110: "Conflict is the way to peace." Emotional elasticity, inner work, and the enneagram with Jenn Whitmer

Artwork for podcast Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth

Episode 14 • 4th October 2021 • Holding Down the Fort by US VetWealth • Jen Amos

Jen Amos 0:00

All right, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the award winning podcast show holding down the fort. We actually pre record the intros now, so I'm gonna try not to repeat myself as I normally do. But I'm Jen emos, a goldstar daughter, veteran spouse and advocate for military families, particularly spouses. I've been obsessed with spouses as of late, because my husband and I have been working on a book to focus more on making financial literacy more understandable for spouses. And so that's been kind of fun and top of mind for me. And as always, I am really, really, really grateful to my co host who's here today, active duty military spouse of 12 plus years mom of two boys mental health advocate, J. Lynch troop for bringing this conversation today. So Jenny Lynn, welcome back to the show. Hey, so happy to be here today. Their joy Bringer. Yes, yes. And we are excited as we always are. I mean, I'm especially excited because whenever Jenny Lynn invites someone to the show. I know it's going to be a good one. So without further ado, we have today Jen Whitmer, who is a former military child talk keynote speaker and professional development consultant, writer enneagram coach, which I'm really excited about because my enneagram numbers have been off. Last I checked. So my mic into conversation today, and also a joy Bringer. You can learn more about Jen Whitmer. Now, if you visit her website, Jen whitmer.com, which is about JENWH it and er.com. So we have a lot of gems on this conversation today. But without further ado, Jen Whitmer. Welcome to the show. Welcome.

Unknown Speaker 1:29

It's like exponential Gen time. Very exciting.

Jen Amos 1:33

Yeah. So I think for our listeners, I might say everyone's full names, just in case there's like, wait, who's Gen? Who? Gen. I don't know which Gen, but Gen. Whitmer. I'm gonna do it now. Here we go, man get started. Actually, let me go back to genuine here. So genuine. You invited Gen. Whitmer to the show? Tell us a little briefly about how you guys know each other and what compelled you to bring her on our show here today.

Speaker 1 1:51

Oh, man. So we're Instagram friends. That's really how I know Jen Whitmer, kinda like you and I, Jen Amos. We met on the internet before meeting in real life. We are both at the same writers group and did a like, we're part of a group that did like an Instagram follow for a while as we would post about our writing and different things. And I just really love the things she brings to the internet table, if you will. They were always informative and fun. And then I had the chance to work with her as a coach with her leadership coaching. And I'm actually getting ready to start leadership coaching again, because I love leadership and coaching and Jen Whitmer. So we are internet friends, hopefully someday soon in real life friends. An amazing, super fun story about us. So yes, tell the story. While we were working in a coaching group, right before Christmas, we learned that her uncle, aunt and uncle, the uncle was my dad's college roommate in pharmacy school, and they've remained like friends to this day, they like go out to dinner, all this stuff. And we were talking because my dad was a pharmacist. And we were talking about what it was like, like growing up with a independent business man, like as a dad, and I was like, Yeah, he's a pharmacist, and she goes, Oh, Rachael is a pharmacist in Virginia, too. And I was like, there are a ton of independently owned pharmacies this day and age, and she says his name, and I was like, Oh my gosh, like we actually know him in real life. I have been to his pharmacy, they came to all of our weddings, we went to all of their kids weddings. And so we do have an in real life connection.

Speaker 2 3:41

Totally. And we've probably actually met then at those kids weddings, because I was at all of them, but

Speaker 1 3:46

we just don't know. Yeah, so it'll remains a mystery. Someday, I'm gonna sit down with my aunt and comb through pictures and see if

Unknown Speaker 3:53

we can figure it out.

Jen Amos 3:54

I love that. That's amazing. When you can make that connection like way later in life. You're like, wait a minute, like I could have met you like at this wedding I could have we could have been friends like sooner. That actually reminds me of I remember I had a new neighbor. When I used to live with my mom, we have this new neighbor that like I would always hear for like a handful years kind of like yelling at her kids calling her kids that come downstairs and stuff like that. And then I remember going to a networking event. And I was referred to meet someone. And the funny thing is five years later, I get introduced to her my very own neighbor, like at a coffee shop. And she's like, oh, like I remember we were leaving. And she's like, oh, where do you live? And I was kind of describing the area and she's like, oh, we're like we're literally neighbors like we were like five years I had no idea that this woman this entrepreneurs military spouse was like literally next door to our place. And so I think it's just beautiful, you know, as time goes on when we can, you know, connect with people and kind of backtrack, like wait a minute, like I could have met you there. You know, that's just crazy. I love it. But yeah, obviously I've been talking a lot Jalen and talking a lot. So I want to go ahead and just, you know, turn it to you and see if you had any opening thoughts based on everything we shared so far.

