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The Rising Tide of Invasive Species: How Pet Nutrition Could Be a Solution
Episode 62 • 3rd September 2025 • Barking Mad • BSM Partners
00:00:00 00:55:09

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Invasive fish and marine animals are wreaking havoc on local waterways, economies, and even taking a toll on recreational fishing and boating, but a new wave of innovators is flipping the script. In this episode of Barking Mad, Dr. Stephanie Clark and Jordan Tyler dive into the wild world of invasive species—and how they might just be the next novel proteins in pet nutrition. From Asian carp in the Midwest to green crabs in New England and lionfish in the Gulf, meet the entrepreneurs and innovators turning ecological chaos into sustainable, nutrient-rich pet food. It’s part science, part strategy, and all about reimagining where we get our protein to feed the growing population of pets and people alike.

Helpful Links

🐟 Learn more about the rebrand from Asian carp to Silver copi: https://wildlifemanagement.institute/outdoor-news-bulletin/august-2022/if-you-cant-beat-em-eat-em-illinois-rebrands-invasive-asian-carp#

📖 Read about the invasive species opportunity (and the challenges) from Dr. Stephanie Clark: https://bsmpartners.net/insights/untapped-potential-navigating-the-murky-waters-of-invasive-species-in-pet-food/

Get the scoop on the brands and companies featured in today's episode!👇

🧪 Read more about fish fraud from this University of Singapore study: https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/marine-science/articles/10.3389/fmars.2022.836941/full

🌱 Tune in to our previous sustainability episodes

Show Notes

00:00 – Inside the Episode

01:24 – What Are Invasive Species?

05:00 – Introducing Brands Working with Invasives

14:49 – Asian Carp: A Copious Catastrophe

18:49 – The Devil Fish: Armored Catfish Causing Trouble

20:23 – Lionfish: A Beautiful Nuisance

22:12 – Green Crab: The Kelp Killers

23:59 – Putting Invasive Fish to Better Use: The Nutritional Merits

30:40 – Caution: More Research Needed!

32:42 – Swimming Upstream: Barriers for Turning Invasives into Food

37:37 – The Catch 22 of Sustainable Fishing Certifications

41:26 – Change is Hard: How to Get Pet Owners On Board

46:24 – The Future of Invasive Species in Pet Nutrition

52:31 – Today’s Key Takeaways

Transcripts

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Fish that walk to hunt? Jumping fish that can knock you unconscious? If you think this is the beginning of a pirate's tale, think again. This is the strange reality of aquatic invasive species.

Jordan Tyler: Aquatic invasive species can come in all shapes, sizes, and abilities that can make them a threat to the environment, but also, they could be a nutritious and sustainable protein source for pet food.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: There are more than 6,500 invasive species established across the United States, and approximately 42% of threatened or endangered species are at risk due to invasive species.

Jordan Tyler: So, what can the pet food industry do to get involved? Grab your snorkel because we're taking the plunge into the deep to look at how some of these invasives are being used for good.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Welcome to Barking Mad, a podcast by BSM Partners. We’re your hosts, Dr. Stephanie Clark—

Jordan Tyler: —and I’m Jordan Tyler. So, let's start just by hashing out what is an invasive species. So essentially, an invasive species is one that is not native to that area, and it's been introduced to a region for some kind of purpose. It doesn't have to be a fish, it can be an animal, it can be a bug, it can be a disease, a parasite, a plant. There are just a handful of invasive marine species that we're finding out could be really great for pet food and for human food too (but more on that later).

These fish are outperforming native fish. They're eating everything so that the native fish don't have anything to eat and they're dying off. Some of them even eat the native fish or just kind of destroy their habitats so that we're getting out of whack, that we're losing balance in our marine ecosystems.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And I think it's more than ecosystems, right? It’s affecting people's livelihoods. Some of the aquatic invasive species that we're going to talk about in this episode actually impact fishermen, like local fishermen are going out of business because these fish are eating their catch.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah. Really decimating the livelihoods of people who have fished for generations. That's their livelihood. It's sad to see. It's also the local economies are suffering because of this.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah. In the Midwest, people don't like to go boating if there is a potential that you're going to get smacked in the head by a carp and potentially knocked unconscious or knocked off your boat.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah. And it is interesting to think about, so some of these invasive species are introduced on purpose to like control other populations of like bugs or something or other and they just kind of get out of hand, right? We lose control of the species that we introduced and they become so destructive to the environment that they have invaded, which is I guess where we get the name invasive species.

But as Stephanie said earlier, some of them can even travel on their own. So, they can travel through like things like hurricanes and floods to, you know, expand their reach, expand their invasion. Some get picked up by birds and then are dropped elsewhere and then that's their new home and they start to populate that area. Some have been released from aquariums, and then some literally can jump out of the water and hit you on your boat, potentially hijack a ride on that boat. Some of them can even walk.

I was like immediately transported to, to Dr. Seuss. One fish, two fish?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah. He's predicting the future.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah. I was like, what did you know, Doctor, that we didn't know?

