ACU-041 Diversity, Equity and Inclusion: A Conversation About How To Expand Your Thinking And Create An Inclusive Healthcare Clinic, with Kiki Toth of Jane

Artwork for podcast AcuSprout: Acupuncture Podcast

Episode 41 • 12th October 2022 • AcuSprout: Acupuncture Podcast • Stacey Whitcomb Dipl OM

📍 Welcome back to the AcuSprout Podcast. My name's Stacy Whitcomb, and I am your host. In today's episode, I am chatting with Kiki Toth. Kiki is the DEI specialist

for Jane Electronic Health Records.

We talk a little bit about why this is, such an uncomfortable conversation to have for some people, myself included. I talk a little bit about my past and my upbringing and how I have fears around. What's gonna come out of my mouth, even though it's never truly intentional to hurt anybody. I just am always curious about what's bubbling underneath and what's been taught and what I need to unlearn and how to do that, and how to, um, act in ways that isn't going to hurt people.

Some really big concerns that I have, especially in clinic especially. Today, period. So we talk a lot about that and how to approach your own, systems and self-awareness in a, in a kind and self-aware way. We also talk about what Kiki does for Jane and. In their DEI training within their company. We chat a little bit about how to make sure that your clinic is a safe space for all people. And lastly, we share a bunch of resources with you so that you can continue the educational process and become a better human.

So, without further ado, here's 📍 the show.

Welcome to the AcuSprout Podcast, I'm super excited to have you here and talking about DEI and Jane, welcome to the show.

you so much. I'm so excited to be here and such an honor to be invited on.

Oh my gosh. No, this is, this is, um, is, I feel just so important to talk about and I feel like, um, I'm sort of a new practitioner still, and I feel like I've sort of dropped the ball in this area, that I don't feel like I'm educated enough and if I feel that way, that I know that there are so many people out there. So I feel really, really grateful to have Jane as my sponsor and also that they can just provide me with one of the most amazing teachers out there. So I'm super happy to have you here. Before we start, why don't you tell our a little bit about yourself and how you became the, tell me your title, the dei, right?

Because I know you have a couple different things going on, so why don't you talk about that for a minute.

Thank you so much. So my name's Kiki. I currently work at Jane as a product and DI specialist. So I do hold other, uh, roles or I've done other responsibilities at Jane before. But, uh, through all of that, DEI has always been the one thing that stuck with me. So I was doing onboarding recently, um, but I'm actually pursuing a graduate program to shift into teaching.

Uh, and so with that DEI work has stayed with me in. So that's kind of what I'm doing right now at Jane. Uh, in addition to just helping some of our amazing customers like yourself. So

So what kind of did you go to become a DEI

It's a really good question. So there's a few avenues you could probably take to become, um, someone who is either like holding a title or a space for di at your company, like organization, whatever that may be. For myself, I actually didn't go through any formal training, but that's because it started. On my own journey of my own experiences that I was sharing that then grew into a form of education.

And through there, that's really where my dei like, um, expertise took off. Um, but when it comes to more training and more of where my formal background comes from, it's actually through my education because I minor in counseling. Uh, I also have studied anthropology education, basically all types of coursework that.

People oriented, uh, and all of it includes aspects of diversity, and inclusion. So for me, that was where I gained a lot of, more of the, like, what the studies are showing. A lot of that more formal bit. Um, but my experience is actually led me to be more of the conversationalist that I am around this space.

So why don't you define us before we jump in and get really, I'm all excited to dive in, but let's back up for a second throw out the definitions and maybe share with us like what all of these things

Absolutely. And it's such a good point cuz there's so many ways to interpret this and I love to speak through it, through my lens, uh, through the passion that made me like want to go through di or to just kind of work in the DI space overall. D. The d and di stands for diversity, which is just the idea that, you know, we all have our own stories, and those stories make up a large part of our identity.

So when we're thinking about how we all come into work, into relationships, whatever that might be, we're coming as individuals first with. This whole storybook of like who we are that happened before we interact with next person or next group of people we meet. Um, and so why diversity matters is cuz it's each individual story coming together and how we kind of bring these stories in a collective space.

Uh, and that's where inclusion kind of comes in, which is the I and di, which is. With all of these different stories, these beautiful stories, You know, I have, I always say to folks at Jane that, you know, we're the most cultural things on this planet. Um, inclusion is the idea that we get to learn through each other's different sociocultural aspects and really get to like, Build an inclusive and welcoming environment that says, Hey, that's your story.

