Join Jeremy Britton and Oleg Fomenko as they dive into the fascinating world of the movement economy and the innovative Sweat app, which rewards users for their physical activity. Oleg shares insights on how Sweatcoin has evolved into a powerful tool that not only incentivizes exercise but also aims to reduce income inequality by offering a way for individuals to earn from their daily movements. The conversation touches on the challenges of verifying genuine activity, the importance of user privacy, and the potential for movement to be valued similarly to attention in the digital economy. They explore the impact of physical health on overall well-being and how the app encourages charitable giving while keeping users engaged. With a blend of humor and thoughtful reflection, this podcast highlights the intersection of fitness, technology, and social good.

Get fit, get paid, and help to improve the world with SweatCoin and SweatWallet

AppStore: https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/sweat-w...

GooglePlay: https://play.google.com/store/apps/de...

Follow Oleg and possibly see some pics of Bear, the Australian Shepherd (not a guarantee :) )

Twitter: https://x.com/sweateconomy

Telegram: https://t.me/sweateconomy

Discord:   / discord

Web: https://sweateconomy.com

Takeaways:

• The evolution of Sweatcoin into Sweat has transformed the concept of physical activity into a valuable asset, allowing users to earn tokens for their movement.
• Oleg Fomenko highlights the importance of creating a movement economy that benefits users directly, contrasting it with the attention economy dominated by major tech companies.
• Verification of user activity is crucial to maintain the integrity of the Sweatcoin system, ensuring users earn tokens through genuine physical efforts.
• The integration of charitable donations into the Sweat ecosystem engages users who wish to contribute to meaningful causes while being physically active.
• With over 170 million users, the Sweat platform has established a community focused on health, fitness, and economic empowerment through movement.
• Oleg emphasizes the need for consumer-focused applications in Web3, moving away from infrastructure-focused projects to create real user value.

Oh, okay.

Sweet.

Recording in progress.

Okay, okay.

Excellent Technology, technology, technology.

So how are you today, mate?

Glorious.

I.

It was raining this morning for me, so I took the puppies for a walk this evening, and they've just had their dinner, so hopefully they'll be quiet.

Well, even if they're not, we can organize a dog fight right here.

You know, I'll get Bear to, you know, kind of join me for a few seconds.

You bring your chaps and, yeah, we'll have a little bit of an interlude.

So you.

You've got an Australian shepherd.

I do have an Australian shepherd.

His name is Bear.

Let me.

Bear, why don't you come and say hello?

Bear.

Bear, where are you?

Yeah, come and say hello.

And when did you get an Australian shepherd?

Because you don't have an Aussie accent.

No, come, come, come say hello.

Yeah.

Oh, that's better.

Yeah, yeah.

No, they're not very well known dogs, but there are already two breeders in Spain and one breeder in Portugal.

And when we saw them, we decided that that is a perfect dog for us.

So, yeah, the rest is history.

We're very happy with Bear.

Bear is a very loving member of a family, very affectionate, very hungry all the time, and he loves only two things, food and kisses.

Like.

And cuddles, of course.

That will.

That's.

Yeah.

So, Barrington, why don't you.

Why don't you.

Why don't you hop, hop, hop?

Yeah, show yourself.

Show yourself.

Yeah.

He'S quite a big one.

Yeah, he's quite a really, really big one.

He's 30 kilos for an Australian shepherd.

Apparently.

That's very big.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, enough kisses.

Enough kisses.

Yeah, I can't.

I can't pick up my two at the moment because they're fighting over.

Fighting over a toy.

That's okay, no worries.

We'll keep the growling.

Keep the growling to a minimum.

So all good.

Well, you've seen him on the photo now.

You've seen him live.

Next thing is for you to pop into Lisbon and for us to go for a walk.

Yeah, Yep, sounds perfect.

Sounds perfect.

Done.

So, all right, we should probably introduce you and wonder why these.

Why these two blokes are chatting about their dogs.

So people on my channel know me.

Jeremy from Boston, coin, also from Krillionaire.com.

oleg Fomenko from Sweatcoin.

We actually covered your Sweatcoin and Sweat Economy.

Sweat Economy Coin is an original Web2 business that you've covered.

And now we gone all in on web 3.

Yeah, we've decided that we are creating separate business and separate token.

And that's how Sweat and Sweat Wallet were born.

And that's the part of the business that I'm leading now.

Okay, okay, so what about people who have the original sweatcoin?

What happens to those guys?

Nothing.

And once TGE was done, we made the minting difficulty or the, you know, basically the amount of step that is required to mint one sweat float and move away from sweatcoin.

