Join us on the Your Practice Mastered Podcast as we dive into podcast marketing for law firms with expert Robert Ingalls. Discover how Robert transitioned from law to podcasting and learn actionable strategies to enhance your firm's marketing efforts. Whether you're looking to nurture leads or establish thought leadership, this episode is packed with insights to help you elevate your legal practice through the power of podcasts. Don't miss it!

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And I feel like every day that goes by. That path gets a little bit longer. They've got a lot of choices and there's a lot of content to compete with, but that's where I think that this medium shines is it's one of the only ways that you can really speak directly to somebody and feel really authentic.

The videos have been around forever and I think they can be really impactful,

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Introduction and Guest Welcome

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But Robert, first and foremost, thank you for being on the show.

Robert Ingalls: Hey, it's such a pleasure. I've listened to some of your old episodes and just some of the guests that have been on here. Mike Michalowicz is just one of my ultimate people that I've been following, who has helped me so much in my business and he doesn't even know it. And so to follow people like that is just an honor.

MPS: I appreciate that. And Mike is absolutely an awesome guy. He's done a lot of exciting things in the world of business. And I'm sure, a lot of people fall right into that boat where he's probably impacted people in ways he doesn't even know, which is pretty cool. So, thank you for being on. And looking forward to kicking in and learning a little bit more about this.

But you said you've seen a few episodes, so you know, probably what's coming next, which is breaking the ice a little bit.

Breaking the Ice: From Shy Kid to Podcast Expert

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Robert Ingalls: I think, most people that know me as an adult don't know that I was probably the shyest kid ever. I don't really remember this, but apparently in kindergarten, I didn't speak to my teacher until after the Christmas break. I didn't open my mouth. I was so terribly shy. And it's really surprising to people who know me as an adult because I mean, people who will listen to this podcast will probably find out quickly.

It's really hard to get me to shut up now.

MPS: I love it. well, Maybe, we've got the title of the podcast right there, from shy to podcast expert. You wouldn't think the two go hand in hand, but here we are.

Robert Ingalls: I knew, I wanted to talk to people. I knew, I wanted those relationships as I was growing up. And so I just learned, you got to lean into the discomfort weird thing, and I leaned in hard.

MPS: Being comfortable and being uncomfortable is good. It allows you to grow into a stronger person, and I think diversifies you as a human being. so, uh, Props to you for being willing to do that. And I want to hear about this a little bit.

Journey from Law to Podcasting

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How did we end up here?

Robert Ingalls: What a road. I Guess, I practiced law before I made my way into here. And that's why it's LawPods. It was what I knew. If I learned anything in law, it was get in a niche, be the person who does the thing, and the farther down you can niche, the better. And so, when I was making that pivot, I thought naturally, like, I think it's coming. And I think, lawyers are going to be really late to the game, so that'll give me a head start. I was right about that. It did definitely work out that way.

I was like, that, I mean, the height of luxury. And wearing suits to court, I thought it was all so, so cool. And being from the community I was in, there was so much status around that. And I was like, I want that. And I was really into following criminal cases, as a kid. And probably because my mom was, we watched a lot of the stuff on TV.

We had a murder that made national news happen in our, my hometown when I was like 11 or 12.

My mom, let me, she took me to watch a small portion of the case. And I was just wow. well, Firstly, there's a guy who murdered some people right there. But watching the arguments and the whole thing was really exciting.

And that kind of locked it in. I was like, I'm, I want to go do this. And I wavered into philosophy and religion in school for a short period of time, but I made my way back. And going to law school, practicing, started in criminal defense, but it was only a couple years in when I realized, like, I am not built for this.

And that is not what my day to day life was like. And it wore on me pretty bad. And then, I, I was on the appointed list. So I ended up with a lot of really tough cases, a lot of domestic violence stuff. I have four sisters. I'm the only boy. So I think, that made it a little harder to. I'm, here championing people who I don't think are doing very good things. The things that you hear, the things that you have to do while ethical didn't feel good.

