Sometimes Jay Schwedelson gets into consultant mode, and with Gary Vaynerchuk in the hot seat, it turns into pure gold. This conversation is part marketing therapy session, part culture playbook, and part Knicks nostalgia trip. From why boosting bad creative is like lighting money on fire, to how brands should actually ride viral waves without getting lost in them, Gary breaks it all down with his trademark intensity. If you’ve ever wondered where branding ends and sales begins, or how to play the long game in the new era of “interest media,” this is one you’ll want to hear all the way through.

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Check out Gary Vaynerchuk’s book Day Trading Attention for a practical breakdown of today’s most effective content formats, explore more of his work at garyvaynerchuk.com, or follow him on Instagram for his latest insights.

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Best Moments:

(03:14) Gary calls boosting underperforming posts the single stupidest thing in marketing

(05:11) The nuance of “jab, jab, jab, right hook” and why entitlement ruins the ask

(07:12) How to sample your own winning content and turn it into conversion gold

(09:45) Why last-touch attribution is total garbage and branding gets lost in the math

(15:22) Gary imagines going full suit-and-tie just to flip culture on its head

(18:00) Why niche passion beats follower count in today’s “interest media”

(23:03) The PAC framework: platforms, algorithms, culture as the real marketing playbook

(28:12) The difference between viral micro-moments and long-term cultural movements

(30:54) Knicks heartbreak in ’94 and why Ewing and Mason still matter

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Jay Schwedelson: Hey, just want to jump in here real quick on, uh, this super exciting episode with Gary v. Gary Vaynerchuk.

Jay Schwedelson: He's awesome. Uh, but you know, we try to keep this not a family friendly show, but slightly family friendly. You won't find us, uh, using a lot of. Crazy words, but sometimes Gary V goes off and does his thing, which is great. That's his vibe, that's his style, and I'm all for it. But I just wanna give you a minute here in case you're in the car with kids or you have a certain chill vibe going on and you're like, wait a minute, I wasn't ready for that.

Jay Schwedelson: Uh, he's fantastic, but just wanted to give you a little bit of a moment here of pause before you get rolling and cannot wait. This is one of the my favorite things I've recorded, so hopefully you enjoy it too.

Jay Schwedelson: We are back for the do this, not that podcast. And I, I mean, I've never been more excited about anything in my entire life, let alone this episode right here. So who's here? So we have Gary Vaynerchuk. Now you probably know him as Gary, Vee but you probably just know him, period.

Jay Schwedelson: So doing a intro on him is super awkward and weird, but I'll do it anyway. He's easily one of the most influential entrepreneurs and marketers on the Planet, New York Times bestseller of this book Day Trading Intention, which I will tell you, he didn't tell me to say this. This thing is wild. I'm writing a book right now and this thing just ruined it for me because my book sucks and this thing's phenomenal and I have massive imposter syndrome.

Jay Schwedelson: If you are in marketing and you haven't read a day trade attention, then you're not really in marketing greatest book of all time. But his background, he's not just some famous dude. He took a a family liquor store from super small to the $60 million e-commerce thing when people didn't even know what a Google ad was.

Jay Schwedelson: Then he founded VaynerMedia, which is just this incredible agency working with. Pepsi and Fanatics and Indeed and so many others. And he's also chairman of VA of Vayner X, which is this wild mo modern media company that has NFTV Friends and Intellectual Property and speaker Bureaus, all this stuff. And the dude's got 50 million followers.

Jay Schwedelson: There's like seven of him. He's Gary V. He's here. Gary, thanks for coming on, man.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Dude, honestly, I might audio clip that and make that my Chiron for everything I do. You're very, uh, no, I'm joking train, but thank you. Thank you so much for having me, bro.

Jay Schwedelson: I'm, I'm super stoked to have you here and I don't wanna waste, uh, any time and do the whole, what was your story and tell me about wine and all this stuff. 'cause I love that about you, but I wanna get into it. I need to pick, put a USB in your brain. So I want to ask you lots of random, random stuff. So here, and I've been watching, I've been, I've been all in on all your content.

