“There’s no doubt in my mind, no doubt whatsoever, that a modular project is going to have a higher degree of quality than a conventional project. Modular allows even a small manufacturing facility to produce, you know, 100 homes in a year.”- Steven Haylestrom, The Modular Solution/Rise Up Modular
Construction is an ancient profession with deep roots in cultures around the world. While other industries change rapidly, our approach to constructing homes and buildings iterates at a snail’s pace.
As the need for homes grows, new construction techniques offer a much-needed update. Modular construction, where modules are built in factories and assembled on-site, is at the forefront of this innovation.
However, does a modular approach offer enough to sway contractors, architects, and decision-makers? Can it upset established methods, or will it remain niche, useful only in massive, repetitive projects?
Topics discussed in this interview:
- Steven’s background in modular construction
- How does modular construction differ?
- The biggest roadblock for modular construction today
- Specific benefits for choosing modular over traditional construction
- Quality and standards development
- The unique advantage of modular
- Advancements in construction methods
- The new role of the architect
- Design technology in modular construction
Send Steven an email at steven@haylestrom.com, connect with him on LinkedIn, or visit his website, themodularsolution.com.
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Steven Haylestrom:
:The other part is that modular is often in people's mind. As soon as you say that they think of trailer parks or they think of some substandard temporary type of building. But I tell you, modular now, it can be very, very beautiful.
Todd Miller:
:Welcome to the Construction Destruction podcast, where we uncover the future of building and remodeling. I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building materials. Today my co-host is Ryan Bell. Ryan, good afternoon. How you doing?
Ryan Bell:
:I'm doing great. Todd, how are you?
Todd Miller:
:I am doing very well. We are once again recording on a Friday, so I'm kind of looking forward to the weekend and a little bit of dowwentime.
Ryan Bell:
:It's almost here, yes.
Todd Miller:
:Absolutely. So do you have anything to kick us off with here today?
Ryan Bell:
:I do. I do. So yesterday I was actually off for the day because I was taking my oldest stepdaughter on a tour of a college campus, and I had to stop and put some air in my tires. And I remember when it used to be free to get air at the gas station, but now it's like a $1.50 and you almost run out of time before you can hit all your tires if you need to. Do you know why that is? I went and asked them why. Do you know why?
Todd Miller:
:I probably do, but I'm not going to spoil it, so I'll let you say.
Ryan Bell:
:No, spoil it if you know. It's an easy one.
Todd Miller:
:I am guessing inflation.
Ryan Bell:
:You got it. So I was reading the other day about heavy alcohol consumption and how it causes severe liver damage and it scared the crap out of me, so I decided to quit reading completely.
Todd Miller:
:Very good. Well, so I will let our audience know something else. We are going to be doing our challenge words in this show. And that's where both Ryan and I, plus our guest, have a challenge word that we have been challenged to work into the conversation. So, you as the listener can try to pick out and figure out what our challenge words were. And at the end we will discuss our success or lack thereof, with our use of our challenge words. So let's get going. Today's guest is Stephen Haylestrom from Toronto. Steven has great experience in construction and in particular in modular construction. He's currently president and chief operating officer of The Modular Solution/Rise Up Modular. He works to provide developers, regulators, manufacturers, contractors, suppliers, municipalities, engineering and architecture firms, and others with assistance in creating modular projects that run successfully from design to budgeting and production all the way through to final inspection. Stephen, welcome to Construction Disruption. We're looking forward to a great conversation today.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Todd. So am I. I love the name of your, the name of your podcast. I think it's great. If there's any industry that needs disruption, I think it might be this construction industry.
Todd Miller:
:Amen. I hear you there. And the name is all credit due to Ryan for that. He came up with that name, I think it's fantastic. So, can you give us a kind of a quick overview of your experience in construction and in the modular world?
Steven Haylestrom:
:I've been in construction for about just a little less than 15 years, and all of my construction experience has been in modular. I neve,r I was started in construction with a modular company and, you know, have never really done regular construction or traditional construction.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Steven Haylestrom:
:During my career, I have had to supervise or manage a couple of traditional construction projects, but it was just kind of ended up that way because of the job.
Todd Miller:
:Very good.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And I love modular, I'm a big advocate of it. And I think that it's certainly a modern method of construction that has real potential in North America and around the world.
Todd Miller:
:You know, it's interesting. I mean, modular has, seems to have, pretty deep roots in North America. And we've seen a lot of, you know, advances in technology and things happening to make it seem to be coming into its own more and more. Do you feel, I'm just curious, do you feel since you do have a history with it, that modular has been kind of slow to take hold? Or do you feel more that it's really just kind of traveled its own path? That was going to be the path it was going to be.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, I think it has taken, it's been slow to take hold. And I think the reason for that, well, there's many reasons, but I think the main reason is the resistance of the traditional construction industry to change the model that they're accustomed to. To put it in plain terms, all of the construction people out there now, for the most part, are all making money. They know what they're doing, they know how to do it. And to start a construction company today, what do you need? A pickup truck and a tool belt?
