Tracie and Duane Corll join us the podcast today to share the opportunities for churches and ministries to show the love of Christ to those who have a disability. Tracie provides actionable insights and creative ideas and challenges each of us to value each person regardless of their abilities or disabilities as made in the image of God.

Please send your questions for Back Channel with Foth to [email protected]

Greetings, and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be here with our friend Dick Voth on another session of Back Channel with both.

And then we're going to jump into our interview on Indispensable People.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

My Joy.

Just standing on tiptoe to see what you're up to now,.

Dick, got two more.

Two more questions for you as we normally do them in twos.

First one says my coach recommended the book Death of Expertise.

How have you seen trusted experts change over time?

So this is the time for confession.

I have not read the book.

Okay.

Expertise.

All right.

So.

But what I have done is to go online and get the summary.

Okay.

And so I've read that and I've listened to part of a podcast.

The author of that book is Tom Nichols, who's a professor of Russian studies at the Naval War College.

Oh, wow.

And he wrote this book a number of years ago.

And the question is, how have you seen trust in experts change over time?

Well, I've seen it change in the last 30 years this way.

And experts oftentimes are thought to be people who have better information than we do.

That's one small part of what it means to be an expert.

I'll just.

Let me just read you what Tom Nichols says.

The importance and role of specialized knowledge within society.

We have complex, sophisticated society, and it's essential to recognize our own limitations and appreciate the expertise of other people who devoted their existence to learning the particular thing.

So I go to my doctor's office this past week for an annual.

Used to be called Physical, now it's a wellness exam.

I go for my wellness exam and I have a couple of questions and said, you know, I'm having this and this.

And so I just checked it out online.

He said, oh, you went to Dr. Google, did you?

And I said, yes, I did.

Dr. Google is a great competitor to the medical community these days.

And this idea of.

This idea of if I have better information than you do, that then becomes a challenge.

The truth is, expertise is light years more than information.

Most of what there is to know on this planet, I do not know.

Most.

I don't know If I know 1/4 of 1%.

I have no idea.

But, but what happens is either because somebody's trying to make a dollar or because you have somebody who has a reputation of really, really being a good football player and they want to help you with how you breathe or whatever it is, we are suckers for that kind of thing.

So I have seen the, again, the question is how have you seen trust in experts change over time?

I have seen it change pretty significantly.

And I would not like to be a teacher today in any school where they have smartphones in class because you make a statement and they'll immediately go to the web to challenge the statement, whatever it is, because you're not always going to get it right.

Yeah, so that's the, that's my thought on the first question.

Yeah, two thoughts come to mind.

My grandmother used to say doctors buried their mistakes.

And you know, but that was the day when, that was when the, when the experts, you know, doctors, experts.

And then the other thing I think that I'm learning is that when people are specifically in care type things, people are not necessarily looking for a what.

They're looking for who.

I think they do still want to talk to somebody and they, that who can point them to a what.

But in general, I think there's still a level of trust when it comes to that.

So the second question they put in is how does this death of expertise impact the church?

Or does it.

I think it does ex.

I think it does impact the church because, you know, if you're a missionary or a pastor or a leader and you're giving a talk, you know, people can go online and find better talkers than you are, better talkers than I am, that, you know, they just can't.

And that's great on the one hand, but the other, the other side of this is that if we're not careful, we throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Part of this has to do with an anti institutional thrust that's in culture today.

That's, I mean, in our country we see it right, left and center at the political level.

But, but that's also true about institutional, quote, religion, all of that.

But, but I think people who are wise will look at a range of things.

I said, what are you doing?

He said, well, I read five papers a day.

I read the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, Washington Post, LA Times and the Financial Times.

I said, why do you do that?

He said, because they cover a spectrum of thought, and if I read them all, somewhere in the middle is truth.

Wow.

And so I think that that really comes into play in a significant way.

An expert is a.

Is a person who doesn't just have knowledge, but they have experience over time.

