Transcripts
Hello, welcome to the Close The Loop podcast.
Kevin Dieny:I'm your host, Kevin Dieny And today we're going to be talking
Kevin Dieny:about more deals versus more data.
Kevin Dieny:And this is one of those topics that came from internal discussions.
Kevin Dieny:There's actually a whiteboard here with data and deals written on it and
Kevin Dieny:arrows going to the left or to the right over which one is the better
Kevin Dieny:use of time, better use of resources, a better priority to spend on it.
Kevin Dieny:It's also one of those fun and interesting topics that,
Kevin Dieny:can be a little controversial.
Kevin Dieny:Out there.
Kevin Dieny:A lot of, I think sales organizations will be like, why would we care about data at
Kevin Dieny:the absence of deals or some, you know, operations people going, well, you can
Kevin Dieny:get deals, but if we don't learn anything from it, we're, we're not able to help.
Kevin Dieny:We're not able to do anything, you know, to contribute.
Kevin Dieny:We're not able to help the sales team and in a meaningful way that we would provide.
Kevin Dieny:Sales may counter and be like, well, how does data is going
Kevin Dieny:to translate into value for us?
Kevin Dieny:So this is a pretty back and forth one.
Kevin Dieny:So we decided to bring this into a debate, sort of a discussion around,
Kevin Dieny:you know, the counterpoints, the pros and cons of emphasizing data and
Kevin Dieny:emphasizing, um, the sales need to, you know, Not gather so much information.
Kevin Dieny:So just to ground, this we're not talking about, we're not going to be talking
Kevin Dieny:about how organizations value data.
Kevin Dieny:We are going to be focusing on how the sales organization, the sales
Kevin Dieny:team within your business, the sales leader, the sales reps, anyone who's,
Kevin Dieny:you know, selling to a customer or a patient, a consumer, anything like that.
Kevin Dieny:The value that they have on and the way they look at data versus
Kevin Dieny:maybe the rest of the organization.
Kevin Dieny:Sometimes this clashes with sales and marketing, sometimes it
Kevin Dieny:clashes with sales and operations.
Kevin Dieny:It can be a clash it could be a clash everywhere.
Kevin Dieny:This is a pretty hot topic.
Kevin Dieny:So, uh, to bring this into the debates sphere, I am joined by Matt
Kevin Dieny:Widmyer He's also my colleague here.
Kevin Dieny:So welcome Matt.
Matt Widmyer:Hey Kevin.
Matt Widmyer:Hey guys.
Matt Widmyer:Thanks for having me back.
Matt Widmyer:Good to be back here.
Kevin Dieny:So just to open this up a little bit, Matt, um,
Kevin Dieny:we are, when we say data versus deals, we're kind of like, right.
Kevin Dieny:Like we're talking a little bit more about intuitive-driven
Kevin Dieny:selling versus data-driven selling.
Kevin Dieny:That's closer to what we'd like to talk about if we're talking.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:would would I trade data for more deals?
Kevin Dieny:I think everyone would say yes, right?
Kevin Dieny:Matt.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah absolutely yeah.
Kevin Dieny:It's not exactly like, uh, it's not even a debate that, so what we're
Kevin Dieny:really talking about is, okay, well, does data is data getting in the way of deals?
Kevin Dieny:So Matt, what do you think of the whole data versus deals debate?
Matt Widmyer:It makes me laugh every time.
Matt Widmyer:Uh, I think data, data is one of those things where it's tricky to
Matt Widmyer:talk about, because if you don't understand it, you're going to,
Matt Widmyer:it seems like it's pretty useless.
Matt Widmyer:And sometimes it is, but you don't really know whether it's gonna be useful or not
Matt Widmyer:until you, until you, uh, measure It.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:So you might end up with a lot of extra fields or a lot of extra data
Matt Widmyer:points that you don't need, but you only know you don't need them
Matt Widmyer:because you analyze it and everything.
Matt Widmyer:So you don't know if you will need it at some point, but it's, um,
Matt Widmyer:the data itself is we're playing with mathematics, the intuition
Matt Widmyer:part, that's a psychological piece.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:So if you're, if you're a football team and you want to try to get a first down
Matt Widmyer:and you have the ball it's fourth and one.
Matt Widmyer:And the data says that in this situation, um, you probably won't,
Matt Widmyer:you know, get the first down based on your team's previous track record.
Matt Widmyer:But in this game also, you have the brand new quarterback in the, maybe
Matt Widmyer:the backup that replaced the starter.
Matt Widmyer:There's a few other things going on.
Matt Widmyer:The first half of the game went really well.
Matt Widmyer:Um, in situations like that, I say, if I'm the head coach, I say, we go for it.