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And some may even be released by the government. Dun, dun dun. No, just kidding. Total rumor. But I mean, this is how crazy it gets. Because they just, they can be really anywhere by any means. We'll take, you know, the lionfish for example. Hurricane Katrina supposedly, you know, knocking them into the ocean and boom, they take off. But in addition to the lionfish, again, we talked about Asian carp. These are the carps that smack you in the head. And then we've got green crab. And I didn't know about green crab until we actually did this episode. And now I'm like, they're like the ticks of the sea. They are everywhere.

Jordan Tyler: Truly. I had no idea it was such a problem.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, let's get to know some of these most wanted criminals of our rivers, lakes, and oceans.

Jordan Tyler: We'll go first to Gabe Huertas del Pino, CEO and Co-Founder of Archway Pet. Archway creates novel protein diets for pets using insect protein and invasive species to make a positive impact on both the planet and pet health.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: So, Archway is a reference to like being a gateway to new proteins or a gateway to your pet's health. This whole thing started, like I mentioned, sort of with my own pet, and I built a business plan and at the time we were looking at insect proteins—and we still use insect proteins. It's a wonderful protein, it's amazingly sustainable and it does the food sensitive job, which is also wonderful.

Very early on we realized that we could have a hundred insect SKUs or we could have different levels of sustainability and acceptance per protein. Like why should we limit ourselves to one novel protein? So, the idea was that we should have multiple—the invasive species concept came to mind really early on and carp was just like, it's a local problem. So, I'm in Chicago, we actually catch our fish not too far from here. Let's solve this local problem, see if it fits. And it was such a home run and people really resonated with it.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, similar to like insect protein or insects in pet food as an ingredient, invasive species also needs to develop infrastructure. Yes, it's all over, right? We talked about how it's destroying ecosystems, and so really getting into how can we scale this up, how can we utilize this in pet?

Jordan Tyler: And this is where Brian Colgan comes in, President and Founder of Colgan Carp Solutions and Government Relations Director for the Great Lakes Division of HTBN, a sustainable infrastructure firm.

Brian Colgan: After graduating college, I decided to move out to [Washington] DC, change the world and, you know, make everything a better place. And, you know, started a job answering phones. And it was really soon after I started that our legislative director came out and said, “Does anyone know about this Asian carp fish?” That started more of a 15- to 20-year journey for me professionally, learning about the fish.

And so started in DC doing policy work, working with the Army Corps of Engineers, our local mayors and everyone on what's the best strategy to keep the fish out of the Great Lakes. And then we started tracking it more and more and, kind of through the process over these 15 years, was involved in helping build three electric barriers in the waterways to keep the fish from the Great Lakes because if they get into the Great Lakes, it could be a $7 billion hit to the regional economy. And so, kind of wore a bunch of different hats along the way doing policy work. Within each of these roles, the fish kind of kept following me and felt I could do a lot more.

When I left government, I said, “Okay,” kind of put my money where my mouth is, “I feel like there's more we can do.” And so, to help support and compliment a lot of the work being done by the Army Corps and by the state of Illinois, saw that we needed a market-driven solution to help with invasive species management. At the end of the day, it's a fish, right? So, what can we turn that great fish into and how would we better understand how to market the fish and use it for things? And now, you know, we know it's a highly nutritious kind of Omega-3 superfood with great protein. And so, how can we now use that and turn that into something to not only, you know, feed people, cats, dogs, and the like, but also protect the environment.

Jordan Tyler: So, while folks like Gabe and Brian are focused on the Asian carp problem, we also have people working on the southern side of the country and even in Mexico to reduce the prevalence of invasive marine species. Let's chat with Mike Mitchell, Co-Founder and CEO at Pezzy Pets. Mike is taking other invasive species like devilfish (armored catfish, but devilfish is more fun to say) and lionfish in the United States and Mexico, and turning these invasives into limited ingredient traits for pets.

Mike Mitchell: I've always been interested in fisheries issues, aquaculture, ever since high school really. Graduated college, started working in tech, definitely not aquaculture related, but I started working for Clean Fish, which was a sustainable fish consultancy brokerage here in San Francisco. It’s pretty cool, gave me access to some pretty unique fish farmers and fishermen and all sorts of cool stories, and that kind of led me down a path into aquaculture and small-scale fishing. I moved to Guatemala, and then I was in Mexico doing fish farming related stuff.

And then eventually in Mexico, I had a Fulbright research scholarship to study the socioeconomic impact of small-scale fish farming. And that's when I came across the invasive devilfish or armored catfish. They just call it the devil in Mexico because of all the problems that it causes. And that was kind of my entry into this invasives world. I copied what people had done before with the lionfish or silver carp, and just started working with chefs to promote the consumption of the fish. I would give little nerdy science talks in these towns and they would do the fun gastronomy part, and it snowballed from there.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Can we just talk about invasive species and limited ingredients real fast? So, I think it's really compelling to talk about limited ingredients and novel ingredients. We have a lot of animals that may have intolerance or even owners who don't care for a certain type of protein source. So, I think the opportunity for this to scale into not just over-the-counter [foods] and fun treats and helping the ecosystem, but also into veterinary care. This could potentially lead to novel treats that we can give pets that maybe are a little bit more sensitive to things.