And when you talk to those people or read those people, it helps you.

So I had some university students walking there, leaders on university campuses of faith ministry walked into my study one day and looked around on the shelves.

I said, what are you looking for?

And they said, we want to know what old dead guys you read.

Wow.

Because it isn't just the new hot guy or a hot woman, if you will, in terms of thought and so forth that coming out.

So, anyway, I have numbers of other illustrations.

No, but we'll stop at that.

It's a good word.

And I think it's the challenge of the world we live in.

And that culture, as you said, does impact the church when it comes to that.

Death.

Death of expertise.

Dick, always enjoy spending time with you.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview on indispensable people.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started, so here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity podcast.

So excited to be with friends that I saw in Houlihan's restaurant a few weeks ago.

Welcome to the podcast.

Will you take just a few minutes to share a little bit about yourselves before I jump in and ask you some questions?

Sure.

We are Dwayne and Traci Coral.

We're US Missionaries serving people with disabilities across the US and wherever else God will take us.

And we have been doing this for about 11 years.

Have served from the smallest of the little churches to the biggest of whatever that will.

God will open a door and let us walk through.

And never knew that this is where we would end up or where we would be.

Wasn't a part of our plan, but it was certainly part of God's.

And so disability impacts so many people, and it has certainly impacted us and our family.

And that has been a big drive of what we do and why we do.

And we get to live it out and also make sure that the story that we.

That God has given us becomes a piece and a part to help others.

Yeah, for sure.

And so is there a Genesis story, though?

Because, honestly, what you do, it's.

You know, I listen to your podcast, and so it's been something that's been encouragement to me.

It's unique.

You have great insights and Honestly, you have a way of creating insights and then also challenging me to be.

To be more like Christ.

So where's the Genesis story of putting all that together?

Joyne and Tracy, how did you.

Yeah, well, for.

And I'll tend to be the.

He tends to let me take the speaking part, but.

So I don't mean to sound like I'm over talking.

No, he.

Dwayne actually grew up with a mom who worked in the disability field, so she was a bus driver for the county.

And I grew up with family members, with.

I had two family members with cerebral palsy.

And so those stories were familiar to us, but really, again, we had never anticipated that this is where we would be in life.

Dwayne graduated with a business degree.

I have a teaching degree.

We have a child with a disability.

But that was never our ministry kind of fueling.

But I worked for a company where I was a caregiver.

And then I worked as their day program director and after leaving there, went into teaching and had been out of the field for a while.

And the directors of the ministry that we serve under showed up at our church on a Sunday morning saying, hey, we need a team to come serve at this camp that we do every year in Wisconsin.

And Dwayne and I signed up, then I tried to back out because I like my comfortable little box that I like to stick into.

And our youth pastor said, I'll take your kids.

You guys go.

And we ended up at this camp which changed our lives forever.

It was in that week where the director of that ministry sat at a table and said, if you feel like God is calling you to this, this ministry, we need to talk.

And so I tried to talk myself out of that hit to the gut that I feel.

Sure.

And really tried to downplay my qualifications because I have what I thought.

First of all, I. I didn't even grow up in the church, didn't come to know Jesus until I was an adult.

And then moving into a ministry role with.

I mean, I had teaching training, but I didn't have special education training.

I had worked in the field, but no, no certifications, no, you know, no pieces of paper to qualify me for any of the things that I would do.

But God is persistent.

He is.

I stood in the kitchen and I.

Six months after he gave that call, and I said to my husband, if you're in, I'm in.

And then he said, I'm in.

And that was as simple as that.

And we made the phone call and.

And honestly, I made that phone call going they're going to tell me I don't fit the criteria, I don't fit the qualifications, and.

But I will have been obedient, and then we'll move on.

And I made the phone call, and he didn't tell me.

No, he told me yes.

And we took the steps into that.

And really, the.

The podcast and the other pieces of ministry that kind of came along with it is a lot of what we were doing, said, hey, this is a great thing, you should do it.

