John Milham, host of Kintsugi Heroes, had the successful life, the family, the script — until his wife's cancer diagnosis tore it up. What followed was grief, single fatherhood, parenting after loss, and the slow discovery that "I'm alright, mate" was the most expensive lie he'd ever told.

"Life is simple — love, connection, stories, and a little silliness"

"Does anyone even want to hear my story?"

"The world doesn't have a lot of resources for men who are left on their own"

John grew up in an Australian culture where men didn't do feelings. In this raw first episode, he shares what losing the life he'd built taught him about vulnerability, community, and why "I'm alright, mate" nearly cost him everything.

What we explore:

• The moment of crisis: a cancer diagnosis, grief, and confronting mortality
• How masculine conditioning shuts down men's emotional expression — and what it costs
• Vulnerability as the doorway to healing, not a weakness to hide
• The power of community, elders and authentic conversation in recovery
• Maslow's pyramid, self-actualisation and the simplicity of a life built on love, connection and a little silliness

Connect with John:

Website: kintsugiheroes.com.au

Instagram: @kintsugi.heroes

LinkedIn: Kintsugi Heroes

YouTube: Kintsugi Heroes

Facebook: facebook.com/kintsugiheroes

A little about Hamish

I spent 25 years building a life that looked successful from the outside, but within, it was the opposite. Everything was falling apart, and I was throwing fuel on that fire. The joy of life had fallen away. Late November 2018, I had to make a choice: live or die. I chose to live, and everything changed. I had to confront the pain I was carrying, look at the stories, and change. I built The Brave Man Project because there was nothing like this when I needed it.

Podcast website https://thebravemanproject.com/

Hamish's website https://hamishniven.com/

YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@TheBraveManProject

LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/hamishniven/

TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@hamish.niven

Instagram https://www.instagram.com/hamishniven/

Personal Facebook https://www.facebook.com/hamishniven

The cancer just did not stop.

And it eventually got her. And at that point,

You know, all that sense of me being the captain of the universe,

like, you know, made of iron impervious and,

and unable to feel pain. All of those kinds

all of those

stereotypes that I'd embraced so willingly

stereotypes that I embrace and completely

flew out the window. And I was

saw it up on the internet and I

the weakest. Most.

the weakest.

saddest, floppiest, most useless piece of human bag that you'd ever seen.

saddest, you know, most useless piece of...

getting mad when you never sleep.

I had no idea. with her, I'd lost who I was because we'd been together

I had lost everyone. With her,

I lost who I lost because we'd been together.

and grown up together.

We'd grown

If you survive, because it's a bit touch and go when you have,

If you survive, because it's been touching on you you have...

you don't know who you are.

You don't know who

but did you know there's a whole range of,

You know, there's a whole range of...

there's a whole place where people talk about emotions and they're kind

There's a whole place where people talk...

of honest and real and authentic.

I didn't know this existed, but it was,

it was happening in every coffee shop,

The conversation we had the other day about your story.

~ Very tough, very hard.

Can you tell me a bit about that,

please?

Hamish, thank you so much for having me on.

feel, you know, quite, you know,

it's quite novel and special to reach out and to have a conversation

to find someone so like minded,

right? But at the other side of the world,

it's kind of, you know, it's reassuring,

but also adventurous at the same time.

Hmm.

So thanks, thanks mate for the opportunity.

Yeah, my story, Crikey's, know,

that there's always that hesitation.

There's always that sense of,

You know, you know, I'm, I'm,

giving of myself and you know,

giving

the first thing that pops into my head is does anyone even want to hear my story?

first thing that pops into my head is does anyone...

Right? Yeah. That sort of universal feeling of,

I do.

of, you know, imposter syndrome,

right. So, but since you've asked.

The stage is

yours you for the next 90 minutes then I go go somewhere else

~ fabulous. ~ yeah, mate. ~ I guess like,

you know, there are, I like to think of,

you know, my life now in seasons,

right? I wasn't, I basically, started out as being,

you know, a product of, of, know,

typical Australian sort of, you lower to middle to lower class,

~ high levels of dysfunction amongst the,

you know, in terms of relationships.

But we lived in a lucky country,

so you could be miserable, poor,

and still experience life in a whole bunch

it's still a-

of bountiful ways. Getting outside,

playing sport, swimming,

adventuring. But to be honest,

Australian men have not been traditionally good at being vulnerable,

being

to be doing it for you, being in it,

nurturing being, you know, even spending time.

spending time.

That was not

the thing. And, ~ and often they were even at my parents' generation were

often recovering from even worse parenting,

Mm-hmm

you know, the, and it was the same in the UK where a whole generation

was suffering undiagnosed PTSD after two world wars and

after two world wars.

~

you know, the

depression and things like that.

their lives were, they were, their lives were difficult

and they were unresolved in many ways in their trauma.

So, of course generations pass those through,

they might not leave you much in the way of inheritance,

but epigenetically, they often leave you quite a lot of,

You

~ sort of trauma, genetic trauma.

Almost today. Almost.

So I felt that.

But of course you didn't recognize it.

You didn't recognize that this was a-

wasn't, there wasn't anything to,

you didn't look into a book or there was no online of course to say,

well, your teachers didn't go,

wow, you're carrying lots of adverse childhood experiences,

aren't you? right. You know, it very much it was,

you're either a rat bag or a good kid.

You're either sort of well-off and fancy or poor and you know,

Hmm

~

you kind of things were much more sort of.

Categoried.

And you stayed in.

so that meant that by the time I was,

you know, sort of a teenager,

I've been locked into my dysfunction.

If you will, like I, I was never broken,

but I wasn't operating exactly smoothly,

right? In well, well, and truly in need of a decent amount of sort

of bolt tightening and greasing,

right?

And I sat in front of this delightful lass who was a member of the surf club

and I'd seen her and I had a fascination for her.

I sheepishly chatted away and then we sort of,

you

you know, hooked up at a surf club dance one night and that almost undid me,

Wow

Wow ~

but I sort of came back and.

offered to be a more of a gentleman and take her out.

And anyway, that we met at school at 16 and we ended up being together through

school and then getting engaged and married early and sort of taking on life.

Right. So I literally met my wife.

She was the second girl I'd ever gone out with.

And I met her at school sitting behind me in class.

And so, you know, we got one of the

And so, we got

interesting things about that was you didn't,

another interesting scene about that.

It didn't have much idea about...

you didn't have much idea about being

romantic or, know, like we were 16 year old Aussie kids,

right? That romance, romance involved,

right? A straight bat and a, you know,

and a couple of beers afterwards,

But we grew up together and solved problems together.

So we just had this very practical relationship,

So we just had this very practical relationship.

but it was very nice. We were,

But it was very nice. were, you know,

you know, at some part siblings,

at some part sibling, some part boyfriend,

some part boyfriend, girlfriend,

girlfriend.

there was a naivety and yet we were kind of dealing with problems of life as a team.

dealing with problems of life as a team,

Right. So there was a good partnership.

right? So there was a good partnership.

