In this episode we delve much deeper into The Quest for Legitimacy and explore the four phases. 

In particular we look at examples from the research that highlight how the phases feel and are experienced. We discuss the fact that the phases are not linear and that at any point in your life you can be taken back into an awareness phase that can lead to opportunities for growth. 

The four phases of The Quest are: 

1. Awareness 
2. Tug of War 
3. Exploration 
4. Ownership

The Quest for Legitimacy: How Children of Prominent Families Discover Their Unique Place in the World is available to buy on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. It will also be available in book stores. 

You can follow these links to order the book: 

Amazon USA 

Amazon UK 

Barnes and Noble 

If you would like to speak to us about a bulk order for your family, your clients or team members please email us:

hello@questforlegitimacy.com  

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Russ Haworth: 00:01:01

episode of the family business podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:04

We are continuing our look in this series at the quest for legitimacy,

Russ Haworth: 00:01:09

which is a research project that I was invited to be involved in

Russ Haworth: 00:01:14

by my friend and colleague, Dr.

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Jamie Weiner.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:18

Jamie has written a fantastic book.

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That captures through the stories that we heard from those that

Russ Haworth: 00:01:25

we spoke to during the project.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:27

Uh, the experience of growing up around significance and in a prominent family.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:32

So if that resonates with you, I highly recommend that you buy

Russ Haworth: 00:01:36

the book and have a read through.

Russ Haworth: 00:01:39

It is a fantastic book.

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For the whole of this series, all of these episodes is

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going to be held under one page on the podcast website to make

Russ Haworth: 00:01:47

everything really easy to find.

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. So that's fam biz podcast.com

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But also to let you know that the quest for legitimacy has a stand alone website

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and that is quest for legitimacy.com.

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So there's a lot more over there on the research has a lot more there on, uh,

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how to buy the book and links to do so.

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And we will also be populating that with blogs and articles from

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various publications that are very interested in this project.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:21

And also there's details there on how to get in touch with us.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:24

If what we speak about resonates and you're looking for help or

Russ Haworth: 00:02:26

support in your own right there.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:28

So.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:29

Uh, do head over to quest for legitimacy.com.

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There is a separate newsletter that you can sign up to there.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:36

So if you join the mailing list, we'll keep you informed of any future, um,

Russ Haworth: 00:02:41

articles or updates on the research.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:44

So, as I say, in this episode, we continue to look at more of the

Russ Haworth: 00:02:47

detail around the research itself.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:49

So Jamie runs us through.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:51

The four phases of the quest.

Russ Haworth: 00:02:54

What that means for those who are experiencing this

Russ Haworth: 00:02:58

. And we also share some stories

Russ Haworth: 00:03:01

bring this all to life as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:03

Um, really enjoyable interview with Jamie.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:05

There's a great story in there about his own childhood.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:08

Um, the I'm sure.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:10

Uh, we'll raise a smile.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:11

I'll hand over to that interview now.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:14

I hope you enjoy it.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:16

And please share with anybody that you feel this would be relevant

Russ Haworth: 00:03:19

for other in your professional life, or if this resonates with

Russ Haworth: 00:03:23

family members and please do share.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:25

Um, as we're very keen for as many people to know about this as possible.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:30

Right.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:30

I'll hand over to the interview with jamie Well, hello everybody.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:34

And welcome to the next episode of the quest for legitimacy, uh, special

Russ Haworth: 00:03:40

series of the family business podcast.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:43

I'm joined once again by my friend and colleague, uh, Dr.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:47

Jamie Wener Jamie, welcome to the show.

Jamie Weiner: 00:03:50

good to be here again.

Russ Haworth: 00:03:52

And we are going to delve a little bit deeper into the

Russ Haworth: 00:03:58

research and, and the book that you have written, which, um, Again, we will

Russ Haworth: 00:04:04

link this up all in the, the show notes.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:07

Before we go into the detail of the phase of the quest for those that,

Russ Haworth: 00:04:12

um, might need a, a reminder of what those four phases of the quest are.