This is my story, and they're both welcome in this space. So that's how I kind of perceive and look at inclusion. Uh, and when we're talking about the e I like to leave that one for last, cuz I think of it kind of as like, The glue between diversity and inclusion. Uh, it's the idea that, uh, e stands for equity, which is the importance of fairness, not necessarily sameness.

And that's super important because when you're considering, if I wanna make any space, I invite people into inclusive, this welcoming, warm space that is organically diverse, then I have to think about how I'm offering resources, tools. Support through an equity driven lens. So sameness is, for example, like you and I have the same job, we should get paid the same amount.

Like that's a fair, that's like equal, right? Like we wanna be equal in that aspect. We have equal skills, we should be paid fair con, or the same compensation I should say. Um, but then I think of equity as fairness, where sometimes it's the idea that others need additional or alternative resources to have that same access.

And that's. Doesn't have to be the same. And a really good day to day example is like, think of accessibility needs, like when we're designing structures and new places to go, thinking of how we need to consider all the different forms of accessibility. Uh, and that is fairness, right? It's that, yes. Able bodied person might not need this tool or this resource, but someone with a different type of accessibility need might need that.

So just super important to think about when fairness at AKA. Equity is like the really important part and that's why it's so connected with diversity and inclusion

that's pretty

huge

actually, because that's not how I. First of all, I've had, I, I said, I've not had a lot of conversations around this so I'm really excited to hear this, like equity, when I hear the way that you just described equity, and I think that's why you describe it that way, not how I

envisioned it

Right. And, like you said, we all have different stories when we come to things and even definitions, Right. And, and structure of words. So equity. I love that because we all don't come from the same places and have the same opportunities. And if you have a workplace, you should everybody up so that they have fair opportunities to create the same accomplishments.

Right. Yeah, I like that a lot. And I really like the explanation of fair, because that's, that's

Yeah, and I'm with you. Like that's what stood out for me cuz I've really taken a big dive in the last few years in this content. And for me, like I had always had that same perception of like, well, sameness, you know, equality, that's what we're fighting for. And in some context, absolutely, absolutely we should all be treated the same in some context and things like that.

When it comes to. Resources and support. That's why like, um, certain internship programs that like really uplift these of groups that are coming from marginalized backgrounds are so integral cuz it's already a group who might be five to 10 steps behind someone else. Um, so that's where I really started like, oh, I see where equity comes in and kind of how I perceive it now as well.

Yeah, and I'm gonna be, So in this conversation, I'm gonna be really um, think that, first of all, I just wanna preface like, it makes me really

nervous to talk

this stuff

It makes me really nervous because I'm afraid that I'm going to say something wrong or something offensive or something hurtful and do it unintentionally. Um, but this whole, I love this. This, uh, definition of equity as, um, sort of like. in my mind, before it would've been like, Wait a minute. have this person who had this upbringing and they have this job, and you have this person who had this upbringing and they have the same job, but, or they want the same job.

Right? But, but this person over here did not have all of the opportunities that this person had and standing in a place. Obvious like I'm a white woman. Like I've had some more opportunities than perhaps other individuals. Um, when I hear equity, it's already like, well, the job opportunity is there, like it's equal.

Like let's just both go for it. But that's not fair. Right. That's what I love about this conversation is that to help, to help this other person get to. Same baseline as you and go for this job then that is Right. And I think that a lot of people who have had so many opportunities, um, may be a little irritated when all these other people seem to be getting, uh, help and opportunities and assistance. I think that that's where we need to talk because. The thinking just needs to be changed. The, the processing in my head, like you just did, like needs to be changed and you just did it with explaining that we're just trying to create a fair work space for everybody so that everybody has the same opportunities or help they need to get to a certain space. Does that sound, is this something that comes up, like what I just said? Is that part of the conversations that you end up having in Jane or when you're holding Yeah