Matt Widmyer:So there's a time and a place for both.
Matt Widmyer:So neither one of them should be completely dismissed, but I feel
Matt Widmyer:like if you're going, uh, they, they, they go hand in hand, but it always,
Matt Widmyer:usually does go back to the data.
Matt Widmyer:And if you had enough data on maybe on that brand new quarterback,
Matt Widmyer:maybe you could then assess that a little bit better, but.
Matt Widmyer:um You're not going to, unless you actually have data to rely
Matt Widmyer:on, you're not, you're just going to have to make a gut call.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, you make a really good point.
Kevin Dieny:I, I think that it's really important to note that we're not necessarily looking at
Kevin Dieny:this, like, should we be a hundred percent intuition or a hundred percent data?
Kevin Dieny:I think both extremes are bad, right?
Kevin Dieny:Data is only going to tell you the information that's necessarily
Kevin Dieny:happened in the past that's data is sort of in itself, historical it's.
Kevin Dieny:It's what it is, is information that you've gathered.
Kevin Dieny:That has happened in the past, right.
Kevin Dieny:It's telling you what has occurred, what has happened, maybe what's happening
Kevin Dieny:right this minute, um, to, to go into the future is requiring a forecast, right?
Kevin Dieny:To see your impact on it requires you to measure, okay, well, I touched
Kevin Dieny:this or I did this, and then, you know, data's going to tell you, okay.
Kevin Dieny:After the fact what happened, the problem with data, a lot of
Kevin Dieny:times is like, look at the look at the financial investors, right?
Kevin Dieny:Like we have all this amazing plethora of data historically down to the milisecond
Kevin Dieny:Around the trades that have happened, uh, on the stock exchange, but there's
Kevin Dieny:no one that is able to perfectly predict where every trade is going, right.
Kevin Dieny:Where every market price is going to be.
Kevin Dieny:In fact, they have a hard time predicting even more than a few days or weeks
Kevin Dieny:or months ahead of time like data.
Kevin Dieny:So in a sense, data has its limitations and the intuition side has some
Kevin Dieny:pretty stark Limitations as well.
Kevin Dieny:I think, like you said, like the intuition of the coach and the football example
Kevin Dieny:is based on their experience, it's based on their data in their own head.
Kevin Dieny:It's based on a lot of skill sets and stuff they're evaluating in
Kevin Dieny:the moment to make that decision.
Kevin Dieny:Anyway, it's not like they're, you know, flipping a coin and going with that, like
Kevin Dieny:pure chance or anything they're basing intuition is based a little bit on data.
Kevin Dieny:So that's how do you see the difference between intuition and data-driven?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, I mean, I think, um, I think one is using logic and only
Matt Widmyer:logic and the other one's using emotion.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:And the data is using logic and the, um, the, the gut calls and the other piece
Matt Widmyer:intuition is using the emotional thing.
Matt Widmyer:I don't need data to tell me that if it's snowing outside to, to wear uh A jacket.
Matt Widmyer:I'm probably gonna just do that.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:Um, think that like, you know, I, I'm not dumb enough to, to walk
Matt Widmyer:outside without my t-shirt on.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:Because I can look outside and see that it's snowing.
Matt Widmyer:So I think that a situation where somebody doesn't want to use
Matt Widmyer:the data, they, they think that.
Matt Widmyer:They have the answer already.
Matt Widmyer:They don't need to bother looking at, it or in a lot of situations
Matt Widmyer:based on my personal experience.
Matt Widmyer:I think that, either they don't understand the data or they don't want
Matt Widmyer:to take the time to understand the data.
Matt Widmyer:They just want to move, move, move, and go.
Matt Widmyer:So, um, fair.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:If you're held to the fire with like a, you know, hard
Matt Widmyer:quota or something like that.
Matt Widmyer:But at the same time, uh, It's funny too.
Matt Widmyer:Cause you know, you, you know, I was in marketing with you for a while and
Matt Widmyer:I was on the sales team for a while.
Matt Widmyer:Now I'm kind of in between, I mean, I'm technically on the sales team, but I'm
Matt Widmyer:sitting now in between the marketing and the sales team and the marketing,
Matt Widmyer:the marketing teams in general, I think wants to analyze everything and they want
Matt Widmyer:data points with everything And sales.
Matt Widmyer:People just want to go, go, go.
Matt Widmyer:And I feel like.
Matt Widmyer:Um I'm sitting in the middle.
Matt Widmyer:I feel like I'm, you know, um sitting there with like two parents arguing
Matt Widmyer:with each other and I'm just the kid sitting on the couch watching TV.
Matt Widmyer:But, um, so that's, that's right.
