In this episode of The Aspiring Psychologist Podcast, we explore what it really means to be care experienced and how early experiences of foster care and the care system can shape identity, relationships, and career journeys into clinical psychology.I’m joined by Jacob Maspero Bottaio, one of the youngest trainee clinical psychologists in the UK, who shares his experience of entering the care system at a young age, moving between foster placements, experiencing a failed adoption, and navigating the emotional and systemic barriers on the path to clinical psychology training.Together, we discuss care experience, hyper-independence, attachment, supervision dynamics, readiness for training, and what compassionate inclusion in psychology genuinely looks like. This is a thoughtful, emotionally rich conversation about resilience, systems, safety, and what it takes to feel able to lean on others after a lifetime of survival.This episode is especially relevant for aspiring psychologists, trainee clinical psychologists, supervisors, and anyone interested in widening access to clinical psychology with compassion rather than tokenism.Highlights

(Timestamps)

1. 00:00 – Jacob’s early life in the care system and why his story matters
2. 01:50 – Defining “care experienced” and why it’s broader than people think
3. 03:26 – Why care experience can make psychology careers harder to access
4. 05:29 – Disclosure, stigma, and fear of how lived experience will be received
5. 07:26 – Financial and systemic barriers before training even begins
6. 10:53 – Hyper-independence, driving, and needing control over your future
7. 15:06 – Growing up fast and being “older than your years”
8. 18:27 – Forever people, attachment, and learning to exhale
9. 22:59 – Safety, the amygdala, and relearning trust
10. 27:15 – Adoption, systems, and not being asked what you want
11. 32:35 – Supervision styles, boundaries, and relational triggers
12. 39:46 – Readiness for training and compassion toward yourself
13. 47:35 – Repair, relationships, and what Jacob hopes for others

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Jacob entered the care system. Age five moved between foster homes, endured a failed adoption and still became one of the youngest trainee psychologists in the country. But the real story isn't that he made it. It's what he had to unlearn, survive, and rebuild along the way. If you've ever wondered what resilience and compassion really look like, this conversation will stay with you if you find it helpful, like and subscribe for more. Hi, I just want to welcome along our guest for today, Jacob Maspero Battaio. Hi Jacob.

Hi Marianne. Thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm really excited to be here.

I'm excited to host you and you and I have been in each other's dms for almost three years now. I checked earlier and it's been really lovely. Sort of following a little bit of your story, could you tell us a little bit about you if that's okay, Jacob?

Yeah, definitely. So three years, that sounds like a really long time, but I suppose my story did start about three years ago when I kind of finished my undergraduate degree in psychology and I then started the search for assistant psychologist posts and clinical psychology is always something that I've been interested in and I suppose it was from there that I then started looking but underpinning all of this is the fact that I have care experience and I grew up care experience and I think that's been a really important part of my journey that has given me a different lens on what it means to be a clinical psychologist and what makes a good clinical psychologist. So it's definitely given me a different spin on the career.

Absolutely it has. Could you define the term care experience for anyone? You might not be sure Jacob.

Yeah, this is a really interesting and important definition. I think older definitions used to speak about care experience in som much as having, I think it was 20 days of experience being cared for by a corporate parenting system. And a corporate parenting system is kind of a system of professionals that aim to keep you safe and to keep you kind of cared for essentially. Whereas nowadays care experience is something that we most more progressive and compassionate services will view as any length of time that you've been in experience of a corporate parenting system. But also really importantly, if you have been estranged from your family, if you are not in contact with your family for any reason and you've had to go at life alone for a certain period of time, that also counts as having that care experience. And I think that's a really important kind of distinction to make. So thank you for bringing that up.

Well thank you for sharing your experiences. So kind of honesty and openly and if we're really getting nuts and bolts about this, why is it harder for someone who's care experienced to have a professional career specifically in psychology?

Yeah. And it can be harder and I can share some of my experience, which might be helpful for me. I think there's this real essence of when you're applying or when you're looking to apply to become a trainee clinical psychologist, which I've managed to do, there is this sense of how far back in your history does this application look at? Some will look at a levels, some I think used to even look at GCSEs. And I think for me, I remember when I was doing my GCSEs, I was not a perfect student. I didn't really care about doing my GCSEs. I think that's quite a shared experience with so many different people as well. So yeah, I think for me that's where things kind of started. That's when I was having quite a difficult time of my life and then A levels as well. That's when I did psychology off the cuff.