absolutely And like everything you said I think just further reinforces like so much value in these types of conversation Cuz you're right It Is super scary and it can be intimidating And also at times like when we're in a different stage of our learning journey we don't always see what's actually happening on the other side of the fence And so like you said you said it really great when you mentioned that you know sometimes I might perceive the same role and think like well we both have the option to apply to like get this job And like it's just based on your skills But there's so many layers to that And for myself Um I share a lot from my own experience because I am biracial and so my father is Jamaican immigrant My mother is Italian Um and for that I am seen as racially ambiguous So I've gotten to actually walk the world with Different ways I am perceived and received from others And that's what really made me see how yes the same rules on the table but someone who perceives me this way because I'm a black woman might have a different idea of my ability to speak to you know hold up a certain expectation of performance whereas in what I'm perceived another way maybe a different race a different kind of you know I'm articulate or whatever that might be Then there's more positive and there's a question of why is there so much perception that um plays a large role in these decisions at the end So I think that was a really long way to get to my point of kind of talking about how yes there's sometimes same opportunities available There's education that's available to all of us but finances aren't available to all of us Um you have to apply for a lot of bursaries scholarships you don't know if you're gonna get in Um and all of that to say that there's all these like implicit things that are happening within each of us We make judgements every day and it's not always intentionally harmful And that's why it's so important to actually talk about these things cuz some people might not have known that I as someone who is white passing though I am biracial and though I am seen as a black woman in my community It doesn't mean I haven't seen the benefits of like my fairness and where colorism has played a large role Uh so that was a long winded way to say to kind of speak to that point But I really do think that helps to just elaborate why the way we interact with everything whether it's each other applications roles whatever that might be It all has many layers to it

so you were led to this this or drawn to this because of your own challenges or your own visions or your own perceptions of things that have occurred in your

life

Do you mind sharing any

Yeah absolutely I'm a really open book because it is such a sensitive topic and it's something that people should be wanting um should be invited into We shouldn't assume through others that like Oh well tell me about your experience as a minority Cuz you know what It is hard Um and so I appreciate you asking because truly I think that's a really great first start in any DI conversation is like do you have the capacity to have this conversation And then it's like Yeah I totally do but I put myself in this role for the reason that It's hard and it's sometimes heavy and it can be really hard for people to have these conversations Cause I know for myself um I like have worked in a few areas where being black just wasn't a very like positive thing And it's really disheartening and it starts from even the way I speak So you know I definitely have a pattern of what's called code switching And it's this idea that I have to speak a certain way in front of certain groups or communities because I know I'm gonna be perceived better that way and sometimes it's so like it's such an autopilot practice for me I don't even realize it until I'm like at the dinner table with my family and they Why do you sound like that right now like what's going on And I'm like Oh nope nope And I just have to like REIT with myself Um because there have been environments where you know I I'm actually from the East coast Uh for context I'm uh born and raised in a city outside of Toronto So we have a very big very predominant black community out there And so for me like I have a lot of African Canadian vernacular right Where you know I speak a certain way it's like a cultural thing for me And actually in Toronto a lot of our like slang or talk is Jamaican derived So it's like very connected to me and my my ancestry and my family And so sometimes when I speak like that you can see people The looks it starts with the looks you know kind of that look of judgment or like why is this person at the table having this conversation with me She doesn't sound articulate per se Or just like slight comments about you know my blackness or my identity that I'm just like Oh like wait a second And I think an example of that is like even sometimes in the way I Like I dress a very comfortable very like certain style and I remember I worked somewhere where that just was not accepted Like I wasn't conforming to a certain like visual beauty standard that I like couldn't uphold I'm very different looking in comparison to like maybe a majority group Um and so for It was definitely hard because you go in there and you it starts with the look and then it starts with the way people treat you And I think the hardest thing about these experiences is that it's not like an outward Like a very intentionally harmful practice It's like these microaggressions these little comments here about like Oh you must be like spicy because you know you're like where your background is and I'm like Elaborate on that please What do you mean by that I think I'm just spicy because that's my personality Not race related Um or just comments like that Comments on my natural hair like Can I touch your hair And I'm like At work I'm like I'm in the middle of Uh any like something here you know And uh this hasn't happened with my current experience which I'm eternally grateful for but it's just the idea that like I came with all of these stories so I could only imagine how many more stories there are in other groups with other identities So that's definitely where I see it like these little micro kind of comments or looks or feelings that you kind of sense

I don't even know what to say. I'm just sort of speechless now because I. Gosh, we, we were all raised so many ways. ways Right? And I think because maybe there just never has been really healthy conversations about multicultural or even like, I mean, I feel like we're finally starting to have them, right. Um, and. Not even multicultural, but also LGBTQ and, you know, altogether. It, it, it, First of all, it makes me sad that people suffer, Right? That this is a challenge, but I'm also grateful because it, it, it brought you here to this conversation and to a space where you can help that, um, you know, um, It's fascinating to me as a, as a a white woman, I grew up in different places where there was a lot of, um, there was actually a lot of. Mm. I was in high school, there was a lot of, uh, racism and a lot of, in the high school, a couple, well just in the area that I lived, and it was a very black and white community, and there was a lot of just all sorts of stuff like gang related. That played a really big part, not in the fact that feel like I grew up racist, but in the fact where I was like, There was so much tension, racial tension back and forth

Hmm

it was, it was, it often felt unsafe to be white.