Speaker 2 4:59

Oh, wow. Opening thoughts. Well, I'm super excited to be here. I always love hanging out with Jenny Lynn, in really any capacity. And I'm so happy to meet you and love to just hearing as we were chatting a little bit before a little bit about your story growing up and how our upbringing impacts what we do in our daily lives today, I always call it our real life walking around life, that what happens for us in early childhood and growing up impacts where we are today. And I'm just excited to be here to talk about how serving military spouses and serving military life is something that is really powerful, that I think it's sometimes forgotten. Not always, but sometimes it's hero wised in a way that it's like, oh, that's not the actual support. I mean, I'm super happy. You're clapping for me. But I need something more than that. And so I'm excited to offer that and give back a little bit.

Jen Amos 5:52

Yeah, for sure. And we're really grateful to have you, you know, we've had jennylyn. And I definitely had discussions with a lot of guests on our show, really, how, if anything, you know, society tends to either romanticize or dramatize the military life, but it's hard to find sort of the in between, it's like, well, you know, what do we do when that service member is deployed? Like, what are we doing in between? What are we doing, you know, for the day to day with the kids, etc, you know, and so to be able to actually sit down and focus on the military spouse in the family, and take care of them as they hold down the fort shameless plug for a show. Because you all are listening to the show already, but I just did it anyway. But just in case, I forgot what they were listening to. It's fine. Yeah, I know. I mean, it's cool, because, you know, a lot of people who consume podcasts listened to more than one podcast show. I definitely did that myself. So just reminding y'all that this is a whole nother part. But Jen, you know, we talked a little bit about this offline, you and I have something in common and is that your upbringing was also that of a military child. And I would love for you to just share a little bit about what your upbringing was like. Another thing we talked a little bit about offline is sometimes when we're not as involved in the military community, I tend to find that people maybe have this like weird imposter syndrome of like, Oh, I don't want to share my story, because I wasn't really in it for that long, which I don't think is true. I think every experience is valid. So that being said, Tell us a little bit about your experience as a military kid.

Speaker 2 7:09

are unstable, and I was like,: 1415

: 12:08

Because I read, like someone forget that theater, 28 years of his life was spent as marine. So I think that's an interesting component where I watched it be a part of his identity that was never going to leave, like that wasn't going to change. Anyway. So those are just some of the funny experiences and learnings that I had from living as military kid. Yeah. Well, thank

Jen Amos: 12:31

you so much for sharing all that, Jen, I feel like you almost downplayed your experience talking offline. So I really appreciate you elaborating on that experience, and really acknowledging how early on, you knew that you were kind of having this unstable upbringing. And, you know, the ground was always kind of shifty, in a sense. And you have to develop this resilience or the emotional plasticity, as you had mentioned. And I often think that, you know, we spend our adult lives trying to unpack our childhood. Oh, and I really, and I feel like even today, you know, 20 plus years later, after losing Dad, I still go back to those times, I still think like, why is it so difficult for me to, you know, really stay put somewhere? You know, it's like, oh, well, I'm just so used to having moved two to three years. Like, why do I try to keep a wide cast of friends, but not really have? I mean, I do have, like, a handful of close people that I trust, but like, Why do I keep my network, you know, expansive, and constantly growing, because you just never know, like, you have to kind of, you know, circulate through your friends because things change people have, you know, people have lives. And I think about when I go back to unpacking my childhood, and even the years after that, it's like, oh, that's where it's coming from, like, I'm trying to, in a sense, heal my inner child or trying to, you know, save that young girl that didn't know the craziness of that military life that she was going through. I want to hand it over to Jenny Lynn, see if you had any thoughts and is any of this information Jen shared new to you?

: 13:54

Yes, all of it other than the fact that she was military child. I've never heard the whole thing. Also, while she was talking, I noticed there's an exclamation mark at the end of her name, which made me extraordinarily happy, because I know her enneagram number and it just, it made me chuckle. And all of the USMC swag and Oh, right. Oh, gosh, extraordinarily, like giggling because it is just having been around all branches at this point. Like it is just such a thing. And I really,

: 14:28

and I can recite to you the fights, quote, unquote, fights between my dad and his brother, who are 14 months apart as grown men, if he was in the Navy, and my dad was a Marine, and like, I could recite to you the fights and my mom who was also in the Navy, completely different personality type just sitting over there not saying a thing, like so funny. Oh,

Jen Amos: 14:51

yeah, that's hilarious. So Jen, let's fast forward to your life today. So you are a conflict resolution communication and enneagram, speaker, writer and coach And I imagine that a lot of your upbringing may have inspired this. Am I guessing that correctly? You know,