Russ Haworth: 00:04:16

Could you just give us, uh, a quick run through of, um, what they

Russ Haworth: 00:04:21

are, and then we can delve into the, the detail a little bit more.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:24

Yeah.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:25

So the first phase is the phase of awareness.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:29

It's usually connected to some connection that tells us that we're,

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:37

there's something unique or, or different about our experience.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:43

Um, and we'll go back and certainly talk more about that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:48

The second phase is, you know, we grow up, we're very influenced by the

Jamie Weiner: 00:04:54

institutions and the environment that we grow up in, but we begin to get

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:00

exposure to the outside world and, you know, we start to bring stuff back.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:07

And at first it's cute.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:10

Later on.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:11

It may not be so cute, but we live internally in a world that I call

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:16

the tug of war between the world that we were brought up in and

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:20

the world we're being exposed to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:24

and a, again, these phases are not linear, so we can get pulled back

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:29

into this at any point in our life.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:32

We can get that pulled back into awareness.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:35

The third phase and it's a significant phase.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:40

Um, and in the book, there's a whole chapter on it is the phase of exploration.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:45

It's really the phase where, you know, family is more

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:49

internal than anything else.

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:52

And we, where we begin to be exposed to the external world, that we start

Jamie Weiner: 00:05:57

to do this sorting to define between the different things we found.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:04

Who we are in, in our exploration of ourselves.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:10

If we do that relatively successfully, it's a struggle.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:14

This is not like some magic that happens.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:18

It leads to a point in our lives where we take ownership of our lives.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:24

And, um, we may take ownership of parts and come back and

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:28

take ownership of other parts.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:31

, but it is the point where we truly become, ourselves and, and powerful in our own.

Jamie Weiner: 00:06:38

Right.

Russ Haworth: 00:06:39

Fantastic.

Russ Haworth: 00:06:40

. And the, the, so the purpose of what we're discussing today is to twofold,

Russ Haworth: 00:06:47

I guess firstly is, and I think this is really important across the,

Russ Haworth: 00:06:52

the entire series of, of what we're recording here is a lot of what we

Russ Haworth: 00:06:56

talk about will resonate with people.

Russ Haworth: 00:06:58

And I think that can come with some levels of reassurance that I'm not alone in.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:03

this is not the, the circumstances with which I've grown up with may

Russ Haworth: 00:07:07

be unique, but the challenges and the experience I'm having might be,

Russ Haworth: 00:07:13

um, more common than, than I think.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:16

And part of that for me is, is us explaining and helping

Russ Haworth: 00:07:22

to people to understand what perhaps an a awareness phase.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:27

Would look like or would feel like to people.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:29

And we've got some stories we can share from, from, um, some of the people that

Russ Haworth: 00:07:33

we spoke with, but C can you capture it in terms of what it might feel and,

Russ Haworth: 00:07:38

and look like for people who will be hearing this it be resonating going okay.

Russ Haworth: 00:07:44

Less delve, a bit deeper on this.

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:46

So I I'm glad that you mentioned this, the sense of being

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:50

alone, because I, I truly believe that if in understanding these four phases,

Jamie Weiner: 00:07:57

People, um, walk away and begin to realize that somebody's sitting over

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:03

here feeling alone and down the street.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:06

Somebody else's feeling alone, even though the experiences may be very similar.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:11

and in fact, on college campuses, there's an epidemic of loneliness.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:18

and so the awareness phase can be all kinds of different things.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:24

We, we interviewed somebody who grew up in a park that had a zoo and it didn't

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:31

take that person along to realize.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:33

Hmm.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:34

There's something different about my experience than the other people.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:38

I know.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:40

it's, it's a little bit different for, for everybody.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:45

Um, you know, I mentioned in the first episode, the person who learned

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:49

how to count by counting diamonds, cuz she came from a diamond family.

Jamie Weiner: 00:08:54

Um, but even the person we interviewed in a, a small community at some

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:02

point in awareness that everybody paid, paid attention to it.

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:07

I know for me as a rabbis kid growing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:11

Kids would people would come up to me and rub my hair and say, you

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:16

know, I, I knew you when, you know, you were knee high to a grasshopper.

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:21

I didn't know where the expression came from, but it was some awareness

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:25

that there was something, um, unique about the world that I was growing up.

Jamie Weiner: 00:09:31

And.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:32

Mm, there there's a, a lovely story as well that you share

Russ Haworth: 00:09:36

in, in the book around the, um, the time that the kid asked their parent.

Russ Haworth: 00:09:42

Um, about your, about your dad and, uh, I won't ruin the phrase,

Russ Haworth: 00:09:47

but C can you tell that story?