Jay Schwedelson: So here's my first question. I have this events business. We put on a lot of events and we're doing something stupid. Okay So what we do is we'll go out there and we'll put ads on social media, on on Instagram, or content on social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, whatever. And the ones that are trying to get people to register and stuff.

Jay Schwedelson: And mostly when they're not doing well, what we do is we put ad dollars, we amplify, we we boost them with ad dollars to try to almost hide. This crappy creative that we've made is amplification of paid ads on social media, epically stupid.

Gary Vaynerchuk: So first of all, the fact that you asked that question in the way that you asked that question, I wish you could, I wish you actually did put a USB in me and, and see what was going on with my chemicals because my heart. Smiled so hard because I have been very loudly and effectively, but not directly enough.

Gary Vaynerchuk: This is something I've literally thought about this summer, which is this fall I need to make black and white direct content that the single stupidest thing in the world of marketing and business and pop culture is amplifying content that clearly did not do well 'cause they didn't do well organically.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Because A, you're trying to convert something like ticket sales or B, 'cause you're so deeply insecure and you don't want something that has 800 views. And so you want 40,000 views because you are literally taking money and throwing it into a garbage and then lighting a match and burning it to the ground.

Gary Vaynerchuk: So yes, you are doing the single worst thing on Earth, comma, comma. The fact that you now know it, whether you saw a clip or you read it in the book, makes me so happy 'cause I am desperate to be a positive contributor in some way, shape, or form. And it sounds like you are now ready to no longer do that anymore.

Gary Vaynerchuk: So kudos to you.

Jay Schwedelson: Well, okay. That makes me feel really good, other than the being stupid part, which I agree with and my wife would agree with. Um, but here's the part that, so I read the book, I love the book, and I'm, I, here's the part I'm confused by. So one of the things you're really known for and how. I got all hooked on on your content is this idea of jab, jab, jab, right hook meaning for people out there don't know.

Jay Schwedelson: Gary's really coined this whole thing of where you, you give, you give, you give, whether, you know, with your content, it's you're providing value, you're providing value, providing value, and then you hit with this hook and say, by the way, why don't you work with me or buy this thing or do

Gary Vaynerchuk: And, and the key there is you ask, you don't take, I always like to clarify here. You give, you give, you give, and then you ask. And when they do not. Deliver on your ask. You do not feel bad or sad or mad at them. Very key nuance to my model that I'm passionate about, right? Like the entitlement of thinking.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Just because you've given a bunch of good content that someone's gonna buy your sneaker, or your wine, or your trading card or anything else that other people sell is audacious and manipulative. The concept of give, give, give is brand, and then you're gonna convert a certain part of that audience. So yes, I'm deeply passionate about that.

Gary Vaynerchuk: So heard. Go ahead.

Jay Schwedelson: So, but a lot of times we were putting content out there and you have your winners and losers, and in my case, we're amplifying. Losers because we don't want 'em to be losers. The problem is, right. The problem is our jabs are winners. I, I mean, you know, they're winners because they're like providing value.

Jay Schwedelson: So the thing, but the value ones, like if I put out a piece of content and it does really well, that one's not asking for anything. So it's not converting to pipeline or sales that

Gary Vaynerchuk: Well, not black and white. Last attribution sub. Subconsciously it is, right? Like that's called brand. One is sales, one is brand. So yes heard and I know where you're going. Keep going. So there's the question. So now what?

Jay Schwedelson: So now, so I do, I do, I amplify the winners that may not be the ones converting to sales, or do I

Gary Vaynerchuk: give you a good one. Lemme give you one right off the bat. I love that this is more consulting session than podcast 'cause I'm enjoying it and I, I'm so pumped 'cause I even in eight seconds, this is gonna f***ing crush for you. You ready?

Jay Schwedelson: I need it.

Gary Vaynerchuk: You clear Charisma and sense of humor is one of your biggest attributes.