: 15:05

in some ways, yes, I was talking to somebody this morning about how all the things in your life prepare you for where you are. And I never would have anticipated this. I started my career as a music teacher. I loved it. I taught kindergarten through eighth graders like junior high kids are the best. And, and what I have discovered is junior high kids are the best training ground for working with adults. Because we like to think we've moved past that. And we have yet it comes back. And that's when the things happen. And so I think that the things that I learned growing up, I've had to unlearn in some way. So my dad's family is fairly stereotypical. In this Italian, large, loud, Catholic owned grocery stores and restaurants, like all the things, yeah, first time my husband came, we knew each other in high school the first time he came, like as an actual date, not just like visiting my single family or nuclear family, but my extended family. It was like My Big Fat Greek Wedding. He was like, What is happening? Why is everybody shouting? Why are they yelling at each other? Why are they angry? And I'm like, no one's mad. No one's even having a fight, I don't understand. And so I had this idea that I was really good at conflict, because that's what I grew up with when x ray, I just reframed it as no one's fighting. It's not a big deal. And so it was actually avoiding the roots of the conflict. And because people talk about stuff didn't necessarily mean they were resolving conflict. Yeah. And so when I started working with conflict resolution, I started identifying and like, Oh, crap, I'm actually a conflict avoider. And I didn't even know it. And so moving past some of that, and starting to see where some of those things are great. So I'm not afraid of people raising their voice. I don't tremble in fear at that, because I see it as excitement, because I've reframed it, but also having to learn that doesn't necessarily mean you're talking about the real issue. And learning to uncover the layers of conflict has been one of the exciting things about learning about conflict resolution, and helping other people through it. Because often in conflict, I call it being a conflict archaeologist, because we think we're talking about what's on the surface, when actually, that's only one tiny layer of it, it's layer after layer, after layer. And when we get to deep things, such as what am I afraid of, in this conversation, that's when we start to solve things, that's when things change. And we can say, Oh, I'm actually afraid you're gonna leave me even though we're talking about the toaster on the counter. And so it's about the toaster on the counter, but it's actually a much deeper fear. And when we get to that deeper fear, and we can admit it, most of the time, most of us are like, Oh, my word, that's totally not what this is about. So I can move on from that they're not going to leave because I'd left the toaster out on the counter. And I can start, start to deal with that. And sometimes it's like, oh, wow, that fear is controlling me, in so many areas of my life. And now again, I can start to deal with it. So I think that's how my upbringing, this kind of unlearning of what I thought that I knew, has helped me shape how I sorted out conflict in my personal life, but also supporting other leaders, and relationships on how people work through conflict, because I genuinely believe that conflict is the way to peace, that we have to work through conflict and kind and genuine ways to get to the other side. Because if we avoid it, I mean, it's just lipstick on a pig, no one's getting anything. We don't really genuinely make or create peace. We're just keeping it and that's unstable. And unsustainable.

Jen Amos: 18:58

Yeah, absolutely. And I know that you recently posted on your social media a posted you know, with a quote that says if you avoid conflict, you manufacture fake peace. And I definitely could relate to that with my family also coming from a Catholic background, and you know, just kind of sweeping things under the rug. I don't know what it was like. And I have a pretty loud family too. Now, I think about my mom. Like when she's on the phone, talk. She's like yelling while the TV is on full blast. And while she's like watching YouTube on her laptop, like it's hard for me like, this is why I'm not staying with her while I'm in town, because it's like, it's just constant noise in that house. But I totally understand the loudness. And you know, being raised in a Catholic family and just kind of that whole, sweeping things under the rug. It's very, you know, you have to spend the rest of your life even for me, part of how I, I think I became a podcaster is I've just had this desire later in life to find the verbiage to connect with people to build that bridge. And I know for you one thing that you had mentioned even on your social media is is that you are constantly amazed that we are more connected in the end and your whole goal. is to help people become more connected and whole. And part of that is unpacking that fake piece. You know, and not sweeping things under the rug. And, you know, I know that even in our military families and Jenny Lennar, feel free to speak on this, like, you know, one thing I learned is that sometimes military spouses and service members don't talk amongst each other about their real issues. Because if they do, there might be a chance that the service member may not be deployed, or be deployable. So it's a real issue, you know, that we sweep things under the rug. Oh, man, see, I