Russ Haworth: 00:09:49

I think it, it really captures kind of the essence of, of what we're talking

Russ Haworth: 00:09:53

about and that there's an innocence to it, but it's also very impactful

Russ Haworth: 00:09:57

in terms of, of what we're saying.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:00

So rabbi's kid I'm in a synagogue and then in Jewish

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:06

community, synagogues are very simple.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:08

There's a, um, a arc where the, the scrolls of the Bible are kept.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:16

The way the synagogue was sent up.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:18

My father had to enter from behind the arc was at a family service.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:24

There, there was a lot of kids and my father comes out and, and a

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:29

robe and white scarf called a Tali.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:35

And all of a sudden from, from the audience, a kid turns to his mother

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:40

and says, mom, mom is that God.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:48

you imagine what I felt like?

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:50

Who was I ever gonna be?

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:51

If that was God, I wanted to crawl out of there and I, I get it.

Jamie Weiner: 00:10:58

, it wasn't logical question for him to ask.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:02

Probably never been at a synagogue, probably never saw a rabbi.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:06

A lot of people have never seen a clergy person until a certain age.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:12

and, um, I knew there was something different about my

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:16

life and that moment going on.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:19

And I guess as well, it also highlights the, the, what

Russ Haworth: 00:11:23

we spoke about in the first episode around prominence is, is your father's

Russ Haworth: 00:11:28

prominence in that situation as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:31

And the impact that had on you.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:33

And I can't remember how old you were when, when that experience happened,

Russ Haworth: 00:11:37

but, but you were young, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:11:38

It wasn't, um, you weren't in adulthood.

Russ Haworth: 00:11:41

It was, it was during your, um, childhood as.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:45

So I think me, everybody we interviewed, we all spend part

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:51

of our lives just being kids.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:54

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:11:56

Um, I wasn't good in sports, so I wasn't picked, but you know, all

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:01

other people are good in sports.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:02

So they're, they're picked to be on the team.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:04

First.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:05

We do well in school and then almost, um, out of the blue, we have sudden

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:13

moments where something happens that reminds us, um, about the uniqueness of

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:20

our upbringing And all the stories I've talked about before are examples of that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:29

Henry Kaiser at one point, realized that every, he was paying a lot of attention,

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:34

that he was being gonna be expected to be sent off to boarding school.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:39

And there was some understanding that at some point in his.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:45

He had to be prepared for something special to happen to him.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:49

And I don't believe this happens, cuz parents say, oh my God, when

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:53

you grow up, you gotta, you know, you need, you need to do big things.

Jamie Weiner: 00:12:58

I think even when they say don't worry about it, whatever you wanna do, you

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:03

go in your head, you're going back.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:04

Sure.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:06

I was, I was pointing the land of giants.

Jamie Weiner: 00:13:08

I've gotta measure.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:09

Oh, yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:10

And I think that's that the essence of.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:14

You cover so brilliantly in the book, is there are these, these four phases?

Russ Haworth: 00:13:19

Um, it it's, we term it as an internal quest for legitimacy, rather than

Russ Haworth: 00:13:25

say an external quest for the kind of badges and certificates that,

Russ Haworth: 00:13:30

that we might, um, strive for.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:32

And, and again, we're gonna cover that in, in much more detail in,

Russ Haworth: 00:13:36

in future episodes, be mindful of.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:41

The fact that awareness can feel and look different for each individual,

Russ Haworth: 00:13:47

for each person, depending on, um, their circumstances, what they

Russ Haworth: 00:13:52

consider to be the prominence.

Russ Haworth: 00:13:53

Is it the achievements?

Russ Haworth: 00:13:54

Is it physical legacies?

Russ Haworth: 00:13:56

Is it wealth?

Russ Haworth: 00:13:57

Is it a, just the fact that there's a successful family enterprise and

Russ Haworth: 00:14:00

the pressure of growing up, um, in, in that environment, we also need

Russ Haworth: 00:14:06

to recognize that that means that.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:09

Subsequent phases that we've identified within the quest may look and feel

Russ Haworth: 00:14:13

different for, for people, but there is a commonality in terms of that experience.

