Beth and Fr. Steve discuss the importance of conflict in our mission as Christians and explain how to engage in healthy conflict with our superiors, peers, and those we lead.

Show notes:

(00:38) Beth and Fr. Steve catch up with each other and debate whether or not it’s too early for Fall things--from pumpkin spice, to football, to pies, and even cider and donuts.

(09:33) Fr. Steve introduces the need for healthy conflict, explains the good that can be produced from it, and the dangers of poorly executed conflict/passivity. He states the importance of not being passive members of the Church so as to not “sell the Gospel short.”

(12:32) Beth and Fr. Steve reflect on the concept of conflict as a means to more fully share the gifts that Christ has given us. Fr. Steve speaks on unity vs. uniformity, identifying the beauty behind being united as a Church in our vast differences, gifts and unique talents.

(19:18) The question arises of how one is to have healthy conflict. Fr. Steve and Beth respond, establishing the need to acknowledge the good will of the other, approaching their thoughts and feelings with empathy, compassion and wisdom.

(23:30) Beth identifies a variable that affects how healthily we handle conflict: burnout. She notes that when we are overworked and exhausted, it’s considerably more difficult to be charitable to one another.

(25:55) Fr. Steve presents the question of how we are to have healthy conflict with three different groups of people: (1) our superiors, (2) our peers, and (3) individuals we are leading.

(26:36) They begin with the first group, superiors. Beth shares the tip that conflict with this group should always be done in a private, non-group setting, and Fr. Steve shares the conflict tips of knowing the superior’s temperament, being direct with them and charitable.

(30:25) Next, they address how to have healthy conflict with the second group: your peers. Beth asserts that directly going to the person you have conflict with is the best way to have healthy conflict and evade gossip. Fr. Steve adds that approaching our peers with “radical candor” can be a fruitful method in navigating healthy conflict and building solid bonds with others.

(36:54) Lastly, they discuss how to handle conflict in the third group: as a leader. Fr. Steve voices the importance of treating others under your authority with love and charity; Beth adds her method of ‘winning people over’ through increased trust and growth in friendship, along with practicing directness, humility and the willingness to make mistakes.

Fr Steve :

Welcome to another wonderful, awesome episode of Encounter Grow Witness podcast with our rock star host, Beth Spizarny, and with me, Fr Steve Pullis. We are so grateful you're joining us and listening to this great Archdiocese of Detroit Unleash the Gospel conversation we're having so that all of us, especially our lay ecclesial ministers, our mission direct teams can better know how to follow Jesus and help others follow him as well. And we're kind of on the cusp at the beginning of the fall season here, Beth, how are you doing?

Beth :

I'm doing fine. Yep. Kids are back to school. We're trying to get back into a rhythm and lots of things are happening all at once. Yeah, how about you?

Fr Steve :

That's great. Yeah. I'm you know, as our listeners know, I've transitioned from working full-time at the Chancery to now working full-time at Sacred Heart Major Seminary, and it's been a great joy. It's been a lot of fun to kind of getting to know the seminarians more and seeing the work here at at Sacred Heart seminary where we record this wonderful time. So yeah, it's kind of an exciting new beginning a year, learning a lot, figuring out how to do stuff and yeah. God has been so good to me this year. So I'm very happy with with what I'm doing now. And we're going to talk about conflict.

Beth :

It's true. We're probably going to have some arguments and some conflicts in this, in this podcast,

Fr Steve :

You are entitled to be wrong.

Beth :

As are you, and I won't even--I don't think you should be embarrassed about it. It's okay. We all make mistakes.

Fr Steve :

That's very kind and very generous of you. But we were talking about you know, kind of on the cusp of fall and fall stuff. Yeah.

Beth :

Fall things. Is it too soon or is it time, Fr Steve Pullis, for pumpkin spice? Is it too soon? Are you drinking your pumpkin spice lattes?

Fr Steve :

It is always too soon and too late for pumpkin spice. I don't think there is a right time for pumpkin spice. You know, I am a black coffee guy. I like--

Beth :

Really? Straight? Okay, very serious.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. Yeah. I think--I'm sure it takes back to like my mom drank cream in her coffee and my dad drank it black.

Beth :

Oh wow, you don't like cream as a man?

Fr Steve :

No, no, no, I think you can.

Beth :

Half of our listeners are devastated to learn this--they're not allowed??

Fr Steve :

Hey, Beth, Beth, I didn't say now allowed. I'm just saying in our family, that's the way I kind of adopted it and I started to like coffee black. So and pumpkin spice just has this--it's such a strong flavor. Aroma is too nice a word for it.

Beth :

It's really for the sophisticated palettes.

Fr Steve :

Odor? Stench? I believe stench is the right noun for it.