Todd Miller:
:Mm hmm.
Steven Haylestrom:
:To start a modular manufacturing company, you need an investor, you need management, etc. So it's more challenging. But I think that right now, because of the real vital need for more housing, especially modular, that's what's really projecting modular into the forefront of the construction world. Where even the bigger construction companies and bigger developers are going, Hey, modular, that might be a way I can get my project done faster.
Todd Miller:
:Wow, that makes a lot of sense, you know? And when I think about it, yeah, I mean, you know, I think about the history of modular, but certainly the history of construction is much, much longer than that. And, you know, the fact that people have become very set in their ways. Well, tell me a little bit and I know you're in Canada, but I'm sure you are very familiar with the entire North American market. You know what's out there as far as capacity right now as we look at this shortage of affordable housing and if we start to look at modular and various forms of modular as being the answer to it, do we have the capacity today?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Right. Well, that's that's a very important question, because bottom line is, for as far as modular manufacturing companies, we don't have the capacity. All of them, like now if you look at the major players, so let's say I'm a developer and I want to get, you know, a mid-rise apartment done. And so and I go, Hey, I'd like to do this modular. And I go to the modular manufacturer and the manufacturer will go, okay, sure, yes. We've done lots of this type of building. We know how to do it. That's good. And then they say, But our factory is full and we really can't start building this for a year. And so then the developer goes, Why do I want to use modular then? I'll just go back to my GC and have him do it. And you know, there won't be any savings because that modular manufacturer, you know, they're busy with, they're busy and unfortunately most of the manufacturers really haven't developed systems that allow them to react well to how their business is, you know, brought to them. So the capacity is in the modular world today, I would say capacity is the biggest problem. You could probably add a hundred, you know, modular manufacturers in North America and they'd all be full in no time. Like they'd all be busy in no time.
Todd Miller:
:That's really interesting when I think about it, because of the amount of the need we have for construction out there. And you're right, that could turn someone off real quick if they're going to do a large development or project and they find out, well, it really isn't going to be faster. So but what are the expectations of someone who turns to modular construction? What are the benefits that they are expecting from doing that?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah, well, that's the good and the bad. You know, with modular like anything, there's kind of if you remember the old movie, it's The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, right? So the good and the bad. There's still lots of people in the modular industry that will, especially in the sales part of it will say, Okay, modular is going to be cheaper, it'll be less expensive. So from my point of view, my experience says, No, it's going to be the same cost. You may save money in construction financing, right. And there may be if you duplicate the same building. Like I said, you know, that mid-rise building, if you build ten of those, if you're a developer, then you're going to save some money on architectural fees and and consulting fees, you know, like engineering and MEP fees and things like that. But the actual hard costs of construction are not going to be cheaper. What really resonates with modular is the ability to deliver the project faster. And that's why, for example, hotels, hotel chains have really, you know, reached out, glammed on, are moving forward with modular projects. You know, like some of the big chains they have staff that their job is to work with modular companies to make it happen. Some of the larger chains will have already stated that they want all their new buildings to be modular. And ask me, why is it hotels?
Todd Miller:
:Why is it hotels?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Because for them, what's the most important thing? The faster they can go from ground to booking that hotel, the more money they make. I did a project in British Columbia, in Canada, where we did I think it was, an 82-room hotel in from handshake to heads in beds in ten months.
Todd Miller:
:Wow.
Steven Haylestrom:
:So my calculation at the time was that that hotel recovered an extra, I think it was 5.3 million in revenue by being earlier than what their conventional construction was. Because in this case, this was in British Columbia in a ski town where they were able to open for the beginning of ski season instead of the next spring. So, that makes a big difference. And that's the same with virtually any hotel.
Ryan Bell:
:What's the time frame look like compared to that ten months?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, 18 to 24 months.
Todd Miller:
:Okay. Yeah.
Ryan Bell:
:About double, then.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah, yeah. In this case, we were able to do it and 50% of the time, call it. Sure.
