We get to know more about Juliet's life story: how and why she became a lawyer, her work on Death Row in Jamaica and what she strived to achieve. She also talks about the people who have helped her over the years, her visions for Oury Clark and how she would like to be remembered.

Juliet's recommendations: Juliet's Spotify Playlist

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So we're now onto our interview questions.

How did you end up doing what you are doing?

Oh, you know, is that, is that, what was the, the career progression into law?

You wanted to be prime minister.

You just, you know, so our father said that he wouldn't help and support me at university unless I did something that would help me get somewhere.

He did the fuck he saying to me, that little devious bus.

So, uh, he said, I think you should do law.

Everyone will take you seriously.

And so, thankfully for me, what no one did at the time, I totally think, I totally think my chat was very good.

And, um, so I studied law and thankfully I loved law.

You studied at Buckingham?

I studied at Buckingham, which is the only private university does it in two years.

Dad was like, oh, smash that out.

Well, he also worked out that it was cheaper to, to support me for two years and then I could start my career than three years.

Dad believes that the university is bullshit and to be honest, he's right.

It is mostly educational bullshit, universities most, most of it.

So, you know, I get his point.

Uh, okay.

And so you ended up doing law and you liked it.

I liked it.

Um, I got a training contract, a pretty big firm, and then dad said, can you come and help?

He always, he always did it slowly, didn't he?

And I said, okay, I can't help.

Our well come and help at ocs.

Our oldest s so our oldest brother, James, 10 years older, fabulous crazy bus, had started with this other lady and he, they, he said, look, James could do with a bit of help.

Could you go and help him?

I said, okay, I'll, I'll help him, and then I'm gonna go and do my training at this big firm.

And, uh, 30 something years.

Wow.

Later.

I am still here.

But you know what?

Dad stopped you becoming an institutional lawyer.

Wanker.

Oh, he stopped me becoming a complete twa.

You would've, would've bit.

And you I wouldn't have survived.

I mean, one of my favorite projects.

So I go and train some of the big city law firms on the human rights work I do.

And because lots of the, the big firms need access.

To pro bono work and as part of their csr.

And if you are pitching for big organizations, you have to say what good you do for the community and stuff.

And very few, um, people in need would go to big firms.

They typically come to smaller firms like ours.

So I have no end of people needing representation and help and charities and all of that.

And, um, I go into the Big Phantom, one of my.

Favorite things to do.

I mean, I am so now, I've been self-employed for so long and I've become more and more outrageous and now I'm even more outrageous.

I think God help me in my final days.

But anyway, is I like to go into these law firms and I like to wait until the lift is really packed in those massive buildings in, in the city, and then I jump in the live.

And then I'm like, hi everybody, how are you?

And watch as everyone looks.

Absolutely.

And utterly mortified of, oh my God, there's a crazy woman in the list.

Yeah.

Wow.

And there is always one person who will start speaking to me and then I congratulate them.

And most of the people will have.

Completely been really rude and standoffish and looked at me down their noses and whatever, and walked off and then find that I'm their guest speaker presenting to, ah, nice, nice move.

I have, be like, mayor Cooper.

I, I'm so ri Sorry, I wasn't aware.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That, that says a lot about a, a lot of different things there.

I mean, Uh, I think, uh, you know, our father's intervention in our life, I find quite a fascinating one because, uh, when you are younger it's very frustrating because it feels like he's what he wants you to do, what he wants to do, rather than you get to do what you wanna do.

But it it, it's coming from a place of wisdom and love.

And the strange thing is, is that, You know, people pay him a lot of money for his wisdom and his, his advice and stuff.

But, you know, he, he just, he just saw a vision of us working in a family business together is always gonna be better than what you think when you're 21.

I'm gonna go be in this big firm and I'm gonna be terribly important.

Yeah.

And I, I'm so grateful because I think it has enabled us to bend it to our wheel.

There's no way I could have done.

Most of what I've done in my career, nor the fact I wouldn't have been able to change the career that I had because I began doing crime and human rights and now have

become more of a general practitioner and, and doing immigration work and, and helping businesses, which I would never have been able to do in any other organization.

Oh, I see.

They would've.

Because in law you get pigeonholed that now you're a criminal lawyer and that's what you do, and blah, blah blah.

Yeah.

And you can't cross from social law to commercial law.

You can go the other way, but you can't go the way that I went.

Really?

They don't like it.

No, because they're snotty about it.

