Listen to the song

1. YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ethfkbryt0
2. Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/track/0djVp1dfkHrq6dxnFkjgMi?si=ebab0df0719945fa
3. Apple Music - https://music.apple.com/us/song/everyday-i-have-the-blues-with-stevie-wonder/572652905
4. Amazon - https://music.amazon.com/albums/B00A70V8TU?marketplaceId=ATVPDKIKX0DER&musicTerritory=US&ref=dm_sh_7ocbabTtLIkc6aWbBg6IMQ8WB&trackAsin=B00A70V9OO

Other links

1. Howard Levy on the harmonica - https://youtu.be/9gQgjHTNkmk
2. Interview with Lady Gaga and Tony Bennett - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E88BMN96hJQ

Key takeaways

1. Trist and Elaine highlight Stevie Wonder’s soaring harmonica solo in the song, emphasizing his effortless mastery of the instrument and the harmonica’s unique role in blues music
2. Elaine and Trist talk about Tony Bennett’s career, which spanned decades, and how duets and MTV Unplugged helped him expand his reach into broader audiences over the years
3. In the Mailbag segment, Trist and Elaine discuss how record stores serve as vital third spaces for fostering community and connecting music enthusiasts, despite the challenges posed by online marketplaces

About us

Trist Curless is a Los Angeles-based vocalist, educator, and sound engineer. As a performer, Trist has toured worldwide as a co-founder of the pop-jazz vocal group m-pact and a 10 year member of the Grammy-award winning The Manhattan Transfer. In addition to these two vocal powerhouse groups, he’s also performed with Take 6, Bobby McFerrin, New York Voices, Vox Audio, Naturally 7, and The Swingle Singers. His latest venture, The LHR Project, is a new vocal group collective celebrating legendary jazz vocal group Lambert, Hendricks, and Ross.

As an audio engineer, Trist has toured nationally with several vocal groups and bands in a large variety of venues, working for Grammy award winners Pentatonix and Take 6, as well as prominent a cappella vocal groups Straight No Chaser, VoicePlay, and Accent.

Elaine Chao, M.Ed is a San Francisco Bay Area-based vocalist, multi-instrumentalist, vocal percussionist, and songwriter whose career spans a cappella, contemporary worship, and classical music. She has leveraged her training in classical and choral music over the course of her contemporary performance, including in orchestras for musical theatre and in sacred spaces. In addition to music, she also is a martial artist and published author. She currently leads a product management team at a major software company dedicated to creative expression. All statements in this podcast are her own and do not reflect the opinions of her employer.

Elaine: Hey, Trist, what do we have this week?

Trist: This week we have a duet.

Trist: as you're noticing, any of you

Trist: who've listened to many of our

Trist: podcasts.

Trist: I do just enough research to

Trist: know I didn't do quite enough

Trist: research.

Trist: I'd love to find out if there is

Trist: a duet ever recorded by two

Trist: people with more total Grammy

Trist: Awards.

Trist: This duet encompasses 45 Grammys.

Elaine: Oh 45!

Elaine: Now, is this, like, album Grammys or any Grammy?

Trist: Just Grammys,

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: just two people with 45 Grammys.

Elaine: Between them.

Elaine: Oh, that's pretty impressive.

Elaine: So who are

Trist: Well,

Elaine: these two people?

Trist: when you hear the two, it'll make sense.

Trist: You'll go, oh, yeah, Okay, that'll do it.

Trist: It's Tony Bennett and Stevie Wonder.

Elaine: Ohhhh.

Trist: Our first return customer, Stevie Wonder.

Elaine: That's right.

Elaine: Yeah. We did a Stevie song a few weeks ago, right?

Trist: Yeah. As much as I love him, it's a small miracle that it's

Trist: taken this long to get more than one Stevie Wonder appearance.

Elaine: Okay. And Tony Bennett, I mean, he is classic, right?

Elaine: We're talking classic crooner.

Elaine: He is so productive in terms of the number of albums that he's

Elaine: released, the number of duets that he's done.

Elaine: But

Trist: Yeah,

Elaine: I would

Trist: he

Elaine: love

Trist: did

Elaine: to talk

Trist: several.

Elaine: a little bit more.

Trist: Sorry.

Trist: Yeah, he did a few of these Tony and Friends albums.

Trist: and then he, later on in his

Trist: years had full albums with, k.d.