Todd Miller:
:So today you work primarily as a consultant, right? What types of projects? I'm just curious, have you worked with projects covering the whole gamut from single family up to these multifamily and lodging type projects or?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, for me as a consultant, it's really about the job. So I work with both modular manufacturers and with clients, right.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Steven Haylestrom:
:So modular manufacturers, they don't need a lot of help with single family homes or with a development. And my role with a modular manufacturer might be to help them to expand the business, to develop new ways of building innovation in the construction, that sort of thing, or setting up a new plant or something like that. Whereas with the client, my role would be to, like I was talking to a developer earlier today and we were talking about basically looking at their projects and giving them an an independent analysis of whether it makes sense as a modular project, right. Like if somebody, if a developer wants to build an upside down triangle building, then modular might not be the right thing, right.
Todd Miller:
:Mm hmm.
Steven Haylestrom:
:So, you know, modular is is many things, but it has some restrictions, right? Like, there are some parameters that make it, you know, more challenging. Really, it's more challenging if you want it to be cost effective. Yeah, so I hope I answered the question. Sorry, I do tend to ramble a little bit.
Todd Miller:
:No, that's great. And actually, as you answered, I got to thinking about something. So in the town that I live in, there's a housing development being built right now. And this has been the first time that there's been spec homes built in my community for probably pushing 40 years. And it's a major homebuilder that's building them. They're just, I won't give their name because I don't want to embarrass them, but, you know, they're just stick-building their homes. And I'm looking at these homes going up and I'm seeing all the imperfections. And one of the things I keep thinking is, goodness, if these were modular-built, it just seems like it could be so much more controlled and the level of quality could also go up. Do you think that that's something that oftentimes is realized also through modular construction, is a higher quality level?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, I think you've hit on one of the biggest things, and this is something I have regular discussions with both modular manufacturers and developer-type clients. Which is that, in a regular construction scenario, who is the quality assurance person? Who's the quality control person? So the best they have in that would be, you would say, is the site superintendent.
Todd Miller:
:Mm hmm.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Right. So that's one person on the site who then monitors all of the quality issues, whether it's how the plumbing is put together or how the drywall is put on the wall or whatever. With modular, a good or even a reasonable modular manufacturer has a quality assurance program in place because most of the time they are required to have that in order to meet the requirements for using modular in a project. In Canada, we have a a CSA, Canadian Standards Association, a CSA standard for modular buildings. In the U.S. they've tried a couple of times to have a national standard for modular. I think they're a little bit closer.
Todd Miller:
:Mm hmm.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Now, which I think it's a, it's a good idea to have this because it, it helps to assure both the client and the building inspector, like the AHJ, the authority-having jurisdiction. It helps to make them feel better about how this building is being put together. But in that, like with the CSA certification in Canada, it's called the certification 8277. So in that, what you're promising as a manufacturer or a modular manufacturer, is you're promising one of the things you have to do is to provide a quality control program. And that program would ensure you're going to have a full time person dedicated to walking in your factory, checking as people are doing things, they will use what are called ITPs, integrated test programs, where they're going to be checking off for every individual module. Yes, okay, the drywall was done, the pipes were done. Yes, the wires are here. Yes, it's a number, you know, number 12 wire and number 10 wire. And it's in the right place and everything else. And then that really I could go on for a long time about how the design and the detail of the manufacturing or what are normally called drawings for construction, how much more detailed they are in a modular project. That's another thing that just helps you to control your supply chain and helps you to ensure you have a better quality. There's no doubt in my mind, no doubt whatsoever, that a modular project is going to have a higher degree of quality than a conventional project. And, you know, anybody can argue that with me.
Todd Miller:
:Yeah. No, I think it makes a lot of sense, again, especially as I've watched this project go up. So on your LinkedIn profile, it says that you are planning a practical, pragmatic path to truly affordable housing. Tell us a little bit about how you feel that modular, you don't remember writing that and thinking, Oh that's pretty good.
Steven Haylestrom:
:I know. I was just thinking, wow, I can come up with some good stuff, you know?
Todd Miller:
:So tell us a little bit about how you see modular construction as being that solution to affordable housing and you know what has to happen in order for that to really gain legs and become a reality?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah. Well, first, the practical, pragmatic is that that's me as a person, right. So I, I'm a practical, pragmatic. Like I look at, you know, what's really going to work. You know, let's not, let's not talk about it anymore. Let's get this stuff done. And in Canada, certainly, like the premier of our province announced a month ago that Ontario, where I live, on the province of Ontario, he's going to help somehow or another to produce 1.5 million new housing units over the next ten years.
Todd Miller:
:Wow.