It just grew. It grew inevitable and we solved problems.

It just grew, it grew inevitable.

eventually had kids. So.

actually had kids,

We had three kids together. took,

so we three kids together. I took,

you know, ended up being in the corporate world the whole time.

you know, ended up being in the corporate world a whole time.

All the, the, all the rotten stuff

All the rotten...

that I had the propensity to do or be.

She tempered that, right? She,

she pointed, she helped me find a different pathway.

Hmm

~

So I became productive and useful and even kind of,

you know, influential at some point.

Now I took that, being a bloke,

I thought that was all my work.

Yeah. I thought I was amazing.

So we,

kind of, our kids were sort of moving on.

were all at school. So my, youngest was 5 and a 9 and a 12 year old.

And she wasn't well, she hadn't been well for quite some time.

And eventually that became a bit critical.

So we moved, I took her to hospital and there was.

I took it to

admission and surgery and then the words surreal words

real words. That word will actually,

that were ~ well actually I'm afraid to say this

I'm afraid, say this is benign.

is benign this is malignant you have a tumor in your bowel and it's malignant

This is malignant. You have a tumour in your mouth.

And that just hearing that I couldn't get my head around it at first.

And that, just hearing that, I couldn't get my head around it in

Right. But anyway, that began this roller coaster of.

a further scope than anybody. That begins this rollercoaster

of ignorance and learning and in the learning,

you learnt things you never want to hear.

~ and then you were given tasks you never want to take on.

And then the whole time you're kind of trying to be positive

and hopeful and connected to the people who wanted to help you.

to the people who wanted to help you and constantly being disappointed

but constantly being disappointed and pushed back and having to,

and pushed back and having to deal with the fear.

to, you know, deal with the fear of,

of this whole thing. So it was 12 months.

She had bowel cancer. was stage four.

~ and she was the most amazing,

you

She was the most amazing.

tough, strong, ~ determined lady I had ever met.

And she was so courageous during all of that,

but it was inexorable. The cancer just did not stop.

Hmm

And it eventually got her. And at that point,

You know, all that sense of me being the captain of the universe,

like, you know, made of iron impervious and,

and unable to feel pain. All of those kinds of stereotypes that

all of those kind of stereotypes that I embrace and completely just...

I'd embraced so willingly just flew out the window.

saw it up on the internet and I was...

And I was the weakest. Most.

the weakest.

saddest, you know,

saddest, most...

you know, sloppiest, most useless piece of...

floppiest, most useless piece of human bag that you'd ever seen.

getting mad when you never sleep.

I had no idea. I'd lost every,

I had no idea, I lost everyone.

with her, I'd lost who I was because we'd been together and grown up together.

With her, I lost who I lost because we'd been together.

We'd grown up together. I dunno,

I don't know. That sounds a bit dramatic.

it sounds a bit dramatic, I'm not freaking anyone out,

I hope I'm not freaking anyone out,

but, but in that time,

but... But then in that time...

you know,

If you survive, because it's a bit touch and go when you have,

If you survive, because it's been touching on you you have...

you don't know who you are. You don't know how you're going to do this anymore.

You don't know who you are, and you don't know how...

You have people still relying on you.

People still rely on you, people are still giving you expectations.

People still having expectations of you.

people still ex just assuming that you were coping.

Thanks.

And, you know, like so many of us and particularly blokes,

you know, the mask I put on was the only one I had left,

which was that stereotypical look at me.

Thank you.

I'm doing it. I'm tough. I'm strong.

I'm resilient. But I was just water inside.

And, um, I had that.

I had no one.

you

in my world who wanted to find out any kind of deeper truth.

world who wanted to find out any kind of evil truth.

Everyone was so

So...

equally unable to address the real issue of loss and grief and pain.

The day they would take my, They would accept my masking.

Uh, you know, they would say, uh,

you know, how you going, mate?

You, you must be feeling pretty bad.

And I'd go, "look, I'm not doing too bad.

We're holding it together. The kids are good.

You know, we have our days and it's a bit sad,

but yeah, I'm doing all right." And they go,

Oh, that's good news. You know,

let's go and have a beer one day or,

Mm-hmm.

know, I'll get you around for a barbie or something.

Right. And what a hoax that is.

Hamish that's, that's got nothing to do with where we are at that time.

Mm.

was a, you know, so without sort of wanting to sort of make this a pity party,

I was, ~ was sitting there without

any real belief that I would cope.

And when you don't believe you cope hope.

for and people come and go and they don't sort of crack that veneer.

Your hope slowly goes, right?

Mm-hmm.

And when hope goes, that's the protective space where,

you know, things that anchor you to life,

things, you know, like belonging and relationship and stuff.

They don't help you anymore, right?

Because you can't get to them.

You don't have the hope to, to grease the wheel,

if you will. And you, you learn things about yourself.

that you don't that are really hard to focus.

And I know you saw something right.

I thought, you know, I had that thought about me being,

you know, hero of the world and my family and,

you know, captain of my universe.

And what I did know, right. And I've said this before that

Vietnam.

I discovered I'd been a self-indulgent wanker that the person who

had kept me together, who was absolutely my rock.

Hmm.

was the person who was no longer around anymore.

And that it wasn't me being a hero,

it was me being very much a part of all

of the things she created, a part of her reality.

And I was the kind of front man for an organization that she was the engine room of.

engine removed.

it was pretty tough to be in that situation.

And you find out that the world doesn't have a

lot of resource available for men who are kind

of left on their own and need help because no one,

no blokes usually ask for it.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah, mean, falling through that gap.

Yes, I'm okay. That mask. I haven't been through that.

I don't have that experience, but I've done the yes,

I'm okay when I'm dying inside so I can feel that.

I've been on the other side.

I've been, how you doing, John?

Yeah, I'm fine. Good. Let's go and have a beer.

I've done that as well because I don't know how to carry your grief.

I don't know how to do that. That language wasn't anything I knew.

Yeah, and it

I didn't know how to be that support.

And oftentimes I still don't.

Yeah, we, we're not, you know,

there's no training academy that every bloke has to go through and qualify from.

There's no, no bootcamp that, you know,

you can't enter your twenties until you pass,

you know, your introduction to empathy and introduction to connection courses.

Right. so a lot of blokes,

you know, given the, the, that you model what you see,

~ and our fathers, you know, have,

Hmm

you know,

Not being a great model in most cases,

right? So of course there are blokes who understand who get this unlock.

And it's one of those interesting things,

Peace.

right? Because like, as I navigated the things that were potentially very,

very sort of dangerous for me,

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

as I dealt with my suicidal ideation,

~

as I sat there on long nights,

right? Unable to sleep, deciding whether tomorrow would happen or not.

And as I got, I you know,

I, I,

I've stumbled into things that helped.

So I discovered that there's a,

did you like, know this for me at the time,

this was revelatory,

but did you know there's a whole range of,

You know, there's a whole range of...

there's a whole place where people talk about emotions and they're kind

There's a whole place where people talk...

of honest and real and authentic.

