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Founder Series: Mastering the dance of growth and leadership
Episode 373rd May 2024 • Reimagining Work From Within • Within People
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In this episode, Jeff chats with Debbie Goodman, the founder of Jackhammer. Together, they explore her unique journey as a trailblazer in the executive search industry while also pursuing her passion for dance.

Debbie opens up about the challenges of maintaining an international company culture and shares personal insights on the importance of personal fulfilment in achieving professional success. 

This episode is packed with lessons on adaptability, leadership, and the art of seizing opportunities to enrich both personal and professional life.

Learn all about Within People and the work we do here.

Learn more about Debbie and her podcast Revolutionising Leadership here

Get in touch with Jack Hammer here.

Transcripts

Jeff Melnyk:

Hey everyone, this is Jeff from Within.

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Last year we started thinking

about how founders face different

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challenges as leaders in business.

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As a coach of founders and CEOs,

I noticed similar themes emerge

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in my work with executives.

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Letting go, leaning in, knowing your

imposter and knowing when to quit, and

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how to continue the drive to win when

you don't have much left in the tank.

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So we started the Founders Series

as part of Reimagining Work From

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Within, a place to speak openly with

leaders about what really goes on

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behind the scenes when you have so

much invested in what you've created.

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I met Debbie Goodman on one of

my very first trips to South

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Africa almost a decade ago.

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We were just getting within up and

running in Cape Town, and Debbie was

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already a force in the business community

there with her business Jackhammer.

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We found we were aligned in thinking

around creativity, how the workplace was

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changing, and the challenges of leading

in an ever shifting business environment.

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Both Debbie and I moved to

California around the pandemic.

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I truly admire her tenacity, her ability

to seek out new opportunities and put her

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own spin on them, and how she's continuing

to grow Jackhammer through empowering her

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teams from afar, giving her the time and

space to do the things that fuel her joy.

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We caught up recently for this

edition of the Founders Series.

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I hope this conversation

sparks some thoughts about

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how letting go helps you grow.

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Debbie, it is truly an honor to have

you on Reimagining Work From Within.

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I've been wanting to have this

conversation for quite some time

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with you, and as part of the Founders

Series, I feel like now I can really

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get into the grips of what it means

to be Debbie and into your story.

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I think you've got countless

lessons to share with our listeners.

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And you've certainly been like

a semi mentor to me, because I

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think I come to you sometimes

with a little bit of a quandary.

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And I don't go like, Hey, Debbie, here's

the thing as a founder, I am struggling

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with, but I'd rather be like, let's have

a coffee and then something will emerge.

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So I've always valued your wisdom.

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So, so just thank you so much for,

for being, being on the show today.

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You're, you're home in LA at the moment.

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You just got back from,

from some time in Cape Town.

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah,

I'm in Manhattan beach.

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Let's just clarify.

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It's not quite LA.

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Apologies to our

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Jeff Melnyk: SoCal listeners.

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Debbie Goodman: Get the facts

straight, but yeah, it was after

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two weeks in my hometown, Cape Town,

and yeah, settling back into the

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groove of working at my dining table.

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Jeff Melnyk: Oof.

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But this is the best time

of year to go to Cape Town,

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Debbie Goodman: isn't it?

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Jeff Melnyk: This is the time, so you were

there throughout sort of Feb and March?

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah, just

a couple of weeks in Feb.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That is prime.

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Prime Cape Town time, isn't it?

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah.

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It's an ama actually any time's an

amazing time to be in Cape Town.

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So yeah, I got my Cape Town, filled

my cup and now back in my other home.

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Jeff Melnyk: So tell us a little

bit about your story as a founder,

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cause you, you are from Cape Town.

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You started your business in Cape Town.

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You now live in Southern California.

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That's been a journey that's

taken some time, but what,

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how did you start Cape Town?

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Jack Hammer, and I don't even

know this, was Jack Hammer

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your first business as well?

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Because you've been, you've,

you've had Jack Hammer, as long

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as I've known, you were one of our

first clients at Within as well.

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So our history goes way back, but

how did it all get started for you?

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Debbie Goodman: Well, I think a

lot of my business career has just

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been one sort of try something new

accident after the other, really.

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So my origin story actually is that I

am, I used to be a professional dancer,

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choreographer and had had expected that

that was going to be my life forever

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until eventually it came to a bit of

a grinding halt in my late twenties.

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I had I had finished my law degree.

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I was at a point in my head, which

I was doing part time whilst I was

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dancing professionally full time.

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Completely broke, very injured

and with very little future

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that I could see ahead of me.

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I had been able to technically fly

below the radar as a student and live

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at home and not have to pay rent.

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And so my parents had supported my

lifestyle until eventually I could

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no longer make any excuses for it.

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I was in my late twenties already.

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And I was like, okay, I've

got to make a call now.

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And so I made the very hard decision

to to retire as a professional artist,

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had a law degree that was now finally

complete and that I did not want to

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use, I did not want to become a lawyer.

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So I knew that for certain, but then

the question was what the hell else

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could I do, but as a you know you said,

is it's a first business that I, that

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I'd started you know, when you're an

independent artist, particularly in

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dance, you know, I had my, I had my own

little dance company and then you're

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kind of doing everything you're doing,

your marketing, you're doing your PR,

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you know, doing your copywriting, you're

organizing the events, you're, you're

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just, aside from the choreographing and

the performing you Nevertheless, I didn't

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realize that I had all these skills.

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I was like, I'm kind of useless

to anybody in the business

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world, but I need to get a job.

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I need to start earning

some like decent money.

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And so I I got a job as a data capturer.

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At a recruiting company.

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Jeff Melnyk: Okay.

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Debbie Goodman: I knew nothing

at all about anything to

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do with being in an office.

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I didn't know.

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I really, I knew nothing.

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Jeff Melnyk: And was that just a,

that was just sort of a random place.

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I'll take, I'll just take this job.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Debbie Goodman: They're going to,

they were going to pay me like at

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the time it was like 150 every month.

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I was like, I'm going to take it.

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Sure.

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Every month.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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So I joined this company.

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Somebody was prepared

to take a chance on me.