Matt Widmyer:Sometimes I feel like I don't even have the right to chime in, but, um,
Matt Widmyer:I feel like if we, if we want to marry the best of both worlds, I think that
Matt Widmyer:we do, um, If if it, it depends on so many different variables, it's not, um,
Matt Widmyer:against not one or the other it's it's, um, really going to be based on, okay.
Matt Widmyer:Is this person's track record, you know, or do they, when it comes to making a call
Matt Widmyer:like this, um, do we go down the road?
Matt Widmyer:There's they're suggesting we go down or do we sit here and stop and,
Matt Widmyer:um, You know, take a look at things.
Matt Widmyer:It's, it's just a tricky, it's a tricky one.
Matt Widmyer:I always compare it to running.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:So if your move move, move, you're going really fast.
Matt Widmyer:At some point you have to slow down and take a breath or take a drink of water.
Matt Widmyer:If you keep going, going, going.
Matt Widmyer:And you're not really confidently knowing where you're going.
Matt Widmyer:Um, you're only doing tactical work.
Matt Widmyer:You're not doing any of the strategic stuff.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:So it's, um, a lot of salespeople are okay.
Matt Widmyer:with You know, minimum strategy, as long as there's things are always
Matt Widmyer:moving and there's always action.
Matt Widmyer:There's always volume.
Matt Widmyer:Um, in high quantity things, marketing's usually the department
Matt Widmyer:that wants to add the quality into the.
Matt Widmyer:quantity So it's interesting though, but you know, I mean, we've how many fields
Matt Widmyer:have we created that we, you know, it's and it does make it hard in honesty.
Matt Widmyer:And in fairness, it does make it harder for some salespeople to be
Matt Widmyer:like, to find the right fields.
Matt Widmyer:They need to input stuff.
Matt Widmyer:Like you could only configure a CRM to a certain degree where it's like,
Matt Widmyer:oh man, I don't even know where to put the person's email or the first name.
Matt Widmyer:Cause there's like so many other fields in here.
Matt Widmyer:So.
Matt Widmyer:It is exciting to have all the data points, but it is, you know, it is
Matt Widmyer:one of those things where it's like, okay, what are we over measuring here?
Matt Widmyer:Or what?
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So you, you just hit on a lot of things, right?
Kevin Dieny:So it, and to some degree, like you're, you're putting it, you're putting a
Kevin Dieny:lot of this stuff out there in balance.
Kevin Dieny:Like the, the need from the sales side of the, of any organization is to
Kevin Dieny:generate revenue as quickly as possible.
Kevin Dieny:And to do that, you know, given the resources and stuff they have,
Kevin Dieny:which to them, a lot of times is time Like anything, that's
Kevin Dieny:a relationship driven, right?
Kevin Dieny:You're talking to other people.
Kevin Dieny:Sometimes that takes time.
Kevin Dieny:It's like an unavoidable thing.
Kevin Dieny:Sometimes it's just like one call close Someone called in.
Kevin Dieny:They wanted a service done and that's it.
Kevin Dieny:So there's not really much relationship building there, but there is a
Kevin Dieny:little bit, there is, there is some, there is like maybe a conversation
Kevin Dieny:on a phone call that has to happen.
Kevin Dieny:And so there might be data points.
Kevin Dieny:around What happened on that call?
Kevin Dieny:You know, where did that call come from?
Kevin Dieny:Where are the good calls coming from?
Kevin Dieny:Where the bad calls coming from, uh, who on the team is doing well with, you know,
Kevin Dieny:converting customer or converting callers into customers who isn't doing as well?
Kevin Dieny:How could we improve that?
Kevin Dieny:The, lot of those, a lot of that need to, okay, we're doing well.
Kevin Dieny:I'd like to do better to me.
Kevin Dieny:It comes from like a data point of view, but there are a lot of
Kevin Dieny:things that don't necessarily.
Kevin Dieny:Come from data.
Kevin Dieny:So the side, the sales sides, like asking the question, right?
Kevin Dieny:Like, well, it's difficult to quantify the sales process, so why should we bother?
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, yeah.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, yeah, that's, that's the thing, right?
Matt Widmyer:I mean, you could sit here and map out the stages and all that stuff.
Matt Widmyer:And, um, at the end of the day, if they aren't being used and,
Matt Widmyer:um, it doesn't really matter.
Matt Widmyer:So it's usually the same, uh, if that's why the inputs have to
Matt Widmyer:be very straight forward, right.
Matt Widmyer:Because if they aren't straightforward, you're going to
Matt Widmyer:have bogus inputs in those fields.
Matt Widmyer:And then you're not going to be able to.