It felt unsafe probably to f to be black, right? Like it felt unsafe for everybody in that situation. And, I guess I could say this too, too, I was, my family has a lot of racism in it. And so there's this like, and I don't really have a lot to do with my family right.

Anymore, But, but it was always in my and I can't stand it. I do not like it. But it also makes me sort of the words are in my head. Like Like there are words that, um, that just are part of the upbringing. I feel like come out of my mouth sometimes. Not as a ra, racial slur intentionally, but even just saying like, we grew up saying we're gonna sit Indian

Mmm

Right?

Yes

Stupid little stuff like that. That stuff is ingrained in

your brain from the time you're a child. I guess my challenge, my, one of my biggest fears is what else is in

Yes

And I'm doing this evaluation of what else is in there?

Am I thinking with a very open mind? Am I thinking kindly? Am I thinking, um, in ways that are gonna help other people and create opportunities where I've had opportunity? know, like, anyway, I guess I'm just blah, blah, blah, lying. But like, this is really important to me and I think that it, that I'm not the only one that feels this way.

So,

I'm just so like I personally am like very grateful for your vulnerability in saying that because that's where it starts with the idea that many of us have some form of bias of conditioned thinking of some pattern that like we need to be aware of to unlearn And the more you repress it in my opinion at least the more you repress it the more you avoid it the more Kind of festers there And you're never gonna be able to grow in that space until you actually like let that stuff come out because it's super important Because there's no way for you to know what's right or wrong if you're not trying or practicing or seeing what you can do to expand the way you know you're speaking or thinking and things like that And it speaks to even like myself like There's so many biases that I probably have that I don't even know Um and that is a practice that I I always try to kind of work through by elevating my self awareness And that's why you know I always say to people like if there's something you wanna do to get in this space the first thing is Self awareness find an activity sit with yourself and journal whatever that might be and be real Write on that paper everything you're thinking and feeling about going in and you know about yourself about your id about the identities of Others It is a scary space to be in but it is the first big step into like making this type of change Um and so that history it lives with all of us and these sayings they do like you know it's so big in like corporate environments to say like Oh let's meet up and have a powwow I'm sure you've right I am sure you've heard that before too It is such common language I've heard it in so many industries and no one is intentionally being harmful when they say it yet It's just wrong It's not the right language Right And sorry maybe that's me being a little just like it's wrong but it's

it is, but that's exactly what I'm saying. Like it makes me, I feel nervous I just don't want something to come outta my mouth. But you're right, like sitting down and doing a true evaluation of my history and of my beliefs and. Yeah, maybe just even having forgiveness for my own uh, that they're imperfect and, uh, yes.

Very good Yeah good point.

I was just gonna add that like and one of the ways I like to practice that is um I once worked somewhere where they introduced something called the diversity wheel to us And I wish I knew exactly like the origin of it but if that's something of interest like that it highlights a lot of the elements of our identity that actually expands and describes our diversity And a lot of these areas people don't even consider sometimes Like your educational background like your finances like your faith those all actually count as aspects of your diversity And so I personally I've always loved looking at this wheel and journaling cuz then I'm like sitting with myself to see like who am I as a cultural being like what's my individual story Because like you like I definitely have family members and friends that I have moved on from because I'm We do not see I die Uh I have a certain like belief uh in people in kindness and I just have to draw boundaries sometimes with folks And so doing that work with myself is hard sometimes because it does kind of um bring back some of those more painful feelings But if you are willing to learn then there's room to grow

So tell us a little bit more about the

Mm Yeah So there's like this wheel and it's written or drawn in two circles and it's this idea that there is like an internal circle which at times could be diversity We might not see and that's not necessarily the case I can't perceive All aspects of diversity But that could be things like um I wanna make sure I'm saying it in the right order but race is like a big one Like um maybe it could be gender identity gender expression maybe sex things like that would be kind of considered um in those fields And there's like this external like wheel around it which is A lot more of like the things that we might have um either grown into or like absorbed through others So that is our faith our education like all of those factors uh and that they all make up like these layers of our diversity as well And that's why if you've heard of the topic of intersectionality It's the idea that a lot of our identity intersects And so you can't just say like I have this one experience uh that makes me diverse and this is the sole reason why I experience the world this way The reality is a lot of our like aspects of the diversity wheel will intersect and impact the way we are treated and seen and like perceived in the world

I'm gonna kind of segue a little bit.