Steven Haylestrom:
:So I don't quite know what's going on for the guy, but using our existing construction infrastructure, that's like an impossible task. It's not possible. And so from my point of view, what I see is that modular tech, the use of modular technology is the only way that you can. Because what modular allows you to do is it allows you to create manufacturing facilities that can then, even a small manufacturing facility could produce, you know, 100 homes in a year. And instead of, you know, ten guys who are building homes in different places could only produce ten homes in a year. So I think that that manufacturing capacity is really the only way that we can move forward. Plus, combined with, we have here in Canada, I know in Canada and I know in the U.S. as well, we have a profound lack of skilled tradespeople. And it's hard to get you know, it's hard to get young people to get involved in the construction industry. And the average age of the construction worker keeps going up because that's just the way it is. So that we're losing. So through immigration, certainly we're adding more people into that pool. But it's very difficult because people, you know, I don't know, they realize that at least here in Canada, maybe in Florida. But in Canada, we have this thing called winter and nobody much likes to work outside in the winter or work on construction. And, you know, the just the working conditions on a construction site are quite different than the working conditions that are available in a covered factory manufacturing facility. So those are some of the ways of creating the capacity to meet this affordable housing. Now, one thing I'm not answering that you did ask is how do you make it affordable, right?
Todd Miller:
:Yeah.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And what is affordable?
Todd Miller:
:True.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Because that's always one of my pet things is that people use that phrase affordable housing, right. But what does it really mean? You know, like what is affordable? Now in Canada, again, we have what's called the CMHC, the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation. So they they look after a lot of, they're kind of the government arm of of mortgage financing. They regulate mortgages, etc.. So the CMHC says that affordable housing means that if you're owning a house, your cost for the house and the taxes, like your mortgage and taxes can't be more than 30% of your income, right. Not your after tax, your before tax income.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And if you're renting, same thing, only your rent can't be more than that. Well, in Canada, I can tell you right now, it's pretty tough to meet that, because when you have housing. I live in a rural area and in Canada now, I think the average price for a house, I think, maybe Ryan can look it up while we're talking. But the, I think it's around like $800,000.
Todd Miller:
:I saw that number their day and it was in that $750,000-800,000 range and I was just flabbergasted.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Can you imagine? I have three daughters, two of them older. They're both heading towards decent careers and everything else. But imagine how much you have to save and how long it will take you to save and to be able to put away a mortgage if your house is 700,000 and you want to put down 10% on the mortgage, that 70 grand. Try and save 70,000 bucks nowadays. Well, maybe Ryan can because he's you know.
Ryan Bell:
:I don't know about that.
Steven Haylestrom:
:I just want to save enough money to go out and buy a watermelon, you know? Right. Watermelon's my favorite, my favorite fruit. And it just, you know, when I'm thinking about saving, I'm just thinking, you know, because all the watermelons, there aren't very many grown around here in the frozen North.
Ryan Bell:
:Yeah, probably not.
Todd Miller:
:Well, it shows that, you know, you don't have any real elaborate dreams there. It's just that watermelon. So that's, that's good.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yes, that's it. That's all there is too it.
Ryan Bell:
:I just want to be able to put air in my tires. Steven wants to eat some watermelon.
Todd Miller:
:Going off of that, you know, thinking about building this capacity. I know that there are some options, you know, to what we think of as modular construction where, you know, there's modules being built and shipped and carried and craned around and stuff. I mean, there's other options out there, such as panelized construction. You had talked to me earlier, Steven, about something called subassemblies manufacturing, which means not necessarily everything has to be manufactured under that one roof, although it gets assembled there. But you bring parts and and assemblies in from other places. Do you see that as being a bridge into full modular construction or an alternative to it or, you know, how to how do all of those work together?
Steven Haylestrom:
:I think the real answer is that it needs to be all of those things need to be done almost simultaneously, right. So that you can do all of them. So the kind of the vernacular for that is like a kit of parts, right? So you develop this kit of parts and then once you have that kit of parts developed, you can have an assembly facility where you assemble those, those different parts together, create a volumetric modular unit, and then ship it the way they're doing now, right. So you can, that that helps you not only to use a smaller facility, because you've got your assemblies are being made at different factories. It's closer to an auto-type manufacturing thing where you've got another manufacturer as a long term contract to build doors. So that manufacturer's down the street and all they do is pump out doors. And then when you need 100 doors, you just call them up. Hey, Cindy, can you send me a hundred doors? And they send you a hundred doors and it's the same. That's where modular, where you want modular manufacturing to go to that type of thing. But then if you want to take the next step, which is what the word I coined a couple of years ago, is pop-up modular. So that's where instead what you do, is you have a you say, Okay, I want a well, you can even, let's say you want to do residential, you know, 80-home residential development, right? So what you do is you, first off, the civil work is the same. You go out, put up your connections, put in the foundations, everything else. But then at the side, beside your your development, you put up one of these nice spring tents, right? Like the big hoop tents, and then you bring all your parts and you assemble them there and then you just lift them. In other words, you take your sub assembly model and put it right beside the development. And then you you put all your pieces together and then put them in place. So that way, instead of having these big transport trucks coming with big modules and a huge crane and everything else. Instead you build the modules right on site, then place them onto the foundation directly there. And I like that model. Now, I'm certainly making it much simpler than what it really is, right. You know, it's always easy to explain it, but I've done some detailed analysis on this, and it's not just my imagination. Things like this were done in the UK ten years ago where they actually used, they did this not only as an affordable housing, but this was like a, you know, a subsidized housing program in the UK. Where the people who were going to live in the building did the assembly, built the building right beside it and then put the building together. You see what I mean? So the people who end up living in the building actually built the building. So I think that has some some opportunity as well, both from that social action point of view or just from a business point of view. If you want to do a pop-up modular type thing and then you can just take that, move it to the next site and pop-up another building.
