We're tackling another listener question this episode, this time about marriage. What happens when multiple people want to marry you?

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We've talked about this a lot on the show, but regardless of whether or not you're monogamous or non-monogamous, we want to feel special as individuals to our partners, and we want sometimes to be— to have certain things reserved for us. And so it is understandable that looking at something like marriage, which feels like it is only reserved for one person, can make you feel, even though your partner is telling you, you know, you also are a life partner to me, you also mean so much, it can make that feel like I'm always going to be second best in some way. And that can be, I'm assuming, really, really challenging. My head immediately goes to what if no one gets married?

Welcome to the Multiamory Podcast. I'm Jase.

I'm Emily.

And I'm Dedeker.

We believe in looking to the future of relationships, not maintaining the status quo of the past.

Whether you're monogamous, polyamorous, swinging, casually dating, or if you just do relationships differently, we see you and we're here for you.

On this episode of the Multiamory podcast, we're talking about mawwiage. Mawwiage.

Oh, Jase, no one alive of the three of us know what we're talking about.

That dream within a dream of being married to multiple partners.

Is that the dream?

Now we've, we've deviated here. Maybe, you know, for some people that is the dream within the dream.

That's true.

And that's what we're talking about today. Have you ever been in a situation where you feel like you have to choose between two people? What if you made a commitment to someone, got married to them, but now you want to include another partner in that? How, how do you go about this? How do you deal with these feelings? Let's get into all of this today from this listener question. Also, if you're interested in learning about our fundamental communication tools that we reference on this show all the time, check out our book Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, which covers some of our most used communication tools for all types of relationships. You can find links to buy it at multiamory.com/book or wherever fine books are sold.

And a quick disclaimer: we have spent a lot of time studying healthy relationship communication, but part of what makes relationships so interesting is that they're all different. So remember, everybody's situation is unique. If this sounds like you, we still encourage you to use your own judgment, seek professional help if needed, because remember, you are the only true expert on your life and feelings and your decisions are your own. We are going to be getting into talking about maybe some legal territory today, so of course the reminder that we're not legal professionals either. And this question has been edited for time and clarity.

Here's the question: What do you do when both partners want to marry you? I've been with one partner, my fiancée Kate, for over 4 years and was already engaged when I met my girlfriend Dani. I own a home with Kate and we are due to be married next month. We plan to have children in the future. I was very open, honest, and clear about my circumstances with Dani before we started dating, as I was her first Poly experience and the first time she had dated a woman too. She has really taken things in stride and has done all the homework, learning about Poly stuff, reading the books, listening to this podcast. Things progressed beautifully and we have been together a year and a half. I would also now consider my girlfriend a life partner too, and she feels the same. Dani expressed a couple months ago that she would also want to have a child with me and has been coming to terms with me getting married. It has only been since she met me that she has ever considered more long-term commitments with a partner, as she has had bad experiences with boyfriends in the past. I would love to co-parent with her and plan to split my time between both homes. Dani is moving closer to us soon. Both are high earners, and so the stress of me worrying about paying for two families is not there. Plus, there would be no medical bills either. Thank you, NHS. This is not an America-centric letter by any means.

Cannot relate.

No, cannot relate at all. I cannot marry them both, and conversations around what might be fair have come up a lot lately while Dani comes to terms with this. If I could marry them both, I would. Yet UK legal systems are not made for poly life. I am deeply in love with Dani and I want to marry my fiancée, but I never dreamed that I would meet another person who would want to marry me too. I'm feeling like I have to choose. Help. Signed, Uncertain in the UK.

I think it's a coin toss. Easy. Leave it up to fate.

Let the gods decide.

Arm wrestling match or something.

Ooh, like a test of skills and strength. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, I like that.

It'd be like It's very like The Odyssey.

I was gonna say, is it The Odyssey or The Iliad where they have to do the competition to see who can marry Penelope?

It's The Odyssey. Yeah, it's The Odyssey. Yeah, that's great. Wow, that's a great idea. We're done. Perfect.

Yeah, you're welcome. Yep. Thank you for joining us. Our question of the week this week is, what contest did your spouse do to earn your hand in marriage?

Yeah, well, okay, very medieval.

