"They showed up at my house and told me I was no longer in the group." In Part 2, Michael Passons reveals the failed "cure" that cost him his career and the 17-year battle to reclaim his life.

For nearly two decades, the official story was that Michael Passons left the multi-platinum group Avalon to "pursue other interests." Today, the silence ends.

In this conclusion to our interview, Michael takes us inside the room on June 30, 2003, detailing the unannounced "intervention" at his home that erased him from the band he helped build. He opens up about the industry ultimatum - "get cured or get out" - and the reality of the "reparative therapy" sessions that failed to change who he was, but succeeded in breaking his spirit.

But the trauma is only half the story. This episode is a masterclass in survival and healing. Michael shares how he navigated the "dark night of the soul" after being muzzled by NDAs and management , how he deconstructed the narrative that he was "broken," and how he finally made peace with the "boy in the mirror."

The truth was brutal, but the healing is beautiful.

Chapters & Timestamps:

00:03. - The Ambush: "June 30, 2003: They Came to My House"

01:54. - The Secret: "I'm Gay" (Admitting the Lie)

05:20. - Family, faith and the barrier to belonging - the "othering" of LGBTQ+ people

08:47. - Reaching Out for Help

09:16. - Reparative Therapy: Calling Mike Malloy & The "Cure" That Failed

12:30. - The Process: Weekly Sessions at Reparative Therapy

17:10. - The Duality of Self

21:15. - The Spy: "Someone Saw Me at a Club" (The Beginning of the End)

23:02. - The "Purple Mirror": Industry Hypocrisy & Fake Marriages

23:18. - The Impact of Public Perception

30:20. - The Campaign: "Either He Go or I Go" (The Ultimatum)

30:39. - The End of the Road: Facing theConsequences

34:00. - The Aftermath: Becoming a Shell of a Person

34:48. - The Turning Point: Identity and Loss

40:31. - Deconstruction: Flattening the Boxes of Belief

41:02. - Rebuilding Belief Systems

44:50. - The Last Prejudice of the Church (Divorce vs. Gay Rights)

47:51. - Faith and Acceptance: A Journey of Understanding

54:12. - Navigating Identity and Belonging

58:10. - The "PR" Lie: "Pursuing Other Interests" & The NDA

59:25. - Reclaiming My Narrative

01:02:27. - Finding Authenticity in Writing

01:03:00. - New Music: "Destined To Be" & The Boy in the Mirror

01:13:34. - Reflections on Faith and Change

01:16:10. - Political Hypocrisy: "You Embraced Trump, But Threw Me Out"

01:20:32. - The Journey of Marginalization and Music

01:25:02. - LGBTQ+ Struggle for Safety and Acceptance: Stories from Around the World

01:28:32. - The Starfish Story: Why One Person Matters

01:30:31. - The Power of Inner Voice

About the Guest:

Michael Passons is a founding member of the Grammy-nominated group Avalon. After being forced out of the group in 2003 due to his sexuality, Michael spent nearly two decades out of the public eye. Today, he is reclaiming his voice as an advocate for "Exvangelicals" and LGBTQ+ inclusion in faith spaces, sharing the untold story of the machinery that tried to erase him.

Are you ready to heal and grow? Start your journey with me by signing up at thepatrickcustershow.com 👈 for exclusive updates, resources and behind‑the‑scenes insights from each episode. It’s your invitation to experience “entertainment that heals,” where vulnerability becomes strength and hope is contagious.

Please click Follow on this page so you never miss an episode (and help us continue to change lives) — I appreciate every single one of you for joining this community.

Whether you’re here for your own growth or because someone you love shared this conversation, I’m grateful you’re listening and want to welcome you to The Patrick Custer Show family. Please pass this episode along to friends, family and anyone who might need a lift. When we open up about our struggles and triumphs, we remind each other that we’re not broken, we’re becoming.

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🤝 Sponsor Spotlight – Bright Horse Counseling

We’d like to thank our episode sponsor Bright Horse Counseling, one of Nashville’s most respected therapy practices. Their clinicians specialize in trauma, PTSD, personality disorders, anxiety, addiction, maternal mental health, couples work and more. Bright Horse blends embodiment, insight and research‑backed modalities like DBT, EMDR and trauma‑informed yoga. They offer secure telehealth anywhere in Tennessee and have a no‑nonsense relational style.

1. Website: talktobrighthorse.com
2. Phone: 615‑637‑7000
3. Instagram

Takeaways:

1. Michael Passon shares his personal journey of coming out and the challenges he faced in a conservative environment, emphasizing the importance of authenticity over societal expectations.
2. The podcast discusses the impact of community and belonging, highlighting how losing a support system can lead to profound personal struggles and the journey to reclaim one's identity.
3. Listeners are encouraged to confront their inner voice and challenge negative narratives, stressing that self-acceptance and positive thinking can lead to transformative change.
4. The conversation touches on the evolution of faith and beliefs, illustrating that questioning long-held doctrines can lead to a more profound understanding of one's spirituality.
5. Michael emphasizes the importance of compassion and empathy, urging listeners to recognize the struggles of marginalized communities and work towards inclusivity and acceptance.
6. The episode concludes with a powerful reminder that it's never too late to embrace one's true self and that personal stories can inspire and empower others in similar situations.

And that started the snowball of me now being scrutinized because now people have confirmed suspicions. This person basically told the label it's either he go or I go. Because I was the one that didn't fit into the conservative narrative.

It was basically like I was thrown off the tour bus. But they didn't come to a complete stop. My friends, my social life, my career, my paycheck, everything was gone in a flash.

Welcome back to the Patrick Custer Show. In part one, you heard about Michael Passon's early success and the weight he carried behind the scenes.

Now we continue our conversation right after a life changing confession. Have you ever been forced to choose between your authenticity and your community? Or had to reinvent yourself after losing everything?

In this episode, we tackle difficult questions about belonging, healing, and redefining faith. Michael shares how he faced rejection, the spiral that followed, and the steps he took to reclaim his voice.

This rare interview offers hope to anyone navigating shame, trauma or identity. Don't forget to subscribe, rate and share this show.

No matter if you're watching on YouTube or listening on your favorite audio platform, follow hepatrick custershow on your favorite social media platform as well. Every share helps others discover these powerful stories and reminds them that they're not alone.

I was dealing with those little mortar shells along the way before the big bomb went off for several years.

What was the secret you were keeping?

That I'm gay. And I. The fact that I say that without blinking an eye to you today is a. Is a major milestone in my life.

But it's something that I have come to accept and, and not have an issue with whatsoever. But that's not. Michael. 20 years ago, I. I would have been in a cold sweat and avoided that question.

You know, Then when did you accept that that was the reality internally? Like, when did you actually believe that you were gay?

Oh, I've always known. I mean, not always. When I was a kid, I'm like, wait, I was on a hayride. I'm like, wait, why? Why are all my friends wanting to kiss girls right now?

Like, why? What's going on? That was seventh grade. And so that was my first inkling that I was different.

Because when you grow up, what you feel inside, you feel like everyone is feeling like everyone else is feeling exactly the way you do. Yeah, you don't know you're different.