Matt Widmyer:Um, you're not able to feel good about using the data the data's
Matt Widmyer:not going to make it's not even going to be reliable anyway.
Matt Widmyer:So.
Matt Widmyer:If you're, but at the same time, that should be managed by somebody, right?
Matt Widmyer:And whether it's a sales manager or marketing manager, or a combination
Matt Widmyer:of both or sales ops or something, depending on the size of your
Matt Widmyer:company, um, those, the way data gets inputted should be closely managed.
Matt Widmyer:If there's things that should be.
Matt Widmyer:in a CRM that are not in the CRM, you need to get them in this CRM otherwise.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah.
Matt Widmyer:It is going to be very hard to be able to use data, to be able
Matt Widmyer:to make business decisions.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:We've seen that on both on both sides.
Matt Widmyer:Really?
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So we prepared a lot of like things to go back and forth on this on.
Kevin Dieny:But is there anything in, in what you were looking at Matt when researching
Kevin Dieny:this topic, that for you is a tough nut to crack like something maybe on
Kevin Dieny:either side of the debate that you know, too much data's impeding sales.
Kevin Dieny:We should be a little bit more intuitive driven.
Kevin Dieny:Or on the other side, look, data's king, you know, intuitive driven, keeps and
Kevin Dieny:impacts, other teams from seeing stuff.
Kevin Dieny:We should be gathering lots of information.
Kevin Dieny:How does it has anything stuck out to you there?
Matt Widmyer:Well, you want to start You always want to start with gathering
Matt Widmyer:the information that you absolutely need.
Matt Widmyer:And then once you get that piece down, you want to be able to,
Matt Widmyer:okay, let's start introducing.
Matt Widmyer:Maybe we start asking this one question capturing this one data
Matt Widmyer:point Ooh That's interesting.
Matt Widmyer:Let's start asking this question.
Matt Widmyer:So I think it's, it's a general, very generally speaking, sitting in the
Matt Widmyer:middle as the innocent child, again, with your parents arguing, I would say that.
Matt Widmyer:Its this requires a great deal of patience from both sales and marketing,
Matt Widmyer:because, um, how, and this is a fair question for any marketer or salesperson
Matt Widmyer:listening to this, how much time have you actually spent trying to understand
Matt Widmyer:the nuts and the bolts of the other side?
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:Um, based on my experience.
Matt Widmyer:It it it doesn't, there's not a whole lot of that going on.
Matt Widmyer:How often do marketer's sit with salespeople and listen to demos?
Matt Widmyer:Listen to phone calls.
Matt Widmyer:It doesn't happen very often and it's because they have their own stuff to do.
Matt Widmyer:It's it's fair.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:But at the same time, you aren't seeing salespeople sit back behind you.
Matt Widmyer:Kevin, I've never seen a sales person sit behind you and kind of watch
Matt Widmyer:your day to day and kind of look at the stuff that you go through or.
Matt Widmyer:Even if you put data in front of them, they won't even know
Matt Widmyer:where to start and understand it.
Matt Widmyer:A lot of them, you know, a lot of them are not super Excel savvy or anything
Matt Widmyer:like that, but, um, you know, something that just like the, the gray, even the
Matt Widmyer:groundbreaking stuff, how can rely rely on something if it's not, if you're
Matt Widmyer:we're not confident enough of the.
Matt Widmyer:inputs Or, you know, how can we rely enough to be able to change anything
Matt Widmyer:if we aren't even sure, absolutely sure about what's currently happening.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:So I think that, you know, it is, um, I guess from your experience as a
Matt Widmyer:marketer, I mean, what, what is the thing that, that, um, I guess what is your.
Matt Widmyer:ask From a sales person that truly wants to understand, or what is it, I guess,
Matt Widmyer:what is your pitch to a sales person?
Matt Widmyer:Why it might make sense for them to truly understand everything that you go
Matt Widmyer:through to crunch the data, because it's a big piece of it, of this whole thing.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:Well, so there's this concept of like data maturity and that is the absolute
Kevin Dieny:first step, I think, because in the way that the data maturity model works is.
Kevin Dieny:uh The first question is usually, okay, what is the, what does the data say?
Kevin Dieny:And it's basically like, well, we did $50,000 in sales.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:The next maturity level.
Kevin Dieny:to to want to know more is when it's like, well, okay.
Kevin Dieny:That that's what's happened, but I want to know a little bit better
Kevin Dieny:about what caused that to happen?
Kevin Dieny:I want to look in the past and see what were the sources
Kevin Dieny:of the, let's say the sales.
Kevin Dieny:And it's like, well, they're broken into products that could be broken
Kevin Dieny:into different reps, different people, maybe different times.