: 20:27

grew up the opposite of both of you there is not a loud person in my family. So when I got married and married, someone who's just naturally loud and early gets louder in conflict, I did fundamentally had no idea what to do with that, because we were a family of if you don't talk about it, it's not like everything's okay. It was a different kind of sweeping it under the rug. Yeah. And so my husband comes from if you weren't yelling, you weren't talking loud enough. Like, I was like, Oh, this is so fundamentally different than the way that I come at this. And from like, a military family perspective. I mean, we didn't have a ton of time to work those things out before, like, military life kind of swept us up, like, we got married. And literally on our first anniversary, he left for OCS, and for OCS, went to training and from training, went out to a ship and from ship went out underway and from underway went on deployment, came back with another deployment. I mean, we were married for like four years, before we ever lived in the same house for more than, you know, five hot minutes. And so you know, you compound that with also having the experience of having gone in to conflict, like real life hot conflict, where people are shooting at you. You know, it's not a recipe for an awesome stable marriage, when you have someone who's like, it's fine. If we don't talk about it, we're good. Like, and, like, if you're not shouting, you're obviously not very passionate about what you're saying. And therefore, it's also fine. You know, it's it for us, we have both had to not only unpack some of our childhood stuff, but then also unpack, like our early years of marriage and realize that in this our 12th year of marriage is nothing like what it was when we first got married, you know, one of the pastors at our church in San Diego said, you know, he's been married 10 times all to the same woman. But like, you know, that each, you know, they're iterations of marriage. And I mean, I would say that like now in our 12th year, we are entirely different people than we were when we first got married. And it's required a lot of work and a lot of work on conflict resolution. And honestly, when I worked with Jim before, I mean, she knows this, I laugh, like every time she talks about the number that Matthew is on the inia gram, because it is just so very much him. And I'm like, oh, that explains so many things. Different explains it all. Also, for me, digging into that kind of stuff. I will say like, when I first started learning about the enneagram, and then digging into it with a coach and reading a lot of books for me. It unlocked a piece that I did not know I needed, you know, it, let me know that it's just the way that I operate in the world. And there is I can do to operate more healthily in the world. Oh, you know, that's a word more in health today, in a much more healthy way. But I'm still always like, this is my default, like, I'm always going to present in this way, I'm always going to question things, I'm always going to look at 59 different possibilities before I land on one leg, which is completely different than the way Matthew operates in the world. And so again, like, looking at that the ways that we've done things, and doing the work has helped us I think, survive a lifestyle that can be very untenable and hard to sustain if you aren't willing to do that kind of work.

Jen Amos: 24:10

Yeah, definitely. That reminds me of a conversation I had with three seasoned spouses, which genuine I have to bring you on that conversation. I need to bring it back on the show, so we can all chat with each other. But you know, one of them had said, you know, this military life is the three DS it's deployment, divorce and death. It's a hard, hard life. And so I appreciate you sharing that and even sharing with us like kind of tried you and Matthew trying to unpack the early stages of your marriage. Jen Whitmer, I want to turn it back to you and see if you had any thoughts you want to add upon what genuine nature?

: 24:39

Well, I think as she was talking, I just am like, I'm so proud of her as her coach. She did a lot of that work even before like we started working together. But the thing that is so powerful is that we had to figure this out. There isn't a magic recipe there is Oh, I have to do some inner work. For myself to know that this was my normal, and I married somebody else who has a different normal. And our goal as a married couple is to create a new normal together, that is healthy for both people. And you can't do that without understanding yourself first. And I think that's what the power of the enneagram is. So if I said to you, right now, I'm sure some of you are driving in a car, so don't do it if you drive in the car. But if you're walking, or you're standing in a desk, if you close your eyes and turn around, and then I say, keep your eyes closed, but sit down, the first thing you're going to do is grab for something to figure out where you are in space, you're gonna grab the chair, the counter, the desk, whatever it is, and that's the work of the enneagram. Who am I, I can't connect to you, I have no Velcro. If I don't know which side I am, actually, in a marriage situation where you are trying to create a shared life. That's the goal of marriage. And then you add the I mean, friends, that is already hard. So my husband and I grew up in the same town, and we went to high school and junior high. We're in the same church, the same youth group, we were best friends, before we ever started dating at 17. And we got married at 21. And still 24 years in is still like we are creating a shared life. Now, do we have it easy? In some ways? Yes, we have a great start. And let alone this idea of like you said deployment divorce and debt, like the intensity of a life in the military, just adds to that. And so anytime that you're working on yourself as a military spouse, or as the service member, knowing that oh, this is what I'm bringing to the table, this is what I'm showing up with changes everything. Because you think I'm shown to the table with a bicycle and a toolbox, and the other person across the table is showing up with purple, and fabric. And you're like, what is that it can be so different. And learning how to create the shared life together is really the power of communication skills, being willing to be vulnerable and say, Oh, this is my normal. And this is what I need. And listening to the other person saying this is their normal, and this is what they need. And starting to communicate through that. And so the enneagram supports all of that work, because it helps you see what's motivating you on the inside. And as gentleman was saying, she knows that this is her way of being in the world. And the work of the enneagram is saying, oh, what can I allow to fall away. So I can make these healthy choices. And one of the things they say a lot is the enneagram has like a ferris wheel to it. We've got this one weakness that's going to keep coming back around all the time. And hopefully, we start to realize it when the gondola is a few ones away, before it smacks us. And we're like, oh, crap, here I am again. And so the better we are at understanding our own inner worlds, we're like, oh, wait, that's what's coming. That's what's motivating me, I can step out of the way I can be prepared when it's coming, whatever it is, rather than being caught off guard. And then having this outsized reaction that has nothing to do again, like with the toaster, and has everything to do with I don't want to be betrayed, I don't want to be left behind. I don't want to be rejected all of those deeper issues that the enneagram helps us see.