Right. And so I leaned in, and, but eventually, it all kind of came to a head when we started talking about having a family and I went, no. like I cannot be this person, and be the kind of father I want to be. And that was the moment that kind of sent me off looking. like It just said, okay, I'm going to go look and I found, I found podcasting. And I learned so much.

I mean, Within 30 days of listening to my first podcast, I owned a thousand dollars worth of gear, I mean, this microphone that says a lot about my personality, go big or go home.

MPS: Yes.

Robert Ingalls: and it just, it, you know, it took a few years before I realized, hey, I can take this hobby, and do something with it.

It took some time. There was a lot of struggle, but that's probably for another day.

Robert Ingalls: Yeah.

Discovering Podcasting and Personal Development

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Robert Ingalls: ended up finding podcasting because I kind of had a little freak out when we started family planning. And I just didn't know what to do because I was overwhelmed, barely hanging on in a law career, wasn't making any money either. Like That's something I don't think enough people in the outside world know that if you don't know how to do it or you don't get in with a firm that teaches you, like just trying to do it yourself, it can be really difficult to figure out how to get profitable.

And I liked that book.

It got my head around some issues I didn't understand. And then I read his book, EntreLeadership, because I was doing a piss poor job of running my law office. People did whatever they wanted. And that book said, listen to our podcast. And that point, I'd never done that. And so I go and I listen to their podcast. And then while I'm in there, I find this other podcast Awesome Office and Tom Bilyeu was on it. First episode.

MPS: Yep.

Robert Ingalls: Founder of Quest Nutrition. Just, I mean, That episode blew my mind. It was the first time I really ever heard anybody talk about the concept of mindset, and creating your life. Instead of being like, this is who I am thinking, who do I want to be?

And start doing those things, and building that person. And I was like, Oh dear. I just thought this is, you are who you are and you do the things you do. And all of a sudden, this guy had given me license to think about anything. And I did, and I chased it.

And I realized, okay, this isn't really working for the law office. My passions clearly lie elsewhere. And so I broke the podcast off, and just started interviewing people in town that I thought were cool and interesting entrepreneurs. you know, We had a local state senator that would come on almost any podcast that would ask him.

So I brought him on and talk to him. I found this really unique way to talk to successful people, learn about them, and do it with a podcast that I thought was really fun. And so I just everywhere, everywhere I went, anywhere that had a podcast studio, I showed up. And I became known in these circles as the guy.

I didn't know what I was going to do. I did not see myself as somebody who could do what I do now. I just didn't see myself as that. My mindset still wasn't, where it needed to be. I thought other people do that. People that went to school for that do that, right?

But

Building a Podcasting Business

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Robert Ingalls: I'm at this party for a lawyer networking event, and one of the lawyers there just asked me, said, I see that you're doing all this podcasting stuff. Do you think you could help me?

Yeah, I'd love to help you. Client number one. I go to his office, we make his podcast. I had a lot of fun with it. And I thought, there might be something here. And I said, all right, I'm going to kind of try this out. I'm trying a lot of other ideas to making even less money now that I'm starting to pull out of law.

And that's when I looked at what I was doing. I said, okay, I love this podcasting thing. I really love it. I'm going to take it. I'm going to really take a stab at it. And so, I started trying to hustle that. I got a 9-5 at the bank in compliance. And just started building this on nights and weekends.

And it was just over two years. It took me before I could quit that job.

MPS: Congratulations. You embodied the make a living from 9-5, and a fortune from 5-9, right?

That's very, very cool. So you said, it took just over two years. I'm sure, that was quite the feeling at that two year mark, huh?

Yeah.

MPS: it's a heck

Robert Ingalls: I don't know if any, yeah, For anybody that watches Arrested Development, I've made a huge mistake. That's what it felt like, oh no. Thankfully, I mean, I think we all know what happened after that too. It worked out.

