This is part one of a two-part series on the petition created by the Harvard Law School's Animal Law Clinic on behalf of wildlife animal advocates seeking to eliminate anticoagulant rodenticides in Massachusetts. Not only are these poisons a cruel way to kill rodents, the victims of these devices extend to wildlife and even species that are protected.

Our guests will discuss how they have come together in this fight, the importance of education of the public on this issue, and what we can do together to promote species conservation and welfare. They will also share their personal experiences as they are first hand witnesses of the injuries suffered by eagles, hawks, owls, and other wildlife.

Part I guests are:

Lla Anderson, law student at the Harvard Law School

Laura Kiesel, founder of Save Arlington Wildlife

Part II guests are:

Marci Cemenska founder of Save Lexington Wildlife

James Joyce II, founder of Friends of Horn Pond

Mentioned in this episode:

Keep it Humane Podcast Network

The Animal Welfare Junction is part of the Keep It Humane Podcast Network. Visit keepithumane.com/podcastnetwork to find us and our amazing animal welfare podcast partners.

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Use keyword keepithumane at checkout at livetrap.com

Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction.

2

This is your host, Dr.

3

G and our music is written

and produced by Mike Sullivan.

4

This episode is actually divided into

two parts, parts one and part two.

5

The title of this episode

is Stop Poisoning Our Birds.

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Massachusetts advocates fighting

against anticoagulant rodenticides.

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So I was scrolling through LinkedIn and

I saw this article on this petition

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that was created by Harvard Law School

asking the state of Massachusetts to

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basically stop placing rodenticides.

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And the main reason for it was the

damage to the environment, but in

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particular the damage to the birds,

how these rodenticides are actually

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causing damage to, to the birds.

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And some of these birds are birds that

are on the endangered species list.

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Speak about this issue, I

have four amazing guests.

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For part one, our guests are going

to be Lla Anderson, who is a student

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at the Harvard law school and Laura

Kiesel from Save Arlington Wildlife.

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On part two of this episode is

going to be Marci Cemenska from

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Save Lexington Wildlife and James

Joyce II from Friends of Horn Pond.

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Our first guest is going to be Lla

Anderson, who is a candidate at Harvard

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Law School and Harvard Divinity School.

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Welcome to the show, Lla.

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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DrG: Can you give us a little bit

of information on your background,

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kind of where you started and

what led you to law school?

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, so I'm from Florida.

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Grew up in Florida.

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We just have very unique nature,

wildlife, animals, you know,

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alligators and, and the like.

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And so growing up in Florida, I

was able to just be around wildlife

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and that really played a role in

cultivating this love for nature for me.

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I wanted to be a veterinarian

when I was a kid.

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Um, I truly was convinced

that I would be Dr.

33

Doolittle.

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And, um, I also loved Eliza

Thornberry from The Wild Thornberries.

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So, definitely had a strong

connection with animals.

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I was vegetarian the first

five years of my life.

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Um, fast forward, I started getting

into, uh, learning more about

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factory farming and slaughterhouses

when I was in middle school.

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So, I would watch all kinds of

videos and documentaries on it.

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And that was definitely something that,

I was interested in, but it sort of

41

kind of stayed in the background and

I ended up, you know, being, looking

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into other things in terms of career

paths, um, like theater and music

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and stuff like that, entertainment.

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And then that all changed, uh,

sophomore year of undergrad.

45

I interned in D.

46

C.

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and I saw just, How and before this

had no interest in being a lawyer.

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It was kind of in the back of my head, but

I just I didn't know too much about it and

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I felt like lawyers seem to be just very,

you know, self serious and and type a.

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And that, that, that, that's true, but

there's also way more to it than that

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in so many different personalities.

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Um, but yeah, I interned in DC,

saw how much lawyers knew, and

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I wanted to, to be one of them.

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And so, um, started studying, and I,

um, um, found my way to law school,

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so applied to Harvard, um, ended up

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I was a vegan at that point.

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I became vegan in undergrad, um, and yeah.

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Initially, uh, I was vegan

for sustainability reasons.

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Animals was a reason, but

it wasn't my number one.

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I was interested in sustainability

in undergrad, and that was

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my whole life in undergrad.

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So, um, it all changed, though, when

I joined the Animal Law Society.

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at Harvard and just learned more

and more about just our food systems

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and how animals are treated and

speciesism and how we regard ourselves

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and how we regard other animals.

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And that basically just sort of led me

back to who I was as a kid and how much

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I loved animals and just My, my core.

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And so after that, it

just changed everything.

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Um, and I just got into animal law

and I took the animal law course.

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Um, I started getting more involved in

the animal law society, uh, and I got

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involved in the animal law clinic, which

is how we got the rodenticide case.

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Um, but yeah, that's the long story,

but I've always loved animals.

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Took a little break from deciding

what I wanted to do, which in

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whether it involved animals and

then found it again in law school.

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DrG: That's great that you are able to

merge your loves, your love for animals

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and then your newfound love for law.

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, for

law, which is surprising,

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DrG: but yeah.

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Well, and congratulations on being at

Harvard Law School because, you know,

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whenever we think about the top law

schools in the country, Harvard is always

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one of the things that, you know, the

colleges that most everybody will know.

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So congratulations on, on doing that.

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Thank you.

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So tell us about this law clinic.

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What is, what is a law clinic?

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How does that work?

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Lla Anderson: So basically a law

clinic is very similar to a non

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profit, pretty much is a non profit.

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So what we do is we have clients

and um, law students are able,

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they're given the opportunity

to basically do real world work.

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Um, it's, it's sort of like an

experiential learning credit in

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college and in other, in other

opportunities, very much like a.

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A lab, for instance, where you're able

to learn apply what you learn in class in

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real life and act as a student attorney.

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And so basically, yeah, you,

you get to be around and get

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to learn more about real cases.

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You get to help real people and clients.

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You do research writing.

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Your work could entail interviews in

some clinics, you could go to court.

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Um, yeah, so it sort of runs

the gamut, but basically each

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clinic has its own sort of focus.

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You can have an environmental

law clinic, you can have a public

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defense clinic, and of course you

can have an animal law clinic.

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So that's pretty much what a clinic is.

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DrG: So I imagine, I mean, this is,

this is great for the individuals that

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are seeking this kind of help, but then

it's great for you guys as students.

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for being able to get experience prior

to graduating and going into practice?

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Lla Anderson: Definitely.

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You don't have to pay out of the wazoo

for, in terms of the clients, for help.

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And, um, the students are

able to get really as much

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experience as they would like.

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And, you know, there

is a difference in law.

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Um, you know, when you, when you're taking

your 1L law courses, pretty much that sort

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of dynamic where you're not doing clinic

work is, it leans more towards academia.

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It's different.