Tell us a little bit about what it is that you do with Jane

Yeah So at Jane I it So it's a growing area for us So it's currently in the stages of like learning We're like absorbing a lot of info seeing how we can grow DI as a program at Jane But what I currently do is I help to facilitate all types of conversations In di whether that's internal or external as well So for example internally I help to kind of coordinate a monthly DI meeting uh that is like a learn and chat experience because um similar to how you're feeling Stacy I always say that like We have to be accepting and vulnerable with one another to grow Um and that has to happen without judgment So sometimes we're gonna make critiques or comments that aren't right Uh and the worst thing I think we could do at times is just jump to a place of you know you're wrong without any other explanation Some Folks are in different stages of their learning journey And so the whole point of that meeting is to actually get people together to say Okay we're gonna do this together No matter what stage of your learning journey you're in we're gonna learn about this topic And it could be a theme like specific to maybe like a topic that's coming up a lot that month Maybe a theme of the month So for example for February Black History Month Uh this month we're gonna do a focus on National Day of Truth and Reconciliation which in Canada is a new indigenous holiday in Canada which is a really big deal Um and so those are just some examples but we get together once a month to kind of have these conversations Uh and so That's one part of what I do Um the other is just helping to facilitate like things like language whether that's internally how we should speak to each other to create an inclusive space how we practice inclusive language So staying away from gender binary for example So instead of saying Hey guys you know I try to say Hey everyone hey y'all whatever that might be Kind of talking to our point earlier Stacy with like those small language things Um and I also help with like externally like with the product Like what could we be thinking um is really beneficial for Jane as an inclusive product Um are there language changes we could consider Other features we could grow One example of that is last year we released the pronouns feature and that was a super big deal It was one of my favorite things to work on I was so happy to be a part of that Um and so that's a lot of like what my work looks like on the inside as well Uh and then the last thing is just really getting everyone on board with like what we're doing So we're looking to like really grow this area in Jane and do that by like you know assessing our own Like how are we as a company like um treating each other treating everyone in terms of inclusion and I've always said I'm so grateful for how inclusive the Jane team is but being more out loud about it like what do we need to call out for Like is do we need to be more inclusive in more ways and things like that So that's kind of where where I step in and I hope as well

I think it's a like perpetual of, um, exactly that. Like, what's next? Where do, where do we need to focus next? What can we help next? I love the product, I love the, the pronouns. Um, we also, as practitioners have to consider all of these as well. You know, we have, we have patients who are completely.

Everybody

I have no better way to say it, but just

everybody

you know, And so we always need to be able to, with the software, like having that

on the

Hmm

is like, it's sort of like, you know, your first impression and so you're allowing people to feel safe from the very beginning with that

Yes exactly

Can you talk a little bit about

Mm-hmm

Can you talk a little bit about creating a safe space? Because what you, what I just heard when you were telling me about what it is that you're Jane is that you're creating a safe space for these right? Because sometimes you, you might have something occur with a, with a coworker. but to say something about it, how it it came across to you or be vulnerable in that or you know, say, Hey, you just hurt me. And by the way, that was a racial slang slang that you just, and that's not okay. Sometimes that can create even more tension in

the workplace

Right. So having a safe space. Can you talk

about that that a,

Yeah Absolutely And you When it comes to a work environment um the way I describe myself in DI overall is I actually say like imagine di as a ship Like you can think of me as the captain like I'm steering the wheel and maybe I'm totally talking to old school of a ship But even though I'm steering the wheel and I'm leading these conversations it takes a whole team to keep a ship afloat Everyone has a responsibility to create a safe space So I just have maybe more knowledge I say in like sharing some of how like these things work or how we could create more inclusivity And why I mention all of that is because creating a safe space starts with everyone So for me the reason I actually have built this sense of trust environment is honestly because of how much Allie and Trevor are passionate about this space as well

