In this episode, Jeff chats with Debbie Goodman, the founder of Jackhammer. Together, they explore her unique journey as a trailblazer in the executive search industry while also pursuing her passion for dance.

Debbie opens up about the challenges of maintaining an international company culture and shares personal insights on the importance of personal fulfilment in achieving professional success. 

This episode is packed with lessons on adaptability, leadership, and the art of seizing opportunities to enrich both personal and professional life.

Learn all about Within People and the work we do here.

Learn more about Debbie and her podcast Revolutionising Leadership here. 

Get in touch with Jack Hammer here.

Hey everyone, this is Jeff from Within.

2

Last year we started thinking

about how founders face different

3

challenges as leaders in business.

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As a coach of founders and CEOs,

I noticed similar themes emerge

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in my work with executives.

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Letting go, leaning in, knowing your

imposter and knowing when to quit, and

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how to continue the drive to win when

you don't have much left in the tank.

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So we started the Founders Series

as part of Reimagining Work From

9

Within, a place to speak openly with

leaders about what really goes on

10

behind the scenes when you have so

much invested in what you've created.

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I met Debbie Goodman on one of

my very first trips to South

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Africa almost a decade ago.

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We were just getting within up and

running in Cape Town, and Debbie was

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already a force in the business community

there with her business Jackhammer.

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We found we were aligned in thinking

around creativity, how the workplace was

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changing, and the challenges of leading

in an ever shifting business environment.

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Both Debbie and I moved to

California around the pandemic.

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I truly admire her tenacity, her ability

to seek out new opportunities and put her

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own spin on them, and how she's continuing

to grow Jackhammer through empowering her

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teams from afar, giving her the time and

space to do the things that fuel her joy.

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We caught up recently for this

edition of the Founders Series.

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I hope this conversation

sparks some thoughts about

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how letting go helps you grow.

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Debbie, it is truly an honor to have

you on Reimagining Work From Within.

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I've been wanting to have this

conversation for quite some time

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with you, and as part of the Founders

Series, I feel like now I can really

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get into the grips of what it means

to be Debbie and into your story.

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I think you've got countless

lessons to share with our listeners.

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And you've certainly been like

a semi mentor to me, because I

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think I come to you sometimes

with a little bit of a quandary.

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And I don't go like, Hey, Debbie, here's

the thing as a founder, I am struggling

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with, but I'd rather be like, let's have

a coffee and then something will emerge.

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So I've always valued your wisdom.

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So, so just thank you so much for,

for being, being on the show today.

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You're, you're home in LA at the moment.

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You just got back from,

from some time in Cape Town.

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah,

I'm in Manhattan beach.

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Let's just clarify.

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It's not quite LA.

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Apologies to our

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Jeff Melnyk: SoCal listeners.

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Debbie Goodman: Get the facts

straight, but yeah, it was after

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two weeks in my hometown, Cape Town,

and yeah, settling back into the

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groove of working at my dining table.

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Jeff Melnyk: Oof.

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But this is the best time

of year to go to Cape Town,

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Debbie Goodman: isn't it?

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Jeff Melnyk: This is the time, so you were

there throughout sort of Feb and March?

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah, just

a couple of weeks in Feb.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That is prime.

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Prime Cape Town time, isn't it?

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Debbie Goodman: Yeah.

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It's an ama actually any time's an

amazing time to be in Cape Town.

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So yeah, I got my Cape Town, filled

my cup and now back in my other home.

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Jeff Melnyk: So tell us a little

bit about your story as a founder,

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cause you, you are from Cape Town.

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You started your business in Cape Town.

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You now live in Southern California.

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That's been a journey that's

taken some time, but what,

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how did you start Cape Town?

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Jack Hammer, and I don't even

know this, was Jack Hammer

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your first business as well?

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Because you've been, you've,

you've had Jack Hammer, as long

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as I've known, you were one of our

first clients at Within as well.

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So our history goes way back, but

how did it all get started for you?

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Debbie Goodman: Well, I think a

lot of my business career has just

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been one sort of try something new

accident after the other, really.

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So my origin story actually is that I

am, I used to be a professional dancer,

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choreographer and had had expected that

that was going to be my life forever

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until eventually it came to a bit of

a grinding halt in my late twenties.

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I had I had finished my law degree.

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I was at a point in my head, which

I was doing part time whilst I was

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dancing professionally full time.

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Completely broke, very injured

and with very little future

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that I could see ahead of me.

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I had been able to technically fly

below the radar as a student and live

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at home and not have to pay rent.

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And so my parents had supported my

lifestyle until eventually I could

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no longer make any excuses for it.

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I was in my late twenties already.

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And I was like, okay, I've

got to make a call now.

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And so I made the very hard decision

to to retire as a professional artist,

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had a law degree that was now finally

complete and that I did not want to

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use, I did not want to become a lawyer.

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So I knew that for certain, but then

the question was what the hell else

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could I do, but as a you know you said,

is it's a first business that I, that

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I'd started you know, when you're an

independent artist, particularly in

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dance, you know, I had my, I had my own

little dance company and then you're

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kind of doing everything you're doing,

your marketing, you're doing your PR,

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you know, doing your copywriting, you're

organizing the events, you're, you're

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just, aside from the choreographing and

the performing you Nevertheless, I didn't

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realize that I had all these skills.

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I was like, I'm kind of useless

to anybody in the business

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world, but I need to get a job.

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I need to start earning

some like decent money.

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And so I I got a job as a data capturer.

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At a recruiting company.

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Jeff Melnyk: Okay.

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Debbie Goodman: I knew nothing

at all about anything to

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do with being in an office.

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I didn't know.

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I really, I knew nothing.

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Jeff Melnyk: And was that just a,

that was just sort of a random place.