So the first time I felt different was that seventh grade hayride when everybody wanted to make out and I'm like, hey, I just wanted to have fun and roast some marshmallows and ride on the hay. Why is everyone getting under blankets? And so I it's like, okay.

And as time went on I there's a certain amount of denial for a young man, but by the time I hit college, I knew exactly what was happening.

I just didn't want to talk about it with anybody, especially going to a Christian university and being in a Christian home and very a somewhat conservative upbringing wasn't overly conservative, but somewhat so.

Not to throw anybody under the bus, but I think this helps establish your story and an understanding of how you made decisions along the way.

If you're listening right now and you've been feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or tired of repeating the same emotional patterns, listen up. There's real help available. Today's episode is brought to you by Bright Horse Counseling, one of Nashville's most respected therapy practices.

If you know their founder, Lizzie Harrigan, you already get it. She's built a team that's honest, deeply skilled, and not afraid to get real with you.

BrightHorse specializes in the hard stuff trauma, PTSD, personality disorders, anxiety, addiction, maternal mental health and complex couples work. They're known for their no nonsense relational style and their commitment to doing a.

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Real change in your family Was this something that had been addressed by your parents about what you all believed about this specific topic?

It was more so coming from my faith based culture, the small church. That's just what conservative Christianity instills in their teaching.

I do feel like there are certain things that conservative minded people will put more emphasis on when maybe they shouldn't, and this may be one of Them, but, you know, it was just something. It was those scriptures, you know, in the Bible. But more than that, it was cultural as well. I grew up in. In a small town.

I grew up five miles outside of a small town in Mississippi. You know, all my family were deer hunters, even the women. Everybody went to the woods in camo. And I was like, can I just stay here?

I just wanted to play my music. I was different all the way around. Most of the men in my family didn't know what to do with me. I love my father.

He was very gracious man, and he was always there for me. But there were all the other men in my family. It was like they wouldn't. I had one uncle that never, ever, ever called me by my name.

He would just say that, boy. Because they just didn't know what to do with me. I was so different. And I felt it. I wanted.

I wanted to be loved and accepted by them, but I never could get there. There just was that unspoken narrative. Yeah. That being gay was just wrong. You know, and here are the scriptures to back it up. And my family did not.

They weren't, you know, hellfire and brimstone. But I do remember the day when my. When my father asked me. I was in college, but I lived so far. I lived so close that I was home every weekend, and.

And he just asked me, son, you know, are you a homosexual? I love it when they say the whole word.

Right.

It just seems so archaic. But I denied it, you know, he says, because if you are, we'll get you some help. You know that. And. And, you know, that's just.

He thought there could be help. He wasn't trying to be belittling to me. My father loved me. He was the kind of man that didn't quite say it, but he sure knew how to show it, and.

Sorry.

Take your time.

I just miss them. It's. That's where this is coming from. Because they've been gone a while, but when I talk about them. But that's. That's what he knew.

He was just a country. He was just a country man. He. He thought really, you could find help. So that was coming from a place of love.

Yeah.

But that's all that was ever said. Growing up in that small little bubble that I was, there's no way that I could have reached out and found a safe space in Mississippi.

So one of the first calls I made when I moved to Nashville, I worked for a country music producer. So that was my first job. I was on Music Row every Day getting food for the artist or washing his car, his dog, whatever.

I remember having some downtime at a place called Master Phonics right there on Music Row.

And I was in the little waiting room and I just grabbed a phone book and I went to the Yellow Pages and I just called, started calling therapists like, no one knows me here. I can finally reach out. I'm anonymous. I'm going to fix myself. I'm gonna get myself fixed. And so the first call I made, sorry, we don't do that.

But call this guy or you ask him for. I was. I was looking for gay reparative therapy. I didn't say it like that. You know, I didn't. I didn't have those. I didn't have that vocabulary then.

But for anybody who doesn't know, just to flush this out.

Yeah.

Reparative therapy is therapy to d. To make you straight.

Yeah.

To make you straight. Yeah. Which. And I feel the need to say this has been outlawed in 43, thank goodness, states.

I believe at this point I'm probably going to get this wrong as I'm saying it, but it's actually more than what. What. What I'm about to say.

Huge research studies done that say a child who is raised in an affirming, accepting household is six times less likely to attempt to take their own life. The statistics is usually worded the opposite way around. But I think I was trying to lighten the load of saying that. You know what I mean?

But when you think about when you're saying six times, those are like, yeah.

Those are concerning numbers.

The statistics are staggering. So as we talk about this and the age that you were. I do want to reflect on.

On that.

For the listener who may be the parent of a youngster or a youngster listening that's in that same situation and your parents are definitely not.

You know, the first call I made is, no, you need to call Mike Malloy. And if you ask any guy that was in Nashville in the 90s that wanted to fix themselves, they will know Mike Malloy.

I know that name.

And I. I actually sent myself to reparative therapy in the early 90s, and Mike is one of those guys. He made a journey as well. If. If some listeners may recall an organization called Exodus.

I was gonna ask you if he was.

I thought that he was not part of it, but Exodus was known as being the premier place.

Yeah.

To go for reparative therapy. But to my surprise, the organization came out several years ago and said, it doesn't work. And we're not going to continue to do this.

Mike took that same journey, and he's retired now. But after I had left his, his care, he evolved his therapy into helping men accept themselves rather than change themselves.

And I thought that was a wonderful evolution on his part. Yeah. But to go back to the early 90s, I, I, I called him, I went through his program, and nothing changed.

So there are different levels of, I've heard, working in behavioral health. Let me tell you. I can't tell you how many people I put into treatment for mental health and trauma because of the damage that's been done.

And there's a full spectrum of, when you talk about reparative therapy that exists out there.

Right.

What did yours look like?

Mine was weekly sessions, one on one with him, and it was just talking.

And then there was a group thing maybe every other week where other men who were seeing Mike individually, we would get together at a local church and just share stories, and that was it. And I went to him for about two years consistently, but nothing changed. And that's, that's when I knew that that type of thing didn't work.

And I thought, well, is it just up to me to pray it away? And, and so for years, that's, that was my plan, was just to keep praying.

Now, can I rephrase that? So you did wait. How long did you do the program with him?

Three, probably about two years.

Two years. So you said you ended and your plan was. Only option, you're thinking is to pray. So you're like, I'm just trying. Pray it.

Yeah. If this didn't work, then.

So if I word that if I take what you just said and say a little bit of a different way, the program didn't work for you, so you were left believing that prayer had to be what would work. And if it didn't, it was a.

Reflection on, it was a reflection on me, maybe my failure to allow that program to be successful, or maybe my prayers were unsuccessful, I don't know. But it was just a major struggle because that was my bubble.

I was in this conservative bubble, where even in Nashville, because I started playing for that church and I was part of that church, it was just, you know, it was just wrong. You just weren't that way. And so how do I manage my community and, and manage this as well?

So the way I did it was I just stuffed it down and I hit it. And I was young, and no one was really questioning why I wasn't married yet.

And so I could easily just slide through Life and create this imposter syndrome.

Was this something that you.

Hadn't.

How do I ask this in a, In a. In a polite way?

