Shownotes
In this episode we discuss: The COO's Guide to The Jigsaw Puzzle Company. We are joined by Cameron Herold, he is the founder of the COO Alliance and author of the Second in Command.
We chat about the following:
- How can a COO use the “jigsaw puzzle” metaphor to bring clarity and alignment to a fast-growing company?
- What should a new COO actually do in their first 30, 60, and 90 days to build trust and avoid missteps?
- How do COOs become the “leash, not the choke collar”, supporting visionary CEOs without slowing them down?
- What simple systems can COOs introduce early on that create long-term impact without overwhelming the business?
- How do you determine whether you’re truly operating as a COO… or actually a VP of Ops or GM in disguise?
References:
Biography:
Founder of the COO Alliance & Invest In Your Leaders Course
Author of Vivid Vision & The Second In Command
Meet Cameron Herold, the mastermind behind the exponential growth of hundreds of companies. As the founder of the COO Alliance and the Invest In Your Leaders course, Cameron is a dynamic consultant who has coached some of the biggest names in business, including Sprint Telecom and a monarchy in the Middle East. Known as the "CEO Whisperer", Cameron has a reputation for guiding his clients to double their profits and revenue in just three years or less.
Cameron's entrepreneurial journey began at a young age, and by 35, he had helped build his first two $100 million dollar companies. But his greatest achievement came as the COO of 1-800-GOT-JUNK?, where he engineered the company's spectacular growth from $2 million to $106 million in revenue and from 14 to 3,100 employees - all in just six years.
Cameron is not just a successful business leader, but also a captivating speaker. The current publisher of Forbes magazine, Rich Karlgaard, stated "Cameron Herold is the best speaker I've ever heard...he hits grand slams”.
When he's not on stage, Cameron continues to teach through his Second In Command podcast and his bestselling books, including Vivid Vision, Meetings Suck, Free PR, Double Double, and The Miracle Morning for Entrepreneurs.
Cameron is a top-rated international speaker and has been paid to speak in 26 countries and on all 7 continents, including Antarctica in early 2022. He is also the top-rated lecturer at EO/MIT's Entrepreneurial Masters Program and a powerful and effective speaker at CEO and COO leadership events worldwide.
Summary:
00:03:35 – The COO as a jigsaw puzzle builder
00:11:29 – How to use AI as a COO (and where it goes wrong)
00:11:52 – Advice for the first 90 days
00:14:26 – Why early relationship-building matters
00:15:20 – “Be the leash, not the choke collar”
00:16:20 – How to say “no” without shutting people down
00:28:00 – What’s missing in EOS & how COOs fill the gap
00:32:42 – Pick satellite projects, not messy ones
00:33:16 – Avoid big disruptive changes early
00:36:00 – Are you really a COO… or something else?
00:59:23 – Final takeaway
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
Podcorn - https://podcorn.com/privacy
Transcripts
Hello everyone and welcome to
Speaker:another episode of the Operations
Speaker:Room, a podcast for COOs.
Speaker:I am Brandon Menzinger, joined by
Speaker:my sick co host, Bethany
Speaker:Ayers. How are things going,
Speaker:Bethany?
Speaker:Yeah, I feel like I almost have your
Speaker:voice today, Brandon.
Speaker:Not quite.
Speaker:What is my voice? It's not smooth
Speaker:and silky.
Speaker:No, I think you do have a smooth and
Speaker:silky voice, but it's obviously much
Speaker:deeper than mine, whereas today
Speaker:I'm feeling a bit sorry for
Speaker:myself, didn't sleep well
Speaker:and have whatever this is.
Speaker:It started as a cold.
Speaker:It's a bit more than a cold,
Speaker:but it's not COVID.
Speaker:So I didn't sleep well last night
Speaker:because one of my aunts
Speaker:and I keep trying to figure out how
Speaker:to describe her
Speaker:in terms of like our relationship
Speaker:as she's I don't know what our
Speaker:relationship is, but it's just very
Speaker:close and it's always been very
Speaker:close.
Speaker:And she
Speaker:went in for surgery yesterday
Speaker:that I really didn't know if she
Speaker:was gonna survive.
Speaker:She went in like an
Speaker:hour before bedtime.
Speaker:So I had my phone
Speaker:set that I could get messages
Speaker:if needed, and then just obviously
Speaker:slept very lightly through the night
Speaker:because I didn't know what was
Speaker:gonna happen.
Speaker:Was I gonna get a phone call?
Speaker:But also didn't want to look at my
Speaker:phone because I wanted to sleep and
Speaker:I didn't want to have to deal with
Speaker:any news. So it was just this weird
Speaker:dichotomy.
Speaker:So I I ended up giving up and
Speaker:waking up like five
Speaker:something and then looked
Speaker:and she's out of surgery,
Speaker:she's still alive.
Speaker:Her son was in the room with
Speaker:her, and we had a phone call
Speaker:at six in the morning.
Speaker:There's there were tears,
Speaker:there was laughs, there was a lot
Speaker:of repetition because she's
Speaker:still on anesthesia.
Speaker:So we had the same conversation
Speaker:about four times.
Speaker:Yeah, well, okay, so you've had
Speaker:quite a night then.
Speaker:Yeah, so quite a night.
Speaker:I went to bed sounding like this,
Speaker:but it's not a surprise that I've
Speaker:woken up sounding the same
Speaker:way 'cause it was not a good night.
Speaker:I'm fifty-one.
Speaker:My parents are obviously getting
Speaker:quite old. They're both still alive.
Speaker:My mother, maybe not quite
Speaker:the same thing, but she went into
Speaker:hospital a couple of days ago.
Speaker:And I get this like text, right?
Speaker:This WhatsApp out of nowhere.
Speaker:It's just like one line statement,
Speaker:Brandon, I'm in the hospital, like
Speaker:with a heart issue.
Speaker:I'm like, fuck Jesus.
Speaker:I'm like, oh, thank you for that one
Speaker:liner. So obviously WhatsApp
Speaker:were back, no response.
Speaker:So then I m talk to my sister.
Speaker:My sister is the one to go to for
Speaker:status updates related to my parents
Speaker:for the most part. So she kind of
Speaker:gave me the lowdown as to what was
Speaker:happening. I kind of feel like
Speaker:between young kids, aging
Speaker:parents, I'm not a young kid
Speaker:myself these days, but yeah, I feel
Speaker:like I'm in that sandwich period,
Speaker:as they call it.
Speaker:Yeah, I am either
Speaker:lucky or unlucky
Speaker:that my parents are already gone.
Speaker:So I don't have that direct
Speaker:responsibility.
Speaker:They both died fairly
Speaker:young. But I'm definitely seeing it
Speaker:with my cousins and therefore
Speaker:my aunts and uncles.
Speaker:Most of us were
Speaker:in Albuquerque, so I
Speaker:I'm very close to my aunts and
Speaker:uncles in a old
Speaker:fashioned traditional way.
Speaker:That means that
Speaker:I'm quite grateful that I don't
Speaker:have all of the responsibility
Speaker:of that children
Speaker:have with their parents and I don't
Speaker:have to deal with all of that
Speaker:horrible stuff 'cause I did it
Speaker:young. But I still have like the
Speaker:emotional toll and worry
Speaker:around all of these people in my
Speaker:life who I love who are getting old.
Speaker:So we have got a great topic
Speaker:today, which is the CO's
Speaker:guide to the Jigsaw Puzzle
Speaker:Company. We have an amazing guest
Speaker:for this, which is Cameron Harold.
Speaker:He is the founder of the CO alliance
Speaker:and the host of the second in
Speaker:command podcast and a returning
Speaker:guest from our previous episode.
Speaker:I'm a big fanboy of Cameron because
Speaker:I kind of grew up with him in a
Speaker:way whereby I was listening to his
Speaker:podcast pretty consistently to
Speaker:understand what a CO does.
Speaker:And so the first thing that he
Speaker:had spoken about was this
Speaker:jigsaw metaphor that
Speaker:he uses.
Speaker:And he talked about the four
Speaker:corners of the puzzle being
Speaker:core purpose, core values,
Speaker:the B Hag, and by the way, I hate
Speaker:that term. It's so nineteen
Speaker:nineties. B HAG and
Speaker:the one year plan as the four
Speaker:corners, and the four sides being
Speaker:people systems, strategy systems,
Speaker:meeting rhythms, and financial
Speaker:systems.
Speaker:So that metaphor of
Speaker:the puzzle and the four
Speaker:corners of the four sides.
Speaker:Do you like this metaphor?
Speaker:Yes. I also had a bit of an issue
Speaker:with the BHAG, I have to say,
Speaker:because the way he described it
Speaker:quite often just seemed
Speaker:like the
Speaker:vision to me.
Speaker:But then when we would talk about
Speaker:vision, he would get really like
Speaker:confused or annoyed or because
Speaker:he calls it what a vivid vision,
Speaker:like the whole puzzle
Speaker:then becomes a vivid vision.
Speaker:And so we have vision,
Speaker:BHAG, and vivid vision, and they
Speaker:all mean slightly different things,
Speaker:or core what was it?
Speaker:Core Vision, B Hag, and vivid
Speaker:vision. So I think that terminology
Speaker:just got a little confusing
Speaker:and he very clearly understood
Speaker:what he meant, did not understand
Speaker:what I meant.
Speaker:So I think maybe some improvement
Speaker:on nomenclature would would help.
Speaker:I think it's because he has a
Speaker:framework and the framework has
Speaker:specific terminology.
Speaker:And I think to your point, I think
Speaker:the element of confusion, as I
Speaker:understood it, was that we talk
Speaker:about normally you have
Speaker:your vision, your
Speaker:mission, and your purpose if you
Speaker:want to have three layers.
Speaker:Usually the vision generically
Speaker:in most companies, standard
Speaker:terminology-wise, just means what
Speaker:is the future state going to
Speaker:look like at some level of like
Speaker:understanding and being able to
Speaker:translate that vision to employees
Speaker:and to investors and folks to get
Speaker:people excited by the future that is
Speaker:possible effectively, what that
Speaker:future looks like at some level of
Speaker:description.
