granted but can be so important to us. In this episode Clare and Aileen turn their attention to friendships. What are they, how do we make them, what do they bring and where they can go wrong.

So, if you’ve ever felt guilty for neglecting a friendship, been baffled by a falling out or wondered why some friends bring out the best in you and others don’t. This one is for you.

Dip into some of the things Clare and Aileen chat about in this episode:

04:28 Not all friends are the same - but that's a good thing

13:47 Losing friends

23:14 Have your friendships become so routine they need a reset?

28:33 Challenge v giving advice – what’s better for you?

36:45 How to look after friendships

Want to know more?

Visit our website: The Sex and Relationships Podcast for more information on the issues discussed in this episode. You can also Ask Clare a question or suggest a topic for future episodes.

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About the Sex and Relationships Podcast

This podcast is for anyone looking for information or help with their sex lives or relationships. In this season your hosts Clare Prendergast and Aileen Gonsalves deep dive into the world of relationships to give you insights, advice and top tips to help guide you through your relationships.

Your hosts

Clare Prendergast is a sex and relationships therapist and draws on her knowledge and years of experience in the therapy room to give you help and guidance.

Aileen Gonsalves is fascinated in human behaviour and drawing on her many years in the theatre has developed the unique Gonsalves Method which helps people be more present and develop authentic connections with those around them.

Music: Imogen Shortall

Series Producer: Amanda Hancox

Clare 0:03

Hello again, all of you. Welcome back to the Sex and Relationships podcast. As you probably know, I'm Clare, Clare Prendergast, and I'm here with my dear friend Aileen Gonsalves. Hello, Aileen.

Aileen 0:15

Hello, Clare. Nice to be back here.

Clare 0:18

And today we're going to be talking about friendships, the different kinds of friendships that we have, the different roles they play in our lives, and strategies for managing those when they go glitchy, when they go gnarly. I mean, all relationships can be difficult at times and friendships aren't exempt. Are you up for that, Aileen?

Aileen 0:41

Yeah, definitely. Because, you know, friendships really are such an important relationship in my life. I know, you know, these kinds of people that you meet along the way but become absolutely people you totally depend on or people that can lift your spirits, people that you run to when you're upset.

Clare 0:57

So shall we start with kind of defining our terms. What do we mean by friendships? What are friendships? Is it how much time you spend with people? Is it the quantity of time? Is it the quality of the time? You know, where do we find them? You know, what are our friends?

Yeah. Great. Well, I suppose my first for sort of chronologically is always to think of school friends.

My gosh.

Yeah. No, going back that far is when you first meet people, isn't it? When you see tiny little children in primary school and nursery school and think, wow, they're sort of flung into this world where they've been with their families their whole lives up to that point, and now suddenly they have to negotiate this other world of people, and you start making friends. And I mean, I've got, I've got my oldest friend, I think is from when I was 11.

Okay. Okay. So yes, so some of us have managed to retain friendships from childhood and in particular from school. And then in terms of childhood, there might be friendships that come from the children of your parents’ friends?

Yes. Yes.

So people that you were thrown together with because the parents wanted to get together. In my case, you know, there's I think there's one person that has endured through that, but mostly those friends have been lost along the way.

Well, even just saying lost along the way is so interesting because do you grow out of them? Do you, do people change their lives and start, you know, doing different things? Or when they have families or the changes that happen?

Depending how old you are listening to us, isn't it? It's like, you know, if you're in your 20s, they're quite recent. And the other thing is, um, university, some people go on to do further education and pick up some friends in that context. And then after that, it's the workplace, isn't it? That's the place where you may get some new friends.

But also, hobbies, you know, sports, hobbies, things you do outside of work is sometimes a great place for friendships. Places like church, you know, choirs, those kinds of things are places where you might make friends as well.

Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting listening to clients. I mean, there's an overlap with dating, I think in that once you are beyond educational contexts and increasingly folk work for themselves or work from home or have these more sort of peripatetic kind of working lives, meeting people, you know, I think this is why the dating apps have gone insane, because it's just really the only way you can meet people is new people is through dating apps. And so, the same for some people with friends, they go to these meet up groups where there's a shared interest to see if they can make new friends because there's real value in kind of refreshing your friendship group.

Yes, because I suppose as you change as a person, you recognise that you need different people around you. Perhaps, you know, you realise you're you've been drawn to different people. I know my friends who have children are sometimes sort of flung together with their child related friends.

it could be standing at the touchline watching football. It could be outside the school gates doing pick-ups. Yes. Children can create opportunities for meeting new people who are at a similar life stage or going through similar things around parenting.

In the same way as romantic relationships, friendships can be idealised through cinema and television. The show, called Friends and Sex and the city, where we're shown something of what friendship is. And if our relationships don't kind of look like that or match that, it's very easy to kind of negatively compare ourselves.

Yes. And indeed, try to create circumstances so that they do, you know, you try and make them look like that. You know, I had three friends. There were four of us. And, you know, we absolutely, modelling ourselves probably on Sex and the City. You know, we said, "oh, let's meet for brunch each week" or "let's do this". And, and actually that really is a very dangerous road to be on.

Okay.

You're not those people. And it's a television show.

And it's very idealised and very, they have perfect homes and perfect clothes and perfect bodies. And, and it's just a recipe for negative self-talk, isn't it? Comparing yourself negatively.

I think as well, it's quite useful at this in terms of what we're talking about, that there's, there's different friends for different times and different things. Yeah. You know, I've got a relative, a cousin and she always used to talk about her inner circle. She had these kind of circles of where she put people and, and the people in the inner circle knew her most intimate and most details about her, you know, whereas I would talk about close friends and acquaintances and colleagues and, and even within my colleagues circles, there are colleagues that I'm closer to and colleagues that I'm more, I'm less close to. And, you know, friends are, it's a very broad term and covers a whole raft of relationships that are friendly but might not be friends.

I wonder why we want to categorise. I mean, I know I certainly have done that in the past as well. It's interesting hearing you say 'close' that someone is close, which is like a kind of proxemic thing rather than actually a best friend. You know, I always think it's very interesting that that that term best friend. Who's your best friend? I mean, I'm terribly possessive. I expect we'll get on to that. But, you know, in terms of feeling very worried, if suddenly my best friend is talking to somebody else and that's the kind of relationship thing again, you know, that kind of sense of having to have a standard of where you're at with this person, which you want them to meet as well.

Mhm. So, looking at, you know, where it can be a bit difficult is what you're speaking to. I think as well it's useful to think about life stage in terms of friends. You talked about school, you know, primary school, nursery, secondary school. I referenced university, FE. There are times in life when, you know, we're bombarded with choice, there are lots and lots of potential friends. And there are other times when we are just, you know, we talk about the sandwich generation where you are either parenting or you're looking after ageing parents and you're this kind of squeezed in the middle. It's like friends, you know, well, how am I supposed to have time to see my friends? You know, I just there isn't a moment in any day for that. And I think it can be helpful just to be awake to the fact that it's. "Oh, this is just I'm in this life stage and this will pass and there will be more time for friendship. And there has been more time for friendship". But it depends how old you are, really what the relevance of this and the resonance of this subject, I think.

Well, yeah, I suppose, but it is different ages. You absolutely have different experiences of that that. You know, you're describing, I think, my life at the moment with my friends who are because they have children and aging parents are in that sandwich thing and we're fighting to get two minutes with each other. You know, we try to make sure we phone each other, but and then we're even worried about texting. So interesting. Can you text a really good friend and say, are we going to speak, you know, without being needy or without adding to their kind of burden of their lives? So that's really interesting. But to say, reach out to check that they might want to speak to you.

