In North America, Chinese food has changed soooo much over the last thirty years. Let's talk about what's gone on, from Sweet And Sour Pork to the crazy-good range of Szechwan food available now.

We're Bruce Weinstein & Mark Scarbrough. We've written over three dozen cookbooks and this is our podcast about that passion. We've developed tens of thousands of original recipes in our career and even ghost-written several cookbooks for celebrities.

Thanks for being on this journey with us. Here are the segments for this episode of COOKING WITH BRUCE & MARK:

[01:11] Our one-minute cooking tip: Watch out for hidden caffeine in your food.

[03:38] What’s happened to Chinese food in North America? Let's talk about the incredibly changed landscape of Chinese cooking, from the once-favorite chop suey to today's incredible range of dishes at regional Chinese restaurants in North America.

[23:00] What’s making us happy in food this week: Korean rice cake carbonara and osso buco.

Hey, I'm Bruce Weinstein, and this is the podcast

2

Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

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Mark: And I'm Mark Scarborough.

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And we're approaching the holidays here

in North America and in parts of Europe,

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so we're not going to talk about that.

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Bruce: You're not going

to tell us what to do?

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Mark: We're the only food podcast right

now that's not all up into Thanksgiving,

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but we will get back up into Thanksgiving

next time around, probably, I guess.

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Bruce writes these episodes,

so I'm not sure, but I hope so.

10

We were on beverages for the holidays a

couple weeks ago, but now we're going to

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be instead on something that's lurking

in your food that you may not know about.

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You don't have to be scared about it.

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You just have.

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to know about it.

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We're going to tell you that in the one

minute cooking tip, then we're going to

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talk about Chinese food and particularly

Chinese food in North America.

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I want to talk to you about kind of

the ways it has changed in the last

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25 years, what's happened to it.

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It's extremely interesting story about

globalization and about an increasing

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awareness of the world around us.

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And finally, as always, we'll end with

what's making us happy and food this week.

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So let's get started.

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Bruce: Our one minute cooking tip.

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Be careful of hidden

caffeine in your food.

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Yeah, this is a kicker.

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Kombucha, everyone's drinking kombucha

these days, often made from fermented

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teas, and therefore contains caffeine,

so if you're like someone who says,

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I don't drink kombucha, Coffee or

tea after three in the afternoon,

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but you have a big glass of kombucha,

you're probably getting caffeine

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Mark: and another hidden source

of caffeine and this came as a big

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surprise to me are Protein bars protein

bars up all sorts often include a

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heavy hit of For example, the Cliff

chocolate chip cookie dough flavored

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protein bars that are very popular

have 65 milligrams of caffeine in it.

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That's like getting an espresso shot.

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It

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Bruce: is.

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And even their standard chocolate

chip protein bar has chocolate

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and chocolate has caffeine, right?

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I mean, I don't know.

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An ounce of dark chocolate's got 12 grams.

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That's not nothing.

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Mark: That's not nothing.

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It's not a lot, but it's not nothing.

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And you should just be really aware of

the caffeine level, particularly if you

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have cardiac or respiratory issues, you

have allergies, any of these things,

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which speed up production of mucus and

other things in the body and speed up

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heart rate, just know that caffeine lurks

around the corner in a lot of things.

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I'm still always surprised.

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And now it's.

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We're going over one minute.

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I'm always surprised about the number

of people who don't know that dark,

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soft drinks like Coca Cola and Dr.

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Pepper and those kind of

things have caffeine in them.

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Oh,

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Bruce: and Mountain Dew and even those.

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I'm

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Mark: always shocked by people who

don't know those have caffeine in them.

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Bruce: And all they have to do

is go to the store and look at

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the shelves where it's, Caffeine

free Coke, caffeine free Dr.

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Pepper.

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I know, but you They wouldn't be

selling that if there wasn't caffeine.

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But you say

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Mark: that and somebody

still doesn't really know.

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They're like, what, Dr.

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Pepper has caffeine?