Trist: lang.

Trist: And in his later years, more famously with Lady Gaga, but

Trist: always dabbled in doing these.

Trist: And when you did it for as long as Tony Bennett did, you always

Trist: had to, find ways to mix it up.

Trist: So this comes from an album

Trist: that's called "Playin' With My

Trist: Friends: Bennett Sings the

Trist: Blues."

Trist: So we do have a blues tune for you.

Elaine: Okay, so what's the name of the song?

Trist: One of the most ubiquitous songs

Trist: in the Blues that there is, it's

Trist: "Everyday (I Have the Blues),

Trist: sometimes

Elaine: Okay.

Trist: just called "Every Day," Like the most famous version by Count

Trist: Basie Band with Joe Williams.

Elaine: Okay, so with that, we're going to leave the links in the show

Elaine: notes for you to listen to it.

Elaine: But before we get there, Trist, can you remind everyone,

Elaine: especially our new listeners, how we should be aiming to

Elaine: listen to music as we are participating in this activity?

Trist: Ah yes. The Musicians Loupe

Trist: podcast is a podcast that loves

Trist: you to do the best listening

Trist: possible.

Trist: So we like to perpetuate the

Trist: thought that listening is

Trist: precious and we don't take

Trist: enough time to stop and just

Trist: listen.

Trist: Not while you're watching a

Trist: show, not while you're cleaning,

Trist: not while you're looking at your

Trist: phone.

Trist: I mean, I'm guilty of all of those things for sure, but take

Trist: this time if you can.

Trist: If you have the ability to maybe you're out in a place where you

Trist: can't do this.

Trist: But if you can improve your listening situation, grab the

Trist: good headphones and then grab the better headphones and then

Trist: get to a quiet place, find the good listening room, whatever

Trist: you can do to make your listening situation just a

Trist: little bit better.

Trist: I think you will enjoy even more.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: So with that reminder, we're going to take a brief break and

Elaine: we will be right back.

Elaine: And we're back.

Elaine: That was so much fun.

Elaine: Oh my goodness.

Trist: Yeah. Uh, you could probably tell I mostly chose that- Of

Trist: course, Stevie sounds amazing.

Trist: He sounds just like Stevie Wonder.

Trist: But, man, the harmonica solo is key for me.

Trist: I think people know he plays harmonica, but I just don't

Trist: think he gets enough credit for what an amazing piano player and

Trist: harmonica player he is.

Elaine: Yeah, that was something that really struck me as well.

Elaine: And I think part of it is that having tried to play harmonica

Elaine: every once in a while and you're like, oh, that's actually harder

Elaine: than it looks.

Elaine: And I actually had to go back

Elaine: and look up the harmonica on

Elaine: Wikipedia to find out more about

Elaine: the instrument.

Elaine: And part of the reason I had to

Elaine: do that was I just couldn't

Elaine: figure out, wow, does that

Elaine: really all fit in one instrument

Elaine: and one really small instrument

Elaine: like that?

Elaine: And the answer is yes.

Elaine: but I was also thinking about

Elaine: some of the other things that I

Elaine: heard in the playing of the

Elaine: harmonica.

Elaine: I would love to hear about what you heard in that solo.

Trist: Oh, well, I'm just hearing,

Trist: like, the effortless mastery of

Trist: the instrument.

Trist: If he were improvising any other

Trist: way, it would be kind of the

Trist: same.

Trist: That's what most musicians strive for.

Trist: Like have my thoughts about something.

Trist: Let the instrument just speak for me and not have anything get

Trist: in the way, like, oh, because I'm not as good at the guitar.

Trist: I can't play all of the ideas I

Trist: have or at the piano or whatever

Trist: instrument that's what you're

Trist: looking for is that mastery,

Trist: where you can have this

Trist: connection of the technical

Trist: elements of the instrument don't

Trist: get in the way of what you've

Trist: thought.

Trist: You have

Elaine: Mhm.

Trist: this cool musical idea, but then you're inhibited by your ability

Trist: to play the instrument, which is, me on almost every

Trist: instrument, which is why I'm still just a singer.

Trist: So, that's what I hear.

Trist: If you were just doing a scat solo or playing on the piano, it

Trist: would almost all be the same.

Trist: is the thing that I think, and it's just effortless musical

Trist: ideas and, you know, being a blues tune, it's not as complex.