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And that's been a little bit of a

theme, actually, all the way through.

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Somebody.

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Being prepared to take a chance,

I got started as a data capture.

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I then was like, this is boring as shit.

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I need to do something else.

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And so I taught myself, I got, got a

little bit of training as a recruiter.

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And then I realized, wow, I

really love being on the phone.

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I love selling.

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I love being able to chase down a lead

and make a, you know, make a placement.

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And it was something that was

surprising to me, but I found

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a great affinity for that.

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And within a very short time, I

was doing really well financially.

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I was just, it opened my horizons.

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I was like, Oh my goodness, with money,

you just have the, you have choice.

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That was, that was something new.

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Jeff Melnyk: So different from the

arts world where the number one

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scarcity is where is the money?

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Debbie Goodman: So that was an eye opener.

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I'd never been somebody

to chase money at all.

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But it was definitely, you know, It, it,

it buys you freedom, it buys you choice

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and but I am also a terrible employee.

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That was another interesting discovery.

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Mostly because I like, I think my ideas

are really good and I would like to

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and so I was butting heads with the

owner of the company quite frequently.

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And eventually I was like,

yeah, my time here is done.

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I think it's time for me to

just try it all on my own.

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Jeff Melnyk: So at that point

were you, were you like, okay,

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I, I've got everything I need now.

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I can just go ahead and set up my own.

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Gig?

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Like, was it, do you remember that moment

where you were like, I'm done here.

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I'm ready to do this myself.

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Debbie Goodman: The arrogance

and innocence of youth.

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I did think I had it all together.

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Only to discover, I really did not know

what I was doing, but I was bold and

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I was willing to put myself out there

and I didn't, I was okay to just fly

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by the seat of my pants for a while.

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I had a, like three months of cashflow.

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I was like, how hard can it be?

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We'll just go out and meet people

and find out if they want to hire.

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And and back in the day, I mean, they'd be

talking 20 something years now, you could

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phone people up and get meetings and.

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I actually go and visit

them in their offices.

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And, and so one thing led to

another and it was a lot harder

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than I had ever imagined.

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But eventually I'd set up this new

business and somebody gave me a chance.

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I managed to convince a, he

wasn't a client at the time.

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He was just somebody

that's a potential client.

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I went in and met with

him and he was willing to.

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Say, okay, I'll, , I'll try you out.

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And so I really do think that you

sometimes you have to put, you have

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to put in the work of making stuff

happen and then get lucky enough

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to have somebody who's willing

to take that first chance on you.

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And until that happens, it can

be quite, quite hard, sometimes a

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little bit demoralizing, a bit of

like, when's it going to happen?

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So somebody took a chance on me and it

was from then on I would have to say I

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know that the, the dream story is, oh,

and then just the, the path opened up and

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then it was this incredible J curve of

all the things just started to happen.

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Well, not really.

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Jeff Melnyk: So some of the inevitable

ups and downs, but that moment where

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someone took a chance on you or believed

in you, that felt like was that, is

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that when you knew I'm doing this now?

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I'm a founder.

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I've got this.

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Debbie Goodman: I don't know that

that realization ever occurred.

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Ever hit me.

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I think I've always barreled

into things and just gone,

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this seems like a good idea.

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We're going to give it a go.

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Okay.

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And I, I'm okay to do things

with half information that's

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with a little bit of testing.

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And at the time there was less risk.

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I didn't have kids.

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I, you know, it was just me.

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And so it was okay to just go for it.

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And.

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I don't, I don't know that

I ever went that stage.

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I don't think I turned around and go,

Oh, I can put the founder title on my.

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Business card, I mean.

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Yeah.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

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Because it's interesting now, isn't it?

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When we think about founder

origin stories, obviously we,

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we go to the tech world, right?

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You're in professional services as are,

as am I, and those are very creative

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businesses, but we tend to think,

well, what is the tech founder story?

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And that's very much Get something

set up and then go and ask someone

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to take a chance on you, isn't it?

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To get the funding in.

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But that's not your story.

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You haven't gone for VC funding.

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You've had to work your way through

20 years of, of building the business.

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Does it feel different?

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I mean, you work with

tech founders now too.

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You know what it's like.

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Is it quite a different journey?

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Debbie Goodman: Definitely.

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I mean, I speak to founders every day

and some of them are surprisingly,

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they've taken a surprisingly longer time

than one would imagine to get to the

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point where they raise their series,

this, their seed series or series A.

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You know, it's a lot of plugging

away to get to that, that point.

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And then some have managed to really

accelerate the growth of the companies

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in a very short space of time,

comparatively you know, a few years.

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Into something that's a recognizable

brand with hundreds of people

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and many, many customers.

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And, you know, I look at that in awe,

it's not something I've ever done.

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I've definitely been the,

the plodding bootstrapping.

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Version of of a founder and

that has meant very slow growth.

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It's been incremental growth but it's

been slow and , I've never had to borrow

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money and I've never had to raise money.

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I have always had, product

services and revenue driven growth.

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And that's a very different proposition

to the kind of world that we find

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ourselves in when we're supporting,

you know sort of venture or angel

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or private equity, you know.

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Backed founders and CEOs and

leadership teams you know, , that's a

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completely different growth trajectory

and it's got its ups and downs.

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Jeff Melnyk: But that

was your choice, right?

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, cause , I'm assuming you could

have asked for financial support or

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investment at some point in the curve.

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Did you, did you consider

that at any point?

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Are we like hard?

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No.

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Debbie Goodman: I did consider it.

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There had been a couple of

you know invitations, requests

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to meet over the years.

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And . There was, I guess there's

always been one thing that's

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held me back a little bit.

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And that is the, I really prize my

independence a lot now it's, it's,

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it's a bit of a double edged sword.

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Okay.

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Cause let's not for ourselves,

you're essentially still beholden

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to the business and the demand of

meeting payroll every month and , you

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essentially carry all the risk.

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But somehow or another, that just

rested a lot easier with me than being

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beholden to a to an investor or group

of investors and needing to make people

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and business decisions based on, you

know, Forecasts and budget numbers that

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had been predetermined around growth.

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And I have been in this business

for a really long time and

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there've been ups and downs.