Oh, you don't have to be polite with me.

Okay. So had you, had, had you experienced relationships or interactions with other.

Yes.

People. Other men and.

Yeah, I was even my first love was in college. But it was. You just. It was exhausting to have to be. To have to think about hiding everything.

That was exhausting even for a young man with lots of energy. It was exhausting. And so you have to constantly think about what you're doing and if it's going to be found out.

Because, you know, I wanted to love and be loved like everyone else. Right.

And how do you reconcile this is, this is the, the, the questions that I have to think I know my own answers here. Right. Like, you know, being raised in these circles and the tenets of all that we're talking about. But you're having a lie.

You live a lie, and then you're having to vocally lie all the time.

Like.

How do you reconcile what we believe about. I mean, like, that lying is this grand sin that we're not supposed to do.

But then do you just tell yourself, like, do you just avoid and shelve the fact that, like, that's not a lie? I didn't think.

I think I developed two of me. There was the real me, who was the person feeling all of those things inside.

And then there was the me that would show up to church, the me that would show up on stage, and that's the only way I could do it. And now, you know, I, I have reconciled the two together now, but it's taken many years. But then they were two separate people.

When did you get. When you had the splitting. You know, it's, it's a. It's a thing. So when did you get to be the shelf to Michael or did that ever get during that time?

Right. Like on stage and at church, you're this version that we're talking about. Right. But yeah. Did the, did the Michael on the shelf ever get.

Or was he just literally shelved the whole time?

No, I. I would have times where I would feel brave enough to. To reach out for love and affection. And it was scary because you've got. You've got to not only realize it's. You're. You're adding another person.

You've got to be able to trust that person. Got to be able to trust that person to know how high the stakes are for you and can you Trust them with your secret.

So you didn't have a stack of NDAs that you were.

I should have maybe. No, no, no. But that did eventually get me in trouble. You know, the house of cards did fall because I was. I was playing both ends there.

I was in a community. I, you know, I, I was with a. I had a career to where these are the rules and I was breaking the rules.

And so, you know, at the end of the day, that, that, that is going to cause an issue. And it did.

Finally, what happened?

I started getting angry. If you want to know the catalyst for why I became so careless. My bandmates were getting married. They were all getting married.

I was in all their weddings. And I was just getting angry that their lives were going on.

I was getting angry that everyone was so happy for how their lives were progressing in this natural manner and celebrating the fact that they have someone that they're going to now pledge their love to. And that anger built up. It kind of snuck up on me. And I just started like, you know, wtf? Let's just.

I'm just going to do my thing because nothing's going to change. So am I just going to waste my youth? And so I started to see people and like, Like I told you earlier, people like to target successful people.

And so someone that to this day, I do not know who they are, but they called my record company and said that they solved me at a certain place. A certain place that would. That I shouldn't have been. And that's. That started the snowball right there. It was. It wasn't.

The end was several years away, but that started the snowball of me now being scrutinized by my record company, my management and my group mates. Because now people have confirmed suspicions.

Was this the first time the record label or your bandmates had, like, what?

Yeah, that's the point.

Take us through what happened. They pulled you in for a meeting?

Well, no, I just had a meeting with the record label president.

He says, look, basically what he says, he says, when you're dealing with this community, and I'm paraphrasing, if you're dealing with this kind of community, there can be people that kind of want to be snide and snarky. And I'm like, what is he getting at with this? What community? And then he said, someone saw you out Saturday night.

And I remember I went someplace because I was curious. I had a cap on, he says. And he. And he says. And they. And they described what you were wearing. And this is what you're wearing. I'm like, hold on.

I'm not denying this. You don't have to keep coming at me with your bag of proof. And I just wore my cap really low. I went into a club, and I'm just like.

I was a wallflower. I went alone. I left alone. But I was just curious what it was that.

Your first time to it.

And someone saw me. Someone. Even though my cat was low, someone recognized me. To this day, I have no idea. And they took it upon themselves to call my record company.

And that was the first taste of me realizing that strangers are out to get me because I. That was a foreign concept to me. And so. And this is obviously a brother, you know, someone.

Which I was going to say it. It's. We now know. I mean, it's just full. Of course. Especially in Nashville. I mean, half the. The club was probably full of.

That is a. That is a whole nother conversation. You have to turn the mics off for.

I could.

I could.

Even today, I could burn this industry to the ground with the people that I know who went places with their caps down, you know, and are even worse and. But that doesn't do any good for me to divulge any of that. It's like, that's their journey. And for a while there, that made me angry, too.

It made me angry, too, that all you had to do in this town was wear a wedding ring.

And no one, Everyone would stay off your back, no matter how obvious it was that you may or may be gay if you're wearing a wedding ring, no questions asked. I'm like, okay, well, I am not going to bring a woman into this smokescreen. I'm not going to do that.

What do they call it? A purple mirror.

Purple mirror is their name.

I think that's what it's called. A purple.

Well, there's a lot of that in entertainment.

That's when it's consensual, when both parties know. Are aware, and they are aware. It's for the purpose of.

So what do they call it when the wife has no idea?

I don't know if that one gets a color, a show.

Yeah, let's just brown.

Yeah. Yeah. And. And so. All right, you. He pulls you in. You're like, okay, not trying to deny.

Yeah, I did deny it.

So.

But that. That started the extra scrutiny on me. Not just from other people, just now, from within.

And there were certain people in Avalon that were ultra conservative. There's different.

You know, you get four people together, there's going to be four people coming at you from different backgrounds and directions and. And how they view theology and what we're all about. And there were some. They were quite conservative, and it didn't sit well with them.

So what happens is Michael has to go back to reparative therapy to save his job.

Before you go into reparative therapy, I have a question that maybe only I care about, but I'm going to ask it anyway.

Sure.

Okay. Was it who. Whoever it was that created the group, the label.

The label and management together.

So. Because in some groups it's like the group gets together or one of them is the. The head and, you know, like. So it depends on how. Right. It's formed.

Right, right. Like, so how it's decided, who, if there's a disagreement, those kinds of things.

Right.

Throughout the rollout of the time that you were in the group, was this group administered and. And led by the governance of the label, or was there a democracy among the members or.

That was all. That's a good question. It was very fuzzy. There were certain issues where we felt like we were in the driver's seat.

But when it came down to it, we realized we weren't. Because at the end of the day, the label holds all the cards, and the cards are green, the cards are dollars.

And so at the end of the day, they really had to say so of how or what things. How things happened. And that's fair. They were. It was there, you know, they were putting up all this money to make all of this happen.

You know, I was just this kid along for the ride and was happy to be. But.

So, yeah. Moving on to what? Thank you for answering that question that you said. So what's the obvious next step? Go back to reparative therapy?

Well, there was a demand. I had to come off the road for a while. They found a replacement temporarily, and I would.

What was the excuse they gave the public for the replacement?

You know, I don't know, Michael. Just need some time off. PR was always. It was always fun to see what they were going to come up with. Yeah. But I. They said, you've got to go.

We'll find a place for you. We just need you to go and. And do your thing. And again, these are people that are thinking that reparative therapy is a thing, that it works.