Trist: It's not like, oh, what is happening harmonically here that

Trist: he needs to fit?

Trist: it's very matter of fact.

Trist: It's like just effortless.

Elaine: Yeah. Fun fact one of the things that I found out from the

Elaine: Wikipedia article about the harmonica is that one of the

Elaine: nicknames is a blues harp.

Trist: Uh-huh.

Elaine: So thinking about harmonica and

Elaine: the role that it has in blues

Elaine: music.

Elaine: So one

Trist: The.

Elaine: of the things that I heard in

Elaine: addition to that was the concept

Elaine: of bending.

Elaine: Like pitch bending.

Elaine: This is something that you would

Elaine: generally hear in a keyboard

Elaine: with that little roller on the

Elaine: side.

Trist: With a little

Elaine: Sometimes,

Trist: pitch bender.

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: yeah, sometimes you would hear it in a stringed instrument by

Elaine: actually, like increasing or like, you know, swinging the

Elaine: string to the side to be

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: able to, to swing it up.

Elaine: But, you know, to hear that pitch bending in a harmonica was

Elaine: kind of special, because I don't think you hear it that often,

Elaine: even in the type of music where you have harmonica as a solo.

Elaine: And the other thing that I heard was there was some really cool

Elaine: things having to do with, I think, the embouchure.

Elaine: So I was looking at that.

Elaine: And embouchure is something that

Elaine: I've really only heard within

Elaine: the context of brass

Elaine: instruments.

Elaine: But as I was looking at the harmonica, Wikipedia page, I was

Elaine: talking about how that embouchure actually helps you to

Elaine: get additional sounds out of it.

Elaine: So I heard, like this little

Elaine: trill that was happening near

Elaine: the end.

Elaine: I heard him going way, way, way

Elaine: high on the harmonica, which I

Elaine: don't

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: typically hear.

Elaine: And both of those things just

Elaine: really proved out the mastery

Elaine: that Stevie Wonder has over this

Elaine: instrument.

Trist: Yeah. There's a few things.

Trist: He uses a chromatic harmonica.

Trist: There are a few different kinds.

Trist: So it's a little bit larger instrument than what you would

Trist: see normally in a blues band where the singer just pops out

Trist: and play, that's a little bit easier, I guess.

Trist: but put the word in air quotes

Trist: in that oh, this blues is in G.

Trist: I'm going to pull out the G

Trist: harmonica.

Elaine: mm.

Trist: So it's just diatonic to that key.

Trist: So even if you're not really musical at playing the notes

Trist: together, when you go in and out on harmonica, at least it's

Trist: going to be notes in the key of what you're doing.

Trist: And it's hard to play quote unquote, sour notes.

Elaine: Right.

Trist: Now, you still need to be

Trist: musical and to be good at that

Trist: as well.

Trist: However, different than a whole chromatic instrument, like a

Trist: piano that's tempered, you can be in lots of different keys.

Trist: We're going to have a link in the show notes, about a

Trist: harmonica player named Howard Levy, plays with the band Bela

Trist: Fleck and the Flecktones.

Trist: He has a whole thing where he does a lot of the things most

Trist: players do on the chromatic harmonica, but he does them on

Trist: the diatonic harmonicas,

Elaine: Hmm.

Trist: and it's mind blowing and it's crazy.

Trist: And that's all I remember of it.

Trist: Eventually, I'm going to find the link and we're going to put

Trist: it in, the show notes.

Trist: And if you're interested in

Trist: crazy, mind blowing harmonica

Trist: techniques, that is where you

Trist: go.

Elaine: Okay! Awesome.

Elaine: Well,

Elaine: let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the blues,

Elaine: because this is the first blues song that we've done. I'd

Elaine: love to hear a little bit more about blues in general. And

Trist: Mm.

Elaine: if you can give us a little bit more context as to, the blues

Elaine: itself, the style, the structure that we generally can expect out

Elaine: of the blues.

Trist: Right.

Trist: It's really the most basic

Trist: structure, especially in jazz,

Trist: rock, pop music, a lot of it

Trist: stems from blues forms and chord

Trist: structures, What I hear when I

Trist: listen to this, because it's a

Trist: whole album of blues tunes and

Trist: it's Stevie Wonder and it's Tony

Trist: Bennett, and they have

Trist: schedules, the likes of people

Trist: of Tony Bennett and Stevie

Trist: Wonder's schedules.

