Episode Summary

Ian chats with an outstanding Separation Coach for Men, Tamir Berkman. Tamir and Ian produced an excellent conversation about guiding people, especially men, who had lost their way and needed to get back on track and be more directed.

Don’t miss:

• Tamir shares his experience with coaching men through their separation and incorporating equine therapy as he does so.
• Tamir shares a good understanding of horses and how they reflect human energy.
• Going from being unaware to being more aware of yourself and your surrounding.
• Understanding the steps you need to take in the journey to self-discovery and healing.
• Acknowledging that communicating your grief is entirely okay, natural, and healthy.

About The Guest:

Tamir Berkman

Tamir helps separated men sleep better, gain clarity, and move forward - in seven minutes of Zoom sessions. He is a coach specifically tailored for men going through divorce/separation. He helps by providing practical tools and techniques to grow confidence, reconnect to your masculinity, and communicate clearly.

He creates a good understanding of separation as a wake-up call for men to gain insight into the most important thing in their life. A man’s self. He guides them to embark on a journey of empowerment and take control of their future.

As someone who had experienced going through a separation in the past, Tamir shares the lessons he learned and became a coach who will help you gain confidence, grow inner strength, and enjoy healthier relationships with yourself, your kids, and your future romantic partner.

About the Host:

Ian Hawkins is the Founder and Host of The Grief Code. Dealing with grief firsthand with the passing of his father back in 2005 planted the seed in Ian to discover what personal freedom and legacy truly are. This experience was the start of his journey to healing the unresolved and unknown grief that was negatively impacting every area of his life. Leaning into his own intuition led him to leave corporate and follow his purpose of creating connections for himself and others. 

The Grief Code is a divinely guided process that enables every living person to uncover their unresolved and unknown grief and dramatically change their lives and the lives of those they love. Thousands of people have now moved from loss to light following this exact process. 

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Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work. I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

Welcome, everyone. And welcome this week's guest to me Berkman to me, how are you? I'm very well. Thank you. Thanks for having me. You're welcome. I love the glow. Yeah, we were just talking about before we came on. Why the divorce cowboy? Why cowboys specifically?

Tamir Berkman 1:23

Yeah, thanks. Well, I always loved horses. And I did a few things within like dressage and trail and polo and all the things. And when I got into what I'm doing now, which is coaching men, guiding men through separation. I thought, wow, that's gonna be great. And it's going to be great if I can do it my own way in the paddock with horses, and yeah, combine it with equine therapy. So that's that's the vision of it. And that's, that's the first explanation. And the other explanation that is a little bit deeper that I'd like to share is that I was watching this show this Netflix documentary about the Cowboys, the guys that are you know, doing the rodeo with on bulls. Yeah. And that was amazing. Like, this was the hottest one of the hottest jobs in the world. And I'm going Wow, these guys are actually their job is to fall down. It's 99% of the job is to fall down and they getting back up and dancing themselves and going back on the ball. So I went you know what, that's that's pretty much a good analogy for separation and divorce, it feels like you get thrown off the ball, I got thrown off life is throwing me off and what I need to do to dust myself off and keep going. So that's that's the cowboy

Ian Hawkins 2:52

and eventually get back on the ball. That's right. Love it. I'm particularly curious about the equine therapy. Is that something you're already doing within the business? Or is that more of a longer term plan?

Tamir Berkman 3:08

Yes, I finished the course. And it's it's called Equine Assisted Learning. And what I'm doing now is working on my practicals. So it means that I'm doing 10 hours. So I invite men to come have a paddock session for free. Yeah. And yeah, be one of the 10 people that will help me get that qualification. So I've done a few of those.

Ian Hawkins 3:33

Nice now what I have heard is that that no one or nothing reflects our energy better than a horse. So please do explain. You'd be working with horses or your life. It sounds like can you explain that in more detail. So people understand the nature of that, that learning and how it actually works?