Todd Miller:
:I love that idea and that makes a lot of sense that all of these different options need to work together if we're really going to move forward and meet the needs that are out there. I want to switch a little bit and talk about some of the challenges. I heard recently of a town which is a town that badly needs housing, where a developer had proposed building a community of 30 modular-built cottage homes. And frankly, other people in the town created quite an uproar. They weren't happy about that at all. And really, that kind of surprised me because what he was proposing seemed like a great solution. Are you finding those negative reactions? Are they becoming less to modular construction these days or are does it still exist out there?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, there's a couple of different things going on there. It could be what's called NIMBYism. You know NIMBYism, or is that a Canadian thing?
Todd Miller:
:I'm not familiar with it.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Okay, so NIMBYism is a short form for Not In My Backyard.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Right. So some of that can sometimes be, like I said, I live in a rural community and there is a group here that we want to keep our area beautiful, which is code for don't build any more houses because, you know, I want to keep looking at that tree. So you have that not in my backyard attitude.
Todd Miller:
:Sure.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Okay. But the other part is modular is often in people's mind as soon as you say that, they think of trailer parks, okay? Or they think of, now, they think of tiny homes. Or they think of some substandard, temporary type of building. In fact, with the CSA, one of the things I was just talking to them about just the other day was my strong suggestion that what they do is to develop a new standard that they would call permanent modular standard. Because that standard I was talking about, the 8277 was originally developed for temporary housing and it's now morphed into what's used for permanent housing. But I think that from the point of view of users like and for people, they still have this picture in their mind, Oh modular, it's going to be cheap and and, you know, not good. So I think that's what happens between those two things. But I tell you, modular now, it can be very, very beautiful, very beautiful.
Todd Miller:
:Absolutely.
Steven Haylestrom:
:The project I'm working on right now for duplexes, where each duplex has a rooftop patio, a green roof, solar power, you know, all in a two bedroom, 1200 square foot duplex. So, you know, with a brick exterior, you know, I mean, that's not a tin can or a trailer park, that's for sure.
Todd Miller:
:Not at all. I'm going to show my naivete here, but I'm kind of curious, are there architects out there who are designing, using modular components? Is that happening or most of the designs coming out of the manufacturer themselves?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Sorry, I am chuckling because my wife and I have an ongoing joke about how well I get along with architects. Not because, because the bottom line, again, it's this is the history of construction. And in construction, architects are always kind of at the top, right. So an architect considers themselves in charge of the whole project. And in a modular project, because of the way it's developed, architects really are, they're a partner in the design. And their scope, their scope of work, their role is not really diminished, but it's different than what it is in a modular project. And so often there's conflict over how things are done. But in Ontario and in Canada, really, it still remains that you have to have an architect sign off on your building as part, they call it, the architect of record.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Right. And normally, the architect also acts, they act as the project coordinator for all of the consultants. So like the structural engineer, the MEP, like mechanical, electrical, plumbing, engineering team, landscape. Like they act as the project coordinator for that. Now in modular projects, to get your maximum value, you really want to have your design lead be, your design team be that project coordinator so that the architect checks on all of this because they have to sign off on it. And because they're project insurance actually covers the whole project, right. Again, just the the history of how projects work. So they have to sign off on it and review, but they don't do the same amount of work. Their main task beyond the initial design, like the initial drawing or rendering of what the building might look like. Their task becomes mostly ensuring that the building meets all of the building code requirements. So they are code reviewers. And so a lot of architects don't like that idea. You know, it just affects how they feel about their own architectural world. But more and more architects and architectural firms are in Toronto. I know of at least one, I think probably one plus two other ones that specialize or one that's totally all modular and two that are know modular really well and understand the projects and understand these things. So it's certainly growing. But other architects just, you know, like a week ago, I tried to explain to an architectural firm how a modular project works and well, he didn't hang up on me, but yeah, it was not the happiest experience.