I didn't mean to do psychology, I was doing fine art French and photography and decided I don't really like the photography teacher. So my friend was set opposite to me and said, well psychology is in that kind of part of the timetable. Do you want to just switch over? And I think it was one of the last days I did switch over to psychology and I really enjoyed it, which is really lucky. But I suppose from then on is when I had this new found interest for what can I do with this knowledge, this feels important to use, I think we'd learn about bowley's Monotronic theory of attachment and the still face and all of those things felt really important and how do I translate them into practise? So that's when I looked into what can I do with this? And clinical psychology was of course has always been for quite a long time the way that you can apply this knowledge into practise.

And what makes it difficult is I've spoken about how far does this application look back in your life, but also the kind of emotional aspects that might come with this experience. So when I got to the point of writing the application, what also made it difficult was how much do I disclose of myself and is this going to be looked at with a compassionate lens? Are people going to see the value in this experience or are people going to find this difficult to hold? So there is this real kind of tension between how much of yourself do you want to bring. And I think I've always been the person that will kind of champion. I'm happy to take on that responsibility of championing care experience people. Not that it is kind of any one person's responsibility, but it's something that I've always felt particularly passionate about.

So there is that emotional aspect. And then when you're on training, I know we were speaking about earlier Marianne, the difficulties that can come up with therapeutic relationships and how they can replicate some of those difficult dynamics. So there is a real kind of felt sense of is this going to be difficult for me? And I suppose along with that, the systemic barriers, the ones that are harder to change and always there. And I suppose luckily clinical psychology is a training programme that you are paid to do, which is why I think for more and more care experience than estranged people that that's kind of the pathway that they want to go down when they think about applying for a way that they can apply their psychological knowledge. But before that, there's this kind of period of time where you need to build some experience.

And to do that, you might have to take on kind of an assistant psychologist post that is often a band four. I know there are some band fives and if you are a band five, that's very lucky. I think a lot of us are band four or not anymore. But yeah, it's a difficult salary to live with. And for a lot of people as well that are care experience psychology isn't their first career. They establish themselves. I know I've got some friends that were teachers that had these really well-established professional identities that they aren't good enough money to have a family on and then you kind of have to go back from there. So that can be really difficult. And I think one of my particular gripes I would say in, and it's a difficult thing to talk about is the fact that when you apply as well, you have to have a BPS accredited psychology degree.

And I think I can only draw from my experience, I've always found that useful to have. For me that's always been really useful knowledge to apply on training so far. And lots of people won't have that and lots of people won't have it because maybe the degree that they had wasn't BPS accredited for one reason or another. So I think it's a really difficult tension to hold. But those are kind of a few of the barriers when your care experience. And of course one of the largest ones is the emotional and the kind of support networks because training can be really hard and a lot of care experience is strange. People won't have that. But those are a few and I hope I've given them justice, but there will be so many more.

Yeah, absolutely. And it's listening to you, I was kind of thinking of, I dunno, maybe some parallels that were just, well, not even parallels like opposites really. I used to have to get up really early to do some of my early aspiring jobs. So I was a home carer, best job ever. Loved it. But obviously you were having to get up before people have their breakfast. So I was getting up really early. My dad would get up early and eat, we call it our first breakfast. We'd eat our first breakfast together, then I'd go off and go and get all my clients up out of bed and give them their breakfast. Then I'd come home for my second breakfast. My dad had gone to work by then, but it was someone that just wanted to spend that time with me. And when I was growing up before that, I was older than my first job was working in boots in Milton Keynes. But I just decided on a whim to apply because I obviously wanted some money and I thought the job sounded good, but it was 10 miles away from where I lived and just expected that my parents will drive me there and back on a Saturday and a Sunday. And even that for someone it's care experienced, you haven't necessarily got that companionship and you haven't got someone that is your taxi necessarily. It's just harder to even get started in those early roles, let alone the paving. Terrible.