Snooty about it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You were of no benefit to them.

Yeah.

I think a dad, dad did a very interesting technique.

Constantly did it to university, did it Here, it's like, you do what I want.

But I'll let you do what you want and I'll help you with it and I'll help finance it.

Or he did that with me and my music and you with, with Jamaica, I guess.

Or allowed it to go on.

But he, I wanted to change the world and so I started doing the most extreme work, so death penalty work, so the final appeals before execution and stuff.

But dad was wise, he said to me, you know, really?

Which is probably probably why, then I pivoted because he said, look, I really think you need to earn a living and then help the people you want to help at the moment, you know, you're not earning a living because, but let's get, let's go.

How, how, how did you get involved in Jamaica and, you know, and what exactly were you doing?

So first of all, I was doing all the gangs and all the criminal defense work here.

And then our oldest brother James had done a stint on death row in America.

Yeah, in Kansas.

Yeah.

So in Missouri.

And um, I was at university at the time and he asked me to do loads of research while I was at uni.

So I was 20 at the time and I had access to way more portals and stuff.

When you're at university, you are given loads more.

Free case law and all of this stuff.

And so I started helping him and I did, um, my first case with him and it was a guy called Alan Banister, and I was totally in favor of the death penalty, what everybody should done.

It was outrageous and all the rest of it.

Yeah.

And James gave me this book.

Uh, which was written by Alan Bannister, and I read this book and it was his story, and I couldn't believe this story.

And, and so I helped James with his case and, and I was very young and naive at the time, and I truly believed that he would be set free.

And unfortunately, he was executed.

And, and that blew my mind, and blew my mind that.

In life, we could do that.

Like we are a civilized country and culture.

I mean, this was in the States because it was clear to you he was innocent.

Yeah.

He shouldn't, he shouldn't be executed.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I don't believe in a wrong and a wrong and, you know, it just doesn't change.

It doesn't make sense.

It doesn't, you only need to make, I mean, as they ended it here because they got it wrong, you know, you only need to be wrong once, and it's, it's a stupid plan.

It's just, yeah.

It's, you know, it doesn't deter anybody.

And so I, I had helped him when Alan got executed.

I vied, I would never, ever do this work again.

And James agreed to take on unbeknown to me while I was helping him.

And we were working together a lot of cases.

And James, sounds like James.

James then went somewhere.

And on one weekend, the entire of Antigua's death row population, which was about 18 men at the time, Got read their execution warrants on a Friday, and I came into the office on a Monday morning, and it was in the times we didn't have mobile phones.

We had an old fashioned fax machine, and there were these partial execution warrants on the fax machine and our.

Answer machine in the office was overloaded with families desperately leaving messages.

Their child was gonna be executed on the Monday, but this is Monday morning, so it's it's it's nighttime in Antica.

Yes.

And so I was like, my God, they're gonna kill all of these people and they haven't finished their appeals.

And so the Caribbean system, it was part of the British Empire.

Their system is based on our system.

And their final appeal is to the Privy Council here in London, which used to be on Downing Street, is is now on Parliament Square and it's the Supreme Court.

So our highest judges sit and determine at the Privy Council.

At the Privy Council and, and the boys before they're executed.

Well, girls there are quite a few ladies do, are entitled to do these appeals and so I, for over 30 years have done their appeals.

And Antigua taught me everything and one of the people I have to thank in my career.

For that it is the lawyer that has always been on the other side, a guy called John Almeda, who has represented all of the governments and, and been against me on every single case.

And he's another British lawyer here who has to represent the governments of Antigua or Jamaica or Trinidad.

Yes.

You know?

Right.

So when we bring appeals, he represents the, he's like the attorney General of Yeah.

Of, of, of, of, of the Privy Council and, and, I, I, at the time was training and I had to ask the Privy Council to do a special sitting on that Monday Yes.

To say, whoa, we've got all these people.

And so I phoned up the court and I had to say, I understand that all of the population of death row in Antigua have been read execution once, and I don't believe any of them have appealed yet.

So, um, the, the court only sits at certain times.

I need.

A special sitting.

So we had to convince them to do a special sitting.

You have to have various paperwork to be lodged, which is crazy paperwork practically.

Cuz at the time they, they needed original signatures of all of the death row and men wanting to appeal and stuff.

And I remember running down to the court and being like, all I've got are these execution warrants that have come down my facts.

Machine and you can listen to my voicemail Yeah.