But there wasn't a lot of equipping or resources.

Yeah.

To do.

And so I just.

I don't have all the answers.

I say that in the podcast.

I don't have all the answers.

I don't know all the things I have attempted to do, more training and growing and learning in this.

But it's about serving a group of people that God has called us to.

And group of people is vast and different, and not because they have disabilities, but because when you put a human being up against a human being, none of us are the same.

Right.

And so you can't lump anyone into one group and say, this is what works.

So if we can keep that conversation going and the pathways open to what God could do or want to do within this group of people, we can get through the barriers and the difficulties that people see in ministry.

Wow.

It's a phenomenal testimony.

Thank you for both being obedient and as you said, God is persistent.

He is persistent.

So the majority of the people listening into this podcast, I would say The Mass, probably 85%, are missionaries, some of them serving locally in the United States, some of them serving internationally and other places.

So what are some key points you would want them to know on how they can receive and serve alongside parents that have children with disabilities?

Well, I would say that it's really a twofold challenge that we've seen with missionaries on the field.

Some of them are touched by disability themselves, whether it's in their children or something like that, and whether they have had those kids on the field and it's something that they're walking through and figuring it out, which that means, then they're walking through a different culture and a different experience in that.

And so I think my biggest heart in that is to say you're not alone, that there are people that can come alongside you and support you, where you're at and what you're working through.

Because serving especially outside of the US can be isolating as a missionary, and so don't be.

If.

If I can say Our.

Our story as parents of a child with disability.

Dwayne can tell you his first experience in accepting that if you want to share a little bit of that.

So has always hit me a little harder because I always blame myself for my son's disability because I grew up.

Having undiagnosed ADHD and a lot of learning disabilities.

There were stories that they would tell about his rambunctiousness as a child and so joking about those kind of things.

And so when we got to the point.

Now, of course, my specialty was early childhood, so I had done a lot of studies in child development, and I knew that something wasn't on course for our son.

And I had approached our pediatrician, and he had kind of pushed back and said, you know, don't compare your children and all that kind of stuff.

And Dwayne was holding on to that.

And at one point, we just had kind of like a breaking moment where I'm, you know, I'm at the bottom of the steps and he's at the top of the steps, and I'm going, there is something going on, and I need you to accept it.

And in that moment, he.

He says, then it's my fault.

And that's not true.

That's not truth in any of that.

He did not, nor would he ever, as a father, choose to put his child in a place of difficulty or struggle.

That was not something that would ever be.

But those old stereotypes that come in, whether they're rooted in that biblical background of that sin nature, and did it.

Did it travel through those generations, you know, whatever it is, or the fault or the shame of, you know, the last 40 years of what serving people with disabilities looks like, we had to bust that.

We had to break through that, and we had to come and stand on an understanding of God has a different story to tell through every single person.

He is sovereign.

He knows exactly what he's doing.

And if he has allowed something, then he has purpose in it.

And so there's a story that he wants to tell through our family, and that's going to look like our different talents and abilities and disabilities that come across, and that will be so that we can do his work and his will and that he can be glorified through it.

And so I would say that is a big thing in standing in a missionary, especially in other cultures where that shame culture of disability is so massive.

So having that encouragement and that strong group of understanding people supporting you.

And we have connected with missionaries who have just emailed us and said, this is where we're at, this is what we're dealing with.

How can we.

And some of that is just support and someone to hear you and someone to listen to you, not to have all the answers.

But the other side of that is in their work and in their serving.

And I would say the biggest piece of disability ministry is honestly having a strong scriptural foundational root.

You can't tell people or treat people in a way that is Christ.

Like, if you don't know what Christ says about them.

And that's where we go back to that term indispensable people, which is rooted in First Corinthians 12, where Paul is talking about the parts of the body.

And there's a piece of that scripture in there that says those that seem the weakest are actually indispensable.

Right.

The.

