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A Scalable Solution to B2B Funnel Tracking - Charlie Saunders
Episode 19 • 11th February 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
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Every B2B company has a funnel tracking process. And quite often, that process is seriously limited or broken.

Leads get lost, data is inaccurate, and businesses struggle to produce insights and accurate reporting.

I've seen this first hand, and so has this week's guest - Charlie Saunders. We've both spent years as consultants fixing broken funnels.

In this episode, we talk about the many reasons funnel tracking goes wrong and dive deep into the architecture of the scalable solution Charlie's team has developed.

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About Today's Guest

Charlie Saunders is co-founder and the Chief Revenue & Operations Officer at CS2, where he builds Revenue Growth Architecture for growth-stage B2B tech companies that powers efficient and predictable revenue growth.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/charliesaunders/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:35] - Why funnel tracking matters
  • [05:05] - How funnel metrics and attribution interact
  • [08:21] - Key funnel metrics
  • [10:18] - Accuracy vs. perfection in funnel tracking
  • [14:06] - Why we can’t rely just on a Lead Status field
  • [19:03] - Using a Salesforce custom object for funnel tracking
  • [20:23] - Explanation of using a lifecycle campaign to bridge leads and contacts
  • [21:01] - Should everyone start with a custom object?
  • [26:55] - Why a custom object doesn’t need to be that intensive to implement
  • [29:34] - Custom object impact on sales process and UX
  • [33:25] - Tipping point = the initiation of the sales process
  • [34:58] - Multiple tipping point types
  • [36:14] - Different stages in the pre-pipeline section of the funnel
  • [39:28] - Build vs. buy when considering a custom object solution
  • [40:38] - You need a strong foundation for any funnel tracking to work
  • [42:56] - Deeper discussion on attribution
  • [45:47] - Significance of the the "tipping point" touch

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

You're listening to RevOps FM with Justin Norris.

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If you work in a go to market role, the

funnel is a constant thing in your life,

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whether it's a simple funnel, a waterfall,

or it's flipped, or it's bow tied, we have

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this constant need to create some sort of

mental model around our revenue process,

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and of course that's for good reason.

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But the problem I've seen is that so

much oxygen gets sucked up talking about

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what type of funnel we should have.

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That there's much less thought about how

that funnel actually gets operationalized.

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How do we build it?

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How do we make it robust and scalable?

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How do we make sure the data is accurate?

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All that kind of stuff.

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And it's in those little areas where

all the problems actually tend to begin.

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I've had a bit of an obsession with

funnel tracking throughout my career,

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and when I spoke to my friend Charlie

Saunders about this, I quickly

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realized he's been on the same journey.

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If you don't know Charlie, he is a

top shelf revenue operator, the COO

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and co founder of CS2, which is a

marketing and RevOps consultancy, and

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also co host of the Revenue Growth

Architects podcast, which is a great

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show that you should listen to.

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And he and his team have built

some really cool solutions in this

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area, so I wanted to invite him on

the show for a special deep dive.

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Into all things FunnelOps, Charlie,

really glad to have you here.

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Charlie Saunders: Thanks for having me.

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I'm excited to have this conversation.

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Justin Norris: Yeah, I know we both

sort of nerded out about this, so

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it's about time we just sort of lay

everything out on paper about the funnel.

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I mean, let's start big picture,

kind of first principles.

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From your point of

view, why do we do this?

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Why is it so critical that we

have this process in place?

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Yeah.

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So

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Charlie Saunders: first off where

we're coming from is funnel is

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the most important area of your

architecture, a B2B SaaS company

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needs everything centers around it.

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And I categorize it into three reasons.

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The first one is all around

trying to get insight.

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So with the funnel, you're obviously

tracking your buying stages.

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You're seeing where buyers are coming

from and you're capturing the demand.

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You're looking at the conversion

rates and velocity through all of

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those buying stages, all the way

through to pipeline and revenue.

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So if you're not tracking that

stuff, then you don't, you've got

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a huge insight gap into what's

happening in your organization.

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You don't know where's

pipeline coming from.

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You don't know, well, there's

the highest converting pipeline.

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You don't know where the different

channels are going to be having the

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best velocity through the funnel.

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And you're really just going

to not be able to make.

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As many good business decisions

about where to invest and where

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to try and improve your business.

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So the first one is all around insights

and that's the tracking side of it.

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And then also related to the tracking

side, more practically around how

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your internal teams are working.

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If you don't have a well organized process

for moving buyers through these final

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stages, and maybe it's worth kind of

articulating what those stages might be.

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We call them sales ready, moving

into a sales working stage.

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We don't like to use acronyms at CST.

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We like to just use words.

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So there may be moving into a

meeting book stage, pipeline

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stage, true kind of pipeline,

forecasted pipeline and revenue one.

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And if you don't have a well architected

process, then your team doesn't know

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what to do at each of those stages,

which will then drive efficiencies

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throughout all of those stages,

like how sales even follows up.

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On an MQL or a sales ready, what

should sales be doing to try and

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then progress towards pipeline?

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Like what activities they need

to do to connect with the buyer

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to get a meeting in the calendar.

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So the funnel is all about building

out that process that you can repeat

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and have a good buyer experience

through all of those steps.

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And that last piece there around the

buyer experience is third thing that

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we really like to call out because.

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If you don't have this architected

well, then you are not only limiting

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your company because you're not going

to be able to have an efficient revenue

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generating engine, but you're also

impacting the experience of your buyers.

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Right?

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Like how many companies out there.

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Yeah.

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You fill out a demo request

and it takes like five days

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for them to get back to you.

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The reason that probably is because

one, they've got bad process around that

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particular situation, but also they're

probably not tracking what is happening.

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Like no one knows this is happening.

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Cause everyone knew that was happening.

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They'd probably go and fix it.

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They don't have that funnel

data to show, Oh, okay.

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Our conversion rate from

cells ready to working.

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is super low and it's taking five days

for sales to progress those stages,

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then we should go and fix that.

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And that happens at every single stage.

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Each stage has an operational action

and that's something a person needs

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to perform to help move forward.

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And if you don't have that well

built out, you're not tracking

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that, then you can't improve it.

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So it's really hard to

improve your sales process.

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It's really difficult to

improve what you're doing from

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a marketing point of view.

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And you're just left with that big

insight gap and just a really inefficient

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way to turn buyers into revenue.

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Justin Norris: When we talk

about the insights piece of

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that, to me there's two aspects.