Of all of the families telling me that this is happening and then saying, well, can you now please get all of this paperwork?

Yeah.

And all of this bullshit documentation and all of this stuff.

And, and John, John sat with me in the chamber, which was outside the court and helped me put together whatever we had, and he accepted that the government had read.

The execution warrants.

And they had built the hanging machine over the course of the weekend, and all the boys would be measured for their coffins.

Wow.

And their coffins were being built outside their cells.

Someone had just said, fuck it.

Killmore.

Yes.

And that can happen at a drop of a hat, which is, people may say it, oh, bloody colonialism.

The oversight.

But the, the, the kind of, the attitude was, is the death penalty we've got rid of in this country.

But other countries kept it.

And at the time he said, well, we need, we, you know, Then it is not the most sophisticated setup here.

We, we might need a second, you know, pullback device.

And actually in this instant, I'm hoping you're gonna tell me they didn't all get executed that day.

They didn't all get executed and quite a few of them went free.

In this instant it clearly shows that it, it makes some sense.

Yeah.

And it, it was amazing.

And from quite a few went free right from, yeah, quite a few Went free.

And from there I basically ended up taking on and, and agreeing.

There's a few other people that do it too, but to, to agree to represent all those facing sentences of death or life.

So I In Antigua or in Antigua, Bahamas, Jamaica and Trinidad.

And you, you chose, say that again?

All those people facing the death penalty.

Death penalty, or life.

But it's getting worse now because previously it was kind of gang members against gang members, and being a white tourist was safe.

There was some moral codes.

Yeah.

But the same was here too, like the gangs here and more moral code in code in the uk.

Like Yeah, so I, I used to, to defend those that took over from the Cray family.

There were various families that took over following the Cray family and.

There, there was always a moral code amongst them.

They would never harm women and children and you know, they would do sophisticated armed robberies generally of institutions and stuff, and lots of society is beginning to break down and there is now no.

Holes barred in most cases.

Wow.

There's a breakdown of tru and so there's, there's obviously multiple communities cuz there's the institution, there's the police, there's the court, there's the, you know, uh, people who are live in richer areas.

And actually the role you played, cuz I saw you play it, is that you were a trusted source and communicated between all of the, then you, you, you had people who trusted you in the police, people who trusted you in the court.

The lawyers who trust you and very importantly the community who trusted you to share information, to sort out problems.

Yeah, so.

I, I began by defending people and doing their appeals.

Then the volume and the amount and the length and all of that.

And over time, plus I was so young, I believed everybody was innocent to, yeah.

Yeah.

You have so much energy when you are young and time and things, but I then you're very trusted.

I, I then moved to, I only really wanna help the totally innocent and I would reinvestigate back their cases because I had spent so much time in the communities and felt very lucky that they all looked after me and I have gone into the worst.

Places and people say, there's no way you've been there.

You would've been killed.

And you know, you came with me to some of them, and I found it fascinating how horrendous some of the gangs started being to you.

And I had to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Because it had always only been me going into these areas.

And they were like, who is this Basson?

And they, no one was mean to me.

Everyone was nice to me, but oh, they, they acted differently towards me.

No, but begin with, for me to get you clearance before they start pulling guns and being like, what?

Who are you?

What are we?

I remember arriving and we drove in.

I had my B headphones on the back thing, and we got out the car and I locked.

I saw the lads and I was like, lock the car.

And they were like, what the fuck, man?

You lock in the car.

Why you lock?

And you were like, unlock the car.

And I said, yeah, but my, my headphones are on the uh, they're on the back seat, babe.

Unlock the fucking car.

I was like, okay.

Yeah, you disrespected them.

It's safe there.

Yes, it is safe there.

Yeah.

They'll fucking murder everyone.

I didn't go the call.

Yeah.

I both headphones did go.

No, they didn't go.

Uh, do you think Jamaica can fit?

You know, is it got to, I mean, if things are getting worse, there must always be hope and I hope, you know, change how, what, what, what?

They need a middle class and people need, they need some good leaders.

There are so many things, and unfortunately I don't have the answers.

Like, I'm sad.

Well, what I saw as an outsider is that.

You know, intrinsically, I do believe humans, you know, were peaceful and you know, want to be loving and, but you've got this territoriality.

But there were nice people in the police, there were nice people in the gangs, there was nice people, you know, generally speaking, everyone was cool.

And then, you know, obviously it was terrible shit was happening, but they all thought each other were bastards.