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I'll take, I'll just take this job.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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Debbie Goodman: They're going to,

they were going to pay me like at

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the time it was like 150 every month.

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I was like, I'm going to take it.

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Sure.

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Every month.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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So I joined this company.

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Somebody was prepared

to take a chance on me.

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And that's been a little bit of a

theme, actually, all the way through.

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Somebody.

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Being prepared to take a chance,

I got started as a data capture.

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I then was like, this is boring as shit.

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I need to do something else.

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And so I taught myself, I got, got a

little bit of training as a recruiter.

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And then I realized, wow, I

really love being on the phone.

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I love selling.

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I love being able to chase down a lead

and make a, you know, make a placement.

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And it was something that was

surprising to me, but I found

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a great affinity for that.

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And within a very short time, I

was doing really well financially.

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I was just, it opened my horizons.

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I was like, Oh my goodness, with money,

you just have the, you have choice.

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That was, that was something new.

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Jeff Melnyk: So different from the

arts world where the number one

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scarcity is where is the money?

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Debbie Goodman: So that was an eye opener.

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I'd never been somebody

to chase money at all.

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But it was definitely, you know, It, it,

it buys you freedom, it buys you choice

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and but I am also a terrible employee.

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That was another interesting discovery.

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Mostly because I like, I think my ideas

are really good and I would like to

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and so I was butting heads with the

owner of the company quite frequently.

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And eventually I was like,

yeah, my time here is done.

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I think it's time for me to

just try it all on my own.

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Jeff Melnyk: So at that point

were you, were you like, okay,

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I, I've got everything I need now.

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I can just go ahead and set up my own.

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Gig?

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Like, was it, do you remember that moment

where you were like, I'm done here.

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I'm ready to do this myself.

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Debbie Goodman: The arrogance

and innocence of youth.

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I did think I had it all together.

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Only to discover, I really did not know

what I was doing, but I was bold and

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I was willing to put myself out there

and I didn't, I was okay to just fly

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by the seat of my pants for a while.

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I had a, like three months of cashflow.

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I was like, how hard can it be?

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We'll just go out and meet people

and find out if they want to hire.

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And and back in the day, I mean, they'd be

talking 20 something years now, you could

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phone people up and get meetings and.

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I actually go and visit

them in their offices.

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And, and so one thing led to

another and it was a lot harder

162

than I had ever imagined.

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But eventually I'd set up this new

business and somebody gave me a chance.

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I managed to convince a, he

wasn't a client at the time.

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He was just somebody

that's a potential client.

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I went in and met with

him and he was willing to.

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Say, okay, I'll, , I'll try you out.

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And so I really do think that you

sometimes you have to put, you have

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to put in the work of making stuff

happen and then get lucky enough

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to have somebody who's willing

to take that first chance on you.

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And until that happens, it can

be quite, quite hard, sometimes a

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little bit demoralizing, a bit of

like, when's it going to happen?

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So somebody took a chance on me and it

was from then on I would have to say I

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know that the, the dream story is, oh,

and then just the, the path opened up and

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then it was this incredible J curve of

all the things just started to happen.

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Well, not really.

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Jeff Melnyk: So some of the inevitable

ups and downs, but that moment where

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someone took a chance on you or believed

in you, that felt like was that, is

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that when you knew I'm doing this now?

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I'm a founder.

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I've got this.

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Debbie Goodman: I don't know that

that realization ever occurred.

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Ever hit me.

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I think I've always barreled

into things and just gone,

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this seems like a good idea.

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We're going to give it a go.

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Okay.

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And I, I'm okay to do things

with half information that's

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with a little bit of testing.

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And at the time there was less risk.

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I didn't have kids.

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I, you know, it was just me.

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And so it was okay to just go for it.

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And.

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I don't, I don't know that

I ever went that stage.

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I don't think I turned around and go,

Oh, I can put the founder title on my.

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Business card, I mean.

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Yeah.

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Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

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Because it's interesting now, isn't it?

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When we think about founder

origin stories, obviously we,

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we go to the tech world, right?

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You're in professional services as are,

as am I, and those are very creative

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businesses, but we tend to think,

well, what is the tech founder story?

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And that's very much Get something

set up and then go and ask someone

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to take a chance on you, isn't it?

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To get the funding in.

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But that's not your story.

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You haven't gone for VC funding.

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You've had to work your way through

20 years of, of building the business.

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Does it feel different?

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I mean, you work with

tech founders now too.

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You know what it's like.

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Is it quite a different journey?

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Debbie Goodman: Definitely.

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I mean, I speak to founders every day

and some of them are surprisingly,

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they've taken a surprisingly longer time

than one would imagine to get to the

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point where they raise their series,

this, their seed series or series A.

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You know, it's a lot of plugging

away to get to that, that point.

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And then some have managed to really

accelerate the growth of the companies

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in a very short space of time,

comparatively you know, a few years.

222

Into something that's a recognizable

brand with hundreds of people

223

and many, many customers.

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And, you know, I look at that in awe,

it's not something I've ever done.

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I've definitely been the,

the plodding bootstrapping.

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Version of of a founder and

that has meant very slow growth.

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It's been incremental growth but it's

been slow and , I've never had to borrow

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money and I've never had to raise money.

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I have always had, product

services and revenue driven growth.

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And that's a very different proposition

to the kind of world that we find

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ourselves in when we're supporting,

you know sort of venture or angel

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or private equity, you know.

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Backed founders and CEOs and

leadership teams you know, , that's a

234

completely different growth trajectory

and it's got its ups and downs.

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Jeff Melnyk: But that

was your choice, right?

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, cause , I'm assuming you could

have asked for financial support or

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investment at some point in the curve.

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Did you, did you consider

that at any point?

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Are we like hard?

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No.

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Debbie Goodman: I did consider it.

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There had been a couple of

you know invitations, requests

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to meet over the years.