Yeah, absolutely. And there are definitely some of those logistic kind of how is this going to work? And for me, I moved to kind of mid Sussex so I could get any job in Sussex and I'm fortunate enough to have been able to learn to drive. And it was something that when I turned 17 I was like, right, let's get driving. Even though at that point I lived in London and I really didn't need to drive, I just thought I want to do this. And if we think also about our intersectionalities, there are many parts of my identity that are privileged compared to other people. So being a male and a white male and living in London as well, there are so many different positions of privilege that I also hold alongside some more difficult parts of my identity, which have made parts of the journey easier.

So driving is one of those, but certainly there are so many that have made it equally as difficult. So I think when I applied for my first assistant psychologist post, the way that I was able to even that out was through disclosing my identity to a service that worked with care experience children. So that for me felt like I had my foot in the door that I could give them a in-group knowledge that maybe they wouldn't have been able to have otherwise. And I really would say that it's about thinking about parts of you that you feel comfortable to capitalise on and use to even out some of the disadvantage that you might have had. And that was my way of doing it. And luckily I was fortunate enough to have learned to drive and at that point I had a car and then on the band four salary, having to fill up my car with petrol.

That was difficult. But there are so many different things that can make it hard and I didn't have to get another job alongside. I'm quite good at budgeting sometimes unless it comes to Black Friday and there are some interesting things on sale but, and I think that for me made it easier, but I had to make sacrifice. I had to capitalise on parts of my identity and I had to do things that maybe other people may not have had to do. And it's important to keep that in mind, particularly going forward onto training because these things might serve as a real advantage. You might have built this sense of grit or resilience that you can use to help you get through, but you might have also got to a point where you're feeling burnt out, you're feeling quite tired and it's okay to feel that way. And there are moments where I have felt that way as well. And it's about finding a way that you can balance these things out, use what you've got to your advantage and know that it's okay to do that while also appreciating that you can do that because there are things that have been really difficult for you. And certainly that was my experience coming into it.

And I had the sense of you wanting to make sure that you were able to live independently and able to apply to a job here and there and then not be the barrier of, oh, I can't get a bus or I can't get a train. So it's like it was always important to you to be able to be in the driving seat metaphorically. And really literally, that's the word isn't it, to be able to take you in the direction you wanted to go because maybe so much of your story has been dependent on others having the time or having the interest or caring enough. And actually you were like, I can't take that risk. I can't take that gamble. I need to be in control of my own destiny. So I love that you learned to drive and that you are like, this is happening.

And actually just before we hit record, I asked you how old you are. I hope that was okay that I did that. And you told me that when you started training you were 23 and I said, well, I think you are the youngest trainee I've ever known in that case, but you don't seem 24 now. You seem older than your years. And I think when you've been through adverse experiences or even just different experiences where you've had to hold your shit together a bit more and be more self-controlled and drive your own agenda, I think that just would you agree it ages you, makes you grow up quick,

Grow a hundred percent. And it's kind of a socialisation process I suppose I would see it as to some extent that you have to walk the walk and talk the talk. You've got to make sure that you can show people that you, you've got that you've kind of sense that you can do this. And I think it was a really lovely observation to hear how you viewed my experience of coming into it. And I think it's really true that I had to develop this real kind of go with the hyper independence that often we will see people develop when they've had adverse experiences and sometimes it can be really disadvantageous, but also it can help you through so many different things. And I do think that some of me being in this position now comes from not being able to take the risk on other people and having to go with that independence and having to really hold on to myself and develop that secure attachment to myself and my knowledge that I can do this.