The world looks at people with disabilities as a burden, as too much, as hard, as difficult.

But God says that they're indispensable.

Indispensable.

And so when you have that scriptural root of what God says about his people, then your ability to serve them and see them as a co labor in Christ.

Yeah.

Completely changes.

Well, powerful word.

Powerful word for sure.

And that's one of the reasons I wanted to have you on the podcast.

You're passionate about this.

And, and it, and it, it helps us.

It helps us.

And so one of the things you've talked, we talked a little bit about parents and receiving, but also, and you mentioned a little bit.

But if you have anything more, you have a team member that comes to join your team that has a disability.

You mentioned some of the things that sometimes we can label somebody a lot or more.

It takes a lot of effort.

Any words of wisdom for somebody that joining the team or maybe their person on the team that has a disability to interact with others so that you can have a team approach and that we see each other, just as you said, from a scriptural perspective, as the body of Christ.

So is that a fair question?

Absolutely.

Here's probably one of the number one things that we really try to push across when it comes to looking at people with disabilities, serving with people with disabilities.

It should not come from a place of pity.

Okay.

And if we pity will block someone's purpose, it will make us see them as less than, but also it will make us believe that we can put them in positions that they should not be in.

Okay.

So for example, on a Sunday morning, if I'm part of the church, one place you're not going to find me is on the worship Team.

Why?

Because I can't sing.

I sound terrible.

Okay.

So they're not going to put me in that place because that's not my gift, that's not my talent.

And it's the same thing with people with disabilities.

You are going to.

What do we do in ministry?

Right.

We look for those gifts and those talents so that people can be placed specifically where they belong in the body of Christ.

And that doesn't mean that, you know, Pastor so.

And so is late every time, you know, she.

That's part of her personality and sometimes that happens.

Or this person tends to do this, or this person is really person focused, but they're not task focused.

Right.

So our talents and abilities come with deficits as well, but also in understanding that some of those deficits are not something that they can control, which is maybe transportation or, you know, if they have more of a fragile medical condition, those kinds of things.

So that's where compassion comes in and we can come alongside them and those kind of things.

So it's a, it's a balance of understanding.

We don't put people in places where they don't belong.

Right.

Where their talents and their gifts can't be highlighted.

But we also don't completely remove someone from a team because there's a deficit in another area.

And that's why we come together as teams.

Right?

Yeah.

Because we all don't have all the parts and all the pieces, for sure.

We definitely don't have all the parts and the pieces, that's for sure.

And we do.

We.

Yeah, we.

We.

We need each other.

That, that kind of leads me to my next question for you about words, meaning a lot of.

And you share about this on the podcast, some guidance on what words can help someone with a disability feel valued.

How can we help people feel valued in our words?

Because I.

You mentioned earlier, somewhat earlier on that it's.

Sometimes it's.

You just don't know what to say, so then you say the wrong thing or you don't say anything at all.

You know, I mean, and so, and I think, and I'm not trying to make excuses for people, I just, I do think sometimes people don't know what to say.

They.

I do think they.

I do think in general, people want to say.

Want to be kind, but they don't know what to say.

So can you help us with wording?

I'm beating around the bush, but how do we, in our words, express value and not be silent, but also not put our foot in our mouth every time we try to Be kind and tender hearted.

And we just mess it up every time.

So the worst, best answer is there's really no answer.

Okay.

It used to be person first language used to be the way to go.

Right.

We refer to the person and then their disability.

Right.

But now we live in.

There's like a pendulum switch happening where it goes, autism is a part of me, so I want to be called autistic.

Okay.

But neither of those terms really apply to everybody.

Everyone really has very differing ways to think about that.

So the golden rule is really the way to go.

Right.

But also in ministry, I'm not in a school situation and I'm not in a medical situation that I need to refer to that person by their disability.

Right.

That's not my biggest concern.

That's not my piece.

Now I can ask them things like, hey, tell me about your story, tell me about your life, tell me, you know, different ways to get to know them.