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theory.

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Um, but then in your second and third

years, um, at law school, when you're able

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to take clinics, then now you're looking

at law from the standpoint of an actual

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practicing attorney and what exactly

the day to day looks like, as opposed

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to being in the classroom and studying

and having the whole graduate school,

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um, environment, um, being the, the main

point of your law school experience.

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DrG: So this case that we're going

to be talking about is basically

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about the use of rodenticides

and how they are damaging to the

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environment, not only to the animals.

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Yeah.

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So.

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, can you give us a little bit

of background on this case?

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Lla Anderson: Yeah.

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Um, so this case, so there are a

few things to note in the case.

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Um, pretty much you had, we have, uh,

our clients were rehabilitators and, um,

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advocates, um, in different Massachusetts

areas, but specifically, um, we're

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dealing with a few from Arlington.

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And so basically the issue

is bald eagles are dying.

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Okay.

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Bald eagles, which are protected

species in this country, um, protected

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also, well, first of all, our national

symbol in the United States, um, and,

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you know, protected also, of course,

in Massachusetts under the Endangered

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Species Act, and they were dying.

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And, um, so you had a lot of advocates

and rehabilitators who were concerned

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about these animals just one day

just getting sick and, you know, very

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rapidly, um, developing very anemic

like conditions, um, bruising, bleeding,

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um, animals that they've observed

for years who are now acting very

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differently and who are very clearly ill.

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Um, dying.

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And so the rehabilitators also, more

than just the bald eagles, they've

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seen red tailed hawks, owls dying.

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So you have, you had individuals seeing

this and wanting to do something about

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it and trying and wanting to know, you

know, what was going on and all of the.

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The necropsy reports came back that

all of these animals, um, most, if not

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all, um, I will get there in terms of

there was a study that, um, a recent

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study where 100 percent of the birds

that were sick that were tested did

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have rodenticides, anticoagulant

rodenticides in their systems.

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But, um, In terms of the animals

that were dying, as I'm talking

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about, most of them were poisoned

with anticoagulant rodenticides when

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the necropsy or autopsy came back.

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And the anticoagulant rodenticides

off the charts in terms of the amount

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of poisons that were in their bodies.

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So these groups of people, they, they, you

know, very much on the ground, um, whether

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they're photographers, rehabilitators.

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Um, conservationists, and they were

trying to push for, um, the state of

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Massachusetts to do something about this.

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And so that is basically

how we got the case.

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So they ended up, you know, um, find,

you know, uh, looking up the Harvard

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Animal Law Clinic, saw the work that

we did, and brought this case to us.

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DrG: So the, the main thing

about it is about the fact how

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it's, uh, killing the, the birds.

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And I did see that study about the, I

think it was the red tailed hawks, all

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of the ones that they found, every single

one had evidence of rodenticide poisoning.

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So the, the issue is really from

the Massachusetts department

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of natural resources, right?

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That they are, uh, in charge.

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of determining the, the types of pest

controls that are, that are used?

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Lla Anderson: Yeah, the Massachusetts,

it's the department, you're close, the

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Department of Agricultural Resources.

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And they are in charge of,

determining whether this pesticide

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is a threat to the environment.

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.

DrG: So from what I was hearing, it says that they have, they do not meet the

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standards because they cause unreasonable

adverse effects to the environment.

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Lla Anderson: They do.

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What

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DrG: does that mean?

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What is the meaning of that?

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Lla Anderson: so in the law, this, this

term reasonability, it's everywhere.

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Um, yeah, it dictates, you know,

what is permissible and what isn't.

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Um, and so reasonability just means, is,

the effects of this rodenticide is it

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so harmful or are its effects such that

it's no longer reasonable to, you know,

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keep, uh, considering this rodenticide,

um, or this poison or this chemical,

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this substance, whatever, uh, whatever

have you as something that should be

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the standard or something that should

be, um, that should proliferate in

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our society as much as it has been.

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So basically, the reasonable standard

is just sort of like within means.

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And so, reasonability, if we're talking

about the environment, one could say

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a reasonable standard, an example of

something being reasonable, though this

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is questionable, is, um, basically,

you know, pollution from cars.

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Is it reasonable, um, the amount of

pollution that can come from a car?

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Um, And I think that people, for the

most part, would agree, okay, if a,

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you know, car that's putting down the

street doesn't pollute an insane amount,

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basically, if a car didn't pollute as

much as an 18 wheeler, then, you know,

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It's reasonable, whatever it's polluting.

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Um, but then, of course, if a cat,

if a car was polluting as much

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as an 18 wheeler, then I think

one would say that that is an

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unreasonable amount of pollution.

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And so the same thing sort of applies to

the reasonability of, whether the adverse

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effects are reasonable or unreasonable.

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And when you see the ecological

devastation and the just detrimental.

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impact that rodenticides or

anticoagulant rodenticides

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are having in our environment.

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It is very clear that, um,

it is unreasonable and it's

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having an unreasonable adverse

effect on our environment.

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DrG: As a veterinarian, uh, I worked in

emergency for many years and we would

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see dogs and cats that would come in,

you know, poisoned from this because

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unfortunately it is something that a

lot of people purchase for use in their

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homes and a lot of individuals don't

even know the dangers of it, right?

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They think, well, it's just, mouse

killer or, you know, rat poison,

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and they don't understand that

it's going to hurt their animals.

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And not only from the animals

ingesting it directly, but also

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from ingesting the, the mice or the

rats that, that have gotten in it.

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And it's such a horrible and

prolonged, cruel death, right?

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It

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Lla Anderson: is.

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It is.

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And you have, you have the primary

consumers and the secondary consumers.

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The primary consumers are the rodents.

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The secondary consumers are the

coyotes, the raccoons, the bald

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eagles, the red tailed hawks,

the owls, so on and so forth.

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And so people don't, people don't, I

mean, the thing is, it's intentional

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that people are not told how detrimental

these rodenticides are and how they're

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much worse than your typical rodenticide.

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Because the anticoagulant

nature of the rodenticide means

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that basically any animal that

consumes it, their blood clots.

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And so for the purpose of giving it to

rodents, it's a very cruel way to die.

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So these anticoagulant rodenticides

are sort of placed in these black

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boxes around, these rodents eat them.

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Well, rodents are so intelligent

that with normal poisons, if the

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rodent eats it and then immediately

dies, other rodents Will steer clear.

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They will not go.

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They will know exactly what it looks like.

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Um, and so they will not go

near whatever they presume or

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rightfully assumed to be poison.

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Well, anticoagulant

rodenticides are different.

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They're way more, um, uh, nefarious,

I would say, in terms of the effect

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on the animal, um, in the sense that

these rodenticides take a week, up to

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a week, to set in and for them to die.