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There's the stages of the funnel, sort

of like stages of a conveyor belt, if

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you like, like in an assembly process,

and people are Moving through them and

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then there's an aspect of attribution

or like what were the marketing or sales

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or whatever actions that is causing

somebody to move from stage to stage

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and you sort of alluded to both of them.

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You could have a funnel without

attribution involved just to say we have

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so many leads so many opportunities so

much close one revenue without that there.

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But to you it seems that

is integral to the process.

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Can you talk a little

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Charlie Saunders: bit about that?

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Definitely.

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Building funnels for years.

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If I ever built funnel tracking and showed

it to a CMO and was like, this is how

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many leads you got, this is how many went

to work, and this is how many went to

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meetings, the next question is going to

be, wait, but where did they come from?

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Was this an event?

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Was it a demo request?

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Was it You know, through some of our

paid efforts, was it an outbound funnel?

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Maybe they do PLG.

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Was this kind of a PLG

sales assisted funnel?

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This is a customer funnel.

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Was this a partner deal?

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Everyone cares about that, right?

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Just seeing the volume

and conversion rates.

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In a silo without knowing what

that tipping point was, is missing

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a huge piece of the picture.

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So when we think about it, I just

mentioned the phrase that we use,

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tipping point, we like to look at

what was that tipping point that

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led to the sales conversation.

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So within that model, we're looking

at, it's a last touch model, but not a

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last touch for opportunity, last touch

before the initial sales conversation.

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So we call that stage sales ready.

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And the reason why we call

that stage sales ready.

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It's because it's more than just an MQL.

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You know, it can be, like I mentioned,

all of those other sources that can

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then lead to sales needing to engage.

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So it could be, like I said,

outbound funnel, partner deal.

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It could be customer expansion.

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Like some of our clients have

the concept of a customer.

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It could be any of those

or EQR, like I mentioned.

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So we want to be able to look

at each of those tipping points.

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And then some of the tipping points

have further granularity that you need.

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Right.

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So like it's not.

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Good enough to just say, this is

like a marketing inbound funnel.

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You want to know what the

way that we look about it is.

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It's kind of the where, what scenario,

like where did they come from?

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And what did they do from

a marketing perspective?

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So where they came from might be

a paid ad and what they did might

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be a demo quest, for example.

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So you want to capture those data points.

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So then you can really start to

understand, okay, well, I'm looking

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at conversion rates through my funnel.

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You know, let's take an example

where content syndication.

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Sales ready to pipeline might be like 0.

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3%, but maybe an event or your demo

request is, you know, at 80 percent

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conversion rate, there might be a dramatic

example between sales ready to pipeline.

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And that is really, what's going to

help you make better decisions, right?

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More than just the volume through the

funnel, the volume through the funnel

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can help you optimize your sales process

probably, but not the marketing side.

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You need to know more data.

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Um, I know we're going to talk about.

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Some of the downsides to using this

approach, because it is just looking at

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just one touch point and versus multi

touch attribution, but we can obviously go

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through that later, but it's still a model

to help you improve what you're doing

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from a marketing and sales perspective.

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Justin Norris: you touched on metrics,

you know, you build the funnel and

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you lay out the metrics, which is kind

of the big reveal, the thing that the

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CMO or the CRO actually cares about.

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What are the key things that you think

people need to look at within the

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Charlie Saunders: funnel?

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we've already covered.

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Looking at the source

of that tipping point.

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But then there's three primary

metrics types that I would categorize.

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There's volume data, which can also

include, you know, pipeline, how many

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at each stage, how much pipeline.

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Then there's conversion data, what's

the conversion rate between stages.

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And there's velocity, so how quickly

are they moving through the stages.

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So that's really the three major

types of reporting that you're going

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to be building with final data.

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And then from that point.

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You want to then build out your

analytics framework to be able to

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give each audience the right data.

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We go super deep on this, but generally we

have a few different types of dashboards,

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which can help different teams.

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There's like the planning dashboard,

which might give you a rolling 12 month

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view of conversion rates that could

help you do your revenue planning.

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You would have an optimization dashboard.

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This one, you could go super deep.

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It's like all of the different conversion

points, looking at different channels,

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looking at different offers, looking

at kind of sales, follow up time, even

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rep conversion rates, everything that

could help you find a piece of insight

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to help you improve the efficiency.

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Of your funnel, then there's

the goal tracking dashboard.

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Once you've built your revenue

plan, then you want to see, okay,

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we need this many cells ready.

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This is how much pipeline we need.

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Are we on track?

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So you'd be looking at that in kind of

meters and are we hitting the goals?

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And the last one is all around is

like pure campaign performance.

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It's like a marketing dashboard where

you can dig into all of the channels and

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campaigns and look at the final data.

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So the three things, the volume conversion

and velocity by campaign, by channel,

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by all of the marketing activities.

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Everything

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Justin Norris: you've just

said makes perfect sense.

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Generally, all the smart people I speak

to seem to agree on those metrics.

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The challenge I find is when, it's like

the devil's in the details on the funnel.

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So, when you start to take messy,

complicated reality and run it

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through those pipes, There's all

sorts of things that can go wrong.

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I don't know if you remember the thing in

Marketo where you build your funnel, you

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set up your stages and you the modeler.

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The modeler.

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Thank you.

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Yeah, it's been a little while since

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Charlie Saunders: I built one.

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It's been ages since we've done that.

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Justin Norris: So many products try to

solve this in these kind of ways that

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are just a little bit janky that don't

work because with the modeler you can

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end up with this like crazy spaghetti.

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I'm sure you've seen one of these

things that like just give you

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nightmares to look at it where

it's got all the strands connected

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together in all these different ways.

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All these detours and this is where

things can get really hard because

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either you're like excluding data and

just having a really narrow view or

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all these funnels when you scratch

beneath the surface, say, at least

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traditional ways of building them.

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They have a lot of limitations.

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How have you struggled with that?

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I guess over the years if you have.

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Charlie Saunders: I mean there's

a few things I'll call out first.

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There's that quote by George Box that

all models are wrong but some are useful.

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So this is definitely not

trying to be a hundred percent

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representation of reality, right?

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That's why it's a data model and not.

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Literally a representation of reality.

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The other is there is definitely a

difference between the buyer's journey

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and what this is really solving

for, which is the sales process.

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So a buyer, obviously throughout the

sales process, they're looking at,

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even just from a content point of view,

they're probably looking at like what

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would people would consider like a top

of funnel content, bottom of funnel

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content that are kind of engaging

in all of this untrackable activity.

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There's all of these just touch points.