Jen Amos: 28:24

Yeah, so for me, I've heard about the enneagram. Or I started learning about it, I think three years ago and crazy obsessed about it. I remember sharing it with my husband and one of our colleagues. And they you know, it turned out both of them. Or at least I know my husband turned out to be a type seven, which is an enthusiast from what I gather from the intagram Institute website. And it was funny when I learned it, because it made complete sense with his energy and his spontaneity and his big ideas, but also his need to kind of feel like how quickly you can pick up and take off if we really need to, you know, I remember when we moved from San Diego to Virginia, he just wanted to get rid of like everything. And I'm like, wait, well, don't you want to sell it like Don't you know, like, I ended up giving it to my mom who like did a garage sale for us, like while we left, but just kind of his personality made sense. And it was also funny, like how he went like 100% with the idea when he was obsessed with the enneagram and said like, oh, our entire team should take this enneagram test. We got to find this out. Like he was totally obsessed about it. And so I

: 29:21

mean, a seven catch phrase could be I'm really into whatever, right? This minute, not tomorrow, but today.

Jen Amos: 29:30

Yeah, exactly. So I definitely have grown to enjoy the inia gram at the time. It's interesting. And Jen, I'd love to get your thoughts on this. So I took one test, which was titled The essential inia gram done by David Daniels. And I took this one one of my friends who's a therapist uses this for her clients all the time to figure out what their enneagram is. And at the time, I figured out that I was a five. So I was like I was a type five. I'm like the investigator. I have a very vast inner world and I absolutely believed it. In fact, I still believe it till this day that I do like to Retreat. And I used to have I have like papers from my childhood of me like writing fanfiction for one of my favorite video games growing up and really creating this, you know, fake world because I was not done with the game, but the game was done with me. So I had to, I had to elaborate on that expand the story that I lived with, you know, I can't believe I said that, that was actually pretty clever. I was like, well, but anyway, just, you know, having that vast inner world. And then my therapist this year, during the pandemic, I had to retake the test to do EMDR, rapid eye movement therapy, and I am tied. So in case anyone's interested, I am tied between a type seven and a type eight, I don't know which one is my type. I was like, I cannot be like my husband, where I'm like, crazy, sporadic ideas, I'm probably more of a type eight, because I am a challenger, I am direct with people. So I'm kind of stuck on it. But either way, I, I when you when you know your type, or at least when you when you, you know, at least for me wholeheartedly believe that type five was my type. I really got into it, you know, and it really made sense. Like my world suddenly made sense, you know, and, and I started to compare type fives of type sevens. And I was like, honey, this is why we clashed on some parts, you know, like just all these things. But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at right now with my type. I feel like I have like a blog or change? I don't know. But I'd love to just kind of get your thoughts on that in regards to you know, a couple years ago, I took this test. And now here I am, you know, doing intensive therapy. And now my type has changed. Is that a thing? That happens?

: 31:27

Great question. I love this question. So there's a couple things I want to address and all of the great things that you just said. So the first one is about tests in general. So as we've been talking about the enneagram, as a personality framework, it is a lot of deep work, it is the deep motivations of who we are it is I don't want to be controlled or betrayed, I don't want to be in conflict. But yet I want my voice to be heard. I want to be good and right and not out of alignment with what the standard is, I don't want to be rejected, I want to be successful, I want to be seen and known. I want to know and have all the knowledge, I want to be prepared for things that could happen. I want to experience life to the fullest because I'm afraid of pain. These are deep motivations. And I've said those and we all have those, we all have every one of those. And so it is about which one is driving your bus. So one of them is running the show, the rest of them are still along for the ride. And they say things and they try to tell us to go certain places, and they try to grab the navigation system. They're all around there. But there is one that never leaves your driver's seat on the bus. And so figuring that out, understanding your inner world is a lot to ask from a multiple choice test. Yeah, it's