Todd Miller:
:You were a real friendly audience there. I gotcha. I gotcha.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah.
Todd Miller:
:Well, so as I look at it modular in general, there are some companies out there, especially with some investment dollars and private equity, are really trying to make some waves right now in modular offsite construction. Of course there's the ill-fated Katerra, but there's other companies very active right now. Companies like Boxabl, Factory OS, and Mighty Buildings are three that come to mind for me. But what are your thoughts on companies like these? Will they be the ones to lead the way into significant development and change and new technologies in offsite construction?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, they're certainly on the leading edge of it, right. And the challenge is for them like Katerra. So, you know, to give you a little history of me. Before, I like I said, I've been in construction for 15 years, but prior to that I was in the organic food business, believe it or not. But in in Canada, I was on what would be called the bleeding edge of organic farming, because in Canada 20 years ago or more people, you know, people didn't want anything to do with organic. So nowadays, you know, everybody's looking for organic food on the shelves, right. And the big grocery stores carry it. Wal-Mart has organic, right. When my family had an organic farm, which we did, you know, the grocery stores would laugh at you. So my concern is that certainly Katara was kind of like on that bleeding edge, right? So they were teaching everybody else how to go and then they fail. And so I think that these other people are a step ahead of that and they have some real opportunity and I have my fingers, toes and everything else crossed that they will be successful because, you know, there's enough room for probably 20 more companies like each of those in the marketplace and they're really needed. And I think they have, you know, all three of those that you mentioned are good. They have good, solid ideas, from what I can tell. I mean, I haven't been there or anything, but from what I'm seeing in the news and reading about them and what I hear, they're all doing good things for sure.
Todd Miller:
:Yeah. No, that makes sense. They've, they've got the, the bucks and you know, hopefully they'll be the ones to help drive things forward. So I'm curious, any of our listeners out there who may be in design or construction and they find themselves kind of intrigued by what we're talking about, where would you suggest they go to learn more about a few possible careers in modular construction?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, another great question. It's really quite a good one because, and in the background, one of my projects I'm working with actually with a large Indigenous group, Aboriginal group here in Canada, is to develop a certification program that would create a certification in modular construction, right? So if you're working in a modular factory, really, you become, you know, a jack of all trades because you really, when you're trying to find the best people to work in a modular manufacturing facility, you know, you want to find people who are adaptable and can work doing different types of jobs. It's the same with, we're talking now. We're talking all about, you know, building the actual boxes in the factory, right. But the next big part of this is that you put the boxes in place and then somebody's got to seal them all up and do that site work. And that's a whole different thing. Like that site work, again, is quite different than what it is in a conventional project and that causes a great deal of grief in the modular industry because it's hard to find, like we talked about architects, but talking about general contractors and how they react when, you know, when they're getting 10% of the work on site instead of 100% of the work in really. And you'll find that in the US anyway, there's a number of companies that specialize in modular installation. Alright, so they will work with modular companies and do just that installation because in that, you know, like putting the building together and finishing and all the finishing because really even like we're talking about this imaginary apartment build, mid-rise apartment like that, you might really only need like 15 people for six weeks to finish it. And so, but you want to have the right 15 people who understand what the jobs are. So hopefully I answered that question, I got kind of diverted to the site aspect. But we hadn't had a chance to talk about the site yet because and it's an important aspect of modular. Because that site, that's another kind of challenge in the industry is to be able to get that site work done competently and properly.
Todd Miller:
:Sure.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And meet all the requirements, right.
Todd Miller:
:Well, and I see that as a real career opportunity for folks, too. I mean, as you develop more offsite construction, you're going to need more people for that site work. And, you know, that's ideal for the folks who, you know, really do want to be outside and they want to be doing real hands-on stuff. And I see that as a great opportunity. I'm glad you brought that up.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah. And you know, that's a good point, and I hadn't really thought of it. But yes, it is really an opportunity for the people who do like to work on site and, you know, inside, outside, etc.
Todd Miller:
:Sure.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And it gives them a career path because probably in five years, ten years at the most, there'll be a lot more modular manufacturers around and a lot more opportunity for doing that.
Todd Miller:
:Yeah, it's good stuff. Well, this has been great. I've really enjoyed this, I think we've learned a lot and I'm sure our listeners have as well. We're kind of close to wrapping up what I call the business end of things. Is there anything we haven't covered today that you'd like to share with our audience?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah, good question. No, we've covered a lot, really. Pop-up modular.
Todd Miller:
:I like that.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Kit of parts modular, same kind of thing. Volumetric, which is the boxes. We've talked about standards and quality control. I don't think I gave my little thing about know the different. Oh, the only part we might spend some time is to talk about the design aspects.