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And you're like, well, then

why do they sell caffeine free?

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And, um, just be careful.

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If you've got, especially, as

I say, cardiac or pulmonary

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sensitivities, just be careful

about how much caffeine you have.

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You don't have to freak

out, but just be aware.

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of what you're eating.

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Okay, before we get to the next segment

about Chinese food in North America

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on our podcast, uh, let me just say

that we really appreciate your being a

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part of us and we would love it if you

could write us a review on any podcast

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platform or just rate the podcast.

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We'd like to stay up to date.

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Unsponsored because we don't want

to be at the behest of anyone.

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So you're doing that helps us stay

in the analytics, which keeps the

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podcast fresh, which means that we can

actually continue on without a sponsor.

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So thanks for doing that.

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Okay up next What has happened

to Chinese food in the last

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40 50 years in North America?

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Bruce: If you've listened to more than

a few episodes of this podcast You know

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that I, Bruce, make a lot of Chinese food.

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Mark (2): Right.

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Bruce: And I have interviewed

quite a few Chinese chefs

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and Chinese cookbook authors.

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And I've always had a, not even

a love hate, I've had a love,

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love, love relationship with

Chinese food since I was a child.

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Mark: And let me just, Mao, the

writer, is going to add to that.

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offer a caveat before we launch

into this larger discussion.

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And it's a caveat that you may

be a little uncomfortable with.

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I mean, you may be impatient with my

saying this, but I just want to say

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that saying the term Chinese food is

a bit racialist because we should be

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saying food from China because there

isn't such a thing as Chinese food.

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When You say that you're lumping many

different culinary traditions under

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a label, in fact, a political label

of a political landscape, China.

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And we have many ethnic groups,

many different kinds of Chinese

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food produced, not only in China,

but in North America, in Europe.

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So Chinese food has a

little bit of a racist.

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edge to it.

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And don't be impatient

with me for saying that.

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I think it's really important to

be sensitive to that and say, we're

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using a kind of shorthand term.

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I just used it a minute

ago in what I was saying.

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We're using a shorthand term, but it's

not necessarily a great short term.

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It used to be.

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And this is the big change.

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Once upon a time when we were little.

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Chinese food meant something and

it meant a kind of conglomeration

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of American Chinese food.

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Bruce: Now, when I was a kid, one

of my favorite activities when my

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parents said we were going to go

down to Chinatown and have dinner.

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Made me so happy and so excited

because yes, there was a decent

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Chinese food restaurant near us in

Queens where I grew up outside of

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Manhattan Kings on Horace Harding

Expressway by Springfield Boulevard

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and the food all came on those little

stainless steel stands with the lids.

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And on the table was hot mustard and duck

sauce and a little fried crispy things.

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My mother wouldn't let

me touch the hot mustard.

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She always was afraid I was going

to get into the hot mustard.

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Oh my goodness, we ordered the ribs

and dipped them in that hot mustard.

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But every now and then, my parents

would say, let's drive into

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the city and go to Chinatown.

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And it was always delicious.

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Now a battle, because my parents

loved Cantonese style Chinese food.

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Shrimp and lobster sauce.

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They liked shrimp and lobster sauce.

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My father loved chicken chow mein.

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Oh, there you go.

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They liked things, you

know, chicken almond ding.

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They li Oh!

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Mm hmm.

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Ooh!

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Mark: Ooh!

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That's what it was called.

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Racist.

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That's what it was called.

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Oh, Chicken Almond Ding.

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That's as bad as The King and I.

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That is terrible.

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Okay, do go on.

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Well,

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Bruce: it's not as bad as some

things, but it's pretty bad.

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Mark: Uh, yeah.

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Okay, do go on.

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Bruce: I wanted to go to the Sichuan

restaurants that were down the street,

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and I wanted the spicy things, and I

wanted the stir fries with beef and

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chilies, and they were like, Nope.

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So I got lots and lots and lots of

Cantonese food when I was a kid.

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What was your Chinese

food experience like?