Which it's been a really hard journey. And naturally there are times where you doubt yourself and you think, oh, I really wish someone was there to, especially when you might be feeling, as I mentioned earlier, burnout or sick or whatever's coming up for you. You just want someone there to just make it easier. And sometimes a lot of the time people with care experience won't have that. And so you do have to develop that kind of ability to hold yourself and when you go into training and you start to become a clinical psychologist, you're on that pathway. Part of that for me has been about leaning on my fellow trainees and leaning on the support that the course provides and knowing that it's been hard to get here and you've had to make quite a lot of sacrifice to get here, but now is the time that you can do what you haven't been able to do, which is lean on people, feel the support and feel the love that other people have for you. That feels really foreign sometimes, but it's usually always been there with your chosen family and friends, but maybe it's been harder to feel and you've had to kind of not take the risk and just do things alone and now you don't have to. So that's really been my experience of getting onto training and that's a really valuable reflection

Is that really powerful idea of forever people. And it's whether you've ever really allowed yourself to feel like someone is a forever person and if someone tells you they are, it's whether you really can put both feet in there and feel that or whether you are always sort of slightly ready to look after yourself. And ultimately as a mommy and as a wife and as a psychologist, I would hope that there does become that comfortability with that sense of family and connection and genuine friendships where you know that you can take as well as give and that that's okay. You don't always need to be the fixer or the helper that it's okay to say somebody's struggling at the moment, could you come to my house instead or could we just speak more regularly on the phone or can we do this? Can you just be my friend? And you don't necessarily need to open up about this. This might be feel too exposing. But I would just ultimately want for you and for anyone that's care experienced to be able to have that deep exhale. Do you know what I mean? Where you're like you have that contentment, you've got your favourite blanket and actually the people around you feel like they are on your team.

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, so I have so many parallels with that experience of kind of now I can exhale now and I can kind of relax a little bit. They say when you get on the course you're no longer in competition with your peers and you do really feel that and you kind of feel this community, which I've grown to feel slightly more comfortable with, but certainly as well. And I'm also thinking as well for most practitioners and most people on my course as well, there will be some form of lived experience that they've had that kind of touches a part of them when we're doing the lecture content or something comes up in a relationship that they've had outside or in therapy with someone. It can be really difficult for so many different, and I think this is something that applies beyond care experience but is equally as important as, and I suppose for me, my experience has definitely been difficult.

I've had some kind of important people in my life. I've had some family and friends that have always fortunately been there for me, but I've also had people that haven't been there for me. And I think when you're at such a young age as using the knowledge that we know naturally, if you kind of balance the odds, the body and the brain tells you it's too risky to trust anyone. If I've had this done to me before, it's probably going to happen again and I can't take that risk. So I suppose for me it is been about kind of training my body and training my brain to go now it's okay and it's been okay for a while, but particularly now when you've got the support, you've got this really tangible network of people that you can come out of that fight, really come out of that fight or flight, your threat system and you can just be and feel what being with and connecting with feels like.

So that's been a really important part of my journey of developing those longer standing relationships with people that you can give and take from. And I was, last weekend I was up in w Hampton with one of my friends driving all the way there and back, which I was more than happy to do because she wanted to pick up a new puppy that she had found. And it's kind of these relationships that you develop that are linked with the journey that you've been on in clinical psychology but also applicable outside that kind of train you without you realising it's kind of an implicit or kind of unknown process that as you grow older and as you have this security and the support network, you start to feel differently. And I'm really grateful for that.

I hope you get to spend some time with that puppy. Yeah, because it's a pattern matching part of our brain that's kind of driven by the amygdala that's looking for threat, looking for danger, and it kind of takes you from being that bird in the garden that's kind of peck look, peck look always looking for that threat and that kind of risk to self to actually a really lovely example that I was watching on TikTok yesterday. Oh, can't you lose days on TikTok sometimes where someone has trained two robins to come into her home and feed there and be around her and land on her hand in her garden and her garden furniture. And she's done that over time by being a safe person, by picking actually the type of food that she realises that Robin likes best to help the Robin know, actually I'm a safe person.

And she said something really powerful, she said, I've realised from all the research I've done about Robins that actually the average lifespan is about 13 months and that means that I might not be with these robins for much longer, but actually biologically they can get to be 20 years. It's just that they rarely do, they have such stressful experiences where they don't have enough food. And I think for me there's that parallel isn't that if you find your safe and for other people, life can be so much more comfortable and ultimately you will be less stressed and you will live longer. I really hope so. Sorry to compare you to Robin's, but it just felt really powerfully important there.