Todd Miller:
:Okay.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And then the, this is another opportunity certainly for people out there, which is, it's like right now, like certainly for a single family home or even a mid-sized building, an architect can produce floor plans and elevations and, you know, a good estimate or conventional estimate or can order all the wood and everything for it. And a decent general contractor could build that building just on those. So for modular, though, it's very important to be able to create very detailed drawings. And generally the best practice right now is using a program called Revit, and you use Revit 3D, you make a three dimensional model of each of the boxes, and then you make a model of the entire building. And then you can see exactly how each box is connected to the other box and all of the electrical and plumbing and everything can be done. So there's a lot more. And you use another product called BIM 360 to kind of act as the coordinator for all of those so that then you can have like your electrical contractor, you give them access to that BIM 360 model. They can go in and make sure they can actually do their estimate for site work based on using that BIM 360 model. So I think there's, so that the design part of that project is generally quite a, you know, it's quite is more complex. I don't know how, I don't want to quantify it but is more complex and but that assists in the quality the supply chain and, you know, a positive outcome in the end. So certainly I think there's, because there is a shortage I was again ttalking is somebody who can't find people in Canada who can use Revit. Oh and before I forget, another thing is the use of augmented reality, right. So are you familiar with augmented reality in construction?
Todd Miller:
:Sure.
Steven Haylestrom:
:So, yeah, I bet you are. So this is another real disruptive force in construction is the use of augmented reality, especially in modular. Because what you can do basically is, is for example, when you're setting the modules, you can you identify your point on the foundation, put your your AR glasses on, and then it will show you precisely where that module is to be landed, what has to be done inside the module to connect them. Like there's all sorts of wonderful tech out there that costs money, but, boy, it sure is fancy, sure is nice. You know, maybe you got to have some of the bigger guys involved to put the money out for that. But lots of fun. Anyway, that's it.
Todd Miller:
:Well, I love that, though, because again, career opportunities for folks involving modular off site construction, but yet folks who are more have a technical bent or a design bent to them. Again, lots of career opportunities and lots of opportunities, it seems to me, for people to get in on the early stages of what is going to continue to be a growing and big, big thing going forward.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Indeed.
Todd Miller:
:This has been great, Steven, thank you very much. Before we close out, I do want to ask you if you're willing to participate in something we call our rapid-fire questions. So these are seven questions that may range from serious to silly. All you got to do is provide a quick, short answer to each one. And our audience understands, of course, if you agree to this, you don't have a clue what we're about to ask you. So are you up?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, the problem you said there Todd was they have to be quick, or they have to be short answers. I think after our short time together, you realize that's a hard one for me, but I will give it a try.
Todd Miller:
:Awesome. They don't really have to be short answers, but that's, that's the only rule.
Steven Haylestrom:
:I will do my best. I'm ready for you.
Todd Miller:
:Well, we will alternate. Ryan, you want to ask the first question?
Ryan Bell:
:Sure, I'd be glad to. Kicking things off. What was your favorite childhood TV show?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Superman.
Todd Miller:
:That was a quick answer, that's good. Question number two, are you a morning person or a night owl?
Steven Haylestrom:
:I am a morning, I would say, a morning person. Yes, I tend to fall asleep on the couch.
Todd Miller:
:For me, as I have gotten older, I used to be more of a night owl. But anymore, no. I'd rather get up in the morning and get stuff done while I can still think I guess. I don't know.
Steven Haylestrom:
:You know, Todd, I was going to answer it like that, but I didn't want to talk about my age.
Todd Miller:
:Sorry about that.
Ryan Bell:
:Alright, next question. What is something about yourself that might surprise people?
Steven Haylestrom:
:I'm a classically-trained pianist and my major instrument is trumpet. And I used to play big band jazz.
Ryan Bell:
:Oh, awesome.
Todd Miller:
:Very cool.
Ryan Bell:
:That's cool. I played saxophone up through eighth grade and I quit because I didn't want to be a band geek in high school.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Thanks.
Ryan Bell:
:And, no, but how stupid is that? That I you know, I worried about that. Now, I feel, I regret giving it up and not playing it. I wish I could still play, so.
Steven Haylestrom:
:You can take it back up again.
Ryan Bell:
:I know. I've thought about it. I've looked for some saxophones on, you know, like used saxophones, but I don't know. I'm learning how to play the guitar, so. But I regret not playing because I, as a, you know, as a high school student, I had that stigma that I didn't want to be a band geek. And I wish I would have been a band geek.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah, yeah, I understand that. And I'm very fortunate because my, as I think I said, I have three daughters. They're all musical. My oldest daughter is a music therapist. So music has always been a big part of our family.