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And . There was, I guess there's

always been one thing that's

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held me back a little bit.

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And that is the, I really prize my

independence a lot now it's, it's,

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it's a bit of a double edged sword.

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Okay.

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Cause let's not for ourselves,

you're essentially still beholden

250

to the business and the demand of

meeting payroll every month and , you

251

essentially carry all the risk.

252

But somehow or another, that just

rested a lot easier with me than being

253

beholden to a to an investor or group

of investors and needing to make people

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and business decisions based on, you

know, Forecasts and budget numbers that

255

had been predetermined around growth.

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And I have been in this business

for a really long time and

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there've been ups and downs.

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And every time there's been a significant

downturn in the market, which happens

259

from time to time, either because of

macroeconomic stuff or just, you know,

260

it's, we're going through a quiet phase

On the one hand, it's like you bite your

261

nails, when's the next project coming in?

262

But on the other, I'm like, thank

God I can just weather the storm

263

on my own and I don't have somebody

breathing down my neck asking me

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questions that I can't really answer.

265

So it's a, it's a, it's a bit of both.

266

And I guess I, I'm, I'm okay with, with

what, with the path that I've chosen.

267

Jeff Melnyk: And there's, there

are some trade offs there, right?

268

Like for you to be the one that's

chosen this path, it's offered you.

269

the greatest responsibility, but

also an element of freedom, right?

270

You aren't beholden, but you've also

been able to make some choices in

271

your own world that have allowed

you to create the business you want.

272

, I feel like, , Jack Hammer has

grown in its own way, but you

273

are now you're a global business.

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, do you feel proud of, of that achievement?

275

Debbie Goodman: Yeah, I mean, I do.

276

And then I also think once again, that

was like a happy accident, you know,

277

because You know, if I have to tell

the truth of it, when I relocated to

278

the U S, I had absolutely no intention

of starting and to do this thing all

279

over again from the ground up when

nobody knew me, nobody cared what I'd

280

done in Africa, that was for sure.

281

And I would have to like do the hard

yards of building again, which is just so.

282

I mean, it's hard, harder and hardest.

283

And so I had thought that , I

would be in the U S and I

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would do something different.

285

And the idea was, well, let's see

what other opportunities might arise.

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One thing led to another

life, life happened.

287

A pandemic happened.

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Other personal stuff happened and I was

like, okay, we're doing this thing again.

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Get that spade and start trenching.

290

Actually get the jackhammer

and start shaking things up.

291

Right,

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Jeff Melnyk: now the name

finds it's true meaning.

293

Right.

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Debbie Goodman: And so Now I reflect

back on, you know, I reflect on

295

the last few years and go, wow,

actually we're a global business.

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That's I mean, as you know some

part of it is semi designed.

297

Some part of it is the path you

find yourself on, and then you

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just seize the opportunities

and some part is just necessity.

299

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, we, I think both of us

want now have chosen a place we want to

300

live and therefore that Necessitates also

where our global footprint will want to

301

be but you found you've got opportunities

in America that that you've Jackhammered

302

to find right like that's part of it But

like it's not easy Debbie to grow the

303

global business as you said, but you but

you're stuck with it You could have gone

304

back To, to South Africa, you didn't,

you didn't turn around, put the brakes on

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and turn around and go back to Cape Town.

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What, what, what made you stick with it?

307

Debbie Goodman: There have been moments

when I have questioned my sanity.

308

Because it's literally been

starting over 20 years after you.

309

Did your first thing and there've been

other businesses in the sort of portfolio

310

that I have initiated and some are still

growing and doing, you know, nicely.

311

So this is not the, you know, growing the

U S division is not the first new thing.

312

There've been several

others along the way.

313

But this has been the biggest

challenge because the market

314

is exceptionally competitive.

315

There are hundreds of thousands

of recruiters out there.

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The market has changed radically in

terms of how we, how we find people

317

to join our companies these days.

318

But every time I thought to

myself, Oh, is this too hard?

319

Should I just put a pin in it?

320

breathe for a bit, or is this

an opportunity to like, let's

321

have some self reflection here.

322

How are we doing?

323

The reasons to keep going are Partly

my personal pride and ego, frankly.

324

It's like I, I'm not giving up on this.

325

This is like not gonna be my story.

326

So there's a bit of that I have to admit.

327

But part of it is I finally feel like

I've got something of substantial

328

value to add to the conversation

around people and hiring and leaders.

329

And even if it's you

know, even if it's small.

330

Currently, compared to some of the other

massively big players in this market,

331

I I'm constantly encouraged by the.

332

People that have interaction with me

and my team here in the U S that, yeah,

333

we've, we've got something special

and something of real value to add.

334

And the feedback that I get is

reassurance to just keep me going.

335

So yeah, it's a no and

definitely not turning around.

336

What?

337

No, that would be, that would be mad, yes.

338

Jeff Melnyk: I mean, that's definitely

from from what I always feel in your

339

energy is that you're tenacious, you're

driven, you want to make those challenges,

340

you want to learn from those challenges,

you want to turn those into success.

341

So I always knew that that was

going to be part of your story.

342

But I was wondering if there was something

that you were starting to learn from the

343

context of growing the business in Africa,

bringing What you've learned to the North

344

American context and the sort of vice

versa around the sort of learnings between

345

two very different business contexts.

346

And if there was some way that actually

what you've learned in your founder

347

journey is now translating into something

really valuable to, to, to the folks that

348

you're meeting here in North America.

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Debbie Goodman: That's such

an interesting question.

350

I, I think, I think that it's

not necessarily just about the

351

growing the business in Africa.

352

You know, we've become the largest

executive search boutique with

353

on the ground people and partners

in all of the main markets.

354

So we've really grown

something substantial there.