Russ Haworth: 00:14:18

And the next stage is the, the tug of war that, that we've we mentioned

Russ Haworth: 00:14:24

briefly outset again, can you give us a bit more in terms of the detail around

Russ Haworth: 00:14:30

what, what we mean by tug of war and, and what it might look and feel like

Russ Haworth: 00:14:33

for people who either have experienced it or, or will experience it going.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:38

There are probably lots of examples.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:40

The one that's kind of sticking out in my mind is, um, of somebody who

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:48

grew up in a family that was forced to immigrate that built a huge business.

Jamie Weiner: 00:14:55

Where, the task of the film family, center more around math and science and was not

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:03

her interest was not in the realization for her that she, she wanted to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:15

But didn't fit because of her exposure to the outside world and, and what she

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:20

was beginning to see about herself as she grew up probably started pretty early.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:27

She, um, when we talked to her, she was amazing because she stopped us at

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:33

one point and said that over time she realized it was all about achievements.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:39

And that that tug of war, um, made her question.

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:47

How is she, how is she gonna be enough?

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:50

How is she gonna find something, given all the gifts that she'd been given to live

Jamie Weiner: 00:15:56

up to, what she believed she needed to do?

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:00

Um, and in a very loving way with her family, she had a very supportive family.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:06

, That's a pretty dramatic example.

Jamie Weiner: 00:16:07

I think we really heard lots of examples of the tug of war.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:12

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:12

And, um, I think, again, it's, it's kind of that balance between the, the world.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:20

We've grown up within, and then the exposure to influences from

Russ Haworth: 00:16:26

outside of that and kind of going, do I go over here and, and.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:31

Kind of delve into, to this new, exciting world that's new to, to the family,

Russ Haworth: 00:16:37

the, the presence of the, um, prominence and, and the, the family around you.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:43

Um, I, in the world you're growing up in and how.

Russ Haworth: 00:16:48

How can the two match?

Russ Haworth: 00:16:49

How, how can I honor?

Russ Haworth: 00:16:51

What I I'm, perhaps some of the expectations are of around me internally

Russ Haworth: 00:16:57

as well for me, how, how do I measure up to the achievements of those that

Russ Haworth: 00:17:00

have gone before me, whilst also going out and, and delving into this world?

Russ Haworth: 00:17:04

It, it can feel, I guess, quite.

Russ Haworth: 00:17:08

Confusing as well, as exciting as well as kind of part of growing up

Russ Haworth: 00:17:12

and how you process that again, I'll be interested in your views on, you

Russ Haworth: 00:17:18

know, how people can set themselves up to, to help navigate that phase.

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:25

So one of the things that, that you are throwing me back

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:28

into thinking about is how much in the awareness phase of the tug

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:33

of war phase, that sense of being alone really begins to dominate.

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:44

Kids in general, don't want to share what's UN uncomfortable in their lives.

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:49

and particularly if you grow up from a family of prominence, At some

Jamie Weiner: 00:17:54

point, you begin to realize this is different than what the kids am growing

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:00

up around with are experiencing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:03

And that's even true if they also grow up in prominent families, but you're

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:08

not quite aware of the fact that they're struggling with their awarenesses in

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:16

this, you know, in the tug of war You know, we interviewed a couple people

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:22

who ended up oh, later in life, knowing each other from certain circumstances.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:29

And they had reached a point where they were now able to talk with each other

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:34

about their roles in the family about what, what their experiences meant.

Jamie Weiner: 00:18:40

And it's a huge difference.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:42

Yeah, absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:18:43

And I, I think that's, again, we, encourage people to, to go and read

Russ Haworth: 00:18:48

more about this, um, in the book, because, um, as you say that there's

Russ Haworth: 00:18:53

multiple examples that we use within the book to, to highlight some of

Russ Haworth: 00:18:57

this, couple of things as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:00

I, I just wanna ask at, at this stage, obviously, We've stated that

Russ Haworth: 00:19:05

the path or the quest is non-linear.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:08

So it's not, you go through this for six weeks and then you do this for six

Russ Haworth: 00:19:11

weeks, and then you come out with a certificate saying, um, you have, the

Russ Haworth: 00:19:16

quest for legitimacy is, is complete.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:19

There's a couple of things that spring to mind on that.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:21

In the last episode we spoke about the.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:24

The fact that you've lived this experience, but that you started

Russ Haworth: 00:19:29

the research with an appetite to be listening to the people

Russ Haworth: 00:19:32

that you've been working with.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:34

Not necessarily recognizing at that stage that you had

Russ Haworth: 00:19:37

lived that experience as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:40

And so coming to that period of awareness for you.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:46

Much later in, in terms of when we were talking to, to people

Russ Haworth: 00:19:50

who were, uh, experiencing it, um, in, in their own lives.