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And every time there's been a significant

downturn in the market, which happens

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from time to time, either because of

macroeconomic stuff or just, you know,

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it's, we're going through a quiet phase

On the one hand, it's like you bite your

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nails, when's the next project coming in?

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But on the other, I'm like, thank

God I can just weather the storm

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on my own and I don't have somebody

breathing down my neck asking me

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questions that I can't really answer.

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So it's a, it's a, it's a bit of both.

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And I guess I, I'm, I'm okay with, with

what, with the path that I've chosen.

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Jeff Melnyk: And there's, there

are some trade offs there, right?

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Like for you to be the one that's

chosen this path, it's offered you.

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the greatest responsibility, but

also an element of freedom, right?

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You aren't beholden, but you've also

been able to make some choices in

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your own world that have allowed

you to create the business you want.

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, I feel like, , Jack Hammer has

grown in its own way, but you

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are now you're a global business.

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, do you feel proud of, of that achievement?

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah, I mean, I do.

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And then I also think once again, that

was like a happy accident, you know,

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because You know, if I have to tell

the truth of it, when I relocated to

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the U S, I had absolutely no intention

of starting and to do this thing all

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over again from the ground up when

nobody knew me, nobody cared what I'd

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done in Africa, that was for sure.

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And I would have to like do the hard

yards of building again, which is just so.

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I mean, it's hard, harder and hardest.

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And so I had thought that , I

would be in the U S and I

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would do something different.

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And the idea was, well, let's see

what other opportunities might arise.

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One thing led to another

life, life happened.

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A pandemic happened.

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Other personal stuff happened and I was

like, okay, we're doing this thing again.

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Get that spade and start trenching.

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Actually get the jackhammer

and start shaking things up.

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Right,

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Jeff Melnyk: now the name

finds it's true meaning.

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Right.

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Debbie Goodman: And so Now I reflect

back on, you know, I reflect on

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the last few years and go, wow,

actually we're a global business.

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That's I mean, as you know some

part of it is semi designed.

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Some part of it is the path you

find yourself on, and then you

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just seize the opportunities

and some part is just necessity.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, we, I think both of us

want now have chosen a place we want to

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live and therefore that Necessitates also

where our global footprint will want to

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be but you found you've got opportunities

in America that that you've Jackhammered

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to find right like that's part of it But

like it's not easy Debbie to grow the

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global business as you said, but you but

you're stuck with it You could have gone

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back To, to South Africa, you didn't,

you didn't turn around, put the brakes on

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and turn around and go back to Cape Town.

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What, what, what made you stick with it?

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Debbie Goodman: There have been moments

when I have questioned my sanity.

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Because it's literally been

starting over 20 years after you.

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Did your first thing and there've been

other businesses in the sort of portfolio

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that I have initiated and some are still

growing and doing, you know, nicely.

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So this is not the, you know, growing the

U S division is not the first new thing.

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There've been several

others along the way.

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But this has been the biggest

challenge because the market

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is exceptionally competitive.

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There are hundreds of thousands

of recruiters out there.

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The market has changed radically in

terms of how we, how we find people

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to join our companies these days.

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But every time I thought to

myself, Oh, is this too hard?

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Should I just put a pin in it?

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breathe for a bit, or is this

an opportunity to like, let's

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have some self reflection here.

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How are we doing?

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The reasons to keep going are Partly

my personal pride and ego, frankly.

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It's like I, I'm not giving up on this.

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This is like not gonna be my story.

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So there's a bit of that I have to admit.

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But part of it is I finally feel like

I've got something of substantial

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value to add to the conversation

around people and hiring and leaders.

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And even if it's you

know, even if it's small.

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Currently, compared to some of the other

massively big players in this market,

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I I'm constantly encouraged by the.

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People that have interaction with me

and my team here in the U S that, yeah,

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we've, we've got something special

and something of real value to add.

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And the feedback that I get is

reassurance to just keep me going.

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So yeah, it's a no and

definitely not turning around.

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What?

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No, that would be, that would be mad, yes.

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Jeff Melnyk: I mean, that's definitely

from from what I always feel in your

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energy is that you're tenacious, you're

driven, you want to make those challenges,

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you want to learn from those challenges,

you want to turn those into success.

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So I always knew that that was

going to be part of your story.

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But I was wondering if there was something

that you were starting to learn from the

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context of growing the business in Africa,

bringing What you've learned to the North

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American context and the sort of vice

versa around the sort of learnings between

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two very different business contexts.

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And if there was some way that actually

what you've learned in your founder

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journey is now translating into something

really valuable to, to, to the folks that

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you're meeting here in North America.

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Debbie Goodman: That's such

an interesting question.

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I, I think, I think that it's

not necessarily just about the

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growing the business in Africa.

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You know, we've become the largest

executive search boutique with

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on the ground people and partners

in all of the main markets.

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So we've really grown

something substantial there.

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I think that it's not necessarily about

the business side, but more about my

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personal and professional style, which

is very high touch and very very, very

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human, and I think that I mean, it's

interesting cause I'm immersed in a world

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that is trying to scale through technology

and trying to automate and trying to

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disintermediate and trying to Do as much

work as possible in the world of people

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that is not about actual relationships.

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And I'm pretty steadfast in my desire

to continue to conduct business

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in a way that really looks after

the humanity of what we're doing.

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And that may mean that it's slower

and it may mean that That is not

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necessarily scalable and that it doesn't

have this high volume capability.

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But I, I really want people to feel cared

for and I want people to feel seen and

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:

and we're in a very dehumanized world

of particularly, you know, the hiring

367

:

recruiting landscape right now is becoming

less and less less and less human.

368

:

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

369

:

Debbie Goodman: So.

370

:

That's a, that's just a an approach

that I will struggle to relinquish.

371

:

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

372

:

Debbie Goodman: And it's slower.

373

:

Certainly, once again, if I had an

investor backing me and they were

374

:

like, why is this taking so long?

375

:

I get the choice to go.

376

:

This is the way I'd like to do it.

377

:

And I think this is the

differentiator here.

378

:

I think this is, this is just

what's going to be the foundation

379

:

of our success in, in this market.