I want to start at the gate just to say that not every poly person is aiming for wanting marriage as a legal right. And there's a lot of debates about like, is that something that we should even be pushing for as a political collective or not? This echoes debates that have happened in the queer community for a long time, right, around are marriage rights really the thing that we're going for? Is that assimilationist? Is that not radical enough, right? So I just want to sprinkle in that discussion and check that box and acknowledge it. Regardless of how you feel about that, in, you know, Uncertain in the UK's life, clearly marriage is an important thing that they want and that they want to do, not just with one person but with multiple people as well. What have y'all's personal experiences been with this? You ever want— you ever had multiple people banging down your door to marry you?

Like everyone I meet.

Two very different sides of the coin. Me, I'm like, no, this has never happened to me. And Jase just So many people want to marry him. That makes sense to me, actually.

No, I'm kidding. No, I mean, I'm honestly having a little bit of a hard time with the question because I guess from my own history of being someone who did really want to get married when I was kind of still living in more like normie monogamous land, that's meaningful, it's romantic, God wants you to do it, all those sorts of things. To, you know, where I ended up of more of this looking at marriage a little more critically, of it's this legal contract for, like, businesses between people that's gotten all weirdly tangled up in romance and all that, to where I'm— part of me just wants to be like, yes, let's talk about this question, but first I just want to say chill, pump the brakes, just like slow down, question asker.

I was supposed— I was, I was trying to be validating.

No, and I appreciate that.

You're taking it away.

I am taking it away a little bit, and it's just not to say like, don't ever— and I think this is a great conversation to have, but I just want to say, like, to put it in perspective, the fact that you're getting married to your first partner after 4 years, I'm like, wow, that's kind of soon, huh? And I think most people in the world do not think of 4 years as soon, but I'm kind of like, that's on the early side of getting to know someone to be making a commitment like that. So I just want to throw that out there. Just something to think about. I know you don't want to hear it. I know everyone's going to hate on me for saying it, but just, just don't, don't rush. Don't feel the need to rush any of this.

So when I look at this question, I do have to think about like, why do we want to get married at all? Why does anyone want to get married? And you laid out some of the reasons right there that for certain people it is a religious thing. I think for a lot of people, of course, the legality of it all and the merging of two families is something that's really important to them. And I also think about, you know, the, the romantic side of it, which I think is one of the reasons why a lot of people, when they're younger and maybe even beyond, want to get married. It's because it feels really romantic to do so. It feels like you're in a fairy tale or in a storybook, and you're fulfilling something that has always been there in the back of your mind, and you're finally getting to do it. And I think a lot of what comes with that type of marriage is just the ceremony of it to a degree. Like the ritual involved in getting married and having a bunch of people come and celebrate you and celebrate your soon-to-be spouse and getting to actually go through the motions of that sort of ritual. And of course you can't legally get married to two people, but we have certainly heard of multiple, like, commitment or marriage ceremonies taking place. So from that standpoint, I just want to offer up, it is possible to have that type of ceremony, ritual, commitment, whatever, with multiple people, of course, even if maybe the legal part in that specific way is going to be maybe reserved for one person. But there are other legal things that you can do with multiple people that I'm sure we will get into as well.

I love that. I think that's a great point, Emily. And I just want to go out there and say that I do love rituals. As much as I might shit on marriage a little bit sometimes, I do actually really like rituals, and I think they're very valuable. So I like that, that way of looking at it, of like, is that part of it? Because if that's the case, I think that's absolutely something that can be really meaningful and important in our lives.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I feel like this is all circling around, I think, the important conversation that maybe this person's already had with their partner, but it is around like, what is the longing that's there? What is the purpose of this.

Yeah.

So if it is just about like, I want to know that I'm your life partner, I want to know that you think about me in that way, I want to know essentially that you like claim me in front of other people, right? Or like, you know, in a very romantic way, like in front of your family and stuff like that. And like, you are making this kind of declaration to other people that I am important too, then yeah, like I totally get that. Of course, like when we get into legal stuff, and because of the fact that kids have been mentioned so many times, I'm assuming that is also what's tied into that there too, right? Of like, if I want to have kids with somebody, being married provides certain legal and like parental protections, right? And that's what's hard, that if I end up wanting to have kids with multiple people, how do I recreate those protections?

Do you have to be married to someone, or like, do you have to be the child of someone to merge names from a legal standpoint?

Hold on a second.