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You need a different attribution

method to be able to understand

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and analyze their touch points.

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That's where multi touch

attribution comes in.

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But for the funnel, what we're really

looking for is what is capturing that

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demand and then looking at the progression

of that demand through the sales process.

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So that's why we're looking

at sales ready to working, to

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meeting, to pipeline, to close one.

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The sales process.

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Does work in those stages.

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It doesn't mean that everyone

goes through those stages linearly

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and never can kind of go back.

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And that's where really thinking about

the data model for how you're actually

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tracking this is important because we're

going to get to this, but so you're just

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adding date stamps to your leads and

contacts to go, okay, when they hit these

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stages, we're adding these dates now.

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But then, like you said, the

buying process could be messy.

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They could drop out of the funnel.

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They're not be interested, not

get back to the salesperson.

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Then they might.

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again, or they might come through a

different source like a partner, or you

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might have a product led strategies.

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They might kind of sign

up for your product.

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So very messy.

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If you're then just tracking all

of that data on lead and contact,

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you're just overwriting that

previous journey through that funnel.

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So you lose all of that data.

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But if you're, we'll get to this

maybe later, if you're tracking more

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of an advanced data model or rather

custom object, you can track each

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of those journeys independently.

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And that you see and

kind of retain that data.

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So I know kind of we're getting into

the bit of the technical there, but when

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you're trying to build out this model,

that is important to think about because

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of the cyclical nature of the buying

process, the ways that people aren't going

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to be following this process perfectly.

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So you do need to think about how you're

capturing that data and making sure that

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you do have as good a representation of

their buying process as possible without.

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I'm thinking you need to have a perfect

representation of, because if we strive

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for perfection in marketing and revenue

ops, you're going to be disappointed.

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Every

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Justin Norris: time.

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You've teased a little bit, say a more

ideal solution is, and I know that we

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agree broadly speaking on the perspective

of what that ideal solution looks like,

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but I think it's worthwhile to step

through a little bit, like what are some

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of the common ways of doing this and

where do they break down and, and some of

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the pitfalls that each of us have seen.

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and I think the most straight, let's call

it the most basic, is like, sort of what

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the out of the box method is in most CRMs,

is you have some kind of lead status.

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So you have a status.

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It kind of does the job

as a pick list, right?

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It moves you through.

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It's missing a lot of the resolution,

but from your point of view.

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Why can't we just have a status,

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Charlie Saunders: Or why can't

we have the marketer modeler?

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So with the leading contact status,

the way that we build it and in any

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method, you're still going to use that.

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It's kind of the default field.

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The sales knows where it is.

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They know what it means in most

cases, you want it to be the

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representation of where that person

is in the buying stages, right?

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But if you only have that, you know, CMO

says, how many meetings did we book in Q1?

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How are you going to report on that?

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Obviously you probably use activity

reports, you know, take away that.

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But like, if you're just going to

look at your funnel data and do that

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status, it's not capturing the volume.

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It's just showing you how many people

are in that status at that time.

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So then what people did is they

would start adding date stamps

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to the leads and contacts.

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Even when we were building, you know,

Marquette and modelers back in the day,

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you were still your smart campaigns, like,

you know, you move them in the stage,

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but also updated date stamp that would

be represented in Salesforce, right?

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Especially as people started to

realize kind of the limitations

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of Marquette reporting and.

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Also, the fact that the reporting

generally, even back then, and

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probably still now, Salesforce

is still a good place to have

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like a lot of your reporting.

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I know a lot of our clients are moving

to BI, and this is a bit of a tangent,

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but there's still a time and place to

having your Salesforce data right, and

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be able to report on in Salesforce,

particularly for some operational

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aspects, even if you do have a really

strong BI team and BI strategy.

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But anyway, back to the original

point, adding date stamps to the lead

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and contact was good, and we've done

that loads of times over the years.

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And it can get you some data, but you

end up seeing a lot of these issues.

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One is just the way the Salesforce

operates, which is you have leads and

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contacts, so you've got, you know, a

lead goes through some stages, gets to.

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We'd convert it into a contact.

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Now it's a contact.

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You're trying to get a full funnel view.

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You've got to create a lead report and

a contact report makes volume conversion

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velocity data, like super hard to get.

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So then people would be like,

okay, well, I can't look at

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conversion rates very well.

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Particularly when a lead could turn

into a contact, not reach the end of

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the funnel, get recycled as a contact

and then re MQL as a contact, right?

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So you could have a lot of

issues around reporting.

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So then you would pull that data

into Excel, try and combine it all

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together to do your full funnel

volume conversion velocity reporting.

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And then the other big issue with when

someone does get recycled and then

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MQLs again, you have to overwrite the

last, you might have an original MQL

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date and a last MQL date, but you're

going to overwrite the last MQL date.

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So if they MQL twice, maybe you've

retained the data, but if they

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MQL three times, four times, five

times, now you've lost it, right?

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:

And yes, you can have a counter to

count how many times they've done it.

346

:

But you don't really have a stored

data set, which is showing you every

347

:

progression through the funnel, where

they ended and when they started

348

:

again, and all the data stamps.

349

:

So the lead and contact model is kind of

inherently flawed through those issues.

350

:

So then what people started to do is.

351

:

That's kind of like this hacky way of

doing it, where you kind of add everyone

352

:

to a Salesforce campaign and yeah, use

formulas to then get everyone in there

353

:

and then use the formulas to combine

the leads and contacts or there's

354

:

people would then just start to go

fully into BI to join the data tables.

355

:

Get up the data and data warehouse

and use BI, but a lot of, uh,

356

:

particularly the BI issue has come

back to my issue with that Salesforce.

357

:

I know people love this distributed true

narrative, or they don't want CRM to

358

:

be the source of truth, but you really

do need an ability to build a report in

359

:

Salesforce that matches your reporting.

360

:

Like, I don't know how many times

I've had it where client is like full

361

:

in, fully into BI, they've got all of

their reporting infrastructure there.

362

:

Yeah.

363

:

But then their sales team or

even the marketing team building

364

:

some reports in Salesforce.

365

:

Now everyone's got different numbers

because there's all of this data

366

:

manipulation outside of Salesforce.

367

:

Might be an enablement thing, but

our point of view is that you want

368

:

your data to be correct and right in

Salesforce so you can report on it.

369

:

And then just sync that table

direct and use that MBI for

370

:

funnel data without any additional

manipulation outside of Salesforce.

371

:

So that brings us to kind of the last

solution using a Salesforce custom

372

:

object to track all of the funnel data.