380

:

Jeff Melnyk: And coming over here was

a little bit also of a challenge for

381

:

you in that it happened during the

pandemic, and I'm trying in every one

382

:

of my conversations these days not

to have to come back to the pandemic,

383

:

and I think that's impossible.

384

:

I'm just trying to realize the

fundamental shifts and gifts that

385

:

that time in our world had given us.

386

:

And so you moved to Southern

California just before the pandemic?

387

:

Yeah.

388

:

Yeah.

389

:

And then suddenly you find yourself

over here and your team is all in

390

:

Cape Town and and what happened?

391

:

How you couldn't get back to, to your team

and you're living in a remote world now.

392

:

How did that feel?

393

:

Yeah.

394

:

Debbie Goodman: Okay.

395

:

So the, the whole deal was

that I was always going to, I

396

:

relocated here at the end of 2018.

397

:

So the 2019 was this experiment

in actually working remotely.

398

:

Remotely fully remotely.

399

:

And I've been, you know,

I'm a, I'm a rehearser.

400

:

Okay.

401

:

I rehearse for things.

402

:

So three months before I left, I already

took myself out of the office and I

403

:

went to work at some shared office space

in order to try and figure out what

404

:

did we need to, what are the things

that we needed to do that we needed to

405

:

figure out how to do remotely, because

I wasn't going to be in the office.

406

:

And so we did all of that.

407

:

And then I, and then I.

408

:

You know, and then I got

on a plane and I moved.

409

:

Now, the biggest issue was that

I was going to be nine or 10

410

:

hours, 10 hours behind everybody.

411

:

So nobody was going to be able to get

hold of me until like three o'clock

412

:

in the afternoon, South Africa time.

413

:

And so it was almost like, do you remember

when we were going to have Y2K and the,

414

:

like, you're going to put the switch on?

415

:

It was a bit like that.

416

:

It was like the day, January the 8th or

something was going to be the day when

417

:

we were going to see if this all worked.

418

:

And it actually did.

419

:

We've, we, I had figured out how

to handle the logistics of things.

420

:

Remotely, but at that point, 2019

collectively, we, the business world,

421

:

the working world was not remote.

422

:

We were not digital.

423

:

And so I was getting on a plane every

sort of two months from LA to Cape town,

424

:

which for anybody who does not know

what that trip is like, it is brutal.

425

:

Jeff Melnyk: It is the world's longest.

426

:

It's the marathon.

427

:

I don't care what they say about London.

428

:

No, Australia.

429

:

I think that the South coast, yeah.

430

:

West coast, California to, to

Cape town is the biggest trip.

431

:

Debbie Goodman: It's a,

it's a trick of note.

432

:

I did it every two months because I needed

to, I need, you know, we just were not

433

:

proficient with how we were going to, you

know, do this without seeing clients and

434

:

seeing my team and doing all the things.

435

:

And then when I did my last trip

to Cape Town, I think I got back

436

:

the 20th of February or something,

437

:

Jeff Melnyk: 2020,

438

:

Debbie Goodman: 2020, I can tell you,

I was so freaking happy when, when

439

:

those airports shut down, I was one

of those people who was like, Creative

440

:

Jeff Melnyk: constraint

enters the business world.

441

:

You now can't travel, but you've

been building the foundations

442

:

of working remotely, right?

443

:

So that felt, yeah.

444

:

But

445

:

Debbie Goodman: then everybody went

online and so I could do everything

446

:

that I needed to do online.

447

:

As long as I was awake, I could

have all the meetings I wanted.

448

:

I could, from my.

449

:

It's from my office, my home office.

450

:

So for me, it was it was a huge relief.

451

:

It was a huge enabler.

452

:

And and I have continued to lead

and run, oversee the business.

453

:

I have a managing director who runs

the day to day at Vaitha Naidu.

454

:

She is amazing.

455

:

Amazing.

456

:

We have got an incredible partnership.

457

:

We collaborate really well.

458

:

We stay in our own lanes.

459

:

We also rehearsed for that.

460

:

But that really came to the

fore during during the pandemic.

461

:

And so I've managed to be the

overall leader of this business

462

:

and work completely remotely.

463

:

And retain our culture, retain our values.

464

:

You know, I don't, I mean, I love

coming to Cape Town and seeing my

465

:

team and they're all very excited

for like the first 15 minutes and

466

:

then, you know, it's like, okay.

467

:

When

468

:

Jeff Melnyk: is she leaving?

469

:

Yeah.

470

:

You, you, you've made it work.

471

:

This still is, you know,

one of the biggest.

472

:

quandaries that people come to, to

us to ask about how are we going to

473

:

retain or enhance our culture when

we're living in a remote hybrid world.

474

:

I know you're passionate

about this topic as well.

475

:

I've been on your

podcast to talk about it.

476

:

It's still, some folks still can't get

it and yet it's given you A great gift

477

:

because you've been able to not only

have the business you want that continues

478

:

to thrive, step into new challenges

over here in the West Coast and step

479

:

into new things for your own life.

480

:

So what is it that

people don't get Debbie?

481

:

It's the gift, this gift keeps giving.

482

:

Debbie Goodman: So yeah, I mean, we could

spend a very long time talking about

483

:

culture and values and, and all the rest.

484

:

So there's some basic.

485

:

Principles, basic business principles.

486

:

How do we, how do we

do things around here?

487

:

They were very well entrenched and

a core of our team had spent a lot

488

:

of time working together in person.

489

:

That certainly helped when we all

went remote, but we've lost people

490

:

and we've hired new people and we've

figured out where the specific gaps are

491

:

that are harder to that are harder to

replicate out of not being in person.

492

:

For example Certainly the youngest

and sort of more junior staff members,

493

:

they would benefit tremendously

from being in an office space with

494

:

hearing other people on the phone.

495

:

And hearing, you know, I would love to

hear, you know, newbies who are having

496

:

their first sales calls or having the

first interviews and I'd be having my

497

:

one ear open and then rush over to their

desk afterwards and you could try it

498

:

like this, you could try it like that.

499

:

You could just, I mean,

how on earth are we?