Definitely. And I felt myself and I said, wow, when you're telling the story, because a birds are just so skittish, they never come up to you, they always fly away. And you don't often hear that story of developing a relationship like that. And it is a good comparison to make. It's a really good analogy because I think there are times where as you say, the amygdala sees someone or something or what could have been a positive experience as a threat. And so naturally it's not something that we explore, but through trying time and time again and kind of training our body and our brain to notice what else, are there safe parts about this experience or this person and can we think more about those and feel those slightly more deeply? Eventually you can get used to it. And I suppose for me, in my experience, it has been a long time, but definitely I really like that comparison to a robin and they're beautiful birds. So I'm going to take that as a compliment as well.

Absolutely, absolutely. And before we hit record, you were telling me that actually your experience in the care system started incredibly young. I think you said you were in year one and that's just a lot, a lot for you to have had to bear from a young age. And I'm just, as a mommy, I'm just really sad that happened to you and your experiences have been different. I'm not suggesting that everybody that's been raised by their families have had gold standard a treatment like a star treatment because they haven't have they. And I know that in the care system recently there'd been a change because actually it was always felt that it was in the child's best interest to retain a relationship with their biological parent. And I think I'm right in saying that's changed recently because even children that have been born as a result of rape have sometimes been asked to maintain a relationship with their birth father or an actual fact that's not even just a whole host of complicated things there, but I believe it's changed so that you don't have to always maintain that and that the child's voice can be listened to more.

But I just think it is harder to have been through what you've been through. That's in a nutshell what I'm saying. And as a mommy of two boys, I'm really moved by what you've been through both as a child, as an adolescent, and currently.

Yeah, and I think you are right in saying that I think there have been some kind of policy reviews that really did look into the experiences of children currently in care. And I think you are right in saying that that's now no longer kind of a prerequisite that you must have contact with family. And oftentimes in my experience, and I'm happy to share some of this, that as you said, I came into care when I was in year one, so it was sort of around five, six years old. And then I was in care from a foster carer for about four years, and then I went to get adopted from London all the way to Wakefield, and that didn't work out after a few months. So then I came back to the same foster carer, thank goodness we know what the impact of continuity can have.

And the same therapist. So two really important cornerstones of my early life that remained the same through a difficult time. And I suppose for me through that part of my experience through going to be adopted, I had often said, has anyone stopped to ask me how I feel? Nobody's asked me what I think and whether I'm happy with this. And I suppose it speaks to this wider pressure that's on systems nowadays that there aren't enough foster carers. The caring profession is really on its knees. There's no one, there's not many people. And I think it can be really difficult. And as you were saying as well, we're not saying that all families, that all people that live with their chosen or biological family have better experiences. Definitely there are really difficult times and I suppose the difference that really for me feels quite important with care experience and individuals that have been estranged is that direct or tenuous contact with these systems that can add a level of pressure and a level of difficulty.

And I suppose, and it's really lovely to feel that kind of motherly instinct that you've got and it is something that I've definitely experienced a lot of and through systems as well. And the way that systems to make sure that they're doing their best are to kind of ask you lots of questions, to collect data, to ask questionnaires. And when I was growing up, I think there was a cyclical pattern of having what were once called, and I'm not sure whether they still are, but lack reviews and pep reviews I think as well. And as part of that process, these are meetings where you kind of review how things are going, how you're feeling, how your school experience is going. And part of that is filling out these really boring, really annoying questionnaires and why, because that's how the systems in place at that time needed to be able to see how they were doing and how cared for you were.

And of course that adds another layer of difficulty onto it. For me, I kind of got to the point where I was like, I cannot be bothered to sit on top of homework, which I probably wasn't doing. So then I have to do one of these long questionnaires. And I admittedly at one point when I was a little bit older, I started just putting random answers that I knew. I think I learned the system and I kind of knew that if I put something down that indicated a level of risk or something going on that they might panic. And I kind of did that at points to just show that this isn't a way of caring, this is another responsibility, another level of difficulty. So I think the difference between care experience and difficult family experiences, which are just as important particularly for practitioners where things can be replicated in therapeutic relationships, is the relationship that care experience people have with systems. So for me, coming into the NHS and coming into my training experience, it's been really important to hold on to my previous relationships with these systems and know that they might touch parts of me that feel really uncomfortable and is that something I'm ready to do?