Tamir Berkman 3:53

Yeah, so first of all, what we need to be aware of is that horses are a prey animal. Interesting, right? And and we're a predator. So we're very focused on a specific thing on the prey because we want to hunt it. The horses have a 360 holistic view of their world because they have right it's biology. Yep. They also need to be really good in checking and sifting through intentions, and really figuring out quickly, what is happening, what the intentions of that thing and do they need to run. Run the hell out of it. So horses are first of all very aware of their surroundings, very aware of what's going on and very aware of other emotions and intentions. And the way a lot of the time that they're doing it is that they actually sinking their heartbeats together. So the herd will sing their heartbeats, then when actually a horse over there is sensing danger, their heartbeat is going to start getting more intense, and then all the other horses can feel it immediately. Amazing. Yeah, amazing. And that's happens in the paddock with humans as well. So a lot of the people that are even a little bit scared or a little bit anxious, when they come on, and they just stand just close to a horse, that relaxation will start happening. And the second part of that is that horses are also very present. So that's the biggest teaching of a horse is how to be present, because a horse doesn't care about the past or the future. They don't have judgment, they don't have resentment. They're just leaving in the now. So that connection with the heart that living in the now is just making him relax. And then there is the mirroring, then there is the mirror, and which is kind of like magic, it's really hard to explain. But a horse is always going to give me the lesson that I need. Because they so in tuned with emotion and energy.

Ian Hawkins 6:25

Brilliant. Humans also have that capability, just not as innately built into us for our survival. Because life's become way too comfortable. I'm sure it would have been like that. Back when we didn't have to depend on like we were prey to right. And it is possible to get back to that place. So So what are some of the experiences you've had yourself? In that environment? Like what of what is the what is the horse shown you that maybe surprised you? And then also, I'd love to hear any stories you've had with taking someone out there and the impact it's had for them as well. Hmm.

Tamir Berkman 7:10

Yeah. So look, I had a lot of beautiful experiences and amazing life lessons from horses. Because I was doing it for a while. One of the times that I just went into the paddock and I was just I was sitting somewhere in the paddock. And my favorite mayor came over. And she just put her head around me. So she kind of like put me really close to her chest, right with her head here. Yeah. And this was just like opening a tab. I just started crying just like uncontrollably. Like for a minute or two. And she just released that she was just like, yeah, get rid of that. You've got something that you need to release. And it was just amazing how she she actually held space for me, right?

Ian Hawkins 8:09

Yeah, the image I get is it's like a mother holding a small child.

Tamir Berkman 8:15

Yeah. So it's, it's that it's the energy, it's their size, and therefore they're allowed, like they have big energy field. And they can hold space this way. Yeah, and every lesson is amazing. I, I made another horse when I was doing my course and delay and the lady that works with him. And they're talking about it as a partnership. She says she's the facilitator. She's the translator. He's the practitioner.

Ian Hawkins 8:54

I love it. So I actually

Tamir Berkman 8:55

And so what was the impact for you?

It is something that I felt in the energy. So I felt very relaxed, I felt very calm, I went to some sort of a meditative state. So I went into meditation. So he was holding space for me to get to do that, to be able to release to be able to hear the messages from him. And the big message was that he was feeling my doubts, and he was going, Look, you're on the right path. Don't worry, just keep on doing what you're doing. Don't look at the outcome. Don't look at the, you know, the goalposts or whatever, just keep showing up. Keep doing it. And it was exactly the right thing that I needed to hear at the time.

Fantastic. I'm, I'm thinking about like, at the moment, just my own experience, you know, you go up to the side of a paddock where there's a horse, and sometimes I'll come straight over, and that my mind goes to when I'm on holidays, right? So you've probably got good energy then. But there are other times when you're like at the fence, and you like call the horse over his calendar and go, I'm not going anywhere near you. So it's really fascinating that that's, you know, like, it's not just about their ability to mirror but it's their, that that heart connection. I wonder how much of that you then apply a similar way to how you are providing a similar service to men when they are going through this divorce process?

Yeah, there's so many lessons that I received from horses that I'm bringing them in my practice, like for example being present, right? Listening without judgment, actively listening, holding space, these sorts of things our horses are doing just because their horses without even thinking about it. We need to do it proactively.

Absolutely. So tell me what's Is there a pattern like when when men come to work with you? Is there a pattern of the same sort of thing going on? Are there different challenges that all divorced men face? Or is it completely unique? Everyone's own experience?

I think it's a yes. And a yes. I think it's both. Yeah. Right. So everyone is going through basically the same human emotions. Yep. That there'll be a set of emotions, everybody will go through them. Everybody will hate the same pain points of separation in a different way. Right. So I'm talking about emotional roller coaster talking about the drama, The Drama Triangle, the victim, the prosecutor, the rescuer. And I'm talking about the identity crisis moving from I'm a married husband, provider, dad to Oh, who am I? So everybody will experience these in different stages. I guess what it's different is the level of the drama, and where they are in the process.