Yeah.

You know, they, Hey, the police, you know, and they have good reason to do so.

One would argue, but the police, interestingly, even the nice ones, they would be like, Fuck those fucking gangs.

They'd have personal stories, you know, they'd kill my brother, they did this, da da da, da.

You know?

So it's a bit like they just have to known each other all like decent people underneath it.

You know?

I think there needs to be a kind of peace and reconciliation and like Nelson Mandela did sort of coming together and let's talk about it.

Yeah, I think they all need to start working together and it'd be less, less of a them all.

Right.

So you are completely right that within them, you know, there are a few bad apples in, in all sides, but overall they're incredible people.

And if they could just put aside all of the bullshit Yeah.

And, and talk and communicate.

And, and, and it will take years to build back.

I mean, I would love there to be a kind of amnesty and put all of the boys in on the right murders, cuz most of them are all in on the wrong murders.

And that causes me no end of problems because that just can continues to and fight.

And this is, this is the fact that, um, in Jamaica you only need one witness and the witness can be the policeman.

So what, what, what sort of happens if someone gets murdered and.

It.

They know that, that, that, that, that the community that has the murder had pissed off this other community that clearly went and killed someone.

Is it They know the community that did it, and then they go to the other community.

And then there are people who are shot as the people who do the killing, and they just arrest one is my understanding because they, they have any time for anything else.

I mean, you have to have a system, so, I think the reason I do what I do is I can't deal with innocent people or a broken system.

So the most painful thing is seeing an innocent person in a prison facing life or death.

And that could be any one of us.

Even if they, I'm sorry, I'm gonna be controversial, but even if they are a shotter and they, they, they commit that one of their jobs is to enforce for the community and so they.

Kill people or, you know, that's what they do.

Look, I think people have, there must be punishment.

You know, not every man that I represent is innocent at all.

I mean, my, my rules of taking on any case, I have three rules.

You know, they have to speak the truth.

If they bullshit me, I won't help them.

So they typically, by the time I've picked up the matter, they are convicted and they're either gonna be hung or they're gonna spend the rest of their life in Britain.

So they've got some decisions to make about, you know, well they have to tell me the truth because I don't want to go into the community reinvestigate and find it.

Does, you know it, its a disaster.

Yeah.

That was the inter, you do a co, you do a Colombo kind of thing, you know that you come in quite, you know, and you know the right people to ask, and you go and find out, and then they'll be like, Yeah, I'll tell you on that thing, they didn't do it.

This person did it and yeah, it's very easy to find out.

I was talking, in fact, truth, talking to my son.

He was asking, but the police can't find it out.

That's my, it's almost like no to the police.

There's quite a few corrupt officers.

My worst experiences in my career and, and when I felt most in danger, I.

One was an instant here in the UK with, with another law firm that had sent me to their client and I was pinned up against a wall in a prison.

And cuz I didn't know who this prisoner was or any who to do with him and that, that was my own naivety to not have.

Found out and the officers had kind of warned me like, why the hell are you seeing this person doing this?

Do your meeting preparation.

Yeah.

So I have done peace walks when the gangs have been firing at each other and I've gone through all of the different communities, a peace walk where you try and

walk peacefully to say Y So, so when the war is really bad, like I'd love to go down now and just go, God, can we just have an afternoon of maybe a cup of tea?

Cup tea?

Yeah.

And um, I did that a few times and I would start walking from one.

Like quite, why can't they be one tribe?

Why?

Why?

So they would each say, you know, why can't they come together and say, look, we're all one tribe.

And then stop being so tr you know, they probably, I'm probably upsetting everyone, but saying sometimes.

So, sometimes.

So I began to build some links, but what's hard is, Cuz so many are being killed all the time.

The ability for relationships to be built is really difficult because No more guns.

Yeah.

I mean, I'd love the guns to be taken.

Oh, just.

I wish.

I wish, I wish they'd just fight each other.

It'd be so much more interesting.

You know, they'd have boxing fights between Oh right.

You know, let's have another fight.

You know?

Yeah.

If it was physical fighting or you know, you actually did business trans, like it would just be very different.

Killing by gun is so easy.

Was this the most difficult thing you've done in your career?

Is this like, you know what?

Defending them?

Well, working in Jamaica like that, I think probably, yeah.

The hard the, I think the hardest is, When clients are in real trouble and trying to work through a system, usually, usually crim, criminal trouble.