Beth :

You may have an immature palate, so maybe as you grow and age, you know, you'll come to appreciate pumpkin spice more.

Fr Steve :

I see your conflict style showing! No, but for you, is it too early for pumpkin spice?

Beth :

I don't think it's too soon. I think it's all right. I haven't had anything pumpkin spice, but I would welcome the opportunity if it presented itself, I would welcome it. What about football? Is it, is it too soon for football?

Fr Steve :

Yeah, maybe I'm the naysayer here. I think of football as a, as a fall sport. Right? That's what it is.

Beth :

But doesn't September kind of feel like fall?

Fr Steve :

You know, not when it like the first week labor day, week, and then the week after that, it was like 80 degrees out. So that--it just, it doesn't feel wrong, but it doesn't feel right.

Beth :

That's ridiculous! That's totally my list of questions. We should go and tell all the tailgaters, I'm sorry. You cannot be out here. It is too soon for tailgating and football.

Fr Steve :

See, I have a more kind of generous disposition.

Beth :

I'll allow it!

Fr Steve :

For me, it doesn't strike me as like the quintessential football-ness of it. What are your thoughts on it?

Beth :

I don't think it's too soon. I can feel in my house, all the excitement and the energy for it. And it absorbs a lot of attention. And it gives me a lot of free time to go see a girlfriend, go for a nice walk, read a book, do my schoolwork. And I'm not missed because there's a lot of attention being absorbed. People seem very excited about it.

Fr Steve :

What's the object or--of a, of that attention. Is it Michigan? Is it The Lions? Is it some--

Beth :

Well, my husband's from Pennsylvania. So he cheers for the Cleveland teams and Penn state. So unfortunately, all of his passion doesn't help me be culturally relevant at all. So I'm always telling him to try to help me. Cause I unfortunately don't care about football that much, which is hard, because I'm from Ann Arbor and you're really supposed to care.

Fr Steve :

Yeah, there's a school there, right?

Beth :

There is a great school there, but unfortunately I'm just not that interested. What about pies? Is it too soon for pies? Mr. Naysayer? Are we allowed to have pie?

Fr Steve :

On this score, It is never too early for pies. We were talking beforehand--

Beth :

Ah, differently we feel, it's too early for pies! Oh, it's too early. Yeah. You can't have pies, at least not until late October, November. You're not allowed.

Fr Steve :

Haven't you seen those old movies, like,

Beth :

About Thanksgiving?

Fr Steve :

About the pie sitting on the window sill in the summer and some way hobo or whatever, sneaks up and steals the pie from the window sill?

Beth :

No, I must have missed those.

Fr Steve :

It was an Oh Brother Where Art Thou. I know it was in that movie. You didn't see Oh Brother Where Art Thou?

Beth :

No, I'll add it to my list.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. Cohen brothers. You know Cohen brothers?

Beth :

Uhh, I don't know who that is. I'm sure I would, if I--

Fr Steve :

Yeah, they're the best movie makers--I guess they're called directors, right--out there.

Beth :

Okay. I'll add to my list, but you're not allowed to have pies. I'm sorry.

Fr Steve :

And that's a universal? That's not like, like, cause there's fruit pies and then there's more hearty pumpkin, and

Beth :

No, you can't. You shouldn't.

Fr Steve :

What about the little hostess pies?

Beth :

I don't really think those are pies. I'm fine with that. You're allowed. Our producer is relieved. He's going to run out and get one.

Fr Steve :

Is a pizza pie?

Beth :

A pizza, yea a pizza is always allowed. That's just fine. Yeah. Okay. How about cider and donuts?

Fr Steve :

I want to go back to the pies for just a moment--there's a great restaurant up in Mackinac city called Darrow's family restaurant that makes homemade pies, I think all year long. I've not been up there in the winter, but in the summer, I mean, they probably have 20 different kinds of pies. They make homemade, delicious. And to me that's a bit of a summer tradition going up north and getting, you know, fresh fish, fresh walleye at Darrow's. And,

Beth :

Do they make pairings for the fish and the pie? The best is the salmon with the strawberry rhubarb! Because there's--I don't think that's, I don't think you can make pairings like that.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. I don't know. And I don't think they have a bad pie, so I've not had bad fish there either. So I think it's just, you know, great food. It's just great and great. Like what version of great do you want? Anyway, so yeah,

Beth :

Well I'll be pleased to visit this lovely establishment in October or November.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. Alright. Pies in summer go together for me. Anyway. Cider and donuts.

Beth :

Cider donuts. I don't think it's too soon. I think that's--I think September it's a green light, in my opinion.

Fr Steve :

I think October, October, I'm an October cider and donuts guy. So do you have a preferential place you go to?