It's interesting when you think about what are friends for? In terms of what is the point of having a friend? Is it somewhere where you can be yourself? I think this is where I find friends so important. And at school I had a big gang of friends. In fact, we were called the gang and I'm sure we were very annoying, but it was a space to be completely myself with these people. I felt very accepted by them and acceptance was a big thing for me. I guess it is like a relationship, you know where you. It's that thing we always talk about, somewhere where you can express yourself freely, not have to change your behaviour. And I think as friends change and grow, in my 20s, that wasn't always the case with friends. You know, I was sort of felt like I was adjusting around people. It's when you're starting, I think, to work out whether you want to be friends with people. But it's that thing of, am I changing my behaviour too much to be with this person? Alternatively, is this person bringing out a side of me that another friend doesn't bring out? I always find it fascinating when you mix friends, or when you have little groups of friends, that one person's perception of your relationship is so different. You know, I'll tell you stories of great fallings out with friends because realising actually, we're quite different. And then how does the rest of the friendship group sort of function?

So I heard you, you were talking about being part of a gang of friends when you were at school and, you know, whereas I was very much, you know, one or maximum two people friend kind of person, I was much more interested in the intensity of close friends and the, the dilution of a group I found really hard to navigate. And I think is kind of through my life, actually, I'm much more comfortable in small numbers. And I think, you know, there isn't a right way to do friendship. There's working out what is your way of doing friendship? And I think your point that we have friends for different purposes, you know, they meet different needs in us. You know, I go to this friend because we really enjoy talking about the theatre. And I go to this friend because we really enjoy talking about sex. And I go to this friend because we really enjoy talking about meditation and spirituality. And it's not that any of the others are less than. It's just that they're meeting different parts of me and giving me different containers to enjoy and celebrate the different things that I like and that I do. But yes, when you create a context where these different friends are put in a room together, it can be tricky. I'm always very impressed by people who do that with a lightness and an ease. Just happy to kind of bring all their different lives into one space and let them all just blend and gel or not.

Well, I mean, I love to pull them all together for picnics or for birthdays, but the control freak levels are off the scale for me because I want them all to get on. I love the idea you say you let them gel or you allow them to knock.... That's insane to me. You know, I'm so controlling about wanting everyone to actually be the same in so, so many of my problems are not allowing the differences in, in even as you say, you have friends for different needs. I was categorising, I think actually putting people in that hierarchy of who I could be entirely myself with or, you know, it's like that we say that about relationships, isn't it? They can't be the be all and end all of your life. We need different people. But actually, going through the years of my life, I really see I've only learnt that more recently and spent a lot of time being frustrated when a friend didn't actually fulfil all the requirements, or I would second guess them and go, well, they're not the best friend then are they? And somehow, they're in a criteria below that. You know, in my head, I think the intimate relationships at the top, then you have the best friend underneath and then you have other friends, you know, accordingly. So, I probably do what your friend said about her inner circle. I probably do a similar thing. I hopefully don't do that anymore, but that's certainly something that has been with me in my life.

Sort of hierarchical, isn't it? It's rather than looking at relationships on a sort of level playing field where everyone plays a part. Yes, that lovely expression, if it takes a village to raise a child. You know, I think if we can subscribe to that, it just releases so much of the pressure because it's of course, I can't be everything my child needs. But in my village, in my community, it's like they can bring that and they can bring that and they can bring that. And between us, you know, our child or children can have a really rich, resourced start in life. And I think the same is true for us in our relationships. When we see them more broadly, we see them on a level playing field rather than a hierarchical playing field. The richness on offer is easier to tap into.

We've kind of moved into talking about what can go wrong, haven't we? In friendships and, you know, I've got a friend who's very good or believes in consciously terminating friendships. You know, I've known her for many, many, many years. And there's been several people along the way that she's kind of had an ending conversation with, you know, this friendship has been lovely, and it's delivered X, Y, and Z and A, B and C, but now it's served its time and now it's over, it's ended. Which for me is, is so shocking because, you know, when I think of my friendship circle, you know, there's people I might not see for years, but they're still my friends. You know, our lives have taken us sometimes to different parts of the world, sometimes different parts of the country. But as soon as we're back in the same space, it's like I saw them yesterday. It's not saying that my mind won't kind of get in there sometimes and ask me, oh, is that friendship ended? Is that over? But if I can manage to just kind of go, well, no, we're just not we're just not in each other's orbit right now. Then often I'll come back into their orbit, and it will be like we saw each other yesterday and its chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. And it's, it's just lovely.

