The Bobby Miller Story: Paddling, Teaching, and Finding Purpose in the Flow

Episode 1: the Bobby Miller Story: Paddling, Teaching, and Finding Purpose in the Flow

What drives someone to spend their life navigating whitewater? In this premiere episode of Following Waters, host Brett Mayer sits down with professional paddler, teacher, father, and outdoor educator Bobby Miller to explore that question from the inside out.

Bobby has been paddling Class V rivers for over two decades and is known for his smooth, powerful style on steep creeks and big water alike. But behind the drops and lines is a story about balance—between risk and responsibility, family and freedom, and adrenaline and awareness.

Together, Brett and Bobby dive into:

How Bobby got into paddling and what kept him in it
How he balances kayaking with parenting and teaching
The evolution of East Coast whitewater culture
What it means to live a full life on and off the river

Whether you're a paddler, parent, or just someone trying to live with purpose, this episode offers deep insight into how the river can shape who we become.

Connect with Bobby Miller

About Following Waters

Brett Mayer, creator, is a lifelong environmental educator, whitewater kayaker, and policy advocate with over two decades of experience on and off the river. He is the host of Following Waters, a podcast about the people, places, and stories that move us—through paddling and through life.

Brett has taught at leading independent schools across the country, including Hotchkiss, the Episcopal School in Alexandria, the Landon School for Boys, and currently Carolina Day School in Asheville, North Carolina. He owned and operated a paddling school and student travel company, and has spent years guiding young people into meaningful relationships with wild places.

As the Policy Director for the American Canoe Association, Brett represents the paddling community in partnership with Outdoor Alliance, working to protect access to public lands and waterways nationwide. His graduate thesis on why people paddle—based on interviews with elite Class V paddlers—revealed a simple truth: people stay on the water for friendship, stewardship, and purpose.

Through Following Waters, Brett shares the deep lessons the river teaches—about bravery, connection, and living an unconventional, wholehearted life.

This episode is brought to you by the American Canoe Association (ACA)

For over 140 years, the ACA has been supporting paddlers and protecting access to rivers, lakes, and coastlines across the country. Join the movement, take a course, or become a member at americancanoe.org.

Take advantage of a free kids membership with the purchase of a new adult membership during the month of July, 2025!

Brett Mayer: 00:00:10

Welcome to following waters.

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This is our inaugural episode.

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Thrilled to be here.

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This is a podcast about the

people, places, and stories that

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move us on and off the water.

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I'm Brett Mayer, and I've spent most

of my life chasing the current through

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rivers, classrooms, and communities.

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show is about what we discover when

we follow where the water leads.

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we're kicking things off with someone

who's been at the center of some of

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the wildest whitewater in the country.

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Bobby Miller.

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known for his bold lines, big drops, and

a deep love and enthusiasm for the sport.

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He's a top tier Whitewater

kayaker, a dagger, team paddler.

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More than that, though, he's a teacher,

a dad, and someone who's thought a lot

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about why we keep coming back to the

water, through fear Fatherhood and change.

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In this conversation, we talk about

Bobby's life, on and off the water.

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What got him started, the things that

inspire him to paddle, moments that

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tested his limits, the experiences that

made him stop and reflect, and how his

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adventures on the water brought his love

for paddling and parenting together.

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a story of grit, grace, and

staying grounded in the current.

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Before we dive in, a quick shout out to

the folks who make this podcast possible.

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This episode of Following Waters is

brought to you by the American Canoe

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Association, the voice of paddle sports

in the United States for over a century.

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Whether you're a first time paddler or

a seasoned expedition kayaker at the

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a CA works to ensure safe, accessible,

and clean waterways for everyone.

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They offer training, advocacy, and

community for anyone who believes

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in the power of the paddle.

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To learn more or get involved,

visit american canoe.org

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or check the show notes at the end.

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Thanks to the a CA for supporting

this podcast and for standing up

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for the rivers, lakes, and coasts.

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We all love.

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And with that, Bobby, let's dive in.

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What's up,

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Bobby: Nice.

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Brett Mayer: How you doing?

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Bobby: I not definitely stoked to be here.

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Brett Mayer: so stoked to have you here.

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I've thought about doing this podcast

for a long time, so I honestly could

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not think of a, better first guess.

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Thrilled to have you.

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What have you been up to lately?

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Let's start there.

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Bobby: Oh, I literally just

got back from North Carolina.

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We set up a new training.

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Helene ruined, the Green Narrows

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Brett Mayer: Totally

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Bobby: It had changed it, but it ruined

the ability for the Green Narrows to have

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whitewater releases on a daily basis.

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And so we had always done green

training the previous six years.

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That was a program where we trained

people to, come down south with

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us and run down the Green Narrows.

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This year we were trying to come up with

ideas of what we could do to replace it.

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I was looking at the Southeast release

schedule and they had a, Nat Hill, a

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Cascades release on Friday the 20th,

and a cheo release on Saturday the 21st.

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And I realized the cheo was a step

down from what the Cascades or the

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Green Narrows was, but we still thought

that would have an appeal to people.

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So we created a program where

we worked with people prior

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to that for a couple weeks.

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We did, one day on the

upper y and the top yuck.

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And then another day where we

caught Red Creek of all places.

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I was super stoked to catch one

of my favorite wilderness runs.

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Brett Mayer: that's

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Bobby: And then guide people down it.

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Yeah, we had an incredible

day and then we did it.

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It was a super awesome experience.

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Like that's one of my all time favorites.

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And then to be able to show a

group down and, you know, just

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have an awesome day out there.

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My buddy Jesse Pullum, he,

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Brett Mayer: Nice.

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Bobby: Helped out with the program the

whole time and he was very instrumental

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in us being able to do that because,

just with, just the, the setup we

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wanted to have three safety boat.

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We had another guy named, KLA, who's a

young paddler, good safety guy for kva.

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But with three of us, we were able to

take on a challenge like Red Creek.

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I was really excited about that.

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A couple of people actually said that

the trip down Red Creek was their

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favorite day of the whole training.

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Including the North Carolina trip.

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Brett Mayer: Oh

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Bobby: And,

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Brett Mayer: How is the

level on Road Creek?

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Bobby: It was friendly

for taking a group down.

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We definitely could have used more

water, but the low level didn't really

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seem to, negatively affect anyone's

outlook on the day, which was great

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for me to hear because, I never have a

problem with low water, but I know my

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tolerance is higher than some people's.

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So, I never know when I get into one

of these low water runs with, paddlers

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who I don't paddle with all the time.

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I never know how they're

gonna feel, but everybody was

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pretty excited about that run.

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The run is so good.

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It's hard not to be excited.

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Even at low water, the good section which

is about three miles of, good rapids, was

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still really awesome, even with low flow.

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Brett Mayer: Awesome.

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Bobby: a great time there.

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Then we hit the fish ladder, Jake

Falls, and then the Cascades that

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Friday, the show the next day.

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And actually on the Cascades

Day, we hit a little section

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on the CIC called Super Slide.

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That was really fun.

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I also ran White Oak Falls at the put in

of the Cascades, which, is probably my

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favorite drop that I've run in a while.

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Very low volume slide,

hits a wall, drops a lot.

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lots going on.

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Brett Mayer: I think we,

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Bobby: Sure.

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Brett Mayer: we glitched out on,

let's see, keep browser tab open

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recording this site files we're uploading.

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sorry, you stopped recording.

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I don't know if it was your

end or my end or just like the

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program, but here, let's see.

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Bobby: My end, I see 6 35 and counting.

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Brett Mayer: It kicked back.

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I'll just trim this out later.

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Okay, so you've hit a couple things.

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I think you left, off on the super slide.

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Bobby: Okay.

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Brett Mayer: That's where

our psych saw it cut out.

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So you guys hit super slide.

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Bobby: Yeah.

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The super slide, like we put in at

this boiled peanut stand, we didn't

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actually know the name of the drop,

so we were just calling it boiled

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peanut gorge for the sake of amusement.

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There's actually some pretty fun drops on

that, section leading into super slide.

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So it wasn't just the super slide.

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We scouted that I ran that and one of the

other guys in the group ran it as well.

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Then we booked it over to the Cascades.

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We had a couple laps there.

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That was a really fun section.

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I expected it to be fun,

but it was actually faster.

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It had a little more water in it than

the 250 CFS released they had advertised.

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We estimated maybe it was three 50,

but guiding a group through with, small

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eddies and fast moving water, made it

more challenging than we anticipated.

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overall things worked out well.

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Everybody loved that section.

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before we left, white Oak Falls is

right there, just above the put in.

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I had been planning to run it all along.

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we drove up there after last

and, we got outta the van.

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Jesse's like, oh, let's,

let's leave the boats.

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Let's do a quick scout.

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I'm like, no.

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there's no way I'm not running this.

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So I carried the boat up there.

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I had a, that drop is a zone

dog drop, if there ever was one.

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It's shallow, it's

manky, it's super steep.

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You gotta bank off a crazy wall

and then go down this maybe 15,

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20 foot drop into a shallow pool.

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It was definitely very exciting.

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I loved that drop.

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I would've carried up and run it a couple

more times, but it was starting to get

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dark and we needed to get to dinner.

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So we booked it out of there after that.

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But, yeah, that was super exciting.

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That's probably my favorite drop

that I've run in a long time.

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Then we did the chio the next day.

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That was fun.

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And then, a little side amusing story.

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We took the KVA sprinter van up,

and rode the dragon's tail, I

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believe was what it was called.

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Brett Mayer: Yeah, yeah.

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Bobby: It's like all curvy.

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We did the first few miles of it,

there were motorcycle groups coming

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around the curves, almost touching

the side of their motorcycle on the

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ground, like you see in the movies.

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And I'm like, holy crap,

we are really outta place.

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We were able to get turned around

and head back after we went in a few

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miles we didn't ruin anybody's day.

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We didn't get in anybody's way.

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So I was stoked to not have someone

really fired up about whipping these

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corners fast and then coming up behind it.

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Flo Keva Sprinter brand, having not ruined

their day, but, yeah, it worked out well.

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But then the last day of the trip we

decided to run the New Green and that

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was also a big highlight of the trip.

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The new green is really fun.

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I was surprised at how much fun it was.

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I figured we would have some good

times in there, but that there'd also

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be some mank that wouldn't be great.

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But pretty much from bride

all the way to Below.

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Sunshine was an outstanding

section of River.

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that always was an outstanding section of

River, every bit of it I thought was great

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the new Rapids that are there are awesome.

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The new Gorilla is not as good as the old

gorilla, but it's still really exciting.

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There's a lot going on there.

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Brett Mayer: Yeah.

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Bobby: The run out was

kind of manky and, Low.

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We had a couple portages around low volume

channels, but Hammer Factor was great too.

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That last section before

Hammer Factor was fun.

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That was an awesome day

everybody loved that section.

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Brett Mayer: Fish Top is pretty crazy

when you see fish top, isn't it?

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Bobby: For sure.

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Brett Mayer: that is.

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Bobby: Yeah.

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I mean, even put in at, big Hungary

was crazy once we got down the trail

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too, where the river was just how

much stuff had piled up and had been

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removed and yeah, it was crazy looking.

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Brett Mayer: That's crazy.

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There's so much in there.

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That was the question that was

like, what have you been up to?

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That was like, Bobby's last five days.

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Bobby: Yeah.

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Brett Mayer: It was like a

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Bobby: For sure.

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Brett Mayer: it's like a

lifetime of kayaking pack.

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the past five days just hanging

out, casual, some zone dog

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drops, like, the new green.

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Just got it all in there.

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That's amazing.

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how old were the kids that

you took to do all that?

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Bobby: So we had seven paddlers and

two of 'em were like, one of 'em is 15.

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We had a 15-year-old girl

in the group, named Annabel.

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And then there was a boy

named Will, who I think is 14.

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He is an outstanding slalom paddler and

really coming along as a creek boater.

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The other five were adults, most of them

had been in my, cheat elite, race training

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Brett Mayer: Awesome.

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Bobby: And then they transitioned

right into southeast stouts.

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It was a great group for sure.

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They were all solid paddlers.

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The green especially took a lot

of teamwork 'cause we weren't.

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Able to run everything.

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Some of the scouts were kind of

intense and, a couple people didn't

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run some drops, which the portages

were, not easy, but we used a lot of

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good teamwork and made it through.

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I had an outstanding staff

with, Jesse again on that trip.

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And Sophie Renoso the, Mexican,

Olympic paddler, she was an awesome

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addition to the trip as well.

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Brett Mayer: That's

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Bobby: it was a great time.

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Brett Mayer: So it was you, Jesse

and, Sophie Renoso leading the trip

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Bobby: Yeah.

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Brett Mayer: Yeah.

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That's so cool.

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Bobby: No, I was bummed Steve-O couldn't

come, but, he missed a really good time.

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That's for sure.

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Brett Mayer: that's awesome.

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For those of you who don't know, you

basically started in Washington, DC did

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the fish ladder on the Potomac River

and made your way out to West Virginia.

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Red Creek is a wilderness run.

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That is truly outstanding.

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About 12 miles.

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You have to hike in your boat like

a mile and a half, if I remember.

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Bobby: Somewhere a mile.

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Brett Mayer: Takes a

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Bobby: We have a new hike in,

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Brett Mayer: that.

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Bobby: there's a new hike upstream,

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Brett Mayer: cool.

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Bobby: you get maybe a mile and a half

extra of paddling, but the hike is about

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a mile instead of a mile and a half.

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So you shorten your hike a little.

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Brett Mayer: nice little short, hike,

but it's one of the most stunningly

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beautiful places on the East coast.

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The Dolly sos.

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I can put some of that in the

show notes for people if they want

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to check out what we're talking

about, it's a truly special place.

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from West Virginia down, further south,

in and around Asheville, North Carolina.

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Which was impacted by the

hurricane this past September.

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A lot of those creeks and

rivers are really changed.

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so there's the chia and then you

guys did the nana ha cascades both,

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which have recreational releases.