Beth :

I don't, there's a great place in Royal Oak people love Donut Cutter, they've got some great donuts. And there's a place out in Franklin that the kids have been to, but I haven't been out there yet, but they say it's excellent. Yeah. Yeah. And then Three Cedars Farm also excellent. Really lovely. That's in Novi, I think. Yeah. Northville. Yeah. Northville.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. So you do skew west side there from Ann Arbor.

Beth :

I do. Yeah, I do.

Fr Steve :

I think the quintessential--probably the largest--is Blake's up in Armada and that's not too far from my weekend assignment at up in Shelby. So I've, I've gone up there a few times.

Beth :

Already??

Fr Steve :

No, no, no. The last couple of years I've gone up there once, you know, so yeah. Delicious pies, apple pies, in October t0o.

Beth :

Well look at us disagreeing and mostly charitably. Can you tell us a little more about conflict and what value there might be in disagreeing well? Even though you're wrong about pies?

Fr Steve :

Hang on one more of these--you, you had mentioned electrifying blankets?

Beth :

They're not electrifying blankets. That would--you would be dead--just an electric blanket. Yeah. It's a lovely warm blanket and you plug it in and there's numbers. You can turn it all the way up. If you turn it up to 10, you'll probably fall asleep. Okay. It's great. Love it. It's not too soon.

Fr Steve :

What's the weather for an electric blanket?

Beth :

Any slight chill in the air, any slight chill in the air and you're allowed it's--you're allowed. Yep. Big fan.

Fr Steve :

Okay. I have never used an electric blanket, so I am a--

Beth :

Christmas ideas for our listeners.

Fr Steve :

There we go.

Beth :

Let's send them a hundred folks. Let's get them in, everyone send one.

Fr Steve :

All right. So all of that wonderful fall stuff out of the way, conflict. And we're going to talk about conflict because it's so needed in the church. And I think, you know, it, even when it doesn't happen, it happens. Right. So if we're trying to avoid it, it it rears its head in other ways. But I think it's important for us to talk a little bit about why it's okay to have conflict, why we shouldn't just kind of either give in to the loudest voice or just kind of take a vote and just move on. So it's talking about, you know, why conflict is important is because the content of what we do as disciples of Jesus is really important: the mission Christ is entrusted to his church. And it's funny to think about like the church, you know, the, the hierarchical church and the church that the Pope and the bishops have, but the church has also us, right? We're not just passive members of the church, especially, you know, thinking about the laity. They're not just passive members of the church, the mission entrusted to them, to me as a priest, to us as the archdiocese is really important. And so if we're not willing to kind of talk about the most important things and even talk about that in a way that makes each other uncomfortable, pushes each other a little bit, we're selling the Gospel short, right? We're not being, we're not bringing our own conviction, which we need in order to bring Christ into people's lives because Jesus wasn't afraid of conflict. He wasn't afraid to tell people,

Beth :

It'd be hard to read that in the Gospels.

Fr Steve :

You know, he, he was bringing a Gospel that was at conflict with the world, a conflict with the culture, in conflict with oftentimes, you know, my sinful nature of what I want to do. And so the Gospel by its very nature is, is rooted in conflict because it comes calling us to repent of our lives and to believe in something beyond, you know, my, my, just my immediate kind of human or natural or carnal desires or wants. Right.

Beth :

So you're saying we can't just avoid conflict and hope it just disappears or dissolves or it goes away.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. I'm saying the very nature of the Christian life is conflict. It's not only conflict. But it is conflict. Yeah. and that's because the content is so radically important because sin has entered the world and Jesus is at battle with sin and any Christian who seeks to follow Christ has to be battling sin in their own lives. And then, you know, however the Lord calls them to do that in the world.

Beth :