Jordan Tyler: I think that's an interesting takeaway, because there's a lot of pet parent days that are looking for limited ingredient, they're looking for, you know, novel proteins, quote unquote hypoallergenic diets, which we get into a little bit in the Holistic Nutrition episode if you want to head over there and take a listen. But just because a pet has maybe a sensitive tummy doesn't mean they still shouldn't have yummy treats to eat. So, I'm all for that. Treats for all.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Treats for all! So is Deb Suchman, the Co-Founder and Co-Owner of Polka Dog Bakery, which crafts handmade, all natural and limited ingredient treats in Boston using the infamous green crab.

d Cod Skins and it was around:

And so invasive, we had heard about green crab. My business partner, Robert, read an article and he had forwarded it to me. And, you know, it took some time. We could get whole green crab, but we didn't have any equipment to like break that down and just make a mince out of it. And so, for a period of time we were interested in green crab, but we just, it didn't come in a form—and this was a barrier for us—where we could utilize it. And so, Mark approached us at one point and he let me know that like there they were making green crab mince. So, we jumped on that, we thought it was a great opportunity. And that's, you know, that's how we started getting involved with green crab.

Jordan Tyler: To get a little more color on what it’s like to work with green crab and invasive species in the New England area, we’ll pass the mic to Mark McDevitt, Sales Coordinator at Channel Fish Co., a seafood supplier for both the human and pet food industries that happens to dabble in invasive species.

Mark McDevitt: Primarily what we do is upcycle fish parts, so heads, frames, tails—we collect those and trimmings from cutting houses locally around New England and globally. We're sourcing some from Europe and from all over the US and for wherever there's a responsible and sustainable supply is where we're grabbing it from.

Primarily used in wet pet food recipes—so canned cat food, canned dog food—but we are in some—folks are using our products in some dry foods kibble, you know, so we're trying to use the whole fish, otherwise these parts get recycled or, you know, tossed into a compost or landfill or dumped back out to sea in some cases.

But the invasive species side has been something Channel Fish has been working with for a number of years, starting with the green crab and the Chesapeake Bay blue catfish specifically, trying to use those as a sustainable resource in pet food has been our goal.

Jordan Tyler: Okay, now that we’ve tested the waters a bit and learned more about our cast of characters for today, let’s go back to Asian carp. How did fish end up in so many of our waterways, and what is it really doing that’s causing such a problem? Let's hear from Brian first about how Asian carp even got here in the first place.

is fish was introduced in the:

And so, this fish eats everything in sight and reproduces like crazy. So, in the Illinois River alone, it's between 70% and 90% of the biomass of the Illinois River, which has crowded out native fish, it's disrupting the ecosystem. It’s literally, it's taking over every waterway. And so, it’s devastating.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: It's also devastating to the livelihood of fishermen across the US.

Brian Colgan: When you sit and talk to fishermen and you ask them, how'd you get into fishing? And they say, you know what? My dad did, you know, used to take me out on the water. We had our own little restaurant or shop that doesn't exist anymore because this fish has crowded out all other native fish. And so, we used to have a really vibrant commercial fishing industry in Illinois on freshwater fish. And what we've we're seeing is, you know, it's not really there as robust as it as it used to be. So it's, I mean, it's definitely an economic and ecological hit to a lot of these communities.

Jordan Tyler: They also kind of have a record of personal assault, according to Gabe and Brian.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: So, there's like tons of videos of them, like, jumping up and like hitting people and little kids. It's actually like, when we talk about the ecological damage and what the carp is doing, there's a really good argument that, like, the way that they jump is actually damaging recreational fishing because, like, maybe if you're taking your boat for a spin, you don't want to get hit by a carp. So, like, it reduces the industry. It's not a small fish, and like, they jump a lot. I don't want to put a number on like the feet, but enough to hit people in the face. So, like if you're six feet tall, they can jump at least six feet. And if you're driving like 20 miles per hour in a boat, they break noses and arms and shoulders—like, it's a thing.

Brian Colgan: It gets startled when it hears the motor of an engine, and so if you think about not only the ecological, but the tourism impact and everything else that happens with this fish, you know, do I really want my 11-year-old son out on a jet ski or doing something in the river system like we could have growing up? Um, no, because it's a 20-pound fish that jumps out of the water and can smack you.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Now, you've just been carped.

Jordan Tyler: Asian carp has not only taken a hit out on the planet, not only on your 11-year-old son, but also the economy.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: It's $11 billion in local fishing. So that's, like, the pike, the whitefish, fish that are caught in the Great Lakes and in the Mississippi. That's the ecosystem that they're really, really worried is at stake. The population of Asian carp have not yet hit the Great Lakes. So, this is the big fear. It's the specter, it's the boogeyman. They've gotten really close. It seems like it gets an inevitability and every state is bracing for what it's going to do to their local fishing systems. But it's like this unstoppable fish force that is wreaking havoc everywhere it goes.

Jordan Tyler: So, Asian carp is not only threatening freshwater ecosystems, it’s also taking a toll on the fishing and recreational boating industries in the Midwest. There’s a lot at stake here, and we’ll come back to the Asian carp question a little later, but for now, let’s head on down to the Gulf of Mexico to talk about an invasive salt-water species running amuck in those waters. Let's go to Mike to learn a little bit more about the devilfish.