500

:

Yes, there's Is some technology to do

that, but we figured out that we are

501

:

going to just have have buddies on calls.

502

:

And so we knew that there was a gap.

503

:

How are we going to accelerate the

learning of, of new staff members?

504

:

And so we, We implemented a

new system and it seems to be

505

:

working just great, actually.

506

:

Jeff Melnyk: So take

the ideas from before.

507

:

I would have walked

across, I'm listening in.

508

:

I would have walked across the room.

509

:

You can put that into a remote

scenario, problem solved.

510

:

Debbie Goodman: Right.

511

:

But I think it's, it's more

just around the, the real

512

:

clarity on on what it's like.

513

:

How we want to deal, deal with the

challenges, interpersonal challenges,

514

:

the hard conversations, the the

dynamics that eventually, you know,

515

:

then inevitably creep into teams,

what's okay, what's not okay.

516

:

I've been very clear about that for,

you know, for a really long time.

517

:

And then you hone that as you have

to work remotely and digitally.

518

:

There's certain things I, I,

I believe in very strongly

519

:

around how to address issues.

520

:

And I really feel like we've maintained

an incredibly healthy culture, not

521

:

just healthy, like really amazing.

522

:

So it's one of the things that I'm

absolutely the proudest of is the,

523

:

the quality of the inter dynamics

of this team that is pretty self

524

:

managed for the most part, and then

has got some really good leaders.

525

:

Jeff Melnyk: And do you think without the

pandemic, that wouldn't have happened?

526

:

Do you think that, that is it, it

wasn't a gift that's given, that's

527

:

given you guys a new way of working

together, that's helping people

528

:

to thrive and including yourself?

529

:

Debbie Goodman: Look, I think the

flexibility for a large number of the

530

:

people in our team are our career moms.

531

:

And for that category in

particular, it's been game changing.

532

:

We know that.

533

:

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

534

:

Debbie Goodman: Then there are other

people who live far away from the office.

535

:

They don't have to get

into traffic for them.

536

:

Game changing.

537

:

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

538

:

Debbie Goodman: For some people, they

really like being in, in an office space.

539

:

And so we have an office space, so they

get to come in when they feel like it.

540

:

For me, I get to love how

many gazillion miles away.

541

:

And work remotely and Start and,

you know, grow a global offering.

542

:

I mean, that would never, that

would have been really hard to

543

:

pull off pre pandemic for sure.

544

:

The other really amazing gift is that you

know, a lot of people are, you know, throw

545

:

their hands up in the air when they say,

you wake up at 4am in order to start work?

546

:

And I'm like, yes, I do.

547

:

However, I start work at 5am.

548

:

By 2 p.

549

:

m.

550

:

I've worked a full day and then I get

to do this absolutely amazing thing.

551

:

At this point in my life, I am

having my second act as a dancer.

552

:

I've taken up competitive ballroom

dancing and so I go to the dance

553

:

studio every afternoon and I

train for two to three hours.

554

:

And I am giving it a full go and

I get to do this because of this

555

:

incredible flexibility that I have.

556

:

And because yeah, I just managed

to organize my day so that I, you

557

:

know, it can accommodate that.

558

:

My kids are in high school.

559

:

They, you know, they're not around.

560

:

They're going to get home.

561

:

I'll be home before they're home.

562

:

Deal with my inbox.

563

:

Rinse, repeat, start all over again.

564

:

I mean, I could never have imagined

that this would ever, ever be possible.

565

:

And now it is.

566

:

Jeff Melnyk: So the, in the nine to

five world that you could have inhabited

567

:

before, there would be no time for you

to have the second act, would there?

568

:

Debbie Goodman: It would

have been much harder.

569

:

There are a bunch of life circumstances

that have very fortunately spired or have

570

:

managed to meet at the right time where

I'm, I'm, you know, I've, my kids are more

571

:

independent, they're, you know, they're

a little older now, so I'm not doing as

572

:

much active mothering as I was when they

were younger and, you know, one's driving.

573

:

I don't even have to

do schlepping anymore.

574

:

Can't find their

575

:

Jeff Melnyk: car keys, but they

576

:

Debbie Goodman: Exactly.

577

:

They can't find the car keys all the time.

578

:

So some

579

:

Jeff Melnyk: active mothering.

580

:

Debbie Goodman: Yes,

yes, that's that is true.

581

:

That

582

:

Jeff Melnyk: may not go away, ever.

583

:

Debbie Goodman: And then you know,

just being able to have the flexibility

584

:

and independence and, and also not, I

think the other thing is I'm very open

585

:

about, I'm not trying to pretend that

I've got the secret hobby on the side

586

:

and that nobody should know about.

587

:

I really want, I want the world, I want

my team to know I've got this thing

588

:

going on and if they're able, you know,

we should all be able to have full lives

589

:

where we get to work hard and then pursue

hobbies at the right time in our lives.

590

:

Granted it's hard to do everything

all at once when, you know, when

591

:

your, your family demands are high,

then you know that there's personal

592

:

sacrifice, but I'm at a point now

where I've done those hard yards.

593

:

And yes, I am still very much in startup

and entrepreneur and mode and digging

594

:

those trenches hard, but also know that

I need to fill my cup in, you know, with

595

:

other, other interests and passions.

596

:

And so.

597

:

And you I'm also aware that I

possibly only get this chance now,

598

:

Jeff Melnyk: and

599

:

Debbie Goodman: I'm not

prepared to pass that up.

600

:

Jeff Melnyk: So, cause other,

other lesser mortals, Debbie,

601

:

would not step into the act too.

602

:

They would just go, I'm

growing my business.

603

:

I want to make it successful.

604

:

I want to make it successful

here on the West Coast as well.

605

:

But you're like, no, I want

to, I want this second act.

606

:

I want to get back to dance.

607

:

This is the full circle.

608

:

You've made that happen.

609

:

And, but what I'm getting from

you and what I've noticed is

610

:

it's giving you something.

611

:

It's not taking more of your time.

612

:

It's fueling you.

613

:

It's firing things up again.

614

:

And I think that is the fascinating.

615

:

Part about when we step into our

passions and our creativity, it creates

616

:

much more of a space of thriving for

us than, than us feeling like it's

617

:

taking up or using more of our time.