Gary Vaynerchuk: You know, that besides your hair. You know that your personality is what you got, right? I can literally,

Jay Schwedelson: all I got. It's all I got.

Gary Vaynerchuk: we've literally been here for eight minutes and it's as clear to me as the sun will come up tomorrow. Here's what I want you to try the next time you have a piece of content that does well, that's a jab, right?

Gary Vaynerchuk: A high value piece of content, I want you to then take that piece of content back home and post produce it. I want you to take that piece of content. And then slightly tweak it. Let me tell you how I would do that. I would have whatever video you have that did well, I want you to then make an edit where you, your face, you, you Me in the bottom left hand corner with a cutout.

Gary Vaynerchuk: As long as the bottom left hand corner wasn't critical to the piece of content, I want your little head to be in there while the video's running. This is the edit I want you to make.

Jay Schwedelson: I'm doing it.

Gary Vaynerchuk: You are literally, I'm gonna reenact it here. You're obviously, for people that are listening, you won't be able to get this, but follow me, everyone.

Gary Vaynerchuk: If you're watching visually, this'll be easy. This is literally what you're doing while that video is playing, you're like,

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah.

Gary Vaynerchuk: and then you're pointing up, you're pointing a finger to the audience saying, wait for me. I'm about to jump in. We're all watching this video, and then you're gonna go buy some f***ing tickets for me for this event.

Jay Schwedelson: That's it in their face. I love it.

Gary Vaynerchuk: it'll work. Here's why that piece of content already proved that the first three seconds. The fir the next 10 seconds work, right? So you know you have something that works. Now you've added an extra element of intrigue of like, what the hell is this dude's head doing in the bottom left hand corner?

Gary Vaynerchuk: Then you're gonna obviously not do exactly what I said. You're gonna be like, Hey, thanks for watching that. What this is about is our big event on October 19th and da da, there's a link. So you're gonna take the original piece of content that did well organically showed consumer relevance and interest.

Gary Vaynerchuk: You're gonna DJ it. Why do you think all these EDM guys had the hits they f***ing, and what Puff Daddy's career was built on? I know that might not be politically correct these days, but that sampling, these were already f***ing hits. You are sampling your own hit and if you get your, you see where I'm going?

Jay Schwedelson: I, I like the, I like the analogy of sampling because if I was, I have no music abilities. I couldn't even sing in my Bar Mitzvah. Uh uh, I like the, uh, I like the idea of pulling in the winner and just tweaking it a little bit. And that's what I amplify. That's

Jay Schwedelson: plan. You're, you're taking a jab and you're converting it into a right hook using my old terminology. And if you run media against the right kind of target against creative that has already clearly worked, where you're editing it in a way that didn't disrupt what made it work, you will f***ing crush.

Jay Schwedelson: All right. I love that. And you know, you touched on something and, and I, I believe attribution is total garbage. Um, and you touched on last touch, it's garbage,

Gary Vaynerchuk: because for 20 years Google got credit for things that other mediums were doing because. Google became defacto place you would go. Kudos to Google. Great business, but people overinvested in search, because I would see a, I'm looking at a billboard in Manhattan right now. I would see that and it would be a second, and then I would go to f***ing Google and be like, medical Club 49 or whatever.

Gary Vaynerchuk: And then back home at Marketing Land, they're like, oh, Google worked and the billboard doesn't Yeah, it's total crap. Like I spend a lot of time in the world. I, I do a lot of different media, but one of the media is email and I and my clients are like, oh, these email campaigns are crushing it compared to whatever I go, even though it's not, doesn't help my business. I'm like, no, the email didn't work.

Jay Schwedelson: It was just the last thing they got, the last stop on the train. You're assign value to, to crap.

Gary Vaynerchuk: that's because brother, there's a big confusion in our industry about what is sales and what is marketing, right? Email and Google AdWords. Are much closer to sales DNA than organic social content, which is much more similar to what worked in the fifties and sixties on television. You had the attention of the consumer on a medium, you story told, and it affected them.