Yep. I knew one parish that one of their core values was not bearing your talents, not burying, excuse me, not burying your talents in the ground, but like speaking up. And so they had a policy that whenever they were about to make a decision, everyone had to speak, you didn't all have to agree, but everyone had to speak and share something on the topic, you know? So I do think you're right. It's, it's important that we not just avoid having the conflict that we really have the conversation for the good of, for the good of the mission, for the good of, you know, for the, for the purpose of using the gifts and the temperament that God's given us, right. Using the mind he gave us to contribute and to, to seek what is the best.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the other important reason conflict is important is just the way Christ uses his church, that he gives different members, different perspectives and different gifts. And so, you know, being an extrovert and a little bit louder, I know, you know, it's not, it's not hard for me often to kind of put forward my idea or my vision or my thoughts. But I need other people to kind of question those or to kind of make sure that they're the right way to go and to bring their own perspectives, their own gifts and you know, their own portion of the Holy Spirit, which is going to kind of be in dialogue with each other, even, you know, our heartfelt thoughts about what's best to find the right way forward to find the right strategy. You know, God has given different gifts in a different portion of his Holy Spirit to different parts of the church, right. And, and that requires a way of interacting. That's going to help us find the way forward. I mean, I think about the early church in acts and even like looking at Acts 15, the council of Jerusalem, where there's this debate about what it looks like for the Church to be both Jewish and Gentile, you know do the Gentiles have to take on the Jewish identity of circumcision and dietary laws? Right. And there were really strong thoughts about that. And it's not that people were like evil for thinking a certain way, it was, that was the way forward was to kind of hash it out with heartfelt thought. But we'll talk about how to handle conflict in a minute, but the idea that it's so important that we are not running away from it because God has given you, Beth, gifts that he didn't give me and the church isn't going to be, who she's meant to be if you know, you're not using those gifts because you're afraid of conflict, or if I'm not using my gifts, because I'm afraid of conflict.

Beth :

Very true. And, you know, it matters that we have conflict. It also matters that we have healthy conflict. Right. And I think that just as much as we have the absence of conflict, when there should be ideological debate, constructive processing of ideas, I think also sometimes we just have really unhealthy conflict that can get--that just can impact our culture and it can impact the way that we're carrying out the work that Christ is entrusted to us. You know, and I think about how Christ prayed that we would be one, right? Not only for these, I pray, but for those who will believe in me that through their word so that they may all be one as you father and me and I in you, that they may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. So I just wonder, like, how do we, I feel like we've got to do a better job of both having the conflict, but still maintaining the unity of the body, right? The charity that should always be a part of the way we live life together, the way we do church, the way we do mission. I just think the way that we treat each other matters and it impacts the fruit we see in our parishes, both when we're not having the conflict that we should be having. And when we have the conflict in a way that's more toxic. Yeah.

Fr Steve :

Yeah, the unity piece, I think, is beautiful. One of the ways I think about, you know, the, the Church is one, and we're called to unity, but we're not called to uniformity, right. We're not called to be little assembly line products of one another, or the bishop or the Pope, or even of, of Christ. I mean, we're called to imitate Christ, but to do it in the way that he has brought us into the world, you know, I even think about liturgy. And that can be kind of toxic these days, different liturgical fights or debates. But, you know, I think about friends of mine who are Eastern, right, or Chaldeans. We have, they have a different liturgical tradition. And so there is unity in diversity, and the church does this with different cultures, too. Right. We have parishes with different ethnic backgrounds or different expressions of the Catholic faith. The unity is in Christ in what we profess and believe. But it's not a kind of flattening that, you know, it's not, it's not a kind of, how do we suppress everything that's different or distinct about us so that we can be kind of communist cookie-cutters of each other. And every building looks exactly the same. And, you know, all of our personalities are shaved off to, we kind of have no rough edges. But the unity comes from all of us using our gifts and talents for the same mission. And we have to do it in a way that expresses the unity we have for each other. Right. So praying that we may be one Christ, praise that for his apostles. And that prayer is still efficacious for us. We are the beneficiaries of that fruit. The way we handle conflict with each other has to have a distinctly Christian character. We have to be marked by the gospel in, you know, when you're wrong about pumpkin spice stuff, or, you know, in theory when I'm wrong about something.

Beth :

Which you probably can't think of any examples at the moment.

Fr Steve :

No, no, no. But there's a presumption of good will, right. I think we have to start with that, that we don't label someone as wrong or evil or as beyond conversation. Yeah. So I think we have to start with that presumption of good will as Christians, that when I see you, I see someone who's striving to follow the Lord. Right. And so I have to start with that. So even if you have a different strategy or a different approach than I do, that's rooted in, okay, well, Beth, isn't an awful person and I can't just write her off. I can't just say. Yeah, right. No, no. But sometimes we have to start that. I can't just write her off and say, well, she's wrong because of X, Y, and Z character flaws or ignorance. I have to start with the presumption that you're approaching this as a disciple of the Lord.

Beth :

Yeah. So how do we have healthy conflict then? I mean, I guess I had thoughts about, you know, sometimes we see conflict coming a ways away, sometimes we don't, and we're just surprised, but when we see it coming, I think it's important really to be praying about it. If there's a person that you have conflict with praying about that, and really trying to be aware personally, what is it about this person or this situation that, that bothers me so much, because if we don't have that, self-awareness where we're going in without, without really having done our homework right? To prepare. And I think the other piece is really thinking about, as you say, this presumption of good will, right. Trying to understand the other, trying to understand the other perspective, if it's an ideological thing or the other person trying to understand what might they be thinking or feeling, or you know, trying to see the other perspective with empathy and compassion and also wisdom so that we can have conversations that are more fruitful.