Yes. Because what's lovely about those kind of old friends or people who've known you for a long time, there's sort of an understanding that they like you. You know, you kind of think I'm safe in this environment. This person at least likes me. So actually, it's really quite fun then because they can challenge you. It's almost like when you see someone and you notice that they've lost weight or put on weight because you haven't seen them for a while. It's a similar thing. They see you in a slightly different way than your everyday kind of mirror that's reflecting back and the everyday friendships, which are wonderful. But it's great when someone comes from left field who you haven't seen for a while and it brings up maybe old parts of yourself that you've squashed or old bits of yourself that you haven't been expressing for a while suddenly get to re-emerge which is really fun, actually.

But this idea of terminating friendships in such a clinical way is fascinating. I suppose it means that you have a sense of your own self-growth. The people that you might need around you at different times. I mean, I've certainly had experiences where I broke up with a friend and I consciously did it. I didn't it was unexpected. It was over for brunch. There were three of us having brunch, and I literally at the brunch, consciously broke up with one of them, and the other one sat there and went, "uh. I'm not sure quite what to do right now. I can see this is really happening". And I remember distinctly saying, "look, this is happening. You keep eating, read this paper, we're doing this. And whatever happens between us, your relationship does not have to change". Because, you know, I felt very conscious of that. But, you know, after that brunch and this is a friend of a good 20 years at this point, we didn't speak at all for a good now, I think it's about ten years. But in the last year we have reconnected very thankfully. I'm very pleased I reached out to them and, um, apologized actually, um, because of where I was at at that time, it felt the right thing to do and hoped that they could at least be willing to speak again. And they were very open to that. And actually, we reconnected and the three of us, those same three, in fact, the reason why we did it is because a fourth friend, this is our Sex and the City gang really, um, was having some medical trouble and it made us reappraise immediately in that moment. And I just thought, "whoa, let's just get together right now". And what was great is we did, everyone stepped up to that. And it's been lovely reconnecting with each other. But as now our new selves, really, we've had ten years of growth and change and children and all sorts has happened, and I was surprised that it has been so wonderful to reconnect.

Goodness. Goodness. Gosh. So yes, and I guess that probably speaks to why I resist the formal ending of a relationship, because I think I'm so aware of how things change, how much I change, you know, as new information comes in, as new learning comes in, as new life experiences come in. You know, I've just been so awake to how much I've changed in the course of my life. And, and I think that's one of the things that can maybe go wrong in friendships is when we're watching people, we care about change. It can be, it can be difficult, but we've always we've always liked this. And now you're saying you don't like it or, you know, if you've got friendships that centre around drinking and then one of you doesn't drink; it's, you know, it's not been problematic for me because I'm not really, I don't really know many big drinkers, but from clients I've listened to it, you know, it can be it's like, it's like you're letting the side down by changing something that's been a possibly unspoken sort of shared pleasure and one of you stops doing it.

Yes. I mean, you're talking about a shared pleasure, but shared values, you know, shared sense of doing things that can be, you know, really quite strange. You know, when people have children, I talk about that because I noticed that with my friends. That's a real moment where you thought, "oh, have I lost you now?" And of course, technically you have because they're so busy, they're not sleeping. They can’t think straight. And we had to navigate that very mindfully, actually, with various friends of mine just to say, okay, they haven't disappeared, but they do need support. I remember a really close friend of mine going, "actually, I really need support. I need you to come over and just help." And that was interesting. "Just clean the house" and I was like, "ah, okay, wait a minute. So, this is just different. Actually, something is different here." I mean, the other big thing is when someone chooses a partner that you don't approve of. Oh my gosh, that's incredibly hard. You know, when you suddenly that partner doesn't approve of you even, or that there's a split that happens there, that can be extremely painful because how do you navigate that?