Trist: I don't know this for sure, but

Trist: I would bet this is the first or

Trist: second take of this song and

Trist: then, "Cool.

Trist: Great to be here, Tony.

Trist: I'm out."

Trist: Like, it seems so impromptu.

Trist: And the key to that is the fact that it's the blues.

Trist: It's not like they had to do any massive study and catching up on

Trist: how the song goes.

Trist: It is so famous.

Trist: And I get that because when I listen to it, it's so loose.

Trist: Yet both of them are master

Trist: musicians, so they fit in very

Trist: comfortably.

Trist: The biggest tell for me is at the end.

Trist: The band is playing what seems like a pre-arranged "We're just

Trist: going to circle around this ending a little bit," and it

Trist: sounds to me, even though they're great at it.

Trist: They do not have a plan how they're going to end the song,

Trist: and it ends and it's not bad and no one really probably notices.

Trist: It doesn't sound like, "Oh man, that was so unprofessional.

Trist: They didn't know what they were doing."

Trist: No, it was "they were musical enough to make something musical

Trist: even though we didn't plan it" kind of an ending to me.

Trist: I have a feeling it's one of the first takes they did of it.

Trist: If they did even more than two or three, I'd be surprised.

Trist: So that's something that's

Trist: really cool about, this kind of

Trist: an album.

Trist: And I'm forgetting actually some of the rest of the album.

Trist: There may be some other things

Trist: that are more arranged, have

Trist: some more variations of some

Trist: things, But this is definitely a

Trist: "Okay, cool.

Trist: I've got like four hours on Thursday that I can come over

Trist: and be on your album with you and okay, bring my harmonica?

Trist: Great.

Trist: Sounds awesome.

Trist: We'll see you there."

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: So

Elaine: And we'll do it

Trist: that's

Elaine: in this one key.

Trist: exactly.

Trist: Yeah. I just love it for that.

Trist: I love the looseness of it.

Trist: And yet the mastery at the same time.

Elaine: Yeah. A couple of other things that fed into first of all, you

Elaine: were talking about the simple and common structure.

Elaine: It is also just three chords.

Elaine: Like a lot

Trist: Um

Elaine: of

Trist: hum.

Elaine: the blues tends to just live on I, IV, and V, but the other

Elaine: thing that I noticed is that Tony and Stevie actually

Elaine: switched back and forth.

Elaine: So, Tony had the first verse, Stevie had the second verse,

Elaine: Tony had the third verse, Stevie had the fourth and

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: then near the end they were actually trading twos.

Elaine: So they were calling back and forth where

Trist: Right.

Elaine: they were playing with each other in that way.

Elaine: And then Stevie ends it and ends on like either the diminished

Elaine: fifth or the tritone, however you want to call

Trist: Right.

Elaine: it. Um, but he just like, you know, wiggles around and, really

Elaine: just like, adds in that entire soul gospel feel into it at the

Elaine: very end, ends in this very

Trist: Right,

Elaine: jazzy place.

Elaine: Um,

Trist: right.

Elaine: so I just thought it was interesting that that structure

Elaine: is really common in the blues.

Elaine: And it lends itself really well to what you were just talking

Elaine: about, which is I'm really busy.

Elaine: I just need to prep my part.

Elaine: I really don't want to concern myself with needing to blend

Elaine: with anyone else or matching exactly this riff.

Elaine: You and I both coming from a cappella.

Elaine: We have to memorize these riffs to be able to get them so tight

Elaine: so that it sounds so natural.

Elaine: And in this kind of thing where you're trading twos or you're

Elaine: trading fours enables each person to prep independently.

Trist: Landing back to my thought about how impromptu it sounds.

Trist: it might sound kind of quaint where they'll say each other's

Trist: names just before.

Trist: I literally think some of that is almost like housekeeping.

Trist: Like directing.

Trist: Tony's like "Stevie Wonder.

Trist: Just in case you forgot you were going to go now."

Trist: You know, like, it seems like

Trist: the underpinning of that saying

Trist: his name to him, and then also

Trist: just how legitimately just blown

Trist: away Tony Bennett is by the

Trist: solo.

Trist: He's just like, wow, okay.

Trist: And then okay, you did that solo.

Trist: Now what do we do?

Trist: Okay.

Trist: Let's do this.

Trist: We did talk about we were going to trade smaller chunks of time.