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And then I think you mentioned

White Oak Falls, on a tributary

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of the Nana ha cascades that has

a pretty sweet waterfall on it.

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Then the new green is referencing

the Green River narrows, is homes to

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the kind of the biggest steep creek

racing event, in the country for

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years.

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This past year was the 24th.

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Am I correct on that?

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Bobby: I'm not sure.

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Brett Mayer: I have to double check.

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but that river was significantly

altered by the hurricane and so

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everyone's now calling it the new green.

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That's really cool that you guys,

an amazing trip for all of those

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folks that are just, learning

creaking and getting out there.

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That's really awesome.

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You had mentioned one thing that's

a zone dog drop, so that's maybe a

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good segue did you start paddling?

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What's your paddling origin story?

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How did you get into the sport?

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Who were your early mentors?

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What was that like for you?

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Bobby: Sure.

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So I got started in kayaking.

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My sister and I had a rivalry.

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She is one year older than me, and my

dad took her canoeing and I was jealous.

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I wanted to go.

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I bugged my dad to take me as well.

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my first canoeing experience was on

the Capen River in West Virginia,

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which is a very scenic run, it has

these three ledges on it that, to a

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beginner are pretty big, maybe two to

three feet in height, for someone who's

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never paddled, they were pretty stout.

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And we got a photo taken

of us on the second one.

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That was like my prized

possession at nine years old.

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This photo of my dad and I canoeing

over this, three foot ledge.

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I thought that was really cool.

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I canoed for several years with my dad.

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But, ultimately I wanted to

get into a kayak having the

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: 00:14:21

Shenandoah and Potomac River.

300

: 00:14:22

So close.

301

: 00:14:23

I did a lot of paddling there, I'll never

forget my first time on the Shenandoah

302

: 00:14:28

in a kayak, 12 years old, running the

very first Rapid, which is class one.

303

: 00:14:35

And I remember getting, I hit one

of the small waves at just the right

304

: 00:14:40

angle where it splashed me in the

chest, maybe even got my face wet.

305

: 00:14:44

My first thought was

this is just a class one.

306

: 00:14:46

If I'm getting soaking wet in class

one I can't wait to run class 3, 4, 5.

307

: 00:14:52

This is the sport for me.

308

: 00:14:54

On day one, I recognized this

was something I wanted to

309

: 00:14:57

do for a really long time.

310

: 00:14:59

Brett Mayer: That's

311

: 00:14:59

Bobby: And,

312

: 00:15:00

Brett Mayer: 12

313

: 00:15:00

Bobby: I was 12 when I started kayaking.

314

: 00:15:02

Brett Mayer: Cool.

315

: 00:15:03

Bobby: And, so my dad,

316

: 00:15:04

Brett Mayer: That picture, when

you were nine you had this picture,

317

: 00:15:07

what was it about that picture

that made it your prize possession,

318

: 00:15:10

Bobby: it was a sizable ledge

that you could tell, we were

319

: 00:15:13

going over something substantial.

320

: 00:15:15

my goal to run something big.

321

: 00:15:18

Brett Mayer: E

322

: 00:15:18

Bobby: off the bat I'm

looking at magazines

323

: 00:15:20

Brett Mayer: Even at

324

: 00:15:21

Bobby: Seeing waterfalls.

325

: 00:15:22

Brett Mayer: that's awesome.

326

: 00:15:24

Bobby: So it was just like,

327

: 00:15:25

Brett Mayer: That kind of

desire to do that stuff even

328

: 00:15:27

at nine years old, was there,

329

: 00:15:30

Bobby: absolutely.

330

: 00:15:31

Brett Mayer: All right.

331

: 00:15:31

So you get hit you know, at 12 when you're

in a kayak now that like, this is it,

332

: 00:15:36

this is for me, and then what happened?

333

: 00:15:37

Where does it go from there?

334

: 00:15:40

Bobby: I had so many good mentors

that helped me along the way.

335

: 00:15:44

My dad obviously was a big

part of taking me on the river.

336

: 00:15:49

He just has always been someone who

loves nature and got me out there.

337

: 00:15:55

But my dad's also pretty

cautious and patient.

338

: 00:16:01

He is, not one for taking risks.

339

: 00:16:03

Even at nine I was looking to take risks.

340

: 00:16:06

So I knew that I needed to get outta

that canoe into a kayak and start

341

: 00:16:11

really getting on the risk taking road.

342

: 00:16:14

My uncle Skip on the other hand.

343

: 00:16:16

My dad's brother, was a wild

man, and a master of hyperbole.

344

: 00:16:22

He would come back from all these trips.

345

: 00:16:25

He would run Kit Miller, the Kit Miller

section of the north branch of the

346

: 00:16:28

Potomac, the Cheat Canyon, the Lower

Goly, and he'd have these wild stories of

347

: 00:16:33

giant drops, huge waves, humongous holes.

348

: 00:16:38

If you can picture me as a child just

listening to these stories, eating it up

349

: 00:16:42

Brett Mayer: it up.

350

: 00:16:43

Bobby: he was always my kayaking hero.

351

: 00:16:45

Brett Mayer: Awesome.

352

: 00:16:46

Bobby: initially I wanted to

be like my uncle Skip, with my

353

: 00:16:49

kayaking and just chasing adventure.

354

: 00:16:52

Even to this day, i'm still that child

chasing my uncle Skip, I told him this.

355

: 00:16:58

A while ago that even though my

skills long ago surpassed his,

356

: 00:17:03

he never progressed beyond the

lower golly, cheat canyon level.

357

: 00:17:08

Which, are class three, four runs.

358

: 00:17:10

To me, I'm still that child trying

to imitate my uncle Skip, and I'm

359

: 00:17:15

still trying to reach that level.

360

: 00:17:17

Kayaking to me is really

the fountain of youth.

361

: 00:17:20

circling back to feelings I had

as a child when this all started.

362

: 00:17:24

And so revisiting that childhood

wonder, is part of what keeps

363

: 00:17:28

me going with the adventures.

364

: 00:17:31

Brett Mayer: That's so cool.

365

: 00:17:32

The awe you probably felt, getting

hit by that wave at 12 and then

366

: 00:17:36

listening to your uncle Skip stories.

367

: 00:17:38

You know that just being this thing

that's so deeply embedded, it just

368

: 00:17:41

keeps you, trying to return to those

same feelings over and over again.

369

: 00:17:46

Bobby: Absolutely.

370

: 00:17:47

Brett Mayer: That's awesome.

371

: 00:17:50

Bobby: My dad and Skip were members of

a Hagerstown Maryland based canoe club

372

: 00:17:56

called, the Mason Dixon Canoe Cruisers.

373

: 00:17:58

There was a guy in that club named

Ron Shanholtz he wasn't a big risk

374

: 00:18:02

taker, but he was outrageously skilled.

375

: 00:18:06

He took me on several trips and worked

with me so I had my dad introducing me,

376

: 00:18:13

uncle Skip with the wild side of things.

377

: 00:18:15

And Ron with being able to work the river

make your boat do what you wanted, and

378

: 00:18:21

using the currents accomplish those goals.

379

: 00:18:23

He was the one who really introduced

me to that way of thinking.

380

: 00:18:27

another mentor who had a huge

influence on where my paddling went

381

: 00:18:31

because you can't beat the river.

382

: 00:18:34

The river is, is always gonna

be more powerful than you, but

383

: 00:18:39

if you work with the river, you

can accomplish great things.

384

: 00:18:42

He showed me that.

385

: 00:18:43

At a young age getting into

challenging whitewater was my focus,

386

: 00:18:47

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

387

: 00:18:47

Bobby: he was such a kind and caring

person he really showed me how to use the

388

: 00:18:53

river and made it all make sense to me.

389

: 00:18:57

he is just another mentor who

was a huge part of my life.

390

: 00:19:00

Brett Mayer: And that was

early adolescence, like 13, 14.

391

: 00:19:04

Bobby: Yeah,

392

: 00:19:04

Brett Mayer: If I'm following along.

393

: 00:19:06

That's cool.

394

: 00:19:07

Bobby: at that point I had built up

probably by 14, the skills to run the

395

: 00:19:11

upper Y it's not like being a 14-year-old

right now where if you're really good,

396

: 00:19:17

you could find someone to take you down.

397

: 00:19:18

Great falls.

398

: 00:19:19

Back then being 14 and pretty good at the

sport, there still weren't a lot of people

399

: 00:19:25

willing to take you on hard whitewater.

400

: 00:19:27

eventually I met, this guy named Mike

Snyder and Kurt Stover, they were the

401

: 00:19:31

guys who took me to the next level.

402

: 00:19:33

They were the ones who

showed me how to booth.

403

: 00:19:35

They taught me creaking skills.

404

: 00:19:37

And then that was really where, you know,

16 years old and hitting the upper y.

405

: 00:19:43

I do trips on the upper Y with people.

406

: 00:19:48

And I talked to them about how I kinda

live vicariously through the people.

407

: 00:19:52

I guide down the upper Y because

at 14 I had the skills to do it.

408

: 00:19:57

Mike and Kurt pulled out those skills

and really like got me to where

409

: 00:20:02

like those skills I had were able

to just dominate the upper rock.

410

: 00:20:06

So I went from first run down

the upper rock, dominating

411

: 00:20:09

it, not really being scared.

412

: 00:20:11

I tell some of the people I guide down

that river that I'm jealous that they're

413

: 00:20:15

experiencing it from a, lens of, Hey, this

is a big challenge, this is a scary river.

414

: 00:20:19

I never really got to experience

it from that standpoint.

415

: 00:20:23

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

416

: 00:20:24

Bobby: that was really what

allowed me to take off.

417

: 00:20:27

from there it was progressing with

friends as equals rather than mentors.

418

: 00:20:33

Once I got beyond the upper yacht, it was

a lot of just progressing together with

419

: 00:20:37

friends as opposed to looking to someone

and saying, show me how to do this.

420

: 00:20:42

Brett Mayer: Got it.

421

: 00:20:43

so you said those guys, showed you

some of the core creaking skills

422

: 00:20:48

and then you found your first crew

of folks that you were then kind of

423

: 00:20:52

progressing together, it sounds like,

or pushing it together after that.

424

: 00:20:55

Who was in your kind of first, who was

your first crew that you're paddling with?

425

: 00:20:59

A lot.

426

: 00:21:00

Bobby: So initially, there was a guy named

Jeff Nelson and his brother Eric Nelson.

427

: 00:21:06

They were part of the Baltimore Canoe

Club, and they were both also good

428

: 00:21:10

friends with Denver McClure who, was.

429

: 00:21:13

Part of the falling down crew

with BJ Johnson and Clay Wright.

430

: 00:21:17

Brett Mayer: Yep.

431

: 00:21:17

Bobby: I looked up to those guys, but

I hesitate to call them mentors because

432

: 00:21:22

I never spent a ton of time with them.

433

: 00:21:24

I did paddle with those guys, but I spent

a lot of time paddling with Jeff and

434

: 00:21:28

his brother, and there was a guy named

Chris Perino also in the Baltimore Club.

435

: 00:21:33

We were all kind of at the

same level figuring it out.

436

: 00:21:36

Our first upper Blackwater run was

the three of us, Jeff, Chris and I,

437

: 00:21:40

putting on and finding our way down.

438

: 00:21:42

Brett Mayer: what year was your

first upper Blackwater run?

439

: 00:21:45

Bobby: That was 1996.

440

: 00:21:48

when I turned 18.

441

: 00:21:49

My dad

442

: 00:21:50

Brett Mayer: Okay.

443

: 00:21:50

Bobby: this rule that I wasn't allowed

to run Great Falls until I turned 18.

444

: 00:21:55

Brett Mayer: Wow.

445

: 00:21:56

Bobby: I did run big flat.

446

: 00:21:58

Brett Mayer: Nice.

447

: 00:21:59

Bobby: Once I hit 18, I went wild.

448

: 00:22:00

But at 17, if he knew what it

was, I wasn't allowed to do it.

449

: 00:22:04

If he didn't know what it

was, I was in the clear.

450

: 00:22:07

I did run some other creeks that

he had no idea what they were.

451

: 00:22:10

I ran big splat, which my dad

didn't know what big splat was.

452

: 00:22:14

So, you know, I was kinda like working

around him and I, I was a good kid.

453

: 00:22:19

I wasn't the kind of kid who was

gonna blatantly go against something

454

: 00:22:22

my father asked me not to do.

455

: 00:22:24

Brett Mayer: So

456

: 00:22:24

A loophole that allowed you to,

stay a respectable, supportive

457

: 00:22:29

sun but you could still kayak.

458

: 00:22:31

Big splat.

459

: 00:22:31

Yeah, I got it.

460

: 00:22:33

Bobby: for sure

461

: 00:22:34

Brett Mayer: What boat are you paddling?

462

: 00:22:36

Bobby: I was in a new wave, sleek

463

: 00:22:37

Brett Mayer: A new way.

464

: 00:22:38

A new way.

465

: 00:22:38

You were in a sleek wow.

466

: 00:22:42

On the upper B, you're,

467

: 00:22:43

Bobby: I probably ran the upper B

between 20 and 30 times in that boat.

468

: 00:22:48

I loved that kayak for the longest time.

469

: 00:22:51

We did an upper Blackwater day, then

a north work day, and then Jeff and I

470

: 00:22:56

headed down to Fayetteville there used

to be a stark moon shop in Fayetteville.

471

: 00:23:00

Denver ran the stark moon shop.

472

: 00:23:02

We went down to stay with Denver

for a couple days and we show up

473

: 00:23:08

in Fayetteville and he is like, all

right, we're going to run Man's Creek.

474

: 00:23:11

Man's Creek is one of the

gems of West Virginia.

475

: 00:23:14

It's definitely a good deal,

harder than the upper Blackwater.

476

: 00:23:18

And so I'm out there on something more

difficult than the upper Blackwater in my

477

: 00:23:23

sleek and I was able to handle the boat,

but at one point I spun around in a small

478

: 00:23:28

rapid and I fell off a drop backwards.