Kevin Dieny:There's lots of ways to break that down.
Kevin Dieny:And then the next level of maturity is okay, now that we
Kevin Dieny:know where things have come from.
Kevin Dieny:We know maybe what campaigns it came from.
Kevin Dieny:We know where we spent money and we know where has come out of that.
Kevin Dieny:So you kind of know your inputs and outputs.
Kevin Dieny:That is the third level of maturity, which is like called like a
Kevin Dieny:forecasting or prediction, because then you're like, well, cool.
Kevin Dieny:If we do the same thing, if we hold everything constant, it, we kind of
Kevin Dieny:assume it will repeat itself again.
Kevin Dieny:And then the last level of maturity is when it's like,
Kevin Dieny:okay, we know what's happening.
Kevin Dieny:We know where it's coming.
Kevin Dieny:from And we can make predictions about what's going to happen, but let's
Kevin Dieny:put some marketing budget over here.
Kevin Dieny:Let's do a sales initiative over here.
Kevin Dieny:Let's run a campaign.
Kevin Dieny:Let's trim costs here because they're not working and let's put that much budget
Kevin Dieny:here, or let's just trim costs at all to get a leaner, you know, end result.
Kevin Dieny:And when you do things like that, that's the final level of
Kevin Dieny:maturity when you're measuring your impact, when you make changes.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:So.
Kevin Dieny:Connecting with another organization and other team at the company is sort
Kevin Dieny:of first assessing, okay, where's the maturity at And sometimes it's like,
Kevin Dieny:look, I just want to know a number.
Kevin Dieny:And sometimes it's, I want to know the sources of the number other times.
Kevin Dieny:It's okay.
Kevin Dieny:We, you know, how are we looking in the months ahead or what
Kevin Dieny:are we planning in the future?
Kevin Dieny:And other times it's okay, what can we do?
Kevin Dieny:to Change this, you know, based on the historical information, I think
Kevin Dieny:that this will See how you see how, there's different maturity levels there.
Kevin Dieny:So on the marketing side, at least the way I look at it is at least
Kevin Dieny:the way I approached it is okay.
Kevin Dieny:What's the maturity level first.
Kevin Dieny:And then second, I got to know what their goals are.
Kevin Dieny:So what do I mean if I don't know what your goals are?
Kevin Dieny:It's kind of hard for me to even begin the conversation, like, like, oh yeah.
Kevin Dieny:I, I, I know I can help you cause I don't really didn't know what,
Kevin Dieny:what, what helping you means.
Kevin Dieny:So that's usually like that and that's, that seems like such a simple question,
Kevin Dieny:a simple thing that everyone should just inherently know sales, just one
Kevin Dieny:sales, but it's a little more than that.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:Matt.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, it totally is.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, it's sales wants sales.
Matt Widmyer:That's great.
Matt Widmyer:But how, how do we repeat and scale?
Matt Widmyer:this Um, if you're not looking at data, which forecasts, if you're
Matt Widmyer:doing any kind of a forecasting, you need to look at data and those inputs
Matt Widmyer:need to be very accurate in order to be able to somewhat even ballpark
Matt Widmyer:how your next month is going to be.
Matt Widmyer:But if you're not, um, if you're just kind of living by the seat,
Matt Widmyer:you know, flying by the seat of your pants, as they say, like it's, it's
Matt Widmyer:kind of, every month is a crap shoot.
Matt Widmyer:Uh, this guy might hit his numbers, but he might not.
Matt Widmyer:I, I don't really know, but I guess if.
Matt Widmyer:If um God willing, you know, this month, maybe not next month.
Matt Widmyer:And it's just kind of like a guessing game every single month.
Matt Widmyer:If you're using the data, you can turn it into a little bit more of like, okay, now
Matt Widmyer:I'm technically managing sales, right?
Matt Widmyer:Because I'm, I, I'm not gonna, um, throw it up.
Matt Widmyer:I'm not throwing up a bunch of spaghetti up against the wall to
Matt Widmyer:see what sticks, um, now knowing that, Hey, the data has shown.
Matt Widmyer:us That, uh, we need, if you want more sales, next month, you need
Matt Widmyer:to be prospecting more this month.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:So even if this month is going great, cool.
Matt Widmyer:Let's, let's keep going, keep doing what you're doing this month, but
Matt Widmyer:next month is you're looking a little bit dry in your pipeline.
Matt Widmyer:So, um, you should start planning into that because if you start planning
Matt Widmyer:next month, next month, you're probably gonna miss your numbers,
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, that I think one really cool thing you're describing there is.
Kevin Dieny:Is when you break down what it really takes to make a sale for your company.