Trist: Okay.

Trist: I remember we talked about that."

Trist: And then they're off anyway.

Trist: Just there's so many little

Trist: clues to me of it being pretty

Trist: chill.

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: Love it.

Elaine: So can we talk a little bit about the origin of the song?

Elaine: You mentioned that this was something that was fairly

Elaine: popular and maybe a standard.

Trist: again, I think probably the most famous version of this is by the

Trist: great Joe Williams, with the Count Basie Orchestra.

Trist: Also, B.B.

Trist: King basically had it as his theme song.

Trist: He would play that probably at every show.

Trist: In kind of the jazz blues singer world.

Trist: Joe Williams and B.B.

Trist: King are probably the most famous ones.

Trist: But I even looked back and

Trist: originally done by Pinetop

Trist: Sparks.

Trist: Now, you know it's old when your nickname is Pinetop, right?

Trist: Love it.

Trist: Old school blues thing from like the thirties.

Trist: And then had somebody borrow,

Trist: slash, steal, slash rework the

Trist: song.

Trist: a guy Memphis Slim who, his real

Trist: name is John Chapman, um, I

Trist: think credited

Elaine: Peter.

Trist: to Peter Chapman, but

Elaine: Yeah.

Trist: no, his real name was John Chapman.

Trist: Memphis

Elaine: Oh!

Trist: Slim took the main thing of it

Trist: and just kind of also did some

Trist: other verses, added some more

Trist: words.

Trist: So it'd be curious to do some search and see which party, made

Trist: all the money of all the covers that ever got done of this one,

Trist: there would be a bunch of cars and homes purchased from the

Trist: numbers of times that this song has been recorded.

Trist: Heck, they could probably both have some.

Trist: This song has been done so many times.

Trist: So I think that's the story of a lot of those kinds of things.

Trist: You trace back and start looking, oh, they got that

Trist: version from these people.

Trist: Oh, yep.

Trist: And I hear this.

Trist: And then you go and find those

Trist: early version and you can hear

Trist: the essence of it and how it

Trist: evolves.

Trist: Interesting note even when I was listening through again to the

Trist: Joe Williams that's so popular, there's a riff in the horns of

Trist: the big band that are a song from Ray Charles.

Trist: So as soon as we're done with this podcast, I'm going to chase

Trist: that down and see which one of those came first, or that's a

Trist: great time to use the mailbag.

Trist: And if someone out there knows you can let us know and tell me

Trist: all about it.

Elaine: Okay. Well, let's wrap up this section talking about Tony

Elaine: Bennett and his career.

Elaine: I know that he is incredibly prolific.

Elaine: He permeated pop culture, both my parents generation as

Trist: Um.

Elaine: well as my generation.

Elaine: yeah.

Elaine: Can you tell me more about his importance to just American

Elaine: music in general?

Trist: Wow. I mean, as one of the just

Trist: the great standard singers of

Trist: all time, one of the early

Trist: crooners.

Trist: but also, had a really interesting resurgence.

Trist: we mentioned lady Gaga and

Trist: obviously that was another

Trist: thing.

Trist: But boy, I think a real new entry into pop culture came when

Trist: he did MTV "Unplugged."

Trist: Do you remember MTV "Unplugged,"

Trist: where they would have artists

Trist: come and do their hits and

Trist: things, but again, just acoustic

Trist: instruments, etc.?

Elaine: Yeah. Mm-hm.

Trist: So well into that being a thing.

Trist: And then I'm guessing just trying to find interesting new

Trist: things to do.

Trist: They had Tony Bennett on there, which of course was interesting

Trist: because he was almost always using acoustic instruments, but

Trist: he did an MTV special and all of a sudden the standards were back

Trist: and that album did great for him and just put him right back in,

Trist: where I'm sure many, a parent and grandparent were listening

Trist: to their kid and grandkid telling them about Tony Bennett

Trist: and just, rolling their eyes like, yeah, yeah, yeah, he's

Trist: been around forever.

Trist: He. You're right.

Trist: He is cool."

Trist: So, I thought that was cool.

Trist: He always just kept wanting to do that thing.

Trist: And again, this continued even at the end of the career with

Trist: the aforementioned, music that he did with Lady Gaga.

Elaine: Yeah. One of the things that I watched during that time was

Elaine: Lady Gaga's interviews about her performances with Tony Bennett,

Elaine: and really how he brought out so much in her performance and how

Elaine: much respect that she had for him, and vice versa.