Gary Vaynerchuk: What, what people don't understand is that sales is what you do when you're not good at branding and marketing. And listen, I love being a salesman. In fact, you may know this since you, sounds like you've done a deep dive. Probably the thing I'm most excited about in the world right now is live social shopping.

Gary Vaynerchuk: That's f***ing QVC. That's sales to the oomph. I believe in sales and marketing the most. However, I did not buy in the eighties and nineties and two thousands, all that Nike stuff 'cause somebody last touch attributed me. Somebody cold called me, Nike sent me an email. I bought it because of brand. Right.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Nobody, nobody's buying a Labubu right now and sticking it on their f***ing purse because they got cookied and we followed them around the internet and they, we made them suffocated them to buy a Labubu. They're buying it 'cause a brand because if they put it on their bag, they're in the know and they want to feel in the know.

Gary Vaynerchuk: That's called the psychology of brand.

Jay Schwedelson: In, in a lot of ways the, the, the media that's measurable is the, is the most ridiculous meaning, like it's getting credit for way too much just because it happens to be measurable.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Well, now you're talking about the, the accommodation of corporate marketing, which is really sad. We've sucked out the creatives and we've implanted the mathematicians, which is fine. I'm a big believer in purple. I am not red. I'm not blue. I'm not just art. I'm not just math. I actually think the reason math has gained momentum in marketing is 'cause the artists went too far and like everyone who wasn't good enough to be in Hollywood went to Madison Avenue and used their brands money to make the commercials that they wanted to make for themselves not to sell f***ing soap.

Gary Vaynerchuk: So I understand why we have the era of math. It was actually the artist's fault. However, the problem is, we are too in the era of math right now, and the beauty is 50 50.

Jay Schwedelson: Oh, I, I, I totally agree with that and I love that. And side note, what would be the odds of you ever walking around with a Labubu somewhere attached to your being?

Gary Vaynerchuk: Uh, pretty high. If it was a collaboration with V Friends and Bubu,

Jay Schwedelson: should have known that. I didn't know that. That's

Gary Vaynerchuk: know. Only if only, like I definitely am not usually quote unquote on trend. Occasionally I'm so me that seven years later it becomes the trend, but I am not trendy. Um. So the hi, if Labubu comes calling and says, we'd like to do a Labubu V Friends collaboration, now that I'm building this Marvel Pokemon world and I need to win in things that look like Labubu.

Gary Vaynerchuk: But otherwise, you know, it's funny, I, I get a, I just did something the other day where they were giving me way too many flowers of like setting all these, like being on trend. I was like, I didn't, I didn't set that trend I didn't, I wasn't on trend. Me dressing down and me cursing was just me being me. And then like the world evolved and it became a little more common in the business world.

Gary Vaynerchuk: That's not me setting the trend nor being on trend. That's just, I stepped in shit.

Jay Schwedelson: Well, I personally thank you 'cause hopefully, I think you actually started the trend. So I went from wearing button downs and frigging khakis, so I don't even own that crap anymore. So I owe you.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Of society has penetrated the workforce. I do think there's some romance lost in that. You know, I, I actually understand people who put like dressing like back to, back to authenticity. Like it's authentically running through my mind that I might just wanna do that for the fun of it when I'm 90 to look back at that era.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Not, not for any other reason. I love the people right now that are overly dressed because I'm like, good for you. Like that's your f***ing jam. And in fact, just like tight clothes and baggy clothes, pendulum swing, I'd be shocked if in 15 years we don't see a big movement. 5 years, 9 years, 13 years, a big movement to proper attire coming back.

Gary Vaynerchuk: 'cause we've all got tired of f***ing ball caps and t-shirts and baggy shorts as well. So I could see all of it happening.