Fr Steve :

I think, you know, we, we presume their good will. We also recognize their inherent human dignity that God has given them gifts that he has not given me per se. And so I am looking at the other person, even the person I disagree with as someone who has something to offer me who has a perspective or a you know, gifts and talents that I don't have, and that I can learn from now, that doesn't mean I just give in and assume the person's right. And I'm not right. Because God has given each of us, you know, gifts and talents, but we do have to recognize the way that even in the messiness of conflict, God is at work there. And that he's bringing about not, not just a resolution to problems and difficulties, but he's bringing about a way for each of us to be more the disciples were called to be, and to set an example for one another. And I think that is so important, you know, how we handle conflict, we don't run away from it, but we also know it's not kind of a total war theory that everything is allowed. Right. I do have to I do have to kind of live my Christian life as an example to others. Especially when we have conflict. I, I remember one seminarian brother here when I was going through seminary, who I just really struggled to get along with. I just disagreed with him on everything. And I remember talking to my spiritual director about it and you know, that great time of spiritual direction when you're telling him all the faults of another person. Right. Really helping you grow in holiness by sharing all of another person's fault. And I remember him stopping me and saying, "Hey, what's good about him? Tell me something good about him." And I thought for a minute, I said, "there's nothing good about him." Like, I can't think of anything. And he said, "okay, well, do you see the problem?" There he goes, you know, "God created him in his image and likeness. And if you can't see that, you need to pray and ask the Lord to show you how Jesus sees him." And that was so helpful for me to go, go to prayer and say, Jesus, how do you see this guy helped me to see him with your eyes and not with all of the faults that I have kind of not just listed, but like put on these glasses of the lens of all the faults of this guy. So whatever he did, I only saw it through that. And that was so refreshing because then I got to see like, oh, here are all the good qualities. Here are all the things he does that, you know, I can't do, or I don't see. And, and it didn't kind of wash away the problems, but it did give me a new perspective. And I thought that was so helpful. So I share that to say conflict--you know, if we find ourselves kind of creating a villain in our conflict, like we need to go back to prayer and say, Lord helped me see this as another disciple. Or maybe it's not a disciple. Maybe it's someone in the world helped me see this as, as someone you've created in your image and likeness.

Beth :

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think another thing that can impact the way that we handle conflict is just overworking and burnout. I've seen it in so many parishes where people are working so much doing good things. But they, they put so much of themselves into it that by the end of the day or the week or the week, the projects they're exhausted. And then really, it's hard to be charitable to one, you know either, either someone doesn't appreciate what you did or no one knows what you did or--and I just I've seen it in myself. I've seen it in others where, you know, by the end of it, the overworking in the burnout leads to snippy-ness people being unkind arguments about who gets, what room, when, where the tables and chairs, you took my whatever, you know, all these things that, that ultimately impact the fruit of the good we're trying to do. So I know it sounds like an odd tip for having healthier conflict, but to work less, you know, I mean, I've been working on--years ago, I was working on a project and I, I thought, you know, I could, I could hear the Lord saying like, okay, Beth, that's enough stop. Like, thank you, thank you. Good. That'll do, like run along, you know, and I kept thinking, well, I'll just make it a little better. It would be so nice if there was sacred art. And so let me just find some secret art and I'll pull that in. And anyway, by the time I finished it, you know, of course the project was, was announced and it had been blessed and worked on for months and it was announced. And then the moment after it was announced, they announced another project that had just come up to come together the day before that was almost identical and everyone chose the other project. And I just wanted to throw my computer. I was so mad. Right. But like, God had told me it's enough, it's enough. Right. And so I had a harder time having healthy conflict in that moment because I was thinking, you asked me to do this. I worked on it all this time, but I heard the Lord say it's enough, Beth. Yeah, it's enough. That'll do thank you. You know, run along. And I, and I think so often work can become kind of an addiction to us in ministry where it we'll just do, I'll just do one more good thing. Let me just do one more good thing, but we've, if we can't be kind to our coworkers, then we've probably not heard the Lord asking us to stop.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. I think that's such good advice because it does also kind of corrupt something for the Lord into something for me, or, you know, okay. It's for the Lord, but I've done it the way I want to instead of out of obedience to him, and then there's an attachment to that,

Beth :

And the attachment is where you're vulnerable.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. Yup. Yup. And you, can't kind of rejoice in the Lord or receive it as a gift the way God wants, you know, whatever success for you to be--for it to be received that way. We become attached and distorted in that. Yeah. Let's talk about a couple of areas. How do we have good conflict with people who are our bosses or our superiors how do we have good conflict with our peers? And then I know a number of people who listen to this are also in positions of of leadership in some way. Right. And so how do we, how do we set it? Not just set a good example, but how do we have good conflict with people that we're called to lead in some way. So which one of those do you want to start with?