And then I can learn from them how they refer to themselves or how they speak about them.

And as you build relationship, you can ask those direct questions.

How do you feel about first language?

How do you feel about that?

I do stand closer on the person first language.

If we have to refer to someone in regards to their disability simply because there is no identifier or definer of a person that will fully encompass who they are.

A label that you give someone.

If I asked you right now, give me an adjective that fully describes you, you would struggle to find just one because you're not always just that one thing.

Sure.

And so the label does that.

Right.

It gives us a stereotype.

But the vastness of disability is beyond anything that we could just boil down into something simple.

So when you refer to.

If I said Dwayne and he had down syndrome, I would say, so my friend Dwayne who has down syndrome, that would be person first language.

Now that again, I go back to.

In a ministry context, it's unnecessary.

Right now, in a serving context, when you need information about that person, the diagnosis might give you an avenue of understanding, understanding.

But in the end, you're going to ask questions like, what helps them feel comfortable?

What.

What are some triggers they might experience?

What are, what are, you know, some, some things?

Where are there certain people that they're comfortable around?

You know, those kinds of questions which really don't have to do specifically with their disability.

So in the sense of the name of it, the title of it.

Sure.

So you're going to need to, we say the most powerful tool when it comes to disability Ministry is getting to know that person.

And that's something that, you know, anytime you meet someone or you interact with someone for the first time, you're watching their body movements.

You're watching that body language, and you're adjusting yourself based on that.

And really what it is is giving yourself permission to go, okay, my common sense is going to play a whole lot into this, and I'm just going to go with that.

If I notice that they step back, I'm going to give them a little bit more personal space.

If they burrow their brow, I'm going to know, maybe I need to restate that question in a different way.

Those kinds of things.

So it's less about the disability and more about just getting to know that person.

And I think once you rem that, that takes away the fear of the unknown.

We just did a big training here in Ohio just this weekend, and I told the story of when I first came home from the hospital with COVID I had been on a ventilator for 14 days or nine days.

I was in the hospital for 14.

And when I came home, I lost my ability to speak, you know, whether it was muscle atrophy or whatever.

And my family, I would.

I knew in my mind what I was trying to say, but I couldn't get it to come out.

And so I would mouth it, and it would come out weird, and they would look at me like I was a stranger.

But there was one.

One of my friends had come over, and she was kind of helping him.

She understood everything that I was saying, and I was.

And I use that example to say in that moment, my.

My family was so overwhelmed by the conditions in the state that I was in that they couldn't see me.

And that's what we tend to do with people with disabilities.

Right.

We're overwhelmed by the thought of what their disability is or might mean to this situation, that we don't see the person.

And so when we choose to see the person, that allows us to have that much more natural interaction.

Yeah, I love it.

I love it.

And getting to know.

Ask questions.

The other thing you said comes natural, but I don't know, that's.

You know, I think it comes really natural for you, and I think that's why I get.

I like learning from you, because it's not.

I don't know if it's natural for me.

You know, I think I'm a naturally caring person, but there is a hesitancy, and I think if I had to look back.

Yeah.

Since the first time we Met in Ohio.

I've just looked back over my life and I think if I'm truly honest, probably.

I didn't say I probably withdrew because I was afraid I was going to do the wrong thing.

You know, I mean, I thought like, well, doing nothing was better than messing up.

And that was my concern.

Does that make sense?

I'm an introvert, so I'm not the first person that's going to reach out to the next person.

Yeah, Dwayne is.

Yeah.

He doesn't care who you are.

If he meets you in the line at the grocery store, you're, you're going to have a chat.

I'm going to be like, you're busy and you don't want to be bothered by me, so I'm just going to exit left.

So I actually have to force myself to enter into those conversations.

Dwayne is just sometimes it's a personality piece too.

And so what I always say.

So there's a statistic that exists that says that over 90% of pastors believe that their churches are disability friendly, but only 20% of families actually say that.