I didn't know this existed, but it was,

it was happening in every coffee shop,

right? While blokes went to work,

right? Women and we're getting together.

And sharing these, these, you know,

these conversations that I were kind of extraordinary conversations.

People would ask you how you felt and then they would expect you to answer,

not, you know, not, you know, say fine and move on.

Right. ~ you know, so I,

cause I had a young daughter, she was five and so her,

her friend's parent, ~ mother,

mother's

were helping me sort of navigate a complete area of incompetence,

which was, you know, young looking after young children.

I think

I'd been in the corporate world.

I, know, this was an area I had no idea.

And they kind of helped. And so you would sit down and have a coffee

and these conversations were new and kind of dazzling,

You

right? How are you feeling? No,

no. I mean, how are you feeling?

That's how you feel.

Not like, you know, I'm not interested in the bullshit.

Um,

Hmm.

And so, know, and then I, you know,

so I learnt there and I, I, I realised if I was going to survive,

I had to find a different way of doing things.

So I went seeking answers and you know,

was like, tried a well trodden path,

know, reading Eckhart Tolle and Marianne Williamson and you know,

know, the, books of shelf development.

Right. So, um,

Mm-hmm.

And then, uh, you know, I was in the corporate world and I realised that,

um, I had a soul and that that soul was worth saving.

then I had to leave corporate world to,

save what was left of it. So in many ways,

just like what we're doing. So in many ways,

the thing that was the most,

the thing that was...

um, intolerable experience of my life.

Began the most important and positive sort

of trip journey of my life.

which was to become someone better,

become a better bloke. ~ And I needed to.

I needed to for me,

I needed to for my kids. And I suddenly realised that that...

to my kids and I suddenly realised...

I could, as I learned how to be a better bloke,

and data planning. I could also contribute more to the world.

I could also contribute more to the world.

And that became my purpose. so it's very exciting

So it's very exciting to get up every

to get up every day and not have to ask yourself,

day and not have to ask yourself why are you there.

why are you there? I'm,

I don't have an existential crisis before I have wheat bix,

Go cross this floor on that wing.

you know, like, yeah.

right? Coffee toast and then I just wonder who's going to bump

Coffee toasted now I just wonder who's gonna...

into me today that I'm available for to help or serve.

Mm-hmm.

And that's so that is very freeing.

And and it's also been really helpful,

It's also big, really.

right? Because a part of that journey was allowing me,

you know, because the universe decided that that experience,

you know,

19 years ago was only the beginning of a whole range of tough days

for John to go through. So I ~ ended

Hmm.

up finding apparently blokes like myself and maybe you Hamish.

Apparently we don't learn anything unless we're being kicked while lying

in the ground in a fetal position by being stomped on by the universe.

Apparently that's the best way we learn.

~

I've had a, I haven't had a few of those experiences,

almost becoming grateful for them.

And in the end, that might be a bit controversial,

Hmm.

but.

You have nailed so many things there,

are amazing things to talk about.

you know, where do we start? ~ Where do we start?

Hahaha! ~

I mean, I've written down the ungrateful wanker being kicked down by the universe.

mean, that's the universe. That whole thing.

I'm really aware that it seems to be the current thing seems

to be people only learn at the moment by stuff that happens to them.

You know, we don't have elders to advise.

~ Certainly in the West, there's not that,

you know. ~ So the only way you do it is when the shit hits the fan.

When you are on your knees crying,

when everything has gone wrong,

it's just like, well, I've got two choices.

As you said, is today going to be my last day?

That is a choice. ~ Fortunately,

you chose that's not.

I did. And men choose to ignore it.

Right. You know, like one of the great survival strategies of men.

Right. And I, I say men, not because I don't include women,

it's just that I don't have a reference point for women.

I'm by far, ~ you know, you're not an expert in women,

right. But, ~ they choose to ignore,

you know, even the need to make these choices.

Right. So we get into these behaviors.

Mmm.

that arose as a vote that are totally avoidant.

And what's interesting is the coalition

of men through the masculine culture

to promote that kind of avoidance.

So when, so you end up being pushed by the,

by masculine culture, by other men,

when you are not conforming, because you're actually by your actions,

you're throwing some light.

you're throwing some

light on their choices.

on their choices and saying,

you know, are you really making a decent choice?

Is this the best way for him, for a man to serve himself,

to serve himself.

his loved ones in the world? Right.

And often it's not right. We can hide all in,

Often it's not. We can hide in the structures of the world.

~ the structures of, of the world.

can hide in a corporate structure.

can hide in a corporate structure.

So our values, we, we throw our values into the cupboard,

the coat rack.

when we walk in and we pick up the values of a corporation,

right? Or a group or an organization that we associate ourselves with.

And those values are not human because

Mm.

a company has no soul, a corporation has no humanity,

right? And that is a tool for oppressing people's

is a tool for oppressing people's

Humanity because that gets in the way of production

humanity.

or profit, right? So if you want to be a human and believe me It's a it's

a good thing to be from my experience and from the experience

It's a good thing to be.

of watching other people do it,

right? You know to me the best kind of experience in life is a human one,

right and and a caring one and a one that focuses on love

Hmm

and kindness and other virtues right like compassion

Right. And service. Right. So when you,

when you focus on them, the rewards are amazing.

And I think, they're scary rewards.

You have such hard work to reveal yourself.

They're like, you have, it's hard work to reveal yourself.

It's hard when you are conditioned from an early age and in fact,

And in fact, condition for previous generations to not do it,

conditioned from previous generations to not do it.

Right. You know, the people we love and admire and look up to.

right? You know, the people we love and admire are told

up to. They didn't do it.

They didn't do it. Our fathers

didn't do it. Our grandfathers didn't do it.

The good men in the community didn't do it.

The men we see and admire in the ~ greater society often don't do it.

you

Great.

So we're sitting there, you know,

So we're sitting there being told,

being taught or conditioned to see certain behaviors like,

conditioned to see certain behaviours like persistence,

you know, resistance, ~ the desire to own or acquire things,

desire to own or acquire things.

the desire to stand our ground regardless of the

of the validity of the cause. ~ the idea of revenge,

and

right? Yeah. What is that? That's toxic to a person's,

~ love, right? That's not a love choice,

right? The idea of, ~ of being in charge of people,

~ of being in charge of...

right. And stopping them from making choices or having the right to do things.

Those kinds of things are really,

really not great choices for a man,

Hmm

but we,

We go into this environment where we put our values down,

we pick up those values and then we execute them with like,

and then we exit.

with no accountability. And I think,

you know, that's inevitably going

to cause a problem in you. So I see men being sick

Hmm?

or stressed or relationships break down or,

you know, perish the thought.

Hmm

that we lose a man every minute in the Western world to suicide.

you know, it's like,

it's outrageous that, that this causes so much damage

and yet there's zero,

you know, like people are talking about it,

Okay.

but we're not taking action as a communal action to change it.