618

:

Have you noticed that?

619

:

Debbie Goodman: Oh, 100%.

620

:

I mean, over the years, whenever

I would get into stuck mode, and

621

:

I mean, you know that I believe

in flow, I've written a book.

622

:

In the flow, taking

mindfulness to work, et cetera.

623

:

I mean, I believe in flow.

624

:

I believe in flow states.

625

:

We can see it around us.

626

:

And I, and also aware, I'm of

observant enough of the times in my

627

:

life when things feel very stuck.

628

:

And every time I'm like, Oh,

we're stuck in that spot again.

629

:

And just nothing's moving as much

as we want to shake the tree.

630

:

Everything's just static.

631

:

I've always gone.

632

:

Into creative mode, I've taken on some

kind of dance project or I've taken

633

:

on something creative because we know

the data around this, the moment you

634

:

activate your creativity, that generates

the energy that helps to shift the stuff

635

:

that is Currently in, in that static

gluey adhesive mode, it requires a

636

:

different energy in order to shift things.

637

:

And so I get this on a, on a daily

basis with my, with my dance.

638

:

And I also get the dopamine hit every day.

639

:

So I suppose it's the equivalent of

somebody going for like a really long

640

:

run and getting their endorphin rush.

641

:

Exactly.

642

:

I think

643

:

Jeff Melnyk: the creativity flow,

the athletic flow, it's got the

644

:

same impact on, on our, on our

wellbeing state and also just

645

:

unlocking new fresh ideas for us.

646

:

But you said before, some people don't.

647

:

have necessarily the liberty of this

time or flexibility like what advice

648

:

do you have for them because this

feels so beneficial you've gone back

649

:

to a passion that you know is yours

I'm sure everybody can tap into that

650

:

thing they know that is a driver for

them that passion you said hubby before

651

:

I don't like that word so much yeah I

652

:

Debbie Goodman: know No, me too.

653

:

If somebody said, Oh, your, your hobby

is dance, I might give them the middle

654

:

finger because it's not that at all.

655

:

It's

656

:

Jeff Melnyk: not.

657

:

And everybody who follows Debbie

and knows that dance is not a hobby.

658

:

This is a professional act.

659

:

You are very good at this.

660

:

So it's, it's, but, but what's it, what

advice do you have to get them back to it?

661

:

Because it's so valuable.

662

:

Debbie Goodman: You know, I I do believe

that there are times in life where one,

663

:

where certain sacrifices and compromises

you know, they're choices that we make.

664

:

If you had said to me when, you know,

many years ago when I was still married,

665

:

when I, my kids were younger, my family

would have needed much more of me.

666

:

And I would have said, Most of my

whole was taken up with growing the

667

:

business, leading the team and my family.

668

:

And so if you had put dance in the mix,

then it would seriously have been just

669

:

a you know, a small sideline thing that

I might've done the same as somebody

670

:

goes to yoga or you know, or the gym.

671

:

And so sometimes it is about being

alert to the time in our lives

672

:

when those opportunities present

themselves and it's the right time.

673

:

So I feel that, you know, this idea,

Oh, we can do it all, that puts one

674

:

hell of a lot of pressure on people.

675

:

There are times when actually it's

better to not try and do it all.

676

:

It's okay to go, yeah, this is,

this is what life is right now.

677

:

And yes, I would like, I would,

I would prefer it to have a

678

:

little bit more time for me.

679

:

And I always recommend that, but that

doing it all, all the time, 100%,

680

:

that's bullshit, that's a fantasy.

681

:

And particularly with women, we've been

sold a bit of a lemon, I think, when it

682

:

comes to this idea of being the perfect

mom and the perfect wife and the perfect

683

:

the perfect business person and the

perfect worker and the, I mean, good

684

:

God, that's a damn, a lot of pressure.

685

:

And then wanting to pursue your, you

know, your interests and your passions

686

:

on the side, man, that's exhausting.

687

:

So I don't have great advice

other than don't lose your dream

688

:

because the time will come.

689

:

And and that has been a, you

know, just a, a great gift.

690

:

I didn't imagine that I

would have this chance.

691

:

And so every time I walk, every day I

walk into the studio, I'm grateful for

692

:

the fact that I have this chance and also

that I had a very good hip surgeon because

693

:

I had to get my hips replaced last year.

694

:

So, you know, some people

get their boobs done.

695

:

I had my hips done.

696

:

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

697

:

Hips don't lie.

698

:

Yeah.

699

:

Debbie Goodman: Yeah.

700

:

And so I'm very grateful to my

hip surgeon and and then every

701

:

day when I leave the studio, I.

702

:

I think to myself, if I were to

get hit by the proverbial bus on

703

:

the way home, I'm gonna die happy.

704

:

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, but, but if I can

reflect, Debbie, knowing you, you're

705

:

not someone, you get your head down

and get things done, but you're not

706

:

someone who puts their head down and

doesn't see into, into the spaces

707

:

that you're going forward into.

708

:

And I think you've, you've spoken today

about serendipity, like some things

709

:

have conspired to allow you this moment.

710

:

I do think what I see in you is

someone that knows when to spot that

711

:

the opportunity that the time is now.

712

:

And I think, I think what I.

713

:

I know that I coach founders to do is

to get your head up out of the weeds,

714

:

to see what's out there and to fuel

yourself by those things that are,

715

:

that are, are the most creatively,

the most creative, the most creative

716

:

moments to you, because otherwise the,

the, the getting our heads down into

717

:

the business isn't going to give us.

718

:

The perspective for what we need to

go forward, and I truly see that in

719

:

you, you're always up and out, you're

looking for the things, you're seeing

720

:

what's out there, you, you, you

have your, Your eye on the future.

721

:

And I think you, you brought

the future closer to you.

722

:

Debbie Goodman: Well thank you.

723

:

I mean, I appreciate that.

724

:

I do think that sometimes it's, there've

been moments particularly last year,

725

:

I realized that things were kind of

shifting in my, in my business world.

726

:

I wasn't hearing enough buying signals

from the people that I was speaking to.