And I went for a while and, you know, I sat there basically like we're sitting here in two chairs and I. And I would just talk. It wasn't like they were talking to me. They weren't giving me any structure, any instructions, any antidotes.

It was just me talking and them looking really sad for me. And I'm like, I don't think this is going to work. I don't need sad looks. I don't need to talk about it. I've talked about this ad nauseam all my life.

If not to people, certainly to God in my prayers. And so I know that what is happening here is a waste of everyone's time. So I eventually said, I'm not going back, and I went back on the road.

Was it with. Was it with stipulation when you were like, I, I'm done with that. I'm ready to rejoin the group. Were there stipulations when you.

And when I was asked about it, what does one do when they're cornered? What does one do when their career is on the line? They don't really tell the truth about it.

You know, I've learned a lie very well in those situations. That's what a person does when you grow up in that type of environment is self preservation, to not tell the truth.

Well, I'm not quite sure to this day if the situation I was in or the fact that I didn't tell her the truth was the reason that this person decided to start a campaign to get me out. I have a feeling it's the latter, because this person told me years before that it's like, you don't ever lie to me.

And I saw that side of this person when people had crossed them and it wasn't pretty. And so I, to this day, I have a feeling it's more of that than who I was. But this person's really started an aggressive campaign to oust me.

And it worked because this person basically told the label, it's either he go or I go. And I think the. The label is like, well, we're going to have a group that just falls apart here.

And so let's just do what we got to do, get rid of Michael and see if we can salvage the rest and keep going. That's the way I. I hear the conversation going because I wasn't part of those conversations. This. All these conversations happened behind my back.

The, like the, the record company people and the group.

No, just the group. Just the three members. Yeah. And there were so many ways I could have taken that conversation.

I could have led that conversation in several different ways, and it would have ended so differently, and history would be so different right now. But I didn't take anybody else down with me. I could have, but I just politely asked them to leave. And that was then.

It was basically like I was thrown off the tour bus, but they didn't come to a complete stop, and they didn't look back. And so I, I was devastated. It was the most. It was the lowest point of my life because I had lost my community, because that was.

Every egg I had was in that basket. All my friends, my social life, my career, my paycheck, everything was gone in a flash.

When you're not just. I mean, for so many of us, what we do for work is a huge piece of our identity. Yeah. If we're not totally careful.

But even, I mean, it's really hard to not let it be, you know, Especially if you're passionate about what you do. Yeah. But they're on top of that, that it's directly connected to. When you get to become somebody who's a successful.

Person, representing the message that you're raised is the most important in life. And you're traveling across. I mean, like, you're elevated on a pedestal. Like, how does that not become what makes you worthy? Yeah, totally. Like.

And then they just took what makes you worthy away.

Mm. They took my identity away. So I was a shell of a person for years, literally. I, I. Now's the time I actually need therapy.

Now's when therapy might work, but just a different kind.

Just to know how to get up off the floor, you know, it's like I, I was, I was damaged goods in this town because there's no way that I could just quit a group at the top of their game and everybody in town not have questions about it. And so I, I, I had no traction in, in Nashville after that. I tried.

I went to other managers, other people that I knew and that I were friends of mine. And they were all very sympathetic, but they couldn't help me because it was just. It's the way the system set up. It was.

A system of very conservative beliefs.

Yeah. It didn't fit the mold, and it didn't even matter if you were.

There's a very prominent female at the time, very prominent female Christian singer who's brother is one of us, who Got found out. And I worked behind this. I mean, like a writer or.

I know who you're talking about. Great guy.

And couldn't same. I mean, like, he got ousted.

It's a vicious thing when people go after you and want to tell your story. It's my story to tell, but people were more anxious to tell it because it was salacious.

Then you can't make a living.

Yeah, but, you know, I can sit here and talk about all those years of anguish and hiding and whatever, but I would rather talk about the moment where I came out of that, because I feel like when I have these people still hitting me up, hitting me up on Instagram and asking me how did I do it? Like, gosh, I don't know if I can tell you exactly how to do it. I can only tell you how I did it. I started.

Can we. Sorry, can I pause you one second? This is going to nag at me if I don't ask this before we move on, because you're right.

This is the most important part we're getting to.

And when you go through a trauma, but especially trauma that involves other people, and I have this feeling that, as you've explained, you and I have a very similar way of responding in conflict, which is not to fight. It's. It's more of a, like, shut down and just not explode. Would I be correct in that?

Especially when you're not the one holding the cards.

Okay, yeah, sure.

So.

You, in your own words, described how they had a decision to make when someone had taken it upon themselves to do something and start a campaign and said to the record label, it's either them or me. And they didn't want the group to fall apart. What did you tell yourself? Why would the group fall apart if they chose you over this other person?

Because I was the one that didn't fit into the conservative narrative. And that was their audience. Their audience were. Our audience was a very conservative bunch of people.

So with me now having rumors swirling and rumors were swirling bigger than I thought, they were reaching other promoters in other cities, people love to talk. So it was out there. And so I have a feeling if I had stayed, I'm not. I'm not sure what any of the other members would have done.

And so it was very easy for me to say, okay, well, sure, because you Know I'm sinning. And so I guess this is what was an inevitable thing. And so just didn't know if and when it would happen. So it's happened. So here we go.

So I just kind of took it on the chin because I just was expecting it to come at some point.

You know, as we navigate towards the good news and the healing that the, the overcomer, the survivor story has so much power when you understand what was survived. You know, I reference so much of the time I'm like, oh, that was, that was.

Those were the years you were gone, you know, because you, you did kind of disappear for a while, many years.

Because I felt again, it's interesting because I told you I started reaching out to people after it was over to see if I could revive some sort of career, solo career, whatever. And I reached out to one artist management person who was a very kind soul. And I just remember her telling me after we met, she's.

And she said, michael, you just have to remember this is such a small little industry. And I didn't grab a hold of those words like I should have at the point, at that point. But she was right.

It was such a small little world, but it was my whole world. And so I just knew that everyone in my whole world knew my biggest secret. So I just need to go hide.

And it took me a long time to realize the world was so much bigger than that. And so as my mind opened up, I began to be open to see all the things I'd believed all my life.

I began to see how maybe there is a different way of believing. And then that just kept evolving into there is a different way of believing.

You're defining what in therapy terms we would. We would refer to as like somebody hitting rock bottom from a belief system that wasn't working for them.

But you have to go through the stages of grief in order to get there.

You can't throw away decades of a belief system overnight. No, you have to hit something hard enough to crack that wide open. And yeah, like you said, I did. And I equate it to moving boxes.

You know, when you, when you're done moving, you have to flatten all those boxes. And so I just equate all my belief system system is all these U haul boxes.

And at some point I had to flatten them all and rebuild the whole thing again. And that's why I disappeared. I was rebuilding myself and everything that I was taught.

And one thing that I came to realize is when you're a kid, you're spoon fed what to believe. So at some point you have to be, you have to come to the place where like, okay, let me hash through all of this. What do I think is the truth?

What do I believe is the truth?

You're lucky if you get to that point. We have a world full of people who don't. And they're walking around believing, they're walking.