373

:

You can create a record every time

someone repeat journeys through

374

:

the funnel, getting rid of the

issues around overwriting data.

375

:

You got one report type in Salesforce.

376

:

You sync that data table direct into

BI, so you have the report you see in

377

:

BI is exactly the same as the report you

see in Salesforce, and it is a pretty,

378

:

compared to the BI solution, bit less to

maintain if you built it the right way

379

:

in Salesforce versus working with kind

of complex data teams and people who

380

:

don't really understand marketing data.

381

:

Who might be running your

data warehouse in isolation.

382

:

So when I said a lot there, that's

the major ways people have approached

383

:

this and the one that we would

recommend is the custom object.

384

:

Justin Norris: We'll dive into some

depth in the custom object but just a few

385

:

things that come to mind for me listening

because you articulated very well all the

386

:

kind of attempts at solving this problem.

387

:

I think you hit on pretty

much every single one that

388

:

I am aware of or have tried.

389

:

And it's funny because you can almost

see, like, two or three years there

390

:

of, like, a team inching their way

forward, sort of the evolution of a

391

:

process, like, let's do this, ah, it's

not working, let's just add another

392

:

set of date stamps, like, oops, doesn't

work in that way, like, okay, well,

393

:

we'll put this other thing on top of it.

394

:

And I know that you mentioned it

being hacky, and I agree with this,

395

:

but honestly, the default way, short

of a custom object that I've used

396

:

historically, is the campaign method,

which at least brings leads and contacts

397

:

together natively, just for the benefit

of anyone listening who didn't fully

398

:

grasp it, like having a single Campaign

called life cycle or whatever that

399

:

you add everyone to and you can use

formulas to whether it's leader contact,

400

:

you bring it all into one place.

401

:

So now at least you have a unified

data set and in that case, typically we

402

:

would start out with saying we're only

going to track the first time through.

403

:

So that's, you know, a way of addressing

those potential limitations and say,

404

:

we're just going to narrow the scope.

405

:

And sometimes that works for people.

406

:

And so the question that leads me to is

From your point of view, do you just start

407

:

off everybody now with the custom object?

408

:

Because for me, back when I was

on the agency side, not everybody

409

:

was ready to start there.

410

:

It was a more expensive solution.

411

:

It was a more complicated solution.

412

:

So maybe this like V1, admitting

that it's lower fidelity, and

413

:

then maybe you can graduate.

414

:

We also didn't have a custom

object solution as productized

415

:

as I think that you now have it.

416

:

Where do you now feel like we made it

so easy to go this other route there's

417

:

really no point building a tiny house

and building a bigger house you might as

418

:

well just build the house that you want

419

:

Charlie Saunders: and live in it.

420

:

So really good question i wrestle

with it a lot because i agree

421

:

the campaign option it can work

obviously one of the big limitations

422

:

is that the repeat journey side.

423

:

Like you said, like if you're just

tracking the first journey and maybe

424

:

you're a company that doesn't have that

situation where people are dropping out

425

:

the funnel a lot and you need to retain

every journey, I definitely never want

426

:

to be the guy that's like, everyone

needs our solution kind of thing,

427

:

you know, that would be probably not.

428

:

Just the right way to act and have

the right perspective on that.

429

:

What I will say though, is the really

hard part about funnel data is that

430

:

what often happens is in the quest to

not overcomplicate things too early,

431

:

we build these lesser solutions, right?

432

:

And we use them for a while and they work.

433

:

And, and, and where I'm coming from as

well is that we've, we only work with

434

:

B2B SaaS companies going through kind

of like their rapid growth stages.

435

:

So In our context, you know, you've

got maybe your first round of funding

436

:

or your series a, and you still think

you're like wanting to be scrappy

437

:

and you don't want to build like

too sophisticated of a solution.

438

:

You don't have a CMO yet, you know,

you've got a scrappy marketing

439

:

team, maybe one mops person,

you maybe don't have the skills.

440

:

So what happens is you build this kind

of hodgepodge kind of okay ish version.

441

:

And then what happens is the

company starts to accelerate

442

:

their growth, which is great.

443

:

I mean, you know, you've been able

to grow without this, which is fine.

444

:

But then what happens is maybe CMO comes

in, CRO comes in, they start asking some

445

:

more sophisticated questions from the data

and they're not able to get those answers.

446

:

So now you have kind of more

of the business need to move to

447

:

a more sophisticated solution.

448

:

But the problem with funnel tracking is

any, or any tracking over time, right?

449

:

When you launch the new solution, it

is really hard to back populate data.

450

:

So now you're kind of

starting from day one again.

451

:

So then you have the issue that

no one wants to start from day one

452

:

because they go, Oh, we've been

tracking it this way for two years.

453

:

So we know this way.

454

:

I mean, I literally had this conversation

with one of our clients a couple of

455

:

days ago, they're actually way bigger.

456

:

They're like over 200 million.

457

:

They are, uh, and they.

458

:

I've been able to grow really well

with this, the lead and contact plus

459

:

BI and a bit of snapshotting that's

kind of a little bit different, but.

460

:

They wish they had just invested in

something like custom object years ago,

461

:

because now they just have this big

resistance to change because of how far

462

:

along they've gone and how they don't want

to just start data from scratch again and

463

:

the kind of the tech debt and process and

the difficulty to change once something

464

:

has been embedded in for so long.

465

:

So even though I don't want to be the guy

that's like over investing something too

466

:

early, if it was me and it was my company,

I would probably just want to get this

467

:

like Sorted sooner rather than later.

468

:

So then I can just grow into it and not

have all of the resistance to change and

469

:

know that I'm eventually have these pains

that are going to be even harder to solve.

470

:

Right.

471

:

Like we can deploy this custom object.

472

:

Like if you're a new startup with a

small team and low complexity, you

473

:

could probably deploy it in a month.

474

:

You're a big company, lots of complexity

by the company that I'm talking about

475

:

here, probably going to be like a five

month project, you know, cause there's

476

:

going to be so much work that you have to

do to unravel everything that you've got

477

:

existing and then rebuild the new thing.

478

:

So that's the trade offs.

479

:

I don't know where I perfectly stand

on when to invest, but that's the trade

480

:

offs that I wrestle with all the time.

481

:

I've wrestled with

482

:

Justin Norris: it a lot, too, and I

think there is no perfect solution.

483

:

I've made both mistakes of, you know,

I've been the one maybe putting a

484

:

solution that's over architected

or too complicated for a stage,

485

:

and that fails in a different way.