And if you are in a relationship then where they do want to be quite maternal, is that their personal style or is that what your relationship with them is eliciting? And for me, I would say it probably is my personal style. So I do mother do mother people. It was observed just at the weekend when I was with a load of my qualified psychologist friends, they were all going off on their train journeys and I was like, Ooh, does anyone want any kombucha? I've got some in my bag and was giving out these tins of kombucha. And one of my friends, I've known her since we're assistants, went, you're taking care of us, aren't you? You're giving us gifts to make sure we're going to be okay. And I was like, yes, I am. But also it's really tasty, so go and drink it, it'll be fine.

But that is just my style. When I had an assistant when I was in the NHS, we'd come and have supervision at my house and I'd make her hot chocolate with cream and marshmallows. That is just my style. Whereas if you were having that, you might think, oh, she's trying to mother me. It's like, well no, because my previous assistant was very well mothered and this is just my style. But also maybe there's something to reflect on there, what would it be like if I wasn't mothering my assistants every day is a school day. Right. But yeah, it, it's, and I think thinking about some of my trainee supervisors, some of them were really nurturing, some of them were a bit more hands-off. Some of them I learned a lot from. I think all of them I learned a lot from, some of them I've kept in my life, some of them I haven't.

And another reflection like biochemically, sometimes I think we just sometimes meet someone and you get on really well, don't you? And you feel comfortable with them. And listening to what you said about when you met your adoptive family, there's that sense of, well, what was that like for you as a young person? Do you just suddenly go from hi to this is my new mom? And when do we ask for the child? When do we give them that safe space to check in with how it's feeling, whether you think this will be viable or whether everyone's kind of trying to jolly you up and smooth it over with some plaster to make it all work and not have these cracks turn into crevices. Does that kind of make sense, Jacob?

Yeah, definitely. And something I've always held in mind is that we all have, people might think differently, but I think that we all have this inner child that we are parenting day to day that will influence our relationships. And another way of thinking about it is the internal working model from bowlby's attachment theory. And for people that might not be aware of what that is, it's kind of this sense of a model of relationships and how they should be and what we should accept and how relationships have therefore been in our past that have us what to accept and I suppose, and how to be in relationships as well. And I suppose for me, coming into kind of supervisory relationships as well, I've had a real mix. I've definitely had some really kind of nurturing and motherly supervision and I've also had some really clinical supervision that's more about the work and what are we doing with this case and how is this feeling?

But I think underpinning all of this is my belief that we all have an inner child that will be influencing our relationships. And naturally sometimes these children want to share, sometimes they don't want to share. Sometimes they get along and sometimes they don't. And whether or not it comes out kind of explicitly and we see these things coming out, they will still be there whether or not we've got this felt sense that this relationship feels safe. And I think it's about looking under the surface about what the context is and why. So for me, in that particular experience, it didn't feel safe to be with these adoptive parents because you are right. It felt like I was being chivvied up to kind of, this is a really good thing, but who's it good for? Because no one asked me. It is good for the system that now there's another spot for a child to be looked after by my foster carer, which is a difficult thing anyway, but really that's what it comes down to, that there's another spot open.

So for the system, yes, it's a really good thing that now they can put a green tick and there's a good outcome that I've kind of been adopted. Yeah, this is the goal and actually things aren't always as linear as that. And thinking about it in supervision and in clinical psychology as well, these reflections around relationships and what we think relationships should be are so important for how we are with clients in the room and how we approach clients and how we show them empathy and kind of just relate on a personal as well as professional level and in supervision as well. And I think style comes into it in bucket loads. Whether or not someone's style feels right to you is a completely valid point to hold. And I think when you have a difficult experience with relationships, for me I found it really hard to know is this style, can I kind of question this?