And for me, I I'm just grateful that the universe

kicked the crap out of me, so I had to take,

I had to face some of these choices and I got to make them.

~ Not because that turned me into a more important

or higher person. What it did was it connected me

to the need and the joy in serving.

That sounds a little like, maybe I haven't given up that old sort of.

You know, it's an indulgent wanking bit,

hahahaha

But there's a real ROI in that.

You you're called, you have a purpose,

Hmm?

right? And we are called when you touch it,

Yeah.

Holy shit.

you want more of it. It's a good place to spend your energy,

to love, to care and connect. And it's not because we're seeking perfection like

Mm.

that. That's complete delusion if you think perfection is available to

you as a bloke.

but because it's the right challenge for us,

let's take on a challenge to grow every day better,

Mm.

to every day be more connected,

to every day be more caring, to be more compassionate.

Can we let go, like the Dalai Lama,

I'm always so impressed. And I often remind myself,

John, you're not the Dalai Lama,

but maybe one day you can sort of...

you know, forgive enough people that you start to at least sort of,

keep enough people that you start to at least remind people what you've tried to do.

you know, remind people of him,

right? You know, ~ cause it's that whole,

you know, I used to look at blokes for no good reason and,

We agree.

suddenly have this urge to sort of get into a scrap with them or,

know, I just didn't like, you know,

Mm-hmm.

you, you didn't like someone just looking at them.

And now I spend an awful lot of energy trying to overcome that conditioning.

Right. So, and I look at a bloke and I think,

John, go hold,

you know, hold your saddle here.

Right. You know, let's take a step back and let's really be curious about this

Rock, paper,

person and to see what qualities,

All of these what?

what beauty they possess. And that's,

yeah. And, ~ you know, I'm, I'm not.

You know, I'm a Tyro, I'm a work in progress in that space.

But my goodness, it feels good when you connect with people through curiosity

My goodness.

Mm-hmm.

and generosity. you know,

how many people, you know,

are we seeing unable to connect to that?

into police...

And all of the pain that they scream out on the street at others,

you know, the vitriol, the trolling,

Mm-hmm. ~

the

You know, it's all pain from them.

And they're trying to get it out.

that,

you know, but screaming it out as abuse is the worst way to get it out.

and Adam's abuse is the worst way.

That's what I reckon.

I ask you a question, you give me six more questions to ask.

I mean, we'll be here forever,

I think. This is like, off we go.

I love it. ~

I'll try to speak in points, mate.

Just ask away, right? I'm very excited to answer.

god, no, no, no, no, this is not a PowerPoint present.

I'm loving your questions. So yeah,

more of them.

Yeah, no, this is definitely not a PowerPoint presentation.

No, God forbid. No, like like you,

Yeah.

I didn't do corporate not for long anyway.

~ I guess that's the place to start.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, why did you why did you leave the corporate?

When the stone of loss and grief hit that pond,

it was a huge splash. Totally disrupted my serenity,

my capability. Everything that I wanted calm in the world was disrupted.

But as the ripple spread out,

It would, the ripples went out in an unbiased kind of circle,

right? They would go to all places.

So some of them, some of the ripples were really hard for me to deal with.

You know, I had to, I had to navigate really sad kids and I was,

I had so much anger, right. And I had so much shame around that whole

death. Right. You know, like he,

he just as an example, you're a bloke.

Just as an example, you're

a

I'd been with my wife for 27 years.

She was, we were still young, but I had been a long time.

And at that point, right. When,

when she's gone, you start, you're sitting there and your mind's useless,

right. You're a robot. And then a thought comes up and going,

Oh, maybe I can sort of travel now,

or maybe I, you know, I want, you know,

I'll have a new relationship or maybe I can do something.

Well, and so and you suddenly realise that,

you know, that was kind of a.

you know, an exciting opportunity and the shame about feeling that way,

right, just even if it's a passing thought,

right, because, you know, I was committed to to to my,

Hmm

you know, to my soul mate. I. And it's so bizarre,

right, that the pain towards the end of her.

~ illness when you, was a beautiful summer Australian

spring day. ~ actually it was autumn,

right? And, the weather was perfect.

It wasn't too hot. It was warm,

but not hot. there was a beautiful sea breeze.

We praise, we live on the basis of

You know, we, lived on the beaches.

~

And we were visiting a doctor and we were walking back in the sun and

I was holding her up because she was so frail.

And the dichotomy of that moment,

right? It was just this, the place we live is beautiful.

It was just this beautiful, sunny Aussie day.

And she was so frail. She could barely walk.

And she looked up at me.

And she thanked me.

and

And I, like, I've, I was overwhelmed.

I was overwhelmed and at that moment,

And at that moment, like, how could she thank me for,

like how could he send me through to just to thank him for holding up

you know, for just, you know, for holding up someone who had

devotedly looked after me, you know,

without quietly and, you know,

without fuss and demand.

just for me doing something that was easy,

doing something that was easy physically,

physically supporting her. And at that moment,

supporting me. And that moment,

I remember thinking, I don't suddenly just blown over

I remember thinking, I don't, and suddenly just blown over

by the overwhelming feeling that I have never loved anything

by the overwhelming feeling that I ever loved.

more than that, than my wife at that moment.

I was there. And there wasn't a single...

That there wasn't a single, even Tim Tams I had,

you know, like.

There was nothing in my life I'd experienced that was more,

I'm sorry.

that moment of more unconditional love.

And then of course you go, Oh shit,

know, this, you know, she's not going to be around,

right? This is the, you know, this is,

it's almost like the pinnacle of that journey of love.

Hmm. ~

And I didn't think about it until later,

right? This idea. Cause at the time it was just too painful to think on,

but later on, um,

I was so grateful.

for having that moment, right?

The education of my heart, ~ the softening,

The indication of my heart is something like this.

right? All of that conditioning to make me a hard person.

You're all of that conditioning to make me a heart.

It was like applying a salve to the scar tissue

It was like, that's why...

to free and soften it up. And that moment,

right? So even at her end,

she was transformational for me as a person.

Right. So then, you know,

so as I became, I went back to work and I'm trying to sit there

in the corporate world and they're giving me tasks that were terrible tasks.

You know, I was outsourcing work or I was trying to,

you know, I was, you know, I I would,

my, was retrenching people or cutting contracts or,

you know,

And I just went, ~ this is not in honor of that moment.

It's not, this is not the best use of my,

of my head and my heart in service to her memory,

to what she taught me. So I just realised if I stayed in the corporate world,

Hmm

that increasing dissonance would kill me.

So I had to get out, right.

And, ~ you say you leave,

right? So the ripples.

Mm.

The ripples of that crash in the pond of my life.

Not every ripple caused ~ suffering.

Some of them saved me.

now.

And I left corporate world to become a better person because there was

no soul in the, in the corporate.

I worked for the, you know, the big,

worked for the biggest IT company in the world.

biggest IT company in the world at the time.