Russ Haworth: 00:19:54

I'm, I'm curious as to how that was for you in, in kind of the

Russ Haworth: 00:19:58

realization of her, hang on.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:00

This is really resonating with my own life as well.

Russ Haworth: 00:20:03

And the feelings I had at the time and the kind of tug of wars

Russ Haworth: 00:20:07

that you had a as a result of.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:10

So we, we, we had some examples of other people that resonated

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:14

with me and one of them was, um, Somebody whose family was the first family to

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:21

build private housing in Scotland.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:25

And she talked about the experience of being able to drive past

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:31

the houses couple weeks ago.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:35

Um, I had the opportunity to go back to a, a camp in Wisconsin that my father

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:41

was one of the founding rabbis of, and.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:46

Um, there was a chapel that was, the camp was small.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:53

At that point, it was built on the land of one of the summer

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:57

homes of the Carnation family.

Jamie Weiner: 00:20:59

One of the, a big, a big wealthy family in the states and, um, is

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:06

now 250 acres of land, a thousand kids a summer come to camp.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:14

And there had been a chapel there that got named after my father.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:20

And, um, as I sat with the camp director and, um, a rabbi who had been, um, the

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:31

assistant rabbi of my father before he passed, um, I couldn't help feel.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:40

How, how, how big shoes I was born into and what a powerful, you know,

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:47

what, with these families, what powerful things they, that they create

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:53

that live beyond their lifetimes.

Jamie Weiner: 00:21:56

And I think some of the beauty was beginning that awareness,

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:03

the tug of war, all those things.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:09

Kind of set the stage for the, the, the, the next phases of the quest

Russ Haworth: 00:22:14

Uh,

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:15

and you know, I I'm sitting in the chapel and it throws me back

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:19

into an awareness of what it was like to grow up in that camp as a staff brat.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:24

And, um, how, um, the, I was three years old and I had a little toy

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:31

guitar and I'd follow the song leader as he would lead songs.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:35

And I thought I was the cutest thing in the world at that point.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:39

I didn't always think that, but you know, there, there were

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:42

those moments where it just in.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:46

I think that's the power of those early phases and why it's important

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:51

to understand that when you come into, you know, realization

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:56

again, you're gonna go back

Russ Haworth: 00:22:58

mm-hmm.

Jamie Weiner: 00:22:59

and, um, you're going to go back to the awarenesses.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:03

That's set somewhere inside of you.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:06

Absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:07

And you say it kind of sets the, um, the tone for the, the future phases, which

Russ Haworth: 00:23:15

from tug of war, we move into exploration.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:19

And again, I think there's some.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:23

It would be useful to, to use examples of, of exploration because some

Russ Haworth: 00:23:27

people might think, well, I need to go off for six months to find myself,

Russ Haworth: 00:23:31

. But what do we mean in terms

Russ Haworth: 00:23:35

What does it look like for, For some of the people that we spoke with.

Russ Haworth: 00:23:39

And how would you summarize that?

Russ Haworth: 00:23:41

And I know there's a specific chapter in the book and it's difficult to

Russ Haworth: 00:23:45

just summarize an entire chapter, but, but just give us a feel for that.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:51

So, um, I had a conversation yesterday about, um, you know, we

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:57

talk about going off to college.

Jamie Weiner: 00:23:59

We talk about whatever that experiences, when you, you move away from home.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:07

And I was reminded by the fact that at that phase in our lives, If

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:14

the brain isn't completely formed till the age we 24 of 24, which

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:20

is what the current research is.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:22

You're somehow expected to be prepared and not prepared for

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:28

the next phase of your life.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:31

And we could get into helicopter parents and parents staying

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:36

very involved in what's supposed to be their exploration phase.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:41

But you know, one of the examples that we had was, um, somebody grew

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:46

up in Mexico, whose father's business actually won bankrupt while she was

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:52

growing up, which is a separate story.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:56

It's in the book.