That's true.

Wow.

And here's where this next piece comes in.

It's not because they're standing at their door holding people out.

Right.

But it's an intentional choice to move towards them.

Yeah.

And that's really where that comes in.

In that.

Because here it's really truly the fear of the unknown.

Right?

Sure.

It's the fear of the unknown.

And people, people, as long as they know that you care, that's what really matters to them.

You don't have to get it.

All right.

And you'll hear parents say.

I'll hear parents of children of 30, 40 year old individuals with disabilities use terms.

And I'll go, they said what they called it.

No, we don't say that.

Yeah.

So you're, you're, you know, it's.

I would, I would rather the accidental.

Yeah.

Say than, than to, to shut them out.

Yeah, No, I appreciate that.

And you're giving, you've helped.

Giving me language to.

Hopefully I. Prayerfully that I'm getting better and engaging rather than withdrawing and so appreciate it.

So next question I have for you.

So what does it mean to make, you know, organizationally we're trying to increase gospel access.

So what does it look like to increase gospel access for those with disabilities?

Now that's a big.

We could do a whole podcast on that.

I know, but, but just in kind of a, A shorter version of that podcast.

So understanding that accessibility comes in multiple forms.

It's not just physical, right.

Which is the easy, like is there a ramp?

Can they get in the building?

Can they be a part of things?

But it's the next two pieces that are really going to change everything.

It's the social.

Can they actually be included in the church?

Can people see them as peers?

Can people see them as co laborers?

Right.

So when you're welcome and included, that access changes because what are the, what are the biggest connections to the gospel that you make?

It's through relationships, right?

That's how discipleship happens.

So and then the next piece to that, so you have the physical access.

They have to be able to get in the buildings.

They have to be able to hear, experience, see, receive those kinds of things.

Then they have to be able to be included, to be accepted, to be welcomed there.

But then the last piece is the spiritual accessibility.

Which do we believe first of all that they can receive the gospel?

Do we choose to disciple?

And can we choose to disciple in ways that they will be able to learn?

And then do we believe that God has given them gifts and talents where they can serve and be that co laborer in Christ?

So, so it's really that threefold mission of accessibility through the physical, the social and the spirit.

And do I think it would be, my assumption would be sometimes people struggle with one of those three maybe more than the other.

Is that, does that make sense?

Yeah.

So we have facilities that are old and it's very costly to make changes to your building.

So that sometimes is difficult or to even know where to go or what to start with.

So we had a discussion this weekend at this training that we had just done.

And the pastor said they had two bathrooms.

They're right next to each other.

And he said the women's is accessible and the men's is not.

So if a man using a wheelchair is there, he has to go into the women's restroom.

And so he was like, so is that okay?

And I said, well, first of all, men care a little bit less than women do, but there's some setup that would have to occur to make that happen.

But then I said to him, what if you just changed both of those bathrooms into family restrooms and they didn't have designations?

You go in, you lock the door, you use it and you come out.

They're one use bathrooms.

Sure.

So it's just going, okay, so here's your problem.

Yeah.

And what is the best solution for what you have?

So it's going, you know, let's be reasonable.

About what that looks like.

And then the next.

The, the social piece really comes in a lot of training and that's some of the things that we do.

It comes with training and it comes with being exposed.

Right.

You have.

It's hard to understand something you've never been a part of or interacted with or.

So just.

Just being around people with disabilities, having that access to them, to see them, to know them, to see that they can really be peers to you, they can really be friends, they can be a part of the teams that you do, that kind of thing.

But.

But also along with that, we do like disability awareness trainings.

This is also a great scriptural piece of understanding how we should look at people with disabilities, all of those kinds of things.

But the last piece, the discipleship piece, comes with just walking alongside of someone, seeing how they understand, how they learn.

Are they a more visual person?

Do they need repetitive things?

Do they need to put their hands to something to understand it?

Do they need the concrete language?