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So they'll eat an anticoagulant

rodenticide, a secondary

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anticoagulant rodenticide.

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Uh, and they won't know.

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You know, a couple of days later,

they're still eating their fine.

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They don't, they don't know

that that is what poisoned them.

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So they're slowly being poisoned

and they could end up eating

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more and more and more of it.

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And then one day they're ways away

from where they consume that poison

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and they die and they don't know how,

or, or they don't know, you know,

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when they were poisoned, so yeah,

that's how they work in the system.

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DrG: So in the petition, basically, what

is it that you're asking for them to do?

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Lla Anderson: Well, we're

asking for two things.

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So one of the petitions that were

worked on by a couple of other

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classmates was the MDAR petition.

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So this was a petition to

the Massachusetts Department

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of Agricultural Resources.

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And it was for the immediate

Suspension of registrations of

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anti coagulant rodenticides.

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Um, so anti coagulant rodenticides

can still be purchased, though.

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There are a couple a few restrictions.

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They don't make.

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They haven't made much of a difference

in terms of the pernicious effect

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on our environment in Massachusetts.

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So it's calling for the immediate

suspension of those rodenticides and

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it's calling on MDAR to enact that.

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So that's the first one.

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The second one is a petition to the

Secretary of the Executive Office

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of Energy and Environmental Affairs.

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And it is a call for her to investigate

the impact of rodenticides on species.

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That are protected by the

Massachusetts Endangered Species

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Act, such as the bald eagle.

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Um, and so we also had another ask,

which was for the secretary to ensure

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that the Massachusetts Department of

Agricultural Resources, um, was basically

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using all practicable means to, um,

Avoid damaging, uh, the protected

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species again, such as the bald eagle.

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We're so far since 2021, four bald

eagles have died in Massachusetts.

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DrG: I think this is interesting because

I know that as a veterinarian, they tell

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us that we have to be very careful with

how we dispose of cadavers after they're

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euthanized with euthanasia solution.

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Because if, for instance, we.

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You know, we discard of, uh, of an

animal inappropriately and an endangered

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species feeds off that animal and

dies, we can be responsible, we can

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be held liable for the termination

of a life of an endangered species.

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And it, it almost sounds like that's

the same issue that's happening here.

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However, the, the individuals

that are doing this are not

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being held responsible for it.

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Lla Anderson: Right.

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Exactly right.

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DrG: What do you expect

will come about from this?

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Lla Anderson: Hopefully.

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So, there are hopes, and then there

are, um, you know, a certain uncertain,

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well, there's an uncertainty.

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So far we haven't heard, we

haven't gotten a response yet.

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I would hope that, um, Uh, anti coagulant

rodenticides are reviewed by, um, the

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Secretary of the, uh, Executive Office

of Energy and Environmental Affairs, and

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that the Secretary does look at the new

report that the EPA released stating that

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anti coagulant rodenticides actually show,

um, a negative impact on the environment.

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So I would hope that.

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You know, that would occur.

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Um, I think, you know, honestly, it's,

it's, it's sort of a wait and see.

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I think that ultimately there are people,

you know, we have advocates, as you know,

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rehabilitators who, who aren't comfortable

with the wait and see approach.

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And so the good news is we did have a

state representative in Massachusetts who

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presented a bill to ban, um, anticoagulant

rodenticides so that's something, so

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I think that, you know, we're, we're

waiting and seeing, uh, we're waiting

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on the response, uh, but I am hopeful

because there are a lot of people,

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whether they're senior citizens, whether

they're middle aged, um, teenagers,

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um, college age, what have you who

are interested in making sure that this

312

problem, this problem is addressed.

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DrG: At least having, knowing that you

have the support or at least one state

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representative is really important, right?

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Because at least you know that you

have somebody up there that's looking

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out and that, um, is, is interested

in being a voice for these animals.

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Right, right.

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Lla Anderson: I also think it's

important to mention that these

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anticoagulant rogenticides are pernicious

and they Destroy our environment.

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Um, we mentioned it.

321

I touched on it.

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But to get more specific,

coyotes are being poisoned by

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anti coagulant rodenticides.

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And the reason why coyotes are

important is because coyotes

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determine the health of the ecosystem.

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They're right in the

middle of the food chain.

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So if you're noticing that coyotes

have mange, they're bruising, they're

328

emaciated, hemorrhaging, bleeding from the

insides, because that is how, that is the

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effect of these secondary anticoagulant

rodenticides on these animals bodies.

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So these animals often

choke on their own blood.

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Um, there was one owl in, in

Boston, in the Faneuil Hall, and

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he was found by some, um, some

citizens, and luckily he was because

333

if not, he would have soon died.

334

He was showing signs of hemorrhaging.

335

He was blind.

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He still is blind now as a result of

the poisons, but he is healthy now.

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And so basically I'm saying that to

say, this is destroying our environment.

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It's destroying the food chain.

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Um, and that affects everything,

so we really do have to make sure

340

that we see this for what it is,

which is, you know, an emergency.

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Um, I, I also want to add that this

has an effect on the rehabilitators as

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well, who are dealing with, you know,

The bleeding, the blood, um, the loss

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of motivation sometimes, um, day in

and day out because they continue to

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see these animals poisoned and bleeding

and there's nothing they can do there.

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Well, they're trying to do their

best, but right now they're very

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limited as to what they can do.

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And so, you know, we have to make sure

that this is addressed because it's.

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It's really detrimental and it

affects our environment physically.

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It also affects the mental

health of individuals, um,

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who work hands on with this.

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And it's just unnecessary.

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There are so many other options

to, to addressing the, uh, any sort

353

of rodent issue that may occur.

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And the one last thing I'll say

is, um, uh, Flacco the Owl and the

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Central Park Owl just passed away.

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He passed away because of a window strike.

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So if you don't know about Flacco

the Owl, Flacco the Owl, um,

358

is, was a, was a captive owl.

359

who escaped captivity and basically

would fly around Central Park, and he

360

was just a spectacle in New York City.

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People loved him.

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People got out of bed

every day to see him.

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Birdwatchers were excited to

see him, and he represented so

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much to people in New York City.

365

Um, he was sort of like a,

the mascot of Central Park.

366

That's how he was described.

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Oflaco was, you know, free for about

a year and a year and a half until

368

he died suddenly and he died by

a window strike in New York City.

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He died from a window strike.

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Well, after a necropsy was conducted,

you can guess what happened.

371

There were anticoagulant

rodenticides in Flacco's body.

372

And so rodenticides

also affect the vision.

373

Of an animal, the vision of a

bird, and they affect the way that

374

they perceive objects, whether

they're close, not close, etc.

375

And so that was the, that, that

is the reason why Flaco died,

376

you know, anticoagulant or

denticides and their proliferation.