727

:

Oh yeah, we really want to use

your executive search services.

728

:

And so I, I did what I had, you know,

been schooled to do is speak to customers,

729

:

find out what their actual needs are.

730

:

If you're not getting, if you're not

hearing that people want your service

731

:

or your product, what do they want?

732

:

What's the missing link here?

733

:

And so I used that re, I used my rehab

time when I was just had these surgeries.

734

:

And so I had about eight weeks

when I was not going to be able

735

:

to train, six to eight weeks.

736

:

And I was like, okay, I'm going

to, I'm going to, I challenged

737

:

myself to have 90 customer calls.

738

:

Jeff Melnyk: Wow.

739

:

Nine zero.

740

:

Nine

741

:

Debbie Goodman: zero.

742

:

And I was like, I am going to

get to the end of these 90 calls

743

:

and I'm going to have an answer.

744

:

I don't know what the answer is yet, but

something's not, there's a, there's a

745

:

missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle here.

746

:

And what am I not seeing?

747

:

What am I not hearing?

748

:

But if I ask enough questions and

have enough calls and have enough

749

:

data points, the answer will emerge.

750

:

And.

751

:

Almost happened to maybe

call 82 or something.

752

:

I was like, okay,

753

:

Jeff Melnyk: I think

754

:

Debbie Goodman: we have, I think

I've understood that the market is

755

:

ready for some, well, my market,

which is the venture backed world

756

:

is ready for something else.

757

:

And so we launched a new offering.

758

:

We launched a fractional leaders

offering for venture backed founders

759

:

who need to hire high level people, but

actually can't afford somebody full time.

760

:

Or don't.

761

:

Need them full time or want to try

somebody out before they hire them

762

:

full time or have a new product that

they want to test out or, I mean,

763

:

the, the opportunities are endless.

764

:

And so the moment I started speaking

about this fractional leader offering,

765

:

boom, the buying signals were there.

766

:

I was like, Oh, thank God.

767

:

That was, that was a heavy lift, but we

got there and and then literally rolled

768

:

that out within, within a few weeks.

769

:

And that's the cool thing about as

well, you know, having, you know,

770

:

being, having, having the independence

and freedom is I don't have a board

771

:

that a formal board to, I have to ask

permission or budget or strategic change.

772

:

I could literally write the website,

get it up and start selling in a week.

773

:

And so

774

:

Jeff Melnyk: the other founders paradox,

she can make her own website, she can

775

:

write her own books, she can do it all.

776

:

That's what happens, isn't it?

777

:

But, but I think in that story is

like, back to what you're saying that

778

:

human touch that you have, what is

it that people most need right now?

779

:

You're always on the on the next

trend in your own sector, but also for

780

:

for all of us working in this space.

781

:

And you found that thing.

782

:

I know we're almost out of time.

783

:

And I could keep talking to you forever.

784

:

And I still I still have one

more round of questions for you.

785

:

But very quickly, because this notion of

the fractional leader, this is important.

786

:

This is something that's, that's not

only needed in the world right now,

787

:

but isn't is quite in hot demand.

788

:

What why is it that we need this, right?

789

:

Debbie Goodman: We are in a world

Where the idea that you would be

790

:

surrounded by a leadership team,

and I'm just talking leaders, right?

791

:

Cause that's the world that I, that I

know that we would have a, a leadership

792

:

team that would be in our office with

us and we'd all be sitting around

793

:

the boardroom table holding hands

from eight to five or whatever it is.

794

:

That is an outdated model.

795

:

We are hybrid.

796

:

Or remote.

797

:

We work with people who are not

necessarily even working in the same city.

798

:

We are optimizing for

affordability as well as talent.

799

:

And we have options.

800

:

And we can hire people who can.

801

:

Can be optimal in not necessarily

100 percent full time in the same

802

:

office altogether all the time.

803

:

That is, if you, if you just think

about that, I mean, it's an idea we

804

:

discussed previously that a few years

ago, that was the only way we worked.

805

:

The idea was that there would

be the CEO and their C suite

806

:

all together all the time.

807

:

I mean, where on earth does

that happen these days?

808

:

Maybe some places, but none that I know.

809

:

Jeff Melnyk: It's no longer the reality.

810

:

Debbie Goodman: Yeah.

811

:

And so, and, and with everybody

being super cost conscious, as

812

:

well as thinking about how they

might be able to employ people.

813

:

In a way that that suits the, you know,

that suits the employee or the contractor

814

:

as well, who might want flexibility.

815

:

We've just got so many different options.

816

:

And so fractional is not the only option.

817

:

It's part of a bigger.

818

:

Talent model and you know, we've been

speaking about the gig economy and how

819

:

that's the way, the way of the future.

820

:

I think we've, you know, we know about

gig workers, part time workers, et cetera.

821

:

But the idea of having people in a

leadership team that would also be

822

:

some of them or all of them, usually

it's, it's not everybody, but it's

823

:

usually a few you know, a couple of

people within a, within a leadership

824

:

team that might actually be only a few.

825

:

Part time, particularly for smaller

companies, particularly for companies

826

:

that are very cost conscious.

827

:

That is a no brainer these days.

828

:

Jeff Melnyk: And there's going

to be a lot of resistance to it.

829

:

And Debbie, you are going to lead the

charge at the benefit and the value of it.

830

:

I just think it sparks a whole new

way of thinking about how the business

831

:

can be run, innovation, different

ways of, of seeing your business grow.

832

:

So very excited to see

where that goes for you.

833

:

So, so that's.

834

:

New and out from Jack Hammer, as well

as your podcast is still going strong.

835

:

Are we, some hot episodes this,

836

:

Debbie Goodman: On Work and Revolution

is still going very strong actually.

837

:

We were going to do like sort of once a

month and then it became twice a month.

838

:

And now I feel like we're just like an

every week thing, mostly because I've

839

:

got such amazing people to speak to

and then I want to interview them all.

840

:

And so yeah, that's going really strong.

841

:

I think I should the name for On Work

and Revolution, actually my, my she

842

:

was then 14 year old, came up with

the name and she, yeah, my daughter

843

:

and she, she got her first copy

writing check for coming up with the

844

:

royalties and now she wants royalties.