355

I think that it's not necessarily about

the business side, but more about my

356

personal and professional style, which

is very high touch and very very, very

357

human, and I think that I mean, it's

interesting cause I'm immersed in a world

358

that is trying to scale through technology

and trying to automate and trying to

359

disintermediate and trying to Do as much

work as possible in the world of people

360

that is not about actual relationships.

361

And I'm pretty steadfast in my desire

to continue to conduct business

362

in a way that really looks after

the humanity of what we're doing.

363

And that may mean that it's slower

and it may mean that That is not

364

necessarily scalable and that it doesn't

have this high volume capability.

365

But I, I really want people to feel cared

for and I want people to feel seen and

366

and we're in a very dehumanized world

of particularly, you know, the hiring

367

recruiting landscape right now is becoming

less and less less and less human.

368

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

369

Debbie Goodman: So.

370

That's a, that's just a an approach

that I will struggle to relinquish.

371

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

372

Debbie Goodman: And it's slower.

373

Certainly, once again, if I had an

investor backing me and they were

374

like, why is this taking so long?

375

I get the choice to go.

376

This is the way I'd like to do it.

377

And I think this is the

differentiator here.

378

I think this is, this is just

what's going to be the foundation

379

of our success in, in this market.

380

Jeff Melnyk: And coming over here was

a little bit also of a challenge for

381

you in that it happened during the

pandemic, and I'm trying in every one

382

of my conversations these days not

to have to come back to the pandemic,

383

and I think that's impossible.

384

I'm just trying to realize the

fundamental shifts and gifts that

385

that time in our world had given us.

386

And so you moved to Southern

California just before the pandemic?

387

Yeah.

388

Yeah.

389

And then suddenly you find yourself

over here and your team is all in

390

Cape Town and and what happened?

391

How you couldn't get back to, to your team

and you're living in a remote world now.

392

How did that feel?

393

Yeah.

394

Debbie Goodman: Okay.

395

So the, the whole deal was

that I was always going to, I

396

relocated here at the end of 2018.

397

So the 2019 was this experiment

in actually working remotely.

398

Remotely fully remotely.

399

And I've been, you know,

I'm a, I'm a rehearser.

400

Okay.

401

I rehearse for things.

402

So three months before I left, I already

took myself out of the office and I

403

went to work at some shared office space

in order to try and figure out what

404

did we need to, what are the things

that we needed to do that we needed to

405

figure out how to do remotely, because

I wasn't going to be in the office.

406

And so we did all of that.

407

And then I, and then I.

408

You know, and then I got

on a plane and I moved.

409

Now, the biggest issue was that

I was going to be nine or 10

410

hours, 10 hours behind everybody.

411

So nobody was going to be able to get

hold of me until like three o'clock

412

in the afternoon, South Africa time.

413

And so it was almost like, do you remember

when we were going to have Y2K and the,

414

like, you're going to put the switch on?

415

It was a bit like that.

416

It was like the day, January the 8th or

something was going to be the day when

417

we were going to see if this all worked.

418

And it actually did.

419

We've, we, I had figured out how

to handle the logistics of things.

420

Remotely, but at that point, 2019

collectively, we, the business world,

421

the working world was not remote.

422

We were not digital.

423

And so I was getting on a plane every

sort of two months from LA to Cape town,

424

which for anybody who does not know

what that trip is like, it is brutal.

425

Jeff Melnyk: It is the world's longest.

426

It's the marathon.

427

I don't care what they say about London.

428

No, Australia.

429

I think that the South coast, yeah.

430

West coast, California to, to

Cape town is the biggest trip.

431

Debbie Goodman: It's a,

it's a trick of note.

432

I did it every two months because I needed

to, I need, you know, we just were not

433

proficient with how we were going to, you

know, do this without seeing clients and

434

seeing my team and doing all the things.

435

And then when I did my last trip

to Cape Town, I think I got back

436

the 20th of February or something,

437

Jeff Melnyk: 2020,

438

Debbie Goodman: 2020, I can tell you,

I was so freaking happy when, when

439

those airports shut down, I was one

of those people who was like, Creative

440

Jeff Melnyk: constraint

enters the business world.

441

You now can't travel, but you've

been building the foundations

442

of working remotely, right?

443

So that felt, yeah.

444

But

445

Debbie Goodman: then everybody went

online and so I could do everything

446

that I needed to do online.

447

As long as I was awake, I could

have all the meetings I wanted.

448

I could, from my.

449

It's from my office, my home office.

450

So for me, it was it was a huge relief.

451

It was a huge enabler.

452

And and I have continued to lead

and run, oversee the business.

453

I have a managing director who runs

the day to day at Vaitha Naidu.

454

She is amazing.

455

Amazing.

456

We have got an incredible partnership.

457

We collaborate really well.

458

We stay in our own lanes.

459

We also rehearsed for that.

460

But that really came to the

fore during during the pandemic.

461

And so I've managed to be the

overall leader of this business

462

and work completely remotely.

463

And retain our culture, retain our values.

464

You know, I don't, I mean, I love

coming to Cape Town and seeing my

465

team and they're all very excited

for like the first 15 minutes and

466

then, you know, it's like, okay.

467

When

468

Jeff Melnyk: is she leaving?

469

Yeah.

470

You, you, you've made it work.

471

This still is, you know,

one of the biggest.

472

quandaries that people come to, to

us to ask about how are we going to

473

retain or enhance our culture when

we're living in a remote hybrid world.

474

I know you're passionate

about this topic as well.

475

I've been on your

podcast to talk about it.

476

It's still, some folks still can't get

it and yet it's given you A great gift

477

because you've been able to not only

have the business you want that continues

478

to thrive, step into new challenges

over here in the West Coast and step

479

into new things for your own life.

480

So what is it that

people don't get Debbie?

481

It's the gift, this gift keeps giving.