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Well, I think I had

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Mark: the very typical

North American experience.

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I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and we

went down to this place, Yee's, which

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was down on Lemon Avenue a million

years ago, if you know Dallas.

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And Yee's was the typical egg foo young,

um, uh, you know, sweet and sour pork with

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the pineapple or the maraschino cherries.

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Yee's.

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Um, which I listen as a kid, I loved, I

thought getting sweet and sour pork in

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the no sour, all sweet sauce with the

maraschino cherries was so sophisticated.

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It looked sophisticated.

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Did they serve it in

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Bruce: a pineapple

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Mark: half?

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No, they served it in those, uh, those

silver pedestal things with the domes and

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they would put it all down and lift it.

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the domes all at once.

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And I should say that in typical

fashion, and I think this was a more U.

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S.

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Canadian rather than New York fashion,

we each ordered a dish and ate our dish.

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We did not share Chinese food.

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I know.

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Bruce: When Mark first told

me that, that's what they did.

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I was dumbfounded.

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Mark: And I should tell you that, uh, of

course I was ever the adventurous kid.

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And the fact first time I ordered

Mushu pork, my parents freaked out

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because they didn't know what it was.

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And they were like, why are you ordering?

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And then it came with the

pancakes and all this stuff.

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And I thought I was just,

Oh, I was, I mean, I might as

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well have been Josh like war.

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I was the height of sophistication, you

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Bruce: know, but it was, it was exotic and

it was different and it was sophisticated.

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Mark (2): It's that exotic thing

that has the racialist air to it.

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It does.

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I know.

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It's

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Bruce: gross.

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I continued to have this love

affair with Chinese food.

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I lived in Brooklyn in the

early eighties before Brooklyn

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gentrified in a neighborhood

that I was terrified to live in.

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I would run from the garage where I

parked my car to my apartment hoping

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like I didn't get stabbed to death.

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I mean, it was not a fun place and there

was one Chinese takeout place and it was

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called Sky star, but the s was burned out

from the sign, so it was sky, tar and when

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you could to order fruit from sky tar.

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It was, you know, it, it was not very, um,

what I would call contemporary, authentic.

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It wasn't trying to do

anything, so I decided.

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I had to do this myself.

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I had to learn.

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Didn't you, wait,

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Mark: so just for people who didn't grow

up in this time and in New York, so you

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had to order through Plexiglas, right?

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In

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Bruce: this neighborhood, it was so

bad that they had a giant Plexiglas

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turntable, and you spoke through holes in

it, and then you would put your Not the

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Mark: holes in the turntable,

the holes in the Plexiglas wall.

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Yep, so

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Bruce: you could talk to them.

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And then you'd put your money on

the turntable, they would turn it,

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so now the money's on the inside.

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Then they would put the bag of

food and turn it back to you.

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Wow.

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Wow.

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Because otherwise they were afraid.

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It was not a safe neighborhood.

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Mark: And let me say that Yee's, where

I went in Dallas, included a doorman

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who opened the front door for you.

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So it was a very different experience.

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What ethnicity was that doorman?

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I don't

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Bruce: know.

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Mark: I don't know.

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But, um, it, it was up for us.

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Chinese food was an up experience.

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Well,

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Bruce: it was up because we got to go out.

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But then I think I was about eight.

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18, when I decided I had to learn

how to cook Chinese food, I had

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already started going to chef school.

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I was back at home and I wanted to

learn and there was a guy, famous,

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famous Chinese chef, Norman Weinstein.

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Mark: So, so bad, so bad, go on.

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No

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Bruce: relation to me.

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And he actually taught classes

at the new school in Manhattan,

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and he did cooking classes.

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And I went and took a Sichuan class

from him, and he taught me how to make

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cold sliced pork and garlic sauce.

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And he told me how to That's getting more

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Mark (2): fancy.

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Bruce: He told me how

to make tangerine beef.

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Oh.

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And one day, he brought it home.