479

: 00:23:31

And that low volume,

stern, vertically pinned.

480

: 00:23:34

So I had water hitting me in the

chest to where I couldn't reach

481

: 00:23:38

the grab handle on my spray skirt.

482

: 00:23:41

And it was one of those old mountain

surf skirts with the rand, and I couldn't

483

: 00:23:45

get the rand to come off with just

my knees pushing against the skirt.

484

: 00:23:49

I was worried that, I

might drown right there.

485

: 00:23:51

It was later suggested to me that I should

have crawled out through the tunnel of

486

: 00:23:55

my skirt, but that wasn't in my mind.

487

: 00:23:58

I was able to get an air pocket by rolling

over and putting my face toward the stern.

488

: 00:24:04

Denver thankfully hopped out of

his boat and was able to wiggle my

489

: 00:24:07

boat free and get me outta there.

490

: 00:24:10

My paddle was gone, so I

was like, all right, I guess

491

: 00:24:12

I'm walking off Man's Creek.

492

: 00:24:14

Clay Wright was there he was

already one of my paddling heroes

493

: 00:24:17

from the falling down videos, and

he is like, here, take my paddle.

494

: 00:24:21

I'm gonna hand paddle out of here.

495

: 00:24:23

One of those moments where someone

you really look up to does something

496

: 00:24:27

absolutely heroic and hand paddles this

creek that you're terrified to even be on.

497

: 00:24:32

I thought that was a pretty cool moment

498

: 00:24:34

Brett Mayer: That's a

499

: 00:24:35

Bobby: for sure.

500

: 00:24:36

Brett Mayer: That's awesome.

501

: 00:24:37

How old are you at this point?

502

: 00:24:39

Bobby: Yeah.

503

: 00:24:39

At that point, I was in college, so

I was probably around 20 years old

504

: 00:24:45

Brett Mayer: Nice.

505

: 00:24:46

Bobby: but that was the transition point

because as soon as I got home from that

506

: 00:24:50

trip, I traded my sleek in, for a micro

two 40, you know, a real creek boat.

507

: 00:24:58

And, that was when I was like, all right,

I can't keep pushing this half slice.

508

: 00:25:02

Down these steep creeks.

509

: 00:25:03

And so, you know, I, was much

happier running a creek boat and

510

: 00:25:08

pushing the limits in a creek boat.

511

: 00:25:10

And that's something I've kind

of stuck to for, you know, the

512

: 00:25:13

last, you know, I'm 47 now, so

513

: 00:25:16

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

514

: 00:25:16

Bobby: last 27 years I've held

pretty true to that, not taking half

515

: 00:25:22

slices down, real crazy white water.

516

: 00:25:25

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

517

: 00:25:25

Bobby: So

518

: 00:25:26

Brett Mayer: That's probably good advice.

519

: 00:25:27

I know some might not agree,

but keeps you safe for sure.

520

: 00:25:33

Bobby: Yeah, that,

521

: 00:25:33

Brett Mayer: I remember that boat.

522

: 00:25:35

That was a good little

creak back in the day.

523

: 00:25:38

You probably got into some stuff on that.

524

: 00:25:41

What would you say, you're in college,

you're already challenging and

525

: 00:25:45

pushing your limits on some pretty

cutting edge white water at the time.

526

: 00:25:49

And still is really

challenging white water.

527

: 00:25:52

What was that moment

where it was like you ran.

528

: 00:25:55

first kind of big signature,

drop that you're like, whoa,

529

: 00:26:01

that was a big accomplishment.

530

: 00:26:04

Bobby: So my first big drop, and

this is going back into the sleek,

531

: 00:26:08

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

532

: 00:26:09

Bobby: 1996, we took a trip to the

Moose River in New York we get to the

533

: 00:26:16

end of the moose and the moose was fun.

534

: 00:26:19

We get to the end, crystal was what I

had identified as the end of the run,

535

: 00:26:25

but we're floating across that pool

and I see all these boaters downstream

536

: 00:26:30

and there's magilla down there,

537

: 00:26:32

mcGill just looked terrifying to me.

538

: 00:26:35

Jeff Nelson was with me on that

trip we were scouting and very

539

: 00:26:39

few people were emerging upright.

540

: 00:26:41

It was deep enough that if you

got off the lip of the drop and

541

: 00:26:45

you landed close up, you weren't

going to be in any serious danger.

542

: 00:26:49

The center line kind of has this weird

fold, similar to old gorilla where

543

: 00:26:54

the water's folding on top of you

544

: 00:26:56

Brett Mayer: I

545

: 00:26:56

Bobby: and nobody had made that upright.

546

: 00:26:59

Every single person that ran

that had come out upside down.

547

: 00:27:03

And I just decided I was

gonna go for that line.

548

: 00:27:07

And I went in kind of just expecting

I'm gonna roll at the bottom.

549

: 00:27:10

I remember running the drop and

emerging upright, my wife jokes about

550

: 00:27:16

how sometimes I let out, too many

yells after I run a big drop, but that

551

: 00:27:22

was probably the first real zone dog.

552

: 00:27:25

Like, scream, yell of like, just like

553

: 00:27:30

Brett Mayer: So

554

: 00:27:30

Bobby: emotions that I couldn't

even contain inside my body.

555

: 00:27:34

Like just letting it all out.

556

: 00:27:36

That was pretty cool for sure.

557

: 00:27:38

Brett Mayer: That's very cool.

558

: 00:27:40

Packing serves up.

559

: 00:27:41

Its fair.

560

: 00:27:41

Share of those kinds of moments.

561

: 00:27:43

That's awesome.

562

: 00:27:44

So McGill.

563

: 00:27:46

And then how about any initial, early

first descents that you may have done,

564

: 00:27:54

going way back?

565

: 00:27:56

Bobby: Yeah.

566

: 00:27:56

So, let's see.

567

: 00:27:59

New York was A spot that I came

back to for some of my early first

568

: 00:28:04

ascents, which would be an unlikely

place given that I don't live there.

569

: 00:28:08

But, one of my early first ascents was,

they just started having releases on

570

: 00:28:14

the Beaver River and the Moser section

has the big spillway at the start.

571

: 00:28:20

And nobody was even scouting the

spillway at that point in time.

572

: 00:28:25

I looked at the spillway and I was like,

I really want to get a good scout of that.

573

: 00:28:28

So we did the Moser section and then

afterwards I got my crew to go back,

574

: 00:28:34

they were still releasing and we went

back to the spillway I didn't run

575

: 00:28:38

it from the top like people do now.

576

: 00:28:40

My first several runs down that were from

a position just above the second drop.

577

: 00:28:47

Peeling out of that was a

pretty cool moment, just knowing

578

: 00:28:50

I was going down something.

579

: 00:28:51

Brett Mayer: Knowing,

580

: 00:28:52

Bobby: I asked Chris Cole afterwards

and he was like, you're the first to

581

: 00:28:56

go down that he is like, we haven't

even been having Beaver releases.

582

: 00:28:59

I think it was maybe the first or

second year of the Beaver releases.

583

: 00:29:03

So he is like, there hasn't been

opportunities for people to go down

584

: 00:29:06

this spillway at the Moose River

585

: 00:29:09

Brett Mayer: a cool one.

586

: 00:29:10

Bobby: that is like, going down

this high speed slide with the

587

: 00:29:13

big thing at the bottom and

water spray it was wild for sure.

588

: 00:29:18

near the moose is, a waterfall in

the Black River called Lions Falls.

589

: 00:29:23

On the right side of Lions Falls, there's

a runnable series of steps leading to

590

: 00:29:29

about a 30 to 35 foot free fall into

the pool I had scouted that one day

591

: 00:29:36

on the moose, probably a year or two

after the descent of the Moser spillway.

592

: 00:29:41

And, it was a decent level for

it, but we didn't know how deep

593

: 00:29:47

the pool was and there wasn't a

lot of aeration at the bottom.

594

: 00:29:51

So I came down just like my plan

was to launch off this big waterfall

595

: 00:29:57

and, land flat at the bottom.

596

: 00:29:58

I timed everything right, landed flat.

597

: 00:30:01

Didn't hurt my back thankfully.

598

: 00:30:03

Brett Mayer: Nice.

599

: 00:30:04

Bobby: but it was another one where

I didn't know how the landing was

600

: 00:30:10

gonna go and I was just willing

to huck it out there tuck my

601

: 00:30:14

weight forward and absorb the hit.

602

: 00:30:15

that was back.

603

: 00:30:16

The zone dogs days stems from the wwe,

but that may have been the first time.

604

: 00:30:21

I used to routinely, if I ran something

scary that I was excited about, I would

605

: 00:30:27

drop the people's elbow on my kayak.

606

: 00:30:30

I would, get to the parking lot.

607

: 00:30:31

The Rock used to have this

move called the People's Elbow.

608

: 00:30:34

That was, the first time I dropped

the people's elbow on my kayak.

609

: 00:30:38

I was so stoked after running that drop.

610

: 00:30:41

Brett Mayer: that's how

tall is Lions Falls?

611

: 00:30:43

30, 35.

612

: 00:30:45

Bobby: So the free fall is probably

30 to 35, but you have these like

613

: 00:30:49

slide into like steps coming in.

614

: 00:30:52

So it's probably close to 45 to

50 overall that you're dropping.

615

: 00:30:56

Brett Mayer: Got it.

616

: 00:30:57

Bobby: Yeah.

617

: 00:30:58

Brett Mayer: That's a pretty big drop,

especially if no one's done it, you

618

: 00:31:01

know, and you don't know how the hit's

gonna go at the bottom, that's for sure.

619

: 00:31:04

Bobby: Yeah.

620

: 00:31:05

Brett Mayer: So, wait, the people's elbow,

that's a good time for us to talk about.

621

: 00:31:08

Is this where the zone dog comes from?

622

: 00:31:12

The zone dog is like your

623

: 00:31:13

Bobby: So,

624

: 00:31:13

Brett Mayer: ego on the river.

625

: 00:31:15

Bobby: yes.

626

: 00:31:16

Brett Mayer: Okay.

627

: 00:31:16

Bobby: Yes.

628

: 00:31:17

Brett Mayer: I don't think I've ever

seen anyone, do this on the river.

629

: 00:31:20

Like you've got the jersey over

the PFD and you're out there.

630

: 00:31:25

Is that all the time or is that just,

you know, some, it's not all the time.

631

: 00:31:28

It's when you're gonna

go fire up big drops.

632

: 00:31:32

Bobby: I wear the jersey all the time.

633

: 00:31:35

Brett Mayer: You wear the jersey

634

: 00:31:35

Bobby: The jersey is definitely something

that always comes with me on the river.

635

: 00:31:39

I jokingly refer to it as my superpower.

636

: 00:31:42

Brett Mayer: Got it.

637

: 00:31:42

Bobby: I think one thing, to

have longevity in kayaking, you

638

: 00:31:47

gotta find ways to make it fun.

639

: 00:31:50

kayaking sometimes can be if you're

in a season where you haven't gotten

640

: 00:31:55

a lot of rain, things can get to

where it's just not all that fun.

641

: 00:32:00

If you don't find ways to enjoy the river

for instance attaining or play boating,

642

: 00:32:06

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

643

: 00:32:07

Bobby: If you're only set on big drops in

creek boating, I feel like it's gonna be

644

: 00:32:11

hard to fulfill that need all the time,

645

: 00:32:16

Brett Mayer: was

646

: 00:32:16

was that intuitive for

you to figure that out?

647

: 00:32:18

Like you're like, oh man, there's no rain.

648

: 00:32:21

What I really like to do is I get

stoked about running all these big

649

: 00:32:23

drops that no one's ever run before,

it's like these drops aren't running.

650

: 00:32:28

So was it intuitive for you to

figure that out or did you go through

651

: 00:32:31

a period where you're just like,

getting bored How did that happen?

652

: 00:32:35

Bobby: I definitely had a period

of time where I was borderline

653

: 00:32:40

bored with dry periods.

654

: 00:32:42

I was able to fill that with

mountain biking, a brief period I

655

: 00:32:45

mountain biked more than I kayaked.

656

: 00:32:47

Brett Mayer: When

657

: 00:32:48

Bobby: I had a pretty big

injury, like I broke my wrist had

658

: 00:32:51

surgery, missed an entire year

of paddling and mountain biking.

659

: 00:32:55

after that I, came to this realization

that I really loved kayaking

660

: 00:33:00

so much that I didn't want to.

661

: 00:33:03

Take risks outside of kayaking that

might, cost me days on the river.

662

: 00:33:08

Brett Mayer: Yeah,

663

: 00:33:08

Bobby: The play boating end

of things kept me interested.

664

: 00:33:12

My second crew included Joe

Stump fell, if you remember him,

665

: 00:33:16

Brett Mayer: remember

666

: 00:33:17

Bobby: Joe was an outstanding play

boater and we would go play boating

667

: 00:33:21

a lot together that got me through

some very dry times with the creeks.

668

: 00:33:26

I enjoyed that for sure.

669

: 00:33:28

the basketball jersey was

a fun thing I came up with.

670

: 00:33:31

a guy named Sam Dvo who, used

to be an outstanding paddler.

671

: 00:33:35

He was an outstanding team wave sport guy.

672

: 00:33:38

But long ago, he used to live in

the DC area, and I saw a picture of

673

: 00:33:41

him and a buddy of his running Great

Falls in Michael Jordan jerseys.

674

: 00:33:47

And that was kind of where

I got the idea for the,

675

: 00:33:50

Brett Mayer: cool.

676

: 00:33:51

I

677

: 00:33:51

Bobby: the,

678

: 00:33:51

Brett Mayer: That's

679

: 00:33:51

Bobby: the basketball jersey.

680

: 00:33:53

Brett Mayer: Okay.

681

: 00:33:53

Bobby: It was,

682

: 00:33:54

Brett Mayer: Interesting.