Speaker:So I think the misunderstanding
Speaker:or maybe the confusion within his
Speaker:framework is that I think his BHAG
Speaker:and his vivid vision is a bit of
Speaker:a combination that is that
Speaker:vision that we would normally refer
Speaker:to. It's both elements combined, I
Speaker:guess. And I think the distinction
Speaker:that he was trying to make, which
Speaker:sort of makes sense, I guess, was
Speaker:like his so-called BHAG was
Speaker:the North Star kind of
Speaker:like 20 years out, which we
Speaker:never really referred to, I think in
Speaker:our in the way that I think about
Speaker:these vision things.
Speaker:The 20-year-out thing of like the
Speaker:transformation of like putting a
Speaker:computer on everyone's desk from
Speaker:Bill Gates is kind of what he was
Speaker:referring to.
Speaker:And then separately he was referring
Speaker:to this vivid vision being three
Speaker:years out very specifically.
Speaker:What does everything look like?
Speaker:So both with the product, the
Speaker:market, the company, very
Speaker:descriptively, you write a four page
Speaker:document. What is that three year
Speaker:organization look like at that
Speaker:stage?
Speaker:Yeah, I got that.
Speaker:It's just that it's vivid vision
Speaker:versus vision.
Speaker:And so then I would say vision
Speaker:meaning like the normal definition
Speaker:of vision. And he would then be
Speaker:like, No, it's a vivid vision.
Speaker:Like, no, I'm not talking about your
Speaker:vivid vision. I'm just talking about
Speaker:vision.
Speaker:Yeah. And I think any way you slice
Speaker:it, do you have a vision and can
Speaker:you articulate it in helpful, useful
Speaker:ways? And maybe these are some
Speaker:tactical ways that might be
Speaker:useful ways of actually making it
Speaker:come alive.
Speaker:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker:And he's he's looking at all of the
Speaker:key elements of a business.
Speaker:I just had a a thought, because
Speaker:I'm not generally a fan of
Speaker:frameworks, but sometimes they are
Speaker:nice to just speed things up.
Speaker:We are doing our first leadership
Speaker:off site on
Speaker:Tuesday, and I needed
Speaker:to figure out what the agenda was.
Speaker:What are we going to cover?
Speaker:And then also share a pre-read
Speaker:with the team. And so I used ChatGPT
Speaker:to help me with everything.
Speaker:And in the course of a few hours, we
Speaker:had it done.
Speaker:And I ended up
Speaker:using a narrative format for
Speaker:my pre-read for three
Speaker:reasons.
Speaker:One, I don't have any data
Speaker:or diagrams to show yet because
Speaker:we're it's a bit early.
Speaker:Two, I absolutely hate our
Speaker:slide template and can't build
Speaker:anything with it.
Speaker:And the person I'm hoping to
Speaker:use to help me build the slides is
Speaker:on holiday at the moment and I'm
Speaker:waiting for him to return before I
Speaker:have a template.
Speaker:And three,
Speaker:it's really easy for Chat GPT
Speaker:to write a narrative, and it's not
Speaker:really easy for ChatGPT to build
Speaker:slides. So it's made me wonder over
Speaker:the last day,
Speaker:is the Amazon
Speaker:two page narrative going to become
Speaker:the default now that everybody's
Speaker:using AI?
Speaker:Because it's actually easier to
Speaker:write the two page narrative than it
Speaker:is to build the slides.
Speaker:Actually, I think you have a really
Speaker:good point here. You're right.
Speaker:It is so easy now to write
Speaker:written documents of a short
Speaker:nature to get across your message.
Speaker:And to your point, creating slides
Speaker:continues to be as difficult as
Speaker:it's always been and a pain in the
Speaker:ass and requires so much time
Speaker:and effort that I don't know, you
Speaker:like you're fiddling with like
Speaker:what's the one key statement at the
Speaker:top? What are my little boxes?
Speaker:Are they three boxes?
Speaker:Are they two?
Speaker:Always seems to take forever to put
Speaker:these things together.
Speaker:And so I'm now thinking
Speaker:with the vivid vision or the
Speaker:jigsaw puzzle or whatever
Speaker:we want to call it, you
Speaker:could use that as the framework,
Speaker:answer all of those questions,
Speaker:and then get your four
Speaker:page vivid vision done very quickly.
Speaker:So now I'm like, yeah, I love the
Speaker:vivid vision, let's use it.
Speaker:Big fan of the four page vivid
Speaker:vision. I'll tell you one story.
Speaker:We had a VP
Speaker:of product, a product leader,
Speaker:where he went through
Speaker:his product strategy and then
Speaker:went to at the very end of the deck,
Speaker:went to a black slide.
Speaker:At that point, went into his vivid
Speaker:vision of the product of what
Speaker:it's going to look and feel like in
Speaker:three years' time.
Speaker:And it was the most amazing
Speaker:vision I've ever, product vision
Speaker:I've ever heard, where he
Speaker:didn't need any slides whatsoever.
Speaker:He used the black side to really
Speaker:center everyone's attention on him
Speaker:very specifically as the speaker.
Speaker:And then he gave his vision of what
Speaker:that was going to look like.
Speaker:And it was such a powerful,
Speaker:compelling moment.
Speaker:I know it takes a certain amount of
Speaker:confidence and gravitas and
Speaker:storytelling capability to pull that
Speaker:off, but if it's possible, it
Speaker:it is amazing.
Speaker:Way more powerful.
Speaker:So anyhow, I've come full circle
Speaker:well, particularly in like the world
Speaker:of AI, because if
Speaker:you give it frameworks to
Speaker:use and the questions
Speaker:to answer, it could
Speaker:pretty quickly get something
Speaker:compelling. Oh, and as another just
Speaker:because I've now changed the subject
Speaker:entirely, we're talking about AI
Speaker:rather than Cameron Harold,
Speaker:is when I do this
Speaker:work now, I use WISPAFLO
Speaker:and talk.
Speaker:And the reason why I don't just use
Speaker:Chat GPT's inbuilt
Speaker:dictation is because it's really
Speaker:glitchy and I'll find I
Speaker:talk to it and then half
Speaker:the time everything I've said has
Speaker:disappeared.
Speaker:Whereas WISPA flow is much
Speaker:better at not
Speaker:losing your content.
Speaker:Like it'll still glitch but it able
Speaker:to it's able to retrieve it.
Speaker:And so by using that I've never
Speaker:lost my words since.
Speaker:So just as a tip for everybody,
Speaker:WISPA flow talking directly
Speaker:to Chat GPT, you
Speaker:can really use it as a
Speaker:thinking partner or thought partner
Speaker:and get some good content.
Speaker:But I I I am definitely
Speaker:using it like
Speaker:it's a person that's fallible.
Speaker:And so just and I used to
Speaker:have it come out with stuff and be
Speaker:like, Oh, I'll just fix it myself,
Speaker:whereas now I don't.
Speaker:And I'm like, No, that's
Speaker:the wrong bullet point.
Speaker:I said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
Speaker:and you wrote this, change it to
Speaker:that, and then it does.
Speaker:Or you've lost all the subtlety of
Speaker:my argument.
Speaker:You've forgotten these areas, do
Speaker:it again. It's basically just
Speaker:delegating to somebody who
Speaker:doesn't have feelings.
Speaker:So you don't have to couch things.
Speaker:You'd be like, That's a really good
Speaker:beginning, but really this area
Speaker:here, you could do better.
Speaker:So Cameron went on
Speaker:to talk about his advice for
Speaker:new COs in the first ninety days
Speaker:of their role.
Speaker:And he said, In the first
Speaker:thirty days, I'm like Sherlock
Speaker:Holmes, just trying to understand it
Speaker:all, and that pacing
Speaker:and not rushing to fix things and
Speaker:taking your time to observe, to
Speaker:validate, and to pull together some
Speaker:low friction wins as he described
Speaker:it. What do you make of Cameron's
Speaker:sage advice in this respect?
Speaker:I think it's great if you have the
Speaker:luxury, because he's going for
Speaker:the whole ninety days.
Speaker:And I think it depends
Speaker:on the size of the organization, the
Speaker:complexity and the position that
Speaker:it's in. I think the format,
Speaker:which is the fairly standard 30, 60,
Speaker:90 format of learn
Speaker:things, make a plan,
Speaker:execute the plan, is
Speaker:standard in what we all do.
Speaker:It's just whether or not you have
Speaker:the luxury to wait a whole 90 days,
Speaker:or if it becomes compacted.
Speaker:So actually you're observing for two
Speaker:weeks instead of four.
Speaker:Are you having to make plans on the
Speaker:fly? The one thing that I thought
Speaker:was interesting and
Speaker:do think time matters
Speaker:is his point
Speaker:around not making
Speaker:personnel changes before ninety
Speaker:days. So before the team has
Speaker:an opportunity to understand
Speaker:you, get you, buy into you,
Speaker:and therefore back
Speaker:what might be unpopular
Speaker:personnel changes.
Speaker:I think you're exactly right.
Speaker:I think when it comes to people and
Speaker:the emotions around the individual,
Speaker:then there's consequences to these
Speaker:things. So you need to make sure
Speaker:that whatever making the right calls
Speaker:for the company, given the gravity
Speaker:of what you're doing.
Speaker:It's interesting. The 3069
Speaker:is so sequential.
Speaker:And I think the reality in scale-ups
Speaker:is that it's never sequential like
Speaker:that. And I think rightfully so,
Speaker:because oftentimes you join a
Speaker:company and if you if you're
Speaker:experienced, you do a bit of pattern
Speaker:matching and you'll red flag almost
Speaker:immediately on things that don't
Speaker:make any sense.
Speaker:And then very quickly you'll
Speaker:validate why are they doing it?
Speaker:How did that come to be?
Speaker:Do they believe it makes sense?
Speaker:Why is that the case?
Speaker:And very quickly you can take those
Speaker:red flags, validate it, and
Speaker:make the change happen sooner than
Speaker:later. You don't have to wait for
Speaker:60, 90 days to make some of those
Speaker:changes, I think.
Speaker:So I think this kind of
Speaker:not sequential going through
Speaker:the process, but just not doing it
Speaker:sequentially, which is like flag
Speaker:what you flag, take your time on
Speaker:what you need to understand better.