What I mean by this is—

This is like SAT logic.

I, I just, I actually am like wondering the logistics behind this because I would, when I was thinking about this, when I was reading this earlier, I was thinking about, okay, if Kate and the question asker got married and they shared a name, a married name, and then Dani got married, not, not actually legally got married, but like if they all had children together or kind of merged families, could the names be like a hyphenate so that there are still like— so legally the kids all kind of exist?

I like that the names are what you're concerned about.

Yeah.

No, I'm concerned about it because of the legality of it. So for instance, my parents never got married, but my middle name is my father's last name. So I still have his name in my name somewhere, and that was, I think, for legal reasons as well. So I'm just looking at it from that perspective. Like, do you have to be legally married to someone in order to— or like the kid of someone?

I think what's hard is that, like, we've covered this topic on our show before, usually with a lawyer, like a family lawyer who's comfortable working with polyamorous families and things like that. And so my understanding from that, at least based in U.S. law, depending on the state, there are different clever arrangements that you can partake in, right? If we think about the fact that like marriage is just like a tool, right? It's like, how do we use the tool to our advantage to create the thing that we want, right? And that's everything from maybe choosing to be legally married to one partner for a certain period of time. And then when it's time to have kids with the other partner, then like going through a— basically hiring a lawyer to help with all of the like puzzle pieces. To like make it so that, you know, custody and parenting rights and everything are all ironed out if you're going to choose to like marry somebody else to get those legal protections, parental protections, or whatever. Now again, like I said at the top of the show, we're not legal experts. And what changes this is also that it's based in the UK where we don't have as much information, right, about the landscape there. But I think like if it were me in this situation, that's the rabbit hole I would first start exploring, is very convoluted, intense. Yeah, if there's any legal experts who are comfortable with polyamory or comfortable with like non-traditional family formation and then seeing what they would advise, right? Because it could be things of like working within what the existing systems and tools are, or it's like, I mean, we hear stories all the time of, again, this is mostly coming from the US, which like really favors businesses and corporations of like Poly's forming a corporation, forming an LLC. And that's not going to cover you in the same exact way as marriage does, but it really kind of depends on exactly what protections and rights you're trying to secure. And then just like finding the shape or finding the tool that's going to work for that.

Yeah. Okay. So I did want to say that from looking into this a little bit from gov.uk, I would recommend going and checking that out and looking at birth registry and how this works, that it actually seems a little easier than it is in the US.

Really?

And also in the US, it varies so much by state that the UK does seem to have this a little bit simpler. And the key is if you do this at the time of the child's birth, then it's easier. Than adding it later. You can still add on that, like, becoming a legal guardian of the child later on. But if you register the birth together, like if you're doing IVF or like donor insemination or something like that, you can kind of make a parenthood agreement in advance and you don't have to be married for that. So that's kind of the key there is establishing that, like, name on the birth certificate type of relationship to the child. Is a really powerful legal protection for you and your child, but also is something that ties then the two of you together through that child. Yeah, just be aware, like, there are ways of doing a lot of this, which at least to me further emphasizes this idea that it seems like what's important here— and just reading between the lines of the tone of this question— it's about the specialness and the life-partner-ness of the relationship. Rather than I need some specific legal benefit, like, you know, immigration rights or healthcare or something like that.

And so, well, clearly that's not an issue here, right?

Right. Yeah.

And also the fact that this person said that they're all high earners, so they're not gonna have to worry about how expensive it might be to raise their child.

Maybe there's certain things that we can just throw some money at the problem.

Sure.

Potentially.

But I guess what I'm, what I'm getting at is to reiterate what I said before, which is just pump the brakes and slow down and let the relationship take its course. Like, appreciate how special it is rather than focusing on it not having some particular designation, since this new relationship is new, is quite new from just what I can gather from the timing here. But then also realizing that there's the ceremony part of like, it could be handfasting ceremonies, it could be doing something that looks like a church wedding type traditional wedding and just doesn't have the courthouse paperwork that goes with it, but that everyone coming knows and treats it as that. Or it could be something like that in addition to sharing some kind of parentage rights with a kid. So just like, you've got a lot of things that you can do here to meet the different needs that you're looking for.

Can we talk about that specialness part of it? Because I, I think that's an important part. Yeah, I think we need to get into the emotional part of it.