845

:

Yeah.

846

:

So like, Hey, this podcast has

been going for two years now.

847

:

Respect the

848

:

Jeff Melnyk: IP, mom.

849

:

You're like, where are my

royalties for raising you?

850

:

Right.

851

:

Yeah.

852

:

Debbie, this has been great.

853

:

I've got one final set of questions

really quickly for you, which I'm

854

:

calling the Founders Rapid Fire 5.

855

:

So I want you to tap into your

inner founder wisdom with these five

856

:

questions, and I want you to just

Share a pearl of insight from your gut.

857

:

So I have not sent you these questions.

858

:

I know for some folks that causes

severe anxiety, but I know you

859

:

can you can tap in with this.

860

:

So there are no right answers to these.

861

:

And I just want to see what

reflections you might have.

862

:

You ready to go?

863

:

Debbie Goodman: All right, let's go.

864

:

Let's hit it.

865

:

Jeff Melnyk: Where do you

get your freshest ideas?

866

:

Podcasts or books?

867

:

Debbie Goodman: Podcasts.

868

:

Jeff Melnyk: Which leader

has inspired you most?

869

:

Debbie Goodman: Hmm, hmm,

870

:

Jeff Melnyk: pass.

871

:

I'll come around again.

872

:

I'll let you percolate and

then Emily can edit that out.

873

:

Gen Z.

874

:

Hope or hassle.

875

:

Finish this sentence.

876

:

If I could do one thing differently

in my business, it would be

877

:

Debbie Goodman: Emily, you're going to

have to add this to this one as well.

878

:

If I could do one thing differently

in my business, it would be I'm

879

:

trying to think of all the things.

880

:

One thing.

881

:

Hmm.

882

:

Okay.

883

:

I have on occasion settled for mediocrity.

884

:

Jeff Melnyk: So we would settle for a

higher bar, or we wouldn't settle for a

885

:

Debbie Goodman: lower bar?

886

:

Oh no, I mean, a value of ours

is performed to win, so that

887

:

is just completely not okay.

888

:

Yeah.

889

:

Jeff Melnyk: Good.

890

:

I, I support you on that conviction.

891

:

Okay.

892

:

Debbie Goodman: And, and you

want to go back to the leader

893

:

who has inspired me most?

894

:

Okay.

895

:

I'm gonna think of who's in my, who's

in my, sitting in my favorites, who's

896

:

also not entirely politically incorrect.

897

:

I really liked Sheryl

Sandberg at one point.

898

:

What

899

:

Jeff Melnyk: happened to Sheryl?

900

:

So we liked Sheryl.

901

:

She, Sheryl was inspiring?

902

:

Debbie Goodman: She was inspiring

at one moment, and then it all

903

:

became a little bit a little shabby.

904

:

Well, she had some

905

:

Jeff Melnyk: personal

things happen, didn't she?

906

:

Oh, oh,

907

:

Debbie Goodman: Brene Brown is

like the most inspiring, for sure.

908

:

Okay, Brene.

909

:

We can

910

:

Jeff Melnyk: do that one again.

911

:

So, so, okay.

912

:

Which leader has inspired you most?

913

:

Debbie Goodman: Without

a doubt, Brene Brown.

914

:

Jeff Melnyk: What is it about Brené?

915

:

Debbie Goodman: Well, she manages

to combine both this incredible

916

:

wit and sense of humor and down to

earthness with incredible wisdom.

917

:

Jeff Melnyk: I think she

needs to be on your podcast.

918

:

So let's manifest that.

919

:

Final cue in our Founders Rapid Fire 5.

920

:

What one person do you want to thank

today for your founder journey?

921

:

Debbie Goodman: You know,

I'm gonna thank Colin Bullen.

922

:

Who is the, the client that

gave me my very first chance.

923

:

He still stays in touch

with me on LinkedIn.

924

:

And I have no, I still have

no idea why he believed in me.

925

:

Cause I, I mean, I had no

references and no nothing to back

926

:

up what I promised to deliver.

927

:

So it was sheer belief and

trust and taking a chance.

928

:

And for that, I'm eternally grateful.

929

:

Jeff Melnyk: Oh, well done, Colin.

930

:

There's, there's one in every journey

or two or three or four or ten.

931

:

So that's awesome that, that you're still

in touch with him, because I think that

932

:

always makes you remember, doesn't it?

933

:

Yeah,

934

:

Debbie Goodman: yeah, totally.

935

:

And, and why I'm some, you know,

I'm also willing to, if I believe

936

:

in somebody and I think they've got

the passion and the drive, I'm going

937

:

to give them a chance for sure.

938

:

Jeff Melnyk: Debbie,

this has been delightful.

939

:

Thank you so much for being on the show.

940

:

So much more to dig into.

941

:

I'm, Very excited for our next Coffee

Together, where hopefully we also

942

:

might manifest Chris Hemsworth again.

943

:

That was one of my favorite

moments of our journey together.

944

:

One of the benefits of your Manhattan

Beach experience as well is you

945

:

just might bump into a Hemsworth.

946

:

It's long may it rain.

947

:

What's next on the dancing

before we let you go?

948

:

Do we have a competition coming up?

949

:

Debbie Goodman: Oh, yes.

950

:

The competition season is upon us.

951

:

I'm performing in Beach Bash

in April and then it's May and

952

:

June, July, August, September.

953

:

All the way to September when is

the US Dance Championships, so,

954

:

Jeff Melnyk: yeah.

955

:

Best of luck for that.

956

:

We'll be watching out for you

on Instagram and it's been a

957

:

delight, so thank you so much.

958

:

Debbie Goodman: This has been so much fun.

959

:

.

Jeff Melnyk: Thanks for listening, everyone.

960

:

You can hear Debbie's podcast on work

and revolution on Apple and Spotify,

961

:

or hop over to DebbieGoodmanLeadership.

962

:

com to get in touch directly with her.

963

:

Tune into our podcast for more episodes

on what's happening in the culture

964

:

and leadership space, what's on the

minds of the leaders committed to

965

:

change in our community, and other

future work content that you crave.

966

:

Reimagining work from within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.

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