Todd Miller:
:That's awesome.
Ryan Bell:
:Cool.
Todd Miller:
:Well, Stephen, I still have my Bach Stradivarius from eighth grade, but I haven't played it since college. But I may pick it up again someday, you never know. So, next question. French fries, potato chips, or neither one?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, I'm Canadian. Poutine.
Todd Miller:
:Poutine, yes, I should have known.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah, that's french fries with cheese and gravy.
Todd Miller:
:Made even healthier than french fries and potato chips together would be.
Steven Haylestrom:
:I know poutine is uh, I wouldn't call it healthy in the least.
Todd Miller:
:I hear you.
Ryan Bell:
:What's your favorite season of the year?
Steven Haylestrom:
:It switches between spring and fall. But I think the spring really because I do enjoy watching the trees come back to life. Like I said, I live in a, now live in a forest. So that's great. And then we had a farm before and I enjoy the spring, yeah.
Todd Miller:
:Awesome.
Steven Haylestrom:
:And I'm very fortunate, just to add in, because I'm in Canada where I am, we have four beautiful seasons. I mean, Canada, I think is, I have had the privilege of living and working in virtually every part of the country. And it is a gorgeous, wonderful place.
Todd Miller:
:I agree.
Ryan Bell:
:I was wondering if you still had four seasons where you were. I mean, we get to experience all of them here in Ohio, and I absolutely love it. My wife does not. She wants to live where it's summer year round. But I love the seasons.
Steven Haylestrom:
:I think you'd get bored with it. I think you'd get bored with it after a while.
Ryan Bell:
:I do too.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yeah.
Todd Miller:
:Question number six. Do you prefer prefer an active, noisy environment or a quiet place?
Steven Haylestrom:
:I prefer. You mean, when I'm working? Or is it when you're working or when you're?
Todd Miller:
:I would just say in general, maybe to decompress. Some people decompress in a active environment and others quieter.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, again, as you can probably tell from talking to me, I'm a gregarious people person at heart. So I love to have people over for dinner and that sort of thing and and have conversation and debate politics, you know, like US midterm elections. Are you going to cut that out of the tape?
Todd Miller:
:No, no, no. I'm just wondering if it will have been settled by the time this actually airs. We'll find out, right?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Yes. So and I am definitely, you know, a political-minded person. So I must say, when I'm working, I do like it quiet, although I often listen to music. But that's a good question.
Todd Miller:
:Cool.
Ryan Bell:
:Final question. Is there any word that you absolutely hate?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Probably, it's like more of a phrase, which is that it can't be done.
Todd Miller:
:Oh.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Right. Because I'm a firm believer in that, really you know, there's a way to get everything done.
Todd Miller:
:I love that.
Ryan Bell:
:Love that.
Todd Miller:
:Well, one other thing I want to cover here is our challenge words. And I'm pleased to say that we were all successful at working in our challenge word. Mine was the word elaborate, which I kept wanting to use as elaborate instead of elaborate. Ryan, your word was?
Ryan Bell:
:Consumption.
Todd Miller:
:And you were successful at that, right?
Ryan Bell:
:Yes. I worked it in with the cheesy alcohol consumption joke at the beginning.
Todd Miller:
:There you go. That was it. You got it done early. And Steven, your word was?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Watermelon. Thanks for that nice, easy one. Although it remains my favorite fruit and that was real.
Todd Miller:
:You did a great job of working it in, thank you. Well Steven again, this has been a real pleasure. Thank you for joining us today.
Steven Haylestrom:
:It was fun. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you.
Todd Miller:
:For folks who would like to get in contact with you. What's the easiest way for them to do that?
Steven Haylestrom:
:Well, you can, let's see. Probably, my email is easy, which is my name. Steven, S-T-E-V-E-N at Haylestrom, H-A-Y-L-E-S-T-R-O-M, .com. Steven@haylestrom.com or on LinkedIn you find me Steven Haylestrom. You know, and on LinkedIn I have all my email and that sort of thing. So all of those are good. The website is themodularsolution.com, so yeah.
Steven Haylestrom:
:Todd Miller: Very good. Well, we will put those in the show notes as well. So thank you again. This has been great and I want to thank our audience for tuning into this episode of Construction Disruption with Steven Haylestrom of the Modular Solution/Rise Up Modular. Please watch for future episodes of our podcast. We always have great guests. Don't forget to leave a review on the Apple Podcasts or YouTube. Until the next episode, though, change the world for someone, make them smile, encourage them. Two very easy, simple things you can do, but yet so powerful to change the world. God bless, take care, this is Isaiah Industries signing off until the next episode of Construction Disruption.