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whole duck and we did a deep fried duck

and he made all these dipping sauces and

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the point of this story is that because

of that deep fried duck and him showing us

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how to eat the web feet and the head and

everything else, I became a vegetarian.

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And that lasted three hours.

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Mark: Yeah, that's not my experience

with Chinese food, but you can see right

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there that Chinese food is starting to

not become Chinese food It's starting to

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become what it is Which is a collection

of dishes from again from various ethnic

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and regional groups and you can already

hear it cold slice work in garlic sauce.

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It's starting to move away from

this, uh, for lack of a better

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word, panda express kind of Chinese

food, where it's an amalgamation of

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basically sweet, deep fried food.

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And I think that that's

really important to see.

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In fact, by the time I met Bruce in 96.

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I have been to China.

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I traveled around rural China even, and

I had seen a lot of Chinese cooking.

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And um, when we met, I was much

more conversant in Chinese food.

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I think I was more conversant even

than Bruce who had taken classes on it,

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because I was I introduced him to dim

sum, and I introduced him to congee,

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and I showed you what these things were.

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If you don't know about

congee, it's a rice porridge.

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You overcook the rice until it's

very, very soft and almost mushy,

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and add lots of broth or water to it.

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So it's like a rice porridge, and then

you add savory things to it, like pepper.

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Peanuts and scallions, this kind of

thing is often served for breakfast.

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I love congee with an egg in it.

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I

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Bruce: love it.

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It could be served with protein too.

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Fish can be put into it.

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Shrimp can be put into it.

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And there was a restaurant Mark and I

found on Mott Street in New York and

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they had the most delicious congee and

they had All the roast meats hanging in

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the window and we would go down there.

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Oh, probably every weekend,

just eat congee and

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Mark: chopped up roast pork.

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But I will say that what I now know

about Chinese food, because again,

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this has been a long educational

process away from sweet and sour pork.

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And what I know about it now is that

even back then, when I moved in with you

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in the mid nineties in New York City,

Chinatown still catered a great deal

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to the white patronage and the Chinese

food that would be served in Chinatown.

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Now, I'm sure that Chinese people got

a separate menu and all that kind of

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stuff, but that was served to us on our

menu was very much almost the standard

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stuff, but maybe elevated just a tad.

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I mean, the first time I took Bruce

to dim sum, I'm going to tell a story

288

that we sat down at this big table

at this huge dim sum parlor in New

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York city, which I lied found and

I was like, Oh, we have to try it.

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And he's like, what is dim sum?

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The New Yorker?

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What is dim sum?

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I'm like.

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Trust me.

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You want to do this.

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So we went and we had the whole thing

with the rolling carts and all, but

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we sat at the table and there were,

you know, 12 seats at a round table

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and there's just the two of us and

there's like other families at this

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big table because you're just catching

food off the carts as they go by.

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And Bruce reached across the

table and grabbed one of their

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teapots and poured tea in his.

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Bruce: Oh, God, that's their

tea, but I know that Chinese food

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is often a communal activity.

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This

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Mark: is where your

upbringing led you astray.

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It is not everything

on the table is yours.

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That was their tea in

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Bruce: there.

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I wasn't going to reach for their food,

but I thought the tea was fair game.

310

Oh my gosh.

311

Um, okay.

312

But the thing was, They got

different tea than we did.

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Yes, they did.

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They had beautiful black Oolong

tea and they gave, they gave the

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two white boys here jasmine tea.

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They did.

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And you

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Mark: had that, this is one of the

first times we kind of started to

319

understand that there was something

different for Chinese people in a lot

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of North American Chinese restaurants.

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And we kind of started to notice this.

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Now we're talking toward

the late nineties.

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And then all of a sudden this revelation

happened and it happened in a restaurant

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that was weirdly just right across

the street from where we live, where

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Bruce: were we lucky?

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Mark: I know it's really weird.

327

And so this restaurant advertised

itself as a restaurant that.

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only had one menu and that was its

gimmick and it was a good gimmick.