Beth :

Let's start with the boss. I'll say one lesson that I've learned many times, and I think I don't need to learn any more. I'm all set on this one is not to bring conflict with your boss up in a group. I think I've learned that one. I think I'm all done with that. I'm all done with that one. So that doesn't go well, that doesn't go well. So go in private, go in private. And I'll often when I didn't think it was a big deal, I just thought like, but what about this? And really there's no need for what about this in a group setting it's better to be done in private. So I think in private sharing, sharing ideas, sharing ideas, and sharing, what's helpful and maybe what's not helpful and all ultimately recognizing you don't have control. So you can share those things as ideas and input, but that's the best I've got.

Fr Steve :

I got a couple ideas. I mean, one is, and they're both very practical because we want to be practical here. One of them is just knowing the temperament of your boss can be really helpful. Some people like big ideas or they want to hear kind of the exciting part and then like great work out the details later and others, and I know a lot of priests can be like, I want to make sure all the details are thought through right before we do this. And that's something I've learned too, cause I'm kind of like, Hey, wouldn't it be cool if we did that? And then like, yeah, we'll figure out the details, right? I don't want to burden you with all the details and that's what they want to know, and then the idea can fall flat. So, so that's for an idea, or if you want to change something to like, you know, what about that? Some people are really open to that and others require a lot more. And she said in private and done in a way that can, you know, just take a little bit more forethought. Very true. So I think knowing the style of the leader can be really helpful and how to deal with conflict for the individual. I think another way that we can deal with conflict, you know, you talked about doing it in private, that I think was really good. I find being direct, really helpful, direct and charitable. Right. So again, you know, we all have our own leadership style, but for me, I think less beating around the bush and less kind of like, well, yeah, just like, Hey, here's an issue. I'm just not sure what to do with it. I'm bringing it as a question, not as an accusation. Like how can I resolve this better? Or how can I understand what you want me to do here? And then you know, kind of the deeper point here that I was trying to think of earlier is not being afraid to set boundaries as well. Right. Cause sometimes conflict can come because you're always trying to say yes, or you feel like you can't say no. And to be clear, as you talked about overworking to, to just set enough boundaries that, you know, our life--as important as the work we do is, it's not as important as the way we live as disciples of the Lord. And so if are just driving ourselves crazy or running ourselves ragged, we need to be able to set the boundaries to say, I just can't take on that project again. Or if I take it on, like, I need to let something else go to be able to be that direct even about saying, I have to set a boundary here. I can't do that extra thing. I know that can be really hard, but following Jesus is not meant to be easy. Right. sometimes taking up our cross means doing those difficult things. So his burden is light, but sometimes that's a real burden.

Beth :

Yeah. I think boundaries are good.

Fr Steve :

Okay. So that is dealing with the boss, dealing with the boss. Let's talk about how do we deal with peers? And you've given some, some good ideas with that. I think, you know, being charitable--

Beth :

Go to the person, I just say one more time, go to the person with whom you have a conflict go to the person. Yeah. So I would say the way to not do that well is to not go to the person and literally to go to anyone else that would be doing it wrong. So officially objectively doing it wrong. Yeah. But how often does this happen? Right. Even just making people's faults known. Right? yeah. We just, that's absolutely not necessary. Yeah. Go to the person. Yeah. Go to the person. That's that's my best.

Fr Steve :

What if they don't listen?

Beth :

You don't know that they won't listen. We can't assume things. Yeah. We can't assume that they won't listen. Even if they haven't listened in the past, you have to still go to the person. My other thought for working with conflict with peers is that involving leadership is important, but it might not work to wait around on leadership to resolve your conflicts. One, boss can't fix everything. Pastor doesn't have time to handle every small conflict that arises. And also, there's the subsidiarity level, right? It's best to be addressed by people who are closest to the problem. Right. So if we can work it out, let's, let's just go and try to work it out. I had a situation in a different parish where, you know, I had a coworker tell parishioners that this thing I'd been working on was a total waste. Tell him the whole parish total waste. And I was mad. I was mad. And instead of going to the person, I went to leadership and I said like, I can't, I can't change what a person is saying in the parish. But if, if one of your staff is saying things like this, like maybe that would be something you'd want to, you know, just address or something, you know? And I think that it was perhaps addressed in a way that either it wasn't heard or it didn't change the behavior one way or the other. And I thought, you know, I was sitting there with all my feelings about it, and I didn't get a chance to go to him and speak myself because I waited for leadership to address it. And so I think probably if I was doing that in the future, I would go to leadership, but I would, I would take it first to the person and say with, with assumptions of good will, right. I heard, I heard maybe this is that, is that what happened? Can we talk about that? How do we, how do we do this? Right? How do we work as coworkers in the vineyard when both of us have been asked to do these important things? How do we, how could we like respect each other in each other's work?