Speaker:And then in particular on the people
Speaker:front, push back any decisions
Speaker:around individuals until you really
Speaker:have a a good grasp on what
Speaker:is happening for the organization as
Speaker:a whole.
Speaker:I like that about it not being
Speaker:sequential or sequential but in
Speaker:different time bounds.
Speaker:I think that's quite insightful.
Speaker:The only part I'd add to
Speaker:the making team changes
Speaker:is is not just to make sure you're
Speaker:not making the wrong mistake, but to
Speaker:have the team trust the
Speaker:decision that you make and the team
Speaker:stays with you rather than
Speaker:revolts.
Speaker:And you have to build that much more
Speaker:of a relationship because you got
Speaker:rid of Joe and everybody loved Joe.
Speaker:I think really doing
Speaker:that conversation, the one-to-ones
Speaker:across the company, depending on the
Speaker:size of the company, to get to know
Speaker:people, help them understand who you
Speaker:are, where you're coming from a
Speaker:little bit in that first nine days
Speaker:is critical to en masse
Speaker:get them to be in a position of like
Speaker:some level of trust related to
Speaker:yourself. Because obviously as you
Speaker:hit into that ninety day time frame
Speaker:and you start thinking about moving
Speaker:people around, you have to have some
Speaker:inbuilt level of respect,
Speaker:trust, credibility to make
Speaker:them feel like things are
Speaker:not being randomly done.
Speaker:Or are they just bringing in your
Speaker:favorites? So Cameron had
Speaker:talked about the COO must
Speaker:be the leash, not the choke collar
Speaker:on the CEO.
Speaker:What do you make of that?
Speaker:It's such an emotive image, isn't
Speaker:it?
Speaker:I know, I know.
Speaker:This is Cameron, he's all about the
Speaker:the vivid metaphors.
Speaker:The vivid vision.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, I think it makes sense.
Speaker:And also it's definitely part
Speaker:of the episode worth listening to,
Speaker:rather than us summarizing it
Speaker:now. But basically like
Speaker:how to
Speaker:say no,
Speaker:but sound like you're saying yes,
Speaker:in effect.
Speaker:Put on your curiosity hat
Speaker:would be the hint.
Speaker:But definitely make sure to listen
Speaker:out to that part of it and the
Speaker:script that he shares
Speaker:on how to be a leash and not a choke
Speaker:caller. It's almost like I don't
Speaker:want to talk about it too much
Speaker:because I want everybody to listen
Speaker:to what he had to say.
Speaker:Yes, I think this is absolutely
Speaker:critical, and it's critical in any
Speaker:role. I actually experienced
Speaker:this myself last week.
Speaker:I was listening to two people talk
Speaker:that I know quite well.
Speaker:One is a contractor, one is a
Speaker:full-time employee.
Speaker:The contractor was saying that
Speaker:the other person was wrong.
Speaker:He was saying, No, that's wrong.
Speaker:That doesn't make any sense.
Speaker:Here's the reason why.
Speaker:And the other person that was a
Speaker:full-time employee, the reaction
Speaker:from her was she was very off
Speaker:put by the entire response
Speaker:from the contractor.
Speaker:And I could see in her face she was
Speaker:bristling and pulling
Speaker:back and perhaps not wanting to
Speaker:really hear why it was not
Speaker:a good idea in that situation.
Speaker:So clearly that's a good example
Speaker:of not saying no like that,
Speaker:because what you're trying to do is
Speaker:ensure that whatever point that
Speaker:you're trying to make, you're
Speaker:bringing the other person on side.
Speaker:And the question is, how do you do
Speaker:that in a useful way to ensure
Speaker:that that's not the reaction that
Speaker:you get? Because if that is the
Speaker:reaction, nothing's gonna happen,
Speaker:especially as a contractor.
Speaker:Yeah, you're just gonna burn a
Speaker:relationship and not be asked
Speaker:back next week.
Speaker:So why don't we park it here and
Speaker:get onto our conversation with
Speaker:Cameron Harold?
Speaker:I've always viewed a business like a
Speaker:jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker:I remember when we were little kids
Speaker:and our mom would hand us the
Speaker:2500-piece jigsaw
Speaker:puzzle. We needed to look at the
Speaker:picture on the front of the box to
Speaker:know what we were building.
Speaker:So for me, that picture on the front
Speaker:of the box is something called the
Speaker:vivid vision.
Speaker:We can talk about that.
Speaker:It's that four or five-page
Speaker:description of what your company
Speaker:looks like, acts like, and feels
Speaker:like three years in the future.
Speaker:So that's the starting point of what
Speaker:every company needs to align
Speaker:the employees, align the suppliers,
Speaker:align the customers.
Speaker:And so everyone knows what they're
Speaker:building, right? If we handed you a
Speaker:jigsaw puzzle with 5,000
Speaker:red pieces, they were all red, you'd
Speaker:be like, well, that's just not
Speaker:helpful, right?
Speaker:So the picture is the starting
Speaker:point. And then we always looked for
Speaker:the corners.
Speaker:We'd always find the four corners of
Speaker:the jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker:We put them on the table, and then
Speaker:we'd look for the side pieces.
Speaker:For me, the four corners are your
Speaker:core purpose, your core
Speaker:values, your BHAG,
Speaker:which is that Jim Collins term, and
Speaker:I want to talk about that because
Speaker:almost everyone does it wrong.
Speaker:And then your one-year plan
Speaker:that you work towards that
Speaker:three-year vivid vision.
Speaker:Those are the four corners of every
Speaker:company's jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker:The four sides of the puzzle
Speaker:are the employee systems,
Speaker:and that's the recruiting,
Speaker:interviewing, hiring, onboarding,
Speaker:and leadership development of
Speaker:people. And then it's the strategy
Speaker:systems.
Speaker:That's time to actually be
Speaker:strategic, to think out on the
Speaker:calendar.
Speaker:To have time to look at your SWATs,
Speaker:to put operating systems in place to
Speaker:actually give people the tools, to
Speaker:bring AI into the organization.
Speaker:That's all strategic.
Speaker:And then you have your meeting
Speaker:rhythms. The meeting rhythms are
Speaker:your annuals, your quarterlies, your
Speaker:financial reviews, your L10s,
Speaker:your weekly meetings, your daily
Speaker:huddles, your one-on-one coaching
Speaker:systems, and there's systems related
Speaker:to meetings.
Speaker:The fourth side is your financial
Speaker:systems. And those are things like
Speaker:your cash flows and budgets and
Speaker:understanding the different levers
Speaker:to be pulling.
Speaker:And then the middle parts of the
Speaker:puzzle are all the big shiny objects
Speaker:like the yellow umbrella and the red
Speaker:beach chair.
Speaker:Well, those are the culture systems
Speaker:that kind of emerge when you have
Speaker:the corners and the sides of the
Speaker:puzzle in place.
Speaker:And I think for many entrepreneurial
Speaker:companies, the entrepreneur gets
Speaker:distracted with that big shiny
Speaker:object. Oh, this looks cool.
Speaker:Let's do that.
Speaker:Well, yes, but let's get the corners
Speaker:and the sides in place first.
Speaker:It's like building a home.
Speaker:You have to build the foundation to
Speaker:be strong.
Speaker:But if they're just excited about
Speaker:putting in the new new appliances
Speaker:and the fancy cabinetry,
Speaker:but we haven't got the foundation
Speaker:or the walls built, you you're
Speaker:kind of doing it all backwards.
Speaker:So I've just visualized building
Speaker:a company in the way of building a
Speaker:Jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker:So what I really like about
Speaker:the corners is that you
Speaker:only have purpose,
Speaker:I think you called it.
Speaker:Which I like because I'm always so
Speaker:confused about what's a vision,
Speaker:what's a mission, what's a purpose.
Speaker:And I feel like we get into these
Speaker:semantic debates around it.
Speaker:And I like that you just have one
Speaker:and we don't have to worry about the
Speaker:others.
Speaker:So a core purpose is the
Speaker:reason that your company
Speaker:exists, right?
Speaker:My core purpose for everything I've
Speaker:done for the last 18 years
Speaker:has been to help entrepreneurs make
Speaker:their vivid vision come true.
Speaker:Everything I do drives helping
Speaker:entrepreneurs make their vivid
Speaker:vision come true, right?
Speaker:Helping them build their business.
Speaker:So my speaking, my coaching,
Speaker:my CO alliance, my invest in your
Speaker:leaders course, my six books,
Speaker:my podcast, they're all aligned.
Speaker:Being on your show is aligned with
Speaker:helping entrepreneurial companies
Speaker:build their vivid vision.
Speaker:I don't work with corporate, I
Speaker:don't work with government agencies,
Speaker:I really don't do stuff with
Speaker:nonprofits.
Speaker:It's all that entrepreneurial world
Speaker:of making their vivid vision come
Speaker:true. So it allows me to say no
Speaker:to things and be very focused on
Speaker:what I do. And I think that's where
Speaker:many companies get distracted.
Speaker:It's like, what was McDonald's
Speaker:doing trying to sell pizzas
Speaker:20 years ago?
Speaker:Like what were they thinking?
Speaker:And then the second corner is your
Speaker:core values.
Speaker:And I've seen so many companies
Speaker:do core values wrong.
Speaker:They'll either have single words
Speaker:like integrity or
Speaker:passion, but then they have to have
Speaker:a whole bunch of explanation bullet
Speaker:points down below.
Speaker:What I prefer to do is have a
Speaker:maximum of four or five core
Speaker:values. Have each of the core
Speaker:values is a very easy
Speaker:to understand phrase.
Speaker:Like deliver what you promise,
Speaker:respect the individual, pride
Speaker:in all you do, and find a
Speaker:better way are four very, very
Speaker:strong.
Speaker:Core values for a company.
Speaker:Maybe the fifth is have some eff and
Speaker:fun. But they don't need any
Speaker:explanation, right?
Speaker:It's understandable.
Speaker:We get it.
Speaker:And if the company hires
Speaker:people who already live the core
Speaker:values, and fires
Speaker:people if they break the core
Speaker:values, they become an underpinning.