Jay Schwedelson: Well, I'm doubling down. I'm go men's warehouse. I'm buying equity in theirs immediately. Uh, you know what you should do speaking of this, 'cause it kind of leads into it, you're, you've Basically have said out there that social media is kind of dead or dying. It's really interest media. So like if you started an account today, zero followers, okay, and it was just you wearing suits like on a TikTok account and you posted videos, I'm wearing a suit.

Jay Schwedelson: Today is the world today, because it's now what you call interest media, is that going to do better than people that have followers of a zillion followers?

Gary Vaynerchuk: It will do better if that human. Are you talking about me? Me, Gary v Or me? Just like

Jay Schwedelson: Well, it would've to be you, Gary V. If I wore a suit or a random person wore a suit, it's like, who gives a

Gary Vaynerchuk: It would it me for sure, because once you have a platform, you have a platform. Hence why brand matters. But, but anyone like literally a 29-year-old listening right now who's never made a piece of content if it's in his, in this scenario or hers for that matter.

Gary Vaynerchuk: soul this is what's so cool about what's actually happening that I think a lot of people don't see. We throw around authenticity and passion and transparency so much and, and often unfortunately, the people that throw it around a lot of times are like the least authentic.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah.

Gary Vaynerchuk: But what is very clear to me as someone who I would say is a human anthropologist and really does spend a shocking amount of his time watching, I, I would say that if it was in my soul.

Gary Vaynerchuk: That I like passionately care about being dapper, and I think there's incredible self-esteem value. When I put on a suit and I go into Superman mode versus when I'm Clark Head, if that's my essence and I can communicate that while I'm building that account, yes, that person will crush. If I'm doing it because I'm listening to this podcast, I'm like, oh, here's an angle.

Jay Schwedelson: Right.

Gary Vaynerchuk: And, uh, when you're chasing money, if you're investing in crypto because you think that's where the money is, if you're investing in real estate, 'cause you think that's where the money is. If you're cannabis, uh, collectibles, uh, social media, marketing influencers, ai, if you're chasing 'cause that's where you think the money is versus quadruple downing on what f***ing gets you going, you will be vulnerable when you triple down on what gets you going.

Gary Vaynerchuk: If you love Bon Jovi. And you just go f***ing ham on Bon Jovi content. The fact that in for 15 years of social you would've 80 followers after a year. And now the fact that when I post my third Bon Jovi video, it will find people that have a propensity to give a f*** about Bon Jovi. 'cause that's how deep the AI is.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Now that I have 800 followers on that third post, and I'm starting to build my world. That is a level of opportunity for society, for happiness and commercial success. That is a level of nirvana that I think people cannot see in this moment where we've decided to cloud social as bad, not good.

Jay Schwedelson: Well along those lines, and I couldn't agree with you more that this idea of interest. media That forget about your follower count Follower count is only social proof to decide whether or not you

Gary Vaynerchuk: Yeah, there's some brand, there's some lingering brand equity on it. I do believe within a half decade the following count might not even be publicly seen. I think it will continue to diminish in importance in this rise of AI interest media algorithms.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah. And I, and I think that's a good thing, um,

Gary Vaynerchuk: Well, I, I would say, well, I would say it's a good thing for day one people, I would say for people like myself who've bled for 15 years to build a fan base, it'd be like email marketing. Okay, yay. You know, you spent your whole life building a million person email list and now the market says, and Google comes out and says, now with Gmail, everyone has a million.

Gary Vaynerchuk: You know, I'm sure the people that work their tails off, but I agree with you. I think merit should reign. Uh, you know, and I think I understand what you're saying and, and from a place of people dwelling that they haven't followed what I've been talking about for 15 years and I missed the boat. Good news, you missed nothing.

Jay Schwedelson: Well along those lines though, because in marketing there's always this thing, best practices, which. It, it's nails on a chalkboard. I literally hate the phrase best practices. I said, by the time somebody becomes a best practice, it's an antiquated piece of crap. Um, and, and the problem is with this idea of interest media instead of social media, if you try to say what are the best practices and then you follow them, then you are not gonna be playing the interest media game isn't Is that, I mean, do you think best practices pretty much are crap?