So how do you help them to see where they are? Because I'm sure they've like anyone who's been through a divorce, there must be an element of drama they can recognize. But is there a part of that that they're not seeing? Is that part of it? Like he bringing awareness to that? Like, how do you start that process for them?

Yeah, so so the other element is the client. ability and in reason for changing? Yep. Right. So it's, it's easy if the man decided, yes, I need to change. I need to learn new skills I need to grow because obviously what I'm doing is not working. Yep. It's harder if it's not the case. The first step is emotional awareness. Yeah, getting in touch with emotions. saying it's okay to get in touch with emotions for a man identifying emotions, then sitting with emotions quite shitting emotions.

Yeah. I wonder how many well maybe you find the same is that when you learn all these skills, and then you show and then you're teaching men these skills, it's like, do people have these moments of like, if only I'd known these 10 years ago, 20 years ago, like, How different could my life have been?

Yeah, yeah. I had a few clients that in the first session were blown away. Just because it was the first time they were able to, they were supported to get in touch with their emotions as a man. And they went, Oh, wow, that's that's actually pretty cool. I got a lot out of that.

Yeah, good. Yeah. So if someone's like, obviously, you're not going to work with every single man who's going through divorce. But if someone's looking to work with you, what, what are the sort of specific areas that you focus on that you are able to help them with? Because they are a friend who connected, connected as Julie, she's more the financial aspect and making sure that you've got all of those elements set up. So what's your take on it? And I imagine that's from your own experience as well.

Yeah, so I'm focusing on the emotional challenge. For me, separation is an emotional challenge. First of all, yes, it's a legal challenge. Yes, it's a financial one. But if I can focus on the emotional, the legal and the financial will be a lot better. Yeah. So the first thing that I'm focusing on, is to understand what happened where the man is, and then making sure that the work we do is balancing his emotional state with his ex partner, emotional state. So both people are in the same emotional space, there's an equilibrium and balance so they can start figuring out the rest of their lives, right, the future of them their relationship, their evolving relationship to co parenting their children. Yeah, you don't want to do that from a place of emotional imbalance.

Yeah, absolutely. I'm actually just drawn to a thought of a client I worked with some years ago, we were mainly going to be focusing on their their sporting prowess, but it ended up being more around the his own separation. And for him, he was stuck in the space around blame and frustration from from different things that had happened. And wasn't necessarily seeing his part in that because of like, steal from the herd, which isn't completely normal and natural human reaction. I think anyone who's been through big grief, that's usually the default. So is that something that you find? That is a common place like, or is it to depend on the circumstances?

Yeah, it depends a little bit. So depends on who initiated the separation.

Yep.

Which statistics say it's 70% women. And so my experience is that my ex partner initiated the separation. So I know what it's like to be the dumpee. That person has

gotten done here.

And that's really different. Right? Because it will change a little bit. How the first of all the grief cycle? Yep. All right. If I'm initiating a separation, I'm well more advanced in my grief cycles, and the person just hearing the news. I had months or years of thinking about it. I finally made a decision. I can tell them now. Guess what, they're just starting.

Wow. So that's, I hadn't really thought about it that way. But that must be the main chunk of the problem is that one person like it's money guessing, but I imagine it's not something that people take lightly. It's not a spur of the moment decision. They've usually planned it in their head made made sense of it, and then the other person is eager to catch up. Wow. Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

So they're not in the same place, right? It's not the same place in the grief cycle. It's not the same place with the emotional balance with their emotions, and then add on top of that, that women usually have better emotional resilience or have better tools, or at least feeling that it's okay to do emotional work.

Yeah, my experience is that that women will more likely open up to their friends about the big stuff. Whereas men tend to not want to whether it's not wanting to burden them or worrying about judgment, like I don't know if you've experienced this, but the amount of men that have said to me, I haven't really told anyone this. And I, like I'm honored to be able to have that space for people. It's also just a reminder to me that like how challenging it is, because of all the stigma and, and people's own perception of what's Okay, and what's not, I'm sure you must have to deal with a lot of that sort of thing.