482

Debbie Goodman: So yeah, I mean, we could

spend a very long time talking about

483

culture and values and, and all the rest.

484

So there's some basic.

485

Principles, basic business principles.

486

How do we, how do we

do things around here?

487

They were very well entrenched and

a core of our team had spent a lot

488

of time working together in person.

489

That certainly helped when we all

went remote, but we've lost people

490

and we've hired new people and we've

figured out where the specific gaps are

491

that are harder to that are harder to

replicate out of not being in person.

492

For example Certainly the youngest

and sort of more junior staff members,

493

they would benefit tremendously

from being in an office space with

494

hearing other people on the phone.

495

And hearing, you know, I would love to

hear, you know, newbies who are having

496

their first sales calls or having the

first interviews and I'd be having my

497

one ear open and then rush over to their

desk afterwards and you could try it

498

like this, you could try it like that.

499

You could just, I mean,

how on earth are we?

500

Yes, there's Is some technology to do

that, but we figured out that we are

501

going to just have have buddies on calls.

502

And so we knew that there was a gap.

503

How are we going to accelerate the

learning of, of new staff members?

504

And so we, We implemented a

new system and it seems to be

505

working just great, actually.

506

Jeff Melnyk: So take

the ideas from before.

507

I would have walked

across, I'm listening in.

508

I would have walked across the room.

509

You can put that into a remote

scenario, problem solved.

510

Debbie Goodman: Right.

511

But I think it's, it's more

just around the, the real

512

clarity on on what it's like.

513

How we want to deal, deal with the

challenges, interpersonal challenges,

514

the hard conversations, the the

dynamics that eventually, you know,

515

then inevitably creep into teams,

what's okay, what's not okay.

516

I've been very clear about that for,

you know, for a really long time.

517

And then you hone that as you have

to work remotely and digitally.

518

There's certain things I, I,

I believe in very strongly

519

around how to address issues.

520

And I really feel like we've maintained

an incredibly healthy culture, not

521

just healthy, like really amazing.

522

So it's one of the things that I'm

absolutely the proudest of is the,

523

the quality of the inter dynamics

of this team that is pretty self

524

managed for the most part, and then

has got some really good leaders.

525

Jeff Melnyk: And do you think without the

pandemic, that wouldn't have happened?

526

Do you think that, that is it, it

wasn't a gift that's given, that's

527

given you guys a new way of working

together, that's helping people

528

to thrive and including yourself?

529

Debbie Goodman: Look, I think the

flexibility for a large number of the

530

people in our team are our career moms.

531

And for that category in

particular, it's been game changing.

532

We know that.

533

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

534

Debbie Goodman: Then there are other

people who live far away from the office.

535

They don't have to get

into traffic for them.

536

Game changing.

537

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

538

Debbie Goodman: For some people, they

really like being in, in an office space.

539

And so we have an office space, so they

get to come in when they feel like it.

540

For me, I get to love how

many gazillion miles away.

541

And work remotely and Start and,

you know, grow a global offering.

542

I mean, that would never, that

would have been really hard to

543

pull off pre pandemic for sure.

544

The other really amazing gift is that you

know, a lot of people are, you know, throw

545

their hands up in the air when they say,

you wake up at 4am in order to start work?

546

And I'm like, yes, I do.

547

However, I start work at 5am.

548

By 2 p.

549

m.

550

I've worked a full day and then I get

to do this absolutely amazing thing.

551

At this point in my life, I am

having my second act as a dancer.

552

I've taken up competitive ballroom

dancing and so I go to the dance

553

studio every afternoon and I

train for two to three hours.

554

And I am giving it a full go and

I get to do this because of this

555

incredible flexibility that I have.

556

And because yeah, I just managed

to organize my day so that I, you

557

know, it can accommodate that.

558

My kids are in high school.

559

They, you know, they're not around.

560

They're going to get home.

561

I'll be home before they're home.

562

Deal with my inbox.

563

Rinse, repeat, start all over again.

564

I mean, I could never have imagined

that this would ever, ever be possible.

565

And now it is.

566

Jeff Melnyk: So the, in the nine to

five world that you could have inhabited

567

before, there would be no time for you

to have the second act, would there?

568

Debbie Goodman: It would

have been much harder.

569

There are a bunch of life circumstances

that have very fortunately spired or have

570

managed to meet at the right time where

I'm, I'm, you know, I've, my kids are more

571

independent, they're, you know, they're

a little older now, so I'm not doing as

572

much active mothering as I was when they

were younger and, you know, one's driving.

573

I don't even have to

do schlepping anymore.

574

Can't find their

575

Jeff Melnyk: car keys, but they

576

Debbie Goodman: Exactly.

577

They can't find the car keys all the time.

578

So some

579

Jeff Melnyk: active mothering.

580

Debbie Goodman: Yes,

yes, that's that is true.

581

That

582

Jeff Melnyk: may not go away, ever.

583

Debbie Goodman: And then you know,

just being able to have the flexibility

584

and independence and, and also not, I

think the other thing is I'm very open

585

about, I'm not trying to pretend that

I've got the secret hobby on the side

586

and that nobody should know about.

587

I really want, I want the world, I want

my team to know I've got this thing

588

going on and if they're able, you know,

we should all be able to have full lives

589

where we get to work hard and then pursue

hobbies at the right time in our lives.

590

Granted it's hard to do everything

all at once when, you know, when

591

your, your family demands are high,

then you know that there's personal

592

sacrifice, but I'm at a point now

where I've done those hard yards.

593

And yes, I am still very much in startup

and entrepreneur and mode and digging

594

those trenches hard, but also know that

I need to fill my cup in, you know, with

595

other, other interests and passions.

596

And so.

597

And you I'm also aware that I

possibly only get this chance now,

598

Jeff Melnyk: and

599

Debbie Goodman: I'm not

prepared to pass that up.