And I was, I had 300 people reporting to me and I traveled the world and,

And I had 300 people recording.

~ Yeah, I had to go. had to let all of that go to become a person that I.

that I would like to be. ~ And I was also,

to be fair, was, ~ although you don't reach out for help.

So that was probably sort of 18 months after she'd passed away.

takes, everything takes a long time when you're sort of locked in grief.

But I also, I was also mad as a cut snake,

I'll see you

right? So.

because anger, grief, you're not cognitively capable.

Mm-hmm

Right. So after the time you would sit,

some days I would sit there and I've got like,

you know, some strategic planning in my,

and I couldn't even, I couldn't even understand it.

Right. You, you are messed up

and, ~ yeah. And the world doesn't deal with messed up men very well.

Right. So, you know,

You so I was, uh,

you know, you go from top talent,

top talent team to, um, to,

you know, being the subject of quiet coffee,

nook conversations,

Yeah.

right? Well, at one stage, um,

uh, some of members of my team called me Mr.

Unobtainium. I think Avatar had just come out.

So, cause you just, you're just not there.

shit.

You're just going through and,

um, yeah. And I, so I, you know,

I eventually, somebody told me,

know, someone convinced me it was a bloke who I admired.

And he just said, you've got to talk to someone.

I didn't know how to do that. I,

you there was no, no explanation.

No one, I didn't know anyone who'd gone through that process at the time,

or at least they hadn't shared that.

Anyway, I reached out and I found someone.

The doctor diagnosed me with complicated grief.

What is complicated grief?

Apparently, according to the DSM-5,

it's grief that impacts you too greatly for too long.

Okay.

So you meant to be, you know, to spend

27 years as a symbiotic creature with someone.

And then, you know, when, when,

uh, you know, when a dramatic separation occurs due to cancer,

you get six months and then you're,

then you need to be over it. Otherwise some,

some, some bloke in a white coat is going to give you a diagnosis.

So, and I've got a few, I had general anxiety disorder.

you know, and adjustment syndrome.

that, ~ that none of those things or none of the intervention,

like it's part of the landscape of change,

but it's not particularly all of the useful change came from talking

Mm-hmm.

to people with lived experience.

Yeah, that's where it down to,

isn't it?

Yeah.

But it takes a while to find them.

Yeah. And to be able to

talk and to be able to open up and to be able to clean your teeth

one morning and get out of bed another morning and stuff like that.

And of course my kids, the poor buggers,

they'd suffered through that. You know,

as an angry man, that's not a great place when they don't have anyone else

Mm-hmm.

to rely on. And of course there's the complication of me being terribly concerned

in how to help them and being completely clueless about how,

how to raise kids on my own. ~ and I,

you know, the single most obnoxious statements ever made to people.

male or female, I imagine, in that situation where they've lost their partner is,

you

well now you'll have to be the mother or the father.

Right. How can you like,

Yeah.

what, just think about that. First of all,

let's dismiss the person you've lost as like,

as you know, ~ you can just fill the gaps.

with you.

Right. And then you can be some someone you're completely not right.

You know, and then you're going to have to pretend.

you, you present, ~

a kind of filling a minimization of the role of your partner to your children.

Yeah.

It just seems a very strange thing.

yeah. But anyway, you find out how,

you know, to do, do your best.

of course doing your best is it's like the 80 20 rule.

It's probably enough. Yeah.

Yeah.

Cause, ~ people are incredibly resilient.

Yeah.

If you it's, they're like a really robust indoor plant,

you know, how you can go away on holidays,

come back and it looks like it's miserable about to fall off the twig.

Peace.

And you give it a bit of a, you know,

a drink and a, maybe a sprinkling of plant food or something.

And then, you know, come back in a couple of days and the things bright green

and reaching for the sun again.

Thank

And I think people are a lot like that in that they have the in inbuilt resilience,

the inbuilt strength. And it and it's like it's inside,

but part of the secret of turning it on of unlocking

it involves connecting with someone else.

So, you know, everyone possesses the things they need to have to thrive.

Sometimes it's more difficult to get to because there's more scar or more noise

or more garbage placed on their shoulders,

Due to, you know, due to the world not treating them appropriately.

But everyone possesses those powers.

What they do need though is someone to come in and help them,

you know, recharge.

Clear the area, know, help them pull themselves up,

help walk next to them. You know,

down.

whatever all those sort of fancy metaphors about being helpful.

Hmm.

I think you've nailed something that you've actually validated a conversation.

I've had numerous times with some friends.

I think to thrive, need, you need people,

not that unhealthy need, but that healthy,

all of that. I need your love,

your patience, your calm to help flick a switch so I

can become that next iteration of me.

And I think you've, you've nailed it really beautifully there because

It's hard to connect, especially as a man.

You know, and I don't have your experience and I can just,

I'm laughing. I'm laughing at your kids coming in at six in

the morning about something and you have no idea what to do with it.

And I can't be the mum because I'm not a mum and all these kinds of things.

and

And you know, I would probably have lined up a whole row of expletives before

the poor child went out of the bedroom ~ and things like that.

It happened.

you know, I don't know how you got through that.

I used to get up, right? Like I go to bed at,

you know, three and get up at five to make like just so that I could make them

breakfast and, and put together a,

~ lunchbox,

right? Cause like, it was not my strong suit,

right? It wasn't like grab, you know,

bang, bang, bang in there, take off.

Right. Yeah. It would take me hours to sort of,

Hmm.

and they, they, they struggled through the most.

diabolical food offerings that I put in front of them.

were really, they were really nice about it.

you

They would go like, ~ dad, yeah,

yeah, no, this is, this is the best you've done so far.

Right. And then like, I could detect eventually after a certain passage of time,

I detected a change in their voice.

So when they said, dad, you, this is the best you've given us,

right.

Hmm

That it was actually a positive,

right? I realised that some point

We... We have...

We, we have to

find the resources in ourselves to make transformation,

healing and transformation is,

something we do from the inside out,

Yeah. But we are conditioned to rely.

but we are conditioned to rely.

We're told you are not enough.

We're told you are not. Stay in your role,

Stay in your role, stay in your lane,

stay in your lane, stay in your place.

stay in your place, stay, you know,

Stay, you know, dream but don't expect,

dream, but don't expect, right?

right? Have, you know,

No. How, you know, um,

us. You need to do the hard work just to get-

You need to do the hard work just to get a

subsistence amount of care and life.

subsistence of our care and support.

But so we're conditioned to have people allow

But, so we're conditioned to have people allow us to live.

us to live. So we want them to solve things.

So we want them

It's the matrix green or blue or red pill.

Give me what I need.

Hmm

And if you're suffering, if you're in the wrong place,

if you're just unlucky and happened to be at the,

at the point of, of, of a tough moment,

you look for an answer. Why is this happening to me?

Why, why is no one reaching out?

Yeah.