I someone myself being a minority I've never seen that before and so it was really really encouraging to see two co CEOs who are passionate about their people Get excited to hear about people talking about these uncomfortable conversations like excited in the way that like they want people to grow like this And that's where it starts there as well too So it starts with everyone especially those with the most power If there's anyone around you in this environment that has power or authority or whatever that might be it takes them saying I'm into this like I wanna hear this and learn too And then others start to really follow They start to see that and they start to learn through that influence And so that's one part of creating that safety because it starts with those folks And if they're not in everyone else is gonna have a hard time feeling safe No one's gonna really feel like they can trust anyone or share their thoughts openly So I'm really grateful we have that team dynamic Um and then when it comes to my conversations you brought up a great example Like you know it like what if something happens at work or even in my own personal life this happens all the time It's truly coming from a place of um I like to I'm very passionate about education and so if you want someone to learn something and you have the capacity teach them in that moment or find someone who can and that someone could be me So for example if someone uses language that maybe isn't the most inclusive I'll just call in I'll call them you know I'll speak to them one on one and just say Hey I noticed you said this I just wanted you to know a little bit of the history of it and why it's not a word I would use How are you feeling about that Do you wanna like learn more Do you have questions like what's going on And that is something that I step into because I don't think others necessarily should when they're hurt

It's all based on really nonviolent, really kind, open-hearted communication. when you are hurt in a moment, you should not be talking, speaking from that space. Um, okay. To say, I'm not okay with what you just said, but not Okay. To continue to have a conversation

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm Yeah Especially like it's it's really important that you feel safe in sharing that So I I think it's um I like to say like our emotions are still a valuable reaction so anger frustration and so there's I there's nothing wrong with feeling those feelings like to anyone who's hearing this it's if you feel hurt you are hurt and that's okay And that it's a question though of do I have the capacity as someone who's hurt To have this conversation or do I even want to educate someone right now Cause I feel hurt and I don't want to have to do that That's more of my emotional energy that I'm not ready to commit right now So I act as kind of like that person who can help carry that because sometimes these conversations can be really hard

, and since you have a clinical background, that's you're perfect for right? Like, probably also cracks open the door to having an understanding. that person has the capacity to self

evaluate and

be like, Oh, why do I want to hurt Or I was just ignorant in that you know? And now I'm educated and I have a choice. But, um, I love the fact, I really, on the podcast I've talked a lot about the wounded healer archetype and how we are um, even just as healthcare providers, Um, often here to help the people who hurt

people

Yes

And, um, that is very, very important. And often as, um, people who have been hurt, we tend to attract those people into our space and so they will show up in your and to have the capacity to, and the maturity to have worked through your own stuff, to be able to sit with who is really hurting other people because they

hurt

That is

pinnacle for right

right? a lot of.

Exactly

Yeah. Tell me a little bit about how we can bring this into our

Are there some things to think about when we are trying to create a really inclusive, safe space for our patients? Where should we put our

energy

That's a good question And so it kind of ties back to my point earlier that I think it always starts with self If you can't see yourself as a cultural being and you can't necessarily understand the way the world perceives you and how that benefits you or harms you then it's hard to perceive that in others as well Um and so it really does start with the self and you In um counseling courses This is a really big practice of like being reflective Uh it's super important because it is hard to help people and to be genuine and empathetic when you're kind of closed off yourself when you're not doing the deep deep work within yourself but then expecting someone else to or to easily understand someone else's story So really the first step is starting with your Like sitting with your story and saying Okay how has the world favored me and how has the world isolated me And then empathizing with that And so second that to that would be practicing that empathy whether that's through practicing difficult conversations looking up resources however you might learn best But in di The biggest tool is always gonna be empathy because you cannot say that you've had the same experience as someone else all the time And even when we have similar experiences sometimes there's still some differences So empathy is that driving factors of practitioner to say people have different stories and different resistances maybe to even coming into your practice you know as a black woman Being mistreated is a very common thing And so we're often like we wait too long to go get care because we just know we're gonna be seen or treated differently Uh and so when you think of something like that recognizing that when uh a black woman for example or person of color walks in thinking like they might have taken extra steps to even get here And that might have taken some personal courage maybe some like other resources whatever that might be And just recognizing you know how you can be inviting to them which is through things like your language So you're welcome like you know like getting to know them and like getting connected with your your clients And so I would say that's like a really good starting point