Can I approach this with a curious stance or is this my stuff coming out? I just don't like it because it feels difficult and a part of me is being activated. And I think growing into the profession and the more practise you have as we were talking about earlier, the more your robin becomes tamed and your amygdala sees fewer things as threats. And I suppose this is why for me, I think it's really important to think about readiness for training and readiness for taking on that role as a trainee, clinical psychologist, and even taking on responsible roles in caring professions. I think it's an ongoing and continual process of using and disseminating these points of knowledge to ourself and also integrating our own experiences. I've listened to your podcast for a really long time and I know this is why I felt like this is a really perfect place for us to have this discussion because I know that your stance is making sure that people feel compassionate toward themselves and having that kind of holding that compassion and is this the right time for me to come on to training?

And it's a really difficult question for us to grapple with before we hit record. Something that we spoke about was how young I am, and we mentioned it now, I could have applied to training straight from university, I could have kind of accelerated the journey even more and I didn't and had a supervisor at the time that was saying when I first applied for training, when I kind of thought, I'm not sure if I'm ready, but I think I could be, so I'm going to give it a go. My supervisor was really good at keeping that open. Is this something that you're ready for? At the time, it felt really hard to think about, but now I'm really thankful I did and I'm still not sure that I'm ready for training. And I don't know that there is this point that someone feels completely ready, but I feel that I'm coping and I feel that I've got this compassion that I hold toward myself despite and including all of these difficult experiences that I can still hold a stance of compassion toward myself, which feels ultimately the most important part.

Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And when we are looking at readiness, I'm always screening people that I meet to see whether you'd tick. They're ready for clinical training box. And I would for you, Jacob, you seem reflective, you seem grounded, you seem able to draw on theory and to weave it in appropriately. And you seem contained, which is we don't want you to be too leaky. There's got to be an element of humanness. But we've also got to think that actually we are confident in sending you out there to do clinical work with actual clients and services and family groups. And I wouldn't have any hesitation about ticking your, ticking your yes box. But that's not saying that I'd expect you to be a perfect trainee. It's not saying that I'd expect myself to be a perfect supervisor, but what I would want for you and for anyone listening to this episode is to feel safe enough to be able to bring stuff to the relationship to discuss that supervision relationship, to recognise that neither of you are perfect people, but to optimise that relationship really, and for you ultimately to feel safe enough to be able to do that, to be honest and authentic and curious and draw in that theory, draw in reflective models and I guess ask for help when you need it, really if and when you need it so that you know that you are not having to be autonomous all of the time.

It's that striking, that balance, isn't it, between appropriate autonomy and then not being so autonomous that you feel like you can operate the whole system without them, which I'm aware before we hit record for a time period you were having to do because of the way that the organisation was structured, this is before training. It's really hard as not being so dependent that you are having to email your supervisor or you want to be in their office every minute or every single client you're with. You think, I wish my supervisor was sitting. It's that fine balance. And for me, that's been something I have had to learn to be more contained. I think originally when I was an assistant, I used to want to email my supervisor everything to check it or to say, I've done this, I've done this. And over time they were like, okay, but perhaps wait for supervision because that's not urgent. And it's just learning to hold that and be more contained. It's a whole process.

Yeah, and it is a process and the process continues beyond training through training before training. And I think it's something that picking up the language that you were using, perfect. There is no perfect. I know for me, I've always held this sense of perfectionism I need to, and I think training and getting onto training does cultivate that to some extent that you've got to kind be slightly above and beyond other people to be able to get on. And it does lend itself to that experience and temperament. But I suppose unlearning that and coming into these relationships in supervision where sometimes it can feel really hard to challenge the dynamic, the power dynamic, and you are also then potentially challenging some of the dynamics that you've held onto and your internal working model or your inner child is experiencing this relationship in a certain way that feels difficult for you to challenge.

But I suppose holding yourself as an adult and holding yourself as a child alongside everything you've experienced positively feels really important. And that challenge of challenging the dynamics in supervision is always probably going to be there. And I think in part because you are challenging the relationship and you are maybe creating a tiny rupture and repair hasn't always been easy for lots of people. So is it going to happen? Are we going to repair? But also in challenging that relationship, you might be challenging a wider system, a wider way of doing things. You might be challenging something that has always been there and hasn't been questioned because someone like you may not have been there to challenge you. So I suppose it's always a process and there is no ideal. And I think approaching these things with compassion feels really important for you to then be able to continue to always adopt that curious stance of, I wonder why these things are going on and I wonder what they can tell us.