486

:

You have adoption issues, people

don't understand it, they want to

487

:

revert back to a simpler state.

488

:

The flip side, of course, is Building

an inadequate foundation, you can always

489

:

like repaint your walls, you can redo your

roof, you can swap out windows on your

490

:

house to continue with that analogy, but

can't very easily upgrade your foundation

491

:

or like your basement waterproofing or

the insulation on the inside of your

492

:

walls without being very disruptive.

493

:

So there's some things that you want to

plan ahead for, and I'm also of the mind,

494

:

I started at a new company two years

ago, the funnel was relatively simple,

495

:

but it's like, is that the priority?

496

:

It's working today, you know, and,

but then two years later, like.

497

:

It only ever gets harder to change it.

498

:

So in many ways, it's like the best

day to do it was yesterday, and

499

:

the second best day is today, and

the third best will be tomorrow.

500

:

Do it as quickly as possible.

501

:

So there's that.

502

:

The other piece to that as well, I think,

is having a solution that is strong enough

503

:

that people can grow into it, and also

simple enough that It can be used more

504

:

easily by a company at an earlier stage.

505

:

So there's like switchable features or

things that are hiding behind curtains

506

:

that you can be, Oh, you need this now.

507

:

And like use it before.

508

:

And you didn't notice it there before.

509

:

Have you had to think through those

sorts of challenges in the way

510

:

that you've designed your solution?

511

:

Charlie Saunders: Yeah.

512

:

So I think right now the solution

is a bit more of an all or nothing.

513

:

It's not like you can dip your toe in

the water with a bit of custom object

514

:

tracking and then expand from there.

515

:

The other thing that I'll mention is.

516

:

Obviously we've been building funnels

since we started CS2 and before,

517

:

but this particular solution where

we've got a Salesforce unmanaged

518

:

package to build out the custom object

side, that was built by our chief

519

:

architect, Alison, middle of last year.

520

:

We now have 10 clients using

it as of today, a lot more

521

:

deployments planned for this year.

522

:

So we've gone through this a good

amount of times, and honestly, the

523

:

custom object side There's two pieces.

524

:

There's the Salesforce architecture

and deploying the unmanaged package.

525

:

And then there's everything else

that you need from a marketing

526

:

and tracking side, right?

527

:

Like I talked about, we're tying these

funnels to the marketing programs.

528

:

So we need to know we

have to have UTM tracking.

529

:

We have to have proper lead

source stamping and capturing

530

:

of the offer and the channel.

531

:

We need a proper sales handoff process.

532

:

There's all of these different pieces

that you need, actually, irregardless

533

:

of whether you're building a data

model on a custom object or not.

534

:

So the complexity, actually, on the

custom object side, with the way that

535

:

we built it as well, is, I guess,

all just using Salesforce Flow.

536

:

I mean, there's a tiny bit of Apex,

I think, but it's not a managed,

537

:

Apex, heavy Salesforce package

that no one's going to understand.

538

:

So I think It does raise the question

that if you already need to have UTM

539

:

tracking, you know, lead sourcing, all

that stuff anyway, regardless of the

540

:

method, if the thing that's additive is

just this basically pulling all the data

541

:

of the leading contact and account and

opportunity, et cetera, onto a custom

542

:

object, and that is a templatized.

543

:

Install does need to play nice

with all the other Salesforce

544

:

automation that you have.

545

:

And that's kind of the one bit that

we often spend more time on, but it's

546

:

not as complicated as one might think.

547

:

So when you think about the trade

off of when should you implant

548

:

complexity into your org at what time.

549

:

You already have quite

a complicated process.

550

:

And with this custom object, isn't

changing anything from a sales

551

:

process point of view, right?

552

:

It's a tracking mechanism and getting

the data into the custom object.

553

:

The one thing I will say though.

554

:

Often when we implement this, we do

need to change some of the sales process

555

:

because their sales process was trash

and it needed improvement, but it wasn't

556

:

necessarily because of the custom object.

557

:

We just needed to define their stages

better and they hadn't defined their

558

:

stages, so you know, I'm not crazy in

my head and going like everyone needs it

559

:

from day one, but it is something to think

about for earlier stage companies that.

560

:

It's not as scary as you might think.

561

:

And then also really think about what

do you want to grow into for the next 10

562

:

years and are you okay with potentially

making a switch five years in and

563

:

starting data again from that date?

564

:

I want

565

:

Justin Norris: to ask you a series

of questions, maybe to go through the

566

:

structure of this, help people visualize

it a little bit and what it means.

567

:

Maybe I'll just mention first,

the way I found my path towards

568

:

this sort of solution was actually

really early in the game for me.

569

:

It was like 2016.

570

:

So we're going back eight years or so now.

571

:

And it was sort of like the first

level of the game was the hardest

572

:

mode because it was a company that

just had crazy levels of complexity.

573

:

They had multiple product lines.

574

:

They had multiple regions.

575

:

It was multi dimensionality to the

extreme, and that people could be not

576

:

only in cyclical funnels, but they could

be in multiple funnels at the same time.

577

:

And so it was a really hard problem

to solve, really fun, but like there

578

:

were certainly times in that project

where I was sort of on calls with

579

:

my head down on my desk like, oh no.

580

:

What will they need next?

581

:

And ended up, you know, the solutions

available that time ended up solving

582

:

it, stitching together a few pieces

that ended up working well, that

583

:

pushed us in a particular direction.

584

:

And a big part of that, like you

said, around sales process was

585

:

creating a separate interface

that people had to interact with.

586

:

In order to manipulate these different

funnels in different stages, do you

587

:

require, let's start there, maybe

in terms of what the salesperson

588

:

interacts with, do you require that?

589

:

Or let's say they have a good

process that they like, a good

590

:

set of statuses that they like,

can they keep doing their thing?

591

:

And this is just tracking the

data better in the background

592

:

Charlie Saunders: if they have

good statuses and that aligns with.

593

:

Also our philosophy on, on the stages

too, then we're not going to require

594

:

them to really do anything different.

595

:

So like a lot of our clients,

they're using like an outreach

596

:

or a sales loft as well.

597

:

That's where kind of their

team's working a lot of the time.

598

:

You know, so, so when we think about

each of the stage progressions, right.

599

:

MQL comes in a lot of times we're

tracking to the next stage, the working

600

:

stage through an activity that's been

logged by outreach or sales loft.

601

:

So they're doing what they

want to do over there.

602

:

Activity gets logged.

603

:

We're then moving, we're progressing the

stage to working automatically for them.