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In other words, only one menu for

Chinese people and non Chinese people.

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Cause

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Bruce: it was finally

like this hidden secret.

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Cause in New York, as Mark said, it,

people who, you know, looked like they

333

were from China or were culturally Chinese

were handed a different menu, right?

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Or

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Mark: often ordered without,

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Bruce: or ordered without a menu.

337

So there were two sets of

cooking going on in the kitchen.

338

And there was the Chinese

food for the white audience.

339

And then there was a Chinese

food for the Asian audience.

340

Again, you can't even

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Mark: now call that Chinese food.

342

There was a

343

regional

344

set

345

of dishes

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for ethnic Chinese.

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Bruce: And this restaurant decided

it was Grand Sichuan International.

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It was.

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And they decided there will be one menu.

350

And it was very funny.

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When they came out with this one

menu, Oh, they got a lot of press.

352

The New York Times wrote about them.

353

The New York Magazine.

354

Everybody was writing

about this revolution.

355

Mark: And the dishes were so odd.

356

to most New Yorkers, even that they came

and sat down on your table, a giant three

357

ring binder that explained every dish.

358

There was a photograph

359

Bruce: and a couple of sentences is not a

couple of paragraphs of what the dish was

360

Mark: and how it was made, you

know, because literally don't

361

gross out and turn our podcast off.

362

But literally they were serving

like sliced sea cucumber.

363

They were selling all

kinds of entrails and.

364

Inards and organs and

intestines and tendons

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Bruce: even more shocking than that

was they had a section on the menu

366

for chicken dishes and live chicken

dishes when you ordered a dish

367

they would they had chickens in the

basement and they would cook kill a

368

chicken to make that dish for you.

369

Mark: And it was, it said something

like, like a lot, like it was like a

370

45 minute process for a live kill dish.

371

Um, and all of this says that Chinese

food was becoming not Chinese food.

372

It was becoming what I keep saying,

a beautiful and varied amalgam of

373

regional and personal cooking taste.

374

The cross, uh, broad spectrum.

375

And that is the biggest change.

376

And while, you know, listen, you may

have been impatient with me with my

377

little diatribe about not calling

it Chinese food, but it's important

378

because this is what's happened.

379

And now we've reached this place

where where you can, in fact, discover

380

various personal regional dishes.

381

And I don't, I want always to avoid

the authenticity trap because I

382

think there are as many Szechuan

grandmothers who make red cooking pork

383

as many different ways as there are

grandmothers making red cooking pork.

384

But now you can find.

385

out about these kind of really

intense breezes and stir fries.

386

So for example, Bruce made his sister

and brother in law were here and

387

Bruce made some incredible dishes

for them one night while they were

388

Bruce: here.

389

And let's say they live in the Bay

area, so they can get really good

390

Chinese food in a restaurant, but.

391

She, my sister just wanted

me to make it because

392

Mark: Let me say that, wait, before

you, before you get to your dishes,

393

sorry, let me interrupt and say

that she reminds me again about the

394

diversification and regionalization

and personalization of Chinese food.

395

When Bruce and I visit his sister and

brother in law in the Bay Area, we often

396

go to this halal Chinese restaurant

and it is food from a particular

397

region of China that is Islamic.

398

And so, for example, there's not going

to be any pork in this restaurant

399

at all because it's halal Chinese

food and it's not terribly spicy.

400

It's very sour.

401

There's a lot of sour, fermented

402

Bruce: pickled things.

403

Yep.

404

Mark: Yep.

405

And a lot of soured

pickled things in the dish.

406

We make a trek all the way down to San

Jose to eat this halal Chinese food.

407

It's delicious.

408

Bruce: So I made two dishes for Julie

when she and her husband were here.

409

And the first one, I don't know the

Chinese name of, I'm not even going

410

to pretend that I know what it is.

411

I know that this dish is an,

old fashioned comfort food dish.

412

I've seen online videos of older

Chinese people talking about having

413

this when they were kids, when

they were sick, their mothers would

414

make it for them as comfort food.