Speaker:They become foundational in the
Speaker:company. But if you merely put them
Speaker:on the wall and you don't talk about
Speaker:them, you don't celebrate them, you
Speaker:don't hire against them, that's when
Speaker:you're going to have trouble.
Speaker:I remember they asked Herb Kelleher,
Speaker:the founder of Southwest Airlines,
Speaker:how do you get all your employees to
Speaker:be so happy?
Speaker:He said, We hire happy people.
Speaker:How do you get your all of your
Speaker:companies to deliver what we
Speaker:promise? We hire people who deliver
Speaker:what we promise, right?
Speaker:How do you get all your employees to
Speaker:be so respectful of it?
Speaker:We hire people who respect people.
Speaker:What your core values are, and you
Speaker:hire for them, you deliver
Speaker:against them, you celebrate them,
Speaker:you thank people about them, you
Speaker:talk about them all the time, and
Speaker:you fire people if you break them,
Speaker:it's easy, right?
Speaker:That's a second corner of your
Speaker:jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker:And then the third is that Bhag,
Speaker:that big hairy audacious goal.
Speaker:Now, most companies do it wrong.
Speaker:They say, Oh, they want to change a
Speaker:million lives or educate a billion
Speaker:whatever's.
Speaker:That's just a massive goal.
Speaker:By Jim Collins' definition, and
Speaker:Jim Collins, who wrote Good the
Speaker:Great is the one who coined the term
Speaker:B Hag, the big hairy audacious goal,
Speaker:it has to be a 20 or 30
Speaker:year stretch that from outside
Speaker:the company seems impossible
Speaker:and from inside seems
Speaker:plausible.
Speaker:And it's not measurable.
Speaker:So at 1800 got junk, our
Speaker:BHAG was to build a globally
Speaker:admired brand.
Speaker:That meant building a great call
Speaker:center, having a great franchise
Speaker:program, great marketing, great PR,
Speaker:great branding.
Speaker:Everything we did had to become
Speaker:measured against other globally
Speaker:admired brand.
Speaker:Internally, we called ourselves the
Speaker:Starbucks of Junk Removal or
Speaker:the FedEx of Junk Removal.
Speaker:That's who we benchmarked against.
Speaker:Boeing's was to democratize air
Speaker:travel. Nike was to crush Adidas,
Speaker:right? In 1972, that was a
Speaker:crazy B HAG.
Speaker:Microsoft was to put a computer on
Speaker:every desktop, and then they later
Speaker:said, and in every household.
Speaker:But Microsoft didn't even make
Speaker:computers.
Speaker:But their BHAG of putting a computer
Speaker:on every desktop was because
Speaker:the software that we would all want
Speaker:to use would be so powerful
Speaker:that we would need those.
Speaker:And they sold the operating system,
Speaker:DOS and Windows
Speaker:that was on all of these computers.
Speaker:So that's the purpose of the B Hag,
Speaker:is that big aligning force.
Speaker:My BHAG is for companies
Speaker:to replace vision statements
Speaker:with vivid visions worldwide.
Speaker:Because the one sentence vision
Speaker:statement or mission statement
Speaker:doesn't work.
Speaker:Right? You just mash a bunch of
Speaker:words up into a fancy sentence.
Speaker:It doesn't do anything.
Speaker:And that's where most people have
Speaker:the problem with the vision
Speaker:statement or mission statement,
Speaker:which is why I've completely
Speaker:replaced it with a four or five
Speaker:page document that describes
Speaker:the entire company.
Speaker:But then the vision is very similar
Speaker:to the beehag.
Speaker:So I don't use a one-sentence vision
Speaker:statement. Most companies, when they
Speaker:have a vision statement or a mission
Speaker:statement, they got a bunch of their
Speaker:executives together.
Speaker:They all pick their most important
Speaker:words, their most inspiring
Speaker:words, and they put all the words
Speaker:together into one sentence, right?
Speaker:To align the world's organization
Speaker:with these kinds of people doing
Speaker:this kinds of things, doing that
Speaker:kind of like it's just so watered
Speaker:down that it's weird.
Speaker:Again, Google's Bhag
Speaker:is to democratize the world's
Speaker:information.
Speaker:That could be a mission statement,
Speaker:but most companies stretch it out
Speaker:into something that's just this
Speaker:gobbledygook of crap.
Speaker:You have your vision as you
Speaker:described it, and you're trying to
Speaker:describe how five years
Speaker:out or some time period out, what
Speaker:is the the company that you're
Speaker:trying to achieve? What does that
Speaker:look like? What does that feel like?
Speaker:That type of thing.
Speaker:And usually that vision, for the
Speaker:most part of scale ups, we tend to
Speaker:intertwine, I think, the B HAG
Speaker:with the vision itself as part of
Speaker:the same package because we're
Speaker:trying to disrupt the world in some
Speaker:phenomenal way.
Speaker:So again, the vivid vision is a
Speaker:three-year-out vision.
Speaker:It's not five, it's not 10.
Speaker:When you go out five or 10 years, it
Speaker:becomes so far out there that
Speaker:no one really takes it seriously
Speaker:enough yet.
Speaker:The B hag of the 20 or 30
Speaker:year is an inspirational, like
Speaker:democratizing or colonizing
Speaker:Mars is a B hag.
Speaker:But the vivid vision for what SpaceX
Speaker:looks like in three years is when
Speaker:you describe the leadership team,
Speaker:the use of metrics, what
Speaker:the company operates like, what the
Speaker:culture is like.
Speaker:You describe operations and IT
Speaker:and marketing and finance.
Speaker:It's kind of a paragraph about each
Speaker:functional area and all
Speaker:the operating parts of the business.
Speaker:In the EOS world, what they've done
Speaker:is they put to play something in
Speaker:place called the Vision Traction
Speaker:Organizer, which is basically 10
Speaker:goals. And it's these 10 big
Speaker:goals that align people,
Speaker:which is great.
Speaker:But those 10 goals don't
Speaker:necessarily describe how
Speaker:we work together as a team.
Speaker:They don't necessarily describe the
Speaker:energy that you feel when you walk
Speaker:into an office.
Speaker:And it's important because the
Speaker:entrepreneur often feels that in
Speaker:their mind, right?
Speaker:The entrepreneur, the CEO
Speaker:often has a full vision
Speaker:of what they want all this to look
Speaker:like, but no one can read their
Speaker:mind. When they write that down
Speaker:and describing the company, let's
Speaker:say December 31st, 2028.
Speaker:So three years out, everyone
Speaker:can see it and feel it.
Speaker:And it's close enough that they can
Speaker:start working towards it.
Speaker:But the foundational things that
Speaker:they're gonna put in place are the
Speaker:year one projects, and then they'll
Speaker:do the year two projects, then
Speaker:they'll do the year three projects.
Speaker:Right. Some sentences of the vivid
Speaker:vision they'll start on now, but if
Speaker:you lean out five, ten years,
Speaker:there's not enough tension to
Speaker:really worry about that.
Speaker:It's just so far out there, we can
Speaker:kind of keep pushing that down the
Speaker:road for a few years.
Speaker:The reason I only do the one year
Speaker:plan is if you start putting plans
Speaker:in place that are really firm for
Speaker:three years out and two years out,
Speaker:the world has completely changed
Speaker:twelve months from now.
Speaker:The more so now because of what's
Speaker:happening with technology and AI.
Speaker:Don't know how happy you're gonna be
Speaker:with this question, but I guess it's
Speaker:like, are you looking at
Speaker:using the vivid vision
Speaker:as a alternative
Speaker:system to EOS?
Speaker:So like if people just aren't
Speaker:getting on with EOS, they go
Speaker:to vivid vision or are they
Speaker:complimentary or how are you viewing
Speaker:them?
Speaker:Yeah, very complimentary.
Speaker:In fact, I've talked to the team at
Speaker:EOS about this.
Speaker:I talked to Mark Winters about it.
Speaker:I've spoken to Geno Wickman, who
Speaker:wrote the book Traction.
Speaker:I'm actually interviewing their
Speaker:their new COO on our second
Speaker:command podcast.
Speaker:I've interviewed the team at 90.io,
Speaker:which is the operating system that a
Speaker:lot of the EOS people use.
Speaker:So the vivid vision is
Speaker:what's missing for EOS.
Speaker:Right. E EOS is is a great
Speaker:operating system for
Speaker:the systems that you need to scale.
Speaker:My invest in your leaders course is
Speaker:something else that's missing at
Speaker:EOS. It's the leadership skills
Speaker:that everyone on the management team
Speaker:needs to operate a business
Speaker:and the people, right?
Speaker:There's nothing in EOS about
Speaker:situational leadership or coaching
Speaker:or delegation or managing projects
Speaker:or running interviews, or they
Speaker:talk about the L10 meeting, which is
Speaker:great, but what about the annual
Speaker:meetings, the quarterly meetings,
Speaker:the daily huddles, the one-on-one
Speaker:coaching meetings, the financial
Speaker:reviews, the business area reviews
Speaker:are all meetings that are needed
Speaker:when your company is a mid-sized
Speaker:company. Right. When you get 50 to
Speaker:100 employees, you need more than
Speaker:an L10, right?
Speaker:If you're coaching people on a
Speaker:weekly basis, you need more than an
Speaker:L10.
Speaker:So the vivid vision is like an
Speaker:aligning point.
Speaker:And I would say about 40% of
Speaker:our COO alliance members
Speaker:use EOS.
Speaker:And we even have a dedicated channel
Speaker:inside of Circle, inside of our
Speaker:CO alliance community, which is like
Speaker:Slack, where we have a dedicated
Speaker:channel for all of the EOS users
Speaker:of the CO alliance.
Speaker:So yeah, I'm a huge fan of EOS.
Speaker:One of the things I like about EOS
Speaker:is the simplicity around
Speaker:people. It's kind of a ready
Speaker:made scorecard.
Speaker:You might get a better scorecard,
Speaker:but this is a really basic one and I
Speaker:like that to begin with.
Speaker:I do too.
Speaker:Remember, the people systems start
Speaker:with the recruiting.