Absolutely. Yeah. Men were, we were bred out of our emotional intelligence. Yeah. Right. Since since we were boys, I've heard like, you know, don't cry, don't cry like a girl. showing emotions is not something that you do. Vulnerability is weakness. Yeah, right. Showing that you're vulnerable is weakness. So, of course, I didn't even have the opportunity to learn tools and techniques to deal with my emotions. I was trying to get away with it. You know, he asked him well, okay. How do you feel? It's either okay. Or shit? Yeah, that's the two feelings. regulary

Yeah. And generally the feeling like shaping we we cover that up and just say, yeah, things are okay. And not bad.

either. Okay, on our back. Yeah, yeah, that's the range. Yep. And what is happening? Is that because of that may not missing out on superpowers.

Yes.

Right. Because it's not something feminine. It's not something for women. It's something that hey, my emotions are my guides. And if I'm not listening to them, I'm missing out. On all that knowledge.

100%. And I'm really, I'm really passionate about this myself as well, because it's, it's the full human experience. And when you can learn the tools. It's exactly right, it becomes a superpower. So tell me, how has it become a superpower for you to me?

Wow. You're just talking some hail here. It's amazing what happens what happened to me when I went from unaware to aware right, that's that's the biggest kind of like, growth that's the biggest step. Becoming aware of my emotions, thoughts, actions, actually means that I'm in control. I'm the boss anymore by old habits, things that I bought as a child trauma, feelings, thoughts. Now I'm in control. So it means that I can do so much more, I can be so much more present, I can show up as a better father. I can show up as a better boyfriend as a better partner, as a better co parent. Because I'm self regulating, because I'm aware because I'm catching this shadow right when it pops up.

Fantastic. superpowers. Yeah, that to me what you said there about like, you get your control back. Because when you go through any grief, divorce would be no different. There's so much that is out of your control and that you do you spiral into a place of well, I can't control this. My previous guest was talking about when his daughter was sick and it was like the most helpless and out of control that he felt because that's just you just can't and being able to get your control back. Wow, what a what better super power than that to feel that peace within yourself that you're in control of this? Not controlling others but in control of yourself. Powerful.

Yeah. And it's so masculine, right? Yeah, being in control, being more focused, have more clarity. Being the boss of my emotions instead of them taking me for a ride. That's That's powerful.

That is wow. So not only helping them through the divorce, but you're helping them to thrive as men going out for the into the world for the rest of their life. Or I must give you so much satisfaction.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's the plan right? The divorce and separation is just the catalyst just opportunity. Just may be the Have a shake up that I know I needed to do this.

And as difficult as it can be to realize that these be moments of grief often are the greatest catalyst for change moment. And while the moment many of them we, we wouldn't want it or wanted it to have been that way. Yeah had often prompts us or pushes us or shoves us into actually making the changes that we've always wanted to make.

That's right, separation is an opportunity. It's an opportunity for a second life or a do over for change for growth. None of these would have happened. Yeah, we've I wasn't going through preparation.

It's a good point. It's a great point. So I want to backpedal a little bit, as I like to do just to just to talk about the different elements of your life that all contribute, right? They all sort of come to a head and those bigger moments of our life. So I mentioned before we jumped on, I mentioned grief and the different light moments from your life. And you said, well, living in Israel, it's kind of a given. So I can't even pretend to understand, except that I know that it is a part of the world that's been experienced war for for the longest time. So what was that experience like for you? You mentioned that you didn't even associate it with grief. It's just how it was. But maybe just to give people a bit of an insight for those who don't know what that experience would have been like for the first 28 years of your life living in Israel?

Yes, so war is part of life. And after a while, it's not even war. It's just like life. Yeah. Right. So the wallpaper is just all even if missiles coming down, and you need to go into shelters and go to school with a with a mask. And that's not like a COVID mask. That's just a it's a proper mask for you to to avoid being poisoned. Yeah, then. It's just part of part of life. So so the grief is something that because it's so entwined with life, it's not even something that is was on my radar. It's just all around me all the time. It's just like in school, and there's stuff in the news about people dying, and you're expected to go to the army when you're 18. So yeah, it's it's

just life. I remember her, I remember someone saying that. It's like when from us who've grown up in the western world in, in relative comfort. We get so invested in people in these war torn countries. And we think, you know, I must be this and it must be that it's like, much like you just describe people who have come from there, say, well, well, actually, that's just what we knew. So the people within it are dealing with it so much better than us who couldn't imagine having to go into that space, it's another great reminder of the comparison is not is not a benefit. Like, I'm sure if you throw you through someone like yourself from there, well, we're gonna get to that into into our culture, then it's a it's a chakra, and it's different areas of getting out of your comfort zone, which are going to have more of an impact. So we'll come back to that because I want to, I wanted to hear more about like, so at 18 You, you have to go into service. Like, I know, for generations that that's just been the case for different times in our history. But that's still the case today. Like you have to serve. Wow. So was that again, was that just one of those things? That wasn't scary? Because it was just something that was just part of life?