Okay, we're going to do that. But first, we're going to talk about the emotions we have for our sponsors, which is appreciation for them supporting us, letting us do this show for free for all of you every week. Please do give them a listen. And of course, if you would rather become a member of our amazing community and get ad-free episodes, as well as being part of our Discord, joining our video discussion groups, things like that, go to Multiamory.com/join and you can sign up there for as little as $5 a month or more if you're able to contribute more to help others. We would really appreciate that.

Okay, so I want to talk about the emotions of their partner Dani. And I know Dani's not the one who wrote into us, but, but I guess Dani's doing their homework listening to our podcast, so maybe they'll listen to this too.

Shout out to Dani!

Shout out to Dani!

Yeah, well done, well done, very well done. Because so I myself personally have not had to go through something quite like this. Like, I've dated people who are married but I've not dated someone who's like engaged and then like they're getting married, like they're having a whole to-do, a whole wedding and stuff like that. I'm just assuming, I don't know if this is correct, right, but I'm assuming that Uncertain in the UK with their fiancée Kate, that they're probably maybe planning what you'd expect a wedding to be, you know, invite the family, invite the friends, you know, like I'm just assuming because it's because people like to do that, right? And so I have not had to experience that of like someone that I'm falling in love with or have been in love with and have developed like this life partnership level connection with, than going and like having a wedding where like the headspace that I'm in right now, I'm like, I feel like that could possibly be challenging, right?

For sure, absolutely.

Like regardless of— even though you knew ahead of time this is what was going to happen, and maybe you even feel really secure in your relationship with your partner, but like I could see that still being challenging. Now I've had some friends who've had that experience and where it seems like some people have been okay with it and not an issue, but I don't know, I just kind of wanted to acknowledge that and talk about our thoughts about that.

Yeah, I mean, we've talked about this a lot on the show, but there is— regardless of whether or not you're monogamous or non-monogamous, we want to feel special as individuals to our partners, and we want sometimes to be— to have certain things reserved for us. And so it is understandable that looking at something like marriage, which feels like it is only reserved for one person can make you feel, even though your partner is telling you, you know, you also are a life partner to me, you also mean so much, it can make that feel like I'm always going to be second best in some way. And that can be, I'm assuming, really, really challenging. My head immediately goes to, what if no one gets married? And I understand that you're going full abolitionist. Well, it's just It's me. It's not no one ever gets married, but what if instead the option is to try to do something like forming an LLC or, you know, having a commitment ceremony where everyone is together, but the legality of it maybe is just like a courthouse wedding where all of like the pomp and circumstance is something that gets to happen for both parties. And that for whatever reason, like, if there is a specific person who needs specific legal rights, that the marriage part of it, the legal marriage part of it, is reserved for that person. I don't know.

Also, to be fair, okay, now I'm gonna go to bat for Kate. Sure.

I mean, I get it.

Like, we've been planning a wedding, right?

Totally.

That's tough.

However many years or whatever, right?

That's why I'm just like, Dani, no.

Reverse course.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I'm actually going to say, in a move that's going to surprise everyone—

Please, suddenly he's very pro-marriage.

No, I'm also on the side of like, no, don't, don't cancel this marriage. Don't call that off. Don't— like, sure, I think that's like— you look, you've been together four years, which is— that's early. You're rushing into this. No, I'm just kidding. But I think it's a— that's a reasonable amount of time. You've gotten to know each other well, right? You've gotten past the NRE phase by a good amount. Like, I do have a sense that this is meaningful and this is something you've decided to do together. So like, on the one hand, I want to say you've, you've made that plan, and assuming that you still want to marry this person, which it sounds like you do, go ahead with that. Do not change that for this other partner. I would also say don't try to insert this other partner into it, at least not too much, right? Obviously include them, but don't feel like, oh, I need to somehow, like, include them in these vows or, or have them be part of that. And I also want to say this to Dani, if you're listening Yeah, I just want to say this to Dani. What I want us to talk about more is how this is hard, right? This is, this is challenging to see your partner taking that big step when you feel like that's something that you want to. Like, yeah, that, that's tough. But I just think we need to have a little respect for the amount of time there in that relationship, and that this is already a plan that pre-existed this new relationship. And just to kind of understand that they both are special and have their own timelines and their own level of connection. And so just to not— like, I don't have good advice for how to do that, but to say, like, don't call the wedding off. Dani, don't feel like, oh, I'm being left out if I'm not being included in this. Like, that's not how it works. Like, this is something they decided already.