So it's the same idea as bitcoin halving, but just happening in real time gradually and is linked to the total amount of physical activity or calories burned by humanity.

So the more people walk, the higher the minting difficulty.

Very much the same as bitcoin having.

Halving, halving, halving, halving.

You know, increasing marginal cost of production typically results in a positive impact on value of that asset.

That's basic economic theory that we used.

Yeah, I mean, economic theory would suggest that every time the Bitcoin's new suppliers are that the price of bitcoin doubles.

But obviously you and I have seen cycles where it's gone up, you know, 500% and 600%.

Exactly, exactly.

You know, kind of, that's, that's very much the theory.

So let's say I'm one of these people who likes to get in my 10,000 steps for the day.

So previously I would have got 10 sweat coins.

Now I'm getting maybe one, one and a half of the new token, so.

Exactly.

It's harder to earn, but the price is obviously going to increasing.

Yeah, I mean, sweatcoin is a centralized currency.

It's not traded on exchanges.

It doesn't really have a price or, you know, kind of value.

Sweat is on 25 different exchanges and it does have price.

So that's fundamentally the difference.

And you can earn both because we view with coin as a kind of an in game currency in sweat.

Inside sweatcoin there is a marketplace.

You can continue, you know, kind of buying stuff on the marketplaces, interact with our partners, et cetera and in parallel you can earn sweat but it is managed and the utility for it exists in sweat Wallet.

So we haven't really pulled together health and fitness effectively Pedometer benefits and the banking application because when we were doing our research, users were finding it a little bit confusing to combine pedometer with a, you know, fintech with a banking application.

So we've decided that we will keep them separate at least for now as the concept of movement economy and the value of movement is becoming kind of universally accepted.

And I'm sure that we'll talk about it a little bit more later, then maybe we'll bring them together.

But it's, you know, at this stage we don't see it as a necessity.

When you guys launched a few years ago, you basically had no competitors in the marketplace.

Now there's a few tokens which are, you know, moved to earn.

So yeah, how are you keeping up and in front of the competitors?

We actually used this time wisely and we understood that movement is a true valuable commodity, especially for people like they perceive foot coins and now sweat as something of value.

And we also figured out business model that made sweatcoin profitable for a number of years.

And even sweat and sweat wallet are on the path to becoming profitable within next 12 to 18 months.

So.

So we use this experience to build a completely different proposition than most of other move to earn projects have, you know, kind of launched with in the last couple of years.

Specifically we do not charge you at the door.

You know, kind of most of these projects would charge you for an NFT or for something.

So first of all that would put a significant barrier to entry because some of these NFTs were thousand dollars plus and very, very few people around the world can actually pay that amount of money to play a game.

So the audience addressable market was a lot lower.

And the second thing is the NFT sales for most of these businesses was the only revenue stream.

But the reason why people paid for those NFTs at the door was because of the promise that they will be able to earn more once inside.

But if the only revenue Stream is selling NFTs then how can you earn more than you paid at the door?

It has to be an NFT that is sold to the user trying to get in after you that creates this Ponzi Dynamics, which is fantastic for a period of time, but as soon as the queue at the door to buy those NFTs dwindles, all of a sudden everyone inside is stopping to earn.

And all of a sudden the project enters death spiral, which is extremely difficult to exit.

Now, in our case, we don't charge you anything at the door.

The app is free, it works across all the Androids and Apple phones or iPhones, and we are effectively tracking your movement, verifying your movement, and we are giving you rewards for every step you take.

Not at the magnitude that some of the competitors at the peak of the hype cycle were giving, but it is infinitely more than zero, which is what people earn right now for being physically active.

And we know that the value of physical activity when we ask our users, do you consider current price of an active day?

And you know a lot of people, and you refer to it, a lot of people know that active days, 10,000 steps.

So that's the metric that we keep as a North Star for ourselves.

We want to make an active day of human life.

Oh, hello.

Oh, yeah, that is a very cute face.

Sorry, I can't lick my nose.

I don't have a tongue like, you know, that long.

But, you know, he's very cute, man.

Barry, that was another doggy.

No, he's not.

You know, I know, I'm just stretching on the floor.

Yeah, enough interaction.

We've seen a lot of those NFTs.

Like, we never bought into NFTs because they've got no utility.

I couldn't see how they'd make money.

And yeah, obviously 12 months later they dropped by 99%.

So there's other sort of tokens out there that also don't do anything.

So not just the NFTs, but there's meme coins like Pepe and Doge and that sort of stuff.