Um, and I think some people, when they move from being single to being part of a couple, they can but not always, but they can become one of those couples that always do everything together. So as a friend of one of them, yes, I think that can be really painful. It's like you have lost your friend. Your friend is now always part of this pair. And it's, "hang on a minute. What about us?" And yes, I think for some friendships, they don't manage to come through that there's, there's a. And if you're listening and you're, you are aware of that in yourself, that actually you've become one of those couples that only ever do things as a couple. You know, it's like, what is that like for your friends? It's hard.

And it's lovely to hear you, um, you know, as a woman who didn't go down the path of having children, that your openness to being the friend who comes around and helps with the cleaning or comes around and holds the baby. Because I think for some folk, you know, we have two words. There's childlessness, but then there's also child free. And I think if you're a woman whose child free, it's much easier to be that friend. Whereas if you're a woman who's yearned to be a mum, but and for whatever reason it hasn't worked out for you, it can be acutely painful if your friend is expecting you to just come and hold the baby or wash the nappies. And it's kind of like, "have you no sense of how traumatic this is for me. You know, you're living a life that I yearn for." And I think that can be a really difficult time for friendships. When one of you is moving into being a mum or a parent and the other one isn't. How do you navigate that? How do you find space for both of your difficulties to be valued in the friendship?

I think that's an interesting thing you've come into now, which is the idea of one friend needing you more than another. You know that kind of balancing act of listening. Listening to friends, you know, you might everyone listening might have had this experience of always being the friend who's listening to someone else's troubles, and you leave them going, "God, they didn't ask one thing about me, or I didn't say anything about my story. You know, today. Have they even noticed me?" You know, and that can be strange. And I don't know what you think about that. I mean, I've often been that person. You know, I've often talked about being a people pleaser in the past. And so, I would always take the role of listener. I felt, you know, I was always sort of hearing somebody's tribulations. Um, but trying to balance that. I have a really good friend who we've learned to really make sure we balance those conversations. And it does feel really great actually, because they can download for ages, but I'll always know at some point they go, and how are you doing and what's going on with you? And you know, and they reflect back and we actually try and you can really, really get so much from a friendship where you really say to them, I need this support today you know.

And I think that overlaps with intimate relationships. We can get into patterns with our friends where those dynamics are so routine, they've become invisible. You know, one of you does do all the talking, all the downloading, all the, you know, "my life is so...." And the other one does all the listening. And it's making that visible in the friendship. Finding a way to talk about it in the friendship. And looking at, you know, do we want to rebalance this? But I think with new friends, I think sometimes it's very tempting just to walk away and just go, "oh, they didn't ask a thing about me. They're just so self, self, self, self, I can't be bothered." And we walk away and yeah, I mean new friendships, but I think also longer-term friendships, it's checking in. Have I got the willingness to have the difficult conversations, you know, am I, is there enough about this person that actually, I do want to build a deeper friendship, and I do want to risk saying, this isn't actually two way. And what can we do to help it be two way? And you and I on this podcast, I mean, we're just obviously both gabblers, aren't we? We like a good chat and we're chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. But there are folk who are much more interior, much more internal, much quieter. And I think they can risk being talked at a lot. And the talkers amongst us, well, me, this is a note to me, you know, to really make a point of saying, "and how are you and what is what's happening in your life and how was your weekend", etc..