: 32:46

just a lot to ask. When we're talking about strengths finders, Myers, Briggs, dis Colby, all those are talking about the how and the what of the way we live our lives, the enneagram is why and how I see the world. And so that tests are fine, I don't want to hear people to go Oh, my gosh, you should never take a test. If you're taking any gram assessment, I always want you to think of it as a data point, as an indicator as like, you should probably look at this map. Not this is the thing, and this has decided me and that is my identity for forever. So that's just as you're taking an assessment. So most enneagram teachers believe that your enneagram type does not change over the course of your lifetime. But one of the things that's great about the enneagram is that it doesn't say you always behave in this certain way. It just says this is what's always motivating you. And the goal is that our behaviors get better, that we start to live in ways that are more kind and healthy to ourselves and to others. And so the motivations don't change, but the way we cope with them starts to change. And that's the dynamic nature of the enneagram. If you've ever seen an enneagram symbol, it's a circle with like all these crazy lines in the middle. And that's what the lines are about. It's like what do you look like when you're growing? And what do you look like when you're stressed? And what behaviors Do you grab for? And what are you looking to achieve in those types of spaces in your life. And so you coming up with a five and doing deep dives into things makes a ton of sense if the end connected to seven and eight, because those three numbers share lines, and they're next to each other. So it makes so much sense to somebody who is just has enneagram knowledge, but to you who are just discovering it, you're like, Oh my gosh, but which 1am I and so digging into that idea of like, do I need to know and have the knowledge because that's what makes me feel safe? Or do I need to not be controlled by other people? So that's where I'm getting the knowledge and that's the question that divides the fives and eights and starting to say oh wait, which one is Is it because when eights share a line with five, they can do all the healthy things of five, which is deep dives, and like observing and strategy and all that good stuff. Or they can do the unhealthy side of five, which is I'm just going to go into my hole for a while and do the deep dive and ignore the rest of the world because you feel dangerous. And they can do either one. But eights are always going to do that. I'm going to protect my people. So I'm going to deep dive into like, what does this mean, and research and so I know what's going to protect, so I won't be controlled, whereas a five is going to do that deep dive because I need to know because I need to be competent. If anybody needs something from me, it's not so much about the protection of control. And that's why the test is a great indicator, but you have to do the inner work of typing yourself. And so even as an enneagram expert, who is has typing interviews and helps people figure out their type, that is still the work of the person I'm working with, I give them like, here's what the data is showing, here's what I'm hearing in your voice. Here's what I'm saying. And here are the descriptions, which one is you. And that's where people really dig in. Because the work of typing yourself is like the training wheels of enneagram work. Yeah, skip over that it's a lot harder to learn how to ride the bike. And so that's why I always encourage people that if they're using an assessment to make sure that it's a really good one. So that one you're talking about is great. I love the ready from the enneagram Institute, I think that's a really good one, make sure you're using good tests, and then hold it really loosely, and start digging into yourself. That's my thought on tests. And if people change.

Jen Amos: 36:39

Yeah, well, thank you for that free consultation there. I think, to me, I'm thinking to myself, you know, I feel like I definitely am leaning more toward the challenger, the type eight, mainly because I do fight for my people. And a lot of it is doing that inner work. And one thing that we wanted to really focus on today is, you know, the military spouse and what they can do, you know, some kind of takeaways in regards to like, in order to help your people, you need to help yourself first. And so I feel I really resonate with that message. And so jennylyn I know that you have been working very closely with Jen Whitmer here, and I have to remember, we're all Jen. So I need to make sure I say, but, you know, you've been working with Jen Whitmer, what has it been like for you, you know, let's say from a military spouse perspective, to work on your inner world with Jen, you know, to show up for your family and this, you know, crazy military life.

: 37:27

So for me, the work has looked like realizing when she said, like, the motivation is to be prepared so that you're not caught off guard. That is, that is my motivation, identify most closely within enneagram six, which is why I said when I discovered that it brought me so much peace, because I never could figure out why I seem to be the only one in the room, who was worried about whether or not we had enough snacks enough, whatever, like, and nobody else cared very deeply. And so for me doing the work and finding out the program that I did with Jen is her new catalyst program. And it really digs in to not just the motivations, but like, where we move and health and stress. And Jen helped me out. I just had it and it's like gone now they're like three things we did specifically that were fascinating to me, because I came to Jen, with a pretty solid knowledge of my number, like, I did not do the typing things with her. I came with like three solid years of reading a ton of books, and being a very nerdy about it and really went to her is like I want some next level information and like self discovery.