What's your personal view on those?

Look, I.

I think I have many views from different angles.

Like, you know, there is distrust in me into meme coins because of the fact that you just named that.

They have no inherent kind of emotional value to me.

I don't understand what underpins them neither.

Most of them offer me any utility.

Right.

So there is no use to them other than buying and selling.

And I'm a builder, I like to understand how things work.

You know, I use apps, I use technology.

I want to know, what does it do?

What does it do for Me, what problems does it solve?

And if it doesn't, then I know that it's not going to work in the long term.

And we've seen this hype cycles and, you know, kind of lots and lots of things.

I mean, do you remember the.

What, fidget spinners?

Yeah, like, it's, you know, it's a.

It's a hype cycle because we do these things even with physical objects.

I remember everyone had fidget spinners right now, you know, kind of, you don't see them.

So for me, the Meme coin is a fidget spinner of this cycle.

But there is something interesting there which is positive, and I view it as positive, which is for years and years and years, all the conversations, or most of the conversations were around layer ones, layer twos, so chains, blockchains and gas tokens of those chains, and then ecosystems built on those chains.

And very seldomly was it about an asset or a DAPP that was doing something else than being effectively a backbone of storing and transferring assets.

Meme coins have created focus on an asset as opposed to chain, because people kind of go, oh, bonk.

You know, I want bonk.

They're not going like, oh, I'm going to go to Solana and I'm going to play with meme coins.

And I see that as a positive thing because we need to start abstracting ourselves from the layer of chains and infrastructure into the layer of assets.

Army coins, the right asset for the future?

I don't believe so.

They might be, but my bet is not there.

That's why I don't play with them.

That's why I don't own any at the moment.

But I feel that for users, it is a lot more interesting to play with assets as opposed to having to make a choice of what island or what chain you're playing on and then locking themselves just in that ecosystem.

We haven't bought any Meme Coins, but we do enjoy the fact that when a new Meme Coin comes out, it generates a lot of traffic for the underlying chain and that's where we buy the infrastructure.

So we're making money.

Doesn't matter which coin is popular this week, doesn't matter the fact that it does nothing.

We can still make money.

Very true, very true.

Do you think I.

Sorry, no, no, go ahead.

I was gonna say, do you think there's people out there making extra money from.

From their sweat token?

Because if I was particularly active and going for runs every day, or, you know, if I was walking from my job, then I could Get a lot of sweat tokens.

I could actually sell those on the market, or I could buy some of the things, like you've got iPhones and fancy shoes and all sorts of stuff.

I could buy those and resell those for cash, right?

Yes.

And some people used to do that, but nobody's doing it right now.

For a very simple reason that actually if you internalize or if you understand that movement has value, it is very, very difficult to accept that the current price of an active day, which is roughly 1.2 cents, is fair.

And people are saying that, look, the market is actually underpricing and underpricing significantly my physical activity.

So rather than selling sweat, people hold and people put them into what we call grove jars that are extremely popular in sweat wallet, where we pay annual yield using profits from the business or revenues that business generates.

So the yield is not coming out of treasury, the yield is coming out of the revenues that we generate as a business.

And more than billion sweat has been put already into grow jars.

So people see an arbitrage.

Because I alluded to this, unlike most tokens, sweat actually has a very interesting difference, which is people intuitively feel it has non zero value because they sweated over it, because they had to move for it.

Most of the time when you receive tokens as an airdrop, you don't perceive them inherently valuable.

And that's why very frequently projects end up having everything sold all the way down to zero.

Because if you get something for free, any price is good enough, Right?

In our case, people can go and sell sweat on exchanges, but they don't, because, you know, when we ask them why, they're like, it's ludicrously underpriced.

Because you know what, There is no way that an active day is worth 1.2 cents.

And that gave us a very interesting idea to go to academics around the world that are well known for doing work around benefits of physical activity, who published papers that basically talk about increased productivity, increased lifespan, health span, kind of impact on your metabolism and absenteeism.

So there is plethora of academic work that, you know, kind of describes the benefits of physical activity.

But there was never ever academic research, especially meta research that we've done now asking these academics, can you turn it into economic value?

Can you turn this into cash, into dollar value?

And these guys went like, it's weird, nobody ever asked us this question, but we can actually answer it.

And we spent $60,000 on academic grants, we engaged two academic institutions and one think tank, and they have done this Tremendous work and published three papers with different estimates that we have now consolidated.

And we're going to be announcing final results on 17 September in Singapore.

And I would be more than happy to have, you know, kind of to, to, to shoot you the, you know, the press release and the exact numbers the team will shoot me if I, you know, kind of give you, give you those numbers.