Mike Mitchell: So, the devilfish, armored catfish again, is a freshwater fish originally from South America. It's been invasive in Mexico for 20, 25 years. It's also pretty invasive in places like Florida, Puerto Rico, Central America. And what it really does is it outcompetes native fish species, so for resources as well as space, and then it actually eats the eggs of some of the native fish species, like cichlids, like the tilapias of the world, that lay their eggs in algae and plant matter and stuff on rocks and in the river bottom.

So, in a lot of places that we operate, the devilfish now counts for about 70%, maybe up to 80% of the wild fish capture. And because they're just kind of wiping out a lot of the native species and then there's no local market, or at least not strong enough for the volume that people are capturing.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: But for real, the conspiracy behind the devilfish…

Jordan Tyler: Kind of crazy, like people think it's like cursed in Mexico. It's like a cultural phenomenon. People are super passionate about it. They think it's literally like poisoned and they won't eat it. And so, Mike is really serving to help change the stigma, and I know he's not the only one, but he's also not only focusing on devilfish, because lionfish are also a huge problem in the area.

And you know, I think it's kind of funny that devilfish are like, “Ah, the devil!” And then lionfish—I don't know if you've ever seen a photo of a lionfish, but they're quite beautiful fish to look at. And I was kind of sad to learn that they are invasive and really hurting the coastal ecosystems off of Florida and Mexico as well.

Mike Mitchell: So, yeah, lionfish for us is a really, it's a sexy fish because a lot of people know about it, but it's a very difficult fish to capture, especially at scale. So, we scuba dive and spear each one individually. And so, I look at it as really like an economic game of like how to maximize the value of each fish to incentivize these folks to go out and capture them.

's, I call it like cod in the:

Jordan Tyler: Are you seeing a trend? Whether it’s the Asian carp, devilfish or lion fish, these invasive marine species are outcompeting native fish to the point of extinction, and this lack of balance has a ripple effect for the planet and for people.

For now, let’s head north, all the way back up to New England with Deb to get some more on how green crab showed up there, and why it’s so damaging to the environment.

Deb Suchman: It's green crab. It's not native to North America. It came over in the 18 hundreds from Europe, they think through, like, the ballasts of ships. And so now you have this species that is landed in North America and it—well, now it's like considered the most marine invasive species there is.

It destroys habitats. It eats, I mean, it eats kelp. It eats like everything, and it has no predators. And so, they're just rapidly, you know, populating the waters, especially, you know, of the New England shores, so it's become a real problem. It's a global problem, but it's become a huge problem locally for us as well.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, let's talk about these tiny crabs and how they can pose such a massive problem to the kelp forests and for the natural ecosystem. And according to Mark, kelp plays an important role in protecting native species that have long been fished for commercial sale.

Mark McDevitt: There are great, amazing folks working along the coast here and in Maine for kelp, and the green crabs just ruining kelp fields. You know, there’s actual, legitimate science that 75% of oxygen coming from kelp forests is negatively impacted directly by the green crab. So, it is not just an issue that you're not going to be able to get that specific minnow or striper that you used to. You're just going to have a serious impact on the global environment. So, the more we can do to protect the kelp, the better.

Jordan Tyler: Obviously, these invasive species have pretty significant negative impacts on the environment, on our economy, on people's livelihoods. So, why aren't we trying to find better ways to use them? Right? It's one thing to cull, basically catch as many of these fish as you can and kill them and throw them in a pile and just let them rot. But why would we do that when we could make better use of them? Because they have some interesting nutritional value as well, so let’s get into that.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Starting with Mark and the blue catfish.

Mark McDevitt: It's technically a white fish according to AAFCO and the FDA. So, the protein and the moisture and the fat and the ash levels that you'll see on this are comparable to any other whitefish that you use that mostly, you know, cod or haddock, so there's no drop off. You're not going to lose anything by going with the blue catfish.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Is the blue catfish different than any catfish? Probably.

Jordan Tyler: There's something really weird about catfish and the way that it's regulated. So, when we talked to Mike, he mentioned that catfish actually is not regulated as fish…

Mike Mitchell: In the US, for all our wisdom and glory, catfish is actually treated as a meat, not as a fish. So, it's run by the USDA. I won’t go too much into the weeds, but it stems from a decades-long trade war with mainly Vietnam, but really Asian countries and the farming of catfish. So, places like Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, they have a robust catfish farming industry of what we would call our standard catfish, the American catfish, channel catfish.

Over the last 30 years, they've seen market share just erode precipitously from cheaper imports of Vietnamese catfish, which you can't call catfish actually anymore, so now it's called Basa or Swai. So, they tried a few different things and then eventually what the Catfish Association of America did is they lobbied for catfish to be considered or fall under USDA jurisdiction instead of FDA. And so, in order for us to import raw catfish, even though our fish is one of 3,000 species of catfish and doesn't look or taste or feel anything like these catfish in the catfish wars, we are nonetheless collateral damage.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah, at the end of the day, it really just makes things super complicated for catfish and pet food.

Jordan Tyler: Right? Like it has cat in the name already, just... Just kidding. Just kidding.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Catfish is cat, not fish. Just kidding.

Jordan Tyler: Okay, getting back on track, let’s go over to Deb and the green crab to hear what nutritional merits this invasive may have for our pets.