Yeah, this is just the journey of young adults in Israel. So you know that you finished school at 18. You're going to the army for three years, boys, three years, girls, two years. And then you go into travel, and then you start uni. And that's just what you do. That's just how society works. That's the journey.

And so for those of us who never will can't even comprehend what that must have been like, what like is it? Is it something you're okay talking about? Is there anything from that experience that that changed the way you looked at the world?

Yeah, absolutely, I started the journey as a very passionate, patriotic, young man to do well, I worked on my physical stamina, I was running, I was doing all of that. And I really wanted to do well.

And I didn't really realize that first training in the army, basically, they're trying to break it right, the goal is to break it completely down and build you up as a soldier. Yep. And that was, yeah, one of the toughest things, I've done my life, going through basic training. Not seeing home for four weeks, five weeks, six weeks, and then coming back for the weekend, and going back to the army. So it's not cutting of harm cutting of friends, as well. And just, you're in a different type of environment completely. And then the, after about a year, or year and a half in the army, came the realization and came kind of like the awareness of hey, what am I really doing here? What is this really about? Do I really want to do i really like it? Is this does this make sense? And yeah, this was after a couple of life threatening situations. Yeah, and then just a realization of Wait a second, just, I'm just gonna stop and ask a few questions.

And are you asking those questions of yourself? Or do you actually then actively seek out answers from people above?

I was asking them for myself.

And what answers did you find?

Um, I realize that I'm not really comfortable in following orders. I'm not really comfortable not asking why. I'm not really comfortable not knowing what is the big picture? And what are we doing here? And why are we going there? And why are we now supposed to find these guys? Basically questioning what I was fed my entire life.

And is that normal? Or was that unique? Like what a lot of young men going through that process? And coming to that same realization? Do you think or not?

I think some do some time. So it really individual really depends. Some people do very well in the army, right? There are people who make the army their life and they're loving it, and just quit on them.

I'm just wondering whether there's like, as you go through these generations of, of young men who have served Is there are there people then coming out that it's actually creating a whole new way of living over there because of people's experience?

I'm not look, things change, but they change very slowly, especially in the state government army level. It's still, Israeli is still a country that experience a lot of violence, and sometimes war. So the army is really important. There's a lot of money going into the army. It's still, the Army gave me a lot of good things as well, right? A lot of I've benefited from being in the Army. Especially knowing that I can do anything that I want, I can do anything because I'm capable of so much more. Yep. That's something a really good lesson that the army taught me. So I'm also grateful for that opportunity. But for me, it was in about the midway through I started asking questions, and I started going, you know what? Maybe that that decision in my frame of mind and my mindset needs to be changed a little bit. I think I'll change it. Because it's no longer serving me.

Early training, you said basically, they're breaking you down. Like how did that impact you?

Oh, I wanted to die. I remember myself sitting there actually contemplating just like, What am I doing here? I can't get out. Yeah, taking my own life sounded like an option.

Wow. So it's, it's because mentally that You're just so fried

mentally, physically, emotionally, everything.

Wow. And so this is compulsory. But is there any counseling of any kind off the back of

it? Look, there are the commanders who are there to their job is to support you. And to break you in the same time, but also give you some support. Right. So I went to my commander, and we had a chat. And that was helpful. So I felt supported. Other than that, yes, there are some services that I'm able to tap into. Obviously, when you're an infantry in some sort of remote base, you're not going to enjoy that service. Maybe in the next 24 hours, maybe you'll have to wait a week or something.

Yeah, well, again, incomprehensible for us, that have grown up in a very different environment. And so could you share with us what that was like? Well, what what was the catalyst for you to move from Israel to Australia?

Um, I guess it's, first of all, that that AMI part was eye opening. So I discovered a few things about myself, right? When

I'm put into this situation, things come up, and I'm learning things. So that's good. My dad was born in Melbourne. So I always had this Australian connection. I always knew that after the army, everybody's doing their big trips, right? A lot of Israelis are traveling. And I knew that I'm going to go to Australia. So that really was the connection.