Why is no one helping me? Why is no one,

No one, you know, given me this or made me do this.

you know, given me this or made me do this or learn this or whatever.

And the answer is because it has to be you.

There is no answer. So when I would sit on the bed or

Mm-hmm.

See you on the...

I would look over, had a, you know,

I had a beautiful view out to a bay and I would stand there at two

in the morning and just make those decisions to keep going.

When I. I would look out and I would blame,

I would yell at the universe, I would,

you know, I would shake my fist at God,

I would.

I would take it my friend to still marry still had intimate

and still had joy and ease in their life.

and I was just playing there and not doing enough to help me.

And I would just blame them for not doing enough to help me.

And it was only until I slowly realised that the only one who could heal

and then I suddenly,

was me. And then I suddenly, when you change from reaching out,

when you change from reaching out and looking for more people to give you,

looking for people to give you an answer.

to reaching out and looking.

to reaching out and looking for people

to share their wisdom, right?

And to just connect where no words need to be exchanged,

need to be exchanged.

right? That's when I began to take ownership

of my own healing journey. And I remember thinking something,

Hmm.

you have all these friends who gather around you at a crisis and there

You have all these friends who gather around you in crisis.

And there are people you expect a lot from.

are people you expect a lot from and they,

And they really struggle to deliver anything.

really struggled to deliver anything.

And then there are these beautiful unexpected pearls in this whole,

you know, experience that just you walk in and they,

they, they are glowing inwardly glowing and just their very care and presence.

Mm-hmm and their strength

don't do anything different in many cases,

and their care, they transform your experience,

but they are with you and they're with you at an energetic at that like heart

right?

level.

And there it's their strength and their care that transformed your experience,

Because with

right? Because with everyone else,

everyone else, come in often,

they come in often, they're just as damaged about your loss as you are.

they're just as damaged about your loss as you are.

So, so often you find you're actually

So, so often you find your...

helping them cope with your loss.

helping them cope with your loss.

Right? So, so many people are a drain on the,

on the, on a person going through grief.

And it's these beautiful souls,

Yeah. Because the system continually.

right?

I believe that those people are the answer to our mental health challenges

in the community because the system continually pathologizes people.

And the system says, no, you've got to follow the rules or because it's

Mm-hmm

too risky to do anything else.

And they, but in the community,

that's where we will do 80 % of that support.

So the system can deal with complex issues or sticking bits back together

and gluing them back on. But it's going to be those glowing members

of our own community that don't even recognize their power.

You

that we need to promote because they're going to offer us the way that

that we need to promote because they're going to offer us the way that

in the next decade, no system will have the resources to solve everybody's mental

in the next decade no system will have the resources to solve everybody's...

~

health challenges. No system will be able to deal with

the mental distress of modern life.

Just think about the PTSD requirements of an entire country like Ukraine

or similar.

We're going to have to find ways for the community to care for each other.

And I think, I think that I've,

Yep.

I've had, I've seen that

through my own experience, through what,

you know, I would say to anyone is something I wouldn't,

you know, I turn, I would change if in a,

in a nanosecond, if I had the chance,

and yet I would not change the learning,

the connection.

to purpose the understanding and the care that I've gained out of that experience.

Hmm.

Does that make sense?

It makes a lot of sense. the fact that you were able to

lose your soulmate, your childhood sweetheart,

and realise that it actually, happened.

shit happens. It's not your responsibility for what happens around you,

but it's your responsibility to make sense of it.

And you've done that.

You have been able to say, okay,

shit happens. I'm not going to sink.

~ And that makes you remarkable.

That makes you so remarkable. I'm not blowing smoke.

I'm not blowing smoke. So remarkable.

I feel it's a little smoky.

It's getting thick, isn't it? Climb through.

But seriously, you made such a choice there.

And I know a bit more of your backstory and what you do.

~

You are one of those shining people.

But John, mean,

Yeah.

think this just take my hat off to you.

It's those choices change everything.

You've changed your kids' lives.

You help them.

It works reciprocally, you know,

Yeah.

and humans are beautifully designed for that.

Amish, right? They, you know, that's how any,

Hmm?

any, any greatness is achieved.

Um, you know, great men will tell you how,

how powerfully they strode the world alone,

like a Colossus. And, and, and then you just look at the people who are holding,

you know, holding them up as they walk,

right? Um, we are, we're designed to operate that way.

Mm.

And we've got

this kind of, put barriers in the way of our connection.

You know, I would love for us to believe the highest calling is not as a CEO,

but as a CCC, a communication and connection,

you know, commander, right? You know,

Mm-hmm.

like imagine going around and having like the unit of,

of humanity, the, the single basic,

you know, sort of, ~

currency of humanity is conversation.

So imagine if we had people whose jobs,

Mm-mm.

you know, who had that talent to connect,

who had that desire to be curious,

to be curious. Had the bravery to be available and to be authentic.

had the bravery to be available and to be authentic.

And then all their job was, was just to go and talk to people who needed a good,

All their job was was just to go and talk to people who needed and wanted

caring conversation at the time.

to share a conversation.

We wouldn't need giant hospitals half the time.

You know, I think, um, you know,

medicine is extraordinary. The knowledge is there,

This is extraordinary, the knowledge is there,

but no one invented the knowledge.

but no...

The knowledge is always there.

It just flows through. that, you know,

Hmm.

incredible great men tapped into the knowledge in the ancient days.

I'm a bit of a stoic. So I, you know,

I read the Stoics and, know, I just go,

Read the Stoics.

man, how clever were these Greeks and Romans?

Right. Um,

Mm-hmm.

You know, what gives me the right to believe I'm cleverer simply because

I can press the keys on a, on a computer,

right? You know, these like, I love that whole idea that human capacity

Hmm.

at that kind of reality level consciousness level is unchanged,

right? You know, the fact that we have different tools and so on is a credit

Hmm.

to the timer, you know, the power of our inventiveness and creativity.

Um, and resilience because you know,

life is not easy. And I like,

I'm often touched just by, you know,

when I think about, read stories of,

you know, like a, you know, of past battles or challenges or calamities.

And you think for every, you know,

And you think for every, you know,

every son.

every son,

every corpse on

every corpse on

a long lost historical battlefield,

there was a mother who is absolutely gutted.

It was a man who is absolutely gutted.

We have failed to record that side of history,

We have failed to record that side of history,

the humanness of all of this, right?

the humanness of all of this.

And as a consequence, sometimes we end up with dickheads like

the American cabinet at the moment,

but because they've lost their humanness,

Because they lost their human.

right? But if we champion that,

If we champion that,

if know, if

if every bloke who doesn't know how he's going to get through

Every bloke who doesn't know how he's going to get through who

his relationship and he has broken down to the point where he he's struggling

his relationship that he has broken down to the point where he's struggling

to get access to his kids.

to get access to his kids.

~ you know, every bloke who's over 50 and has a,

15.

you know, a young MBA graduate walk in and say,

MBA graduate walk in and say you're no longer needed all those years of experience,

you're no longer needed. All those years of experience,

you know, can be expressed in two weeks severance,

you know, can be expressed in two weeks severance,

right? ~

right?