604

:

Then if there's a meeting, you know, it

depends on how they're logging meetings

605

:

and activities, or if they want to, a

lot of times actually our clients create

606

:

stage zero opportunities for meetings.

607

:

So again, just going into

Salesforce, their normal workflow,

608

:

creating a stage zero opportunity.

609

:

We're listening for that.

610

:

We then move that the life cycle

record to the stage of whatever we

611

:

want to call it, it could be meeting

books, stage zero opportunity.

612

:

And then we're listening for

opportunity stage progression.

613

:

So they're doing their normal workflow

and there's nothing for them to log into.

614

:

There's nothing for them

to look at outside of this.

615

:

It's purely just listening for the stage

triggers that we've set and defined.

616

:

And then moving that lifecycle

record through those stages.

617

:

And capturing a lot of

data along the way, right?

618

:

Like we can capture.

619

:

Who owns the record at certain stages,

obviously retract the marketing data

620

:

for the tipping point, where then

linking to the opportunity so we can

621

:

pull all the opportunity data onto

the life cycle record to get any,

622

:

you know, all the normal stuff you

would imagine, like opportunity stage,

623

:

opportunity amount, that kind of stuff.

624

:

But then any of the fields, we can

also track like the account stage at

625

:

different, like usually you would track

that at the beginning of the funnel.

626

:

So.

627

:

If, for example, the MQL, but there

are the account as a customer type,

628

:

then maybe we'll log that as a customer

funnel versus a prospect funnel.

629

:

So it's really this other layer tracking

to give you that robust data set to

630

:

do your reporting as opposed to the

custom object itself enforcing its

631

:

own process where there's a bit more.

632

:

Nuance to that is, like I said,

nine times out of ten, or maybe

633

:

even ten times out of ten.

634

:

When we come and deploy this for

clients, their process needs work too.

635

:

So that's like its own project

to fix the process, and then the

636

:

custom object sits on top of it.

637

:

Justin Norris: Starting from the very

beginning, I'm a visitor, I come to

638

:

the website of Acme's Work With You,

they have the solution in place.

639

:

I fill out a form, maybe even the first

form I fill out is like content download.

640

:

Are you creating a funnel at

that stage or only if it's time

641

:

for sales to start working?

642

:

Only if sales.

643

:

So it's really a sales, I'm going to

call it sales centric, not that marketing

644

:

doesn't get involved because as you

mentioned you have tipping points and

645

:

you're tracking the campaigns, but the

origin point for the funnel is the sales

646

:

Charlie Saunders: activity.

647

:

Correct.

648

:

It's the tipping point.

649

:

So technically how it would work is,

so say you've got Marketo and you doing

650

:

lead scoring, or maybe you have hand

raiser kind of that will accelerate

651

:

them to become an MQL and their status.

652

:

They just call it MQL because

people are used to that.

653

:

So the status will change to MQL based on

your Marketo automation, that's scoring,

654

:

et cetera, and changing the status.

655

:

And then when that state is changed to

MQL, a life cycle record would be created.

656

:

And then we will capture

what set them to MQL.

657

:

So it could be like the demo form or the

UTMs and all of the marketing information.

658

:

So it's the initiation of the sales

process, but the initiation of the sales

659

:

process could be marketing led, obviously.

660

:

So that's where it would tie the

marketing activity to the sales process.

661

:

Justin Norris: So the marketing

automation, let's say Marketo or whatever

662

:

they might be using, those rules are still

dictating when somebody is sales ready

663

:

or MQL or whatever word we want to use.

664

:

And at that point you're

like, okay, I got it.

665

:

I'm starting a new funnel and

I'm capturing all the information

666

:

that is available to me.

667

:

Charlie Saunders: And that's where you

could have multiple tipping point types.

668

:

So I mentioned like PQL, you know, some

of our clients might be, I wouldn't

669

:

say this is the best solution for

like true product led where literally

670

:

they can go all the way through and

buy the product without talking to a

671

:

salesperson, but more sales assisted

PLG where you're looking at some buying

672

:

signals when someone is actually using

the product, maybe free trial, et cetera.

673

:

And then you have some mechanism

to say this person is a PQL

674

:

and needs cells to follow up.

675

:

So that would work the same way, but

maybe it's not Marketo doing that,

676

:

maybe it's something else, or sometimes

could be, and then the lead status

677

:

would be PQL instead of MQL, and

then that would also be a trigger.

678

:

Or, for cells outbound, the way

we'll start to funnel there, If

679

:

someone is pre MQL, and then we

see that cells logs an activity

680

:

against that person, we then start a

funnel, an outbound funnel for them.

681

:

I didn't create a new record,

the life cycle record, what

682

:

for that outbound funnel?

683

:

The

684

:

Justin Norris: outbound funnel is

based on, could be somebody like being

685

:

put into a sales loft cadence or an

outreach sequence, something like that.

686

:

What if the other funnel

is already active?

687

:

Does it start two or it sort of says

this one's already superseding it?

688

:

Charlie Saunders: There's only

ever one active funnel at a time.

689

:

Now what

690

:

Justin Norris: about So we use Chili Piper

and the opportunity stage for us, but

691

:

it's the BDR, SDR, the rep that's doing

the qualification before it gets to an

692

:

AE is going to have a discovery call or

an alignment meeting with that person.

693

:

So can you trigger a stage change

based on like an activity record

694

:

happening, you know, with particular

695

:

Charlie Saunders: parameters?

696

:

Yeah.

697

:

So that's how we move often.

698

:

So like I mentioned before, sales

radio MQL to working, we automate

699

:

that through seeing an activity that's

been logged by typically one of the

700

:

sales engagement platforms, like I

mentioned, the meeting books, you could

701

:

trigger that based off, you know, a

meeting being logged in Salesforce.

702

:

But these days I'm seeing first proper

collaborative meeting between AE and SDR.

703

:

A lot of our clients are using stage zero,

but you could use the activity object and

704

:

just see that a meeting is being created.

705

:

Some of our clients like a stage in

between two where there's working,

706

:

there's maybe like a connected stage

before meeting, but that section of

707

:

the funnel is the most variance I would

say between clients, where you go from.

708

:

Sales ready to pipeline in between, you

know, there's like sales ready, working,

709

:

meeting pipeline, sales, ready, working,

connected, meeting pipeline, the section

710

:

that we'd work on the most to go, okay,

what do you want the sales process to be?

711

:

And then how are we going to

trigger to know when those

712

:

milestones have been achieved?