Was there any intention and when you came, or is more just to come and experience it? Like, was a disk to escape Israel? Like, What? What? What thoughts?

Yeah, pretty much, pretty much just, hey, I'm gonna go as far as I can, for as long as I can. To just, I didn't really know what to travel to meet people to see places. Yes, yes. Yes. To have experiences.

And so what was that experience? Like? Like? Was it a shock to the system initially, or was it more like a holiday at first, and then and then the reality sort of sets in later.

Um, it was, it was a mix. I think, because I was traveling by myself, I had some friends that I went to Japan with before that, and we were working in Japan, selling jewelry on the streets with her, which was interesting. And then coming to Australia by myself, it was it was interesting. It was I needed to figure things out. Very, very quickly, and being with myself quite a bit. So it was a bit of a mix.

And what were the challenges around that, like, having to figure things out quickly, like was, was it? Was it stressful? Were you feeling isolated? Like, or had you build up a level of strength and from what you've been through that you're you're able to sort of push on like, how did that play out?

Yeah, first of all, a different culture. That I didn't know I didn't understand. I remember getting fired from from a few jobs. My first jobs you know, as a backpacker is like, maybe a kitchen hand or or a Busey busboy or pick up packer, things like that in Queensland. And I think because I was I had the army experience. I had that kind of like self confidence or self esteem to go like, I don't want to be treated that way. So and I showed that, and they didn't like it. I didn't have you? Quickly.

Okay, so you're talking about so you go into these jobs, and you're standing up for yourself instead of just, you know, do this do that

and seeing how we do things like why are we doing this this way?

Wow. Unfortunately, from my experience, it's all too common in lots of businesses in Australia. It's just how we've always done things but I That doesn't necessarily allow space for growth. Right? That's right. So, how long do you think it took you to actually feel some level of comfort living in Australia?

Wow. I think it took a couple of years. Really. And I remember the shift. I was comparing all the time. When I came here.

I was comparing everything. And you know, I grew up in Tel Aviv in Israel. Tel Aviv is the biggest city. It's very European. All the clubs are there. It's a 24 hour city. And, and when I'll compare it to Melbourne, and Tel Aviv was winning. What am I doing here, then? Yeah, I'm point I just needed to stop comparing and go. It's not better or worse. It's just different. Yeah. And that's what it is. And when I got that mindset, my perspective changed. Then I was, it became so much easier.

Hmm. But that to accompany a good couple of years to get to that point. Yeah, must must, must have been a battle those first couple of years if that was the constant conversation in your head.

Absolutely. It was, it was tough.

So fast forward now to your separation. So you said you described it as the dumpee. Almost tongue in cheek? You said like, because you hadn't been prepared for it? What What was that experience? Like? Was that like, was it shock? Like, or did you? What was a kind of the that will actually make sense? Or what was what is it like?

Yeah, so shock, denial. First of all, yeah, I went into a long period of denial. That was, and behind that was fear, from the future, fear from the stigma, what other people will think, fear for myself? Or how will I do this for my kid? And also a lot of shame. So I really saw that as a failure. I was I failed in life. So that really strong sense of shame. And fear kept me in denial. So I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my parents. I was frozen. So I didn't act. I didn't. I couldn't act on anything. So it was basically just frozen in time for almost two years. Whoa, still in the same house in the same bed?

Just talking about it, how are we going to do it? What are we feeling? Maybe we can save it? Maybe we can work on it?

So that concept of failure, is that like something that's played out for your whole life? Is that something that came off the back of the army? Is it like, is that a cultural thing for Israel? Like you can't go to keep persisting with things can't fail. What where does that sort of real frustration come from?

I think it's probably my expectations of myself. And what I received from my parents, my parents had a great marriage. Great relationship. And that's how I thought my relationship will be like, so I disappointed myself and disappointing them. That was the thought behind. Yeah, and I think that's where it stems from really.

Hmm. And what was your parents reactions? Like much different to what you actually probably feared? Yes.

was much different. They were great the board and they actually went to seek professional support for them how to support me,

or how good which was

amazing. And yeah, provided really Yeah, the love and support that I needed at the time and also my siblings, my sister, my brother.

That must be that must be one of the key things that you help men with to see that that because the like you said the stigma. You know, you're thinking you about all of the different people, we create all these different stories about what people must be thinking. But ultimately, the people around us just want the best for us, right?