I guess that's, that's the, yeah, not all, like some cans, you know, having bitter divorces or, you know, trying to find solutions to people.

I think it can be some of the hardest, well, you take, you, you take on their problems.

I mean, you, you're of that nature anyway.

Well, I should be there to solve their problems.

And sometimes people's, oh, can't, people's problems.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You can't and that bad.

I was, I was always amazed you could sometimes in early in my career.

And that's what inspires you as a professional to say, oh, I can fucking help people.

You know?

They were really grateful.

Oh, actually I've got this skillset, but I grew the, now, later in my career, I've sort of got used to the fact that a lot of the time there's nothing I can do.

Yeah.

You know?

Um, I could be supportive.

Yes.

Sometimes that's the only thing I could be, is I could be like, yeah.

You know, almost a psychologist or a friend and help from myself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, let's talk about it or whatever.

I mean, most of what I do now isn't necessarily law because people will generally phone me up with all kinds of pickles of problems, and I'm generally known, you know, I'll phone her, she'll, she might use somebody that can help or whatever.

So you chat through all of that and you, and then.

Kind of often, you know, the law isn't the answer for lots of it.

I mean, you've mentioned a few people already, but is there anyone else who, who's helped you like a lot over the years?

You know, so I would say there are a few people.

So John Ami do I mentioned because he definitely helped me.

And taught me, you know, just cuz you're on the other side doesn't mean you have to be on the other side.

And collaborative.

Yes.

Legal.

Which, which, if we want to get into any of the problems that we have, you know, that lawyers need to be collaborative and I think they are a lot of the times fair.

And he, and he's a really honorable, fair, wise, all of that.

Uh, I definitely have to say our father.

Oh, papa.

Uh, because I would.

Always phone him for advice and always phone him to talk stuff through.

And he definitely has been there and got the T-shirt three times over.

Yes.

And so he's always taught us, you know, go back, look at things, review.

Yeah, yeah.

Do timelines, facts, methodical, and don't get in a panic.

So I think.

You know, he has taught me to stand in a storm and not run, you know, and he, he always has that concept.

He twisting things too.

When you get, you get into the law, the detail of the thing, understand the problem fully.

And then he has this bit of saying, well, that says that could also mean that, couldn't it?

And you're like, fuck, I did.

I miss that?

No, that changes everything.

And you're like, so he, he's very good in a crisis.

Yes.

And he definitely, I think I have lots of his genes and I have to thank him.

Definitely our mum for keeping me sane, right, mum?

Yeah.

And, and, and I like to call her HQ cuz she's hq, she's headquarters.

She's always, she's just slightly in the second world war.

She's always a week behind though, isn't it?

She's only just got the cable.

Oh, I hear that.

Thomas is a right chat.

Oh no.

We like Thomas.

Oh oh.

Decided no Christmas card.

Poor man.

So true.

So, um, definitely her for keeping me sane, so both of them.

And then definitely my husband for keeping me on the straight that, oh, Christian, and then definitely you ins sis and yeah, just my fellow partners and people and staff, like everybody, you know, when you work as a team and, and have an amazing team, you just.

It like all of them.

I have to thank for and I guess James, for getting you into, into, into the profession in the first place.

Yeah.

I mean, do you know, are you yelling, do you know also like the police officers, the court stuff, like company's house?

I have to give a shout like.

Doing what I do because Companies else.

Yes, because Cannes always getting a massive pickle and we had a massive fraud happen.

And you know, within any organization there is always a secret person.

Well this is your same gift that you, you've got this incredible charm and can get people to open up and help you with stuff, you know?

Or there's always someone that won help.

Yeah.

He's got the special button.

You know.

Yeah, there's, there's always someone somewhere that will help you.

So you know, you must always pick up the phone to places and be like, look, I've got this problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The honesty shines too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

People there is, there will always be someone that will help and like, I can't thank enough all the people that I've asked, which is, well that's always really funny when you get the update from sis about the company sales fraud.

How's company house four?

Oh, right.

Yeah.

So what's happened, Betty?

Oh by the way, her dad dies recently and she doesn't want her sister to know.

Anyway.

It's fine, but you know, we're gonna talk about it later.

But anyway, Betty's gonna sort it out for us.

But Betty was, it was Betty, wasn't it?

But Betty, there was Betty.

The lady will remain there, but she won't take a present from me or anything at night.

She went above and beyond and completely helped.