Digital marketers, the ones that were good, saw a lot of good things in their business because all these businesses had extra money. They had this marketing spend. And for a lot of the clients I have now, they came to me because they had spend. And some of them were very frank. Look, we have this spend. We lose what we don't use, and we might get less next year. Some of them even bought extra from me before the year ended, just so they could use their budgets. And I was like, this is amazing. I hope this never ends.

MPS: Really nice. Yeah. something you never want to end, right? Yeah. Hey, get extra at the end of every year. That's really cool. And, yeah, It was a heck of a time, it ended up being a really good time for most of the digital world.

Why Law Firms Should Consider Podcasting

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MPS: So tell me, why is it that law firms should really consider having a podcast? What's the importance of it?

Robert Ingalls: Go back to you know, Simon Sinek, start with why. I always say, why are we doing this? Because there's a lot of different reasons to do it. Now, like, I have a lot of clients that are injury lawyers, trial lawyers, And a lot of them are interested in nurturing leads.

They have pretty robust lead gen systems. And they are using their podcast as a way to speak directly to those leads while they're in the funnel. Somebody shows up, they hit the website, they have questions. We know exactly what questions they have. They ask them in every consult. We've heard them all.

They're not going to do it themselves. hear that sometimes. Oh, I don't want to give them too much information. If you're worried about, that's not a client you want. That's what I tell people. If you're worried about them doing it themselves, like send them on anyway.

And you're giving them just enough information that they feel better about their problem, but they feel better about you. You are the expert who explained it to them. They got to understand a little of your personality, maybe a little of your sense of humor. And they go, that's my person. I like that. I want to call them. Let's call them.

And that's what you want. You want them on the phone. Because at that point, they're yours to lose. And then they sit down, you have a consult with them. They hear your voice again. They already feel like they know you. And now, we're greasing the wheels a little. We're helping nurture that lead to a point where we can get them to yes. Cause we all know, they leave our odds of locking them after that. Go down.

He's been at it a long time. So, it's such a cool thing to be able to work with him on that, but he has a podcast where he brings on other trial lawyers. A lot of them he doesn't know already, so he's meeting them and networking with them.

Building a Listener Base

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Robert Ingalls: And they're talking about cases, breaking things down.

How'd you do this? What happened? What happened with the voir dire? What'd you tell the jury?

The Power of Podcast Referrals

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Robert Ingalls: So, he's meeting these people, he's doing this, but then he's creating this listener base of other attorneys, a lot of younger attorneys that are eager to learn. Especially at the time when he started, there was very little out there like that.

And so, he's creating this listener base that loves him, sends him referrals, brings him co-counsel. He wrote a book recently, and he drove a ton of sales. Because people talked about on the podcast. Oh, I'm going to buy the book for Michael Cowen, of course. And that's another way we're doing it.

Thought Leadership in Law

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Robert Ingalls: And then, we work for large firms, where they're doing a lot of thought leadership stuff.

They're the first person talking about the thing, new legislation around AI. You're going to go to our podcast because we are some of the most accomplished lawyers on the planet working on this right now. And anytime something happens, we're the first to talk about it. And they build their following that way. And they become known as those people who do it. And when these big companies need help, whether it's M&A or whatever, that's who they know, they're driving to them.

And this stuff works. It's really converting for clients across the spectrum.

Taking the Plunge: Personal Insights

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MPS: It's very interesting that you say that. First, I just want to tip my hat to you for being willing to take plunge and take the risk. Obviously, here you are. panned out, right?

Robert Ingalls: Well, Part of that was, really couldn't see my life working for someone else. It's just incompatible with who I am as a human, doing things I don't like doing, you know, day-to-day and doing work like that. And then, having to just take orders from other people like that. I was like, it has to work. If this didn't work, I'd have went somewhere else and done something else, but something had to work so I could be the person driving.