Jamie Weiner: 00:24:57

but she really wanted to, um, explore the world outside of the

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:03

community that she was born into and she pushed and she traveled.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:12

She, um, had experiences where she was helping people, um,

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:19

um, who came from poverty.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:23

She, um, she did a lot on her during that period of her life to, um, gain just, um,

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:34

she went to a, a camp with people from the globe and each day they would talk

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:39

about, um, a different, you know, the culture and from the person from India.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:46

Um, So I think exploration is very different for each of us.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:53

I grew up in the, um, sixties and seventies.

Jamie Weiner: 00:25:59

Um, I was in the middle of grant park when there were demonstrations for the

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:05

1968 democratic convention in Chicago.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:11

Um, whether the violence broke out, all of that, um, all that begins to a add up

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:19

as, as, as we, our brains form, as we're figuring out who we are, exploration can

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:28

last, um, for good part of our lives.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:34

Um, there's some excitement in.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:37

It's also a period of challenge until we begin to feel that we're beginning

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:43

to get a sense of legitimacy in our own.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:45

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:26:47

and it's a very powerful phase.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:51

Mm.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:52

And.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:54

Those that, that navigate that phase of the quest.

Russ Haworth: 00:26:59

Um, we, we then refer to the final phase as ownership.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:06

And again, I think we, there needs to be some definition around this because

Russ Haworth: 00:27:11

often in family business terms and, and family enterprise or family wealth terms,

Russ Haworth: 00:27:15

ownership, obviously the term that's used for legal ownership of an asset or legal

Russ Haworth: 00:27:21

ownership of shares in a, a business.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:24

That's not what we're talking about.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:25

Right?

Russ Haworth: 00:27:26

So if anyone's got an ambition that if I follow the first three

Russ Haworth: 00:27:29

phase of the quest, I will become the owner of my family business.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:32

This is not what we are talking about in, in terms of, uh, the, the ownership.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:37

Phase.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:38

So perhaps we could define what that means when we're talking about ownership.

Russ Haworth: 00:27:42

Cause I think it's a, again, it's a really important element

Russ Haworth: 00:27:45

of, uh, the quest of legitimacy.

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:47

You know, Russ, you and I have talked about this

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:50

a lot because there's a lot of pressure, um, for, particularly

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:55

for family who own businesses.

Jamie Weiner: 00:27:58

To answer the question.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:00

Am I going into the business or am by not going into the business?

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:04

Am I getting shares?

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:05

Am I gonna be a shareholder?

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:08

And, and we could spend a lot of time on that, but that's not,

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:14

um, what we mean by ownership.

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:17

ironically, in some ways the writing of the quest for legitimacy of children

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:23

and prominent families, Find their unique place in the world gave me a

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:28

level of ownership that I don't think I've ever had in my life before, because

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:32

this was truly my accomplishment, but we saw this again and again, and, and

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:40

you know, another example that comes to mind is somebody who, , grew up in

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:46

a, , family, , Where the older sibling took on the role in the business of

Jamie Weiner: 00:28:52

leadership they had to sort out, well, if I'm not gonna be that, who am I gonna be?

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:04

And, um, how do I feel like I'm really making.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:12

You know, Freud talked about love and work as the two things that we're supposed

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:16

to master in the course of our lives and whatever people have to say about Freud,

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:23

those two things, you know, rang true in, um, the interviews that we've done.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:33

And, um, love may not mean traditional marriage.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:39

It's just, we don't have to think about it that way.

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:42

And certainly for people we, we interviewed, um, probably the most

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:50

dramatic example was somebody who broke their arm early on in their,

Jamie Weiner: 00:29:54

in their life and decided, um, that they didn't wanna be in the

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:00

family business, but they wanted to.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:03

Be a musician and a surfer.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:06

And, and it realized in some point that they needed to make money, to be

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:11

able to support all them and created a, a business that tied to the parents'

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:16

business, where they made, you know, that made sandwiches and wrapped.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:21

Um, all those are acts of moving from exploration to deciding that

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:30

you're gonna do what you want.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:32

and I don't mean that and oh my God, I, you know, I'm gonna do what I want,

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:37

but that you're gonna find, um, a sense of what gives you purpose and impact.

Russ Haworth: 00:30:44

Mm-hmm.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:45

Um, the irony, I think, is that for most of the people

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:50

who did that, developed stronger relationships with their families.