Speaker:So EOS doesn't talk about
Speaker:recruiting.
Speaker:It doesn't talk about running the
Speaker:interviews. It doesn't talk about
Speaker:reference checks.
Speaker:It doesn't talk about the onboarding
Speaker:of people. But once you have the
Speaker:people, then that people systems,
Speaker:right, around what they're doing and
Speaker:what the responsibilities are is
Speaker:absolutely critical because it helps
Speaker:with communication.
Speaker:It helps with understanding what
Speaker:things people are supposed to be
Speaker:working on and what they're
Speaker:responsible for.
Speaker:I'm noticing a trend right now
Speaker:with companies that are looking to
Speaker:bring AI in.
Speaker:They get all their employees to
Speaker:write down everything they work on
Speaker:and they realize that half their
Speaker:employees aren't doing more than 10
Speaker:hours or 15 hours of work during a
Speaker:week. They're just trying to
Speaker:automate some work and they're not
Speaker:even doing 40 hours work.
Speaker:Like so now we're able to replace
Speaker:people when we realize they don't
Speaker:have much so so EOS is really
Speaker:powerful in that sense.
Speaker:And then it's the leading of people
Speaker:where how do you coach people?
Speaker:How do you align people?
Speaker:How do you handle conflict with
Speaker:people? How do you remove them when
Speaker:they're in the wrong seat or put
Speaker:them in the right seat, right?
Speaker:Those are all pieces that you have
Speaker:to layer into the operating
Speaker:system of EOS.
Speaker:So maybe just to switch gears.
Speaker:So obviously Bethany's joining a new
Speaker:organization as a CEO and
Speaker:I've been at my company now, my new
Speaker:company that I'm working for for
Speaker:about six months.
Speaker:What is the best way to tackle that
Speaker:first six month thinking in terms of
Speaker:what you should focus on, what
Speaker:matters?
Speaker:Yeah, so I call it the first 90 days
Speaker:or the first hundred days of
Speaker:entering into an organization.
Speaker:In the first month, the role
Speaker:of the CEO or COO
Speaker:coming into a company that already
Speaker:exists is to really get to
Speaker:understand the culture, the
Speaker:people, the current strategy,
Speaker:the past, the SWOT
Speaker:analysis, the competitive landscape.
Speaker:It's going for lunch with every
Speaker:leader, either in person or over
Speaker:video. It's sitting in on every
Speaker:business meeting and just sitting in
Speaker:the corner and listening.
Speaker:And in the first 30 days, it's
Speaker:asking questions.
Speaker:And I like taking a notebook and
Speaker:scribbling down all my ideas.
Speaker:And for 30 days, I'm
Speaker:like Sherlock Holmes, or I'm
Speaker:like a detective, just trying to
Speaker:understand it all.
Speaker:I want to understand everybody.
Speaker:I want to know who do people
Speaker:think we should fire?
Speaker:Who do people think we should
Speaker:promote? Who are the A players?
Speaker:I want to get to know all the
Speaker:idiosyncrasies.
Speaker:I want to know what got us to here
Speaker:and where were we stumbling?
Speaker:And I really want to know the
Speaker:customers and the strategy and
Speaker:the marketplace.
Speaker:And I don't want to put any ideas
Speaker:in place in that first month.
Speaker:In the second month, I'm going to
Speaker:go back through my list of ideas
Speaker:because I might have a list of, oh,
Speaker:we should fire Bob and we should
Speaker:promote Betty.
Speaker:In month two, I'm going to go back
Speaker:and stress test all my ideas.
Speaker:I'm going to go back and really
Speaker:question all of the things that I'm
Speaker:thinking about to see which ones
Speaker:we should start running with.
Speaker:And then by month three, I'm going
Speaker:to start putting in place the
Speaker:projects and initiatives that are
Speaker:very easy to put in place.
Speaker:And then have a low what I call PETA
Speaker:factor, a low pain in the ass
Speaker:factor. They don't require a lot of
Speaker:people, time or money, right?
Speaker:I want to put projects in place
Speaker:that don't require a lot of people
Speaker:time or money that will give us
Speaker:a good ROI so
Speaker:that the team will go, oh, that
Speaker:was easy, right?
Speaker:Look at this idea that Bethany had.
Speaker:That was easy and look at the result
Speaker:that we got.
Speaker:I'll also look for projects that
Speaker:will be like launching a satellite.
Speaker:They might take a little bit of
Speaker:effort, but once they're done, they
Speaker:pay dividends for a long period of
Speaker:time, right?
Speaker:Maybe it's going out to our 500
Speaker:customers from the last three years
Speaker:and getting a hundred of them to
Speaker:leave a Google review to take
Speaker:us from five Google reviews to a
Speaker:hundred Google reviews in a month.
Speaker:All of a sudden we go, whoa, we've
Speaker:we're now substantially changing.
Speaker:And that pays dividends for the next
Speaker:12 months.
Speaker:I try to avoid any of the projects
Speaker:that are complicated, like
Speaker:putting a new CRM in place
Speaker:or changing systems in a
Speaker:very big way, or coming in with
Speaker:an entire EOS system.
Speaker:I might come in with one component
Speaker:of it. Maybe it's just the L10
Speaker:meeting, or maybe it's the vision
Speaker:traction organizer.
Speaker:So I would look to put
Speaker:very simple systems in place first.
Speaker:After your first quarter is
Speaker:when you can start making some of
Speaker:the people decisions, like firing
Speaker:people or bringing in people from
Speaker:the outside.
Speaker:The reason for that is by that point
Speaker:your team has started to know you,
Speaker:like you, and trust you, and then
Speaker:they're ready for some of those
Speaker:bigger decisions that require
Speaker:a little bit of the
Speaker:I don't want to say politics, but a
Speaker:little bit more finesse.
Speaker:The kind of trust that you've made a
Speaker:good decision and getting rid of Bob
Speaker:wasn't every no where
Speaker:everybody's wondering who's next
Speaker:and Bob was such a nice guy.
Speaker:And they don't even know you yet,
Speaker:right? So then they're like if they
Speaker:don't even know you or like you or
Speaker:trust you, and all of a sudden Bob's
Speaker:gone and you're putting a CRM in
Speaker:place, then they could all be the
Speaker:right decisions.
Speaker:It's so much change early
Speaker:that you and I I did it wrong.
Speaker:I I came into Winding Country Got
Speaker:Junk. I'd already built two
Speaker:franchise companies before.
Speaker:I knew exactly what needed to get
Speaker:done. Brian had no idea how to build
Speaker:a franchise company.
Speaker:He'd sold his 12th franchise and
Speaker:had no operating manual, no
Speaker:franchise training system, no
Speaker:franchise marketing system.
Speaker:There was nothing other than the
Speaker:vision. So I came in guns
Speaker:ablazing with all of the right
Speaker:things to do, but people were like,
Speaker:who the fuck is this guy?
Speaker:I'd been running a 900-person
Speaker:marketing company or an internet
Speaker:agency coming into a 12-person
Speaker:company. It was too much too
Speaker:soon. We had to bring a marriage
Speaker:counselor in to teach me
Speaker:about my own leadership blind spots
Speaker:in the second month that I was
Speaker:there. The one that I introduced to
Speaker:companies now specializes in the
Speaker:CEO COO relationship.
Speaker:And she also does marriage
Speaker:counseling for kind of the Wall
Speaker:Street power executives and their
Speaker:spouses. So she, her name is Dr.
Speaker:Patty Ann Tublin, and she's
Speaker:fantastic at working with the CEO,
Speaker:COO, because they're very much
Speaker:like men are from Mars, women are
Speaker:from Venus, right?
Speaker:CEOs speak CEO
Speaker:and COOs speak COO.
Speaker:CEOs want the bottom line, they just
Speaker:want the facts, they need
Speaker:information quickly.
Speaker:They need you to take their idea and
Speaker:run with it.
Speaker:The COO wants all the data,
Speaker:they want the systems, they want to
Speaker:understand the whole process, they
Speaker:want to know how everything fits.
Speaker:They usually want to give too much
Speaker:information to the other.
Speaker:So teaching them how to work
Speaker:together is a very powerful
Speaker:kind of instinct.
Speaker:That would be fascinating.
Speaker:Pretty much every time I talk to a
Speaker:COO, the conversation will
Speaker:end up with my CEO
Speaker:is driving me crazy,
Speaker:pushing too hard, doesn't
Speaker:understand and I'm sure it's
Speaker:the other way too.
Speaker:At the end of the day, the COO
Speaker:has to be the brakes to the
Speaker:entrepreneur's gas, but not
Speaker:the parking brake.
Speaker:Or we have to be the leash to the
Speaker:entrepreneurial dragon, but not
Speaker:choke them.
Speaker:Right with the leash.
Speaker:So when you join our organization
Speaker:and the CO walks up to you in week
Speaker:one and says, Hey, here are your
Speaker:eight things I want you to focus on.
Speaker:What do you do with that?
Speaker:What would be your reaction to that?
Speaker:I think it's first sitting down and
Speaker:really understanding what are the
Speaker:roles and responsibilities of the
Speaker:CEO for the next year.
Speaker:What are the roles and
Speaker:responsibilities of the COO for the
Speaker:next year?
Speaker:What's the reporting structure of
Speaker:the current people on the team?
Speaker:And then really understanding are
Speaker:you a COO or are you
Speaker:a VP of operations?
Speaker:Are you a general manager?
Speaker:Are you director of operations?
Speaker:At what level are you really coming
Speaker:into the company?
Speaker:A true COO is
Speaker:you're usually coming in with a lot
Speaker:of strategic insight, PL
Speaker:responsibility and autonomy.
Speaker:When you're coming in at more of a
Speaker:VP level, you're tending to get some
Speaker:stuff handed to you and you have
Speaker:some strategic insight.
Speaker:So it's really getting a meeting of
Speaker:the minds there. So I would be
Speaker:asking questions.
Speaker:I love this list.
Speaker:I would start by saying, by the way,
Speaker:I love this list, right?
Speaker:Love your list, love the eight
Speaker:or 10. This is fantastic.