Okay, but no, I want to argue with you. Okay, I love that. Sorry, I'm not going to argue with you in favor of, like, calling the wedding off, or—

Or I didn't mean, like, totally calling the wedding off. I just was like, in my head, immediately went to what is the most like egalitarian thing to do. Yeah, and maybe it would be—

No one gets—

No one gets a wedding.

No one in the world gets married. No, I agree, that's the easier solution. That's just dissolve all marriages. There you go.

It's all gone.

Okay, no, I'm gonna— I'm gonna bring this— I'm gonna bring this to a bigger theme, which is that something that frustrates me slash also lights a fire under my ass and makes me very passionate about this topic is that like when I work with people, like when I work with clients there are so many issues that are just the— not the results of like, oh, you communicated poorly, or oh, you're incompatible, or oh, you made a bad decision, or whatever. Like, there are so many issues that are just the result of being non-monogamous in a monogamous world. And like, that's hard because it gets to a point where I'm just like, well, I can't fix that, you know? It's like, it's a gravity problem.

Sure.

So you are saying dissolve all marriages?

That is— I am saying dissolve all marriages.

Thank you, Dedeker Winston. So actually I won.

Well, well, this is a situation where I'm, where I'm thinking about— again, I'm making a lot of assumptions here of if I have to show up to my partner's wedding as they're getting married to somebody else, and again, like, maybe my partner's been so reassuring to me of how important I am, and I'm a life partner too, and maybe my metamour even, like, we get along and it's great, and I feel very supportive and very loved, but that's still going to be hard to have to go through, like, oh yeah, well, your, your four grandparents and, like, all your cousins don't know that I'm also your life partner, right? Or maybe, maybe I even have to introduce myself as just like a really good friend or something like that. I know for myself personally, this may not be for everybody, but I know for myself personally I'm definitely very sensitive to issues of like visibility and feeling like I'm being made invisible, right? And so I think that would add this extra layer of challenge on top of it for me. I don't know if that's how Dani feels, but yeah.

I think— I do think that's a great point about the visibility piece, and that is— that is something I would say is worth considering, of who's invited to this wedding, who's coming to this, who can like handle it, who can handle the fact that there is—

There are two people involved that are really important to the question asker, and they got to be okay with that if they're going to come to this wedding.

There's a bigger conversation, yeah, about outness in general, right?

Yeah, for sure.

How Poly and proud is this wedding or not?

Right, because if it is a crowd where even if, sure, there's the odd aunt or uncle twice removed or a grandparent maybe who doesn't get it, like, that's one thing. But if the majority of people there, especially all the meaningful ones to you, understand that you have other relationships and understand that those can be serious, that might help take some of the sting off. Because then it is more like These two are having a ceremony, but they're not the only two in the world, and we're not adhering to this kind of traditional view of now this relationship's real and now this relationship's meaningful, which is the shit we attach to marriage that I really don't like.

Yeah, for sure.

Check your guest list.

Okay, I'm gonna— I'm gonna lead us further away from a conclusion. Do you think Dani has to attend their wedding?

Oh no.

But wouldn't you want to— well, yeah, that's the thing.

I mean, listen, I—

So complicated.

I, I get tremendous FOMO when I think about, like, my partner doing stuff with other people. And, like, with this especially, I would want to be there so hard because I would want to feel included, right?

For you, it would help with the Compersion.

Absolutely. Yeah.

Like, the cost of—

I would be at home ruminating and, you know, it just a ball of anxiety because I couldn't attend that. Yeah, I mean, you'd have to be a way different person than I am to be able to be home and be chill.

I will say that I agree with Emily in that I would feel like being excluded from that would feel weirder than the potential discomfort of going. And I'm also basing this off of having recently attended a baby shower of a partner of mine with their other partner. And it was this interesting thing of, of this is this like very special big moment. It was like 10 years in the making with them, right? This is this very big deal.

And it had a gestational period, right?

It's a very long pregnancy, a long time, like a really big, big moment, right, that they'd talked about and debated about for years and decided to do this. And it was that kind of thing where it was a mix of sort of their more everyday friends they actually hang out with and have close relationships with, a lot of queer friends, things like that, as well as, you know, parents and old childhood friends from—

Meaning their parents?