Gary Vaynerchuk: Yeah, listen, I'm a, I'm a fan of where you're going, comma. I think of this like imposter syndrome, like that term drives me crazy 'cause we came up with a new term for the word insecure.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah.

Gary Vaynerchuk: We put makeup, we put makeup on. The word insecure. I think best practices is makeup on the real world, which is you need to be strategic at all times, right?

Gary Vaynerchuk: So I, I get where you're going and I actually am a buyer that once it hits that status in corporations, it's garbage, often, comma Every, the only reason VaynerMedia is dominating is on a daily basis. All I care about is the essence of what is the best things you can do to maximize relevance and awareness, to create consideration, to create purchase, and that I call PAC inside of VaynerMedia platforms, algorithms, and culture, right?

Gary Vaynerchuk: First, you need to know which platforms have the attention. What's Spotify versus Substack versus Snapchat? Spotlight versus Facebook, blue Proper. Infeed versus Instagram versus TikTok versus TikTok. Shop versus TikTok. Affiliate versus LinkedIn versus LinkedIn. Like that is truly what. I think I've committed my career to and has set me slash us apart.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Next, algorithms within everything I just mentioned and the 30 other things I didn't mention, TikTok, YouTube, shorts, Twitter. What? How do the algorithms work? How, what creative gets attention. What formats, what are, what are the things that will work? How important are the three seconds versus not? A lot of people became obsessed with the first three seconds.

Gary Vaynerchuk: They don't realize the 10th second has now become uncomfortably important. Right, things like that. And then finally, culture. Do you know what's going on with Labubu? Do you know what Cindy Sweeney's going through right now with her campaign? Do you know? You know, do you know what's going on with Aaron Rodgers at the Steelers?

Gary Vaynerchuk: Do you understand if sexy, red and ice spicer as hot as they were a year ago or not? Do you understand what's going on with Fortnite and Roblox? Are you aware of what the number one show is on Netflix or are you not? Do you know what's going on with denim? Are you aware that gap is coming back or are you a not?

Gary Vaynerchuk: Do you understand that Kit has become the establishment and things you know that are coming up, whether it's mad, happy, or the Nude project? Like do you know shit or don't you? To me. In fact, in our industry, brand strategists are gonna get replaced by pop culture strategists, right? Current consumer relevance strategists.

Gary Vaynerchuk: And so that's how I think about that brother. So whether you call it best practices or best strategies or strategic blueprints, or. You know, I call it, ironically, I call it day trading attention to some degree, right? Like to me, I'm trying to understand the framework of PAC, and I believe that the liquid deaths and the poppies and gaps resurgence and all these things, if you look under the hood, they are the people doing the things I'm talking about and everybody else is not.

Gary Vaynerchuk: And that is why we are seeing catastrophic and super stupendous remarketing. Uh, opportunities. When I say remarketing, I mean not remarketing. I mean, market shifts on who the leaders are, who's doing revenue, who's declining in revenue. We're seeing extremes of growth and declines that we have not seen historically in Fortune 5,000 land because the game is so complicated now, and most people have no f***ing clue.

Jay Schwedelson: I, I, I couldn't agree more. It's almost like the brands that move at the, at the speed of culture are the ones that. Really are getting that, that attention. You know, you can't just, just, just try to do all the different tactics you like. You just riled off a million different things. Have to be listening and never even heard of Kith let alone know that Kith is now part of the establishment.

Jay Schwedelson: I mean, that is how in tune you need to be, right? I mean, you need to be in it to be advanced in all of it.

Gary Vaynerchuk: What do you need to do to be a great agency in that era? I would say pop culture strategy is at the tippy top.

Jay Schwedelson: Agreed. That's amazing. Yeah, I, I, listen, I watch way too much reality tv, so I'm, I'm in a good place, so I'm.