: 38:39

Yeah. So we go through when I'm doing coaching with people, I always want to give them an overview of what is this thing? What is this enneagram so they know what they're using? And and like Jenny Lynn said, she did come with great knowledge about herself and understanding the enneagram. But we dug into the stress and security, how does that show up for you? So you can be aware like, Oh, that's my lane departure warning. So I can adjust for that. But also, what's your leadership style? How do you relate to people, your conflict resolution style, I think the one that I remember giggling the most with Jenny Lynn is when we did decision making styles. Because talking about how different enneagram types make decisions between her husband who identifies as an eight and jennylyn as a six, they're very different styles. They have similar conflict styles, but different decision making styles and how that shows up in their partnership was really great to unpack. And so those are the types of things that when you're starting to dig in, you see how the enneagram impacts the way you communicate, the way you make decisions, the way you interact with time. We don't even think of time as something that is something we interact with. But we do and I mean, Jen, we hopped on the call in the very beginning and you were like, here's the bullets. Here's what we're doing. Here's the task list and it was great. And that's a great Skill knowing that doesn't bother me. It's fantastic. But if you hopped on the phone with somebody who really needs the niceties, like they need the, Hey, how you doing what's going on? And they need that, like two or three minutes of warm up? Wow, can you think about the power of that, like your ability to adjust and welcome somebody in and get what you want at the same time? It's amazing. And that is the work of the enneagram. Yeah, powerful,

Jen Amos: 40:25

genuine, I saw you grab something. So did I

: 40:27

grab my notes from going through the catalyst training with Jen, because when she said that, I was like, Oh, we did laugh pretty hard about that. Because literally, the first word for Matthews is instantaneous. And there is nothing and I repeat, nothing incident about anything that I do, ever. Again, back to like the motivation of preparedness, like, I'm going to have a list. And then I'm going to add to the list. And I'm going to add to the list a little more. And I'm going to gather all the things that I'm probably going to remember that we probably need extra some of this like, and so yes, we have a really good laugh over that. And the other fascinating thing that I learned and she just reminded me was that when we talked about conflict styles, as we kind of talked about earlier in this conversation, I thought I was coming at a conflict with this, hey, we're not going to really talk about it. We don't talk about it. Everybody's okay. Where's my husband comes out of this. If you're not yelling loudest, you're not clearly you're not talking loud enough like, which to me look completely different, like, look totally different. The truth is, is that the numbers that we both identify with actually have a very aggressive conflict style, which explains so many things about my marriage. Many things about my marriage where I thought I was being this, like, very southern, it's okay, sweep it under the rug kind of thing. I really was just constantly pissed, like,

Jen Amos: 42:04

constantly pissed the fake piece we're talking about. Yeah,

: 42:08

yeah. But I mean, I was handling it, and it was fine. And I would just keep showing up. And he's like, meanwhile, you know, being very loud. When I learned that I had a more like, aggressive conflicts I was like, because for me coming from both my background like growing up in the south, and kind of like the morals and values that you grew up with, and being female, and also being a six, who's very concerned about not ever being prepared enough for anything, and feeling like there was too much conflict, or like, really, I guess it was feeling caught off guard by the amount of anger and or passion, I felt towards something. And even in my leadership style, that is something that I continue to work on. Because I tend to if I care very deeply about something about work, when I tried to talk about it, as I often do on this podcast and tear up, I tear up, not because I'm sad, because there is so much there for me that matters so very deeply, but I get teary. And that's how I fight like, I'm not crying because you hurt my feelings, or because I can't handle what you're saying. I'm crying because I care very deeply about whatever it is we're arguing about toaster or eggs, whatever. Like I care very deeply about whatever is under that. And it's sometimes hard for me to express because I have a very list like brain. Here's my husband's like, you just do the thing. And I'm like, but I just did 15 on things, and I'm still not done.

: 43:50

And part of your list is how quote unquote, you should respond. Yes. So that was super important to know. Because so if Jenny Lynn and her husband are both what I call dynamites, in the enneagram, conflict style, well, so Matthews like sure and explodes, where jennylyn is almost like that. Well, she's learned more now. But like those buildings that explode, and then immediately implode, there's like this initial like, boom, I'm back in or you can't see my hands, sorry, podcast people. But there was like an explosion that goes out and then immediately implodes in and because she's going through that list, I'm not supposed to respond to this way. I'm not supposed to do this. And then I have to be prepared for all of these things. So that huge dynamite anger explosion is often happening on the inside. That's why she's walking around pissed all the time. And, like, figuring out how to cope with that is really powerful, like all of a sudden, now I know and it's out in the open, and then we can do something about it. I have another client right now another coaching client who happens to also be a military spouse, and she's in enneagram two, and so enneagram twos are servant hearted. So when you're in a role, and her job is also an executive assistant, so her Roll is about serving, or she is a wife, she is a mom. She's a military spouse, and they are getting ready to PCs. And so all of that is happening. And she is like, I have nothing. I don't know who I am. And so she is working on what do I actually need in this moment? As enneagram? To that's not the question they asked, they're asked, What do you all need, and is coming to that and working through the best way I can serve my husband, my son, my community, is by figuring out what do I need in this moment. So I'm not resentful, or manipulative or all the other things when we deny our own needs, how they come out, sideways. So every enneagram type has something to work on. And it's amazing to watch the growth of somebody coming into their own, and letting the things that genuinely are harming or hurting them fall away, the personality doesn't change, but they let the tightness and the unhelpful barnacles shall we say, fall away. And they have this amazing ability to stand, as Rene Brown says that you can have a soft front, strong back and standing your sacred ground, I've messed up the quote, but that's that idea of, you can be open hearted and stand your sacred ground to not shrink back. But also to give from a place of strength is so much more powerful than to give from a place of weakness. And it's really amazing to see the work that people do in their inner worlds and how it shows up outside of them.