Deb Suchman: I think there could be a supplement connection for sure. Because crab has so many benefits in general, like the green crab is similar to other crab species where it's high in Omega-3 fatty acids. Omega-3 fatty acids, like as most people probably know by now, are great for like skin and coat. They're great for brain function as well, and joints and all of those things. So, that's a really great component.

It has good protein, it's low in fat. There are also good sources of zinc and copper. There's like very low mercury levels as well. So, it has a lot of good benefits. And I do think too, like when you talk about sustainability. It's great that it's sustainable, but I think those health benefits are really important to highlight when you educate about the product.

Jordan Tyler: The potential supplement connection is interesting, I think, because what are we trying to do by incorporating invasive species into pet nutrition? To add function and value to something that is pretty destructive to our way of life. And why do we give supplements to pets? Because we want to add function and value to our furry children, whom we love and cherish as a central part of our lives. It’s just a good two birds-one stone situation that we should absolutely work to capitalize on.

But now that we know a little bit more about some of these other species, let's come back to the carp. According to Brian and Gabe, nutrition and taste are both on the table for this fish.

Brian Colgan: This fish offers a hypoallergenic, Omega-3-rich option that can and should be used by humans and by pet owners. And so, I think there's a really good conversation there about the benefits, the nutritional benefits that we should lean in on, and not be shy about talking about.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: It sells itself. By that I mean, like, nutritionally it's near identical to salmon. So, like awesome proteins, natural place that has Omega fats. Very lean form of protein and high form of calcium. But then like, yeah, you have the sustainability story, which is like, hmm!

And this is the last thing, is like, what are we replacing, right? Like, you're trying to get people to go maybe from salmon or like a whitefish diet to trying the carp or something else. Not to like point fingers aggressively at the other fish brands in the world, but there is like a fascinating amount of fish fraud. You can see this like these articles about how like people are putting all sorts of fish—there's a University of Singapore study from I think like two or three years ago where they found 200 different species, I want to say, of fish over the course of, like, different products, including endangered species, including, like, things that aren't fish. And then when you look at like the factory farm stuff… and we're offering a whole freshly caught wild fish. Pretty good.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And catching a ride on that Mississippi, we will head south again to Mike and his armored catfish or devilfish. He says they are super high in protein while also really low in fat, which is great for pets. But what about lionfish?

Mike Mitchell: Lionfish is more like a typical marine fish. It's got the higher fat content, and so because that it also has much higher Omega-3s. It's a considered a good source for Omegas.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah, so higher in fat content again, which means it's going to be higher in Omega-3s, but going to need to be careful about that vitamin D content.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: How spicy do we want to get?

Jordan Tyler: Give it to me spicy.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I mean, we can talk about this, we can add this in wherever, but I mean, we're talking about nutrition in these invasive species, but are safety studies done? Do we do testing on them? Do we actually know nutritionals, right? I mean, we know fish has Omega-3s, but does it also have mercury? Does it have toxins? What is the amount of vitamin D in these fish? Do they even have vitamin D? Because that is a huge misconception with fish. We think fish, high vitamin D, but catfish actually have a very, very, very low amount of vitamin D. So, do we know enough about these blue fish or the devil fish? “Blue fish”—blue catfish, one fish, two fish—to really know enough about formulating as a nutritionist. That's what I kind of think of. I mean, by all means, I really want this to work out and I hope it does. But you kind of almost have to do the research, not kind of, you should do the research. Not kind of—you should do the research! You kind of have to put that money where the catfish is.

Jordan Tyler: Totally, yeah. I mean that's something that we say all the time, not just with, you know, more novel proteins. Some of the ingredients that we've been using for decades, still could use more research behind them. Not just ingredients, but just, you know, formulations as well. And so I think that'll be really key to this kind of invasive species movement in the pet nutrition space actually taking off because people are going to ask critical questions about the nutrition and the health benefits, and we really need, you know, peer-reviewed data, real studies with real animals to be able to nail that down.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Yeah. Anyway, not to crap all over carp. It's just something I think about that we know a lot about the nutrition of them, but we don't know everything and we can always earn to learn more.

Jordan Tyler: Totally.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: But Jordan, let's dig in deeper onto why the adoption of invasive species and pet food is the equivalent of swimming upstream. You know, according to Gabe, the main issue for Asian carp is figuring out how to fish at a commercial scale on the Mississippi River. So, the infrastructure could be an issue.

Jordan Tyler: Shocker. I'm sure everybody's shocked.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: The barriers aren't just like the technical quality of the fish. The bigger barrier is the fact that there's no infrastructure for fishing on, like, the Mississippi. When we were on the boat, we were saying like, “What did you all used to do?” And no one would say, “I was a fisherman of X or of catfish.” They're all like, “We're brand new to this. We live locally. And, like, we saw a job post for a fisherman and we were like, ‘I do that in my free time. I could probably do this, like, now.’” Something's being built to capture carp, right now in real time. That didn't exist five years ago, which is super cool if you think about it. Like, they're building docks, they're attempting to, like, contain the problem.