You know, different things like that.

And a lot of times, with a few tweaks to the way that we do things already, we really can reach more people and disciple them.

Wow.

I love it.

And I love the, the.

We serve a creative God.

And as his sons and daughters, recognizing just the solution, you shared with the bathroom.

Right?

That's a creative solution to a challenge that's there.

It took creativity, but at the same time it took down those maybe distinctions of a man not wanting to come to church because he didn't necessarily want.

And I'll be honest, as a man, I wouldn't want necessarily going to the female's bathroom either.

It just.

We don't care.

But it also could be uncomfortable.

Right.

And if you already, if you have a disability and maybe you don't want to stick, I don't know, I just think it'd be challenging to then to have to do that.

So.

But I love, love and becomes.

Even if you are a man who has no intellectual disability and understands the eyes that are looking at you, when you're going into that rush, it brings a whole nother realm of feelings when you have to use something that wasn't meant for you.

Yeah.

100.

You said it a lot more eloquently.

I was going to try and then I thought, I'm going to say this the wrong way, so I'll just avoid saying it.

But you, you said it a lot more eloquently than I could have.

You know, as we've had the conversation, I've listened to Your podcast, the school I went to elementary school and I don't know, I'm finding that that was not as common in telling you my age.

So the early 80s, but our classes were not separated.

So the people that had disabilities, kindergarten through eighth grade, we were all together.

There was not a difference.

There was some, maybe a special class that people would.

And actually it was special classes for all of us.

But it did give me an understanding and, and we got.

You see a lot.

Had the opportunity to see a lot of the similarities.

The challenge was then from 8th grade on there was a separation and then it.

In my.

I saw my life kind of going in different directions.

You know, I mean, and so that commonality that took place between K through 8th grade, there was relationships and made sense, but then it separated and then.

Anyway, so that's, that's more Aaron's issues than broader issues.

But it's, it's made me really think and reflect on it.

So.

So I got one, one or two more questions for you.

I actually have more, but I don't think we'll get through them all today.

So one of the things, autism and literal language.

Any communication tips when it comes to.

Autism and literal language, Stay as concrete as you can.

We live in an abstract world.

We.

Sarcasm is a, it's a way of language.

We use idioms and all, all of the things.

Right.

That's how we communicate.

But those things don't communicate well to someone who needs to, to hear and understand in the concrete.

So you say is what you mean.

I'm trying to think of an example and I, I'm lost for, for the thought at the moment.

But just.

You just have to mean what you say.

Yeah.

And be able to follow up with an explanation if needed.

But also understand that if you did say something that was somewhat abstract, we can't get frustrated with the person who received it the way you said it.

Yeah.

My mom used to.

People get mad.

She'd say go fly.

They need to go fly kite.

Right.

That would be something you're not.

So it wouldn't be.

We're not telling people to go fly a kite because they're gonna, they're looking for it.

Sure.

Yeah.

And so.

And so.

Yeah.

So you're.

So it's that.

That being intentional with what you say is a literal language so that it's not misinterpreted.

Is that.

Would that be correct?

Yes.

And that's going to really apply especially to direction giving.

So you know, think if you're in a kids church or a Youth setting.

Right.

And you're telling the kids to go off and do these certain things.

You want to make sure that that language is very, very concrete so that they can receive those directions.

Because also a lot of the individuals that you're going to encounter also know when they don't get it right.

Sometimes that can be a barrier to them growing in themselves and who Christ sees them as, because they're also protecting the lack of intelligence that they might have felt.

So we can kind of clear that up on and help that that becomes a better setting for them.

Yeah.

Made me think of literal language.

And my mom.

Well, my dad used to.

We were doing something.

He'd say, do something even if it's wrong.

And.

And so my mom used.

Don't say that.

Don't they.

She's like, yeah.

He's like, they just need to do something.

She's like, well, we don't want you to do the wrong thing.

We want them to do the right thing.