Yeah, yeah. And it is a scary because that separation and divorce has such stigma. Yeah. And it feels scary. And it's very individual. Right. So I can I can say that my, my co parent parents didn't accept it, as well. So it's, it's well as individual, and it's about them really, right. It's what they carry and their

stuff. Do you are you still able to have a relationship with them?

First of all, they're in Israel. Okay, so our families are in Israel. So I don't really need to, and not really interested in having a relationship with them. Yep.

Okay. Make sense? So, as you've gone through that separation, like, what was different in life that I'm sure there were so many things that you just weren't expecting? Like? Let's start with with things that weren't so good. Like, what sort of unfolded in the aftermath that you were like, not prepared for?

Hmm. So yeah, so our relationship went on for 10 years. So it's moving out of the house physically, like that physical act of moving out? Is the act of basically it's all right. Like, that's the

that's the really the finality,

decision or in finality. That's, that's where it all becomes real. That's where I needed to shift to be a single parent, single man. And deal with all that. What I was really interested in is okay, how can I make this the easiest transition for myself and for my kid, and my ex as well, right? Because her being okay is part of part of my life. So I'm not responsible for her, but I would like her to be

a functioning mom to make it. Yep. So yeah, so it's really about just starting life from scratch. Suddenly, I'm

back to where I was kind of like when I was maybe 22. Leaving in a just a two bedroom apartment. Yeah, needing to buy furniture needed way cutlery. You know, it's obviously there's a bigger questions, but there's also just the day to day.

For some of the documents I've been through, I can remember having that conversation with myself, just guy. How on earth did I end up here? But how did I get to this point? Is that kind of what it's like having to go back and buy furniture and, and cutlery like basic stuff like is like, What's that process? Like?

There is a lot of that. There's a lot of that questioning. How did I get here? I want to understand, I want to get more clarity. That sort of thing. Is it helpful? Probably not. I think that what was really helpful for me is to get going with my self discovery, self healing journey. Learning new things, learning more about me. That was the biggest light points, the biggest eye openers, right figuring out Oh, wow, I'm a people pleaser. She what is that? Let's research it. Let's learn more about it. Really? Okay. That makes sense. Ooh.

Yeah. Now wondering over here. Yeah, you think you're doing the right thing, but actually doing everyone a disservice?

I never knew this about myself. I was 45 I'm 47. Now I was 45. And I didn't know shit about myself.

It's confronting isn't it? But also going to go

Yeah, sorry. Keep going. I was also Yeah, I

was gonna say but it's all So one of the most freeing things right? When you have the awareness that you can then change it.

I think really, that's what saved me. That's what saved my life. That going on all. That's so cool. I can actually learn more of that. What else can I learn about myself? So focusing on that, instead of all what happened? And all that in the past, I can go there, but with a different with a different perspective. So the perspective is not all what happened in the past what I do what she did is, oh, what are the kinds of things that drove me to make these decisions? All? Right, I picked her.

Yeah,

I married her. I offered. I wanted to get married. I love this person. Why did I do it? Ah, okay, maybe because I wanted to save her. Maybe because what else was there? Let's check it out. Wow. things make sense. So starting to see the lights, I didn't understand more about myself. starting to make sense, right? Oh, no wonder I chose her. Because that's what my parents did. And that's what my mom did with my dad and blah, blah, blah. And that's what I did with former girlfriends. There you go.

See the pattern, then you can break it? That's right, because it served me know. How do I change? Fantastic. So was there was the moving out of the house like a look at the spark? Or was that actually a bit of a downtime? Was there another moment of like, of a catalyst to actually get like, I need to take that action? Why? How did you go from this dark place to actually then getting into this space?

One of the worst nights in my life?

Yeah.

So we started dating while we were set in the same house.

That must have been interesting, weird, all of the above.

Yeah. It was all of these things in and there was one night that she my ex went out and she didn't come back. And I just tried to drown. I just I just wanted to go to bed. And I used things to get me to go to bed like alcohol and smoking cigarettes and just feeling miserable. And yeah, not really feeling sad sadness, and grief, I guess.

And then a depth that you hadn't experienced before. That was so

challenging. I haven't experienced for a long time. Yeah. And not like that. So after that night, when I was kind of like looking back, she she came back all smiles and No, everything is okay. And we had a three year old my daughter at the time. And I just thought is, is this how I love myself? Is this how I treat myself to make myself go through this? That's, it's like, I hate myself, right? It's like, yeah, I won't let anyone treat me like this. Like I treated myself that night. So I have a choice. Do I want it to happen again? No way. So this is what I communicated. I said, Look, I will not I cannot go through this again. And I love myself enough to go that's it. I need to get out of the house. So I'm getting out of the house. Why Wow,

now tell me if this is not okay to ask. But like when you say like drown yourself like you like was part of your loss. Like I was going to drink myself to oblivion?