I mean, my friends listening to this will be going, oh my God, what do you mean you don't stop talking? (Laughter)

Something interesting actually just occurred to me was a very painful episode with a friend in the past where we did have to have that very honest conversation, and it was an area of giving advice. I felt I had the right to give them advice. They were going out with someone who I didn't think was good for them, and there was a very fine line of when do you intervene in friendships? You know, is it when you see actual harm being played out or is it just that your judgement of this person isn't that you don't quite like them. And why are they going out with them? And you…… It's advice giving, I think, is….. I remember someone saying to me advice. The word is adding vice. So, I've stopped doing it. Actually, it's been quite helpful to hear that thinking, "oh gosh. That's probably true." Because I think I was also an advice giver in my past. Very much so. And people would come to me and then I'd feel very valued. I'd feel very useful. I'd feel. My role in the friendship in whole of life was to be this very wise advice giver.

But actually, it's a very dangerous road to be down. And I know one friend challenged me and they said "Yeah, I don't I don't need you to tell me this. I don't want you to tell me this, I want to be going out with this person, even if they're bad for me." Which is in fact what they then did. But then they found their way to break up with that person, and they did that. But that was extremely scary time with that friend. And we looked at each other in a cafe, always remembering Costa Cafe in Clapham Junction. We often talk about it going, "is this, are we going to break up here? Is this the end of this very long, deep friendship?" And we said, "should we? Should we try and actually just be more honest?" Because this was what the issue was. We weren't being honest with each other enough because she wasn't pushing back enough and I wasn't shutting up enough, you know? So, we had a kind of honest conversation. And I have to say, it was every so often, even now, we go, "is it time to have an honest conversation? Actually, is something wrong here?"

Yeah, I think I mean, I think that that experience, it just really points to how, how important negotiation is in our friendships. I mean, I think there's lots of books out there now. I mean, Brené Brown is great on this that actually, I love that, I've never heard that advice is adding vice. But actually, telling people what to do. You know, if they ask you, you know, "I don't know what to do. What do you think? Shall I this or shall I that?" That's completely fine. Your opinion has been solicited. Absolutely share it. But outside of that, within a friendship, what is so much more valuable is the being alongside. The friend is the person who will sit with you even when life sucks, even when things are really shitty, even when things are really hard. You know, "I'm here. I'm, you know, whatever is helpful, I'm here to give you whatever you need." And your friend with the small child, it was it was cleaning. It's interesting. I think about this. I've had a tricky situation with a client in the last couple of weeks where, they're used to therapists being people who pass tissues and nod and say "there, there" and one-to-one therapy can look like that. But when you come and do couple work, it's a much more dynamic and much more, because there's three people in the room. And my role is to make sure it's safe for both of my clients. And so, when I challenge, it can be really shocking to people. It's like, but that's not what you're not meant to do that.

And I think with our friends, it's different to advice giving, but a friendship that is resilient enough to have challenge be in the mix. So, for example, you know, "my partner......." And we, you know, phone a friend and the friend goes "oh, what a terrible person, you know, what a bastard. What a...." you know, someone who just agrees with us. You know, there is a place for that. And there will be times when I'll want to phone that friend. But there's also times when life is tricky, and we're having to do some deeper discernment around what to do in a given situation. Having those friends who are brave enough to challenge us, are brave enough to say, "actually, I don't think that's so bad." Or "actually, I think that was quite a reasonable behaviour that you're ranting about." Or "what did you say you did? You did what?" And, getting the person to sort of repeat themselves in the hope that they might notice, "oh God, that actually wasn't okay that I did that was it?" It's like it takes our friendships into a much deeper place, a much more profound place when we are, the friendship is resilient enough to manage challenge, which is different to advice. We're not telling them what to do, but we're questioning what they're doing. Yeah. In a, in a loving way to hopefully help them see what they're doing and make their own choices around what to do about it.