600

Jeff Melnyk: So, cause other,

other lesser mortals, Debbie,

601

would not step into the act too.

602

They would just go, I'm

growing my business.

603

I want to make it successful.

604

I want to make it successful

here on the West Coast as well.

605

But you're like, no, I want

to, I want this second act.

606

I want to get back to dance.

607

This is the full circle.

608

You've made that happen.

609

And, but what I'm getting from

you and what I've noticed is

610

it's giving you something.

611

It's not taking more of your time.

612

It's fueling you.

613

It's firing things up again.

614

And I think that is the fascinating.

615

Part about when we step into our

passions and our creativity, it creates

616

much more of a space of thriving for

us than, than us feeling like it's

617

taking up or using more of our time.

618

Have you noticed that?

619

Debbie Goodman: Oh, 100%.

620

I mean, over the years, whenever

I would get into stuck mode, and

621

I mean, you know that I believe

in flow, I've written a book.

622

In the flow, taking

mindfulness to work, et cetera.

623

I mean, I believe in flow.

624

I believe in flow states.

625

We can see it around us.

626

And I, and also aware, I'm of

observant enough of the times in my

627

life when things feel very stuck.

628

And every time I'm like, Oh,

we're stuck in that spot again.

629

And just nothing's moving as much

as we want to shake the tree.

630

Everything's just static.

631

I've always gone.

632

Into creative mode, I've taken on some

kind of dance project or I've taken

633

on something creative because we know

the data around this, the moment you

634

activate your creativity, that generates

the energy that helps to shift the stuff

635

that is Currently in, in that static

gluey adhesive mode, it requires a

636

different energy in order to shift things.

637

And so I get this on a, on a daily

basis with my, with my dance.

638

And I also get the dopamine hit every day.

639

So I suppose it's the equivalent of

somebody going for like a really long

640

run and getting their endorphin rush.

641

Exactly.

642

I think

643

Jeff Melnyk: the creativity flow,

the athletic flow, it's got the

644

same impact on, on our, on our

wellbeing state and also just

645

unlocking new fresh ideas for us.

646

But you said before, some people don't.

647

have necessarily the liberty of this

time or flexibility like what advice

648

do you have for them because this

feels so beneficial you've gone back

649

to a passion that you know is yours

I'm sure everybody can tap into that

650

thing they know that is a driver for

them that passion you said hubby before

651

I don't like that word so much yeah I

652

Debbie Goodman: know No, me too.

653

If somebody said, Oh, your, your hobby

is dance, I might give them the middle

654

finger because it's not that at all.

655

It's

656

Jeff Melnyk: not.

657

And everybody who follows Debbie

and knows that dance is not a hobby.

658

This is a professional act.

659

You are very good at this.

660

So it's, it's, but, but what's it, what

advice do you have to get them back to it?

661

Because it's so valuable.

662

Debbie Goodman: You know, I I do believe

that there are times in life where one,

663

where certain sacrifices and compromises

you know, they're choices that we make.

664

If you had said to me when, you know,

many years ago when I was still married,

665

when I, my kids were younger, my family

would have needed much more of me.

666

And I would have said, Most of my

whole was taken up with growing the

667

business, leading the team and my family.

668

And so if you had put dance in the mix,

then it would seriously have been just

669

a you know, a small sideline thing that

I might've done the same as somebody

670

goes to yoga or you know, or the gym.

671

And so sometimes it is about being

alert to the time in our lives

672

when those opportunities present

themselves and it's the right time.

673

So I feel that, you know, this idea,

Oh, we can do it all, that puts one

674

hell of a lot of pressure on people.

675

There are times when actually it's

better to not try and do it all.

676

It's okay to go, yeah, this is,

this is what life is right now.

677

And yes, I would like, I would,

I would prefer it to have a

678

little bit more time for me.

679

And I always recommend that, but that

doing it all, all the time, 100%,

680

that's bullshit, that's a fantasy.

681

And particularly with women, we've been

sold a bit of a lemon, I think, when it

682

comes to this idea of being the perfect

mom and the perfect wife and the perfect

683

the perfect business person and the

perfect worker and the, I mean, good

684

God, that's a damn, a lot of pressure.

685

And then wanting to pursue your, you

know, your interests and your passions

686

on the side, man, that's exhausting.

687

So I don't have great advice

other than don't lose your dream

688

because the time will come.

689

And and that has been a, you

know, just a, a great gift.

690

I didn't imagine that I

would have this chance.

691

And so every time I walk, every day I

walk into the studio, I'm grateful for

692

the fact that I have this chance and also

that I had a very good hip surgeon because

693

I had to get my hips replaced last year.

694

So, you know, some people

get their boobs done.

695

I had my hips done.

696

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah.

697

Hips don't lie.

698

Yeah.

699

Debbie Goodman: Yeah.

700

And so I'm very grateful to my

hip surgeon and and then every

701

day when I leave the studio, I.

702

I think to myself, if I were to

get hit by the proverbial bus on

703

the way home, I'm gonna die happy.

704

Jeff Melnyk: Yeah, but, but if I can

reflect, Debbie, knowing you, you're

705

not someone, you get your head down

and get things done, but you're not

706

someone who puts their head down and

doesn't see into, into the spaces

707

that you're going forward into.

708

And I think you've, you've spoken today

about serendipity, like some things

709

have conspired to allow you this moment.

710

I do think what I see in you is

someone that knows when to spot that

711

the opportunity that the time is now.

712

And I think, I think what I.

713

I know that I coach founders to do is

to get your head up out of the weeds,

714

to see what's out there and to fuel

yourself by those things that are,

715

that are, are the most creatively,

the most creative, the most creative

716

moments to you, because otherwise the,

the, the getting our heads down into

717

the business isn't going to give us.