683

: 00:33:54

Bobby: I,

684

: 00:33:55

Brett Mayer: You had

some inspiration there.

685

: 00:33:56

That's cool.

686

: 00:33:57

Bobby: I had that inspiration.

687

: 00:33:58

I also had a jersey.

688

: 00:33:59

I've always been a basketball player.

689

: 00:34:01

I've always loved playing basketball, but

I had a jersey that I was never wearing.

690

: 00:34:05

I kind of bought it thinking I was

gonna wear it, playing basketball

691

: 00:34:08

at my friends and then I never did.

692

: 00:34:10

And so finally one day I was like,

I'm gonna start wearing this kayaking.

693

: 00:34:13

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

694

: 00:34:14

Bobby: I was always a pretty good

shooter do you wanna paddle with a guy

695

: 00:34:17

who can ace the nar or do you wanna

paddle with a guy who can knock down

696

: 00:34:20

a contested three with one second

left on the clock When you paddle

697

: 00:34:23

with me, you get to paddle with both.

698

: 00:34:25

Brett Mayer: That was your

saying back then, yourself out

699

: 00:34:28

to new dudes to paddle with.

700

: 00:34:31

What do you think, if you look back at

your paddling career, you had mentioned

701

: 00:34:34

earlier, you liked that feeling of

risk, out on the water and you knew

702

: 00:34:38

from a young age, you wanted to chase

that into the sport what were the

703

: 00:34:41

primary years of your risk taking?

704

: 00:34:45

could you talk to us a little bit about

like, were there times where you like,

705

: 00:34:51

okay, this is too much risk, or things

happen, you're like, I'm drawing back

706

: 00:34:54

or even where are you now in how you

incorporate risk into your paddling life?

707

: 00:35:01

Bobby: So, I mean, my big years for risk

taking, probably were around like I.

708

: 00:35:09

You know, late nineties to early

two thousands, at some point, I

709

: 00:35:14

wanna say 2003 2002, somewhere

in there I had a head injury.

710

: 00:35:19

There's a drop on a creek

called Hornbeck's Creek

711

: 00:35:23

in the Delaware Water Gap.

712

: 00:35:24

And I came off the drop.

713

: 00:35:26

They actually named it Bobby's Falls.

714

: 00:35:28

And I remember entering the drop and

thinking I was lined up properly.

715

: 00:35:34

The next thing I remember is waking

up in the tube for the head, scan

716

: 00:35:38

they were doing, to check my injury.

717

: 00:35:40

Upon talking to my friends, I'm like,

it couldn't have been that rapid

718

: 00:35:43

because I was lined up perfectly.

719

: 00:35:45

And they're like, Nope, that's the rapid.

720

: 00:35:46

So I just caught a weird shelf and hit

my head and had a concussion and I kind

721

: 00:35:52

of dialed it back a little after that.

722

: 00:35:55

That was also right around the

same time when I became a teacher.

723

: 00:35:58

Brett Mayer: Okay.

724

: 00:35:59

Bobby: My early years of teaching,

I enjoyed it so much that I

725

: 00:36:03

didn't want to take many risks.

726

: 00:36:05

So I dialed back the risk taking for a

period then, and then, you know, I kind

727

: 00:36:13

some point, you know, just going on an

inspiration, someone younger than me,

728

: 00:36:18

like Jared Seiler and Evan Garcia, those

guys were starting to run big waterfalls.

729

: 00:36:27

I admired their big waterfall running.

730

: 00:36:30

at some point I was like,

I need to get into that.

731

: 00:36:32

Brett Mayer: that's

732

: 00:36:33

Bobby: I started taking trips to

the Pacific Northwest, and that

733

: 00:36:38

was when I did, OSA Falls, which I

believe is around 80 to 90 feet tall.

734

: 00:36:42

And then Saha Falls, which my

daughter's named after, that's 70 to 80.

735

: 00:36:48

That was actually on my

honeymoon with my wife too.

736

: 00:36:51

Brett Mayer: I

737

: 00:36:52

I remember that.

738

: 00:36:53

Bobby: I had gotten to a point where I

knew I wanted to run these big waterfalls

739

: 00:36:57

and I kind of upped my game there.

740

: 00:37:00

One thing about the 2010 trip, which was

when I ran cusa, I also ran the skate

741

: 00:37:07

park drop, which is about a 50 foot

waterfall onto a skate park style ramp.

742

: 00:37:13

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

743

: 00:37:13

Bobby: I did actually on that trip,

CUSA is scary being so tall, but

744

: 00:37:19

I ran lower Lewis Falls, which is

maybe 40 to 45 feet, it was at the

745

: 00:37:24

highest level I've ever seen it done.

746

: 00:37:28

I've never seen anyone come close

to the water level that I ran it at.

747

: 00:37:32

I remember Brian Dore, another long time

buddy of mine, it was just me and him,

748

: 00:37:37

I'm like, dude, I'm gonna send this drop.

749

: 00:37:39

He is like, all right,

I'll get down there.

750

: 00:37:41

He got an awesome, photo, which ended

up on the cover of American Whitewater.

751

: 00:37:45

And I remember thinking at the top

of that drop, it was scary enough

752

: 00:37:49

that I thought there was a legitimate

chance that could be the end of me.

753

: 00:37:54

I was like, either this is gonna go

well, or I'm gonna get destroyed, at

754

: 00:37:58

the time I didn't want it to end, but

I was confident enough in my skills

755

: 00:38:02

that I thought it was gonna go well.

756

: 00:38:04

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

757

: 00:38:05

Bobby: I ended up, coming down.

758

: 00:38:06

Brett Mayer: that edge there.

759

: 00:38:08

Bobby: Yeah,

760

: 00:38:09

Brett Mayer: of the

761

: 00:38:09

Bobby: it was

762

: 00:38:10

Brett Mayer: not knowing

how it's gonna go.

763

: 00:38:12

Bobby: For sure.

764

: 00:38:12

That waterfall, lands in a pocket where

there's a veil coming in beside it.

765

: 00:38:18

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

766

: 00:38:18

Bobby: you can't see too far

up into that waterfall to tell

767

: 00:38:22

what is going on in the landing.

768

: 00:38:24

Brett Mayer: Yeah,

769

: 00:38:25

Bobby: So I launched off

of it and it went well.

770

: 00:38:29

I came out, dropped the people's

elbow on the boat again.

771

: 00:38:33

That was a terrifying moment for sure.

772

: 00:38:36

That was stepping it up the next

year though, on my honeymoon, Saha

773

: 00:38:40

Falls probably was equally terrifying

but not in a way where I thought

774

: 00:38:46

that was gonna be the end of me.

775

: 00:38:47

It was just scary being there.

776

: 00:38:50

Again, another young guy I look

up to, Evan Garcia was there.

777

: 00:38:54

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

778

: 00:38:55

Bobby: He was running it.

779

: 00:38:56

Fred Norquist ran it after we

did, but initially it was just

780

: 00:39:01

Evan and I listening to Evan and

how he approached the waterfall.

781

: 00:39:06

Being that tall of a waterfall, it

was a bit out of my area of expertise.

782

: 00:39:12

I was still kind of figuring out how

to do those kind of drops, but, he was

783

: 00:39:16

a perfect teammate for that descent.

784

: 00:39:18

We talked through everything.

785

: 00:39:20

It was always like,

this is what I'm doing.

786

: 00:39:23

What do you think is

very much a team moment?

787

: 00:39:26

And we both had great runs off the falls

and, a good safety crew at the bottom.

788

: 00:39:32

Melissa, my wife, was taking video and

photos down at the overlook, and I'm sure

789

: 00:39:37

she was terrified, watching all this.

790

: 00:39:39

But, it was one of those moments

that, just like if I had to pick a.

791

: 00:39:44

Greatest moment in my kayaking career.

792

: 00:39:46

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

793

: 00:39:47

Bobby: off the Sali Falls is it.

794

: 00:39:49

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

795

: 00:39:49

Bobby: but it was one

of the scariest moments

796

: 00:39:51

Brett Mayer: Like, hands

down without a doubt.

797

: 00:39:52

That was the moment where you're like,

798

: 00:39:54

Bobby: Yeah.

799

: 00:39:55

Brett Mayer: I've, that's

my peak moment in the

800

: 00:39:57

Bobby: Yeah.

801

: 00:39:58

Brett Mayer: everything

just kind of came together.

802

: 00:39:59

I think it's really cool, like this

concept, you're in the game for so

803

: 00:40:03

long, and the sports evolving and

changing a lot during those years too.

804

: 00:40:07

Boats got shorter play boating

became a big thing for a while.

805

: 00:40:11

And then kind of that advent of

running big waterfalls, like that

806

: 00:40:15

was kind of pushed for that kind

of like mid two thousands, you

807

: 00:40:19

know, se 7, 8, 9, 10, all the way

through like, you know, 13, 14, 15.

808

: 00:40:24

I feel like that was like

those prime years of really

809

: 00:40:27

kind of pushing the envelopes.

810

: 00:40:28

It was really neat i'm just listening

to you so you're on Hornbeck Creek,

811

: 00:40:32

been there at some of the advent

of a lot of creek boating, really

812

: 00:40:35

challenging runs on the East coast.

813

: 00:40:38

kind of have this accident, you

draw back a little bit and then

814

: 00:40:41

you see these younger guys,

815

: 00:40:42

they were probably seeing what you

were doing, then they took it to

816

: 00:40:46

the next level, and then you circle

back and say, Hey, wait a minute.

817

: 00:40:49

Now I'm looking at these younger guys

and seeing how they're pushing the

818

: 00:40:51

sport and I want a piece of that too.

819

: 00:40:53

And so it's really neat that

you, circled back, to do that.

820

: 00:40:58

Bobby: Yeah, for sure.

821

: 00:40:59

That was definitely the case and just.

822

: 00:41:02

cool for me to circle back and, get

back into that level of kayaking.

823

: 00:41:08

Brett Mayer: yeah.

824

: 00:41:10

Bobby: I often talk about the 2010 trip.

825

: 00:41:12

I sent a lot of big drops and

it got to the point where the

826

: 00:41:19

part of you that feels fear,

827

: 00:41:21

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

828

: 00:41:22

Bobby: I had almost destroyed that.

829

: 00:41:24

Like, to where there was nothing

that would make me afraid.

830

: 00:41:28

I had reached that level where every

drop I looked at, I no longer felt fear.

831

: 00:41:32

After that lower Lewis experience,

everything else, skate park.

832

: 00:41:37

I wasn't afraid going off skate park,

even OSA with its tremendous height.

833

: 00:41:42

I wasn't that scared of it.

834

: 00:41:44

I had dulled the fear so much

that, I was willing to run, almost

835

: 00:41:49

anything at that point in time.

836

: 00:41:51

Brett Mayer: Did you

837

: 00:41:51

intellectually, on a level

that, this is happening.

838

: 00:41:54

I'm literally making myself so accustomed

to doing these things that I'm dulling my.

839

: 00:42:00

Receptor for sensing this is dangerous.

840

: 00:42:03

We feel fear for a reason.

841

: 00:42:05

Bobby: Yeah,

842

: 00:42:06

Brett Mayer: you're like, yeah, I

didn't really have that anymore.

843

: 00:42:08

And so were you able to be like, okay,

maybe I should, might not be emotionally

844

: 00:42:13

feeling this fear, but I probably still

need to dial it back at some point.

845

: 00:42:18

Bobby: I get what you're saying.

846

: 00:42:19

I was at a point where I still

intellectually could look at

847

: 00:42:24

something and see the danger.

848

: 00:42:26

Brett Mayer: yeah.

849

: 00:42:26

Bobby: But the fear wasn't gonna

cause me to not do something.

850

: 00:42:30

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

851

: 00:42:30

Bobby: It was if I looked at

something and said, 'cause actually

852

: 00:42:33

I did a drop or I did a run,

853

: 00:42:36

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

854

: 00:42:36

Bobby: on that same trip, it was

called the Salmon River Gorge.

855

: 00:42:40

It's in Oregon.

856

: 00:42:42

It's also a tributary of the, the,

Columbia River, but it's got a bunch

857

: 00:42:47

of huge waterfalls, big wilderness run,

and at the end of it is an 80 footer.

858

: 00:42:52

That was a drop that I wasn't

necessarily scared to go off of,

859

: 00:42:57

but the lip was so junky that I

was like, I'm not going off this.

860

: 00:43:03

Not because I'm afraid of it, but

because I can recognize that this

861

: 00:43:07

lip could cause me to fall off at an

awkward angle so I did walk that one.

862

: 00:43:14

Brett Mayer: Mm-hmm.

863

: 00:43:15

Bobby: Something like OSA has

a pretty smooth, obvious line.

864

: 00:43:20

The one on the Salmon River Gorge was

more, you would just kind of get out in

865

: 00:43:24

the flow and then hope you didn't catch a.

866

: 00:43:26

Shelf weird as you fell?

867

: 00:43:28

I don't know if there was a line to

hit off that one, whereas if it was

868

: 00:43:31

something where I could see a line, the

fear wasn't gonna hold me back, but I was

869

: 00:43:36

going to be able to pick out that line.

870

: 00:43:38

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

871

: 00:43:39

So it sounds like, in your decision making

matrix, have to have your own, decision.

872

: 00:43:45

Like go or not go.

873

: 00:43:47

And then the fear and the skill.

874

: 00:43:49

there's a place where

those two things meet.

875

: 00:43:52

Bobby: Yeah.

876

: 00:43:53

Brett Mayer: though you had dulled this

fear piece, you were still able to look at

877

: 00:43:57

it from an experience and skill standpoint

and say it sounds like you knew there was

878

: 00:44:04

a okay, I know I can be in control over

that drop, but now that one's too junky.

879

: 00:44:10

My sense of control or confidence in

how controlled I can dial that line in.

880

: 00:44:15

It's too far outside my

range, so I don't do that one.

881

: 00:44:19

Bobby: Yeah.