415

You take very fatty ground pork at your

base and you mix into that actually some

416

water and some rice wine and some stock.

417

You want it to actually be a wet mixture.

418

You season it with oyster sauce and water.

419

with a white pepper and then the key

ingredient is depending upon where

420

your grandmother was from, she would

have either put in preserved chopped

421

cabbage or preserved mustard greens.

422

I decided to use both.

423

Why not?

424

And I put both in.

425

Then you flatten that into a pie plate.

426

You put that into a bamboo

steamer and you steam it.

427

Mark: So good.

428

And

429

Bruce: you end up with this sort of

floating burger patty of meat floating.

430

Isn't it really?

431

Mark (2): Salty sauce,

432

Bruce: salty, fatty, delicious sauce.

433

And you pour that sauce over the rice.

434

And

435

Mark: you like chunk it up almost

like pie wedges or just with a spoon.

436

And then you want all

the sauce on your rice.

437

Bruce: So comforting.

438

And then the other thing I

made is, uh, sometimes called

439

fish and sour mustard soup.

440

And it's really,

441

Mark (2): favorite thing.

442

Bruce: A simple dish.

443

Actually, if you think about it, um, I

just stir fried some ginger and scallions

444

and garlic and some fermented red chilies,

which yes, of course I fermented myself.

445

And then you put in a fish broth and

you put in some sliced thin white fish.

446

I used sea perch.

447

Mark: Thank you, Costco.

448

Costco has amazing sea perch.

449

Bruce: And the key ingredient is is

the soured pickled mustard greens.

450

And you buy those in pouches, you drain

off the brine, you chop it up, you

451

let that all come to a little simmer,

and then you put fresh green Sichuan

452

peppercorns, which you can find in a

freezer section of an Asian market.

453

And it's just so good.

454

And

455

Mark: Sichuan, green Sichuan,

456

Bruce: Chili oil.

457

Well, yeah, I added that on top

too, because we like sizzling

458

oil over the top of the whole.

459

I poured it over the hop just

to bring out all those flavors.

460

It was so it's

461

Mark: it's an amazing dish.

462

And again, this is what has happened

is that we have all become now because

463

of globalization, whatever you think

about that politically, but because

464

of globalization and because of the

access to ingredients on a global

465

scale, we've become globalized.

466

All much more conversant in these things.

467

So let me say, when we round out

this discussion about where Chinese

468

food has come from, let me encourage

you to find local small Chinese

469

businesses and frequent them.

470

And you can do this with really

easy Google searches, Yelp searches,

471

TripAdvisor searches in your area.

472

And the reason I say this is twofold.

473

One, To get away from Panda

Express, of course, and broaden

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your understanding of Chinese food,

which is really a fun thing to do.

475

And two, a lot of these places that

you'll frequent are small entrepreneurs,

476

and we all want to support small

entrepreneurs and small businesses,

477

and we all want to help them.

478

them survive.

479

So you're not only helping,

uh, broaden your own palette,

480

you're kind of helping the U.

481

S.

482

economy by supporting

a small entrepreneur.

483

And it will make a difference in what

you consider, quote, unquote, Chinese

484

food to this new and exciting and

vast world of regional, cultural,

485

and geographic dishes in China.

486

Before we get to the last part

of this podcast, let me say that

487

Bruce and I have a TikTok channel

and, uh, you should check it out.

488

It's cooking with Bruce

and Mark on TikTok.

489

You can find cooking with Bruce and Mark

on Instagram and you can find us of course

490

in our Facebook group as Bruce always

tells you, but the TikTok channel is got.

491

All the videos lately that are going

up and, uh, that's kind of fun.

492

We're, we've been on a chocolate

cookie jag for a while now.

493

Um, Bruce, I've been making Bruce dairy

free chocolate chip cookies and he's

494

been making me full butter, chocolate

cookies of all different kinds.

495

I even overcame my fear

of a pastry bag recently.

496

Bruce: And you made the most

delicious almond horns for me.