Kevin Dieny:So if you, if you're looking at like, well to sell, I need
Kevin Dieny:to collect payment information.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:To get that I need to have my rep or my person either on the phone
Kevin Dieny:or in person, the customer or the patient, or whoever needs to know what
Kevin Dieny:they're getting in, or have received the service that we've provided.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:How do we get there?
Kevin Dieny:And if you just kind of plot your way from.
Kevin Dieny:The sale backwards.
Kevin Dieny:You can see all these little points and you're like, okay, these have to happen.
Kevin Dieny:Maybe not necessarily in the, in the order, but these are maybe
Kevin Dieny:some pertinent things that have to occur and that's called the
Kevin Dieny:pipeline The way I understand it.
Kevin Dieny:Or the journey customer journey or something like that.
Kevin Dieny:Those points along the path are not always in your control Okay.
Kevin Dieny:So the more in control they are, the more of an influence you have, right.
Kevin Dieny:If you're like, well, I don't have any control over this then
Kevin Dieny:there's really not a whole lot.
Kevin Dieny:You can do, but let's say the marketing team is the one in control of that.
Kevin Dieny:Right?
Kevin Dieny:So, or if you don't have a marketing team an agency, if
Kevin Dieny:you don't have an agency, okay.
Kevin Dieny:Someone is in charge of some, you know, putting on a marketing hat.
Kevin Dieny:So that's their job.
Kevin Dieny:Someone's got to own each point along that journey.
Kevin Dieny:And so.
Kevin Dieny:If we're not, if we're not, you know, going along that journey to see what
Kevin Dieny:can help, it's not, it may not be a hundred percent clear how data's
Kevin Dieny:going to help your business at all.
Kevin Dieny:Right.
Kevin Dieny:And it's like, well, look it selling is a over selling as an in-person over
Kevin Dieny:the phone, human, to human interaction.
Kevin Dieny:What does data have to do with any of that?
Kevin Dieny:So, uh, well, okay.
Kevin Dieny:If you know, if to make a sale, you need to have a phone call first.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:How do we get more phone calls?
Kevin Dieny:Because if you, if you're, if you're closing, let's say 20% of phone calls or
Kevin Dieny:30% of phone calls that are coming in.
Kevin Dieny:Great.
Kevin Dieny:Will that stay the same.
Kevin Dieny:If we add 20 more calls to your thing to your pipeline.
Kevin Dieny:Okay, great.
Kevin Dieny:It will.
Kevin Dieny:So how do we get the 20 more?
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:That may not be a hundred percent of selling activity that you're, that
Kevin Dieny:we're talking about here, but that's how teams, that's how you, that's the very
Kevin Dieny:simple way to describe how a team would work with sales, you know, like to, to
Kevin Dieny:improve the selling, using data and.
Kevin Dieny:Some of that one of the big things.
Kevin Dieny:One of the things I was going to ask you about was data gathering.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:So this is where it leads to.
Kevin Dieny:Right.
Kevin Dieny:So like great.
Kevin Dieny:It seems like we've made a strong case for gathering data.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:But does data gathering get in the way of selling,
Matt Widmyer:Um, it shouldn't, but it does.
Matt Widmyer:I mean, it's try having a conversation with a sales person who's struggling
Matt Widmyer:that month and saying, Hey, um, I need you to, uh, we, we
Matt Widmyer:added a couple more data points.
Matt Widmyer:It doesn't look like you're filling this one out.
Matt Widmyer:Um It doesn't, it's not going to happen because it's there, it's already
Matt Widmyer:too late to have that conversation.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:Um, any bit of extra time and salespeople are kind of known for not making the
Matt Widmyer:best use of every minute of every day, you know, it's exhausting, right?
Matt Widmyer:So they take breaks and they walk around and they, you know, they
Matt Widmyer:just kind of need to recharge their batteries a little more often.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:They deal with a lot of rejection.
Matt Widmyer:That's why, um, It does, and it is, uh, It's when marketing
Matt Widmyer:meets with salespeople, or if, if these internal conversations are
Matt Widmyer:happening, you got to bring value to the table and you have to make it.
Matt Widmyer:Every person every person walking out of that meeting
Matt Widmyer:should have their minds blown.
Matt Widmyer:Um, that's why you probably don't want to have it daily or even
Matt Widmyer:weekly, or sometimes even monthly.
Matt Widmyer:You want to have, Hey, we've gathered enough data.
Matt Widmyer:This is what's happening.
Matt Widmyer:This is what needs to change.
Matt Widmyer:If, if you want to, because.
Matt Widmyer:Assuming you've now gotten to a point where you understand their goals.
Matt Widmyer:If you keep operating on the path you're currently on, you're
Matt Widmyer:not going to make your goals.