718

The perspective for what we need to

go forward, and I truly see that in

719

you, you're always up and out, you're

looking for the things, you're seeing

720

what's out there, you, you, you

have your, Your eye on the future.

721

And I think you, you brought

the future closer to you.

722

Debbie Goodman: Well thank you.

723

I mean, I appreciate that.

724

I do think that sometimes it's, there've

been moments particularly last year,

725

I realized that things were kind of

shifting in my, in my business world.

726

I wasn't hearing enough buying signals

from the people that I was speaking to.

727

Oh yeah, we really want to use

your executive search services.

728

And so I, I did what I had, you know,

been schooled to do is speak to customers,

729

find out what their actual needs are.

730

If you're not getting, if you're not

hearing that people want your service

731

or your product, what do they want?

732

What's the missing link here?

733

And so I used that re, I used my rehab

time when I was just had these surgeries.

734

And so I had about eight weeks

when I was not going to be able

735

to train, six to eight weeks.

736

And I was like, okay, I'm going

to, I'm going to, I challenged

737

myself to have 90 customer calls.

738

Jeff Melnyk: Wow.

739

Nine zero.

740

Nine

741

Debbie Goodman: zero.

742

And I was like, I am going to

get to the end of these 90 calls

743

and I'm going to have an answer.

744

I don't know what the answer is yet, but

something's not, there's a, there's a

745

missing piece of the jigsaw puzzle here.

746

And what am I not seeing?

747

What am I not hearing?

748

But if I ask enough questions and

have enough calls and have enough

749

data points, the answer will emerge.

750

And.

751

Almost happened to maybe

call 82 or something.

752

I was like, okay,

753

Jeff Melnyk: I think

754

Debbie Goodman: we have, I think

I've understood that the market is

755

ready for some, well, my market,

which is the venture backed world

756

is ready for something else.

757

And so we launched a new offering.

758

We launched a fractional leaders

offering for venture backed founders

759

who need to hire high level people, but

actually can't afford somebody full time.

760

Or don't.

761

Need them full time or want to try

somebody out before they hire them

762

full time or have a new product that

they want to test out or, I mean,

763

the, the opportunities are endless.

764

And so the moment I started speaking

about this fractional leader offering,

765

boom, the buying signals were there.

766

I was like, Oh, thank God.

767

That was, that was a heavy lift, but we

got there and and then literally rolled

768

that out within, within a few weeks.

769

And that's the cool thing about as

well, you know, having, you know,

770

being, having, having the independence

and freedom is I don't have a board

771

that a formal board to, I have to ask

permission or budget or strategic change.

772

I could literally write the website,

get it up and start selling in a week.

773

And so

774

Jeff Melnyk: the other founders paradox,

she can make her own website, she can

775

write her own books, she can do it all.

776

That's what happens, isn't it?

777

But, but I think in that story is

like, back to what you're saying that

778

human touch that you have, what is

it that people most need right now?

779

You're always on the on the next

trend in your own sector, but also for

780

for all of us working in this space.

781

And you found that thing.

782

I know we're almost out of time.

783

And I could keep talking to you forever.

784

And I still I still have one

more round of questions for you.

785

But very quickly, because this notion of

the fractional leader, this is important.

786

This is something that's, that's not

only needed in the world right now,

787

but isn't is quite in hot demand.

788

What why is it that we need this, right?

789

Debbie Goodman: We are in a world

Where the idea that you would be

790

surrounded by a leadership team,

and I'm just talking leaders, right?

791

Cause that's the world that I, that I

know that we would have a, a leadership

792

team that would be in our office with

us and we'd all be sitting around

793

the boardroom table holding hands

from eight to five or whatever it is.

794

That is an outdated model.

795

We are hybrid.

796

Or remote.

797

We work with people who are not

necessarily even working in the same city.

798

We are optimizing for

affordability as well as talent.

799

And we have options.

800

And we can hire people who can.

801

Can be optimal in not necessarily

100 percent full time in the same

802

office altogether all the time.

803

That is, if you, if you just think

about that, I mean, it's an idea we

804

discussed previously that a few years

ago, that was the only way we worked.

805

The idea was that there would

be the CEO and their C suite

806

all together all the time.

807

I mean, where on earth does

that happen these days?

808

Maybe some places, but none that I know.

809

Jeff Melnyk: It's no longer the reality.

810

Debbie Goodman: Yeah.

811

And so, and, and with everybody

being super cost conscious, as

812

well as thinking about how they

might be able to employ people.

813

In a way that that suits the, you know,

that suits the employee or the contractor

814

as well, who might want flexibility.

815

We've just got so many different options.

816

And so fractional is not the only option.

817

It's part of a bigger.

818

Talent model and you know, we've been

speaking about the gig economy and how

819

that's the way, the way of the future.

820

I think we've, you know, we know about

gig workers, part time workers, et cetera.

821

But the idea of having people in a

leadership team that would also be

822

some of them or all of them, usually

it's, it's not everybody, but it's

823

usually a few you know, a couple of

people within a, within a leadership

824

team that might actually be only a few.

825

Part time, particularly for smaller

companies, particularly for companies

826

that are very cost conscious.

827

That is a no brainer these days.

828

Jeff Melnyk: And there's going

to be a lot of resistance to it.

829

And Debbie, you are going to lead the

charge at the benefit and the value of it.

830

I just think it sparks a whole new

way of thinking about how the business

831

can be run, innovation, different

ways of, of seeing your business grow.

832

So very excited to see

where that goes for you.

833

So, so that's.

834

New and out from Jack Hammer, as well

as your podcast is still going strong.

835

Are we, some hot episodes this,

836

Debbie Goodman: On Work and Revolution

is still going very strong actually.

837

We were going to do like sort of once a

month and then it became twice a month.

838

And now I feel like we're just like an

every week thing, mostly because I've

839

got such amazing people to speak to

and then I want to interview them all.