Jay Schwedelson: excited

Gary Vaynerchuk: Oh, but you are in a good place. It's funny. Nema Nema, who works at Vayner X, director and strategist and creative, you know, he was on a reality show. He's deep in the Bravo culture. We talk about all the time when we look at the metrics like. Understanding what's going on with Love Island the last 90 days, and understanding how to incorporate it into your ethos, whether it's product, marketing, comms, uh, engagement, even something we call Cassie.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Commenting as creative, leaving comments as a brand, you know, in certain places on the internet, um, was incredibly fruitful for business results. And when I say that, what I just rattled off, both Love island, deep cut, love island knowledge, and the concept of Cassie comments as creative, leaving comments on love island pieces of content as a brand, when you know, not just ha ha ha, but you make a joke.

Gary Vaynerchuk: We are about to reset at a level that people have no comprehension of, and the people that are actually into popular culture. And when I say popular culture, by the way. I mean, every one of the niches, what do 60 to 80-year-old Mexican American grandmas give a f*** about right now? If you don't know those Nutellas and novels and all those things, like if you don't know those things right, then you don't know how to market to them.

Jay Schwedelson: Totally. I, I gotta tell you, I was blown away when I saw. Where I live that there were Love island watch parties at bars and restaurants in person. I was like, EV, every marker needs to lock in on this crap. This is not like just some show on peacock. This is like cultural movement here. It is wild.

Gary Vaynerchuk: If you knew like I did, which is why I did all those podcasts, this is not where I went with it for me personally, but if you knew six years ago that. Comedians skewing, right? Were gonna become cultural icons. SEC, frat boy like culture. Well, and you had a brand to sell to 15 to 30 5-year-old males you would f***ing annihilate.

Jay Schwedelson: Yeah. I mean, it's like hawk tuah how the hell? It's like if you knew that that type of person was gonna resonate with America, it's like, yeah, that's what you

Gary Vaynerchuk: lemme, lemme take that down a little bit though. That was a viral moment. Right? We've seen that before, right? Like double rainbow. The, the,

Jay Schwedelson: Coldplay whatever.

Gary Vaynerchuk: yeah. I'm talking about, you know what's so funny? We just did something that might help a ton of marketers, me talking about the overall genre of Southern SEC sorority, frat, uh, comedians, the Theo Bonds, the Schultzes, like, like Shane Gillis, I talked about a half decade movement. That a brand could really, really lean into. You talked about rightfully so. I'm glad you did this, about a micro moment of a trend. Many brands that we work with and friends that I have that don't work with me, but I have a lot of relationships in the industry. They get worried that everything is a hawk tuah thing.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Gary, I don't wanna follow trends 'cause it's over. I'm like, no, no. A hawk tuah moment, to your point, or whatever other moment becomes the seed of an eight year movement. Right. So I'm recapping a six year movement that has happened and you are referencing a viral moment that could have, you know, obviously someone could have jumped in there quickly, done something, but they're two very different things.

Gary Vaynerchuk: But unless you play the hawk tuah a thing and understand the hawk tuah thing. You will never get the long-term thing if you're on the sidelines. Uh, I would, I don't know how to surf or I'm a surfer, but I feel this could be a good analogy. How the f*** are you gonna catch the big wave if you're not in the f***ing water trying to catch up, like waiting for it and catching all the little waves.

Jay Schwedelson: A hundred percent and they all kind of tie into each other.

Gary Vaynerchuk: I'm sorry. Hold on. I got a clip that I need that for my presentation. That, like that. That's it right there. If a brand's scared because they don't wanna, Gary, we don't wanna waste our time jumping on every trend that lasts an hour. Well, what about when it becomes the trend?

Jay Schwedelson: And they marry each other. They're tied to each other,

Gary Vaynerchuk: deeply tied to each other. It's, you know, it's, you gotta eat the ous boosh and the appetizer and then the f***ing main meal, and then f***, let's have some dessert. And then, f***, if it's going well, like, because I'm after dinner drinks, but like, you know, like the duh duh. So like, I don't understand.