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:56

They wanted a role,

Russ Haworth: 00:30:58

Mm-hmm

Jamie Weiner: 00:30:59

um, God, we have just tons of stories, uh, coming from the people

Jamie Weiner: 00:31:07

we interviewed and the more people hear about what I'm doing, those are the

Jamie Weiner: 00:31:12

stories that come back to tell me about.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:16

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:16

And, and I think, again, that picks up on a, a point where whatever you or I

Russ Haworth: 00:31:23

are individual collectively talk about, um, what we've been doing and, and

Russ Haworth: 00:31:27

the findings from, uh, the research.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:30

And obviously the, the book that you've written.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:33

It resonates that there, there is this commonality of that.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:38

That's how I, I didn't know that's how I felt, but that's how I felt.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:42

Well, that's how I, I feel about it.

Russ Haworth: 00:31:44

And I think another key aspect of this is whilst again, you and I work

Russ Haworth: 00:31:48

in a world that is, you know, family, enterprise, family, business, family

Russ Haworth: 00:31:53

wealth, the, the quest is an individual quest that is agnostic of whether.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:01

You, you have the role in the family business it's agnostic of whether you

Russ Haworth: 00:32:06

have a share holding at some point, or that you take on the, the wealth.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:11

At some point it is much more centered around an internal

Russ Haworth: 00:32:15

quest that we each are on.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:18

To feel legitimate, to feel like we're able to contribute to, um, the, uh, we've

Russ Haworth: 00:32:25

got this term from, from the researchers, the institutions that we came from.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:29

So the, the groups that we come from in our lives, being able to feel like

Russ Haworth: 00:32:33

we can contribute back to that is a.

Russ Haworth: 00:32:35

Is a hugely rewarding sense and the clarity that can be delivered through

Russ Haworth: 00:32:41

taking ownership and, and through the, the phases that we've spoken about, um,

Russ Haworth: 00:32:47

today can be really powerful, right?

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:50

I loved a couple things that you did on some of the interviews we had.

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:54

There were a number of interviews, particularly the second ones that we

Jamie Weiner: 00:32:58

did with people we had interviewed before, where you would asked, um,

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:03

the interviewee, I don't like him to call him subject cuz we had real

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:08

conversations with him and subject seemed distancing, but you would ask.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:14

At this point in your life, do you view yourself as a giant and whether it's a

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:23

giant or whether it's that sense that you can walk in the land of the giants?

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:29

one of the people we talked to when you asked the question, well, yeah, I,

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:34

I, I have a special relationship with the generation coming up underneath me.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:39

And I think in their eyes, in that world, I've become a giant.

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:45

And, um, I, I, I think even beyond people in prominent families, even the

Jamie Weiner: 00:33:55

people I worked at cook county jail with some of their idea was their wish.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:01

If they could.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:03

Would be to find a legitimate way to get recognition for what they do.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:10

Um, cook honey, Joe was a wonderful example of seeing people who had, um, who

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:18

at times can be amazingly in inventive, but didn't know how to put it to good use.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:27

And, um, And I think that's a lot of what we discovered in

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:32

the course of the interviews.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:34

And particularly in this period of taking ownership is the sense

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:38

that I can put it to good use.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:42

Um, I can pass it on to the next generation.

Jamie Weiner: 00:34:46

it's, it's such powerful stuff.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:51

and I think as well, it we've mentioned a few times that the.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:56

The quest is not linear.

Russ Haworth: 00:34:58

Although there are these four phases and we recognize that, um, the people that

Russ Haworth: 00:35:02

we spoke to shared this common experience of, experience in these four phases.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:08

What it also means is that if you get to feeling that sense of ownership about

Russ Haworth: 00:35:14

something you've gone through the phase of being aware and exploring the tug of

Russ Haworth: 00:35:18

war and taking ownership of it, it doesn't mean that something's not gonna come along

Russ Haworth: 00:35:23

where that awareness phase is reignited.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:26

But I think the, the reassurance that can be taken that this, these

Russ Haworth: 00:35:29

are all opportunities for growth to become, to take even more

Russ Haworth: 00:35:33

ownership, to become much more.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:36

Comfortable in who we are and, and that feeling of legitimacy.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:40

Growing.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:41

It's not, it's not a destination, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:35:43

This is a lifelong quest.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:44

We are all on a lifelong quest for legitimacy.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:48

And I think that it it's important to highlight there's

Russ Haworth: 00:35:52

you can't rush through this.