Matt Widmyer:That's the message they need to hear.
Matt Widmyer:Right?
Matt Widmyer:And if you want to reach, and surpass your goals, then these
Matt Widmyer:changes are critical to make.
Matt Widmyer:So if you're, if you're a sales, if I'm a sales person, You
Matt Widmyer:don't have to say it like that.
Matt Widmyer:But if, if I'm a sales person, my both of my ears are open
Matt Widmyer:and I'm listening too right.
Matt Widmyer:And taking notes and making those changes because I want to hit my numbers.
Matt Widmyer:I want to keep a roof over my head.
Kevin Dieny:Yeah, a lot of this is communication capability, but
Kevin Dieny:at the same time, there's a, so yeah, there's empathy involved.
Kevin Dieny:But what we're also talking about is like generally viewed as like the greater
Kevin Dieny:good, like the idea that success for the company is probably the penultimate goal.
Kevin Dieny:So the company has some goal or thing that they have to achieve.
Kevin Dieny:to stay alive And that's everyone that, that affects everyone.
Kevin Dieny:And then there's, you know, marketing is parsing to do what selling teams are
Kevin Dieny:parsing to do support, um, technicians, um, doctors, staff, uh, accounting.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot of different functional things that are happening in the business,
Kevin Dieny:and they all have like a specialized.
Kevin Dieny:role Right.
Kevin Dieny:So everyone's doing their part, like a, like a football team.
Kevin Dieny:Everyone's doing a different role in the team to make sure
Kevin Dieny:the whole team is effective.
Kevin Dieny:Now sometimes like a person, a person who isn't necessarily holding the
Kevin Dieny:key, carrying their weight, I think is the right way to describe this.
Kevin Dieny:A team or position a role is not performing as well.
Kevin Dieny:It can impact the whole.
Kevin Dieny:team In some cases, the team can kind of carry the weight like this
Kevin Dieny:person's job or role is not as great.
Kevin Dieny:We made plays like on a football team.
Kevin Dieny:We made plays that don't incorporate them as much.
Kevin Dieny:Cause it's not our strongest part.
Kevin Dieny:You know, we're gonna utilize our strengths.
Kevin Dieny:Right.
Kevin Dieny:And so it gets a little bit, it gets a little hard, let's say for a team, like,
Kevin Dieny:let's say, let's go, I'll go switch on the other side for a second here.
Kevin Dieny:On the marketing side, there may be data points that if I had them,
Kevin Dieny:I could do my job a lot better.
Kevin Dieny:And that's important to me, maybe important to the whole marketing
Kevin Dieny:team on the other side, on the sales selling side, right on the
Kevin Dieny:sales team side, those data points.
Kevin Dieny:Those maybe two or three more data points are not just two or three more.
Kevin Dieny:There, there are two or three more on top of, let's say a mountain
Kevin Dieny:of other things I'm having to do.
Kevin Dieny:Uh, maybe a backlog of stuff I am behind anyway on.
Kevin Dieny:So how am I going to, you know, I have more important priorities than that?
Kevin Dieny:So it, the, the tug of war.
Kevin Dieny:Can happen because on the marketing side, it's look, this is critical and
Kevin Dieny:essential and what I need to do our job better on the selling side it's well,
Kevin Dieny:look, there's no way, you know, like you're, if you're going to get data at
Kevin Dieny:all, it's going to be minimal and then it's not going to be as important to you.
Kevin Dieny:So why even ask us to do it and that tug of war goes back and forth.
Kevin Dieny:So there is an aspect here where the top down the management comes into play.
Kevin Dieny:So what do do, what thoughts do you have on how.
Kevin Dieny:important All of this is for like the culture and management of a company
Kevin Dieny:to decide how much they want to be intuitive-driven or data-driven.
Matt Widmyer:Yeah, it's, it's tricky, right?
Matt Widmyer:The example you just gave it's, um, you know, Hey, I need this, I need
Matt Widmyer:this data point to do my job better.
Matt Widmyer:Um, that's great for you, but I don't think, I mean, really right
Matt Widmyer:at that point, it is, it is about you, but full circle, right?
Matt Widmyer:It's going to end up being.
Matt Widmyer:About them.
Matt Widmyer:Right.
Matt Widmyer:They just don't.
Matt Widmyer:I think that the short-term is like, okay, I don't care.
Matt Widmyer:I don't want, you know, it's just more noise to me
Matt Widmyer:basically, if I'm a salesperson.
Matt Widmyer:So if I'm a sales person, what do, I mean, I guess I'm going to turn this
Matt Widmyer:question back over to you because if I'm a sales person, why do I care?