377

And so, um, Yeah, it's just that what

I'll say is this is an issue that's

378

so important, and I would even go

so far as to say that anticoagulant

379

rodenticides are our generation's DDT.

380

And we saw how DDT decimated bald

eagle populations before it was banned.

381

And before we could start conserving

and making sure that these populations

382

were able to flourish again.

383

And we just got to the point now

where these populations are coming

384

back and now, with anticoagulant or

denticides, they are threatened again.

385

DrG: We talk about, you know,

saying devil's advocate.

386

Well, how are we supposed to get rid of

the mice and the, and the rats and stuff.

387

But then also we don't think about the

fact that if we're killing the raptors,

388

if we're killing the animals that are

supposed to eliminate these to eliminate,

389

Lla Anderson: exactly

390

DrG: like we are just shooting ourselves

in the foot, like what do you think is

391

going to happen if we eliminate all these

eagles and the coyotes and stuff like we,

392

we take them out of the, out of the cycle.

393

And then all we're going

to do is cause the.

394

A shift.

395

In the, in the balance, we're

going to have an imbalance,

396

Lla Anderson: right?

397

Well, we'll have, right.

398

We'll have an even greater rat

problem, you know, and there are so

399

many ways to, there are so many ways

to alternatives, making sure that

400

your trash is away, making sure that

you plug up holes, you know, it's the

401

integrated pest management approach.

402

So there are so many other ways to.

403

To, you know, solve that problem as

opposed to just putting these really

404

horrible poisons that are killing

these beautiful animals that are

405

affecting the entire food chain, um,

decimating the entire food chain that

406

are affecting also kids and pets.

407

So, yeah, yeah.

408

And then also, of course, as you said,

again, if we keep doing this, we're just

409

going to continue exacerbating the problem

that's already happening right now.

410

DrG: Yeah, sometimes we cause our

own problems and then we blame.

411

The environment for it.

412

Yeah, the environment,

413

Lla Anderson: exactly.

414

DrG: But we're the one, we're the

ones doing it, so we need to take some

415

responsibility and take some proactive

action instead of, you know, trying

416

to, to find the, the easy way out.

417

Because the easy way out is just never it.

418

It is not always a band aid

solution, is not, is not

419

Lla Anderson: a solvent.

420

Yeah.

421

DrG: Excellent.

422

Well, thank you so much for

spending this time with us,

423

for sharing this information.

424

Best of luck in your studies.

425

Lla Anderson: Thank you.

426

Same to you.

427

DrG: Yeah, thank you for being here.

428

Lla Anderson: Thank you

so much for having me.

429

DrG: Our next guest is going

to be Laura Kiesel, who is the

430

founder of Save Arlington Wildlife.

431

Welcome to the junction, Laura.

432

Laura Kiesel: Thank you

for having me today.

433

DrG: So can you start by letting our

listeners know about your background?

434

Laura Kiesel: Sure.

435

Um, so my first degree is in, in

literature and journalism, but then I went

436

back to school to study wildlife biology.

437

Um, and I eventually completed my

master's degree in natural resources

438

management, um, and sciences.

439

And so.

440

I had worked a number of environmental

non profit jobs and also for some

441

municipal government agencies for their

like natural resources commission.

442

So I, I kind of come from

a wildlife biology and

443

environmental policy background.

444

DrG: The topic that we are discussing

here is the use of the rodenticides, and

445

then how they are affecting wildlife.

446

So how did you become involved with this?

447

Laura Kiesel: Sure.

448

So this, this issue literally

landed on my doorstep.

449

One day in 2015, I walked out of my

apartment into my parking lot and there

450

was a pest control professional putting,

um, 20 bait stations around the property.

451

And I was.

452

Somewhat familiar with these poisons.

453

I, again, at the time I was working

for, uh, or I just completed working.

454

I was, had recently been laid off, but

for several years I had been working for

455

a municipal agency, um, in Massachusetts

where they had an integrated pest

456

management plan where they had basically

all registered pesticides were not

457

allowed to be used on their public

lands, including these rodenticides.

458

So I had some familiarity through

my, my last, uh, job position.

459

And I also had been.

460

keeping track of the news.

461

Um, you know, I'm also an environmental

journalist and I had also seen

462

that California was doing some

more regulations of these poisons.

463

So I was very alarmed that one day

someone was just putting 20 bait stations

464

down and I was became increasingly

concerned because when I started to

465

ask him questions, he was evasive and

even told me things that weren't true.

466

First, he indicated that they were traps.

467

And I looked at the labels and I, I

clarified, but those are not traps, right?

468

These, this, that's poison

bait and the rodent can exit.

469

And, um, he begrudgingly,

you know, conceded my point.

470

And I, I said, so anything, any wild

animals that live in the area, we had

471

red tailed hawknest, uh, down the block.

472

I mentioned them.

473

I said, or even my pet cat could.

474

If a mouse gets in the unit that's eaten

this bait could get sick if he catches

475

and eats that mouse and he flat out

denied it, but I knew that that was true.

476

I even wound up calling the company

later and getting the EPA registration

477

code for that particular product

that they were using and looking up.

478

It's called like the material data

safety sheet to see the risks to

479

make sure I wasn't like overstating

it in my mind and I was not.

480

And then I started to lobby my landlords

to get rid of these poisons, which.

481

Basically, it was the beginning of a

multi year battle that I didn't get them

482

to give those poisons up until after I

moved out, and by that time I had saved

483

Arlington Wildlife going, but, uh, for

years we just had those poisons, and

484

I watched in a short amount of time,

you know, less than a year as these

485

bait stations, uh, basically went from,

like, a relative rarity in my town to,

486

like, proliferating to the point where

I would see them On every single block,

487

sometimes several to a dozen, especially

in the more dense parts of town.

488

So I started, I started to really worry.

489

I started to go to board of health

meetings to talk about it with them.

490

I started talking to my

state representative.

491

I went to all these kinds of friends

of this or that park meeting.

492

And I have to say for the first

several years, I was treated with, um.

493

A lot of cynicism and even a little

bit of disdain by some places.

494

Um, my state representative was very

supportive, but yeah, a lot of the town

495

officials, a lot of these, uh, friends

groups, they, I was yelled at, I was

496

told I was being a chicken little, um,

and I knew seeing the amount of poison

497

that was being used that at some point,

like the bill was going to come due.

498

Um, I knew that there must've

been deaths happening, but.

499

But that we weren't seeing them, but

they started to become more apparent

500

as more high profile wildlife cases,

um, started happening in my community.

501

DrG: So then, you know, we're, we're

now looking at the damage that these

502

rodenticides are doing to, to wildlife,

especially to endangered species.