882

: 00:44:20

Brett Mayer: Is

883

: 00:44:20

Bobby: Yes.

884

: 00:44:20

2010 is the only time in my

life that I actually experienced

885

: 00:44:25

that dulling of the fear.

886

: 00:44:27

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

887

: 00:44:27

Bobby: I've run big drops since then.

888

: 00:44:30

Brett Mayer: Come

889

: 00:44:30

Bobby: You go away from that

lifestyle of just hucking everything

890

: 00:44:35

Brett Mayer: Totally.

891

: 00:44:36

Bobby: That fear returns pretty fast.

892

: 00:44:38

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

893

: 00:44:39

Bobby: So like,

894

: 00:44:39

Brett Mayer: you do?

895

: 00:44:40

how do you, I think very interesting

for a lot of people, you know, you're

896

: 00:44:45

like first starting paddling, right?

897

: 00:44:47

Because fear's all, it's, it's

so relative in so many ways.

898

: 00:44:51

It's often relative to your experience

and skill level when you feel fear on

899

: 00:44:55

a river now, what are some things you

do you have such a depth of experience

900

: 00:44:59

and a high level of skill, but from an

emotional standpoint, you're kind of

901

: 00:45:03

hit with this fear, what are some things

you do to kind of navigate and kind of

902

: 00:45:07

pull that and put the fear in its place?

903

: 00:45:09

Bobby: honestly, making a plan for

what you wanna do in the rapid, a

904

: 00:45:14

plan that you know you can execute,

905

: 00:45:15

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

906

: 00:45:16

Bobby: That really helps me to.

907

: 00:45:18

Be able to say, all right, I can do this.

908

: 00:45:21

I know I'm afraid, but I can do this.

909

: 00:45:23

Even just on a recent, rapid, like

that super slide, on the Calisa, from a

910

: 00:45:30

couple weekends ago, I was still nervous.

911

: 00:45:33

There was a big kicker at the

bottom and we couldn't tell if it

912

: 00:45:36

was gonna be a peon kicker or a

kicker that was gonna launch you.

913

: 00:45:40

there were some boulders

on the right side.

914

: 00:45:43

We weren't sure if you would

then launch in the air and

915

: 00:45:46

reconnect with these boulders.

916

: 00:45:48

That unknown had me nervous, but

ultimately I could see the line I

917

: 00:45:54

wanted to hit and I went and ran it.

918

: 00:45:57

you have certain expectations that you

think should happen and then there's

919

: 00:46:02

certain things that could happen.

920

: 00:46:04

I went with this is what should happen

if I put my kayak here and everything

921

: 00:46:11

that I thought should happen did happen.

922

: 00:46:13

Brett Mayer: Nice.

923

: 00:46:14

Bobby: Experience can help you

be confident that, what should

924

: 00:46:17

happen will happen if you put

your kayak in the right spot.

925

: 00:46:20

Brett Mayer: if you put your

kayak in the right spot.

926

: 00:46:23

Bobby: Yeah.

927

: 00:46:23

Brett Mayer: I think paddling and being

out on the water, being out on river, in

928

: 00:46:27

my life there's just no better teacher,

in terms of taking those experiences

929

: 00:46:32

and translating them to your real life.

930

: 00:46:35

What are some ways or things you've

learned from paddling, over time

931

: 00:46:39

that have really informed how you

live other parts of your life?

932

: 00:46:46

Bobby: I try to.

933

: 00:46:49

Mostly for me, paddling is about

finding peace and happiness.

934

: 00:46:55

Not always trying to find that thrill.

935

: 00:46:58

The way I live the rest of my life,

I try to find things that are going

936

: 00:47:02

to make me happy, and approach things

from a positive, outlook trying to

937

: 00:47:09

find the silver lining in a negative

situation and not reacting too much

938

: 00:47:14

when something doesn't go your way.

939

: 00:47:16

Trying to find peace in everything that

you do and, look for ways to be happy.

940

: 00:47:23

you can't be happy 100% of the time.

941

: 00:47:26

Not everything's gonna go your way

a hundred percent of the time, but

942

: 00:47:30

finding ways to keep a positive

outlook through the challenges.

943

: 00:47:35

Being on a river, you're not gonna

run a rapid perfectly every time.

944

: 00:47:41

If you're on a run with several rapids,

maybe you make a mistake in one rapid,

945

: 00:47:45

but there's always an next rapid with

which you can recover and build back that

946

: 00:47:48

confidence, build back that happiness.

947

: 00:47:50

I kind of put that into

perspective with life.

948

: 00:47:53

Something goes wrong.

949

: 00:47:54

There's always time Another way

that you can build from that.

950

: 00:47:58

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

951

: 00:47:59

I'm a teacher as well and I think

that's a lesson I want a lot of

952

: 00:48:04

my students to hear if you make a

mistake, there's always tomorrow.

953

: 00:48:07

There's always more moments

to learn from the experience.

954

: 00:48:11

Not to panic hang in there, stay in

the flow, and usually things have

955

: 00:48:15

a way of working themselves out.

956

: 00:48:16

if you're in tune with your life, things

generally translate, in a positive way.

957

: 00:48:21

I think that's really cool.

958

: 00:48:24

Have there ever, you know, in your

life, you know, I'm big in a, I'm

959

: 00:48:28

big into the metaphors like Eddie's,

confluences, rapids, and Portages.

960

: 00:48:32

These are the kind of things that

I feel like, you know, in Eddie.

961

: 00:48:36

And a river is a place where you can

find, you know, you can, if you're in

962

: 00:48:40

the flow, you can kind of hop out for a

second and slow things, slow things down.

963

: 00:48:45

There ever a moment in your

life where you feel like.

964

: 00:48:47

Maybe you're stuck in an Edie and you had

a hard time getting out, or, you know,

965

: 00:48:52

not necessarily on the river, just a

place in your life where it was like, all

966

: 00:48:56

right, how do I, how do I get outta this?

967

: 00:48:57

And then maybe how did paddling

help help you figure that out?

968

: 00:49:02

Bobby: one period in my

life, that kinda stands out.

969

: 00:49:06

A couple years ago I had a difficult,

class in my teaching career, by the time

970

: 00:49:13

spring came around and the kids were

getting to the point where they were

971

: 00:49:17

kind of done with school, even though

you still had a month and a half left.

972

: 00:49:21

Things got even more challenging.

973

: 00:49:23

Paddling really helped me keep

a positive outlook through that.

974

: 00:49:28

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

975

: 00:49:29

Bobby: I remember one specific moment

because some of my days at school would

976

: 00:49:33

be bad enough that I needed paddling.

977

: 00:49:37

My wife and my daughter are wonderful

and when I'm with them, that's always a

978

: 00:49:41

wonderful thing that makes me feel good.

979

: 00:49:44

But I also needed paddling to

be something that was always

980

: 00:49:47

positive and generally paddling is.

981

: 00:49:49

But I had a really bad day.

982

: 00:49:51

We went to the top yacht race and got

a flat tire on the way out we ended

983

: 00:49:57

up kind of late for the race check-in.

984

: 00:49:59

Luckily we were able to get our jerseys.

985

: 00:50:01

And then that put us behind

for our practice lap.

986

: 00:50:04

I got into the race and spun out the

race has, that suck hole rapid on

987

: 00:50:12

the top Y, which has a bad sieve.

988

: 00:50:14

It's very last rapid.

989

: 00:50:16

And I spun out above the suck hole had

to catch the eddy and lost tons of time.

990

: 00:50:22

The river was rising significantly.

991

: 00:50:24

the people who went first had

a medium level, and the people

992

: 00:50:28

who went later had a high level.

993

: 00:50:31

I ended up losing to a bunch of short

boats because the, I mean, I probably

994

: 00:50:35

lost 30 seconds catching this Eddie

and nearly going in the suck hole.

995

: 00:50:39

But then I ended up losing to

all these short boats and it

996

: 00:50:42

was just a kick to the stomach.

997

: 00:50:44

I was so frustrated.

998

: 00:50:45

We got done.

999

: 00:50:47

I ran the top Yuck one more time.

: 1000

00:50:49,220 --> 00:50:53,240

Just because I, I was like, I need to

like paddle, I need to enjoy paddling.

: 1001

00:50:53,610 --> 00:50:56,410

afterwards, a bunch of people were

heading over to the North Fork of

: 1002

00:50:56,410 --> 00:51:00,940

the Blackwater normally I would say

yes, but today just isn't my day.

: 1003

00:51:00,940 --> 00:51:02,200

I'm just gonna go home.

: 1004

00:51:02,620 --> 00:51:03,640

I'm gonna reset.

: 1005

00:51:03,730 --> 00:51:09,490

And I just needed to go home and

reset and, spend time with Melissa

: 1006

00:51:09,570 --> 00:51:11,340

she was a big help to me that day.

: 1007

00:51:11,410 --> 00:51:15,900

Just coming home and, having

her there to talk to, was a

: 1008

00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:17,970

huge comfort for me that day.

: 1009

00:51:18,020 --> 00:51:23,600

I just needed to reset and take it easy

and not take kayaking so seriously.

: 1010

00:51:23,854 --> 00:51:24,634

Brett Mayer: Yeah, totally.

: 1011

00:51:24,904 --> 00:51:25,774

It's supposed to be fun.

: 1012

00:51:26,384 --> 00:51:27,614

Sometimes we can forget.

: 1013

00:51:28,004 --> 00:51:29,294

What grade do you teach?

: 1014

00:51:29,604 --> 00:51:30,894

We should have said that before.

: 1015

00:51:31,674 --> 00:51:35,824

Bobby: I was fifth grade last year,

but I, am teaching third next year.

: 1016

00:51:35,824 --> 00:51:37,444

So, yeah, that'll be,

: 1017

00:51:37,637 --> 00:51:39,227

Brett Mayer: younger

grades in the past, right?

: 1018

00:51:39,327 --> 00:51:42,887

Bobby: I was second for

eight years and, they last,

: 1019

00:51:43,411 --> 00:51:46,681

Brett Mayer: about that class you

mentioned, where it had that tough year.

: 1020

00:51:46,691 --> 00:51:48,101

That was a ways back right?

: 1021

00:51:48,181 --> 00:51:49,306

And I feel like I remember

: 1022

00:51:49,427 --> 00:51:51,167

Car with you and chatting about that

: 1023

00:51:52,004 --> 00:51:54,634

Bobby: I had a string

of really good years.

: 1024

00:51:55,024 --> 00:52:00,954

And then, it was not long after we

returned to school from the pandemic,

: 1025

00:52:01,204 --> 00:52:03,544

when I had that rougher group.

: 1026

00:52:03,544 --> 00:52:07,864

they were kids who didn't get the

structure in kindergarten that they.

: 1027

00:52:08,299 --> 00:52:10,369

Needed from being at home.

: 1028

00:52:10,369 --> 00:52:14,239

By the time they made it to second

grade, they just weren't adjusted to

: 1029

00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,119

school like normal second graders were.

: 1030

00:52:17,502 --> 00:52:17,792

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1031

00:52:17,899 --> 00:52:19,779

Bobby: It was a challenging year for sure.

: 1032

00:52:20,804 --> 00:52:24,304

Brett Mayer: I'm really interested

in this as a father of three myself

: 1033

00:52:25,444 --> 00:52:29,784

and, have a lovely wife that I'm

so appreciative of every day.

: 1034

00:52:30,844 --> 00:52:36,294

I know you are of Melissa, I've

shared these things, but just, how

: 1035

00:52:38,364 --> 00:52:43,224

be being married and like having

kids, how does that, how has that

: 1036

00:52:43,224 --> 00:52:46,834

maybe like, changed your relationship

to paddling where did those things

: 1037

00:52:46,834 --> 00:52:50,674

enter into that story and how has

that helped you grow over time?

: 1038

00:52:52,190 --> 00:52:53,315

Bobby: Yeah, for sure.

: 1039

00:52:53,765 --> 00:52:56,345

Well, I love to be on

the river with my family.

: 1040

00:52:56,825 --> 00:53:00,605

Melissa really enjoys being on the

river as well, so Hailey's been

: 1041

00:53:00,605 --> 00:53:04,905

up and down with her river time

I had those early years where.

: 1042

00:53:05,235 --> 00:53:08,315

You and I were taking trips

with the duos and doing all

: 1043

00:53:08,315 --> 00:53:10,205

kinds of fun stuff camping out.

: 1044

00:53:10,655 --> 00:53:14,495

Sahel eventually got into her

own kayak and I don't think that

: 1045

00:53:14,495 --> 00:53:19,595

ever really was something she

enjoyed nearly as much as the duo.

: 1046

00:53:20,345 --> 00:53:25,325

And, so she, she had a long hiatus

from paddling, last summer though.

: 1047

00:53:25,325 --> 00:53:29,075

She came to me and said, Hey dad,

I want you to buy me this raft.

: 1048

00:53:29,075 --> 00:53:31,175

She had like a Amazon raft.

: 1049

00:53:31,175 --> 00:53:32,255

It was like 50 bucks.

: 1050

00:53:32,494 --> 00:53:32,794

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1051

00:53:33,065 --> 00:53:35,465

Bobby: she's like, I wanna

float down the river with you.

: 1052

00:53:35,465 --> 00:53:39,115

And so, we got her the

raft and did several trips.

: 1053

00:53:39,115 --> 00:53:42,445

So that's been good to have

her back and at least wanting

: 1054

00:53:42,445 --> 00:53:43,885

to spend time on the water.

: 1055

00:53:44,185 --> 00:53:48,065

She doesn't have to paddle a kayak,

just going down the river with her and,

: 1056

00:53:48,635 --> 00:53:52,560

doing things with my family, they're

the most important people in my life.

: 1057

00:53:53,420 --> 00:53:54,460

Brett Mayer: Lives of zone dog.

: 1058

00:53:55,362 --> 00:53:56,862

Bobby: yes, many lives.

: 1059

00:53:57,342 --> 00:54:03,012

But yeah, so I mean, and Melissa's,

she's my biggest supporter.