Fr Steve :

Yeah, no, that's good. There's a podcast I listened to called Radical Candor, which is about dealing with conflict. And they talk about radical candor as one of the four quadrants of how to deal with it. And it's the right one. It's not the apathy piece and it's not the, you know, false conflict or a false unity piece, but radical candor being the way that we're called to interact with each other. This is a kind of business leadership podcast, which gives advice for, you know, how to, how to handle conflict. But I think with the Gospel it's so much more important because we're called to holiness.

Beth :

But not in all circumstances just when it's convenient or I'm praying, right? Yeah.

Fr Steve :

So even when it's hard or even when you don't think it will be fruitful, they're not going to listen. Like our job as Mother Teresa said is not to be successful. It's to be faithful and being faithful means we do what's right in season and out of season, we tell the truth, even when it might get us in trouble, or it might not make us look the best. Why, because that's what disciples do. Right? That's what the life of a disciple is about. Right. And the same with going to a person when we have a conflict with them, as you know, our Lord says in Matthew chapter 18, you know, if your brother sins against you go to him and tell him his fault between the two of you, if there's a problem, face it directly, don't run away from it. And don't think, well, I have to kind of create a situation that's going to resolve it in a different way. Sometimes it's just the radical candor of, Hey, that really hurt. Or I just, I don't think what we're doing here is right. Can we talk about that? Right. And to do that as peers, not only I think, does it witness our discipleship more and kind of help us grow in doing hard things, doing the right thing. Right. I can also build really strong bonds when we're able to have those conversations with each other.

Beth :

Should we--does it count if we're going on email, go to the person? Can I just send an email?

Fr Steve :

I think it depends. Again, you know, as I talked about leaders, knowing their disposition and their approach, some people get pretty defensive. And some people are bad at doing this out of the gate, and it can help to kind of write it out the way they want to say it with the nuance. I think email can, okay. I find I'm better in person than an email, even though I make mistakes. Like I come across more human. I find in my email, it can come, come across a little too a little too abrupt or a little too direct. And it can almost come across as accusatory. So for me, like, even if it's picking up the phone, right, if I can't physically be there, I find that to be helpful. Do you have thoughts on this?

Beth :

I mean, I think that's well said. I think sometimes when it's written out, it's clearer, you know, and that can be helpful and avoid saying things you don't mean. So I, I can see the value in that. I think oftentimes--when I think of conflict, that's being resolved on email, I think of really the less prayerful emails that are sent the less thoughtfully discerned emails that are sent the ones that are just kind of reactionary. And I think those probably are not helpful in addressing any of the things that we're attempting to do here. I think typically reactionary emails like that seem to miss--what they appear to me to miss the presumption of good will as I've seen them and been a part of them. So yeah.

Fr Steve :

On the receiving end.

Beth :

Of course, only on the receiving end.

Fr Steve :

And then let's talk our own leadership: how we can handle with handle conflict, you know, as leaders oftentimes we're asked to supervise people, they might be employees, they might be volunteers or, or parishioners at times, right? Sometimes it's just a conflict where it's not necessarily a volunteer, but it's someone who you know, who you have to deal with. I'll say for my own role as a priest, some of the hardest things, but the most necessary to me has been when I see people walk away with the Eucharist after receiving holy communion and they don't know, or they have some other plan in mind now it's never been nefarious and evil that I know of, but it often is someone who doesn't know what to do, or they want to bring the Holy Communion to their parents at home, and so they just put the host in their pocket. And when I see that, I think like, I know I'm going to embarrass this person by stepping away. That's right. There's no way not to do it as the priest at mass, but I think there's no way for me not to do this either. Like I can't just ignore it. So again, you know, that presumption of Goodwill to say, I'm not calling you an awful person, but I am saying what, what you're doing now or what is happening now, I have to address and I want to do it with love and charity, but I also want to do it with a kind of example setting to say, so just taking that, like the Eucharist is really important to us. And so like, I have to take this seriously, but I also have to take you as a, you know, a disciple or a potential disciple seriously too. So I want to balance that, that like, okay, we have to handle this really serious situation, but I want you to know you're cared about respected and loved while we're doing that. Even if I have to say like, no, you need to give that to me right now. And we can talk after mass, but maybe in some more kind of work settings at church pastoral ministry settings any thoughts on how to handle conflict as a leader?