But we're talking about orders and orders of magnitude higher than 1.2 cents that market is paying right now.

Because if you start thinking about it and academics did, you know there is, there are a lot of utilities in there, even transport utility, you know, especially in big cities, you know, public transport, car.

If you start comparing the speed with which you drive in a big city versus walking, you realize that very frequently you would get there faster on foot than in a traffic jam in a car.

And you would be saving on petrol, saving on car amortization and you'll be having positive impact on the environment.

Then there is healthcare.

You know, if you're physically active, you're fit, you're going to live longer, you're going to be economically active for longer, you will end up creating more jobs or jobs for longer and you're going to pay more taxes.

So the economic value of physical activity to different parties is absolutely immense.

And we're now starting to have the actual numbers, the, you know, kind of the dollars and cents, how much your 10,000 steps are worth.

And as I said, on 17th of September we'll announce the, you know, kind of all the different data points and the aggregate value.

And we're also going to announce the winner because we run 150,000 people crowdsourcing study for one of the academic institutions inside our app where people were estimating the value of an active day.

And that I can say the median number came out as $6.20.

Wow.

It's amazing.

Exactly.

We were like, oh, wow.

But actually, if you're starting to think that 20 years ago we were talking about attention as something valuable, but we didn't know the value of it.

Now we do and everyone agrees that physical activity has value, but we don't know the price yet.

You know, it is reasonable to assume that if we build $7 trillion economy around attention, attention economy we call it, and everyone kind of knows what it is, then why don't we have movement economy worth trillions of dollars and I Hope not in 20 years, but a lot faster?

Because we have blockchain, we have tools that allow us to tokenize this physical activity and power all of these academic, sorry, all of these value exchanges, a lot faster without creating the infrastructure that we have to spend 20 years building around attention.

It's amazing when they quantify these things.

I've got a friend who's a Tibetan Buddhist monk and he wants everyone to meditate.

And he's going around to prisons and saying, you know, if you teach the guys to meditate, then they won't be so aggressive.

And he's going to Wall street and saying, if you teach the guys to meditate, they'll be better traders and they'll be less stressed.

And people laughed at him at first until the academic studies came out and they went, yeah, it actually decreases prison violence by 25%, increases the Wall street traders effectiveness by 15%.

Now all of a sudden all of these businesses are paying people to meditate and putting a dollar figure on because it actually helps the economy.

And obviously, as you're saying, like, it's not not just the health benefits, it's the longer lines, the more participation in the economy, less stress.

You know, I imagine there'd be less depression and mental illness and things like that.

Absolutely.

Mental health is one of the aspects, especially if you don't jump on treadmill, but you go for a walk outside and instead of a ceiling, you have sky above your head.

I mean, we saw what happened in the pandemic when people didn't leave the house.

You could, you could run on the treadmill all day long, but people were going crazy and getting depressed because they couldn't get outside.

So yeah, absolutely.

Cabin fever is, is real though.

Yeah, we have, you know, kind of this unique element which is what is perceived as valuable inherently because, you know, can you, you know, you don't need to think hard.

You understand that it's a non zero thing.

And then we also have utility.

Typically most tokens don't have that.

So sort of intuitive inherent perception of value and they operate only within utility space.

We have both.

And actually a little bit of historical excurs because I do love my history.

Historically, humanity have first acknowledged the value of asset and then added utility.

So let's take the most obvious one, gold.

Wherever you go around the world, you find the royalty, you know, kind of burials, and there would be gold jewelry on them.

You know, it's a metal that is highly pliable, it's a color of the sun that does not corrode and extremely rare.

And first it was used as a sign of wealth and seniority in the society.

And only then did we figure out that if we split it into equal chunks.

This could be an exchange of value.

So first we found something and we made something valuable in the eyes of people.

Then we added utility and very frequently tokens.

Now missing this first bit.

And I feel that we're blessed because we're using an activity that is inherently valuable, that people understand as valuable.

And it gives sweat this kind of something or some value that is helping us to propel us forward.

Because people are not taking every step and then immediately selling, but they're going, shit, this is worth a lot more.

I'm going to hold onto it because over time it certainly will appreciate and they are keeping close to themselves rather than selling.

Yeah, I've just got my naughty brain in for a moment.

Is there a way for people to try and trick the system?

Like if I had a pedometer on my hand, I could attach it to a ceiling fan, for example, and spin it around.

Is there ways that you can make sure people aren't getting their sweat coin without doing any exercise?