To someone.

It's just to human being.

Well, people, PE people, people do wanna, people do wanna, you know, help and feel part of something.

Okay.

Very good.

Do you regret any choices?

I don't think so.

I think my only thing is I was really rubbish at school and dyslexia.

I, I had terrible dyslexia.

I know you're only two years older than me and they didn't work it out for you?

They didn't work out, worked it out for me and.

And I completely doubted myself.

And basically how I coped in school is I, I used to be given, you know, you would be given, you smoke cigarettes a lot.

I, I furiously smoke cigarettes, chain smoke cigarettes.

But they would give me work to do and I'd look at it and I'd be like, oh my God, I have absolutely no idea what the height is and how the hell to go and what to do.

And I just start chatting to the teacher and be like, so I would do anything to avoid having to do that.

I did not know that or do any of that stuff.

And I.

I and, and I, you found it boring, I guess as well.

Sounded you sounded quite hated, just didn't have to approach it and, and I really struggled and fortunate for me, I mean, I also had appalling career advice.

I went to an all girls boarding school and my career advice was, there's absolutely no hope for you, Juliet.

You know, you are academic.

I was bottom of everything and I scored bottom of everything.

I didn't know that you really struggled.

And I was always bottom of the class.

Barely ever passed an exam.

Always sh even in every subject you everything really.

And my career advice was, there's absolutely no hope.

You need to get married and have children.

Were you the one that mom had to pick up the phone to Queen Anne to be kinda like and persuade them to take Listen, I went there cause I failed the entrance exam.

I didn't know.

Yeah.

So I failed the entrance time into secondary school and so yeah, mom phoned up and said you really need to.

Uh, and it was only when I was at university and I basically went to, and I was permanently in the library trying to freaking love this stuff at Yeah,

I'm surprised you got through law and, well, I'd spent my first six months in the library trying to, to read and understand and I just couldn't do it.

And I didn't do well in my first six months exams and the teachers brought me in and at Buckingham what was amazing is you had practicing lawyers.

Who are your lecturers?

And so they brought me in and they said, look, we are really confused.

You have spent your six months, not like anybody else, but you've been in the library and you have been studying all the time.

Why haven't you?

Done all.

I'm not, I dunno how to learn.

And then I learned that I learned from visuals and I basically started doing massive drawings and writing on these huge pieces of paper that I stuck all around the house.

I just had in my brain, God, do you know the only thing I learned at school, I quite like to pie chart and dyslexic.

You, you, you visual and your information and how you think.

So I then learned, so I think my regret was so much of my early education.

Was terrible and I lo.

And I doubt his, and they kept as, as I experienced, as they still do.

They teach you through words.

They just keep me giving you more stuff to read.

Read this, read this.

Son does.

That son works for most people.

My son just being diagnosed at the moment and I watch him and he writes everything, but he does everything like I did.

And I can see he's deflecting and he's trying to avoid and do, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Also, we love the other thing that's misunderstood is that, is that dyslexics, uh, uh, love verbal.

We're very good at talking normally.

We enjoy.

Talking, you know, that's a great way for us to get information as well.

So, you know, I, I wonder whether those lawyers you met, did you manage to like, form a relationship with 'em and get them to explain shit as well?

Yeah.

And that really helped cuz you had individual tutorials and you, it, it's just accepting that some of us learn different, you know, and not all of us learn the same.

Well, thanks, fuck.

Ultimately anyone who thinks that, you know, people getting extra time and more dyslexia at Hoka Poke, it's, it's changed society being able to recognize for that.

And someone should have been able to teach you that at a younger age to say you're visual draw pictures, make diagrams, and Yeah.

And it wasn't really under.

Did started, I doing better, better, better after that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I flew through and did really well.

Oh, how fascinating.

Like, and so it was only, you know, I didn't do well academically and I struggled all the way until I got to uni and then I did.

Well, I got her do well.

You do one.

I got, well, I got to Desmond.

Uh, anyway.

Well, here's, here's a deep one.

What, what advice would you give to your, to your kids, do you think, on career choices?

You know, I, I really hope that I, I adore my children, like everybody adores their own children.

I really hope that they come into this family business.

Mm-hmm.

I really hope they do get a qualification, whatever the professors.

Yeah.

We have many, I don't mind.

Well, you don't, Caroline doesn't have a qualification.

Does he lose her?

Oh sister, you wait.

I may think she's gonna run it.