713

:

And that can work either using like

activity data, state opportunities,

714

:

there's different ways of handling it.

715

:

And when you're configuring.

716

:

The custom object, the unmanaged

package, you would configure that and

717

:

basically tell it what those triggers

would be for each of those stages.

718

:

You've sort of answered

719

:

Justin Norris: the question already, but

there's some kind of settings interface

720

:

where you can specify all these things

and what it's like for your business.

721

:

There's

722

:

Charlie Saunders: sometimes there's

some kind of auxiliary automation that

723

:

you might need to create depending on.

724

:

And this is where some of the real

weeds here, but some clients, they

725

:

might want to move forward stages based

on like an outreach stage changing.

726

:

And actually one thing to call out here,

if you've got your outreach or sales

727

:

loft stage synced to your lead status

or your contact status directly, change

728

:

that, sync it to like an outreach stage

field and then have other automation

729

:

that can then progress the lead

status because what you often find is,

730

:

particularly with our package, it's

relying on the lead status changing.

731

:

The stage can go backwards and

forwards, like an outreach stage.

732

:

So you don't want to revert the

funnel when you shouldn't, but anyway,

733

:

another side point, but you might

want to build a flow to say, okay,

734

:

when the outreach stage hits this

stage, progress the lead status to.

735

:

Working, and then that would then

be the trigger for our custom object

736

:

to say, okay, stage hit working,

because we saw that a status change.

737

:

So, like I said, it's a bit where we

need to do a little bit of digging.

738

:

But essentially, what you're doing

is going, what are the stages?

739

:

How are we defining those stages?

740

:

What is the actual kind of

practical, what is happening in CRM?

741

:

To identify that stage has been

met, like an activity, like an

742

:

outreach stage changing, et cetera.

743

:

Progress the lead status or contact

status forward at that moment.

744

:

And then that would then progress

the custom object record.

745

:

Justin Norris: And I expect a lot of

people listening to this, maybe having

746

:

like a build versus buy discussion with

themselves a little bit on the margins,

747

:

like, Oh, that's really interesting.

748

:

Could I build it myself?

749

:

And you certainly could.

750

:

But I think something that you're paying

for when you buy a solution like this

751

:

is the number of reps that people have

gone through to already figure out and

752

:

solve for bugs, issues, edge cases.

753

:

And I'm just curious, what are some of

the hiccups that you've seen and had to

754

:

solve for in this process through your

755

:

Charlie Saunders: iterations?

756

:

For that, I'd probably have to get

Alison on my team to come in and

757

:

take us through all of the hiccups

as the kind of the chief architect.

758

:

The thing I will say, Alison is

the most thorough person that

759

:

I've ever met in my whole life.

760

:

I think we might have even shown

you when we talked to you before.

761

:

I

762

:

Justin Norris: met with

you and Alison, yeah.

763

:

She is amazing.

764

:

Charlie Saunders: Yeah, so like,

she's gone through, I think

765

:

we had like 35 different lead

conversion scenarios accounted for.

766

:

So like, lead is in this stage and

this is kind of a particular thing

767

:

on that lead and then gets converted.

768

:

And to then make sure that every

lead conversion scenario is accounted

769

:

for and the funnel still operate.

770

:

But I think there's always tinkering

and improving the product, but

771

:

she would be able to speed to

that a lot more than I could.

772

:

I think the biggest thing that

we've learned is how to deploy this.

773

:

Like I mentioned before, there's

a lot of prerequisites that you

774

:

need for this to work, and actually

any funnel tracking to work.

775

:

And I think sometimes, like

everyone in Mops probably, like

776

:

we underestimate how much work.

777

:

That is particularly for our more

mature clients where there's a lot

778

:

of tech debt we have to unravel and

there's a lot we have to get working.

779

:

So I think that has probably been

the biggest learning is setting

780

:

expectations right up front about

how much work we need to get them to

781

:

the baseline for this to even work.

782

:

It's less even about the package.

783

:

It's more about their existing foundation.

784

:

But to your point about build versus buy.

785

:

Someone messaged me on LinkedIn the

other day and he said that he saw

786

:

my post and he mentioned that he

built it like five years ago and it's

787

:

working great and I was like stoked.

788

:

I mean this isn't our only way.

789

:

Anyone can build custom object

tracking in Salesforce if you

790

:

have the right Salesforce team

and you know what you're doing.

791

:

Obviously I love our method and it's

very tried and tested now and it has

792

:

a lot of thought that's gone into it.

793

:

So you are buying kind of a shortcut

to get there if you were to go.

794

:

There's something like that we offer.

795

:

And the one thing that we really wanted

to make this kind of important to us

796

:

is that it's an unmanaged Salesforce

package and it's not a subscription cost.

797

:

And actually right now we're only

charging our clients, the deployment

798

:

cost, we're actually giving it

away, but then we are going to start

799

:

charging for it itself plus the

deployment, but still as a one time fee.

800

:

And so you think of it more as

like an open source product.

801

:

It's not open source that you can't

just go download it from anywhere.

802

:

But once we do implement it for

you, it is yours to own and use and

803

:

modify it as you wish going forward.

804

:

It just gets you there a lot quicker.

805

:

And the amount of hundreds or probably

over thousands of hours has been put into

806

:

this now to really refine the approach.

807

:

Would be quite difficult to pull

off like for an in house team.

808

:

That's what I

809

:

Justin Norris: think about as well when

I have those discussions with myself,

810

:

but having it be modifiable is key.

811

:

Everybody is different.

812

:

It's not that anyone's processes

are so precious, but just sometimes

813

:

it is easier to like build around

the giant boulder that's in the

814

:

way rather than blast through it.

815

:

Like there's just

certain pragmatic things.

816

:

Maybe one last question or two

around the attribution piece,

817

:

because we've touched on it, but it

would be interesting to come back.

818

:

There's lots of different

ways of looking at this.

819

:

And it can be challenging because

Somebody moving to a particular

820

:

stage, even though that stage may

still be like a social convention.

821

:

If we have a stage of like meeting booked,

it's like, well, there is this objective

822

:

fact in the world that a meeting was

booked and we can record that or that

823

:

area to be considered an opportunity and

therefore an opportunity was created.

824

:

It's kind of indisputable.

825

:

Whereas when we talk about

attribution, we're implying

826

:

a statement about causation.

827

:

We're saying that this thing caused that

thing to happen, which is of course a

828

:

very problematic and messy thing to say

because Who really knows why something

829

:

happened in reality and there can be

many factors and there's lots of other

830

:

touches that aren't getting there.