Yeah, look, this is one of the other reasons why a lot of our competitors did not make their businesses successful because they were not paying enough attention to verification and psychology works like that.

If you install one of those apps and then you shake the phone and it counts steps and it issues tokens, then you immediately have created in my mind an understanding that this stuff is worthless.

And if there is competition in it, like leaderboards, who walks a lot, that immediately got discredited because I think that people above me just have more time to take the phone or as you said, put it on the fan or.

Well, there is a whole website that's called Unfit Bits.com that teaches you how to screw with your phone or your wearable to believe that you're active.

Putting it on the metronome, putting it on the drill, on the fan, ceiling fan.

We have some villages where, you know, people reported putting bunch of phones on the rope and rotating them over the head.

In first world, people very frequently put the phone on the dog and let dog run in the park, or put their phone in a dishwasher because, you know, you know, or.

Or tumble dryer, you know, those shake like crazy.

So all of that and a lot more we basically had to deal with.

We have a whole team called fraud detection team.

And they're not busy tracking transactions and financial flows.

They're actually busy constantly fighting the war of attrition.

Because people constantly try to invent new ways of trying to screw with our verification system, which works at three different levels.

But as soon as Anything out of ordinary happens that immediately flags certain patterns and team makes decision is it genuine or is it not?

And the system is constantly improving.

Do we have some fraud?

Yes.

It's like kind of printed currency.

Is there some level of fraud?

Yes.

Is it high?

Absolutely not.

Because we are seeing these things emerging and as soon as anything emerges that is slightly out of ordinary, we can immediately squash it.

And that scale, because we have 170 million users, we have 10 years of experience, we now really know how to make it work.

And at scale, you know, with concurrent millions of users reporting their data.

Very cool.

I couldn't see how many times the app has been downloaded, but I see the reviews.

250,000.

It's more than 200.

More than 200 million times for Sweatcoin and for Sweat wallet, probably around 20 million.

It seems to be a disproportionate number of Android users.

About 10 times as many Android users as Apple users.

That's correct.

Because if you're starting to go global, you know, kind of outside of first world countries, you know, Apple would have a very big share in us, Europe and in handful of Asian countries.

But if you go outside of these islands of wealth, Android is going to be dominating.

I mean look at India, it's going to be 90 something percent Android and we operate on both platforms and you know, can, if you look at population of the world, Android would be dominating.

And that's why Android is probably about three times bigger than iOS for us if we're looking at users.

Now I want to ask you a very serious question so you can take off your glasses for a moment.

Okay, Sounds like you're going to punch me.

So the question is, ole.

Does it help your business or does it hinder your business?

The fact that you look like Vladimir Putin?

It certainly is a topic of multiple conversations and I normally turn it into an absolute piss take because if people, if people tell me this and sometimes it happens, I, you know, can I do take my glasses off?

And I kind of go, I'll tell my uncle that you said hi.

And people don't know how to react.

And it's one of those moments where like is he taking pistol?

Is it, is it, is it true?

And I'm like, no, no, I'm screwing with you.

It's, you know what, it's neither nor because thankfully, thankfully not everyone is kind of noticing that.

And I far prefer when people kind of go, no, no, no, no, no, he's more like Daniel Craig.

You know, I'm like, yeah, that's you know, I, I far prefer that comparison.

Okay, fair enough, fair enough.

We, we'll note that.

And by the way, we are not in Russia.

So sweatcoin, neither Sweatcoin or Sweat Wallet have been launch and for a very simple reason, we are very precious about user data.

All of our data centers and data storages are actually based in Europe where we have GDPR framework, which is the most draconian privacy protecting framework in the world.

And we're not active in Russia because at our scale, that would mean that we would actually need to do a lot of very complicated technological work to store all the data of Russian users on the territory of Russia.

And first of all, it is extremely difficult and expensive to, you know, to do this undertaking.

Geo sharding or geographical sharding is not a trivial thing and only very, very big enterprises do that.

But the second thing is we do not want to store data in jurisdictions where, you know, kind of people can try and potentially will try to gain access to detailed data for, you know, kind of for the reasons that we are not necessarily sharing.

Right.

So that's why we've excluded for now Russia and China from countries where we operate.

These are the only two big countries.

I mean, there is North Korea and, you know, a couple of others, but Russia and China have been largely because of the crypto, climate crypto regulation and data protection laws.

Excellent.

So anybody who's watching this from Russia, China or North Korea, you won't be able to get Sweatcoin, but you probably also won't be able to watch YouTube.

So no big deal.