So he's like, well, they just need to.

Need to do something.

So anyway, one.

One or two more questions for you.

I guess the big question is, you're the expert in this area.

You've poured a lot of life and your passion into this.

Is there a question that I should have asked that I didn't ask or that would been better to ask that I didn't.

So let's go with that one.

Well, I definitely wouldn't call myself an expert.

I have.

There's been a.

Here's how you get to a status of knowing a little bit more than someone else.

You make a lot of really bad mistakes and you go, okay, and this is how we're going to fix it so we don't ever do that again.

I would say, oh, goodness, what's something you think?

I thought through this, but I thought maybe.

Maybe as we talked, things would come up.

Yeah,.

Here is my.

Maybe not a question to ask, but maybe a.

The biggest piece of advice I could give anyone in interacting with someone with a disability.

Sure, that'd be great.

See the men as a human.

The message that I shared this past weekend.

We had a room full of oranges and orange decorations because there was a quote that I had read that said, what do you get when you squeeze an orange?

You get orange juice.

So what do you get when you have a human created in the image of God?

Yeah.

A human who should reflect God's character, His, everything.

And we can only do that if we are able to share that gospel with them and if we see them as less than or see them as not able to be apart of the body of Christ, then we won't see them as humans.

And that barrier is probably the biggest, the biggest struggle that, that we face in this ministry is just being able to see people as the creation of God, the chosen creation of God that was knitted together, that he calls wonderfully made and says that they are indispensable.

Wow.

Good word.

One last question and then I'm going to ask you to pray.

Any words of encouragement for parents that are listening in that maybe they have a son or daughter with a disability?

Any just words of encouragement for them?

Maybe it's a grandparent.

Maybe there's a grandparent listening in too.

There's grandparents that listen in.

Grandparents, parents, aunts, uncles, somebody who's closely close to somebody with a disability.

Just any words of encouragement for them?

My, I would say know who God says they are.

Know that they were created with plans and purposes for their life.

None of it is wasted.

That doesn't take away or distract from the struggles and the difficulties that you have to trudge through each day.

But know that it is worth it because God saw it fit to have them here.

And if I could leave you with a short testimony to encourage that point.

There is a girl named Alicia that I met at that first camp, that I was caregiving at, that everything changed for us.

And she shared her testimony with me.

She was born with cerebral palsy.

Her doctor basically told her parents put her in a corner, snuck an amount to much.

Don't try to put your efforts into this child.

She'll be a burden.

Alicia is now a grown woman who is graduated from college with a journalism degree.

She is also married.

She uses a wheelchair.

She has to be fed, dressed, bathed by someone else who cares for her.

But she lives a life that her testimony speaks of volumes.

And there are people in the cerebral palsy community that have questioned her in her relationship with God.

And she says that they say to her that they've said to her, if your God is real, then why won't he heal you?

And her response had been to them he will.

And it might be someday when I stand up on this earth out of my wheelchair, or it might be the day that I walk into heaven.

But God has a story to tell through my life and I'm gonna let him tell it.

Wow.

So we serve a God who is bigger than our everydays.

Yeah.

Who understands our ins and our outs.

That doesn't negate the troubles and the difficulties that you walk through each day.

But it does say that if God saw it fit to happen, then he has a plan and a purpose in it.

Yeah, powerful.

Powerful.

Will you pray for us today?

Absolutely.

Dear Lord Jesus, we just thank you.

We thank you for everyone that is listening, Lord, I ask that you would just speak to their hearts and let this information land on them.

Not because, because of anything, except to make you known, to make you known in ways that people have never dreamed about.

And Lord, we have seen you and watched you move in the lives of people with disabilities and their families and we have no doubt that you will continue to do that.

Lord, we thank you for this opportunity.

We thank you for Aaron in this podcast.

Lord, I pray that you would bless it and make it go further for your kingdom's sake.

Lord, bless these listeners in Jesus name.

Amen.

Amen.