Elaine: And there was something about her interviews that really made

Elaine: me think that she was talking about a much loved grandfather

Elaine: and just the amount of love that she had in her voice for being

Elaine: able to perform with someone so iconic as Tony Bennett.

Elaine: And also just what she learned from that experience.

Elaine: And I think that, we got to see a little bit more of her

Elaine: artistry by stretching into the standards, by stretching into

Elaine: more of Tony Bennett's music versus her more enthusiastic pop

Elaine: music that she's been doing.

Elaine: And so, in some ways, like she stepped out of the Lady Gaga

Elaine: persona and into Stefani Germanotta and, you

Trist: All

Elaine: know, into

Trist: right.

Elaine: that performer

Trist: Well, and she did, sing a lot of

Trist: jazz, in her youth, She was like

Trist: in the jazz choir in high

Trist: school.

Trist: So I'm sure she loved it for that as well.

Elaine: Yeah. I love seeing that from artists and seeing a little bit

Elaine: more of their range, similar to what we're seeing out of Ariana

Elaine: Grande now, right?

Elaine: With the "Wicked" performances

Elaine: and her returning to more of her

Elaine: stage roots as opposed to the

Elaine: big, musical performances that

Elaine: she puts out underneath her own

Elaine: name.

Elaine: So it was just, really delightful to see that kind of

Elaine: expansion in our understanding of who they are.

Trist: Indeed.

Elaine: Okay. Well, any last thoughts

Elaine: about the song before we move

Elaine: on?

Trist: Man. Just don't forget about this one, y'all.

Trist: Play this one for your friends so they can hear the magic of

Trist: Stevie Wonder's harmonica solo.

Trist: That's really the only reason I chose this entire song. Tony Bennett

Trist: is amazing. Stevie Wonder's

Trist: singing is amazing, but if I could literally just

Trist: put that solo on repeat, I would. It's just

Trist: so great.

Elaine: It's absolutely gorgeous.

Elaine: Well, thanks for sharing this.

Elaine: And we're going to wrap up with our last segment which is.

Trist: Mailbag.

Elaine: that's right, the mailbag.

Elaine: We would love to hear from you.

Elaine: So if you would like to submit a question to us, please email us

Elaine: at themusiciansloupe, that's L-O-U-P-E at gmail.com, or catch

Elaine: us on Instagram or Threads at

Trist: Yes. And as we mentioned earlier, if you have any other

Trist: thoughts about the song, your favorite Tony Bennett, or maybe

Trist: there's another Stevie Wonder harmonica solo that I'm

Trist: forgetting about that's just as amazing, drop us a line and let

Trist: us know what you think.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: So this week comes from Alexandra Kay from Threads, and

Elaine: she is @alexandrakaymusic.

Elaine: So this comes from November of 2025.

Elaine: And it's a short video that was shared with some context.

Elaine: She was performing at Zia

Elaine: Records in Las Vegas, I think,

Elaine: and she writes, "First in-store

Elaine: performance and signing at Zia

Elaine: Records.

Elaine: I love you, see you at the next one."

Elaine: and so there was a little video that accompanied it just after

Elaine: her gig there.

Elaine: And one of the things that popped to mind as I was watching

Elaine: this was the role of record stores in the live music scene.

Elaine: And I'm kind of curious, what is your opinion of this?

Elaine: Like, is it a dying breed?

Elaine: Does it have a role to play?

Elaine: And what are your experiences?

Trist: Well, stuff in this category, it's probably going to seem like

Trist: a broken record for me, but it's changed so much.

Trist: I worked at record stores for ten different cumulative years

Trist: of my life.

Trist: So when I was working there, it was more of the old school major

Trist: label system where really the success on a major label was

Trist: really the only success there was not the only, but a much

Trist: bigger majority of people touring the world and / or

Trist: making music that the masses could hear could only happen via

Trist: having big label deals.

Trist: So the record stores were important because that was the

Trist: outlet, because you didn't have streaming, etc. So I think the

Trist: role is just so different.

Trist: I think there would be employees at record stores who had

Trist: favorite artists that they liked, so maybe they were a

Trist: little more inspired to do that little end cap display.