Yeah, that's the key thing, isn't it? Allowing, respecting people enough, allowing them to make their own choices. Yeah. I have a very good friend who we've gone through definitely the advice stage. This is someone I knew from college a long, long time to now. We've both grown into a place where, you know, we'll phone each other up and we'll sort of really clearly say what we want help with. "I need you to listen to this. I need you to check that I'm not going mad. I need you to just check that I am being fair in this discussion." You know, it's those kinds of questions. And then you sort of say your spiel and the person listening kind of reflects back word for word what you just said. So, they said, "I think what I think I heard you say is X, Y, Z" and you check, is that right? And you go, "well, yeah, you've got a B, the A, B bit." "Oh, right. So, it's X, Y, Z, A,B" again, repeat. And then they say, "I just want to reflect what that made me feel listening to you. What I feel listening to you is X, Y,Z."

And that's interesting because they're not giving advice at all. But you hear that whenever I hear that, I go, "oh yeah, no, I'm not quite, you're right. You're feeling suspicious or you're feeling a bit unnerved by what I just said. I think you're probably right." Because it allows you to see and hear yourself back in a really productive way, actually. And it has deepened our friendship because it means we absolutely call each other up when we're in trouble knowing, especially when we've done something wrong. Oh my gosh, I love calling when I feel I've made a mistake. Oh, when you can call a friend when you've made a mistake. There's someone on the end of the line to say not to immediately "go, oh no, you're fine. It's okay." No, no. But to go, "okay, let's hear it. Let's hear what happened." And of course, in the end, they end the call by saying "you are okay, and I love you and it's not the end of the world." And they do give you those brilliant sorts of supportive phrases, but you've already now worked through some solutions together. It's a really powerful thing to do.

Yes. Gosh, because you're already in this, your own pit of shame, because you've made a mistake and you've done something you regret. And then this friend is someone who isn't going to kind of dig into that shame. They're going to hear it. They're going to hear your "I can't believe I did this." And then they're going to hold a space while you look for solutions and strategies for what to do to whether it's make amends, whether it's put the situation right, whether it's forgive yourself for making the mistake. It's I mean, this is, you know, you're describing quite a lot of my day job. You know that's another thing. If you haven't got a friend who can give you what your friend gives you, you know, you can go and talk to a professional. But you know, it's don't sit in that shame pit because it's pants. And really, I think it's, it's yes, as you look kind of assess your friendship circle. It's like, oh, gosh, actually, yes, that person does quite enjoy it when I'm in a shame flood. So maybe I'm going to steer clear of that person and, and that person really doesn't. And they're really good at helping me come through and move out of that shame place because, oh, it's just horrible shame.

Yeah. Shame is the interesting thing around friends because then I have some friends have that schadenfreude thing. I'm terrified that they are triumphant at my downfall. That's an eye opener when you realise perhaps, they're not perhaps the friend I need in my life even. If you think that actually someone is triumphant at your downfall. Yet you can have another friend that will say, "yes, that was a bad mistake you've just made there, Aileen. Why the hell did you do that?" You know, and really challenge you or go, gosh, um, but you know, that person is absolutely going to be by your side working this thing out with you. And whatever happens, absolutely loves you despite the mistake. That's the feeling I said earlier of that acceptance by a person. That's why I think friendships are so valuable and so important. They're these people who you can be ashamed with, actually, or you can be sad with. You can be broken hearted. You know, when you break up with people, who do you go and see? Who do you kind of end up on their floor in a little curled up ball.

I mean, I have friends where their children now recognise that Aileen's come over and needs roast chicken and needs cheering up because she's broken up with someone or is a bit heartbroken. And I know when my mum died it was interesting. I resisted going back to see my best friend who knew mum from school and was the first person I phoned. But I sort of found myself not, she obviously kept saying do come over if you want. She was out of town, and she has a family and I'm thinking, oh no, she's so busy, so busy. But actually, one day I just found myself in completely the wrong place with the wrong person. And I just phoned and said, "I'm getting on a train now." I was the best thing I did. It was such an interesting thing to just go and collapse with her. And in those moments when you really need to drop all your armour and be as vulnerable as anything. The safety of a friend like that who just feeds you actually, and sort of ignores you really.