Matt Widmyer:If Kevin can do his job better By introducing this new field
Matt Widmyer:or whatever it is, right.
Matt Widmyer:Why, why should I, why should I care?
Matt Widmyer:And it, of course, it's going to depend on what the data point is or whatever,
Matt Widmyer:but like what, what are you going to do now that you have this new data point?
Matt Widmyer:Kevin?
Kevin Dieny:Yeah.
Kevin Dieny:So there's two things that are gonna happen, right?
Kevin Dieny:So the first one is we lose the battle because we're not able to explain to
Kevin Dieny:them the value that they would get out of it, the organization would get
Kevin Dieny:out of it, their management, their leadership, it doesn't, it doesn't hit
Kevin Dieny:that point where it becomes a necessity and adopted, and that that's one outcome.
Kevin Dieny:And that, that can be a failure on our, on any teams.
Kevin Dieny:part To not fully understand, let's say what the data is, how it
Kevin Dieny:contributes to the organization.
Kevin Dieny:That could be, you know, the onus of it is, is primarily, I think
Kevin Dieny:the responsibility is on the marketing team to really explain,
Kevin Dieny:okay, here's why this is important.
Kevin Dieny:Here's why this is going to help us.
Kevin Dieny:This is how it's going to help you help us.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot of things.
Kevin Dieny:That's why I'm being kind of general here, but there's a lot of ways that data that
Kevin Dieny:it helps marketing ends up helping sales.
Kevin Dieny:And that could be.
Kevin Dieny:like More more leads, more, uh, quality.
Kevin Dieny:That could be a better return.
Kevin Dieny:That could be faster deals that could be higher margin.
Kevin Dieny:There's a lot there that it could also just be us seeing whether
Kevin Dieny:we're spending our budget.
Kevin Dieny:Right.
Kevin Dieny:And so, you know, that helps us not to overwhelm them with, with
Kevin Dieny:crud, with time-wasting stuff.
Kevin Dieny:Now, the other side, the other, the other direction it goes is it is adopted.
Kevin Dieny:So they've agreed.
Kevin Dieny:Okay.
Kevin Dieny:We'll take on these other data points.
Kevin Dieny:Now, those, like you mentioned before, those better be valuable.
Kevin Dieny:Those better be interesting.
Kevin Dieny:Those better be contributing.
Kevin Dieny:Cause you know, if I think in three or six months down the line, if we say, Hey,
Kevin Dieny:you know, we ended up gathering enough of this information, but it actually doesn't
Kevin Dieny:help or improve what we do at that point.
Kevin Dieny:You should cut them out, should drop them out.
Kevin Dieny:It's like they're not needed anymore.
Kevin Dieny:If they do end up having a deriving value You may owe it to them to
Kevin Dieny:tell everyone here is what we've received and gotten out of this.
Kevin Dieny:There you might also, you might also get to the point where they're now
Kevin Dieny:really happy and excited because they're seeing the difference
Kevin Dieny:if they are really excited about what they are now seeing in their pipeline
Kevin Dieny:and some result, they may be the first ones to come over and say, Hey,
Kevin Dieny:this is this something's changed.
Kevin Dieny:Some things better.
Kevin Dieny:Uh, most often you only hear about the bad stuff.
Kevin Dieny:You're only going to hear, oh man, things are terrible.
Kevin Dieny:Now things are not working out.
Kevin Dieny:Um, it's just because it's more salient, it's just, you know, more recency bias.
Kevin Dieny:There's more it's, it's when you're used to rejection all the time, but
Kevin Dieny:you get like strings of them and you know where they're coming from.
Kevin Dieny:Oh man, these are all marketing ones.
Kevin Dieny:Like, man, they're just terrible.
Kevin Dieny:That anecdotal feedback can can come over.
Kevin Dieny:The data can say, Hey, these are actually better, but an individual's premise
Kevin Dieny:could say, no, these are terrible.
Kevin Dieny:So sometimes at the end of the day, data kind of wins arguments data
Kevin Dieny:can prove or show or be the, uh, the voice that is not biased in a sense.
Kevin Dieny:It can be the thing that.
Kevin Dieny:Proves to everyone.
Kevin Dieny:No, this is working.
Kevin Dieny:This is needed.
Kevin Dieny:And one, sometimes it takes one battle at a time.
Kevin Dieny:I, I think when you try to fight too many things at once, you're
Kevin Dieny:going to lose from either side.
Kevin Dieny:That's all for part one, stay tuned next week for the thrilling
Kevin Dieny:conclusion of the episode.
Kevin Dieny:Thanks for listening.
Kevin Dieny:And we hope you're getting a lot out of each and every episode that we do.