: 1060

00:54:03,012 --> 00:54:06,962

She, she is very, been very

supportive of my kayaking and I

: 1061

00:54:06,962 --> 00:54:08,702

love going on the water with her.

: 1062

00:54:09,002 --> 00:54:13,592

We live in Harpers Ferry, which has

several nice sections of River on the

: 1063

00:54:13,592 --> 00:54:19,522

Potomac and the Shenandoah for getting out

and enjoying some chill time on the water

: 1064

00:54:19,522 --> 00:54:21,922

with small rapids and good swim spots.

: 1065

00:54:21,972 --> 00:54:23,862

We definitely live cool area for that.

: 1066

00:54:24,040 --> 00:54:25,480

Brett Mayer: Harpers Ferry is great.

: 1067

00:54:26,540 --> 00:54:29,570

We had some amazing trips with our

daughters when they were younger.

: 1068

00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,650

EEF and I, on our way up to the St.

: 1069

00:54:32,650 --> 00:54:35,880

Lawrence, river, had an

awesome couple of days.

: 1070

00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:39,090

We got really lucky passing through

West Virginia with some water.

: 1071

00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:40,760

And ended up paddling.

: 1072

00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:45,180

On the Castleman River you mentioned

the, the ka upon the cake, the ca

: 1073

00:54:45,180 --> 00:54:49,380

capin that's near like Romney Village,

if I remember, in West Virginia.

: 1074

00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:53,280

The Castleman is, technically in pa.

: 1075

00:54:53,540 --> 00:54:54,470

have you ever paddled it?

: 1076

00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:59,640

Okay, we did this section, it

was like 13 miles of class, two

: 1077

00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:05,300

plus, and we did it with, Scott

Anderson, Katie and their boys.

: 1078

00:55:05,300 --> 00:55:08,030

We had the most like iffa.

: 1079

00:55:08,150 --> 00:55:09,140

It's the same as Saha.

: 1080

00:55:10,290 --> 00:55:14,580

She got in a kayak, went to KVA camp,

and it just didn't stick for her.

: 1081

00:55:16,090 --> 00:55:20,410

She got a little nervous on some of the

rapids near Harpers Ferry, on the Potomac.

: 1082

00:55:20,410 --> 00:55:24,370

she was with some older kids and there

was a number of factors I think that

: 1083

00:55:24,370 --> 00:55:29,110

kind of influenced, but she kind of was

like, ah, I don't know if this is for me.

: 1084

00:55:29,170 --> 00:55:29,950

So I never push it.

: 1085

00:55:29,950 --> 00:55:32,380

But she's always loved

being on a paddle board.

: 1086

00:55:33,275 --> 00:55:36,395

She just takes a kayak, paddle

and hops on that paddleboard.

: 1087

00:55:36,395 --> 00:55:39,455

She sits in her knees the whole

time, but she'll paddle like a lot

: 1088

00:55:39,455 --> 00:55:43,115

of class two, three runs on the

paddleboard and she has a blast.

: 1089

00:55:43,965 --> 00:55:45,435

We've done that for years.

: 1090

00:55:46,495 --> 00:55:48,405

Now with my youngest son River.

: 1091

00:55:48,885 --> 00:55:50,925

She sits on the bow and

paddles from the back.

: 1092

00:55:50,925 --> 00:55:55,035

She paddled 13 miles on

the Kiki, on the Castleman.

: 1093

00:55:55,435 --> 00:56:00,535

And she loved it and was such a positive

day that she was like, maybe I want

: 1094

00:56:00,535 --> 00:56:03,765

to get a ducky I don't think she'll

ever really want to get into a hard

: 1095

00:56:03,765 --> 00:56:07,405

boat, but she definitely loves to be

on the water, which is really cool.

: 1096

00:56:07,405 --> 00:56:11,095

We hiked up to Seneca Rocks,

where we took the girls when they

: 1097

00:56:11,095 --> 00:56:15,185

were young I took the exact same

pictures in that little rock window.

: 1098

00:56:15,665 --> 00:56:18,815

We, had the girls up there

after we paddled, and then

: 1099

00:56:18,815 --> 00:56:20,645

we compared 'em side by side.

: 1100

00:56:20,855 --> 00:56:23,625

It was, it was just really, it

was really awesome, to revisit.

: 1101

00:56:23,675 --> 00:56:26,555

she was talking, she was

like, she will, she will ask.

: 1102

00:56:26,555 --> 00:56:32,015

The, those trips that we took in the

duos on Hopeville Canyon and Smoke

: 1103

00:56:32,195 --> 00:56:34,475

Hole were so impactful for her.

: 1104

00:56:34,955 --> 00:56:38,405

She periodically, you know, every now

and then, she like, talks about it

: 1105

00:56:38,405 --> 00:56:41,885

and she's like, you know, remember

when you told me you were gonna, we

: 1106

00:56:41,885 --> 00:56:44,135

were camping, and you're like, all

right, tomorrow you're gonna cry.

: 1107

00:56:44,165 --> 00:56:45,995

'cause you're gonna go

through this big hole.

: 1108

00:56:46,145 --> 00:56:47,825

They're only four or five years old.

: 1109

00:56:48,977 --> 00:56:49,267

Bobby: Yeah.

: 1110

00:56:49,635 --> 00:56:54,075

Brett Mayer: So we're talking all about

it and she, she is very much wants to

: 1111

00:56:54,975 --> 00:56:59,595

up with you and Saha and, and do the,

do it again being a little bit older.

: 1112

00:56:59,645 --> 00:57:01,775

We a hundred percent have

gotta make that happen.

: 1113

00:57:01,775 --> 00:57:02,410

Bobby: that would be awesome.

: 1114

00:57:02,679 --> 00:57:03,699

Brett Mayer: It would be so cool.

: 1115

00:57:04,689 --> 00:57:12,409

My next question any moments, that

were some of your most challenging

: 1116

00:57:12,449 --> 00:57:18,279

on the river, where it was just like,

man, this is not what I expected, or,

: 1117

00:57:18,579 --> 00:57:22,419

moments that maybe got you to step

back and really reflect on everything.

: 1118

00:57:22,489 --> 00:57:23,854

Anything like that you wanted to

: 1119

00:57:23,955 --> 00:57:24,245

Bobby: Sure.

: 1120

00:57:24,254 --> 00:57:24,974

Brett Mayer: of talk about a little bit?

: 1121

00:57:25,654 --> 00:57:25,944

Bobby: Yeah.

: 1122

00:57:25,994 --> 00:57:28,129

I have a few moments in mind.

: 1123

00:57:28,229 --> 00:57:32,219

My first reflection, moment would be.

: 1124

00:57:32,889 --> 00:57:36,839

There's a creek it flows into, Otter

Creek, in Otter Creek Wilderness.

: 1125

00:57:36,869 --> 00:57:39,509

In West Virginia it's called More run.

: 1126

00:57:40,049 --> 00:57:44,569

In more run it's super steep,

very small, really at, the

: 1127

00:57:44,569 --> 00:57:47,469

limits of, runnable Steep Creek.

: 1128

00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:49,289

It's just that small and steep.

: 1129

00:57:49,799 --> 00:57:51,839

I had several adventures in there.

: 1130

00:57:52,419 --> 00:57:54,279

The second of which was pretty rough.

: 1131

00:57:54,279 --> 00:57:59,769

The first one, was with Joe Stump

fell, and, we made our way down

: 1132

00:57:59,769 --> 00:58:01,459

the creek, but we made an error.

: 1133

00:58:01,459 --> 00:58:02,929

Actually, this is kind of interesting.

: 1134

00:58:02,979 --> 00:58:07,959

We had a group that was gonna meet

us at Otter Creek and we all walked

: 1135

00:58:07,959 --> 00:58:12,319

in the more run goes through a marsh

and we knew that the trail kind of

: 1136

00:58:12,319 --> 00:58:14,809

came back to the creek at the marsh.

: 1137

00:58:15,019 --> 00:58:18,279

And I'm like, why should we walk

the trail for a mile when we

: 1138

00:58:18,279 --> 00:58:19,689

could just paddle this marsh?

: 1139

00:58:20,109 --> 00:58:21,939

And it made sense.

: 1140

00:58:21,939 --> 00:58:23,499

So we paddled across the marsh.

: 1141

00:58:23,859 --> 00:58:28,479

Problem was between where the

trail came back and the marsh was a

: 1142

00:58:28,479 --> 00:58:30,554

subterranean section of the creek.

: 1143

00:58:31,004 --> 00:58:36,059

the creek went underground and it was just

giant piles of boulders with no creek.

: 1144

00:58:36,489 --> 00:58:41,199

We lost probably a couple hours portaging

our kayaks through these boulder fields.

: 1145

00:58:41,799 --> 00:58:44,949

We get to the put in finally

and I'm like, we don't have

: 1146

00:58:44,949 --> 00:58:46,599

enough time to run this creek.

: 1147

00:58:47,179 --> 00:58:50,399

Joe Stump always had a positive

outlook, always thought we could do it.

: 1148

00:58:50,399 --> 00:58:53,489

And he is like, no, you and I,

we're gonna stick to the plan.

: 1149

00:58:53,489 --> 00:58:57,969

We're gonna get down this creek quickly

and meet them at the confluence.

: 1150

00:58:57,969 --> 00:59:02,409

The other people in the group went on to

the Confluence and were waiting for us.

: 1151

00:59:02,509 --> 00:59:04,609

We continued down the creek.

: 1152

00:59:04,609 --> 00:59:05,539

The creek was great.

: 1153

00:59:05,629 --> 00:59:06,769

We had a great run.

: 1154

00:59:07,114 --> 00:59:11,194

But when you're on a steep creek that

you're unfamiliar with and you got a

: 1155

00:59:11,194 --> 00:59:16,654

scout, and I think there might've been a

portage or two, like it just takes time.

: 1156

00:59:16,654 --> 00:59:17,524

we ran outta light.

: 1157

00:59:17,554 --> 00:59:22,474

And so we had to hike out poor people

who didn't, who met us at the Confluence.

: 1158

00:59:22,714 --> 00:59:26,374

They didn't even get to paddle other than

just the marsh getting to the subterranean

: 1159

00:59:26,374 --> 00:59:28,834

section and then a seven mile hike out.

: 1160

00:59:29,104 --> 00:59:32,144

And so, that was a rough

start to running that creek.

: 1161

00:59:32,654 --> 00:59:36,074

But then, less than a year later,

I went back to the creek with,

: 1162

00:59:36,154 --> 00:59:39,054

Steve Gray Bill, and one of the

members of the previous group.

: 1163

00:59:39,104 --> 00:59:43,364

We went in there and the person

from the previous group pinned and

: 1164

00:59:43,414 --> 00:59:47,164

she walked back to her car and was

like, all right, I'm gonna head home.

: 1165

00:59:47,644 --> 00:59:51,154

And Steve and I continued and we

had a nice level for the creek.

: 1166

00:59:51,784 --> 00:59:54,424

We worked our way down the creek, but.

: 1167

00:59:54,769 --> 00:59:56,659

We lost time with the pin.

: 1168

00:59:56,659 --> 00:59:59,959

The pin wasn't just like a pin,

it was, we had set up a Z drag and

: 1169

00:59:59,959 --> 01:00:02,069

had to, work to get the boat out.

: 1170

01:00:02,129 --> 01:00:07,789

We were at the short part of the year

January or February, and then as it

: 1171

01:00:07,789 --> 01:00:13,279

started getting dark, we're getting close

to the confluence, but again, we're facing

: 1172

01:00:13,279 --> 01:00:16,879

a seven mile walk out with in the dark.

: 1173

01:00:17,209 --> 01:00:19,489

Steve said, I wanna run one more drop.

: 1174

01:00:19,489 --> 01:00:22,079

I said, all right, I'll

meet up with you below that.

: 1175

01:00:22,419 --> 01:00:27,249

He ran that one more drop, but it was

dark he flipped hit his face ended

: 1176

01:00:27,249 --> 01:00:31,689

up swimming and losing his boat and

his paddle and getting disoriented,

: 1177

01:00:31,689 --> 01:00:33,339

breaking, broke his nose as well.

: 1178

01:00:33,699 --> 01:00:39,699

And then I continued downstream, not

knowledgeable of what had happened to him.

: 1179

01:00:40,219 --> 01:00:43,529

I went to the confluence where

we were supposed to meet up.

: 1180

01:00:44,049 --> 01:00:45,159

waited a long time.

: 1181

01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:49,669

I blew the whistle, hoping to get

any sort of communication there

: 1182

01:00:49,669 --> 01:00:50,959

were footprints in the snow.

: 1183

01:00:50,959 --> 01:00:53,059

There were snow on the ground,

there were footprints in the snow.

: 1184

01:00:53,059 --> 01:00:55,069

And I was like, what if

Steve got here before me?

: 1185

01:00:55,369 --> 01:00:56,749

He ran a drop ahead of me.

: 1186

01:00:56,749 --> 01:00:59,569

He could a couple minutes ahead

and started walking down the

: 1187

01:00:59,569 --> 01:01:01,439

trail thinking I would catch him.

: 1188

01:01:02,049 --> 01:01:05,619

I had spent about an hour blowing

my whistle, and decided to head

: 1189

01:01:05,709 --> 01:01:10,779

downstream I eventually made my

way to my car and he wasn't there.

: 1190

01:01:10,839 --> 01:01:14,279

That was a really bad feeling

knowing that your buddy wasn't there.

: 1191

01:01:14,549 --> 01:01:18,419

The next morning, Steve walked out

on his own we had search and rescue

: 1192

01:01:18,419 --> 01:01:22,279

ready to go in there, as soon as it

became light enough for him to start

: 1193

01:01:22,279 --> 01:01:26,019

walking downstream, it was a warm

night, thankfully, he was able to,

: 1194

01:01:26,449 --> 01:01:30,589

keep warm enough through the night and

then he walked out the next morning.