It's interesting. You're describing two really different things. You know, the I'm putting it in quotes here, 'the friend' who's triumphant at your downfall, you know, very definitely is not a friend. That is not a friend. There's somebody in your life. They possibly are serving a purpose. You know, maybe it's professional. Maybe it's, you know, there there’s a link in a chain of different things that happen in your life. But that's, you know, I would be very reluctant to, to categorise them as a friend. But the friend who is, it's interesting, I mean, it sounds to me like you weren't ready to collapse into your grief before you were ready. And going to see her too soon in the aftermath of your mum, because your mum's death was very sudden, wasn't it? Was it an unexpected?

Totally Unexpected. Speaking to her at 10:00, and by midnight she'd gone.

I mean, you know, and was fit and healthy up until...?

Nowhere, out of nowhere.

So, I think a loss like that, there is a period of time to, to just kind of let it in. And you talk about your armour. You know your armour. Your defences, whatever it is. But, you know, just getting on with your life. Same old, same old. Because this shock. I mean, this massive left field shock. You know, it takes a while for your system to to let that in and to arrive and having her, you know, just there. I mean, what a wonderful, wonderful resource to have a woman like that in your life. Aileen.

No, I do know that. My gosh.

Gosh.

Love is underneath it. You feel the love of them. You know they love you. And I think that's something we don't talk about love. We forget to. But love is this hugely holding thing that is a thing we don't understand. But essentially, when you feel loved by someone and you love someone, friendships become very valuable, I think. There's this thing they say about the greatest form of love is listening to someone.

Yeah, and I'm just thinking culturally how much we recognise the role of love in friendship. And I'm thinking, you know, we're talking about those very deep friendships at this moment. But I think love plays a part in more. I'm thinking about a group of friends I have. Relationships with the individuals in the group and relationships with the group. And it's not a baring your heart kind of space. It's deeply respectful. It's honouring. There are some very eccentric and quirky personalities within the group, but the container is one of love. And also, the beauty of friendships that are held over time is there's also that shared history that shared knowing of, oh, gosh, you went through that 25 years ago or you went through that 10 years ago, or you're going through that now. And, and whilst it isn't, you know, let's just get our hearts out and be warts and all. It isn't that kind of container, but it is. There's Conviviality. There's companionship, there's company and shared stories. And I think culturally they can that can be undervalued.

For friendships, old friends and new friends, they as we go through life, you know, they require time. And the time is time where I have capacity to give the person my attention, to be curious about them, to be interested in them. And if we're very, very busy, it's like it doesn't need to be large amounts of time, but it is bringing an awareness to a time in my week that is about me cultivating my friendships and deliberately using that word 'cultivating'. They need our attention. They need to be looked at and valued and cultivated and they can grow and become such a restoring, nourishing, rich part of our lives. Yeah, they can be cornerstones. And they're not. If we're in a relationship with a significant other, we're married or we're, you know, we're partnered. It doesn't devalue that primary relationship. It's like, it's recognising I can have my significant other and my that relationship will be deepened and strengthened by me cultivating and nourishing these other relationships outside. You know, when we're time poor, it can be really easy to miss that and to forget that.

Yes. And cultivating yourself by doing that, of course, because you're growing, because you're spending time with different people who bring out different parts of yourself. You know, this friend brings out your fun side. This friend brings out your curious side, this one your intellectual side, you know, so actually, you keep evolving and growing the more time you cultivate that and give quality time and moments to those experiences. It's always very reassuring to me when I put something in the diary that we can all look forward to. We've carved out that time and we know we're going to honour. It is a very good feeling, actually, with friends.

So, I think we're done for today. Talking about friendships. Thank you so much, Aileen, for making the time to chat to me today. So, if you'd like to see more of the conversations that Aileen and I have had, or in the previous series chats I had with Janet, please go to the sexandrelationshipspodcast.com website. And if you'd like us to talk about a particular subject, do click on the help button and drop us an email. And thank you very much for being with us today and listening to us chatting. Okay, so bye for now.

Bye.