Speaker:Can we go for a lunch today or
Speaker:this week so I can ask you about
Speaker:each of them just to understand them
Speaker:even more? Because you've been
Speaker:thinking about them for three to six
Speaker:months. I need to play a little bit
Speaker:of catch up.
Speaker:I've got some basic questions that
Speaker:we can just either or go for a walk
Speaker:and I can just take some notes so
Speaker:I understand them even more.
Speaker:But by telling them you love their
Speaker:ideas and you want to understand
Speaker:them even more, it creates a safe
Speaker:space for you to then go through
Speaker:the who, what, when, where, why, and
Speaker:how of each of their projects, the
Speaker:understanding the inputs of how much
Speaker:money and time they're willing to
Speaker:spend and what ROI they're looking
Speaker:for on those.
Speaker:After you've gone through that,
Speaker:then you can say,
Speaker:Totally love this list again.
Speaker:I've got three or four ideas
Speaker:as well that might dovetail
Speaker:in well with these.
Speaker:Can I walk you through what those
Speaker:are and how I see them all fitting?
Speaker:So then you're opening the door
Speaker:up because they already know it's
Speaker:safe and you love their stuff and
Speaker:you understand it, that then talk
Speaker:start talking about your ideas and
Speaker:how they can fit together.
Speaker:So it's just a it's a communication
Speaker:kind of a trust game that you need
Speaker:to play with them so that they start
Speaker:to learn who you are and know what
Speaker:you are.
Speaker:The yes and.
Speaker:Yeah. More often than not,
Speaker:the entrepreneur is giving you all
Speaker:the projects, not necessarily
Speaker:to start them all right away,
Speaker:but they don't know where else to
Speaker:keep those projects.
Speaker:They need you to keep them safe.
Speaker:So if you can say, I've got all the
Speaker:projects, I understand all the
Speaker:projects, here's the order I
Speaker:think we can build those projects,
Speaker:here's where my four other ideas are
Speaker:gonna merge in.
Speaker:We're gonna do these ones in first
Speaker:quarter, these ones in second
Speaker:quarter, how does that fit?
Speaker:They go, Oh great, at least you've
Speaker:got my projects.
Speaker:Because really what's happening is
Speaker:their brain or their their hard
Speaker:drive is full and they need
Speaker:to get some stuff out of their brain
Speaker:and into your hands so that their
Speaker:brain can keep working.
Speaker:You're the guardian of their babies.
Speaker:What tends to happen with
Speaker:entrepreneurs is when they tell us
Speaker:their idea and we start asking them
Speaker:questions right away, they think
Speaker:we're arguing with them.
Speaker:They think we're debating with them.
Speaker:But when you say, I love your idea,
Speaker:let me ask you some questions so I
Speaker:understand it even more, they're
Speaker:like, Great, ask me questions.
Speaker:Then they don't feel debated, they
Speaker:don't feel argued, they feel like
Speaker:you like it and you just want to
Speaker:know more.
Speaker:After you ask them all the
Speaker:questions, half the time they're
Speaker:gonna be, as we were talking, that's
Speaker:a stupid idea, we can kill that.
Speaker:Or after we've talked about it and
Speaker:now I understand the ROI and the
Speaker:time, let's shelve that till next
Speaker:year. But you didn't come right out
Speaker:and say, That's a dumb idea, here's
Speaker:why.
Speaker:What do you think the ideal
Speaker:communication is between the CEO
Speaker:and the CEO week to week?
Speaker:There's always this question of
Speaker:different personality types and what
Speaker:what they prefer in terms of a walk
Speaker:around the block having a coffee,
Speaker:end-of-day chat, that's very brief,
Speaker:20 minutes, the two-hour
Speaker:block on Friday, also
Speaker:like I th I feel like I've
Speaker:encountered every possible variation.
Speaker:So let me let me put it in terms of
Speaker:like a marriage, right?
Speaker:When you've got two people and
Speaker:they're married, you need to have
Speaker:date night, right?
Speaker:You need to have time away from the
Speaker:kids. And you need to have time on
Speaker:a daily basis just to stay in sync
Speaker:with the stuff that's happening.
Speaker:Like who's picking up the kids,
Speaker:who's taking care of the dog?
Speaker:Have you got this?
Speaker:There's a bit of a divide and
Speaker:conquer that happens on a daily
Speaker:basis as well.
Speaker:And then there's a little bit of a
Speaker:check-in and appreciation that
Speaker:happens on that daily basis.
Speaker:So the weekly, there
Speaker:has to be a weekly one-on-one
Speaker:between the CEO and the COO.
Speaker:I remember when we were growing
Speaker:Gerber Auto Collision, and I said to
Speaker:the CEO, I need to have a weekly
Speaker:meeting. He goes, I don't need that.
Speaker:I'm like, no, no, it's not for you.
Speaker:It's for me.
Speaker:I need your time for one
Speaker:hour every week to walk through what
Speaker:I'm working on, to ask you
Speaker:questions, to get some insights, to
Speaker:get inspired by you, maybe just
Speaker:to get some praise or to bounce
Speaker:ideas, but I need that in sync every
Speaker:single week.
Speaker:And then every quarter, we
Speaker:need to get together in person and
Speaker:go play some pool or play some golf
Speaker:or hang out and maybe get deeper
Speaker:into the strategy and the planning.
Speaker:But we need some time just to get in
Speaker:sync. So you need some time
Speaker:with your CEO and COO to get
Speaker:away from the rest of the leadership
Speaker:team, to go for a run, to go
Speaker:golfing, to work off site
Speaker:from the tennis club together.
Speaker:And then you need to have time in
Speaker:the office on a weekly basis
Speaker:and even daily check-ins around
Speaker:what's going well and what's not
Speaker:going well. Brian and I got so good
Speaker:in scaling one-800 got junk
Speaker:that our desks were right beside
Speaker:each other.
Speaker:So that we were literally could hear
Speaker:each other so that we could stay
Speaker:completely in sync throughout the
Speaker:day. So that we could catch each
Speaker:other and go, that was fucking
Speaker:amazing. I love what you said there,
Speaker:or here's an idea I just heard, or
Speaker:kind of a lot of that in sync stuff.
Speaker:But every Tuesday and Thursday we'd
Speaker:go for a run in the morning.
Speaker:Tuesday mornings he would meet me at
Speaker:my house. Thursday mornings we'd
Speaker:meet at his house to go for a run.
Speaker:And then Friday we'd work from his
Speaker:tennis club or my tennis club.
Speaker:And we would literally be off site
Speaker:for the morning, sometimes not
Speaker:even chatting, just working away on
Speaker:our laptops, but able to
Speaker:stay in sync away from the rest of
Speaker:the team.
Speaker:It sounds like a more intense
Speaker:relationship than your marriage.
Speaker:Or a deep best friend or like
Speaker:brothers, like that level of
Speaker:time you spent together.
Speaker:We had an unfair advantage.
Speaker:Brian was also the best man at my
Speaker:wedding three months before I joined
Speaker:him. So we we were also in a forum
Speaker:group in EO for four
Speaker:years. So he knew me and had seen
Speaker:me run companies and I'd seen him
Speaker:running his.
Speaker:So we already knew a lot about each
Speaker:other and we liked each other.
Speaker:But I think when you're hiring a
Speaker:second in command or when you're
Speaker:looking to work with a CEO, make
Speaker:sure you like each other.
Speaker:Make sure that you do want to spend
Speaker:time together because they will be
Speaker:your business spouse.
Speaker:Men are from Mars, women are from
Speaker:Venus, right? Women solve problems
Speaker:and see the world differently than
Speaker:men do. Men are not hairy
Speaker:versions of women, but if we can
Speaker:learn to communicate and collaborate
Speaker:and talk to each other, I remember
Speaker:when when I would come home, my wife
Speaker:would want to be telling me about
Speaker:her day. I just hold the basket and
Speaker:let her tell me all about her day.
Speaker:And I'm like, that's kind of cool
Speaker:and amazing. And and if she's not
Speaker:telling me about her day, then
Speaker:something is shutting down.
Speaker:Well, you need to understand the CEO
Speaker:the same way. The CEO needs to
Speaker:create space for the COO to give
Speaker:them all the updates.
Speaker:So I'll have like just a little
Speaker:point of contention of like men are
Speaker:from Mars, women are from Venus,
Speaker:or every human is different
Speaker:and needs to understand how to
Speaker:relate to any other human.
Speaker:What's really powerful right now is
Speaker:you can take any personality
Speaker:profile, whether it's Myers Briggs
Speaker:or Disk or Colby, and
Speaker:let's say that it's you and the CEO
Speaker:or you and the COO, you put in,
Speaker:I'm the CEO, here's my Colby
Speaker:profile, here's my COO's
Speaker:Colby profile.
Speaker:What can you tell us about how to
Speaker:work better to col together on a
Speaker:day-to-day basis?
Speaker:And then ChatGPT or Grok
Speaker:will literally give you a one page
Speaker:report on how to work better in
Speaker:sync with that person.
Speaker:You can do that with all of the
Speaker:people in your company that have
Speaker:done personality profiles.
Speaker:It's really powerful.
Speaker:So tangentially related
Speaker:and going a bit back into
Speaker:frameworks, the company
Speaker:that I've just joined has
Speaker:no formal
Speaker:values documented.
Speaker:Although there does seem to be quite
Speaker:a cohesive culture
Speaker:and people are working well
Speaker:together, but there's no nothing
Speaker:documented now looking to hire
Speaker:people and I'm kind of trying to
Speaker:figure out what is it in the
Speaker:culture, what's not it in the
Speaker:culture.
Speaker:Any either ways that you
Speaker:for you suggest going
Speaker:about formalizing it?
Speaker:I love using Jim Collins'
Speaker:model called the mission to Mars.
Speaker:So Jim Collins says you go into
Speaker:an organization and you find from
Speaker:the current people, if we
Speaker:only had five of us and we were
Speaker:going to go to Mars and establish
Speaker:our company in Mars or wherever,
Speaker:new city, who would we take?
Speaker:Who are the five most critical,
Speaker:amazing humans inside of our
Speaker:organization if we had to go and
Speaker:start again?