She's head of our HR and brilliant at it, and again, failed.

Very badly.

Failed school.

Impossible.

But you know, as a fantastic communicator.

So I just, I think you must try and do things that you enjoy, but I think you've also gotta be practical.

So I hope they'll take a profession.

Mm-hmm.

I like the profession and I hope they, they will work within this business.

That's my greatest wish.

So basically, history of being itself.

Kids won't want to join family business, but we are gonna make them.

Well, hopefully, hopefully.

But, you know, it's, it's been my great honor to work in this business.

But it took me, it's taken me 15 years to get over myself a little longer.

Where would you like to see OC in 20 years?

I.

Hope that we will cover all disciplines, all professionals, including medicine.

Even, uh, maybe I, I would like us to be just the go-to on these people know their stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And they will sort you out and you will get your answers.

Getting answers.

Yeah.

And not get lost in it all.

And the fact that we are not afraid.

Yeah.

So that, I hope that we remain straight talking the best at what we can do with the nicest people.

And do you see, uh, you know, offices or, or, or all around the world or do you think, you know, it's, it's, I don't dunno about that.

I like, I think it's enough, two buildings.

I don't ever want it getting lost in the bullshit.

Yeah.

And lost in the compliance.

Yeah.

So whether you therefore keep to certain niches rather than cover everything.

Where do you reckon it'll be?

Um, I think I agree with everything you said.

I was just thinking it's like sort of, uh, I just had three Fs in my head.

Fearless, frank, and friendly.

Oh.

I like, it's quite good.

It's like, and it's also, fuck, fuck, fuck.

I.

Fearless, Frank and friendly.

You know, I think A, we want to still be going.

B it would be fantastic that, you know, uh, there's, it still has this family vibe, you know what I mean?

And I don't mean family as in like, oh, you know, uh, oh, family here isn't that sweet.

Like as in there's something different in a partnership and there's something different in a business that has a family in it that.

Gives it this sort of, um, I don't know.

There's, there's a, there's a depth to it, isn't it?

I mean, I think one of my great honors with working with my family is that.

Tough.

Life is tough, business is complicated and everything, but you are trying to make difficult decisions and you've got someone you completely trust giving you information.

You know that, that you tell me, Hey, listen, fuck that guy.

I sometimes I disagree with you and that's fine.

And you know, because it's like, ah, you know, may I have a but.

I don't doubt that that's the truth.

And you saw something odd and that's your opinion, but I might be like, but it's, it's, it's that the speed of which you can transfer information.

Well, you're far kind to them.

Me though, I mean, you, you, you give me for way more chances than me.

I just had a really, really bad time at school.

So I have this.

Uh, sympathy for the underdog that I find hard to, but I'm sympathetic to the underdog.

I just, no, but maybe what dad said to me that I, I don't even notice, you know, you don't know yourself.

Said you will always stand up.

You like you have a problem.

Like you can't, you can, you will never not defend the person or you think is being like, attacked or, which it sounds very noble, but it's actually not that helpful sometimes cuz you're wrong.

You know?

Um, but I don't know.

You, you see it different differently.

You, you are f you, you think you are unkind.

I just think hang out.

And work with the people that you like and are straight, you have less patience with, and I have no patience for bullshit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, on Hoovers basically no patience for Hoovers, no patience for, for negativity and blaming others, then ah, I see.

So, so yeah.

If you see any of that, you're like, I'm out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, and I think because I've, like, I've got a lot of scars from lots of different things.

Yeah.

But therefore I'm like zero tolerance.

Like, have you found it hard being a woman and try and be in charge of a firm full of men at times?

Well, to be honest, I've, we've been quite a firm.

I've never, so for me, I, I'm really lucky.

Like I don't, I don't feel that whole.

Macho, like everybody has always been respectful.

The only time I had a really tough time was when I was training and when the training principal went off on maternity and I ended up with all the cases and that's where I saw some of the grimmest in terms of QCs and certain people refused to speak to me because I was a trainee and I wasn't.

Right, right, right.

The partner in charge or responsible or whatever and looked down and I said, I'm very sorry, but.

It is me.

Yeah.

You're gonna have to deal with, yeah.

Yeah.

I cannot deal with arrogance or people being mean to people and, and actually at the moment, like currently I'm struggling in the cancer units because some of the patients are so rude to the staff, are they?

And to the doctors, do you overhear them?