So I'm sorry, the world is moving on and hopefully in two years time we are going to be there.

I really do sincerely hope I'll put my glasses on.

Thank you back.

It's like Superman.

You're a totally different bloke now.

So another serious question.

So obviously people who walk, people who are active, they get the sweat token.

They can buy, you know, fancy shoes, they can buy iPhones, they can buy AirPods, that sort of stuff.

But you've also got a big charitable where people can actually donate charitable corpses.

So how important is that to you, to have that front and center?

Look, the.

Sorry, I'm just kind of gathering my thoughts and I wanted to give a very linear answer, but I'm actually going to take two steps back.

The audience that we see fundamentally, and there's not, you know, kind of generalization, but you can put people into two different groups, people who are seeking advantage and benefit for themselves, and then there is a smaller Group that have already achieved certain result.

And they are very motivated and very interested in the idea of being able to change somebody else's life by being physically active.

So these people are already engaged with charitable causes and for them, the idea is I can do something good for myself and be more active, healthier and fitter and make somebody else's life by this action better is extremely motivating and extremely engaging.

And this is very, very big in the UK and some European countries and in the US and we see huge number of people that potentially would not be engaged by getting, at the moment 1.2 cents for being active.

But you know what, they are very much engaged to, to donate and give this to charity and charitable causes because, you know, kind of it works good for them and it helps others.

And we worked already with dozens and dozens of charities all around the world.

And, you know, can.

The interesting thing that it's not just donations that matter, but the amount of attention that these charities get because we can give them huge amount of exposure.

And very often people would, you know, can really get into the cause and learn about the charity and donate to them directly beyond the physical activity that goes by us.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, at the end of the day, there's only so many fancy shoes and iPads that you, that you can have for yourself.

But being able to give that away, that's very true.

There's unlimited amounts of money that you can give away and unlimited amounts of effort.

So for.

Not everybody's got the chance to, to go and volunteer in Sub Saharan Africa and teach English to villages.

But obviously going for a walk and donating my effort, what makes you feel good, it gives you the good feeling on top of the good feeling you got from going for a walk.

So love it, love it.

No, absolutely, absolutely.

I definitely engage with that and you know, some of the causes, absolutely phenomenal.

So, yeah, give it a go.

Make sure that you don't sit on your sweat coins because, you know, this lives in a sweat coin application.

But if you don't find something that you fancy for yourself, be good and help others.

Yeah, beautiful.

Beautiful.

So apart from the sweat token, you, you've been in the game now for about 10 years building, building projects.

So based on what you've seen in the last 10 years, what do you.

See going forward for web3deep question.

So that would probably be like 13 years by now that I am really tracking crypto and web3.

And there is one thing that strikes me right now as a, you know, kind of looming change.

We are in an infrastructure bubble.

We have more than 1,000 chains, layer one, layer twos, layer threes, level 64 in existence.

And there are many more coming every day.

And there are a lot in development.

There is no week passes when I am not approached by a chain saying, you're building on near.

What would it take for you to move from near to our chain?

We're amazing, high throughput, this and that.

And I see some projects building their own chains.

It seems to be the kind of the way to raise money.

And it is the easiest thing now still to raise money if you're building layer one, layer two, layer three, with some sort of differentiation and unique selling proposition.

But if you're starting to look at Dapps, decentralized apps that have actual users and, you know, kind of provide service to users that are built on these rails, then you realize that there is less than 600 of these that have any meaningful number of users.

Meaningful, I'm defining, as you know, more than a thousand users per day.

And that means that we have 1,000 rail companies competing for 600 carriages to run on them.

That is crazy, right?

This is overproduction of infrastructure and massive underinvestment into consumer crypto.

And this is the biggest shift that is coming in web three.

Is it going to happen within next three months, six months, nine months or 12 months?

I don't know, but it is definitely coming.

We've seen it before pretty much in every single industry that, you know, you can name.

Sun Microsystems, you probably, you know, you might remember the name.

Cisco was one of the biggest companies in the world.

Jupiter networks, data centers were built, pipes were laid all around the world, connecting continents.

And that's where the money went.

What's coming?

And consumer Internet was born.

And all the focus and attention for the Next pretty much 15 years shifted from various different infrastructure projects to one success metric, active users.

And the interesting thing for capital allocators like yourselves and your clients, the biggest chunk of money or the money that were ultimately made on the Internet were not made on infrastructure investment.

They ended up being made on consumer Internet.

Because quite a lot of the infrastructure that was built ended up being bought at a discount by Google's and Facebook's.