Around with their eyes swirling, just taking in what someone else is saying. For whatever reason. It may be that they don't want to do the work, they just want someone to tell them how to believe. That wasn't working for me.

I've had decades of people telling me how to believe and it wasn't working, it wasn't adding up. And so I'm like, I'm going to do the work. I have critical thinking and I'm going to use it.

And that's, you know, when I started delving into all the things what, what brought me to the place to where people were going to condemn me for who I was. And I started looking at scripture and those little cherry picked nuggets that people love to hang on to.

And it's basically, you know, look at all the things conservative Christians have let go of because the status quo now didn't have a problem with it. Like, wait, these are ancient text. The text hasn't changed since millennia when they were written, they haven't changed.

But yet the way that we interpret them is ever evolving and changing in my lifetime. Crazy how much it has happened. And so that got me thinking, why are we hanging on to certain things and letting other things go?

Rewriting how we analyze and how we interpret scripture? And I think, I think it's maybe based on people's biases, people's prejudices, maybe people's hate.

And I'm like, I'm not going to be a victim to this because anything that man has put his hands on is subject to being. Eroded by pride, by self interest. And I just, I kind of see that cherry picking happening with scriptures.

Like, you know, we're going to hold on to this because most of us don't have that problem and we don't like you. And so we're going to prop up our prejudice, we're going to prop up our bias and use this scripture.

Whereas I've seen everything else like, oh, we're gonna let this slide now. You know, just, I mean, I don't want to give a history lesson, but everyone knows it's like there was a time when Christians use scripture to.

Justify slavery.

To justify not having civil rights. Yeah, to justify keeping women on the sideline to interracial marriage. Whatever this.

And so I read a book recently that my friend Mike Malloy, going back to him, suggested. In this book, the premise was there is a last thing. It's called the Good Book. Okay, don't quote me if that's wrong, I'll let you know.

But a chapter in there was called the Last Prejudice of the Church.

It is called the Good Book. And somebody else told me about this recently, like in the last week.

Yeah, and it made a lot of sense because I remember being a kid and a sweet lady in our church, her husband wanted a divorce and she just would come crying over at my parents house every night wanting some sort of, you know, counseling. Like how I can't get a divorce. Can't a divorce. That's how it was when I was a kid in the church.

Well, now you drive down Hillsborough Road in Nashville where you. There's a church on every block and they've got banners outside. Divorce recovery seminar just in my lifetime.

Okay, so you get to rewrite how things go for you. Because now the status quo, most of you are divorced or know someone who's divorced.

You have a sympathy for that now because someone you love goes through that. So now your heart is open to having a better understanding of who that person is, why they're dealing with this. So that's my mantra.

You, if you have someone in your life that you love who is gay or bi or trans or whatever, your heart now has the opportunity to be open. Whereas if you don't know someone, if you don't love someone who is going through this, you don't have a reason to change your mind.

And so I'm blessed that the community that I'm in has open hearts. My family, my friends. And that is pliable. And they're able to see the person and not this thing that they think is sinful.

And you know, I'm proud to be who I am. I do not believe I'm a mistake because only I can tell you I would never choose anything like this.

And I believe any person that is gay would say that you don't choose this. Just. No, no more than a straight person chooses to be straight. And so I'm. I'm this by design.

And that has made the difference for me in realizing that, that this is nothing to be ashamed of. And I'm not. And there's plenty of people out there who will disagree with me. There's people I love that Will disagree with me on this.

Yeah, but I'm not going to let that be a barrier. There's too many barriers already.

When do you think that that changed for you, that it was a frog.

And a frying pan? Patrick, It's. I remember going to a different church in Nashville than the one that I had been a member of all these years.

And the pastor was asking all these intriguing questions, thought for broken questions never thought I'd hear at church. And the church actually ended up becoming affirming. And so here I am in this. I call that my transitional period.

I was still at church and this church was transitioning into being a welcoming, friendly place of worship. And that was part of flattening the boxes and rebuilding back.

Seeing that happen in that type of situation, in a faith based situation, and having dear friends like my friend Melissa Green, who is in Avalon with me, who was in my living room that night when I got kicked out. But she has made a journey alongside with me. We've made it separately and reconvened down the road to where she's been very instrumental in. In.

In my journey in healing.

Was she in the group? She wasn't in the group.

She was in the group.

She was in the. She was part of the four. When. When they had to come to your. Yes, when they came to you.

She had, she had just joined the group the year prior, and so she was a newbie. She was just there to be there. She. She wasn't making any of the decisions.

But she will tell you, and, and I've heard her say it, she will tell you that at that time in her life, she believed what the group was doing was the way to go. But to, To.

Well, technically based off of how you were telling me, you also, I mean, in your head, you were.

In my head, I thought you were.

Gaslighting your own self to believe that that was the right. You know, I mean, well, not to.

Make it right, but, but, but I knew I. I knew the world I was in and I knew the rules of that world.

Right.

So that.

I'm really glad that I asked that question because knowing Melissa and hearing what you just, you know, shared about.

For those who don't know Melissa, I mean, she's just such a light and a beautiful, affirming world changer now and does so much for the LGBTQ + community. And she's had her own faith, evolution and, and, and whatnot.

She was also very young at the time. She was just got married. She was in her early 20s.

She was still finding herself and she was, like I said before, a product of, of her growing up, growing up environment. We, we believe what we were taught until we get to a place where we start hashing out what we really believe.

Well, and that's the thing.

If you, if you grow, if you grew up in any type of family system that stands for something, you're not going to change until you have a reason to change. And that typically is because.

And another thing that I struggled with in having such a loving family growing up, if I believe differently than them, am I betraying them? So I had to work through that. Like, I'm not sure my mother would agree, but she would love me unconditionally.

I'm not sure she would agree because she was so Bible driven and scripture driven. But all that to say, if I disagree with them, if I end up not agreeing with how they taught me, am I disrespecting them?

So I had to work through that.

Well, okay, so there's two things. Disrespect. And what was the word that you said before that had to do with loyalty? Am I abandoning them? Am I.

There's a word that you used to describe, wasn't it?

Did I say, did I say disloyal or.

But yeah, I was like, am I being disloyal? Am I, am I something to that nature? And that really struck a chord with me because.

Betraying.

Betraying what I said. Yeah. I feel like I've done a good college. Try it. Studying most of the Christian denominations, the basics of what the belief systems are.

As far as I know, most of.

Them.

Talk about unconditional love, both from God and what we're supposed to have with our family and brothers and sisters.

If unconditional love is a real thing and we are to practice it, and we are practicing it, why on earth would a beautiful young soul and young heart feel that way about the most precious people in their life just because of an authentic piece about them.

That.

They would be betraying?

The reason why I wanted to say that it was maybe more rhetorical for you, because I don't know that, but I'm wanting to keep in mind that, you know, we, we reach a broad audience, especially a lot of people in middle America.

And for that individual who maybe they're married and in the middle of, you know, haven't come out haven't embraced it or that, you know, a youngster that doesn't have the representation. And heck, you and I have talked.

About how church was life.

Like, I mean, like that was. Yeah, right. Especially if you're in a small town, like everything. Yeah.