Having said all that, the other thing, and this is like part of that growing pain—the existing fisheries that were around were not targeting carp. So, like, when they catch a carp, you're having to teach them that there's value in it when there used to be none. It would be like the equivalent of pulling a boot out of the water previously. They'd pull it out and they'd be like, “Ah, shucks, more carp.” And they found weird uses for it. They would sell it as, like, chum. They would sell it for aquaculture so it would find itself at other fish farms. Fertilizer. They were just, like, getting rid of it. And now we're like, “Actually, we'll pay you for it. Like we want that fish—catch more of them.” That's how we solve the problem, and we're reframing a thought.

Jordan Tyler: I was legitimately shocked to learn there's really not fishing infrastructure on the Mississippi River. I guess I just always assumed that like big river equals fishing and I don't know.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Well, and I guess I was surprised too. Because in my brain I'm like, fish is fish. If you have a fish processing plant, can't all fish be processed there? But no, I guess not.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah. So, while the Asian carp fish is absolutely abundant, way too many of them in our waterways, we haven't been fishing for it historically. So now we're having to come around to the idea that, okay, these fish need their own infrastructure. We need to fish for them. And fishermen can actually make money from catching these fish.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: But what about the main challenges with green crab?

Mark McDevitt: So, it's not necessarily either more expensive to source. Uh, there just may not be as many people fishing for them. The green crab raw material is one of the more expensive ones that we purchase. It's the whole crab, often live. So, the cost of that raw material is a bit more expensive, which does translate to a higher price on the manufacturers. And, you know, for us, the wear and tear on the machines producing the green crabs and basically de-shelling them and taking the usable product and freezing that, the yield is about 65%, 68%?

So, we're buying 10,000 lbs of green crabs and we're only getting about 6,000 lbs of sellable material. So, there is some waste there that we're trying to find a use for. The shells. But you know, more volume is needed. So, the more shells we have, the more attractive that is to somebody trying to produce something out of them. We just need to have more people take a chance on a unique invasive species versus some of the standards.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, green crab isn't the only invasive marine species being groomed for pet food that has a price problem, according to Gabe.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: So like, carp will be more expensive than say, like factory farmed salmon. All of this is because it's all wild caught. And then the other comment I would say on carp is that they have a really funny skeletal system. I shouldn't say funny, I don't think that's the biological term, but they have a system that's like intra-skeletal. You can't get any filets. So like, there's no clean cut of carp you could feed at restaurants. You have to feed it as a mince, and once you have minced carp, you're essentially looking at a pet food ingredient.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah. And coming back to Mike with lionfish, the infrastructure problems persist there particularly because the only way lionfish can be caught as to not damage the natural ecosystems that they're invading—so like, things like reefs and whatnot—you have to spear them one at a time.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Which is not a fast process.

Jordan Tyler: Not at all. And then there’s another barrier and that is certifications. So, there are a handful of organizations that vet fishing operations for sustainability and transparency, like the Marine Stewardship Council or MSC and the American Seafood Council or ASC, and companies that get these certifications can slap the MSC or ASC badge on their package to signal to shoppers that their fishing operations are better than Brand X that doesn’t have this badge. But because invasive species aren’t being caught and sold at scale yet, these brands we’re talking to today and many others don’t have the volume to qualify for even applying for the certification.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So that cute little logo that says, “Hey, we fish sustainably and we fish smart,” these invasive species can't tout that logo because they're too small or they don't have enough volume and they can't get a large enough volume because people are looking for that logo. And so, it's this weird, vicious, invasive cycle.

Jordan Tyler: It is, it's a total Catch 22. And it's also kind of a load of carp because you can't have one without the other, you can't have the other without the one—it's kind of like the joke that all young professionals have, “Oh, we can't hire you because you don't have any experience.” And well, “How am I supposed to get experience if nobody will hire me?”

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Preach.

Jordan Tyler: And we go around and around.

ie Clark: Story of my life in:

Mike Mitchell: For example, with the devilfish, we are the only people processing this fish at scale. And so, I don't remember the number, but they were like, “Oh yeah, come back when it's like 20 million lbs a year.” And I'm like, “Well, that'll be never, dude.”

But then with a lot of the big retailers, they're like, okay, well I only buy based on this rating, and if you don't have a rating, I cannot buy your product. So, how am I supposed to get to 20 million, whatever it is—some absurd, absurdly high in volume—if I can't reach the big companies because I don't have the certification?

And the certifying bodies, they're aware of this, you know, and they try to help out where they can. There's been talk about a specific invasives label. I generally try to bother them once a year. I don't think they've responded the last couple times. So, it's a struggle—it’s a challenge for us from a marketing perspective of how do we build that consumer confidence by selling a really sustainable product, but we don't have that label.

Mark McDevitt: What we're seeing now is more of especially large pet food manufacturers requiring an MSC or an ASC certification. So, that is going to be a hurdle for invasive species. You're not going to get that type of certification. Um, you're not going to see the MSC and ASC fisheries producing Chesapeake Bay Catfish or the Green Crab or the silver Carp. So, they are off limits for some brands.