If all of those blokes find that as a call to action

If all of those blokes find that as a core question

to be a more heart-based,

to be a more heart-based,

more kind and compassionate leader will change all of,

more kind and compassionate leader,

we'll change all of the leadership and sluggish shit because they are out there.

you know, the leadership will slowly shift because they are powerful men and they

have that power of experience and that power of,

you know, that whole, the light will turn on if they choose that path,

I reckon.

Mm-hmm.

There's your elders. There's the next generation of elders,

isn't it? The men and the women,

the crones, the women displaced the same kind of way.

That's not just a displaced, well it is,

just like you're no longer needed.

Go and be the wise woman, go and be the wise man because we don't have that.

The leadership of the village.

Yeah. The leadership

of the village wasn't gendered.

It was power-based, right? Like,

Hmm. Yeah.

you know, in the, in the days and we've learned a lot.

don't need to go back to live in mud and,

and herd cows, right? But that whole concept,

Hmm.

right? The community, the community and,

and humaneness of that concept,

we've thrown that out because we believe they were,

you know, they're, they weren't sophisticated.

Mm-hmm.

But you lose the knowledge in the

innate knowledge when you do that.

Right. Why did our dads didn't have this woke dialogue?

Yep.

How did they survive? Well, they did it tough,

you

but they did it because they had ~ institutions that were face

because they had institutions that were face to face,

to face care. They were places where men could get together,

they were places where men could get together.

you know, the community center,

The community center, the veterans organization,

the veterans organizations, the

the old bastards, the REO, the Rotary clubs,

they were, and we kind of lost them as well.

So we haven't replaced that human,

we've thrown out the best along with the old.

or the worst. ~ And I love that sense of,

you know,

power of women and the power of men,

See.

Leave it in the power of being defiant.

the fire and the Red Tent.

Right. ~ passing on elders had on taunt.

I knew their role

They knew their role, right. And it was specific,

you know, we could train the hunters and we could train young men

to be respectful of the, of, of the,

Be respectful of the...

of the, of the world, the environment,

connection, and of course women's business in Australia,

Yeah. ~

have indeed the wisdom of indigenous peoples,

right? The Australians, the, ~ first nations people,

they have.

secret men's and secret women's business,

right? In many ways, the matriarch is the most important person in some of the mob,

you know, some of the mob's business,

right? Because they're in charge of the family.

They're in charge of the heart.

They're in charge of the legacy,

the, know. So I think there's lots to learn even in the history we've discarded

as not being modern, right? And when you sit and talk to people,

We

who have another way of thinking,

have another way.

we grow, we can acquire that, right?

Yeah.

And what we do instead, because somebody tells us to hate,

is we condemn and troll people who are different instead of what

we should be doing is inviting them and growing from their contribution.

What we should be doing is keep blocking.

That's a little high level, but ~ I believe that that's

part of

of, of who I am, who I've become.

Right. And, Maslow Abraham Maslow's,

~ pyramid, right. Where we had the fundamental building blocks of life,

you know, food, shelter, ~ safety.

And then you climb the pyramid to get to self actualization.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Well, he was, he was even more impressed with his second pyramid,

which was an inverted one. And it was,

he called it the being.

pyramid. So when you are self actualised,

you're able to step into being more.

You become a part of the community,

part of the human race,

a part of the universe, right?

So you would cease to become actualised and you would start

to become actualised that you would start.

to become completely connected.

So that's one that they don't share too often,

Mm-hmm.

but that was Maslow's last work.

Um, and that's where I think I've,

I've got to the, I've been climbing that pyramid.

Now I'm looking at the, at the pyramid beyond and saying,

Hmm.

how can I be more? How can I be less,

but more, you know, how can I,

Hmm.

and, technology can be so enabling for that because we're here,

we're talking and where's we're feeding off each other.

You know, we're able to connect energetically,

consciously.

We're able to inspire each other.

You you've inspired me to think and to expand my view and hopefully

Mm-hmm.

I can do something similar and you're on the other side of the world,

right? So yeah, it's possible.

Hmm.

And I've met Maslow's other triangle,

but not as much detail. And I'm going to take that for a walk this afternoon,

find a podcast and listen to that because there's magic there,

isn't it? It's, yeah.

I was going say you've

individuate, you've managed to get out of that complete survival,

starting to thrive, become somebody and then like,

I can give back. I can be more than just take.

I can start to share, empower other people,

everything that we've been talking about.

It's so hard. Right. Cause like,

you know, um, sitting here and letting go of things you've believed.

Cause belief is what we know to be true values of what we know are important,

Yeah.

right? Just, you know, to quickly sort of throw a very quick definition.

So we believe that money is important to us that material things represent,

Mm.

You

um, validation. We believe that.

We believe

that ~ you did.

~ you need to give to get

right. ~ you, we believe that we are individual separated,

We believe that we are individuals separated,

that we need to defend ourselves from the world,

that we need to defend ourselves from the world before we let anyone in.

right? Before we let anyone in so that we treat boundaries as walls,

So that we treat boundaries as walls,

not gates, right? ~ all of those beliefs need to be changed and what,

not gates. All of those beliefs need

to be changed. To allow more expansion of your life,

what, you know, to, to allow more expansion of your life,

you're not changing them because you're a,

you're not changing them because you're an

you know,

~ an angel, right? You're changing them because you get more out of life

angel. You're changing them because you get more out

when you experience more, when you bring in more things,

Hmm

when you allow them to flow in and out according to their own.

Right. when you go with the tides

of life and because you're being,

Because you're one of the members of that kind,

~ one of the members of that tide,

right? You're flowing with it.

you're fine with it, there's no force,

There's no force. There's no.

there's no...

Conflict there's no barrier right all you have to do is to learn to is

~ yeah.

to float and enjoy it right so what I love is this idea that

Hmm

~ There's even a scientific name.

There's a name of for the study of being it's called Ontology right and it's

Mm-hmm.

I used to I used to say something and not believe what I was saying

you

and I saw Amy Cuddy's TED talk one time where she says

~ say it to you, become it. Right.

And so I sort of embraced that.

Yeah.

I just went, it wasn't like, wasn't trying to,

I, I recognized that I hadn't got to that level of openness yet.

So when I would say to somebody,

~ I need like kids.

I love you, not your behavior.

Yeah.

That was always a sort of conscious competence.

I knew I should say that, but I just wanted to smack him across the year.

And I'll find this one.

Right. Right. I had not caught up at a heart level with

Hmm.

that concept. How do you let go of the need?

When you've had injustice done to you,

how do you let go? How do you let go of the belief that they've violated

you because they've taken something physical from you or they've invaded your space?

How do you let that go? How do you meaningfully change your attitude,

your belief about that? It's not easy.

It's dark, it's easy.

You're sitting there and it's all right.