And so.

I think I wanted to say that to lead to this question that I have for you now.

Having gone through all that you did in the healing process, what would you say to any of the people I just described that have that same fear right now about the potential of abandoning the people that are most important to them?

That's a tough one. And I actually get those questions.

People I am me regularly in those same situations where they feel trapped in a small community, whether it's in a marriage or just in a. A small church situation. Like, how did you do it, Michael? And. And it's so niche. It's so nuanced. Everyone's situation.

I had a loving family that, yeah, I was a little nervous to tell them, but at the end of the day, they just looked back to me, says, michael, we knew. We know. We love you. Not everyone's gonna have that. So how do I tell that person how to proceed when they're not maybe not going to have that support?

Do I tell them, well, we'll just leave everybody in the desk. Go be your true self. I don't know. I don't know. I don't. I don't want to have to.

I don't want to tell that person that they have to leave something behind because you have to come to that relate relation. You have to come to that realization yourself what is worth leaving behind and what is not.

And I have dear friends to this day who have remained closeted their whole life. They're married, they've made a life for themselves because they didn't want to give something up to be their. Their authentic self. And that's fine.

That's. That's the road they chose. But my heart does break when I read the stories of these people that.

Thank you for anyone that's listening that has trusted me with your story. And my heart breaks sometimes because I just wish. I wish I had the answers. But for every person is different.

And for my answer, it was 20 years of soul searching and getting tired of the person that I was or getting tired of what I had to deal with to hide. You know, it was just an evolution. Baby steps. Baby step.

If you were to think about just some.

The band aid. Well, that ripped off.

Yeah. Well, yeah, go ahead and tell me about the bandaid yeah.

His name is Josh Skinner, and the podcast is called Jonah and the Will. And he was coming to Nashville and wanted to interview some people. And Crystal said, would you. You know, he knows who you are. I think he.

He likes Avalon Music back in the day. Would you do his podcast? I'm like, sure, I'd love to. And I had no agenda. I'm like, okay. He's just asked me about the old days.

We'll just talk about some, you know, the 90s. And I sit in that chair, I put on the headphones, we start rolling, and I just had this moment of, I don't care anymore. This needs to.

The record needs to be set straight. And it was all spur of the moment. No forethought, no planning. And he asked one question, and if you listen to the interview, you'll recognize it.

I have.

I have trusted people. I'm not saying that no one knew, but as far as the gp, the general public are people that don't know me.

For me to say it on a public platform, that was the first time.

And so I spent the whole interview talking about the real reason that things happened, that they did, and that the PR was just all bullshit, you know, is.

What was the pr?

The PR was that Michael went on to pursue other musical opportunities. And I'm. Okay, put that.

Sorry, that is much sarcasm in my laugh, because that's not funny.

Well, I was like, okay, put that bow on it. I don't have any control of the narrative you're putting out there, but I let that narrative stay there for years. And then I'm like, nope.

Yeah, I signed an NDA. But you were twisting my arm.

You were saying, you're not going to get a settlement, you're not going to get anything out of us unless you sign this piece of paper saying you won't talk about it. And I'm like, this is my life and I'm going to reclaim it. I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to set the record straight.

Because there are a lot of people out there who need to hear that they are not alone in the prison cell that they put themselves in as well. And so I set the record straight. I said the story was bullshit. This is what happened.

And no offense to you, Josh, I just didn't know anything about your podcast, so I thought, well, how many people listen to a podcast? I don't know. So I'm just like, for the X amount of people that heard it. Great. Let's move on.

Well, one of those people worked for Billboard magazine and he called me the next week and that's when he wanted to do the article. And that's when it had like a, like a week of being viral and it hit all the news outlets like, this is a 20 year old story.

So if you Google my name today, your device is going to throw up. That podcast, the Billboard thing, the people.

The controversy, because that's exactly how. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, but there's also a lot of. And there's going to be so much more good you. Whoa. There's going to be so much.

Is it so much more goodness. So much more goodness. I don't know if that. My English went right out the window, but. So yeah, you're, you know, to steal some words.

Some words for me. Your. Your swan song has yet to be sung. And I feel like it's way you've got many, many songs before the swan.

The last song I did was Everything to Me. And I need there to be something else out there before I die. I don't want the last stuff that I do to be that stuff from 20 years ago.

I have a new story to tell. I have a different way to tell it.

And I have been writing lately and I've surprised myself at what, how much I like what I'm writing because I'm my worst critic. But I realized because I tried to write then I. I tried to write and I have a few credits on Avalon. It's. It's minuscule.

But I realized why I wasn't a good writer because I wasn't writing from a place of authentic authenticity. That's what makes a good writer.

And now that I'm writing with nothing to hide, just telling a story, it's just flowing out and I, I really want to share it with people and so I, I hope to soon.

I've.

I've got about six or seven songs now that I think are worthy of.

I'm one of the lucky few that got to hear one of them, by the way.

So I, I love that one the best. Yeah, it's a, It's a song called Destined to Be. And it came about two things.

I've always loved the quote and I, I tried to chat GPT it to find out who said it, and chatgpt comes back. It's probably an amalgamation of several different people, philosophers down the road.

He wouldn't give me a specific one, but it says, don't be too hard on your former self. He's probably saved your life many times.

And that struck a chord in me because, you know, like I said, I look back on those old videos and those interviews of me and I just ripped myself to shreds. Well, that little guy, that little soft spoken, demure, naive Michael has saved my life many times because I'm still here.

So that just means that every decision that I have made in the past has somehow I'm still here.

The second thing is I was having breakfast with a friend of mine recently and just we were talking about my whole story and blah, blah, blah, where I am, and he texted back about an hour later and he says, I've been thinking about what you said. He says, what if you were not supposed to ride off in the sunset in a successful group?

What if you were supposed to go through all of this so that you could, your story could help other people in the same situation? Maybe that's your destiny. And that's where this song Destined to Be came. It's like the last line is maybe.

I mean, I know I've got to sing it before I can remember the line. It's. But basically it's like you're right where you're destined to be and don't be.

And I love one of the lines I wrote in the first verse was that boy in the mirror has always had your back. So I put those two thoughts together for that. I love that song.

When did you. So we're talking about again, 20 years.

This goes back to me saying we can't go through the whole obviously the 20 years of this phase, that phase, that phase, that phase. But I think one of the biggest themes that I'm curious about is that it's most important that you got there.

But can you pinpoint a place in time where you realized I actually believe I'm no longer vacillating between wondering if. But I believe the boy in the mirror always had my back. And I no longer.

I fully, wholeheartedly no longer doubt any part of the authentic side of all parts of Michael Passens.

That was the biggest litmus test for me, was I wasn't ashamed of who I was anymore. I. I would just. If.

If someone, the old me, if I heard that someone was talking about me behind my back, I would go into pure panic mode, just meltdown. And I finally realized when I would hear those things, I'm like, yeah, I am. I am. And I. I'm good with that.

I'm good with that because only I know what's inside of me. Only I know the feeling it is to be Michael and to be the person that I am. And I honestly, I don't like to be defined by my sexuality.