Speaker:And you get consensus around who
Speaker:those five are.
Speaker:And then you say to the team,
Speaker:describe them.
Speaker:What is it about Kelly
Speaker:that we love?
Speaker:What is it about Kelly that that
Speaker:makes her that role model?
Speaker:And when you get all of the five
Speaker:people described, what about Bob?
Speaker:What about Brandon?
Speaker:When you get them all described, you
Speaker:start seeing the commonalities.
Speaker:Those commonalities become
Speaker:the core values.
Speaker:So that's what you're noticing.
Speaker:You're noticing that there is a
Speaker:core, there is a culture.
Speaker:We just haven't defined what it is.
Speaker:That tends to be how you can quite
Speaker:quickly find it and articulate
Speaker:it. It's a really easy exercise.
Speaker:It's a fun leadership team exercise
Speaker:to do. So it's called the mission to
Speaker:Mars. You can go on Grok
Speaker:and just ask for the Jim Collins
Speaker:mission to Mars core values exercise
Speaker:and they'll pull it up.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:So I've always wondered.
Speaker:So you run the CO alliance, you
Speaker:have a ton of CEOs across
Speaker:all sorts of industries.
Speaker:Bethany and I traditionally have
Speaker:always been traditionally our
Speaker:entire careers have been in
Speaker:technology and in scale ups, in
Speaker:particular younger companies,
Speaker:Series A, Series B, venture back
Speaker:companies and so on.
Speaker:And I'm always wondering how like
Speaker:are we missing a trick?
Speaker:Is there learnings out there in the
Speaker:world from a CEO perspective in
Speaker:other industries that we're not
Speaker:aware of that we should be somehow?
Speaker:Or maybe conversely, how portable
Speaker:are CO skills to other
Speaker:industries? So if I was to join, I
Speaker:don't know, manufacturing or
Speaker:something, would I actually be
Speaker:successful? Or is there just like a
Speaker:ton of stuff that I would have no
Speaker:idea what I'm doing?
Speaker:A really great question.
Speaker:What I've noticed over the years
Speaker:is that other functional areas,
Speaker:the heads of the departments
Speaker:are more transportable to
Speaker:other businesses in the same
Speaker:industry.
Speaker:So if you're the head of marketing
Speaker:for a manufacturing company, you
Speaker:can probably be the head of
Speaker:marketing for any manufacturing
Speaker:company that's around the same size
Speaker:as you. If you're the head of IT,
Speaker:the head of sales, the head of
Speaker:customer engagement, whatever, you
Speaker:can probably move into another
Speaker:industry or another company in the
Speaker:same industry.
Speaker:What's different for the COO role
Speaker:is you also have to match the
Speaker:skills and the style
Speaker:of that CEO because
Speaker:you're becoming kind of the yin and
Speaker:yang partner to them.
Speaker:So you can hire a babysitter
Speaker:to take care of your kids easier
Speaker:than you can find a new spouse,
Speaker:right? You can hire the head of
Speaker:marketing easier than you can hire
Speaker:the head of operations.
Speaker:The second part is you're looking
Speaker:for someone who matches the size of
Speaker:the organization.
Speaker:So the current COO
Speaker:at 1-800 Got Junk has been
Speaker:there for 14 years.
Speaker:His name is Eric Church.
Speaker:Eric and I have known each other for
Speaker:37 years.
Speaker:We met each other in 1987
Speaker:in Ottawa, Canada, started
Speaker:a fraternity together.
Speaker:I was president the first year, and
Speaker:Eric was president the second year.
Speaker:Eric and I are such close friends
Speaker:that we know everything about each
Speaker:other. Eric would have been a
Speaker:horrible COO at 1800
Speaker:Got Junk in the first seven years.
Speaker:Because he'd never built a franchise
Speaker:company. He wasn't entrepreneurial.
Speaker:He didn't have the right culture
Speaker:to get us to the hundred million.
Speaker:I would have been horrible to go
Speaker:from the 100 million to the 900
Speaker:million they're at now, but
Speaker:he is the perfect for that zone
Speaker:because he is more corporate.
Speaker:He is more structure, he is more
Speaker:professionally serviced and managed.
Speaker:And we're both really good fits with
Speaker:Brian. So we both match
Speaker:the CEO, but our timeline
Speaker:of when to arrive was different.
Speaker:So there's that component to figure
Speaker:out too.
Speaker:What I do believe is that the
Speaker:skills and ideas you can take from
Speaker:other industries are as
Speaker:powerful as the ones that you can
Speaker:take from your own industry.
Speaker:And I think every CEO and
Speaker:COO should be a part of an industry
Speaker:trade group, right?
Speaker:Like you should be if if you're in
Speaker:the real estate space, you should be
Speaker:a part of the core collective and go
Speaker:or go into the Go Bundance group.
Speaker:But then that becomes an echo
Speaker:chamber where you hear a lot of
Speaker:stuff from your industry.
Speaker:You should also then be in a
Speaker:non-industry group like a
Speaker:YPO or a vistage
Speaker:or a COO
Speaker:alliance for the COOs, where you're
Speaker:getting ideas from lots of
Speaker:industries, but from your peer group
Speaker:of other COOs or in YPO's
Speaker:case, other CEOs.
Speaker:So do you think that means in some
Speaker:ways it's easier to change industry
Speaker:because it's harder to find the
Speaker:connection with the CEO, so
Speaker:the CEO should be looking more
Speaker:widely, or do you think
Speaker:it's just all
Speaker:When the CEO is looking to hire a
Speaker:second in command, they really have
Speaker:to understand themselves first
Speaker:and the company second and then
Speaker:the size of the organization third,
Speaker:right? Because you're looking to
Speaker:have someone who matches you, who
Speaker:likes to do all the stuff that you
Speaker:don't, who is really good at all the
Speaker:stuff that you suck at.
Speaker:Ideally, someone who has some
Speaker:industry experience, like I had
Speaker:franchising.
Speaker:We weren't looking for junk removal.
Speaker:We were looking for franchising in
Speaker:the home services space, right?
Speaker:Not franchising in the restaurant
Speaker:space, very different.
Speaker:And then we were looking for someone
Speaker:who was entrepreneurial.
Speaker:Why I built all these
Speaker:entrepreneurial companies.
Speaker:I'd coached 120 entrepreneurs
Speaker:before 1993, right?
Speaker:I'd I'd been coaching before
Speaker:business coaching wasn't even a
Speaker:thing yet. For real.
Speaker:Like business coaching started in
Speaker:1993, and I'd already coached 120
Speaker:entrepreneurs.
Speaker:So yeah, you have to find
Speaker:someone who matches you and the
Speaker:industry and the size of the
Speaker:organization. It's a tough role.
Speaker:And where most companies fall down
Speaker:is most of the entrepreneurs have
Speaker:had no training on how to do a job
Speaker:interview. They don't know how to do
Speaker:an interview. They don't know how to
Speaker:do reference checks.
Speaker:They talk too much during the
Speaker:interview. They don't know how to
Speaker:probe. They don't know how to ask
Speaker:open and closed-ended questions and
Speaker:use a pregnant pause.
Speaker:They don't know how to to to get
Speaker:the candidate selling themselves.
Speaker:So what happens is they hire
Speaker:because they like someone.
Speaker:Liking someone is only one part
Speaker:of the job interview.
Speaker:But knowing that they've done it
Speaker:before and have the skill sets to do
Speaker:it before, and that they don't just
Speaker:have the knowledge to do something,
Speaker:but they've done it.
Speaker:Right. Like I know how to win an
Speaker:Olympic gold, just be faster
Speaker:than everybody else.
Speaker:I know how to break a world record,
Speaker:just be faster than ever, but I've
Speaker:never done it.
Speaker:So I know how to manage
Speaker:people. I know how to to run
Speaker:a P L, but I've never
Speaker:been an accountant.
Speaker:So learning the skill of of being
Speaker:able to interview past the knowledge
Speaker:and into the actual experience
Speaker:layer is where most companies are
Speaker:not very good at yet.
Speaker:Do you have so I agree.
Speaker:I feel like the area where I
Speaker:struggle most is sales
Speaker:because they're just really good at
Speaker:selling and what
Speaker:you want to hear, but I want to know
Speaker:what they actually have done.
Speaker:Yeah. So th this so on
Speaker:the interviewing side, it's just
Speaker:asking questions.
Speaker:So it is just saying, so when have
Speaker:you done it? Who could I call to
Speaker:verify that you've done it?
Speaker:Who have you worked with while you
Speaker:were doing it that I could talk to?
Speaker:If I called Bob and asked him about
Speaker:your skills at having done that,
Speaker:what would he say?
Speaker:Right? It's it's those kinds of
Speaker:questions and probing that you're
Speaker:asking that most people don't
Speaker:have that skill set yet.
Speaker:They haven't been certified in
Speaker:interviewing. It's one of the 12
Speaker:modules in my invest in your leaders
Speaker:training is the skill of of doing
Speaker:interviews.
Speaker:But we have to get our management
Speaker:team to like a bronze or
Speaker:a silver layer of skill
Speaker:set at doing interviews because they
Speaker:do them all day long.
Speaker:Business is really, really easy if
Speaker:you give people the skills that are
Speaker:in my invest in your leaders
Speaker:training and an operating system
Speaker:like EOS that work
Speaker:together.
Speaker:Right. But you can have the best
Speaker:system like EOS, but none
Speaker:of the soft skills of leadership,
Speaker:your business is never going to be
Speaker:successful. Or you can have all the
Speaker:leadership skills and no operating
Speaker:system and you're not going to be
Speaker:successful.
Speaker:Yeah. So in that interviewing
Speaker:space, I feel like working
Speaker:in scales back to back, we're always
Speaker:going into high growth mode.
Speaker:So you join a company, we're doing a
Speaker:fundraise, we're gonna land ten
Speaker:million pounds, and we're gonna go
Speaker:off on this crazy growth journey.