Beth :

The, the, you know, yeah, it's hard. It's just, it's hard. And I think you know, I've, I've worked for leaders and been leaders who avoid it, right, who avoid the conflict and just never address it. And it, it just doesn't fix it, it, it doesn't go away and it, and it gets better and you lose people's respect by--they say, culture is shaped by what we reward and what we tolerate. So if you tolerate super toxic, strange behavior, guess what your culture is going to be super strange and toxic, you know? And so I always think about that when it comes to like a conflict, is this worth, is this something that if not addressed will become a part of our culture, if so, then it's got to be addressed, you know? And I think building trust is huge and looking for agreements wherever possible, right? Occasionally I'll encounter someone who just, I mean, just to make it personal--because I'm a woman and that's how I think about it--I just think this person just doesn't like me for whatever reason, maybe they really don't like me, and maybe they don't like the idea that they think I'm caring. I don't know. But I'm sort of tireless. I just sort of, won't give up on trying to make a friend. So if I see people around, I'll just, I'll go and talk to them, you know, not because I think they'll be excited, I'm doing so, but because I want to build trust, I want to build the relationship and I'm hoping that we can like move forward, you know? And so I guess, I think when it comes to handling things like that you know, I, I do it, I address the conflict, but I do it in a way that's trying, I'm trying to be loving and charitable and hear their perspective. And I'm just trying to win people to it. You know? So if people don't think we should be doing X or Y, or they don't know why we're doing it, I just, I just can't stop having the conversation. I just can't stop doing it. Whether they, they work professionally and I'm responsible, or they're a volunteer, I just can't stop trying to sell the vision, trying to win people to it, but trying to do it through trust and, and more friendship.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. So my own leadership style, which, you know, could be super wrong, but I don't think it's super wrong. Is: I'm, I can be pretty direct. I try to be direct and I know that can come across as strong. And so I try to balance that with apologizing a lot. So, you know, cause I found that to be helpful that like, when you have to say something hard or direct you know, that really needs to be said because the mission's important, right. To, to do that right. You know, with charity and clarity. Right. But you know, clarity to me is directness, right? Not to leave a away, like, wait, what just happened is that bad or good that I did. Right. Like, I don't really know what the cash out of that was. So I do try for clarity with charity of like, Hey, this happened, like we just can't do that. That can't happen. Right. We need to figure out how to fix that. But also to know that, like, there are times when I've lost my temper or I've become, you know, a little snippy or like I'm in a situation where my patience is not great. And to be really willing to say, to come back to that later and be like, Hey, I shouldn't have done that. Like, you know, we have to resolve this, we have to fix it, but I'm very sorry for how I handled it. I'm sorry for how I treated you. I shouldn't have said that. I find that to be helpful.

Beth :

See, that directness and that humility and the willingness to make mistakes, that's what makes it Christian--the way we handle it. I had a boss once I was interviewing for a job and he said, I'm not a perfect leader. I'm not a perfect leader. I'm going to make mistakes. But when I make the mistakes, I'm going to apologize for them. And I'm going to ask for forgiveness. He's like, I can do that. And I shared it with my sister who works in the secular space and she just, she was like, I've never heard of a boss saying something like that, that like, I'm not a perfect leader and I'll make mistakes, but I'll, I'll say, I'm sorry. And I'll ask for forgiveness. That's what makes it Christian. Our humility and our willingness to accept and admit our mistakes. Right. But still have the conflict and do our best.

Fr Steve :

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that is the balance of Christian discipleship is to have confidence in the leadership we've been entrusted with. Right. Not to walk around as Eeyore thinking, you know, we're, we're no good. And like, we can't do anything, but also to say like, yeah, I don't want to be cocky or a jerk. And when I make mistakes, I need to be willing to, to own up to them. So for all of our wonderful listeners, I hope this has been a helpful conversation and discussion about why conflict is important as Christians, why it's important for our movement of Unleash The Gospel here in Detroit, because God is asking us to do things that are hard. He's asking us to come together and do difficult work. It's really important for building up the Kingdom of God. And we're going to do that imperfectly. And we're going to have different ideas on how to do that and what the most important first step or most important, you know, next step is. And God doesn't want us to shy away from the gifts and talents he's given us, but he wants us to enter into those conversations and conflicts with Christian charity, with love, for one another, presuming the good will of the other, and knowing that he has given gifts and talents to others to help us together, make the right decisions for the Gospel to be unleashed in southeast Michigan and well beyond.

Beth:

Well beyond. This has been the Encounter Grow Witness podcast. We are delighted to have another episode this month, please subscribe, listen, share it with your friends. We want more people to be hearing and growing together so that we can unleash the Gospel.