Trist: But most of the time, even that

Trist: isn't the person's inspiration

Trist: "Oh, of the ten artists that

Trist: were allowed to put on that

Trist: display, you pick the one you

Trist: like the most," you know, not

Trist: just, oh, here's this person on

Trist: an indie label that nobody

Trist: knows.

Trist: And I happen to get two little pictures of them.

Trist: So I'm going to make a thing.

Trist: That would happen in some independent stores.

Trist: But that's all there is left now.

Trist: I think they're important still, in terms of finding other

Trist: artists, just like in your streaming platforms that give

Trist: you recommendations, that's just a streaming digital version of

Trist: live in person.

Trist: That's why there are sections of

Trist: music in the record store

Trist: instead of just all being

Trist: alphabetical.

Trist: I keep all my albums alphabetically by artists, so I

Trist: know where to find them.

Trist: But that's easy for me.

Trist: In a record store, I want Miles

Trist: Davis to be in a jazz section,

Trist: because I want whoever's over

Trist: there to be around other music

Trist: that they might like that's in

Trist: that section.

Trist: so, they're important that way.

Trist: And then as an employee, "Oh, I see you've got that particular

Trist: Miles Davis album.

Trist: Have you heard this particular Freddie Hubbard album?

Trist: That reminds me a lot of this period of his playing?" etc. So,

Trist: they can be important for that.

Trist: And the few places that do allow and have in-store performances

Trist: and signing, frankly, those aren't for the artists, those

Trist: are for the record store and for their own commerce.

Trist: sure, you might get lucky and there's some synergy in that.

Trist: most of those things aren't

Trist: like, "Oh, you know what we

Trist: should do?

Trist: We really love this artist.

Trist: We'd love to have them come perform here."

Trist: It's not impossible for it to be

Trist: that way, but it's just not how

Trist: it goes.

Trist: It's, "Hey, I work for this indie label, and we have this

Trist: girl and she's playing at this concert, blah, blah, blah.

Trist: That'll help us promote it if we

Trist: can come in and do some signing,

Trist: because then that'll bring

Trist: traffic into your store and

Trist: maybe you'll sell some more

Trist: stuff."

Trist: That's not really the store trying to help out the artist.

Trist: The store is trying to help out itself, which isn't bad.

Trist: It's just the way you framed it isn't really how it goes.

Elaine: The times that I've performed in

Elaine: record stores has always been

Elaine: because someone's hired me to do

Elaine: it.

Elaine: And I wasn't entirely sure what the benefit was for either the

Elaine: artist or the store itself when we did these really small gigs.

Elaine: And, it wasn't like they were

Elaine: huge gigs, maybe we'd have

Elaine: twenty five people or maybe we'd

Elaine: be performing.

Elaine: And I don't know exactly how the

Elaine: people heard about us or

Elaine: anything.

Elaine: I just showed up.

Elaine: Because it was a gig.

Elaine: but one of the things that you

Elaine: were sharing kind of reminded me

Elaine: of book signings and thinking

Elaine: about

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: the authors that are out on the road, signing books at

Trist: Yeah.

Elaine: a

Trist: Same.

Elaine: variety of bookstores and, some of the stores that have hosted a

Elaine: variety of activities, whether it's a meet the author kind of

Elaine: thing or other types of activities, either have a

Elaine: charter to do so, meaning that, there's some kind of a space

Elaine: that caters to a specific demographic, for instance, Asian

Elaine: American bookstores, and they want to put something on for

Elaine: cultural reasons and really be that third space.

Elaine: And of course, you know, there's probably book sales involved

Elaine: with that or other type of merchandise sales that are going

Elaine: on at the same time that the author, bringing in people will

Elaine: help them with.

Elaine: So it is kind of a mutual benefit.

Elaine: Or it's one of those things

Elaine: where it's a broader bookstore,

Elaine: where it's a larger chain

Elaine: bookstore that is hosting an

Elaine: author.

Elaine: And part of it, I think, is that bookstores, similar to record

Elaine: stores, are struggling against the big name online booksellers.

Elaine: And we think about the online marketplaces that are there.

Elaine: It really doesn't enable a community to form around books.

Elaine: And one of the things that I've

Elaine: been thinking about is what is

Elaine: the role of record stores and

Elaine: bookstores for these different

Elaine: communities in building up

Elaine: community, and also in thinking

Elaine: about the concept of third

Elaine: spaces.

Elaine: And I don't know if that's

Elaine: something that you're familiar

Elaine: with, the concept of a third

Elaine: space.