Yeah, I also love chocolate cake, but people don't go around saying, there goes Michael Passens. He's a chocolate cake eater.

You know, it's like, I don't like being defined by my sexuality, but that's basically how our culture is set up these days. That's your. That's your definition. You're either straight or you're not. You're either conservative or you're liberal.

It's like, you know, there is so many nuances to who we all are, but I am a person. I am a person who is still a person of faith. I may not believe like you, but I'm still a person of faith.

I have not thrown that out, but also, I am a gay man. So there.

I love that you have been able to find a path of faith that so many of us that go through, especially raised in the south, lose. I don't want to say all ability, because I think that everyone still has the capacity to find spirituality and faith.

Yeah, there's a difference in religion and spirituality and faith. I am not religious. I am not religious, but I am spiritual. I'm a person of faith. And my faith right now is based on the fact that.

That I am not going to be so presumptuous as to think I know who God is or the creator. I'm just not going to do it, because that defies everything that you would imagine that a creator should be.

It's like unfathomable and so I'm just like, I'm just going to live every day knowing that I have no idea who this creator is innately, but I'm asking for it to be revealed to me in even the smallest increment. I'll take it.

And if we go to whatever version of the scripture you want to reference, how many times does it talk about wanting the follower to be a seeker, to be, you know?

Well, I, I, I've said in pews more than I haven't. I mean, obviously going to church, but also having a career in a faith based industry.

Yeah.

You hear a lot of people talk. I've sat in pews more than I haven't. And I've heard people talk about who God is. I'm like, where's the guy saying I don't know who God is?

But that's, but my, my heart is open because I think God is a much bigger thing than, well, I mean, than we can ever ask or imagine. It's just like it's, it's, it's just something that I'm leaving myself open to.

And I love that so much because, you know, we all, we, so many of us have had our own journeys. And I was telling you before we started recording, one of my favorite interviews that I ever did was of a, of a quote unquote fallen pastor.

He's very successful and a wonderful, loving human being. And I talked in an interview about how.

That.

He never felt closer to the divine until the absolutes were stripped.

Away, until you stopped trying to define the divine.

And if you take it back to what you and I were, what you were expressing earlier or defining earlier about how just the different iterations of Scripture in our lifetime, in our lifetime, the different, and quite frankly people might argue this but denomination, that's where I was going. Doctrine.

How many? There are hundreds of denominations just in the United States.

But that has also changed.

Just like as you outlined about the tolerating divorce or women speaking in the church or whatever. I mean like civil rights, if, if.

That can change and the words haven't.

Yeah.

What's changing?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Why, why does, why does the divine not get to reveal themselves to us? And that's the thing is that I truly, I'm right there with you.

And I think that if we, we miss out on so much opportunity to connect how we need to, when.

We.

Limit ourselves by saying, oh no, it has to be whatever fits in the box. That, that, yeah, you know.

Right.

How do you. Okay, so I know we, we, we've been talking for a long time. I want to figure out the. Believe me, I had about probably 150 questions for you.

I knew I wasn't going to get to all of them. And we've had a good conversation. Is there something that people don't ask you or haven't asked you before that you wish they would?

That is a good question. I honestly haven't done a lot of interviews. I'm the kind of guy that's glad you're not asking questions. I'm, I'm. I'm kind of a private person.

And you wouldn't think that because I'm kind of divulging a lot of stuff in this interview. But I, when I get in situations like this, I want to tell my story because now I think maybe you can help somebody.

And so I'm more, I'm talking more freely about myself than I ever have because I'm usually historically very private. And so when I get in situations and people are asking me questions, I'm relieved.

And maybe it goes back to that, that self preservation mode from years ago where I just wanted to hide inside myself and just let you see a certain version of me that I thought you would approve of. You know, when I'm around people that.

Are.

Of a mindset from where I came from and you know, I visit with old friends all the time. I love visiting with old friends and people, but it's like they're, they're afraid to ask me about who I am now and what I believe now.

It's like they don't want to have that conversation. And when I sense that I'm not going to bring it up myself because I don't want to put.

I don't want to go into an awkward situation with a dear friend. But sometimes I wish someone would ask me, what do you believe? Now it's like, what is. Where are you with all of this?

I don't get that unless it's in a forum like this where I'm. We've doing some sort of interview. But yes, it's almost like they're afraid of the answer.

Like they don't want to think that Michael believes differently than he used to. But I've challenged pretty much everything that's been taught to me and some of it has stuck, some of it has, but much of it hasn't.

Not to get political, but I want to say that one thing that has cemented me being good with where I am is that I look at certain people in the political arena right now and how they've been embraced by people of faith. And I'm looking at these people through a critical lens. I'm a moderate. I have never gone to the polls and voted one way or the other.

I vote my heart and, you know, it's all over the map sometimes.

So I'm not dedicated to one party, but so I'm looking at these people, what they're saying, what they're doing, and I'm like, wait, you have embraced this person? You've embraced these people. They are part of your sermons, part of your theology.

Now I see billboards in East Tennessee with their pictures painted next to Jesus. But you threw me off the bus.

I gave my whole life diapers to diploma and even after I gave my career, everything to the cause of the faith of the Christian church. And they threw me out at the first hint that I violated a scripture in Deuteronomy.

And so that's what cemented in my mind that I made the right decision to depart from the way that I was brought up. And it's saddening to me, really.

I really do believe with all my heart that if the people that raised me in that small little country church could see what's evolved now, they would be in justice, much dismay, as I am. But that's all I want to say about that. I'm just saying the political climate did have an effect on my belief journey. My.

My journey into just stepping away from a lot of things I was taught well.

And I think to simplify the principle that you're talking about, just quite frankly, is hypocrisy.

I would agree with that because, I mean. I mean, in Jesus's day, he was.

A liberal table flipper.

Table flipper in the church.

Yeah, like. And so.

And so he was more interested in helping the needy than trying to make sure that his nation stayed white, straight, conservative. You know, I think that's what it boils down to. I think there's a certain majority in this country who is afraid of losing their majority status.

And so now we're just looking for ways to prop up that fear with scripture. And it's dismaying. And I just feel like we're going many steps backward. It's scary, but I want my steps that I take to help marginalized people.

I have felt marginalized. I have been marginalized. So I. If there's anything. And I love the women in my family because they really taught me compassion.

They taught me empathy and sympathy and just the way they would even speak to the.

An insignificant person to them, whether it's the person checking them out, whether there's a person in the service industry, whatever, they spoke to them as a human being. And I, that's the way I see people. I see people. Everyone is a human being. No one should be marginalized for no reason, for any reason.

And so what I can do with my own personal experience is maybe help those who, who feel marginalized because of, because they feel similar as, as me.

Absolutely. And continue to work, I almost laughed at an inappropriate time because when you said, yeah, I've been marginalized and I'm like, me too.

We're both like light, light hair, blue eyed, white guys sitting here talking about marginalized, which we have over. I mean, you know, trauma's trauma.

But I do admit wholeheartedly that there are those who have been, there have been atrocities against others that I will never know.

Yes, exactly. And I bring that up to say that there's the two sides of the coin. And I think I see you doing this as well.