Yes, the couple's parents, right?

The couple's parents. The couple who had the child's parents.

They were not parents yet. This was a baby shower. Okay. But yeah. The future parents' parents, right? And I think that it was a little bit of this weird, who am I? I'm the one who's only been dating this person for two years. I'm kind of this less significant thing. But what I found was really nice, and this goes back to our other point, is that I had several people who, once, you know, we'd introduced ourselves— I think we all had name tags too, so they saw my name— they were like, oh, Jase, like, I've heard about you, it's so great to finally meet you. That I felt like I existed. In their life, right? And so I do think that's really important, and it made a big difference for me. So then I got to be part of this really special thing with them, but also I wasn't front and center with it, you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't about me, but it was cool to be there and special to be there, and that I got to meet a lot of relationships to my partner that I wouldn't normally have met. I can't even think of circumstances where I would have met, like, your childhood friend that your parents went to church together and you met that way, right? Like, that's a relationship— as a partner who's dating, you don't often get to meet that kind of relationship. And it was cool to get that kind of exposure to this deeper network of my partner's life.

That's a really beautiful story, and I think that's a great way to look at it, that you can be a part of this ceremony and maybe have your own ceremony and get to include people that your partners may have never been able to meet before, people from your past, additional grandparents or relatives that would probably never come if you weren't having a kind of ceremony like this.

So I think that's really beautiful.

A baby shower or a wedding. Yeah, yeah, they come out of the woodwork for that, but not for much else.

That's true. Okay, well, okay, fine, I'll move us to a conclusion then. So in conclusion, okay. Our takeaways are: go down a rabbit hole, look at what legal resources are available to you in the UK in order to be legally creative. Yeah, just so you know what's on the table. Have some conversations around the purpose, right? Is it about the ritual? Is it about the visibility? Is it about particular protections? Be creative when it comes to, like, managing the emotions around this, that, like, it's totally normal, I think, to have complicated emotions come up. Like, that's okay. And yeah, sounds like have a conversation around like when Uncertain in the UK and Kate do get married. Yeah. What are the expectations around Dani's participation in that? And how are we gonna talk about that with all our grandparents and all that stuff? And then also all three of you, Dani, Kate, and Uncertain in the UK, since I hope all three of you are listening by this point, if you come up with some kind of clever legal workaround, send us a message and let us know. 'Cause it's also good for us to know what are the creative things that people are doing? What are the resources that are available in the UK? Um, so so that we can help more people who are in similar situations.

This could also be a great topic for talking about in our Discord group, if you're part of that. And that's not, not just to plug, you know, Multiamory.com/join to get access to all of the hidden channels there. But even if you just went into the free public channel to have a discussion, I bet you'd be able to connect with more people that are in the UK and might have more knowledge about the legal system or know what might be solicitors.

Is that what they call it in the UK?

Yeah, lawyers, they call them solicitors.

The wig-wearing ones.

The wiggies. Yeah, the wiggies.

Solicitors.

Embarrassingly American right now.

We gotta wrap this up. Okay. All right. Yes, thank you so much, Uncertain in the UK. We, we appreciate having the opportunity to talk about this because, I don't know, we don't talk about marriage that much on the show. It comes up once in a while, and it's fun. This is a new, a new idea for me, just having to maybe choose between two people. And hopefully you won't have to. Hopefully it won't feel like a choice. It'll just feel like an embrace of multiple wonderful people in your life, maybe in slightly different ways, but it's just adding to the fun. All right, our question of the week, which is going to be on our Instagram stories, is: Have you ever felt like you've had to choose between two partners? What did you do? And the best place to share your thoughts with other listeners is in the episode discussion channel in our Discord server, or you can post in our private Facebook group. You can get access to these groups and join our exclusive community by going to multiamory.com/join. In addition, you can share with us publicly on Instagram @multiamory_podcast.

Multiamory is created and produced by Jase Lindgren, Dedeker Winston, and me, Emily Matlack. Our production assistants are Rachel Schenewerk and Carson Collins. Our theme song is Forms I Know I Did by Josh and Anand from the Fractal Cave EP. The full transcript is available on this episode's page on multiamory.com.