Because when you build infrastructure without use case in mind, or specific use case in mind, you cannot foresee every element that needs to be built into it.

For example, Facebook had to solve in their data centers completely different problem of huge concurrent volume, requesting the same information from different parts of the world.

They ended up having to build their own data centers because they needed to deploy architecture that nobody thought about or built because they were building infrastructure for hypothetical use cases and Facebook's real use case did not work on the infrastructure that existed.

That's what I foresee happening.

We are going to shift completely away from infrastructure premium, which we have right now, to infrastructure discount and capital allocators are going to be chasing big ideas that will be solving problem for the next billion people.

And even those capital allocators that have invested handover fees into infrastructure will have to follow suit.

Because if they want that infrastructure to survive, they need users on it, they need dapps on it, and they will need to invest and bring those dapps to build on those chains so that they actually see usage and have hope of being one of those few chains that will be powering Web3 in the long run.

Because we certainly not going to have thousand chains.

It's probably going to be very much like in financial world.

You know, you have fast payments bags, Swift and few other standard networks, but you don't have thousand different networks for transferring money.

That's exactly how it's going to work in Web3 in the future.

So the trick is to pick the winners, right?

You know, it's like Internet.

It's not.

The trick is not to pick the winners.

The trick is to pick founders and founding teams that know how to build products that solve real world problems.

And that is slightly different from teams that build layer ones and layer twos.

Because in infrastructure it is very frequently all about technology or largely about technology.

When you are starting to build consumer products, you need to have more balanced team with people who are really focused on the user or consumer or customer, depending on, you know, kind of are you focusing on individuals or small businesses.

Right.

So if you're purely technological, it's very difficult to, you know, kind of to do all of those interviews and really understand if you have achieved product market fit.

And you also need to have sense of beauty in that team because if you're building products for the next billion people, it cannot have an interface of existing Web3 products that, you know, kind of frankly look like thin, you know.

But it's okay because if you, if you there with significant amount of cash and you are making money out of, you don't care how it looks, but if you're building product for the next billion people, you're not going to be generating 900% yield and you will actually have to build something beautiful, something simple.

So all of a sudden teams will be a lot more about UX design and technology rather than just tech, tech, tech.

And I think another thing that going to see is we will see a lot more people talking about problems and active users rather than ideas and tvl.

And it sounds trivial and simple, but actually it's a significant kind of shift in sort of people's minds because one of the biggest barriers to mass adoption that we have right now is even if you have a business plan to build, I don't know, whatever for the next billion people, as you're raising money, if you're raising money slowly but surely you will end up being convinced that your success metric is tdl.

And what happens in that moment you realize, I actually don't mix, don't need next billion people to, to hit my TVL target.

So all I have to do is to make 10 phone calls to few whales and convince them to bring their liquidity from that protocol, that protocol, that protocol and that protocol.

And all of a sudden you realize that the product that you need to build is exactly the same product that they're using right now.

Parity match, including vocabulary and ideally even looks the same way, just gives them potentially high yield or higher, you know, kind of collateral percentage, you know, whatever.

And all of a sudden you end up building product that already exists, just pays more to whales.

They bring in your their liquidity.

You hit your TVL target.

But your whole idea and the business plan of building products for the next billion people has just one done has gone down the drain because next billion people is not going to be able to use the product that you build for these 10 whales.

So sometimes just wrong success metric leads you down the blind alley that actually probably have stopped quite a lot of projects that had an idea that could attract next billion people, but they couldn't because they ended up building for crypto natives and therefore replicating what is out that.

Yeah, true, true.

There's a lot, there's a lot of jargon, there's a lot of catering for the inside Circle the old preaching to the choir.

And obviously it benefits everybody, whether you've been holding for 13 years or 13 minutes.

It benefits everybody when we get massive mass adoption.

So we need to make crypto safe and simple and friendly and easy for other people to get into.

So I love it.

No, absolutely.

And we had a conversation with the team yesterday about, do you remember?

15, 16, 17, 18.

Everyone was talking about this is a financial inclusion, the unbanked, the, you know, kind of, the, you know, kind of creation of a new democratic financial system that has no borders and boundaries.

For some reason, everyone completely forgot about it.

It just sort of doesn't exist.

And if you're focusing on tvl, you can't because, you know, can you all of a sudden become uninterested in this next billion people that probably have $5 to their soul?

Because that makes it very difficult to hit your TVL targets.

But it's actually a good goal.

You know, a lot of people in Africa, where I'm traveling periodically, they are unbanked because they cannot open a bank account because they have $5 to their soul.