MPS: Welcome to the unemployable club. I get it. you go,

man

Yes, understand. in control of your own destiny and you get to blaze your path forward. So, I'm totally on board with that.

So,

Podcast Marketing Strategies

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MPS: I love the idea of starting with the why. And I think, every law firm that's considering kind of that podcast marketing path, because there's, a lot out now. gaining a lot of traction.

I think, they have to start the, why.

Overcoming Time Investment Challenges

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Robert Ingalls: Sure. I think, they've already started doing it themselves, then I could see that because they had to learn an entirely new thing. Figure out how to do it, where does it go? How do we make it sound good? They bought a mic, it sounded terrible. And they're like, Oh, every time they try something, it doesn't work.

We all know what that feels like. We started on a new hobby, and we didn't like, we can't even figure out why our thing won't say, Oh, we don't have the right glue. You've got to buy this special glue that costs like $48. Everything you do has, if you want to have quality in it, has all these little mistakes you have to make.

And I get that. I made them all, a lot. I mean, You should see, I'm really bad at throwing gear out. You should see, how much gears in that closet that I didn't need, but I bought and tried and didn't work, whatever. The learning curve can be pretty significant. So that time investment can be pretty significant.

The Role of Agencies in Podcasting

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And then you show up, you have a conversation. And that should be, for a lawyer, that should be close to the extent of what they do with this product. They're the voice. They should be able to walk away and it should turn into everything. And that's where I think, a lot of the value lies. is

Maximizing Content Reach

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Robert Ingalls: It's not just a podcast.

Like I remember seeing Julian Edelman's podcast clip. And thinking, I want to listen to that podcast. Because it was funny, it was for me. They're talking about stuff I care about in a manner that I enjoy it. They're using salty language and not being buttoned up at all. And now, I listen to that podcast because I saw those clips. And that's one of the ways that we convert listeners and get attention is using those little clips. Cause somebody will say, Oh, I am struggling with that problem. And now, they want to go find more about it.

Converting Leads Through Content

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MPS: But, Robert, for the law firms listening that don't quite understand how podcast equals money, can you draw that path for them a little bit?

Robert Ingalls: No, Absolutely. You know, Let's go back to the first example we used of lead nurturing. We're spending that money on pay-per-click, SEO, billboards, whatever campaigns we're doing to drive those leads in, those leads need to convert. We need to get them to pick up the phone. And that's one of the reasons we do content marketing in general. We are looking for a vehicle to speak directly to people, let them know who we are. And make them feel good. Get them over that little bit of hump, that friction point to just set the appointment, talk to us.

The videos have been around forever. And I think, they can be really impactful. But let's be honest, how frequently are they really good? Do you see one of those videos with great lighting? And the lawyer sitting behind their 900 books, and they say something that you're just like, Oh shit, that's great.

And I understand why. There's so much pressure. You've got this $20,000 photo shoot and video thing going on. a lot. And lawyers tell me, I don't like being on camera. I get it. Especially like that. Even though, I encourage video like this, I found that when people are doing it like this, we're used to this.

And so, when we create that environment to make it easy, USB mic, right in the side of the computer, put it right in front of you, have a conversation, and you're done. You're not wasting a lot of time. You're making it really easy. And so that way, we're minimizing that time of the attorney. ROI is right there alone. And then, using that as a lead nurturing mechanism. And back to what we said earlier about, where does it go? It becomes that podcast episode. Becomes the, video on YouTube. It becomes those video clips. It goes on to the blog. You put it on your website. So when people are looking for questions on your website, this is the resource. Here's the podcast where we answer your questions. And they engage with that content. They see what you have, they get to know you, they get to like you. They hopefully are starting to trust you a little bit, after listening to a few episodes.