840

And so yeah, that's going really strong.

841

I think I should the name for On Work

and Revolution, actually my, my she

842

was then 14 year old, came up with

the name and she, yeah, my daughter

843

and she, she got her first copy

writing check for coming up with the

844

royalties and now she wants royalties.

845

Yeah.

846

So like, Hey, this podcast has

been going for two years now.

847

Respect the

848

Jeff Melnyk: IP, mom.

849

You're like, where are my

royalties for raising you?

850

Right.

851

Yeah.

852

Debbie, this has been great.

853

I've got one final set of questions

really quickly for you, which I'm

854

calling the Founders Rapid Fire 5.

855

So I want you to tap into your

inner founder wisdom with these five

856

questions, and I want you to just

Share a pearl of insight from your gut.

857

So I have not sent you these questions.

858

I know for some folks that causes

severe anxiety, but I know you

859

can you can tap in with this.

860

So there are no right answers to these.

861

And I just want to see what

reflections you might have.

862

You ready to go?

863

Debbie Goodman: All right, let's go.

864

Let's hit it.

865

Jeff Melnyk: Where do you

get your freshest ideas?

866

Podcasts or books?

867

Debbie Goodman: Podcasts.

868

Jeff Melnyk: Which leader

has inspired you most?

869

Debbie Goodman: Hmm, hmm,

870

Jeff Melnyk: pass.

871

I'll come around again.

872

I'll let you percolate and

then Emily can edit that out.

873

Gen Z.

874

Hope or hassle.

875

Finish this sentence.

876

If I could do one thing differently

in my business, it would be

877

Debbie Goodman: Emily, you're going to

have to add this to this one as well.

878

If I could do one thing differently

in my business, it would be I'm

879

trying to think of all the things.

880

One thing.

881

Hmm.

882

Okay.

883

I have on occasion settled for mediocrity.

884

Jeff Melnyk: So we would settle for a

higher bar, or we wouldn't settle for a

885

Debbie Goodman: lower bar?

886

Oh no, I mean, a value of ours

is performed to win, so that

887

is just completely not okay.

888

Yeah.

889

Jeff Melnyk: Good.

890

I, I support you on that conviction.

891

Okay.

892

Debbie Goodman: And, and you

want to go back to the leader

893

who has inspired me most?

894

Okay.

895

I'm gonna think of who's in my, who's

in my, sitting in my favorites, who's

896

also not entirely politically incorrect.

897

I really liked Sheryl

Sandberg at one point.

898

What

899

Jeff Melnyk: happened to Sheryl?

900

So we liked Sheryl.

901

She, Sheryl was inspiring?

902

Debbie Goodman: She was inspiring

at one moment, and then it all

903

became a little bit a little shabby.

904

Well, she had some

905

Jeff Melnyk: personal

things happen, didn't she?

906

Oh, oh,

907

Debbie Goodman: Brene Brown is

like the most inspiring, for sure.

908

Okay, Brene.

909

We can

910

Jeff Melnyk: do that one again.

911

So, so, okay.

912

Which leader has inspired you most?

913

Debbie Goodman: Without

a doubt, Brene Brown.

914

Jeff Melnyk: What is it about Brené?

915

Debbie Goodman: Well, she manages

to combine both this incredible

916

wit and sense of humor and down to

earthness with incredible wisdom.

917

Jeff Melnyk: I think she

needs to be on your podcast.

918

So let's manifest that.

919

Final cue in our Founders Rapid Fire 5.

920

What one person do you want to thank

today for your founder journey?

921

Debbie Goodman: You know,

I'm gonna thank Colin Bullen.

922

Who is the, the client that

gave me my very first chance.

923

He still stays in touch

with me on LinkedIn.

924

And I have no, I still have

no idea why he believed in me.

925

Cause I, I mean, I had no

references and no nothing to back

926

up what I promised to deliver.

927

So it was sheer belief and

trust and taking a chance.

928

And for that, I'm eternally grateful.

929

Jeff Melnyk: Oh, well done, Colin.

930

There's, there's one in every journey

or two or three or four or ten.

931

So that's awesome that, that you're still

in touch with him, because I think that

932

always makes you remember, doesn't it?

933

Yeah,

934

Debbie Goodman: yeah, totally.

935

And, and why I'm some, you know,

I'm also willing to, if I believe

936

in somebody and I think they've got

the passion and the drive, I'm going

937

to give them a chance for sure.

938

Jeff Melnyk: Debbie,

this has been delightful.

939

Thank you so much for being on the show.

940

So much more to dig into.

941

I'm, Very excited for our next Coffee

Together, where hopefully we also

942

might manifest Chris Hemsworth again.

943

That was one of my favorite

moments of our journey together.

944

One of the benefits of your Manhattan

Beach experience as well is you

945

just might bump into a Hemsworth.

946

It's long may it rain.

947

What's next on the dancing

before we let you go?

948

Do we have a competition coming up?

949

Debbie Goodman: Oh, yes.

950

The competition season is upon us.

951

I'm performing in Beach Bash

in April and then it's May and

952

June, July, August, September.

953

All the way to September when is

the US Dance Championships, so,

954

Jeff Melnyk: yeah.

955

Best of luck for that.

956

We'll be watching out for you

on Instagram and it's been a

957

delight, so thank you so much.

958

Debbie Goodman: This has been so much fun.

959

.

Jeff Melnyk: Thanks for listening, everyone.

960

You can hear Debbie's podcast on work

and revolution on Apple and Spotify,

961

or hop over to DebbieGoodmanLeadership.

962

com to get in touch directly with her.

963

Tune into our podcast for more episodes

on what's happening in the culture

964

and leadership space, what's on the

minds of the leaders committed to

965

change in our community, and other

future work content that you crave.

966

Reimagining work from within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.