503

Um, and then I saw the, the research

about the red tailed hawks that 100

504

percent of the ones that had been

seen that year, all of them had been

505

exposed to rodenticide poisoning.

506

How, how did all this, um, I say, drive

you to reach out to the law clinic?

507

Laura Kiesel: So, um, as I mentioned,

I've been doing this for nearly

508

a decade and, um, we're getting

increasing amounts of wildlife losses,

509

especially in the past several years.

510

Here in Arlington, uh, we had a bald eagle

nest They were our first bald eagles to

511

nest in Arlington's borders in 60 years

since DDT had wiped the species out

512

of the state and most of the country.

513

And then, that was in 2021 when

they established the nest and

514

within six months, uh, one of the

chicks, uh, when it was a fledgling,

515

died of rodenticide poisoning.

516

And then last year, in March 2023, MK,

who was the matriarch eagle, uh, the

517

female breeding bald eagle, who was much

beloved in, Not just like the Boston

518

metro area, but she was known throughout

the state in the New England region,

519

like people would travel from miles and

miles away to see her and photograph her.

520

She was very acclimated to

people, so she was comfortable

521

being in close proximity to them.

522

She died last year, uh, in end of February

523

Um, and I think that was sort of

like the last straw for a lot of

524

us, you know, I held a vigil and a

demonstration the day after she died.

525

Um, or was pronounced dead.

526

And I thought maybe a dozen or two

dozen people might show up and over 300

527

people showed up, um, even though there

was like less than 24 hours notice,

528

um, for this, it was a week night.

529

It was still pretty cold

cause it was very early March.

530

Um, but yeah, hundreds of people showed

up, um, at this time, you know, like

531

state legislation, even very tepid

532

bills that were proposed were kind

of stalling here in Arlington.

533

We were the first municipality to

pass a public lands ban on the second

534

generation anticoagulant rodenticides.

535

And we also had submitted what's

called a home rule petition to

536

the state to ban on private lands

because the state will not allow.

537

Um, municipalities to ban any

pesticide on private property

538

without special permission.

539

And most states in the country

have that kind of law on the books.

540

Actually, the pest control lobby a couple

of decades ago, fought really hard for

541

what's called preemption for states

to refuse municipalities the right to

542

restrict pesticides on private property.

543

So Arlington had already

submitted a homerule petition.

544

The city of Newton then

followed in our footsteps.

545

But it still was just not enough.

546

And so, after MK died, A concerned

group of citizens who have

547

been very active in this issue.

548

Several wildlife rehabbers

and other, um, people that you

549

saw listed on the petition.

550

We had a Zoom meeting, uh, with the

executive director of Raptors are

551

the solution, or rats, and they're

based in California and they have

552

a, they were successful in getting

a, getting a moratorium on SGARs

553

in most sectors in the states.

554

So we asked her for some ideas or or like

what some of the things that she did.

555

And she basically had

some pro bono legal help.

556

And so she really urged us to

look into like legal avenues.

557

And she did mention you might want

to check out some of the student law

558

clinics because she had gotten help,

I think, from Stanford Law Clinic for

559

their from their environmental clinic.

560

So and looking around.

561

Uh, Harvard has some law clinics,

uh, there's an environmental

562

clinic and the animal law clinic.

563

And so we did some queries, uh, the

environmental clinic did not respond,

564

but the animal law clinic did.

565

And then, um, basically, they spent

the year researching this issue in

566

depth before making a decision of

what legal avenues were available to

567

us, um, to take action on this issue.

568

DrG: Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned, it

just kind of hits both sides, right?

569

Because we're concerned about the effect

on the environment in general, but then

570

we're also concerned about the damage that

it's causing on these animals and just the

571

torturous death that they undergo, right?

572

It's not like they get into

this poison and they just die.

573

Right.

574

They get into this poison and

they bleed to death and it is a

575

very prolonged and painful death.

576

Laura Kiesel: Yes, it basically stops

their blood from being able to clot and

577

even something as small as like a sneeze

or a cough or one poor owl recently,

578

uh, bled to death after just plucking,

you know, when, when female owls or

579

birds of prey are about to lay eggs or

have babies, they'll pluck their belly

580

feathers out to make what's called a brood

patch so they can insulate their chicks.

581

And just from plucking out her

feathers, her brood patch, it's

582

called just, uh, Like hemorrhaged.

583

So just these small little incidents

can cause like these massive, um,

584

internal and external hemorrhaging

where they can't stop bleeding.

585

And yes, very painful, very torturous.

586

It can take days or weeks for them to die.

587

So it's also a welfare concern, in

addition to being a conservation concern.

588

And it's not just wildlife

that are vulnerable, um,

589

pets like pet cats and dogs.

590

are also vulnerable and there

have been a number of deaths.

591

Um, and even Children are vulnerable.

592

These, uh, the second generation anti

coagulants used to be available on store

593

shelves and brick and mortar stores,

but they, uh, were banned from store

594

shelves because young Children by the

thousands were getting into these poisons.

595

Um, they weren't at that time,

kept in bait stations and they were

596

getting very sick in a couple of them.

597

I think even died, and so it

also is public health concerns

598

for people, especially Children.

599

DrG: How bad is the rodent problem in

Massachusetts that they're, they're

600

going through these, um, steps of, you

know, laying so much poison around.

601

Laura Kiesel: So, you know, as

with all the major metro areas like

602

New York city and Philadelphia, I

know that we're getting increasing

603

rates of rodent sightings.

604

So I'm a little skeptical because

I know to some degree that, you

605

know, we're, we've been in a

606

And I know that a lot of construction

can, you know, interfere with rat

607

burrows and make them more active.

608

So I wonder how much of it is

that we have more rats and mice.

609

I'm sure we do have some

because climate change is also

610

a problem and warming weather.

611

They're having they're

having babies year round.

612

They're having larger litters.

613

So I'm sure there have been some

population increases from climate change,

614

but also with the construction boom.

615

I do think some of it just might be.

616

We're seeing more of them because they're

their burrows are getting inter, uh,

617

Interrupted and they're on the move more.

618

And the same thing with COVID when the

COVID pandemic happened and a lot of

619

the restaurants shut down, uh, some

of them might've migrated into more

620

residential areas or because more people

were working from home telecommuting.

621

There's a theory that it's just when

people started noticing, I mean, people

622

started noticing a lot more of their

outdoor and, you know, nature experiences,

623

including, oh, wow, there's a rat.

624

Like I never noticed that before.

625

So that's.

626

That's part of it.

627

I actually do think that the rat

poison makes the, the problems

628

worse for rodent populations.

629

Uh, as I mentioned, I'm an

environmental journalist.

630

I've been researching this and I've

reported a number of articles on this.