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, I'm just gonna I want to drink so I can just pass out. Because Because I couldn't fall asleep. I couldn't go to bed. Right. I was all I was listening to. Oh, is she coming back? Is this car her coming back? I just wanted to fall asleep already.

Hmm. So you logically didn't want to be still attached. But you just so you were so much that you couldn't even get to sleep? Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. And living in the same house. I can move forward. Right? Yeah. It's not possible. That was the catalyst to moving out

to me, can you share for maybe any men who have been through divorce or going through separation divorce, anything like that, like what? What would be the key messages for them to be able to hear right now to help them to, to be able to move forward? And do so in a way that's going to be most beneficial for them for their partner in for the children if they have any? Hmm.

First of all, a message of that it's okay. It's okay to for this to happen. It it's going to be okay. Right, many other men and women went through this. And actually, it's up to you. It's up to you, like the separation maybe wasn't your decision or your choice, but how you deal with it is your choice. And the only way to deal with it, if you if you want to make a positive impact, if you want to your future to be a healthy future is to work on yourself. Yeah, because we can't change others. We can't change outcomes. The only thing I can change myself, therefore, if I change myself, my reality will change.

And he does. And that's great advice for anyone going through any sort of the aftermath of any sort of grief is exactly what you said. It's taking back their control, right? Being in control of your life again.

Yeah, and, and grief is an interesting, really interesting stage. Right, because we don't have a ritual for grieving a relationship. It's something that just hit me. When I was feeling at one point, I was really feeling drained. And it was just going through a swarm. And I didn't have energy. And my mentor was saying, Are you sure you're not grieving? And I'm like, Oh, yeah. Yeah.

It's a great point.

Yeah. So giving yourself time to grieve. It's okay to grieve, grieve.

Yeah. And we go through these moments of grief, sometimes every day, little little moments of, like, many deaths are part of us, like we let go of a part of us. And like you said, we don't have a ritual, like, even even, like, what we do, in terms of funeral doesn't even seem to be enough in terms of compared to what so many cultures do, where, where they are able to process this big stuff, which is why we end up with all this residual stuff that keeps carrying on through our life that continues to play out all these different patterns. So So what a gift for you to give to the world to be able to pass on this knowledge to men who are going through it and be able to pass on your experience and, and particularly the you know, the work with the horses to to help them to let go of things because to me, the beauty and the the absolute power in the working with horses, it's just coming to me now is sometimes as men, we don't necessarily want to open up. We don't want to talk about things, but we don't want to feel how we're feeling anymore. And be able to go and have that moment where you just need to be present. And allow the magic to happen. Like there's just so much in there.

Absolutely, you spot on that. That's that's the that's where the magic happens. Right? The only thing that I need to do when I'm entering the paddock is just be open. That's it.

Yeah. So good. To me, is there anything else that you would love to share about your story or advice or, or message of hope for people out there whether it's around divorce or just around life in general? Yeah, I

think is it's what I said before. In carrying that message of it's okay to grieve. It's okay to feel it's okay to communicate feelings. It's actually healthy, right to communicate and share. That's means that I'm taking it out of me it's not longer in me So it's a healthy thing. It's a superpower. Yeah. And once you do it a few times, whatever, whether it is with yourself with a horse in a men's circle, with a friend in a podcast, with Ian Hawkins, it feels great.

100% and I really only you to me if they're having the courage to come into this space, because I mean, you might just think, well, it's just, you know, it's a conversation. But to me it is it's courage for us to be getting out there and telling our stories and for you to come in here and talk about such specific things which would carry pain and what what I know is that that's beneficial to you. It's beneficial to me, and it's beneficial to everyone who's listened to this. So thank you, I appreciate you. And yeah, thank you for sharing so generously.

Yeah, thank you so much, Ian. One of the things that really helped me when I was separating, is listening to other men who had been there done that just made me feel that I'm not alone, that things are going to be okay. And yeah, I think we just need to talk about things. And we'll say them out in the open. So thank you for that opportunity.

You're welcome my spacing.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.