So, you know, we are seeing some success with smaller, more nimble either food or treat companies that can introduce a unique protein like that on a sort of a small batch type of process, and they're not committed to, you know, tens of millions of lbs a year. So they can see—they can see what the market feels about it and how sustainable it actually is from a retailer standpoint. And, you know, we want to support companies like that and to get that message out there that, you know, if you're walking in a pet store and there's this new brand that you've never seen and they're offering, you know, a snakehead freeze-dried treat, you know, it's a pretty scary, intimidating name, but it's, you know, a legitimate protein source.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I guess a third thing we have to deal with is that fear factor, right? Invasive species, it feels dangerous, and the word “invasive” just feels scary and it's unknown. We don't really know much about them as a general population, unless you're living, breathing, the destruction of it.

Jordan Tyler: Totally. Yeah. So, infrastructure scale certifications, these are three pretty significant barriers that are keeping invasive species from rising to the surface, if you will. But another barrier is consumer acceptance. So, one way that Asian carp advocates have tried to kind of work around the barrier to consumer acceptance or people just being like, “Ah, Asian carp sounds weird, I'm not going to eat it,” is by rebranding the fish to something less carp-y.

Brian Colgan: Slowly, as we were looking at the different markets and how do we create more opportunity and remove more fish, we realized pretty quickly that folks hear “carp” and they immediately get turned off. Like, I don't want to eat that. I don't want to feed that to my pet—I want to feed my pet what I would eat and I wouldn’t eat carp. So, what's the deal? It's a bottom feeder. It's a trash fish, all of those things, which isn't true. It's actually a very clean filter-feeding fish, no mercury, right? Because it's not eating other fish. It's high in Omega-3s. It's a great quality protein similar to other white fish.

And so, as we learn more about the fish and so how do we get people interested in learning more without immediately being tuned out and turned off? And so, in a similar right, we started working with the state of Illinois and working with other states to understand, you know, is there an opportunity here to talk about the fish in a different way? Not to mislead, but in order to open the door and inform consumers about this fish. And so that's where the Copi brand came out.

p to Copi rebrand—in August:

Brian Colgan: If you've ever heard of Patagonian toothfish, I don't think anyone has. Right? But that is Chilean sea bass because of a rebranding similar to Copi and similar to Asian carp. And so, if you like Patagonian toothfish and like eating it right, you're tasting something that's name probably isn't appealing to you.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: And it sounds like the term invasive species could use a rebrand as well, according to Mike with Pezzy Pet.

Mike Mitchell: I think the invasive label can be problematic, and it's a challenge in of itself because there's a lot of confusion around what invasive means. People say, “Oh, invasive, does that mean poisonous? Or does that mean it'll kill my dog?” Invasive does not mean that it's harmful. It just means that it's a fish or whatever species now being captured where it's not supposed to be. It's a non-native species. So, that's a challenge of getting the word out.

I think Maui Nui Venison, they sell products for human consumption and pets, but I think they do a good job and they avoid the invasives label all altogether. It's more like ecological balance and restoring the ecosystem. And so, we lean into that a little bit, just trying to say like, “Hey, you know, this is a fish that we want to actually overfish,” because a lot of people understand overfishing, you know, those issues. And they say, “This is one that we want to overfish, and oh, why?” Oh, well, let me tell you!

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: That's I think maybe one of the bigger hurdles that you run into with novel proteins. Folks have to know something about it. If you live in the Midwest, it doesn't matter what your affiliation is relative to politics or to class or what, anything you're going to be familiar generally with the invasive fish. Really surprisingly—or not, maybe not so surprisingly—the Pacific Northwest, the West Coast, like, they're I think more open and well read on like these types of proteins than you might imagine. So, like actually really low hurdles there. The bigger question is like how do we find like the pockets, like what do we do like about New Mexico? I don't have a perfect answer for you.

Jordan Tyler: So, let's pull out our crystal ball, as I like to say, and ask ourselves what the future holds for invasive species in pet nutrition. I wish that you all could see Stephanie right now who is doing some like sorcery with a fake crystal ball in the—it's amazing.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Just shining it up!

Jordan Tyler: So, one of Brian's key takeaways about the future of this space is we're going to keep having to work through infrastructure challenges and scale issues that we're facing today in order for this to have the potential to take off.

Brian Colgan: Theres a lot here if you want to give back to communities and you want to end up seeing local, small businesses grow and you want to support rural communities. I think helping remove this fish is a key piece of that, right? Removing millions of lbs a year is going to put, you know, money in the pockets directly of fishermen, it's going to create, you know, new opportunities at marinas, it's going to bring back fishing tournaments. It's going to create that economic opportunity that you want to see in our communities. We want them to grow. Let's build the infrastructure, let's build the cold chain, let's support the fishermen, and let's do this in a way that can create growth across each of these different areas.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: For Deb, the onus is on education. [Echoing: Education, education, education, education.]

Deb Suchman: Just because it's sustainable doesn't mean people are going to spend more money on it, and it's just more about how do you fit that into their lifestyle, and part of that is talking about, you know, is it sustainable, but also has health benefits.

And people may want to lead a sustainable lifestyle, but they might not want to pay extra for it. So, like, it's a lot to fit in. So, I think it's not just enough to be trying to be a good, sustainable company, you have to really be mindful of cost and you have to be like talking about like how that affects the health benefits for their dog.