: 1195

01:01:30,589 --> 01:01:33,509

But that was one of those times

where it was like, is this even

: 1196

01:01:33,509 --> 01:01:38,639

feasible to run this creek and

make it down Steve was hurt.

: 1197

01:01:39,099 --> 01:01:41,969

I felt really bad about

losing him in there.

: 1198

01:01:42,279 --> 01:01:44,549

We could have done a

better job communicating

: 1199

01:01:44,919 --> 01:01:47,759

But those footprints I thought

who would've been hiking here?

: 1200

01:01:48,117 --> 01:01:48,337

Brett Mayer: mm.

: 1201

01:01:48,539 --> 01:01:50,039

Bobby: Like it was at a creek crossing.

: 1202

01:01:50,039 --> 01:01:53,909

So it wasn't like the footprint

should have been a hiker who would've

: 1203

01:01:53,909 --> 01:01:59,039

waited through more run to, you know,

that was my thought process there.

: 1204

01:01:59,089 --> 01:02:04,759

obviously didn't work out that day, but

a few years later, Steve went back with

: 1205

01:02:04,759 --> 01:02:10,279

me, along with Seth Chappelle, Matt

Sloan and Jeff Calhoun, and we actually

: 1206

01:02:10,279 --> 01:02:12,529

did complete a descent of that creek.

: 1207

01:02:12,979 --> 01:02:13,269

Brett Mayer: Nice.

: 1208

01:02:13,405 --> 01:02:17,095

Bobby: Melissa actually ran our

shuttle, so she was worried about us.

: 1209

01:02:17,095 --> 01:02:18,535

It snowed all day long.

: 1210

01:02:18,775 --> 01:02:19,915

It was a crazy day.

: 1211

01:02:20,015 --> 01:02:24,635

But we got to the dry fork of

the cheat right at dark and

: 1212

01:02:24,635 --> 01:02:27,005

then upped the trail to the car.

: 1213

01:02:27,005 --> 01:02:31,840

It was just one of those awesome days

we finally accomplished that goal.

: 1214

01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:36,870

It was very stressful for Melissa,

but, ultimately a time for celebration.

: 1215

01:02:37,150 --> 01:02:40,760

I was glad that Steve was

able to be with me when, we

: 1216

01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,000

finally, accomplished that goal.

: 1217

01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,220

To be able to do that

with him was awesome.

: 1218

01:02:45,594 --> 01:02:45,864

Brett Mayer: That's

: 1219

01:02:45,970 --> 01:02:47,410

Bobby: Definitely that was a cool one.

: 1220

01:02:47,500 --> 01:02:51,660

We, there's another creek comes into

the cheat canyon called Laurel Creek.

: 1221

01:02:52,260 --> 01:02:57,210

And, if there's any creek that

I would love to do again and

: 1222

01:02:57,210 --> 01:03:00,270

actually complete, that's that one.

: 1223

01:03:00,509 --> 01:03:00,799

Brett Mayer: Cool.

: 1224

01:03:01,100 --> 01:03:05,990

Bobby: It's one of those runs that

has maybe eight pretty big rapids.

: 1225

01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,440

To run all eight would be a

huge accomplishment because,

: 1226

01:03:10,010 --> 01:03:12,590

Every drop on that creek is terrifying.

: 1227

01:03:12,590 --> 01:03:16,980

Just to run one of 'em is a big

deal, but to run every one of 'em,

: 1228

01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:23,470

I wonder if I have it in me to

handle my fear for that many rapids.

: 1229

01:03:23,770 --> 01:03:24,790

I want that shot.

: 1230

01:03:24,790 --> 01:03:26,380

I've gone in there three times.

: 1231

01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,110

The first time we ran outta light

the second time we actually slept

: 1232

01:03:31,110 --> 01:03:32,550

in the chief canyon that night.

: 1233

01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,000

Second time a bunch of

trees had fallen down.

: 1234

01:03:36,210 --> 01:03:37,560

We actually started early.

: 1235

01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:41,620

We had a good water level, but it had

been a few years since we had hiked the

: 1236

01:03:41,620 --> 01:03:46,105

creek and there were a bunch of trees

blocking a bunch of the major rapids.

: 1237

01:03:46,105 --> 01:03:47,650

So we ended up just walking out.

: 1238

01:03:47,650 --> 01:03:51,220

And then the third time

we had a low level.

: 1239

01:03:51,710 --> 01:03:55,820

I was set to run some of the

drops, but the crew I was with

: 1240

01:03:55,820 --> 01:03:57,710

wasn't super stoked on the creek.

: 1241

01:03:57,710 --> 01:04:01,640

eventually we got far enough and

they said, this is the last drop

: 1242

01:04:02,090 --> 01:04:03,650

that we're holding a rope for you.

: 1243

01:04:03,710 --> 01:04:04,730

We can see the cheat.

: 1244

01:04:05,105 --> 01:04:06,995

We're walking outta here after this drop.

: 1245

01:04:06,995 --> 01:04:10,775

So they held a rope for me to run

this big drop called rally round

: 1246

01:04:10,775 --> 01:04:12,275

the family pocket full of shells.

: 1247

01:04:12,275 --> 01:04:15,445

one of those drops where 30

foot cascade into a wall.

: 1248

01:04:15,445 --> 01:04:18,565

You gotta run it sideways and

then down a slide and off a

: 1249

01:04:18,565 --> 01:04:21,545

15 footer, all with no stop.

: 1250

01:04:21,904 --> 01:04:25,565

I ran that drop and there's still

two more that I haven't done.

: 1251

01:04:25,744 --> 01:04:25,964

Brett Mayer: Ooh,

: 1252

01:04:26,075 --> 01:04:28,585

Bobby: And, they were like, we're

not hanging around for that.

: 1253

01:04:28,645 --> 01:04:29,755

Those two drops.

: 1254

01:04:30,085 --> 01:04:32,725

They're like, so you can solo

'em or you can come with us.

: 1255

01:04:32,725 --> 01:04:36,665

So I was like, man, that's one

that I pause and think about a lot.

: 1256

01:04:37,025 --> 01:04:43,575

Like, do I have the guts to run

everything I need that one more chance

: 1257

01:04:43,575 --> 01:04:46,425

to get at least those bottom two drops.

: 1258

01:04:46,619 --> 01:04:48,679

Brett Mayer: So that's a little

bit of, it's a motivator.

: 1259

01:04:48,889 --> 01:04:49,909

Bobby: Yes, it's a motivator.

: 1260

01:04:50,702 --> 01:04:54,232

Brett Mayer: even now if it

all lines up, you still want

: 1261

01:04:54,232 --> 01:04:55,612

another crack at Laurel run.

: 1262

01:04:56,529 --> 01:04:58,419

Bobby: I want another

crack at that one for sure.

: 1263

01:04:59,379 --> 01:05:04,509

to complete that one all the way to the

sheet would be for me at least near the

: 1264

01:05:04,509 --> 01:05:06,809

magnitude of how I felt completing that.

: 1265

01:05:06,912 --> 01:05:07,212

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1266

01:05:08,032 --> 01:05:08,392

another

: 1267

01:05:08,409 --> 01:05:08,889

Bobby: That one.

: 1268

01:05:09,172 --> 01:05:10,221

Brett Mayer: A pinnacle moment.

: 1269

01:05:10,272 --> 01:05:10,662

sure.

: 1270

01:05:11,382 --> 01:05:11,982

That's cool.

: 1271

01:05:13,312 --> 01:05:17,322

I know you spend a lot of time with

kva, one of the largest paddling

: 1272

01:05:17,322 --> 01:05:19,212

schools in the entire country.

: 1273

01:05:19,282 --> 01:05:21,832

In terms of the number of

people they put in boats.

: 1274

01:05:21,832 --> 01:05:23,602

I've heard that statistic before.

: 1275

01:05:24,302 --> 01:05:27,942

I know you've spent a lot of time

teaching in terms of giving back, to the

: 1276

01:05:28,002 --> 01:05:31,852

paddling community, is it the teaching

that inspires you more than anything?

: 1277

01:05:32,042 --> 01:05:32,672

These days?

: 1278

01:05:34,084 --> 01:05:35,089

Bobby: It really does.

: 1279

01:05:35,489 --> 01:05:41,189

I absolutely love teaching kayaking

for kva, from a standpoint of keeping

: 1280

01:05:41,189 --> 01:05:45,969

it interesting, we do the cheat

training in the spring, so I'm in a

: 1281

01:05:45,969 --> 01:05:48,369

long boat a lot through the spring.

: 1282

01:05:48,849 --> 01:05:54,849

Then there's y training in the early

summer that's more creek boat based, and

: 1283

01:05:54,909 --> 01:05:59,529

it's working with intermediates to low

advanced paddlers trying to get them to

: 1284

01:05:59,619 --> 01:06:02,169

build up the skills to the upper yak.

: 1285

01:06:02,169 --> 01:06:07,029

That actually from a rewarding standpoint,

when you can take someone from a class

: 1286

01:06:07,029 --> 01:06:12,429

three level and build up their skills in

a couple months to where they can actually

: 1287

01:06:12,429 --> 01:06:16,999

have a successful run down the upper

rock, that's a really rewarding feeling.

: 1288

01:06:17,959 --> 01:06:21,769

We just had the southeast stouts

training, which Kla has been very

: 1289

01:06:21,769 --> 01:06:26,239

good about allowing me to be creative

and come up with something like

: 1290

01:06:26,239 --> 01:06:29,809

the southeast outs training that's

really kind of pushing the envelope.

: 1291

01:06:30,349 --> 01:06:32,349

That was an awesome experience.

: 1292

01:06:32,399 --> 01:06:38,129

Seeing the people kind of make progress

with, you know, their creaking skills.

: 1293

01:06:38,369 --> 01:06:39,659

Also like just.

: 1294

01:06:40,304 --> 01:06:46,994

The amount of just like internal, like

fortitude it takes to like go into a

: 1295

01:06:46,994 --> 01:06:51,524

wilderness setting and know that you're

gonna be battling nature for six,

: 1296

01:06:51,524 --> 01:06:57,514

seven hours and having the group step

up to that challenge, was really cool.

: 1297

01:06:57,514 --> 01:07:02,913

Red Creek being a full day wilderness

experience, even the new green,

: 1298

01:07:03,434 --> 01:07:07,394

trail at Pullium Creek is kind of

starting to be where people are able

: 1299

01:07:07,394 --> 01:07:11,544

to hike in, but you're still a, it's

still a wilderness experience right

: 1300

01:07:11,599 --> 01:07:13,854

now I'm doing a play boating class.

: 1301

01:07:14,224 --> 01:07:18,424

We had class last night in Mather

Gorge, so I get to meet lots of

: 1302

01:07:18,424 --> 01:07:22,744

people, see the progress they make,

see the joy they get from paddling,

: 1303

01:07:23,054 --> 01:07:24,974

just seeing people happy on the river.

: 1304

01:07:25,299 --> 01:07:30,019

Is a big motivator for me, I also

get to teach from many different

: 1305

01:07:30,019 --> 01:07:34,849

angles, whether it's creaking, long

boat racing, play boating, like

: 1306

01:07:35,419 --> 01:07:37,249

it's, I'm, it's always changing.

: 1307

01:07:37,729 --> 01:07:41,629

It's never, I, I never feel stuck in

a rut when I'm teaching kava lessons.

: 1308

01:07:41,937 --> 01:07:42,147

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1309

01:07:42,177 --> 01:07:45,147

Because the calendar and what boat

you're in at different points in the

: 1310

01:07:45,147 --> 01:07:46,707

year changes throughout the season.

: 1311

01:07:46,707 --> 01:07:50,667

you get to share the full breadth

of all the knowledge and skill

: 1312

01:07:50,667 --> 01:07:54,596

that you've developed over time and

different boats and applications

: 1313

01:07:54,596 --> 01:07:56,067

of the sport, which is really cool.

: 1314

01:07:57,999 --> 01:07:58,159

Bobby: sure.

: 1315

01:07:59,142 --> 01:08:04,032

Brett Mayer: do you any, particular like

kind of advocacy issues that, like, you

: 1316

01:08:04,032 --> 01:08:08,532

want to, you know, that you have a deep

connection to, like an access point

: 1317

01:08:08,532 --> 01:08:12,762

or a river that you want to see really

become like a wild in scenic river?

: 1318

01:08:12,792 --> 01:08:15,462

Anything like that, that you're

particularly passionate about?

: 1319

01:08:17,788 --> 01:08:22,429

Bobby: Oh, the Harpers Ferry area

is an area that I've worked on

: 1320

01:08:22,429 --> 01:08:24,139

to help with the river access.

: 1321

01:08:24,287 --> 01:08:24,767

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1322

01:08:24,919 --> 01:08:27,618

Bobby: point in time I was the

president of the Mason Dixon Canoe

: 1323

01:08:27,618 --> 01:08:29,639

Cruisers, as recently as last year.

: 1324

01:08:30,089 --> 01:08:34,049

I used that to get with the

raft companies, river and

: 1325

01:08:34,049 --> 01:08:38,889

Trail Outfitters as a put in at

Millville, on the Nando staircase.

: 1326

01:08:39,169 --> 01:08:43,309

They've worked with our club to give

us access to their Millville put in

: 1327

01:08:43,729 --> 01:08:49,259

River Riders, another raft company has

a put in Atton on the Potomac River.

: 1328

01:08:49,634 --> 01:08:53,144

And they've worked with us so

that we can use their ton put in.

: 1329

01:08:53,453 --> 01:08:58,814

I've met with Harpers Ferry National

Park, to arrange cleanups to, try

: 1330

01:08:58,814 --> 01:09:03,654

to use, there's a, a parking lot in

Harpers Ferry designed for boaters.

: 1331

01:09:03,993 --> 01:09:08,913

It gets more use from hikers

and people accessing the town.

: 1332

01:09:08,913 --> 01:09:13,604

But, the original design of it

was as a boater parking lot.