So I suppose for me, that sense of being contained really comes from practise, really comes from experience of having to do these things. And as you mentioned, I did work in a system that we know isn't perfect. The NHS can be really difficult sometimes. And I did work as a lone assistant psychologist for quite some time and practising what I preach, I can hold onto the positives that that's really given me this newfound sense of knowing what kind of psychologist I want to be in and how I can operate within these systems that can challenge our intrinsic sense of how we want to care for people. But also holding onto the negatives as well that I didn't therefore have that really motherly and that kind of really caring experience that so many people would've had. And so there will naturally be differences in the style that you learn to adopt, and it's just that it's a style and you can question it and you can enlighten your supervisors, you can enlighten your peers and your colleagues in a way that feels compassionate, but it is certainly a process to learn how to do that.

It really is. And I wish you a career and a life full of being able to repair the ruptures that serve you best. So we can't repair all ruptures, nor do we want to sometimes. But yeah, the ones that you want to keep, I hope that you are able to appropriately repair them. Before we were planning this episode, we thought there might be a chance to record a couple of episodes today and to think about what other areas we might want to cover. And I've kept you talking for so long that we're not going to have a chance to do that today. But for anyone listening or watching this, if there's other future ideas for topics that they think would be really interesting for you and I to discuss in future, I'd love it if they'd drop that in the comments on YouTube or on Spotify. I've really, really, really valued our time talking today, and thank you for sharing your story so freely. I know I'll speak for myself and for our audience who wish you all the very best with your training and whatever comes next, is there anything we haven't said, Jacob, that you think we should be covering or leaving our audience with before we do finish?

It's a big question, isn't it? And I feel, thank you so much by the way, that's really lovely to hear and I've really enjoyed talking on this podcast as well. I think, as I said, a really apt and a lovely place to be able to talk about these things. So thank you for having me on the podcast. But I think I would echo what you say, Marianne, if people do have something that they would find important to talk about or to explore in more depth, I would say that that to me is more important because I can ramble on, I can talk so much, which I'm happy to do, but I don't want to do it at the expense of other people's valuable time. So if there is something that people find useful, please let Marianne know and we can definitely have a more extended conversation about these things.

Absolutely. Thank you again for your time, Jacob. And yeah, I hope that you can have, we are recording this in December, but I hope you can have a really nice decompression over the Christmas period and I hope that you are spoiled and nurtured and looked after wonderfully.

Thank you, Marianne.

Thank you. Thank you so much to Jacob for his time and also in sticking with me for the upload. I know that took some time, so thank you, Jacob. What a fascinating, thoughtful, inspiring guest. I would love it if you are able to show Jacob your support both on YouTube and if you are listening on Spotify, it feels like a real privilege to have had Jacob's time, and I hope you feel the same way. Just after we finished, Jacob was telling me how much part of his weekly fabric this podcast has been, and I really love that idea. I won't share his background how he listens, but I would love if you felt comfortable to share yours, why not drop that in the comments too. I'm not a beginner podcast. Now. The podcast by the time you listen to this episode will be four years old.

We've already had our 200th episode series. I'm not planning on giving up anytime soon, but this means that people will have started their A levels and finished them. People will have started their degrees and finished them. People will have applied for training courses and finished them all during the life cycle of this podcast. So that is really wonderful. If you are a super fan of the show or if you would like to support me to be able to carry on being a creator in this space for as long as possible, why not consider becoming a paid subscriber, which you can do for just a couple of pounds a month where you get exclusive behind the scenes content and footage and you get insider reflections from me. You can do that by joining my YouTube channel as a member or by joining on Apple where you can get a three day free trial or directly through Captivate Who hosts my podcast.

You can get a free trial there as well. Thank you for being here. I love doing this. I love creating this content. And you might be here because you're an aspiring psychologist or you might be here just because you are interested in people and human stories. Maybe for this episode, you are here because you yourself have had some experience in the care system. You are care experienced, or maybe you are supporting someone who is care experienced or want to understand them and their position and situation better. Whoever you are, wherever you're watching or listening, you are so welcome.

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