Russ Haworth: 00:35:53

It's not a case of going, if you do a, B, C, and D, all of a sudden you will feel

Russ Haworth: 00:35:58

legitimate and you will be, uh, you'll be able to take ownership of your life.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:02

It is something that people need to live and to experience.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:06

It doesn't mean you can't be helped and guided through it.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:08

And, and that's part of what we're doing, uh, here and the

Russ Haworth: 00:36:11

work we're doing together.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:13

It, it's helping to, to guide and, and support people through this.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:17

But, but it's not a, a one time thing, right?

Russ Haworth: 00:36:20

It's not something we go, I I've reached, um, my ownership phase at, at 32.

Russ Haworth: 00:36:26

What, what now?

Jamie Weiner: 00:36:28

I think that's more and more true is people live longer.

Jamie Weiner: 00:36:33

Right.

Jamie Weiner: 00:36:34

You know, I'm in an age that at one point people would've been dead

Jamie Weiner: 00:36:38

or retired and I'm probably in the most productive period of my life.

Jamie Weiner: 00:36:45

And, um, the traditional use of the word rising wouldn't apply to me.

Jamie Weiner: 00:36:53

But, um, But I, I think rising when it really takes on meaning is when

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:00

it's about what your life's about.

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:04

Um, and I don't mean it in a, in an egotistical sense of, oh my God, I'm

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:10

greater than I was two days before.

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:13

But, um, in the sense of internally feeling more whole about who

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:21

you are and what you're doing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:23

And how you contributing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:26

Um, and it's not a piece of cake, you know, it doesn't magically happen.

Jamie Weiner: 00:37:32

There's there's effort.

Russ Haworth: 00:37:34

Absolutely.

Russ Haworth: 00:37:35

And, and one of the things, again, that, that resonated with me was obviously

Russ Haworth: 00:37:39

we spoke to the, the people that, that we spoke to a couple of times over, uh,

Russ Haworth: 00:37:43

a couple of years and we kept in touch with them and, and are feeding back the,

Russ Haworth: 00:37:48

the findings of, of what we, um, just sort of discovered through the process.

Russ Haworth: 00:37:53

And, and I think what's very, uh, encouraging and, and reassuring is that.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:00

Most of the people that we spoke to.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:02

We wish we'd known.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:03

This was a thing before we experienced it.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:06

Now there, wasn't a way to know.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:07

Cause obviously we, we just launching the book and, and doing the research now.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:12

But again, the reassurance that comes from not being alone, ha having,

Russ Haworth: 00:38:17

um, a, a framework to refer to, to go, okay, now I understand this.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:21

I can, I can label, I can call it something.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:23

Although it might look different and feel different for people.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:26

It, it was really reassuring to know that.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:29

This is something that is a shared experience across people from a

Russ Haworth: 00:38:33

completely different continent to me in a completely different environment.

Russ Haworth: 00:38:37

Um, and I think that's an important message to echo on,

Russ Haworth: 00:38:39

on today's conversation as well.

Jamie Weiner: 00:38:41

Yeah, I, I think Russ it's become a challenge for you and

Jamie Weiner: 00:38:45

I cuz writing a book has been amazing doing the research has been amazing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:38:51

The experience of working together has been amazing, but translating this in

Jamie Weiner: 00:38:57

some ways that would help other people in not feel lonely and isolated and

Jamie Weiner: 00:39:03

be able to rise to their best cells.

Jamie Weiner: 00:39:07

Boy, that would be amazing.

Jamie Weiner: 00:39:09

So we still have some work ahead of us.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:12

Yeah.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:13

Um, and, uh, I'm very excited about that.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:17

I think that would, that's a, a great point to, to bring this, uh,

Russ Haworth: 00:39:21

particular conversation to an end.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:23

We have an another episode that is coming up, where we delve into a bit more detail.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:28

Around what's referred to in the book as a breaking moment and, and periods

Russ Haworth: 00:39:31

of, uh, liminality after that, or, uh, as part of those breaking moments.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:38

Um, and I'm again, very excited about, uh, digging into those

Russ Haworth: 00:39:42

in, in much more detail.

Russ Haworth: 00:39:44

Um, but for now, Jamie, thank you again for, for joining and we in the show and,

Russ Haworth: 00:39:48

and look forward to our next conversation.

Jamie Weiner: 00:39:50

Always a pleasure.