And I think that, mean, acupuncturists, we usually spend, not all of us, but usually like in that first visit is like 75 to of just

talking right

Like in depth interview, which gives the opportunity for connection way. Is there anything that we need to consider, like in our office space, is there anything else that we're missing , that would really help create a safer space or better

communication

that's actually a really good question because I think this your space matters like how you decorate it matters right Uh like if I was to go into practice for example and let's say there's like tons of images um of maybe certain like I'm trying to think like certain I'm trying to think of like a good example like maybe a certain person or group of people Let's say for example like you're a counselor and there's like tons of white men on the the wall like these white educators which is not a bad thing to say but recognizing how I as a black woman would come in that space See my counselors a black man uh sorry as a white man and white photos all around that could feel overwhelming for I could be building my own biases I could be feeling a little bit more you know like maybe this isn't the space for me And ironically the space around you matters so much And so um that's not to say that you shouldn't put photos up and things like that but rather like recognize how the types of photos you put up the decor you put out there actually has a really Part of your space's story and how people are gonna perceive that space when they walk in Uh and so I know we're not necessarily talking about counseling in here but I just thought of that example from like other experiences I've heard as well

No, I think it's, it's a, it's a very fair. It's very fair because when you walk in, oftentimes to like Western

Mm-hmm

for example, like I just had to have physical therapy on my wrist for a while because I broke it. And they have all the pictures of all the Right. And I live in a very white forward community.

So it's almost like there's only like three of 20 people that are not white. And. That is a, you're right. That's perhaps not the image that you putting

up there

right?

Yeah and it's it sounds like in your case too it's it's like that question of how do we diversify our own community then as well too so that the pictures we get to put up are these like Really like different types of people And so I appreciate you saying that cuz it is true It's like you know at what type of people are walking through the door and how might they perceive that and do they feel like they could share with you like these more sensitive details Like yeah you know I do belong to the LGBTQ plus community or whatever that might be So It's something I learned recently in my undergrad and so I was shocked because I didn't really think of that ever until it came up in conversation Uh and I was like That's true Like what I see matters

Well, yeah, well, it's almost like, you know, um, so enmeshed in it that you don't even realize, like, Oh wait, and this is why I'm always nervous because I'm always like, Gosh, what do I not know? And that would've been something that, I mean, I can see on walls of every single doctor's office, like, or practice of all of

them

And it doesn't, it's not even necessary. Is

really that necessary? That's a fascinating point, is there some way, um, something on the website or something that you are, that you are a friendly, like you want all cultures to come see you?

You wanna make sure that people know somehow that they're going to be safe coming to your office,

Yeah

that's such a good question cause I would actually put some form of welcome on my online booking site So I would want that information somewhere whether it's like in my personal website like my about area or in Jane in your online booking site You can put like a message at the top and if that's what you're using as your website I would put it there And What I would do is just say like you know um at my practice like I'm a practice who is actively looking to create an inclusive welcoming environment who is continuing to grow in this space to provide you with like your diverse care needs and something like that Acts as a green flag and other language things like for example we've had these conversations at Janesville too like how important the pronouns feature is for signaling to others Like if I have pronouns I'm saying like I recognize your diversity that you might come in With gender identity uh that maybe you didn't know you could feel safe enough to share with me or um sexual orientation that you didn't know you could share with me And so features like this act as like green flakes as well And thinking about the language staying away from things like these gender binaries or recognizing how Language has such a big impact So what you say really can influence someone's ability to perceive how inclusive you are as a practice So that's I would just put it right out there That's what I would do

Just say it. Just say it.

I think just again remembering like how you introduce yourself to someone as well Just like being warm you know making people feel like they can lean on you or like trust you in your practice Um and that's just like Saying like Hey tell me your story Like whatever that might be as you're going through your like initial appointments and things like that So yeah just like being super warm which you are and I know everyone means to be as well And so just keeping that like real connection there is super important

Do you have resources for practitioners?