: 1333

01:09:13,934 --> 01:09:18,344

The park has allowed us to have access

to that parking lot, free of charge.

: 1334

01:09:18,764 --> 01:09:23,174

I haven't talked to them recently since

there were budget cuts with the national

: 1335

01:09:23,174 --> 01:09:28,884

park, but last year we were planning to

coincide, cleanups of the parking area.

: 1336

01:09:29,214 --> 01:09:31,283

We do cleanups of the wayside.

: 1337

01:09:31,703 --> 01:09:35,184

The takeout area as well, which

is also in the national park.

: 1338

01:09:35,573 --> 01:09:40,774

We were trying to get an official document

where boaters would have access and what

: 1339

01:09:40,774 --> 01:09:42,844

we would give back would be cleanups.

: 1340

01:09:43,124 --> 01:09:46,654

At certain times hopefully in the

future, we'll be able to set up

: 1341

01:09:46,654 --> 01:09:50,514

something official with the National

Park Service at Harper Sparing

: 1342

01:09:51,261 --> 01:09:51,862

Brett Mayer: That's awesome.

: 1343

01:09:51,862 --> 01:09:53,211

That sounds like really good work.

: 1344

01:09:54,502 --> 01:09:57,517

All right, to the little rapid fire.

: 1345

01:09:57,667 --> 01:09:59,397

What's your favorite boat right now?

: 1346

01:10:01,859 --> 01:10:02,424

Bobby: favorite boat.

: 1347

01:10:02,424 --> 01:10:03,479

That's a tough one.

: 1348

01:10:03,999 --> 01:10:09,999

I paddled the vanguard almost

exclusively through the spring, and

: 1349

01:10:09,999 --> 01:10:11,859

I really like that as a long boat.

: 1350

01:10:11,909 --> 01:10:16,309

With the play boating, I, go back

and forth between the new piranha

: 1351

01:10:16,309 --> 01:10:19,659

electron and the, dagger Nova.

: 1352

01:10:19,999 --> 01:10:23,789

Whether I wanna slice or try to

do loops, depends on the play

: 1353

01:10:23,789 --> 01:10:26,729

spot and, I enjoy both of those.

: 1354

01:10:27,089 --> 01:10:31,709

My creek boat right now is a

Waka og, which has been, very

: 1355

01:10:31,709 --> 01:10:34,589

stable and, skips out nicely.

: 1356

01:10:34,849 --> 01:10:39,739

when I was deciding what boat I wanted

to be, my creek boat, I went to Steve and

: 1357

01:10:39,739 --> 01:10:41,809

said, I want something stable and slow.

: 1358

01:10:42,318 --> 01:10:46,309

I want something to slow me down when

I'm going down these big cascades.

: 1359

01:10:46,619 --> 01:10:47,909

The OG is probably it.

: 1360

01:10:47,959 --> 01:10:49,969

I haven't been disappointed with the og.

: 1361

01:10:49,969 --> 01:10:52,874

I like that boat a lot

for creeks for sure.

: 1362

01:10:53,172 --> 01:10:54,732

Brett Mayer: I like the stable and slow.

: 1363

01:10:54,812 --> 01:10:57,902

When we're offline, I'll tell

you, I was on Joyful Creek

: 1364

01:10:57,932 --> 01:11:00,932

last June, and I took a SCOR X.

: 1365

01:11:02,252 --> 01:11:03,212

It was not slow

: 1366

01:11:04,624 --> 01:11:04,914

Bobby: Yeah,

: 1367

01:11:04,922 --> 01:11:06,302

Brett Mayer: going, it was not slow.

: 1368

01:11:06,302 --> 01:11:09,752

And that's, I'll tell you the

rest of the story, but it was,

: 1369

01:11:09,807 --> 01:11:11,222

I was glad to make it off.

: 1370

01:11:12,522 --> 01:11:14,202

What is your go-to river snack?

: 1371

01:11:14,292 --> 01:11:16,457

Like what do you eat out there

when you're on the water?

: 1372

01:11:17,489 --> 01:11:23,759

Bobby: I really like these, protein bars

they're honey and yogurt flavored, I

: 1373

01:11:23,759 --> 01:11:26,549

eat those all the time as a river snack.

: 1374

01:11:26,707 --> 01:11:26,997

Brett Mayer: Okay.

: 1375

01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:31,409

Bobby: It's $4 for a box of six

of them, good old Aldi it works.

: 1376

01:11:31,817 --> 01:11:34,787

Brett Mayer: What would be

your dream paddling trip?

: 1377

01:11:34,877 --> 01:11:38,117

Is there a trip that you're

like, God, I really wanna, yeah,

: 1378

01:11:38,177 --> 01:11:39,407

I would love to do that trip.

: 1379

01:11:40,247 --> 01:11:41,117

Like a Pinnacle,

: 1380

01:11:41,164 --> 01:11:41,584

Bobby: So

: 1381

01:11:42,017 --> 01:11:42,347

Brett Mayer: trip.

: 1382

01:11:43,294 --> 01:11:47,314

Bobby: my big paddling trip that

I would love to do is Norway.

: 1383

01:11:47,834 --> 01:11:50,924

Norway just looks awesome

with all the big waterfalls.

: 1384

01:11:51,404 --> 01:11:55,964

I feel like that is a place where,

the zone dog could be the zone dog.

: 1385

01:11:57,324 --> 01:11:59,989

I feel like that would be a

spot where I would start to

: 1386

01:11:59,989 --> 01:12:02,659

feel that dulling of the fear.

: 1387

01:12:03,079 --> 01:12:05,509

There's a lot of big drops

out there to be sent.

: 1388

01:12:05,609 --> 01:12:11,879

But on a single run note, the

Royal Gorge in California,

: 1389

01:12:12,007 --> 01:12:12,127

Brett Mayer: it.

: 1390

01:12:12,629 --> 01:12:16,109

Bobby: There is a part of me

that really wants to see if I

: 1391

01:12:16,109 --> 01:12:18,329

actually have a royal flush in me.

: 1392

01:12:19,137 --> 01:12:19,527

Brett Mayer: Wow.

: 1393

01:12:19,947 --> 01:12:23,627

Bobby: I question whether I have

a royal flush in me, but I want

: 1394

01:12:23,627 --> 01:12:28,037

that opportunity to go in there and

at least run some of those drops.

: 1395

01:12:28,151 --> 01:12:29,261

Brett Mayer: is that, awesome.

: 1396

01:12:29,441 --> 01:12:29,711

Bobby: You should.

: 1397

01:12:30,054 --> 01:12:33,384

Brett Mayer: plans for a trip is this

just like in your mind or you're like,

: 1398

01:12:33,504 --> 01:12:36,443

king at, you know, California: 2026

: 1399

01:12:37,721 --> 01:12:39,641

Bobby: It's not something

I'm actively planning.

: 1400

01:12:39,641 --> 01:12:41,741

It's something I definitely want to do.

: 1401

01:12:42,051 --> 01:12:47,141

The problem with the Royal Gorge

is I feel like it tends to go

: 1402

01:12:47,141 --> 01:12:49,841

before my school year is out.

: 1403

01:12:49,943 --> 01:12:50,454

Brett Mayer: Right.

: 1404

01:12:50,601 --> 01:12:54,601

Bobby: I got outta school June

13th this year, like you taking off

: 1405

01:12:54,601 --> 01:12:56,251

days at the end of the school year.

: 1406

01:12:56,521 --> 01:13:00,811

it's gonna have to be a really big

snow pack year and that snow melt

: 1407

01:13:00,901 --> 01:13:02,761

might start later than normal.

: 1408

01:13:02,791 --> 01:13:06,061

A couple years ago, there was a

really big snow pack and the Royal

: 1409

01:13:06,061 --> 01:13:10,861

Gorge actually would've been in

play when I was outta school.

: 1410

01:13:11,024 --> 01:13:11,534

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1411

01:13:11,851 --> 01:13:13,921

Bobby: and that would've

been the time to go for it.

: 1412

01:13:14,021 --> 01:13:17,431

But yeah, that's gonna have to be

something, that, you know, where

: 1413

01:13:17,491 --> 01:13:19,681

a lot of things go my way and

: 1414

01:13:19,784 --> 01:13:20,114

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1415

01:13:20,441 --> 01:13:25,111

Bobby: And then, my hundredth birthday

goal, this is a joke more than something

: 1416

01:13:25,111 --> 01:13:29,611

serious, but on my hundredth birthday,

I'm going to drive to Niagara Falls.

: 1417

01:13:29,921 --> 01:13:32,191

the Canadian side that has

the pool at the bottom.

: 1418

01:13:32,241 --> 01:13:32,661

Brett Mayer: Nice.

: 1419

01:13:33,982 --> 01:13:38,032

Bobby: And that way if I survive,

I'm the coolest hundred year old

: 1420

01:13:38,271 --> 01:13:38,721

Brett Mayer: ever.

: 1421

01:13:39,682 --> 01:13:43,642

Bobby: And if I don't make it, then I've

lived a hundred years and, had a good run.

: 1422

01:13:44,031 --> 01:13:44,451

Brett Mayer: Yeah.

: 1423

01:13:45,441 --> 01:13:47,271

That's, that seems

pretty reasonable to me.

: 1424

01:13:47,311 --> 01:13:48,211

You gotta put those goals

: 1425

01:13:48,297 --> 01:13:48,587

Bobby: Yeah,

: 1426

01:13:50,301 --> 01:13:50,571

Sure.

: 1427

01:13:50,999 --> 01:13:52,499

Brett Mayer: My final question for you.

: 1428

01:13:53,879 --> 01:13:55,919

What does following waters mean to you?

: 1429

01:14:00,451 --> 01:14:05,731

Bobby: I think following waters would

be finding that joy, finding that peace

: 1430

01:14:06,221 --> 01:14:09,851

on the river, whichever discipline.

: 1431

01:14:10,296 --> 01:14:13,421

Finding happiness, peace,

and love on the river?

: 1432

01:14:14,929 --> 01:14:15,589

Brett Mayer: Dude, I love it.

: 1433

01:14:16,349 --> 01:14:22,679

such a great way to bring this

first podcast, to a close.

: 1434

01:14:22,679 --> 01:14:26,469

Is there any additional things

that you would like to talk

: 1435

01:14:26,469 --> 01:14:27,749

about or throw out there?

: 1436

01:14:28,559 --> 01:14:36,469

Advice that you have or want to share

with folks that are, paddling, up in their

: 1437

01:14:36,469 --> 01:14:40,999

game, thinking about getting into the

sport, you know, anything that you would

: 1438

01:14:40,999 --> 01:14:44,989

want to, kind of, some parting, parting

thoughts or comments to those folks.

: 1439

01:14:46,636 --> 01:14:51,066

Bobby: I was thinking about my

recommendation to someone starting

: 1440

01:14:51,066 --> 01:14:53,436

paddling or wanting to up their game.

: 1441

01:14:54,171 --> 01:15:01,131

I really think if you are able to build a

solid role that is gonna lead you so far

: 1442

01:15:01,131 --> 01:15:06,561

in kayaking, and if you aren't able to do

that, that's gonna limit where you can go.

: 1443

01:15:07,081 --> 01:15:10,901

Since I'm now teaching play boating

classes, one way to build that

: 1444

01:15:10,901 --> 01:15:14,261

confidence is to get into play boating.

: 1445

01:15:14,271 --> 01:15:16,251

You flip a lot playing in holes.

: 1446

01:15:16,641 --> 01:15:19,761

Plus you'll build confidence

to surf your way out of a hole

: 1447

01:15:19,761 --> 01:15:21,831

if you're stuck in a big rapid.

: 1448

01:15:22,081 --> 01:15:25,111

There's so much that you

can learn from play boating.

: 1449

01:15:25,481 --> 01:15:29,881

I think the number one thing to progress

in kayaking is to be confident in your

: 1450

01:15:29,881 --> 01:15:31,261

role that you're gonna hit it every time.

: 1451

01:15:32,274 --> 01:15:33,144

Brett Mayer: That's awesome.

: 1452

01:15:33,174 --> 01:15:34,284

That's good advice too.

: 1453

01:15:34,764 --> 01:15:38,214

Spent a lot of time with my son

Stokes before we even got out.

: 1454

01:15:38,214 --> 01:15:39,924

Just lots of pool sessions.

: 1455

01:15:39,974 --> 01:15:43,714

just trying to solidify that role, and

then coming back to it and working on it

: 1456

01:15:44,134 --> 01:15:49,674

no matter where you are, in your paddling

but having that focused practice on your

: 1457

01:15:49,674 --> 01:15:51,574

role from time to time, is really smart.

: 1458

01:15:53,934 --> 01:15:58,704

Well with that, I think

that's a wrap for episode one.

: 1459

01:15:58,764 --> 01:16:01,274

Bobby, I can't thank you

enough for hanging out here.

: 1460

01:16:01,374 --> 01:16:03,204

I think we're at an hour, hour 40.

: 1461

01:16:03,254 --> 01:16:04,904

Plenty for folks to listen to.

: 1462

01:16:04,954 --> 01:16:09,184

if you're with us and you stayed with

us this long, you so much for listening.

: 1463

01:16:09,934 --> 01:16:13,684

try to put some photos and give

some context to some of the

: 1464

01:16:13,684 --> 01:16:15,724

stories that Bobby has told here.

: 1465

01:16:15,834 --> 01:16:17,634

We'll try to put those in the show notes.

: 1466

01:16:17,714 --> 01:16:22,314

leave us some comments, reach out, if

you have suggestions for things that

: 1467

01:16:22,314 --> 01:16:24,414

we might talk about on this podcast.

: 1468

01:16:24,414 --> 01:16:25,494

So I'd love to hear from you.

: 1469

01:16:26,214 --> 01:16:29,904

And with that, that's a wrap and we'll

see you next week for the next episode.

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Episode 1: the Bobby Miller Story: Paddling, Teaching, and Finding Purpose in the Flow

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This episode is brought to you by the American Canoe Association (ACA)

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