631

And I remember when I did my 2021 feature

investigative feature, I searched for

632

weeks high and low for like a peer

review article that could, uh, You

633

know, talk about the efficacy of these

poisons in reducing rodent populations.

634

And I couldn't find a single study.

635

Um, it was really interesting.

636

I would find studies that

would call them very effective.

637

And then in the footnote, I would

look up the study they referred to,

638

and it would just say the same thing.

639

But it wouldn't actually have

any kind of research behind it.

640

So I do think a lot of it is scant.

641

And in my experience, we have

just continued to have more

642

rodent problems, despite having

these poisons be ubiquitous.

643

Which indicates to me that either

these poisons are not effective or

644

they're a contributing factor, which

would make sense because if we're

645

killing off their predators, like the

predators are effective at usually

646

like suppressing these populations.

647

And so we're actually might be inflating

these populations by killing off

648

their natural predators in the area.

649

DrG: Yeah, that's one of the things that

I was thinking about is that, as you

650

mentioned, just, That is, that is nature's

way of maintaining a balance, right?

651

We have this, this whole chain,

uh, this whole food chain.

652

And if we are doing things that are

going to affect those animals higher

653

in the food chain that are tasked

with eliminating these animals that

654

we consider pests, then all we're

doing is worsening our own problem.

655

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, that was actually

what I studied in school, like was

656

predator prey population dynamics.

657

And I looked more at mammals, like

wolves and stuff on deer, but I can't

658

help but think it's sort of like a

trophic cascade that we're, we're

659

inciting when we get rid of these apex

predators like hawks and owls that

660

were of course going to be ironically

making the rodent population worse.

661

And they can't rebound

like the rodents can.

662

Rodents, you know, they breed so

prolifically, they have such like

663

so many, they can have thousands,

a single pair of rats can have

664

like thousands of babies a year.

665

They can outbreed the poisons and they

can build biological immunity to these

666

poisons in a relatively quick amount

of time because they breed so rapidly

667

and they have such short lifespans.

668

But a bird of prey, which can live

for decades and they have short, they

669

only have a couple of babies a year.

670

If you like, kill off those

animals, they can't rebound.

671

So now there's like this mismatch

where the rodents outbreed the

672

poison, but now you've annihilated

the predators in the area because

673

they cannot overcome the impacts of

these poisons like the rodents can.

674

DrG: So what is it that your group is

hoping that happens from these petitions?

675

Laura Kiesel: I mean, I, ideally, I

am hoping that, um, the Massachusetts

676

Department of Agricultural Resources

and the Department of Energy will, uh,

677

seriously review the science and the

case studies that are offered in them

678

and, um, Make a decision that is, um,

that corresponds with that, because right

679

now we're not, you know, MDAR, the M.

680

A.

681

Department of Agricultural

Resources, they're supposed to

682

consider the environmental impacts

of any pesticides they allow to

683

be used, um, the pest companies to

use in the state of Massachusetts.

684

And that doesn't really

seem to be happening.

685

Um, and it, it, it seems like they're

rubber stamping this without looking at

686

it because if they would work to look very

closely, they would see these impacts.

687

Now we already have the bald eagle

case studies of several bald eagles

688

necropsy by the state, and there's

still a MESA listed species.

689

They're still on under the state

endangered species act, but we

690

had to do a lot of our own science

too, because the state is not other

691

than those MESA listed species.

692

The state is not testing animals.

693

So a lot of the wildlife rehabbers on

their own dime and or with help from

694

groups like Save Arlington Wildlife,

crowdfunding from like just rape, you

695

know, lay citizens who want to help.

696

We've been funding these necropsies and

basically every animal that has been

697

necropsied has shown SGARs exposure and

almost all but one that I know of, the,

698

the rates of SGARs exposure are extremely

high, um, and usually considered lethal.

699

So, you know, Cape and wildlife in

particular, they've done an enormous

700

amount of testing and data keeping

to show that this is a real problem.

701

Aaron Hutchings.

702

told me that at this point, rodenticide

poisoning, I think is their number one

703

reason for intake for the birds of prey.

704

They get, um, surpassing vehicle strikes

and a lot of their vehicle strikes.

705

They probably do have lower levels of

poisoning that make them susceptible

706

to those, those collisions.

707

But, um, yeah, and she's seen a real

uptick in the past seven years or so,

708

which have Like that's around the time

that the construction boom started and

709

it's also around the time the EPA pulled

these from store shelves and has companies

710

had more of a monopoly and I, in my

experience, at least here in Boston.

711

That's when it really became something

that started to on every street like

712

you started noticing them popping up.

713

DrG: One of the things that that I

discussed with Ella Anderson from

714

Harvard Law School was about an owl and.

715

An owl in New York that died

after a window strike and then

716

on the necropsy, they did find

out that there were anticoagulant

717

rodenticides and these, these poisons

can cause difficulty in vision.

718

So it can be, you know, with the

vehicle strikes, as you mentioned,

719

they, yeah, the, the car may be the

cause of death, but the mechanism

720

of death may be the anticoagulant

rodenticide that caused it to be blind

721

and not be able to evade the vehicle.

722

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, and, um, I think

you're talking about Flacco, the, the

723

owl, the, like, the celebrity owl that

everyone, you know, like, the New York

724

Times loved him, he was an escapee

from the Central Park Zoo, he was

725

a Eurasian eagle owl, so not native

to New York City, and I think that

726

sort of enthralled people about him.

727

Um, and what the media hasn't really

talked about, though, is the poison,

728

the main anticoagulant found in his

system, bromodiolone, the Parks Division

729

of New York City uses that at Central

Park and their other part parks in in

730

the New York City network, Um, and I

had a conversation with them at the end

731

of last fall, like November ish, asking

them why they were using bromodylone.

732

And they told me that it

was a low toxic poison.

733

And that's not true.

734

I said, where did you

get that information?

735

Because the EPA and I even shared

with them the EPA classification.

736

I was like, it's considered

moderately toxic to birds

737

and highly toxic to mammals.

738

And they told they eventually after

weeks told me it was their pest control

739

contractor that told them that and it's

concerning to me that so many agencies

740

are taking the word of the very industry

that has a conflict, you know, a vested

741

conflict of interest in keeping the

profits running by using this product.

742

So I don't understand why they're being

listened to at their word other than the

743

science that exists about these poisons.

744

DrG: Well, and to say that it's

low toxicity, I mean, toxicity

745

is in the dosing, right?

746

Like, a lot of poisons are not toxic

until you get to a certain level.

747

So let's say that, yeah, it's In low

doses is not toxic, but what is it

748

to say that these animals are not

going to ingest high quantities given

749

the amount that is being spread?

750

Laura Kiesel: Yes.

751

And I interviewed, um, uh, her

name was Cynthia Hopp Dennis.