Me and you chatting on a podcast.

I can tell you I've that or until the cows come home.

Mm.

But you know, when, when, when push comes to shove and

I have literally been in the firing line,

when I feel that violation as a real event occurring to me,

I go back to what's conditioned and I hate or I want revenge

Mm-hmm.

or I want valid, you know, justification or,

you know, I want to see them suffer.

Like I feel like I Gosh,

It was.

my goodness. When you can work on that.

~ that's, that's when you start to unravel some really deep

And I started, believe it or not,

this, this journey of trying to unravel my,

my aggression and my anger and my condemnation.

I started on road rage. ~ Hamish,

you wouldn't know what that is,

right? But I'm sure you've seen a huge.

no. Never heard of road rage. No,

never sworn at some fucking dickhead driver swerving in front of me in my life.

Never hit the horn and done this to him.

Never.

Where'd he get his license mate?

Right. From some friggin cereal packet,

Absolutely.

right? No, go, you know, hand your grandmother's license back to your goose,

right? Because like you can't drive.

Yeah.

yeah, no, absolutely. And, you know,

it was, ~ it was that senselessness of it.

Like we are angry because we're afraid and that fear that's

Mm-hmm.

the men that goes to the point of shame.

Why are men shaming?

themselves and others because they cannot deal with being afraid.

Hmm.

And that goes right back to even the fear of death.

So a few years ago, I got really sick.

Mm-hmm.

I had sepsis. And at one point I,

I was lying down. I had, I was in a pretty bad way and I

had a lot going on. had, you know,

wounds and, you know, and I felt like I was wearing a body suit of lava.

Right. You know, you're in such pain.

And I remember being so tired.

~

Cause I couldn't sleep and I couldn't think in this fog of pain.

had no drugs weren't working. I had no idea how to deal with it.

And the world, you know, I kind of created a bubble,

you know, from the sort of,

of resilience and trying, you know,

while I was trying to journey through grief and,

you know, I, so I didn't have a lot of close people who,

you know, would, you know, feed your chicken soup.

you

~ so I'm sitting there just dealing with this and

City man just dealing with this.

I felt this pain in my left side,

you

right? And down my arm. I thought I'm having a heart attack as on top of everything.

Cause sepsis sort of breaks down all your systems,

Hmm

~

right? So, and, and I just said,

I really should get to the hospital.

There was during COVID and the hospital was a disaster and I just,

I couldn't raise a trot. So I just.

said, Oh, and I thought I contemplated the idea of the consequence of

the action I was about to take,

which was to go on a roll over and try and take another couple of pills and

see if I could sleep. And if I was having a heart attack,

that might be the end of me. Right.

And at that point, I just said,

look, I'm okay with that. Right.

I'm, I realised that I'm going to make a choice.

and

it's a couple of, know, identity.

afraid of the consequences because I'd been through this whole process

I've been through this on the process of being able to start with.

of being ill and struggling and contemplating

my own existence, whether I choose it or not.

Hmm.

And I realised that if I chose to roll over and sleep,

~

that was probably more of a life choice than going to the hospital.

And so I did. And I woke up thought about,

you know, woke up thankfully.

And the next day I thought about that and I recalled the concept

of Memento Mori from the reading the Stoics,

right? The sense of that's my moment

and

terrified or I wasn't turning away from it out of fear and there

was such freedom in that and that was the beginning of me accepting strangely that

I could do more in the world right because you know the consequence of

not doing it was death and that was okay let me push right up until that barrier

right you know and if it came tomorrow or next week or in ten years so be it

think

And that was, and I think that's an important journey for men to have because

we hang on to stuff so vigorously.

So in relationships, men don't commit and then they jump in.

in relationships they don't commit and they shop in so they are devastated

So they are devastated when relationships break off,

right? They don't have a plan B.

Right. And what, what are men,

Mm-hmm.

why do men cheat? Right. Why do they sabotage?

Why do they work? They love their family and they rationalize providing

for them by not being with them.

~ All of these challenges

Hmm.

are about the misunderstanding we have about who we are

and how safe we are. That's where I've got to.

Gosh, it sounds like I've done something clever,

Hmm.

but I doubt that. ~

But I love hearing the sound of my own voice.

Sorry I've inflicted.

I could listen for a lot longer.

We've got an awful lot of fantastic content,

a fabulous conversation. It's been super.

We will have to do this again.

There is no doubt about it.

yeah, no, absolutely. Been so joyful,

~ to chat with you and, ~ you know,

I, I, I do pod podcasts for Kintsugi Heroes,

which was, is just about, it's not about me.

I'm not look, you know, it's about offering a platform for people to share

a story because so many humans need to hear stories.

Right. And they need to hear everyday stories.

Yeah.

They don't need, you know, like sometimes,

Thank

you know, celebrity hat people.

have good stories to share or,

but we also need to hear the story of Bert,

who raised 14 kids and loved to fish on Sundays because

he found the secret to make life joyful.

He found the secret.

And often the people we look to,

they haven't got that secret. They're no better adverse.

they're no better at this. And what I think of

And what I think of

consumer heroism is just...

my Kintsugi heroes, which is the Japanese

art of putting crockery together with gold mortar.

Yeah.

Right. So Kintsugi means that that pot is more beautiful,

more valuable than when it was whole.

Hmm.

Right. The fact that our scars give us that value.

Right. I think that's the stories that you're helping bring to the world.

Right. And hopefully I can too.

Yeah.

And I like to

I like to support men. greatest thing in my life now is my kids are doing well.

I've got a granddaughter who is just delightful if I ever get

to see her because

now young parents these days require an awful lot of checks before you actually,

before you actually get vaccinated.

you've got to get vaccinated and all that stuff before you can check

in with your grandkids these days.

But what I love about,

You know, my life has conspired to put me into a place where I don't need much

at all. Right. I know. So, you know,

Hmm.

all of that, you know, seven,

you know, six figure salaries and investments and,

know, you know, I lost my home when I was mad and I'm pleased now that that happened

because it's freed me up to just do like just to have a conversation.

No need for anyone to thank me.

No need for anyone to pay me. No need for anyone to,

you know, to have any obligation at all except for them to go on.

And maybe they, maybe they heard something that was,

will help them resource the next tough moment.

I think life is that simple, isn't it?

At the end of the day, it's a little bit love,

a little bit fun, a little bit of connection,

a little bit of safety, and stories,

Bit of

Yeah, absolutely. Could not agree more,

Mm.

my friend.

Well,

John, this has been a fabulous conversation.

Thank you ever so much. We'll definitely get you back on in weeks to come because

I suspect you've got more things to say somehow,

possibly.

I just warming up.

No, I might appreciate it. It's been wonderful.

Thank you for being so generous in your time and,

and your affirmation. really appreciate it.

Talk soon.

Good stuff, thank

you. Well, everybody, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation.

That was John, quite a remarkable human being,

definitely coming back. You'll definitely hear more from him.

So if you like the show, if you like what you heard,