And so, And I'm now going to start policing because, but they're rude cuz they're in pain or they're, well, that's what some of the doctors and stuff have been saying.

But I said, look, there, there's a different but they're being properly nasty.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can't handle it.

You know, there, there, there is no excuse for treating people like shit.

Oh, get the Kleenex ready.

Um, well you've answered, you've answered one of those questions, but you know, I.

How would you, you know, I think it's an interesting question I should even ask myself because I think it, it, it grounds you in, what are you trying to achieve

it, you know, it was a bit like, um, uh, tiny Blaze said to our friend about what do you, how do you wanna be remembered, but how do you want to be remembered?

Uh, pushing the limits.

Anything is possible with a smile.

Nothing is a problem and anything is possible.

Yeah.

Yeah, I think so.

And I think you must hang out with the people that are good for your soul.

Yeah.

And have some fun.

I'll tell you one thing.

Occasionally I meet people in IU and, um, Say, oh Andrew, you've got a sister called Juliet.

And you know, thinking, oh, fuck it, here we go.

It's like, yeah, I know.

Look, she didn't mean it.

Or they always say the same thing.

They're always like, I fucking love your sister.

And when you and me are good friends with someone in work, they always say the same fucking thing.

It's like, no, I like you Andy.

I really like you, but I fucking really like your sister.

So you've got, you, you definitely have something.

And you, maybe it's cuz you've got all their secrets.

So you, you're like, listen, I know about it, so you better fucking keep in line.

Recommendations.

Uh, do you have any recommendations on something to, oh, I know one, one recommendation.

You've got a Spotify playlist we can share.

Oh, yes.

We share the Blink Public, yes.

Killer play.

I have to give my sis credit, although I taught her everything she knows.

To be fair, our elder brother was very into music and had a record player and was very, very, and, and he, and, and he gave us a tape and we called it the orange Tape.

What I do, which you know, certainly when I was very young, was very instrumental in me learning about lots of bands.

So, Think it's probably our, our brother has started off, cuz mom and dad were absolutely fucking useless at music, listening to music as it were.

But Juliette has amazing tastes.

Sorry, I'm gonna say it for a woman.

So Yeah, you could put your playlist out there.

The, the thing that we are are current, so definitely playlist.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the thing I'd really like to encourage is a Sunday night dance off.

Ooh.

So one of my dear mates is a crazy man called Wally.

And he has started doing me a dance on the days that I have chemo.

And I, and we have always had a tradition in my family with my husband and my two children that on Sunday now I'm like, we like to put on some tunes and we have a little shimmy.

And my husband's got brilliant, a big man, and he likes to put on a little tutu.

And dance with my daughter.

Fantastic.

And so we've decided perhaps we are gonna start through my treatment plan.

Yeah, a dance competition.

This is fantastic.

This is fantastic.

There is nothing better than the dance than putting on incredible therapy there.

Little tune, like a little sing along in the chair and having a little chip.

Doesn't matter if you come.

There's a lot of science.

The incredible effect dancing has on people.

Nice.

I mean, you know, goodness Kiara's all wrapped up in bar dance and doing that with James Bar dance is, and they, that's so, so that's our thing.

Now we've gotta do the Sunday.

Yeah, the Sunday jiggle basically.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You could do that by fucking Zoom, you know?

Hey, I love a good dance.

I just, it's just nothing better.

And if anyone out there can't dance, I will tell you the secret of dance in one second.

You, you, you have to.

Mentally imagine that there's no one else there.

You ha That's what you have to do to dance in public.

You have to stand there.

That's all I do.

And I do it by drinking a few parts of Lagar at the same time.

But I have to, I mentally just forget.

And then you're dancing.

You just, you, if you enjoy music, you'll dance.

If you think there's no one else there and you, and you want to anyway, I, it is probably not helping anyone at all, but fucking just, oh, it's, you've got to close your eyes.

You know?

You've got to just do it.

That's brilliant.

With a tutu on.

Fantastic.

What advice would've you given to your younger self?

I dunno that I don't, you sort of answered it earlier actually, which was kind of like, Your visual, do it on the walls.

I thought you would've said, and he would've fucked his career.

Just took off.

She ended up Prime Minister.

No, actually it would've had a huge impact.

Yeah.

And I, I think don't necessarily listen to other people like we are all able to do what we need to do.

Just get on and do it.

Yeah.

And don't get too lost in it.

Yeah.

No bullshit.

It's a definite family trait.

Okay.