And you've been doing this part of your journey, not just using your own story of being marginalized in your own trauma to make a difference and help others that have gone through or are going through the same thing. But the other piece of that is the unending journey of unraveling how we can see other people's marginalization and make an impact in those areas.

Right.

I feel like there's a certain amount of influence that has come because there are people out there who enjoyed my music, still remember the music, still value what I have to say about things. So I want to.

I'm one of them, one of many.

And I appreciate that. And I underestimated that when I went away to hide. I thought everyone just would forget.

And so what made you decide to come back?

Because I was. I go back to that little kid on the piano stool who was plucking out tunes before I knew how to speak. This is something that I was given.

And I finally realized that it would be a bad thing on my part if I let all of this make me throw it away. And so I just want to be true to the thing that was given to me, how it was given to me.

You know, like I said, there are people who have been given really shiny instruments, but this is what was given to me and I want to just use it. I don't want to just go away and hide anymore. And I feel like I've got something to say now.

You do?

Maybe I didn't before, but I feel like I do now.

When you came to Nashville, you had a goal. You were. You were green. The goal was to get signed to a record label.

Yeah.

You're coming back to music. You have a heart, a full heart, a life full of experience, a head full of knowledge.

Do you have some goals for what you want this music to do, aside from not letting your former music be your swan song?

I would love for whoever's interested to know my evolution. And I. I can be more vulnerable in my songwriting than I can in a conversation. So putting it into music is a. Is a way that I can say, look, this is.

This is my journey. This is how I was able to navigate the obstacles I was given. Hopefully this will help you. And I'm writing in a very broad stroke.

I don't want the music to be so personalized that it. That it can't just be interpreted into other people's situations.

Well, I love that you brought that up because. And I cannot. I cannot think of a better way.

I might loop this back around to start off part of our conversation as well, because so much of the time, and I don't think that people realize this. I didn't realize this for such. I'm a storyteller who's focused a lot of my interviews on people from the LGBTQ community.

And the parallels, though, of what we go through and how the struggle, the courage, the fight, the overcoming can be copy and pasted like a template. I don't care who you are. Like when you talk about overcoming that, you don't have to go have gone through the same thing.

You don't have to have been through the same.

You know, the overcoming is universal. Conflicts, universal heartache. That's something that we all can relate to.

Being ousted from a community.

Yeah. But I tell you what, going back to people having to deal with things so much worse than blond haired, blue eyed American boys.

I've been to Africa several times in the past couple of years. I don't post much on Instagram, so the one things I do post are pictures of lions and elephants. And I love that stuff.

But as you may know, East Africa is terribly, terribly. The gay community there is very oppressed with the laws, the national laws that are passed.

And I remember being in one place, we would stay in these tented lodges in the Serengeti, and they would treat us so well. They have hospitality down to an art. Even in the middle of nowhere, it's down to an art.

And we were being waited on hand and foot by these wonderful people. And I could tell that one of the guys was gay. I mean, he wasn't overt. I just had the sense.

And the day we left, he hugged us and he hugged us harder than any of the rest did. And I could just sense the prison that he was in because the laws there would put him in prison or maybe even death.

I'm like, gosh, this guy's world is so different than mine. I thought that I died when I was found out. He could really die if he were to be found doing certain things and in this country that he lives in.

And my heart just broke for him. And I'm not sure that his. That East Africa or any countries like that will ever progress in his lifetime.

That just may be where he is, but I don't know.

It's.

It's.

It's running into people like that and seeing their stories that I. I just moves me and makes me want to. What can I do to. To help somebody in their journey? I might not can do anything but give that guy that hug on my way out of. Of.

Of his life, you know, but. But maybe that was something. I don't know. It just goes back to just showing compassion and empathy and hopefully sharing my song and my music.

People will hear that, see that.

I think that's the biggest thing that we could ever hope for is that something that we do changes somebody's life. Even just from the perspective of. I try and say this at least once in every episode.

If you are listening or watching and you are the only one, or you think you're the only one.

Good.

This is for you. This would all be for you and worth it for Michael and I, if that's the case.

Agree.

I want. I want you to know that you are that valuable and worthy. And I think that, my gosh, when I think about the example that, like, we get to lead, it's.

If we're going to do any good, it has to be the. The one that matters, not the many that matters.

I agree with that. I agree with that very much.

And I see that in everything. Like, that's one of the biggest things I admire about you is that the detail, the one. The one matters so much. You know what I mean by that?

There's a story about the starfish. Have you ever heard the starfish?

In fact, I was thinking about that story as you were saying what you were saying.

I'm gonna say it just because I love it so much and because for anybody who hasn't heard it, so two people like a dad or. I think it's a dad and a daughter walking along the shore. I'm probably gonna butcher this story, but I think you're on.

Yeah.

And the. The little girl is.

There's so many starfish that are.

That are washed up on shore. And this.

The little girl is throwing back, you know, this starfield, you know, one after the other and after that, and there's just hundreds, maybe thousands that are washed up. And he asks you and he's like, why.

Why are you doing.

I mean, there's. You're not. There's no way. You're gonna. You're not gonna get all these. It's not gonna make a difference. And she.

Her response is, well, maybe not to the ones that I can't help, but it made a difference to that one.

Made all the difference in the world to this one.

Yeah.

She throws him in the ocean. Yeah.

Yeah. That's how.

Yeah, I remember that story. That. That's the kind of story that always sticks with you because it's true. And so, yeah, there have been people that I have been their starfish.

And I would like to have my chance at picking up a few starfish. One. At least one.

Heck, yeah. Oh, my goodness. All right, Michael, is there anything that left unsaid that I didn't ask you about that you want to get off your chest and share?

I think this has been a really thorough walkthrough of. Of the journey. I appreciate the opportunity and the platform that you have. A wonderful platform.

Thank you.

So thank you for the invitation.

Absolutely. I'm so honored. Before we leave, do you have a question, a thought provoking question for the next guest?

What is one of the most devastating things your inner voice has ever said to you? Or you could rephrase it like, what is one of the most. Was one of the most healing things your inner voice has ever said to you?

Because sometimes your inner voice can be very negative.

I love those two parts. Can you answer them both for yourself?

The most devastating for me, my inner voice, is that I'm ugly, that I don't sing well, that I'm too old to try anything new. My inner voice can surprise me sometimes by saying something like what? What you say even in your head, has the power to affect reality.

So take it easy, Michael. Think positively. Think about what you want to happen and put it out there.

Instead of putting out what you fear will happen, put out what you want to happen. And that's what I've been doing lately. I want to make some new music. I want to find the love of my life. I'LL put those two things out there.

So we're putting it out there now. You heard it. You heard it here, y'. All. I want that for you, too. Thank you. Michael Passens thank you. This has been such an honor.

Thank you for joining us for this deeply personal conversation. Michael's journey illustrates how confronting painful experiences can lead to freedom, creativity, and renewed purpose.

We hope his story inspires you to examine your own inner voice, challenge the narratives that hold you back, and embrace support when you need it. If this episode moved you, please share.

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And with that, I'll remind you, as always, it's never too late to start loving yourself, and you're always only one decision away from a completely different life.