Jen Amos: 46:37

Yeah, I want to highlight what you said, Give from a place of strength, you know, that is the key to healthy conflict resolution from what I'm hearing. And part of that strength is doing the inner work, you know, really unpacking that inner world, and not just doing the self diagnosis, like, you know, I had and what Jenny Lynn had before she spoke to you. But I mean, yeah, do the self diagnosis and also receive that help, because we need people such as you, Jen, Jen Whitmer, because this is audio, you know, to really help us see outside of ourselves and unpack like all of this stuff we've been collecting, you know about ourselves. And so I think you're doing some incredible work, Jen. And I'm just so grateful. I was already looking forward to this conversation when I you know, looked you up online. And when Jenny Lynn told me a little bit about you. And I feel full from our conversation today from talking about, you know, your background as a military kid, to our talk with our military spouses and you know, the self care that they need work on the inner world to just the enneagram I mean, I feel like enneagram is like a conversation, we could spend hours on days, years. Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna like flew back now. And before we go for another hour, and I just want to ask you, Jen, for anyone that's ready to get started on that inner work or exploring their inner world? What are some baby steps that you recommend for them to get started? Oh, yeah. So

: 47:53

a couple things. One is, I mean, totally connect with me. So follow me on Instagram, I do funny things. But I also post real stuff that has genuine tips to help you. So if you're not quite sure, you're like, I just want to start dipping my toe into that. I'm not going to probably do your enneagram colors for fall. But I will give you tips on how to face conflict resolution with your enneagram type or what is self care look like for your enneagram? Or what is the enneagram and go through some of that. You can find all kinds of great resources on my website at gentleman wmur.com slash freebies. And the best one to download is called Why do I keep doing this? It's a four to six page PDF. It's a little booklet. So if a book is too much to get started, this list the motivations of all the nine types and you can start to discover which one fits me. Which one do I cringe at? Or which 1am I like, Oh yeah, that's what's happening for me or these three seem close. And just start that exploration process. Suzanne's to Beal is one of my favorite teachers of the inia gram and her podcast is called the enneagram journey. And I love that because it's a journey. It's a life journey of figuring ourselves out. And how do I in this new situation? How do I show up? Because every day, it's a new situation. And sometimes it's amazing because you've got something new that is exciting and fun. In some days. It's like, Oh, this is a new day. And now it's hard. What do I do? And so that journey of discovering yourself. So I think those are the best ways just to start getting started. If you're like, Wait a second, I need all of this and you want to have a conversation with me. I would love to talk to you. I always enjoy having conversations with people so we can continue a conversation. And at that same place jen whitmer.com slash freebies, you can sign up for a time where we can hop on a zoom and unpack a couple things and see what you need to help you discover what's next for you what self care looks like for you or what type of support that you need to really live in that strength like you were talking about.

Jen Amos: 49:50

Yeah, fantastic. Well, I appreciate you sharing all that Jen. And of course Danielle and I want to thank you for inviting Jen Whitmer on our show any closing thoughts that you want to share? with Jen.

: 50:01

Oh man, I just I like just like you was very excited about this conversation. I love any again love anytime I can spend with all the Jen's

Jen Amos: 50:12

cool i can't i don't know what to say we're just cool.

: 50:15

Super fun way to spend an hour on a Tuesday after an admittedly kind of tough weekend. So this was lovely. And I'm so glad you came on.

: 50:26

Thanks for having me. Always. Again, it's mutual. I get very excited when I get to see Jenny Lynn. And if you don't know her in person, I always love it when she also wears her fake lashes. It makes me happy. I always enjoyed that. It was so great to meet you, Janet. I just love the work that y'all are doing to support this great community of people. And so I'm really grateful for the work that you do.

Jen Amos: 50:47

Yeah, thank you so much. All right. And to our listeners. Thank you all so much for joining us, and we'll chat with you in the next episode. Tune in next time.

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