Evergreen Content and ROI

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Robert Ingalls: And now, it's content marketing. But one of the beautiful things about it is you're building a lot of evergreen content, depending on the kind of show. If you are an injury attorney, a family law attorney, a criminal attorney, you are building massive content over years that will continue to serve you, because not a lot tends to be changing.

So, some of that stuff is, the day you record it five years later is still going to be good content.

MPS: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. And I think, even that evergreen aspect alone is a big value add.

Starting Your Own Podcast

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MPS: So, where do they start? Where would you suggest agency aside? Where do you recommend a law firm owner starts, if this is something they'd like to start pursuing?

And then, when the people who listen to the Topeka podcast need an attorney, they're going to call us. And don't want to make light of that idea because I think it's actually an idea that has legs. It is not an idea that is going to give you a ton of ROI upfront. That is a long play. You are building relationships in your community. And you're going to spend a decent amount of money putting that show together. Because you want it to have production value, because it's not answering questions.

That's it would be nice to listen, not I don't have to be nice to. And so now, we're competing with Brene Brown, and Joe Rogan. And that's really hard place to compete, because we're asking for Saturday afternoon, mowing the lawn time. We're asking for on the treadmill at the gym time, driving to work time. That's precious time.

There's every audio book in the world, every podcast in the world is a competitor of ours now. And that's tough. It's really tough to compete in that space. And honestly, if you can compete in that space, why don't you quit your job? Come join me, and do something different because that's tough.

I think that, it's a ripe area. I think, it can be done well. Especially, if you have the right team on it. But it is a long play. I have that conversation with people and not one person yet has started the Topeka podcast that I've worked with. When we've had this conversation of why, what do we want from this?

MPS: This is great. I think This has been really, really helpful for the firms that are looking for that new potential lead generation to us, looking for that authorship or celebrity source. I think, this can really be a strong path forward for them. And I think, you hopefully tackled and cut through a lot of the worries or concerns and identifying the why of that.

Personal Reflections and Gratitude

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MPS: I'm curious, what's got you fired up and excited today? Could be business, could be personal, could be both?

Robert Ingalls: Oh man.

MPS: I mean,

Robert Ingalls: It really is both. But at this point,

MPS: I mean,

Robert Ingalls: we talked earlier just about growing up. I grew up in that rural community. I grew up in a mobile home. My parents had gotten us into a house by the time I was out of high school. Like they really did well for themselves. But I've just, I'm standing on their shoulders.

And the view from up here is better than I ever thought it could be. Like, I get to come to work here.

MPS: Like,

Like I've got a cockpit here. And I have so much gratitude for what I get to do. I get to show up and do something I love. And now, I have two beautiful little girls. And I get to be the dad that I want to be. And without question. like, I don't feel like, Oh, I'm not giving them enough time. I absolutely am. I get to be here for them. I get to go to their things.

Right now, if you told me that I could have all this when I was 20, I would have said, amazing. Like, I can't imagine anything better than that. That's winning.

MPS: First and foremost, again, a tip of my hat to you. That's really amazing. And I'm glad that you get to live the life that you want to live on your terms. And you've built something really special for yourself. And I just also want to thank you for investing your time today, and sharing some of your passion with the audience here and providing them some value.

think, it's been amazing. what's

Closing Remarks and Contact Information

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MPS: the best way for them to get ahold of you if they'd like to reach out?

I'm glad, it comes through, because I genuinely love what I do. It's a really fun thing for me to work on. And it's, pretty incredible that I get to do this thing. And provide value to the world, while building a cool business at the same time.

MPS: Amen to that. And your passion certainly bleeds through. And I, There's no doubt, the audience could hear it and see it depending on where they're listening or watching. And to the audience, thank you guys. Thank you for investing your time, for being here with us today. And look, if you enjoyed this episode, go show Robert some love down in the comments below, and depending on where you're listening or watching. Make sure to hit that subscribe or follow button and turn those bell notifications on. So that way, you continue to see some awesome content, just like this.

Robert Ingalls: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.