So this one is a bit it's such a large area that you can like look at so many areas and one thing I always like to encourage people is like start with something you wanna learn more about Cuz it's a big pot of Content And so if you try to dive right into the topic it's you're gone too far Start with one thing you wanna learn about Is that like racism in your local area or is there an aspect of identity you wanna explore Um and then from there see what type of I like to say check your local like colleges and universities A lot of the time they might be offering free programs either online or in person So give a quick Google go ahead and search You know free courses on indigenous communities like see if any of those are available in your area Uh and that's a really great way to start getting accessible coursework Um and so that's one resource that you could look into some more specific ones Um especially cuz we were talking a lot about race today One that I really like is how to be an anti-racist It's a novel It's a really great book Uh have you gotten to read it

No. No, but I've heard of it, so that's, that's good. It's on my, it's

Yes And it's one that our team has read as well too and it's one that I'd recommend is a great starting point um into that conversation YouTube I know it's like I know it sounds silly to say but truly I have had so much growth because of YouTube because the ability to just search a topic and expand my knowledge on it and so useful and specifically I listen to a lot of TED Talk And the reason I do that is because if you are someone who's looking to learn more this is a great way to drive your empathy because a lot of these talks are talking through many dimensions of di They're talking about their personal experience their studies like what the stats are saying but then there's also those like Their story behind all of it That's super important to understand And so I would highly recommend TED Talks dive into those and expand There's so many different topics not only race identity things like unconscious bias and things like that So definitely recommend resources like that And the last one that I really like as like a really easy starting point is signing up for what's called the Better Allies Newsletter Uh Better Allies This is great Great place Um it's uh like a newsletter that gets sent to you every week with like five actions that you can commit to Uh and it explores different things and it gives you tons of free resources which is super cool Um so I highly recommend signing up for better Allies Great topics to explore in there

And I'll put all in the show notes for you guys so can access all of this information. I love the idea of TEDx. I love and I have, I mean, I will just go through TEDx when I'm I love of the learning and the eye opening experiences TEDx. So that was, That was a great one.

I would, and I wouldn't have go there. I don't know why. So thank you for that. you. So one last thing and and I, this is a little bit That's um, but. This podcast is dedicated to practitioners who are either sort of just coming out of school and starting a practice, um, or practitioners who are, who have worked for somebody and then are gonna go and start their own practice.

But there's just more of like this transition challenge. And I know that a large amount of us coming out of school have imposter so I'm wondering if Kiki Toth has ever had imposter

Yes all the time it It is hard You especially now being in in this seat where I'm you know speaking about di I have fought for this for so long that when I got it I was like stunted I was like I couldn't believe it was this easy to do this at chain And it was truly a moment of like gratitude but then also this feeling of like but what if I'm not the right person or maybe I'm doing the wrong thing or maybe I'm gonna take us like you know the wrong way and The thing with imposter syndrome is that it's you talking to you people around you have chosen you have brought this on to you or you are the person kind of building your own practice and so it's your self talk You have to sit with yourself and say No I worked hard I did the studying I did the practicing I know I'm good at this I maybe it'll take time to be an expert at this but I'm good at this and I belong here because I did the work And that's something that I know I always remind myself and especially if you're someone Is marginalized Like it is tricky You often feel out of place you're looking at a table and you're like I'm the odd man out And that feels even more isolating So it's really just sitting with yourself to remind yourself that you are worthy and you deserve to be here otherwise you wouldn't be there So that's that's really what I've worked through with my imposter syndrome

Thank you so much for sharing that. That was like probably my most that.

that

It was. Well because of course you gave an action step, right? Like a true counselor, but, But too like But it is too, like my eyes are watering cuz I'm like, yes, that's exactly it. So that's so it.

And we all experience it and it's just a matter of just keep going, keep moving forward. how to talk to yourself. Kinder, don't compare

Yes

Yep

Keep going. Keep going and keep growing.

I love that

is there anything else that you'd like to share with the listeners before we

I think the last thing is that for those who might feel scared or even intimidated by the amount of learning that is in this area be brave and take the step That's the best advice I could give You're gonna get some things wrong and that's okay Hold yourself accountable to those wrongs Call yourself out when those moments happen and grow from them You'll do great things That's all I wanna say

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I think that's so fair too because no matter. If you're not doing things incorrectly, if you're not making mistakes, then you're not growing and you're not trying. Right? Like, right. Just, and I'm in now too. I'm like, Okay, cool. Like, I'm gonna go face all of my stories and all of my backup, my background, and all of my crappy epigenetics and, and, uh, move forward

Absolutely.

so, Thank you so much for coming on Kiki.

Thanks to Jane for, uh, sponsoring this, uh, podcast. I truly appreciate it. It's been a complete joy to have you with

you so much. It's been so good being here and so nice to talk to you today, Stacy.

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Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in your medical practice starts with YOU.

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Kiki Toth, Product and DEI Specialist at Jane

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