Trist: Yeah. I've heard this term before.

Trist: What does this mean to you?

Elaine: So a third space is defined as a space outside of home and work

Elaine: where you can actually have more casual interactions with people.

Elaine: So you can think of a cafe or

Elaine: like I mentioned, a bookstore or

Elaine: a record store where you can

Elaine: have conversations

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: with people who are interested

Elaine: in the same kind of things that

Elaine: you are.

Elaine: And there's

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: been a number of studies out there that have said that third

Elaine: spaces are slowly disappearing, but you're also hearing people

Elaine: trying to find these third spaces for themselves.

Elaine: So it

Trist: Mhm.

Elaine: could be one of those things

Elaine: where it's like, oh, there's a

Elaine: maker space or my martial arts

Elaine: club.

Trist: Record stores would definitely fit that for sure.

Elaine: Yeah. And so thinking about what does it mean to create and

Elaine: cultivate community, and what is the role of an artist in

Elaine: engaging in that.

Elaine: And I think that there is

Elaine: something that is kind of

Elaine: interesting about thinking

Elaine: through that entire ecosystem,

Elaine: especially in a world where

Elaine: we're becoming increasingly more

Elaine: detached from one another in

Elaine: these spaces.

Elaine: And I think things like concerts, things like in-person

Elaine: shopping experiences are those types of things where we end up

Elaine: with third spaces where people can gather and really have

Elaine: conversation or experience something special together.

Trist: Yeah, it's just another facet of our culture no longer really

Trist: being a monoculture.

Trist: So trying to find those places where you can have experiences

Trist: with others that are into the same things as you.

Elaine: So what you were talking about

Elaine: before, in terms of the

Elaine: relationship between the artist

Elaine: and the store, I see that as a

Elaine: mutually beneficial relationship

Elaine: where the store can help to

Elaine: promote these events, and also

Elaine: the individual artists can help

Elaine: to promote the event as well to

Elaine: their group.

Elaine: And it could be one of those

Elaine: things where it's like a Venn

Elaine: diagram, right?

Elaine: It's a brand

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: new space.

Elaine: Let's go into this space.

Elaine: And certainly

Trist: Sure.

Elaine: for me as an artist, it was the first time for me going into

Elaine: this particular space because it wasn't my local record store.

Elaine: I had

Trist: Right.

Elaine: to travel for it and it was a really interesting space.

Elaine: But it was one of those things

Elaine: where I have to think a little

Elaine: bit more about it, because as

Elaine: I'm looking at more book

Elaine: signings, as I'm looking at

Elaine: opportunities to go see some of

Elaine: my favorite authors, or just to

Elaine: support people who I've met

Elaine: online, that is something that I

Elaine: would love to be able to

Elaine: continue to do and to commit to

Elaine: doing.

Elaine: So similar to that, I would be interested to see how we can

Elaine: intentionally grow these spaces.

Elaine: And I know we were talking recently about how we can

Elaine: support venues, and it seems like record stores are just

Elaine: another type of venue.

Trist: Yeah. I think that's an

Trist: extension of that, of that same

Trist: conversation.

Trist: That's a great point.

Elaine: Awesome.

Elaine: So any last thoughts on this before we close out?

Trist: I think that's it.

Trist: Now I've got the itch.

Trist: I need to go to my local record store, so.

Trist: Okay, I'm gonna go there.

Trist: Okay, bye.

Elaine: Okay, bye.

Elaine: So with that, thanks for joining us this week.

Elaine: We would love to hear from you.

Elaine: Please reach out to us via email or online via social media.

Elaine: We would love to hear from you.

Elaine: So with that, we'll see you next week.

Trist: See you later!

Trist: Amoeba Music, here I come!

Trist: You were holding this thought all of that time.

Trist: And don't forget this other point I forgot to make.

Elaine: Just say yep.

Trist: Use your words.

Trist: Used to say that when they were little.

Elaine: We're going to have a great

Elaine: outtake section, is what I'm

Elaine: saying.

Trist: Dude, that's going to be our moneymakers.

Trist: All the outtakes.

Elaine: It's a podcast.

Elaine: You have to say something!

Trist: You didn't.

Trist: You didn't like me shaking my head?

Trist: Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry.

Elaine: I got to do that without the sigh.

Trist: And welcome to flight two hundred seventy four