Jordan Tyler: Yeah. It’s such a good point—sucks to say it, but we just don’t buy pet food with sustainability as the No. 1 priority, at least not right now. It’s always got to come back to how it improves the lives of pets and pet owners. We’ve talked about that in the upcycled ingredients episode, the insect protein episode—this concept is pretty pervasive across the pet industry, across sustainability, across novel ingredients. We’ve got to find different and better ways to market novel formulations like this, other than just, “Trust us, it’s sustainable!” Right?

But education and good marketing aren’t the only things critical for advancing invasive species in pet nutrition. For Mike’s part, he’s laser focused on collaboration.

Mike Mitchell: I think there's a lot of opportunity with invasives. We need to do a lot of work on like the positioning, the marketing of invasives and then, it's just, the processing logistics will always be a struggle. It's great that a lot of us can, like, share resources. I talked to Gabe from Arch fairly regularly because I'm a big fan or a big proponent of a rising tide lifts all ships.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Oh, and speaking of Gabe, Archway has some exciting innovations coming for its invasive species portfolio.

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: Two exciting things: one is cat.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Meow…

Gabriel Huertas del Pino: So, almost all of our products, as of yet have been for dogs. We have forgotten everyone's favorite felines. So, now we're formulating five new SKUs for cats, all using the carp. They love the fishiness of it. It was our mistake not to focus on it sooner. So, that's, like, our big project for the year.

And then from there, the other one is getting more and more invasive fish. Like wild boar is a problem in the South, so we've been looking at getting like wild boar jerkies and increasing beyond the carp. Green crab is an issue in the Mid-Atlantic, and there's the shad. So, it's a fish that was introduced Pacific Northwest. And slowly but surely we hope to have a protein or two for everyone. And they all are hypoallergenic or at least novel.

Jordan Tyler: As we work to really grow the acceptance of invasive species for pets, how can we also bring them more into the human food industry? So, our team did a little bit of research along these lines, and I think it's really interesting to point out, so taking the blue catfish, for example, in a 4-oz serving a blue catfish, you get 19 grams of protein, only 90 calories, and only 1.5 grams of fat. And then add in those healthy Omega-3 fatty acids that you get too… That's a pretty healthy meal if you ask me. I'm not even a nutritionist.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: I mean, if the taste is there, let's do it.

Jordan Tyler: That's going to be the big one. Yeah. And I think it's really cool what Brian's doing with Colgan Carp. He's working across industries, across categories to figure out how they can use the whole fish and not let any of it go to waste, and really turn it into things that are exciting, tasty and nutritious, and sustainable.

Brian Colgan: Now, a couple different types of products that we've explored and we're working on, you know, we can do dehydrated skins with the fish, we can boil the heads, right? And you have a broth that can be then used as a base for different pet treats, as a topper, that can be used a number of different things there with the fish. We mince the fish, we can freeze it, we can freeze-dry it, we can give you 100% wild-caught fish however you want it, really.

Now, we are exploring a couple different exciting new things, we have—we're working with a chef in Chicago on some new products that hopefully will come to a store near you, but, you know, some chili, some nachos, some egg rolls, different things that I think you'll eat it and you won't even realize like, “Oh, this is fish?”

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, invasive species are more than just an economical nuisance. They're are missed opportunity. Today we learned that these non-native troublemakers, like carp, lionfish, green crab, and the devilfish aren't just damaging ecosystems and local economies, they're also a rich source of Omega-3 fatty acids, lean protein, and sustainability potential.

Jordan Tyler: Companies like Archway Pet, Pezzy Pets, Polka Dog, Channel Fish, and Colgan Carp are proving that pet food can be both environmentally responsible and nutritionally powerful when we think beyond the usual proteins. But to scale this movement, we need more than good intentions. We need infrastructure, certification reform, nutritional research, and above all, consumer education.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: So, what can you do? Supporting brands using sustainable ingredients, including invasives. Ask questions—flip over that bag—and learn about invasive species in your area. Because how we feed our pets can also shape the future of our planet. Aww.

Jordan Tyler: And if this episode got your tail waggin’, don't forget to check out the rest of our sustainability series where we explore topics like insect protein, upcycled ingredients, and more ways to do better by our pets and the earth.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Barking Mad. If you want to learn more about BSM partners, please visit us at www.bsmpartners.net. Don't forget to subscribe on your favorite leading podcast platform or share it with a friend to stay current on the latest pet industry trends and conversations.

Jordan Tyler: A huge thanks to Gabe Huertas del Pino, Mike Mitchell, Deb Suchman, Mark McDevitt, and Brian Colgan for sharing their time and insights with us today. We'd also like to thank our dedicated team, Ada-Miette Thomas, Neeley Bowden, Kait Wright, Cady Wolf, and Dr. Katy Miller. A special shout-out to Lee Ann Hagerty and Michael Johnson in support of this episode, and to David Perez for our original music in the intro and outro. See you next time!

Dr. Stephanie Clark: Could you imagine that if you're, like, an avid like water skier and you're like, “Ah, I got carped.”

Jordan Tyler: I wonder if it's become a verb.

Dr. Stephanie Clark: First off, I mean, not Great Lakes, but if anyone is skiing in the Midwestern river bend, Mississippi… you deserve to be slapped.

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