Gary Vaynerchuk: I do understand actually it's, we started this podcast this way, the last 70 years of business in marketing land on Madison Avenue. We have used good working media dollars to disguise bad creative, but we couldn't see it 'cause it was predominantly done on television and on billboards and in print. And now we live in an era where we can see it.

Gary Vaynerchuk: And man, does that need an adjustment?

Jay Schwedelson: Wow, that is, um, I think that's so powerful for so many people to hear. So I got one last question. I'm gonna lose my entire audience, but I mean, we grew up, we're same age. Uh, I grew up in Long Island and moved down to Florida, but I know you're a huge Jets fan. Hopefully they have a good year. Last year was brutal.

Gary Vaynerchuk: So let me break this down 'cause now you're just really making me happy. Couple things. I was, I was a senior. Were, did you graduate high school? What year? 94. Me too. So you and I lived the same f***ing life. The basketball gods couldn't have been nicer to us. The Nicks during our high school years were f***ing awesome, and we were building up to this crescendo moment of 94.

Jay Schwedelson: at Ms. G. Amazing.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Couple things. So to answer you directly, it is Patrick Ewing, I will die on this hill. I hate how much Nick fans did not appreciate him enough. To your point, my obsession with Anthony Mason, he made all of us little white guys feel tough.

Jay Schwedelson: That's

Jay Schwedelson: true.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Like I shaved words into the side of my head. That's how much I liked Anthony Mason.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Of course we like Starks, but I'll tell you a steep cut that you're gonna love.

Jay Schwedelson: Oak Tree.

Gary Vaynerchuk: Well, of course, of course. I'm giving you a deep cut. When we got Xavier McDaniels,

Jay Schwedelson: yeah. X-Men.

Gary Vaynerchuk: when that happened, I walked through the halls of my high school like this for weeks. He was gonna be the X factor. I went up to all my f***ing Bandwagon Bulls fans, and they were everywhere. f***ing losers that lived in New York and New Jersey and Long Island who were Bulls fans because they were so insecure and not capable of being winners by themselves. They had to drift off the equity of a team in Chicago to feel like they were a winner. These f***ing f*** faces. I went up to all of them sophomore, junior year and being like, he's the X factor.

Gary Vaynerchuk: We couldn't get over to Jordan Hump. And then, you know, look, game six was devastating, obviously. With Nick's Hornet, uh, uh, rockets, but game seven. So we lose that game. As you know, it was a nip and tuck game, and we could never get there. Right. I cried. I was 7 94. I was 7 I was 18. I was 18 years old. I cried and I mean, cried for 3 straight hours in my bedroom after we lost game seven.

Gary Vaynerchuk: In a, I've only, I mean, I cried like a 7-year-old boy and honestly like even right now, you could see my energy has gone way down. Like it's in the pit, like I feel like I'm there right now. It was devastating.

Jay Schwedelson: it was brutal. I mean. Brutal. I loved that team. I loved that team with a passion. All of 'em. I mean, every, all of 'em I,

Gary Vaynerchuk: Derek Harper, Nando

Jay Schwedelson: oh yeah. Charles Smith, I even loved when Trent Tucker used to like, do the three point contest and crush it. You know it

Gary Vaynerchuk: That was earlier, Trent was those, those earlier guys? Johnny Newman, Strickland, those guys. You know Kenny s Skywalker, Gerald, yes. Gerald Wilkins. Love those guys.

Jay Schwedelson: Uh, anyway, we've, uh, this has been amazing, incredible. Uh, I'm a a bigger fan of you now than even before. Uh, everybody go out there. If you haven't bought already, buy day Trading attention. I'm not just saying this 'cause he is here. I'm telling you, this thing breaks down every kind of content format. It is incredible book day trading attention.

Jay Schwedelson: Go out there and get it. Gary, you are awesome. Thank you for doing this and

Gary Vaynerchuk: was.

Jay Schwedelson: you. Awesome. You too. All right. Cool.