752

She's a veterinarian with Cornell

and she's done studies on SGARs

753

exposure rates in New York, more like

in the Ithaca region near Cornell.

754

But she, she said the same thing you did.

755

And she mentioned, you know, like, it

doesn't even really matter what some

756

of the studies like lab studies are

showing because Those are very controlled

757

and much smaller doses than what these

animals are getting in the wild, but

758

also synergistically because they're

not just getting the bromodilone.

759

They're getting the other anticoagulants

and other poisons in their systems too.

760

So those are all compounding on, you know,

having a compounding impact on the animal.

761

And I know it, uh, New England Wildlife

Center mentioned that one of the

762

reasons they think that they're another

rehab clinic that they are having a

763

harder time rehabbing their animals

is because usually those animals

764

have several of the anticoagulants.

765

In their system, and it's they're

synergistically working together to

766

suppress the clotting at such an increased

rate than they used to see when it

767

was maybe just one poison being used.

768

DrG: The reading at the

Massachusetts pesticide control act.

769

It says that it cannot cause unreasonable

adverse effects on the environment and

770

is very clear that these rodenticides

are damaging the environment.

771

Yes.

772

And then the other concern as far, like

you mentioned, I mean, it's just these

773

are, these are endangered species, right?

774

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, it's, you know,

a lot of people ask, like, doesn't

775

the Migratory Bird Treaty Act and

the Bald and Golden Eagle Protection

776

Acts, they all have some language in

there about not poisoning the animals.

777

Um, but it's just, unfortunately,

there's not a lot of, um, options for

778

citizens to bring suits under those acts.

779

And also, they They define the poisoning

in a way where it's usually direct,

780

and if it's an incidental poisoning,

there's like a lot more red tape to prove

781

it, but as you mentioned, there's all

these rules about, you know, rehabbers

782

mentioned how they can't even release

the wildlife that they've treated with

783

antibiotics till a certain amount of

time goes by, so that the antibiotics

784

don't enter like the food web, you know,

you can't, under the MBTA, You can't own

785

like eagle feathers or bird feathers,

even if you just find them in nature

786

because of like concerns of conservation.

787

So I just find it, you know, kind

of a contradiction that that those

788

are so heavily regulated, but then

these poisons are just being put out.

789

Just without almost pretty much

indiscriminately by the pest control

790

companies and, you know, even though

they're supposed to, were supposed

791

to be used as a last ditch, um,

effort to control rodents when other

792

things failed, or like, they're just

being put down as preventatives.

793

They're being put down whether or not

there are rodents present and they just

794

leave them down, um, indefinitely, which

is against the EPA's own recommendations

795

for how they should be applied.

796

DrG: I think that, you know, like, like

with most things related to animals,

797

the environment, everything, it's about

education, and I don't think that the

798

public is truly, you know, aware of the

damage that these things are causing,

799

you know, they see the rat problem, so

they're, of course, going to take to

800

the turn to the government and turn to

officials and say, you got to take care

801

of these, of these rats, these rodents,

and, um, They're, you know, this is the

802

answer that they're giving and they're

going to be okay with it, but I think

803

that, you know, through you guys, so

these advocacy efforts, if we can get the

804

public in general to understand the damage

that it's happening and not only how it's

805

affecting wildlife, but how it can affect

themselves, their family, their animals,

806

then perhaps there's going to be a bigger

outcry for these, for these rodenticides

807

to be taken off the, be taken off use.

808

Laura Kiesel: I, yeah, I agree.

809

And I, I started a new nonprofit just

like a couple of months ago called like,

810

it's a mouthful, Save Massachusetts

Wildlife Education Fund, and I'm just

811

wanting to, that whole nonprofit is

existing for me to try to come up with

812

like video tutorials and other like

education campaigns to really like.

813

Get them marketed out to the

mainstream because I feel like so

814

much of it is people just still

don't understand some of the basics.

815

Like what those black boxes are, you

know a surprising amount of people

816

still sometimes don't get what secondary

poisoning is They're like, how did

817

the wildlife get into the boxes?

818

And you know, sometimes you have to you

know Explain to them how like no, it's

819

the rodents themselves that are poisoning

that that are the poison product now

820

DrG: Yeah, they're, they're used quite

frequently and people don't, it's like

821

people don't realize what they do.

822

Right.

823

Like it's like a magic act, they

think that the mouse is going

824

to go in it and just disappear.

825

Yeah.

826

I understand that they're going in

there, they're getting poison and

827

then they're walking out of it.

828

They, you know, some people think that

they just get trapped in there, that

829

they eat it and they're trapped and they

die in there and that's not even it.

830

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, I've spoken to a lot

of people who are confused, and again,

831

some of the pest companies seem to

encourage that kind of ignorance, like,

832

like I mentioned my very first, you know,

conversation, he tried to kind of, he

833

called them traps, and I said, but the

animal, like, they leave, they leave.

834

Right.

835

Um, something I also wanted to

mention because I think that this is

836

a countrywide problem, but I do think

Massachusetts, when I speak to rehabbers,

837

to researchers on this issue, and I

tell them I'm in Massachusetts, they do

838

say things usually like Massachusetts

has an especially bad problem with the

839

poisoning, um, You probably have read

the Tufts Wildlife Clinic studies.

840

You already referred to the one about

the red tailed hawks, and when they

841

looked at other birds of prey, it was 96

percent, but recently I spoke to Project

842

Snowstorm, and they look at snowy owls,

and they, they've been, they released a

843

blog post a couple of weeks ago, um, or

at this point, it might be almost a month

844

ago, Uh, where they noted like 10 years

ago, when they, because they necropsy

845

dead snowy owls, they find they didn't

have find hardly any anticoagulant like

846

cases in the necropsies, but in just

like the past decade, it's become like

847

a ubiquitous problem with the samples.

848

And when I interviewed, um, one of

their representatives, he said that

849

Massachusetts overall had the highest

poisoning rates for snowy owls, both,

850

I think, in the ratio of snowy owls

and in the poisoning numbers, the

851

toxicity levels themselves found

in the liver of these AR poisons.

852

Um, and snowy owls, they're not

like a They're not listed in

853

Massachusetts, um, as an endangered

species or a threatened species.

854

I don't know why, maybe because

they're a migratory species here,

855

but they're, they're in trouble.

856

Like they're red listed under the

IUCN, um, red list as threatened.

857

And I know for the U S fish and

wildlife service does have them a

858

species of conservation concern.

859

They're under serious threats

with climate change because

860

they're from Arctic ecosystems.

861

So when they migrate to like the

continental North, you know, us.

862

usually like the Northeast

or Midwest region.

863

And if they're getting poisoned by

these rat poisons, you know, that

864

could be a tipping point for them.