831

:

So how do you think about tipping point?

832

:

And I know you're capturing

that first tipping point when

833

:

the sales process begins.

834

:

How do the rest of those

touches, if at all, factor in?

835

:

Or are you really looking at it

primarily from that tipping point

836

:

demand capture touch when you do

your kind of campaign analysis?

837

:

Charlie Saunders: I mean, the first

protocol there is looking at it from

838

:

the tipping point, demand capture

touch, and obviously I'm an advocate

839

:

for this approach, but I could

also tell, you know, do a whole

840

:

dissertation on why single touch

attribution has its flaws too, right?

841

:

I'm not.

842

:

Naive to that you, we can capture

other touches along the journey.

843

:

So you could look at, you know, touch

before certain milestones or some

844

:

clients we've been talking about other

milestones, like they may have come

845

:

in like through an outbound funnel

or marketing inbound funnel, but

846

:

then also signed up for the product.

847

:

So you might want to represent that

on this object, or they've either

848

:

hit some other threshold around maybe

getting to like a six QA from ABM.

849

:

We might want to represent

that on the object as well.

850

:

But I still think to your point,

it's not multi touch attribution

851

:

and it's not trying to be right.

852

:

And I think everyone probably

knows there's a lot of flaws with

853

:

multi touch attribution as well.

854

:

And I like to come back to none

of these models are perfect.

855

:

What you want is that they're

going to give you some insight

856

:

to improve your business.

857

:

I see both of these types of attribution

in several different layers, but one

858

:

of them is the difficulty to track.

859

:

Then there's like the

difficulty to analyze.

860

:

I think funnel metrics is

actually quite difficult to track.

861

:

That's why we have our custom object, but

it's actually relatively easy to analyze.

862

:

Like if you look at two channels

and then the conversion rate

863

:

between the two, you can draw a

relatively easy insight from that.

864

:

Multi touch attribution is

actually relatively easy to set

865

:

up, especially if you get a tool.

866

:

It's actually really hard to

get insight out of it because it

867

:

basically says everything is working.

868

:

So, I mean, there's a

million other trade offs.

869

:

It's the

870

:

Justin Norris: participation

trophy of attribution.

871

:

Everyone gets a little piece of the pie.

872

:

Exactly.

873

:

Charlie Saunders: So, it's tough.

874

:

I had a

875

:

Justin Norris: previous discussion

with sydney waterfall from refined labs

876

:

and she talked a bit about the touch

prior to the sales process beginning

877

:

and I found it really interesting.

878

:

A bit of a light bulb moment for me

because people think about the first

879

:

touch which is just the very first

touch i think about like last touch

880

:

before the opportunity was created but.

881

:

You could have lots of things going on in

between when a salesperson starts working

882

:

on a lead and then maybe they just start

binging your content and then you have a

883

:

last touch that's completely unrelated.

884

:

Whereas the sales, let's call it the

sales working tipping point touch, tells

885

:

you a lot about, not necessarily about

what was influential for that lead, but

886

:

How valuable is it when we reach out to

people at this point in time, you know,

887

:

so it's kind of like less about like,

oh, this thing is just responsible for

888

:

everything, but more like, should we

really reach out to people when they just

889

:

register for a webinar at a good time?

890

:

Or should we call every ebook lead?

891

:

Or should we only do demo request

leads or something in between?

892

:

And I think that's really valuable and

I That was just a new concept for me, I

893

:

guess I hadn't really thought about it

that time, but I think that actually gives

894

:

you a really valuable insight into like,

where should you deploy sales effort?

895

:

Where should you not?

896

:

Charlie Saunders: A hundred percent.

897

:

I mean, when you think about

what's happened over the last

898

:

18 months with companies trying

to get efficiency gains, right?

899

:

Versus growth at all costs,

particularly in our industry, you

900

:

don't want sales, like having like a 0.

901

:

3 conversion rate from what you're

sending them to what they're actually

902

:

turning into meetings and pipeline.

903

:

And so if you don't have the data to

go, well, I sent them all these content

904

:

syndication leads and nothing happened,

but I sent them these other leads and

905

:

they converted a much higher rate.

906

:

Then you can't, maybe don't

turn off content syndication.

907

:

I mean, I've got kind of a strong

opinion on content syndication,

908

:

but everyone has their own

channels that they find successful.

909

:

At least you don't send

them to sales, right?

910

:

And waste their time.

911

:

And maybe if you reduce that volume by

looking at this type of data, you, maybe

912

:

you don't have to reduce your sales team.

913

:

I mean, you could, but if you'll just

be much, you'll be deploying those cells

914

:

that so they sells hours so much better

because they're going to be following

915

:

off on people that want to speak to them.

916

:

And they're going to be able to

have a much better curation of that

917

:

buyer experience because they're

not just wasting their time,

918

:

just trying to chase down people

that have no interest in buying.

919

:

That's a great

920

:

Justin Norris: point.

921

:

And I think that is the

capstone of the funnel.

922

:

I'm really glad we could do this.

923

:

It's just such an interesting

challenge to solve.

924

:

I think, cause it also has so much pain

and as operators, we like things to like

925

:

work well and you feel like a wound in

your soul and you know that there's like

926

:

duct tape and things that are just dust

bunnies that are swept under the rug.

927

:

You don't like that.

928

:

You want things to be

clean and well architected.

929

:

Love what you folks have done and

look forward to seeing more as you

930

:

deploy this out into the market.

931

:

Really glad you could come

and chat with me about it.

932

:

Yeah, I

933

:

Charlie Saunders: appreciate you having

me on it's been great to talk about

934

:

this and I think you've been on our

podcast a couple of times once with

935

:

both me and Chrissy and one with Chrissy

so it's great to turn the table a bit.

936

:

Yeah,

937

:

Justin Norris: absolutely, and we'll

have to keep the dialogue going.

938

:

100 percent Alright, well thanks

Charlie, speak again soon.

939

:

Yep, cheers Justin.

940

:

Hey everyone, I want to

invite you over to the RevOps.

941

:

fm Substack community, where

you can sign up to get rough

942

:

transcripts, show notes, longer form

articles, and other bonus content.

943

:

Just head over to RevOps.

944

:

fm slash subscribe to get free access.

945

:

I'd also love to know what you thought

of the episode, and to hear suggestions

946

:

for topics you want to learn about.

947

:

Feel free to leave a comment on Substack.

948

:

Or send me an email at justinatrevops.

949

:

fm.

950

:

Thanks for listening.

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