And bank cannot justify it even financially to open an account because, you know, kind of, it doesn't make economic sense.

Yeah, we can.

We are a free app that is allowing people to earn by moving their feet.

Our cost to serve is completely different and we are creating whole new asset class.

By making their physical activity valuable, though, we can really bring next billion people into not just Web3 Financial World, but into traditional financial world because traditional financial world doesn't have a cost structure or ability to kind of cater to these people.

So I really am excited long term about consumer crypto and building for the next billion people and solving real problems as opposed to imaginary, I don't know, problems that, you know, quite a lot of the, you know, especially recent rivals in the infrastructure world are solving.

I can see a sense of decreasing income inequality as well because it's mostly the fat Westerners who need to exercise, who need to get their 10,000 steps a day and you know, they can, they can donate to the charitable causes and you've got the, the other people, the unbanked people and the developing nations where a lot of them do need, they don't need to lose the weight, but they do need to actually walk a lot in order to do their jobs, things like that.

So it's taking money from the rich and giving to the poor.

You're like Robin Hood.

Okay?

Robin Hood looking like Putin.

I think that there is a comedy.

There somewhere and making Everybody thin and fit and gorgeous at the same time.

So, yeah, absolutely beautiful.

And wealth, that's the next, you know, range.

Robin Hood stuff.

Yeah, well, no wealth without your health, mate.

Right, I agree, yes.

No wealth can buy health.

So health is wealthy.

Yeah, yeah.

And as you say, you're making individuals fitter, but you're also serving the larger economy by reducing sick day, reducing stress, all these different things that we mentioned earlier on in the conversation.

So.

But we're just out of time, absolutely.

Convinced that our physical activity will be a trillions and trillions of dollars in size economy.

We just need to internalize this and you know, kind of do what attention or kind of put that same thinking or same realization that we put into attention about, you know, 20 years ago and you know, voila, attention economy is born.

I'm sure that movement economy is being born right now and I want to bring it forward as fast as possible because actually one of the things, if I may cover one of the things that really pisses me off in attention economy is because it is actually not an economy.

It's a bit of a robbery because Google and Facebook take your attention and sell it to the highest bidder and put all the money into their pocket and all you get is two gigs of free storage with your Gmail.

That's not a really good deal.

You're not the primary beneficiary of that value that you are creating.

So I would like to have movement economy where it's not one company that, you know, kind of takes all the value and that's why we're tokenizing physical activity and giving it to you.

With us only taking tiny sliver to facilitate the whole network rather than other way around somebody taking the whole thing and given a tiny little sliver to just maintain attention.

So we believe that movement economy is going to work better and is going to bring a lot more change if you benefit from your physical activity, because that's going to make you even more active and even more active so that, you know, kind of the impact is absolutely the highest.

As opposed to creating another big tech segment that is then trying to influence the world and, you know, influence elections and, you know, kind of do all of the stuff that we're hearing them doing.

Obviously by Facebook and Google taking all of our data and selling it, the founders of those companies became multi billionaires.

So you're talking much more benevolent aims here.

You're going to enrich the entire world.

But we got to make sure that you make a quit as well.

I mean, look, everyone needs to make a quid.

But even with regards to data, our long term plan is to partner with a data union and allow you to make a decision if you want to open your data to somebody.

We will never do that on our user's behalf because as I said, you know, we value privacy and we also based in Europe so you know, can we just not going to even touch it.

But we do believe that long term there is value in data but you need to benefit from it, not us.

Lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely.

So we've got to wrap up.

Thank you.

I know you've got to get on with your day.

It's morning.

Absolutely.

Thank you very much, Jeremy.

Morning in Lisbon and nighttime in Brisbane.

But before we go, just tell people how they can find the Sweat app on the App Store in the Play Store and also the website.

Yeah, yeah.

So Web three is Sweat Wallet, both App Store and Google Play.

Sweat Economy.com is a website.

You can find me and Sweat Economy on Twitter.

Sweat Economy.

And I am Oleg Underscore Fem Telegram.

You know we have huge community discord.

Both of those are Sweat Economy.

So if you want to play web two and the pedometer, it's Sweatcoin.

So Sweatcoin.com website and Sweatcoin app on app Store and Google Play.

Fantastic.

Thank you very much.

You've inspired me to get out and go for another walk with puppies.

So yeah.

The charmers.

And yeah, we'll drop those links in the comments.

Thank you very much.

Olive for me from sweatcoin, Jeremy Britton.

Thank you very much for having me and look forward to hopefully running to you at another conference soon.

Have a very good one.

Cheers.

Cheers.

Bye.