865

DrG: What can the public do to be

better advocates in this field?

866

Laura Kiesel: Sure.

867

Well, in addition to, you know, talking

to your landlords, if you feel like

868

you can do that safely, because I know

sometimes they can be retaliatory,

869

but, you know, advocating if you do

have it at your place of residence

870

to see if you can get them removed.

871

Or again, if you're a business owner,

not using them or talking to businesses

872

about not using these poisons and

trying to use other alternatives.

873

Here in Massachusetts

specific to our petition.

874

We're still waiting for a response before

I think we decide what our next steps are.

875

And you know, there probably will

be a call, um, some kind of call to

876

action depending on what the next steps

are, if they respond in the negative.

877

But we do have the Arlington and the city

of Newton has home rule petitions pending

878

in the state legislature right now to

ban these poisons on private property.

879

So even though those homerule petitions

are specific to those communities if,

880

if by some chance they passed, it would

establish a firm legal precedent for

881

the prohibition of these chemicals.

882

And a lot of people don't realize

because these home rule petitions

883

are for Arlington and Newton,

they think, oh, I don't have to

884

call or talk to my state rep.

885

But I just, You know, I've been telling

people in Massachusetts, if you, you

886

know, please call and write your Senator

and your state rep and tell them, um,

887

that you want to see the, the home rule

petitions for Arlington and Newton past

888

the state, um, the state legislature and

make it into law for our communities,

889

because that will make it a lot easier

for other communities to do this, but also

890

if those passed, it would lend a

lot of leverage and momentum to the

891

legal petition we have with Harvard

because those would resonate with

892

like, um, the politicians on the

state level, and they would see that

893

there's a lot of public demand for

further regulation of these poisons.

894

I mean, if you're not in Massachusetts,

you could look at what we're doing here

895

and what states like California have done.

896

And you can explore legal avenues,

find a coalition of people to

897

work with here in Massachusetts.

898

We had to go community by

community because our state

899

legislature is a bit gridlocked.

900

So the reason we did a lot of like, after

I started save Arlington wildlife, a

901

lot of other communities started their

own respective save wildlife groups.

902

And right now they're about, I think

between a dozen and 20 across the

903

Commonwealth, um, and each one is

trying to do similar things that we did

904

here in Arlington, that is past public

lands bans, get a home rule petition

905

submitted to the state because the

more of that will increase pressure.

906

So maybe in,

907

if someone's in a state similar to us,

you could look at local level things

908

like that, getting a public lands

ban, um, getting, um, a home rule

909

petition, or if it's called something

else in your state, but similar to that

910

passed, um, looking at legal avenues,

um, working on things like that.

911

I do have on the Save

Arlington wildlife website.

912

I do have like an activist tool kit that

I authored that kind of just has like

913

a bullet by bullet instruction of what

we did here in Arlington when we were

914

getting started to eventually culminate

in the achievements we did that other

915

people are glad to borrow from and.

916

I think that's a good springboard

even even if you're not going

917

to try to pass municipal laws.

918

It just also has other ideas for

raising awareness and getting businesses

919

or residential properties to stop

using the poisons and there's also an

920

alternatives to road and decide page.

921

So I have a lot of resources on the

save Arlington wildlife dot org page.

922

DrG: Excellent.

923

Yeah, because that was going to be my

next question is, you know, we, we can't

924

just say, well, we have a problem with

this solution, but we're not going to

925

help with providing another solution.

926

So I wanted to know what were the,

what were the other recommendations as

927

far as solving the the rodent problem.

928

Laura Kiesel: Yeah, so I do have

an alternatives to rodenticide.

929

Raptors are the solution has a lot of

a lot of one pagers and good graphic,

930

you know, kind of infographic or

illustrations that I think is more

931

palatable sometimes for people to look at.

932

I mean, at the end of the day, the

best thing and it's hard, right?

933

Because human behavior is hard to change.

934

I think the number one way is to really

reduce rodent populations is better

935

waste management and sanitation, uh,

coupled with better exclusion, you

936

know, like, so making sure homes are

less porous so they can't get inside

937

the home because I think that's when

people really get upset is when they're

938

finding their way inside people's

homes, um, Those are the two big ones.

939

And I know, again, that's kind of

difficult for people because people

940

don't necessarily want to take down

their bird feeders, but bird feeders

941

can be a big attractant to rats, right?

942

Um, and if you do want to keep your

bird feeders, there are a number of

943

things you then really want to do

and be vigilant about, because you

944

will get rats, at least in my area,

if you have a bird feeder eventually.

945

And even if you don't use poison,

because I get these queries all the

946

time, where someone will say, like,

my neighbor uses Uh, bird feeders.

947

They don't use the poison.

948

I've tried to talk to them about it, but

they have rats and the rats are coming

949

in my yard, but they will say, but

there's two or three other neighbors,

950

now they've begun to use poison.

951

So even if the person with the bird feeder

doesn't use the poison, I try to explain

952

to them that probably if you get rats,

Your neighbors will start using poison.

953

So taking down bird feeders or

doing, like I said, a number of

954

mitigation options with that.

955

Um, you know, not even small, low hanging

fruit things like not taking your trash

956

to outdoor barrels or dumpsters until

basically it's almost time for pickup

957

would be a big thing.

958

When I lived in Alaska, it was actually

illegal to take your trash out until the

959

morning of pick up because of there was

a grizzly, you know, the grizzly bears

960

would come and you also couldn't have

a bird feeders either because it would

961

draw grizzly bears to the property and

could result in someone getting injured.

962

So, um, I almost wonder at one point

if we're going to have to start

963

thinking about this more at a mandated

way, but at the very least, I try to

964

educate people about those options.

965

And, you know, hiring somebody to do

exclusion or looking into do it yourself

966

place, finding like the holes in your

drywall and stuffing it with steel wool.

967

And then just other things like, um,

there's something called dry ice.

968

I don't know if you've heard of that,

like you can put those in outdoor

969

burrows and like as it like dissipates,

it's like carbon dioxide poisoning,

970

so it kind of puts them to sleep.

971

Um, so I, I, like lethal measures to

me are usually a last like You know

972

on the last option but I always tell

people that's probably one of the least

973

inhumane ways to get rid of them if

like you've tried other options and

974

and even old fashioned snap traps.

975

Um, though you do have to be really

like clever about what you bait them

976

with and where you put them and and

careful to have them either in a

977

bait box or in places where another

animal can't get caught in them.

978

DrG: Well, thank you so much for being

with us and for sharing your knowledge.

979

And thank you for everything

that you're doing.

980

Hopefully these petitions will,

will get, you know, some response.

981

And if not, I'm sure that you're

going to continue to battle

982

until, until something happens.

983

Laura Kiesel: We will.

984

Thank you very much.