Speaker:And step by step, company by
Speaker:company, I've gotten better at this
Speaker:leveling up of the interview
Speaker:process, if you want to call it
Speaker:that, from first contact all the way
Speaker:through conversion of a candidate to
Speaker:an employee and the onboarding
Speaker:itself that happens post that entire
Speaker:process. Is there anything that you
Speaker:can kind of impart on me as somebody
Speaker:that's who's done this before
Speaker:several times, of things that I
Speaker:should maybe think about more or
Speaker:maybe think about less, perhaps?
Speaker:So at College Pro Painters, which is
Speaker:where I really learned kind of the
Speaker:real world MBA of running a company,
Speaker:every year we had to go out and hire
Speaker:and train 800 franchisees.
Speaker:So imagine in four months to go
Speaker:recruit, hire and train 800
Speaker:students to be franchisees.
Speaker:And then in one month, we had to
Speaker:train them to go out and hire 8,000
Speaker:students to paint houses.
Speaker:So over the course of four and a
Speaker:half months, we were recruiting,
Speaker:hiring, and training 8,800
Speaker:people. So our interviewing systems
Speaker:became operationally world class.
Speaker:Like there's not a lot of companies
Speaker:out there that hire 8,800
Speaker:people every single year. And I was
Speaker:in the top 30 people of the company
Speaker:doing it. So the systems that
Speaker:I would make sure that you have in
Speaker:place are first to
Speaker:really know the behavioral traits
Speaker:that you're looking for on a
Speaker:roll-by-role basis.
Speaker:What are the three to five
Speaker:core ways that we need
Speaker:that person to show up?
Speaker:As an example, a salesperson
Speaker:will never make it through an HR
Speaker:screening process because HR
Speaker:people hate salespeople.
Speaker:Salespeople are winging it, they
Speaker:shoot from the hip, they make it up
Speaker:on the go, they don't follow systems
Speaker:because there's no real systems that
Speaker:exist.
Speaker:They need to be able to bob and
Speaker:weave and sell with culture and
Speaker:match energy and be as persistent
Speaker:as possible. And no does not mean
Speaker:no to a salesperson.
Speaker:No only means no in a bedroom.
Speaker:For HR, they can't
Speaker:stand any of that.
Speaker:No means no, I's are dotted,
Speaker:T's are crossed, policies and
Speaker:procedures.
Speaker:So very different behavioral traits
Speaker:for two different humans.
Speaker:So understand what behavioral
Speaker:traits you're looking for.
Speaker:Make sure that everyone who's
Speaker:interviewing the people knows what
Speaker:you're looking for, knows how to
Speaker:define it, and has some starting
Speaker:questions to start the interview
Speaker:around those areas.
Speaker:At the end of the interview, make
Speaker:sure that you can rate people on a
Speaker:bell curve against the
Speaker:core behavioral traits you're
Speaker:looking for and the skills they need
Speaker:to have, and rate them where 40%
Speaker:of the candidates get a three out of
Speaker:five, 20% of the candidates
Speaker:get a two out of five, twenty
Speaker:percent can get a four out of five,
Speaker:ten percent get a one out of five,
Speaker:and ten percent can be given a five
Speaker:out of five. So that bell curve of
Speaker:candidates with at least three
Speaker:proofs for why you gave every
Speaker:rating. So simple systems like that
Speaker:are powerful.
Speaker:I don't let anybody look at a resume
Speaker:when it's being submitted.
Speaker:I eat we email the person back right
Speaker:away. We were like, thanks for your
Speaker:resume. Please read the vivid vision
Speaker:of what our company looks like, acts
Speaker:like, and feels like three years in
Speaker:the future, and send us a two to
Speaker:three minute video of how you can
Speaker:help us make it come true and what
Speaker:you love about our vivid vision.
Speaker:The only resumes I'm gonna look at
Speaker:are the videos that I get back
Speaker:that I like.
Speaker:Then I'll look at the video and
Speaker:the resume and bring them in for a
Speaker:group interview.
Speaker:And then we tend to follow the
Speaker:systems from the book Who by Jeff
Speaker:Smart or his dad's book, Top
Speaker:Grading. We kind of take that and
Speaker:make a more entrepreneurial version
Speaker:system to run the actual interview
Speaker:with the first, the second, and
Speaker:torque. Here's what drives me
Speaker:bonkers is like employees will
Speaker:or companies will say, Oh, I don't
Speaker:want to spend three or six hours
Speaker:interviewing a candidate over three
Speaker:interviews.
Speaker:Okay, but then you're gonna just
Speaker:wait 90 days to see how they
Speaker:work out. Like the reason you have
Speaker:to wait 90 days to see how they're
Speaker:doing is because you suck at the
Speaker:interviews. If you were good at the
Speaker:interviews, it's that slow to hire,
Speaker:quick to fire.
Speaker:You have to be slow to hire, but
Speaker:it's by being intentional with your
Speaker:process. The reason that most people
Speaker:don't do the long interviews is they
Speaker:don't really know how to do the
Speaker:interview. So they just end up
Speaker:talking to people and asking a bunch
Speaker:of random questions and not even
Speaker:knowing where they're going with it.
Speaker:So then, yeah, it just becomes a bit
Speaker:of a waste of time for everybody.
Speaker:We didn't have time with that at
Speaker:College Pro Painters because if we
Speaker:hired the wrong franchisee,
Speaker:we couldn't replace him until next
Speaker:year.
Speaker:So that means we were down a
Speaker:franchise.
Speaker:So we were very, very predictable
Speaker:with what we were looking for.
Speaker:How like I'll tell you right now,
Speaker:I go back to 1986
Speaker:when I was hired as a franchisee.
Speaker:They were looking for leadership,
Speaker:attainment, tenacity, introspection,
Speaker:and interdependence.
Speaker:Those were the five core traits that
Speaker:they looked for.
Speaker:That was 35 years ago, and I
Speaker:can still rattle those off.
Speaker:Actually, almost 40.
Speaker:So when you're so clear on what
Speaker:you're looking for and you know how
Speaker:to find it, the definition of
Speaker:tenacity was the dog-like work ethic
Speaker:to hit over, under around any
Speaker:obstacle put in one's path.
Speaker:That's a definition I remember from
Speaker:when I was doing interviews for
Speaker:college pro painters in 1989
Speaker:when I was hiring franchisees.
Speaker:But most companies couldn't
Speaker:give you the definition of what
Speaker:they're interviewing for tomorrow.
Speaker:Does it work for leadership like
Speaker:senior leadership positions?
Speaker:I'll give you, I'll give an example
Speaker:on senior leadership.
Speaker:We were hiring somebody to be the
Speaker:head of finance at 1-800 Got
Speaker:Junk, and I wanted to know
Speaker:culturally what they were like.
Speaker:I drove past their home
Speaker:to see what their home looked like.
Speaker:And I remember driving past,
Speaker:it was a drive-by, and I
Speaker:remember driving past Trisha's home,
Speaker:and they know this, Trish Saltis,
Speaker:who became the CFO.
Speaker:She lived in the same neighborhood
Speaker:that Brian and I lived in, Czech,
Speaker:right? Culturally similar.
Speaker:We drove past her house.
Speaker:It was this cute.
Speaker:Kind of craftsman style bungalow.
Speaker:She had their living room windows
Speaker:open. I could kind of see inside.
Speaker:You could see that it was decorated
Speaker:and it was clean and and and the
Speaker:garden was done.
Speaker:I'm like, yes, I get it.
Speaker:Then I drove by the other guys, and
Speaker:the other guy, we could never get a
Speaker:read on him. He was just very beige.
Speaker:And I drove past this guy's home,
Speaker:and it was this very kind of
Speaker:nondescript.
Speaker:Beige.
Speaker:Yeah, it was it was gray, but beige
Speaker:home, right? It was like there
Speaker:wasn't even any land, it was just
Speaker:like grass, it was nothing.
Speaker:So culturally, we
Speaker:would dig. You go into their
Speaker:Facebooks, you go to their LinkedIn,
Speaker:you like you have to care about this
Speaker:stuff.
Speaker:And that's where it goes wrong with
Speaker:senior leaders, you think, is just
Speaker:not digging deep enough on the
Speaker:culture side. 'Cause it ends up
Speaker:being leadership style or culture
Speaker:that means that they're not a good
Speaker:fit rather than whether or not they
Speaker:can do their job.
Speaker:Correct. I had the CEO of a law
Speaker:firm, John Barry, and he was hiring
Speaker:a COO.
Speaker:And the COO was flying into
Speaker:Oklahoma, and John said, You can
Speaker:stay in our guest house and we'll
Speaker:have dinner the night before, then
Speaker:we'll go in and do the interview the
Speaker:next day. And the CO said, Great.
Speaker:I mean, any COO that says yes to
Speaker:staying at his potential customers
Speaker:or employer's guest home
Speaker:check, right?
Speaker:As a culture.
Speaker:They get to see each other really
Speaker:quickly right away.
Speaker:John is a former military guy,
Speaker:total type I call him type triple A,
Speaker:just total type A.
Speaker:He says to the guy, hey, I don't
Speaker:know what you're up to in the
Speaker:morning. I don't normally get up at
Speaker:five o'clock and go to the gym.
Speaker:And the COO says, Awesome.
Speaker:I brought my workout gear with me.
Speaker:I was going to get up and do a
Speaker:workout on my own.
Speaker:I'll go with you.
Speaker:You don't even have to do an
Speaker:interview at that point.
Speaker:Like you already know this person is
Speaker:culturally fitting, right?
Speaker:But now you can get into the skills.
Speaker:Have they done it before?
Speaker:Right. But most companies won't do
Speaker:the work.
Speaker:So we've had a fascinating
Speaker:conversation today, Cameron, thank
Speaker:you. Like big theory
Speaker:practical suggestions.
Speaker:If our listeners
Speaker:only take one thing away
Speaker:from listening to this episode
Speaker:today, what is it?
Speaker:Their families and their lives.
Speaker:So I think it's to remember that
Speaker:human experience and and really care
Speaker:about people on the journey that
Speaker:we're on together.
Speaker:That's a fabulous way to end the
Speaker:episode. So thank you, Cameron
Speaker:Harold, for joining us on the
Speaker:operations room. If you like what
Speaker:you hear, please subscribe or leave
Speaker:us a comment, and we will see you
Speaker:next week.