497

Mark: I did.

498

They were good.

499

So, um, you might want to

check that out on Tik TOK.

500

And, uh, see what we're up to, because

it's a great thing to subscribe to

501

just to get constant videos about

food, which is, you know, we love,

502

all right, as is traditional, the

last segment of this podcast, what's

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making us happy in food this week?

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Bruce: Korean rice cake carbonara.

505

Mark: Oh gosh.

506

Okay.

507

Well, this is something you can

find on TikTok, but okay, go on,

508

you can find on our TikTok channel.

509

So

510

Bruce: the Korean rice cakes that

are tubular, you know, the tubular

511

rice cakes, not the flat ones,

the Becky, and I know that's not.

512

correct accent of pronunciation, but

so I basically used that instead of

513

pasta to make a carbonara with egg

yolks and parmesan cheese and bacon and

514

man, it was filling and it was filling.

515

But as we ate it, I kept

saying something is wrong.

516

It's like there was this cross

cultural problem happening.

517

The flavor was totally carbonara

and Italian and the texture

518

was totally Korean rice cake.

519

So

520

Mark: the difference in us.

521

Bruce: And I didn't know what to do

with it as I ate it, except enjoy it.

522

Mark: It's, it's, you're the chef and

you're much more into like, well, but this

523

goes with this and this goes with this.

524

And I'm just the wild guy.

525

And I make crazy recipes and I make stuff

up and I don't care about categories.

526

And I just mush it all together and

put gochujang on frosted flakes.

527

And I'm happy.

528

And so I'm, this is just crazy experiment.

529

food because I don't haven't

been trained and I don't have

530

any notion of what the rules are.

531

And so because I don't have any training,

I'm just the writer of our books.

532

To me, it was fabulous.

533

It was deeply chewy rice bits and,

um, rice logs, rice cylinders.

534

Then, you know, with the just

traditional carbonara with

535

parmesan and, uh, eggs and bacon.

536

No,

537

Bruce: but that texture.

538

I expected chilies and he did use

539

Mark: bacon and not one Charlie.

540

And I think that actually the bacon worked

better because it's a stronger flavor.

541

It's more, you know, he just used, uh, U.

542

S.

543

As they call it, streaky bacon, thin

bacon strips that we all know in the U.

544

S.

545

And actually gave it a better Huge smoke

hit and a huge salt here, which actually

546

made it a little better against all those

rice cakes So it it was really good.

547

I loved it What's making

me happy in food this week?

548

Is that we got to go to a friend's house

this last weekend and eat ossobucco

549

And if you know me, you know how much

I love ossobucco and he did a big

550

bang up job on this awesome book.

551

Oh, and he made it with a citrus.

552

So it had orange zest in the awesome book.

553

Oh, and parsley and garlic.

554

It was tomato.

555

Yeah, it was tomato based, but the

oranges were just what was the thing.

556

And then he made a gremolata, the

dry herb garlic topping with orange.

557

And he put, he didn't

let me get there yet.

558

He put it with orange zest in it.

559

And it's, it was just so.

560

Unbelievable, comforting.

561

We sat at that table for hours, uh,

hours, and I think, uh, there were six

562

of us, and I think five bottles of wine

got drunk in the end by the time the

563

evening was over, but it was almost

worth what happened to me the next day.

564

I'm too old to drink like that anymore,

but, uh, it was almost worth it, but

565

the food was absolutely spectacular.

566

It was.

567

I was actually very happy that somebody

cooked for me and cooked so carefully

568

for me, and, um, it was fantastic.

569

So, uh, cook for your friends.

570

You can make this.

571

them happy.

572

Okay, that's the episode of Cooking

with Bruce and Mark this week.

573

We appreciate your time with us

and listening to us bang on about

574

Chinese food, whatever that means

in North America, and how we've

575

seen it change over the years.

576

And actually, it's an exciting change, and

I look forward to other exciting changes.

577

I look forward to finding out the

intricacies of Indonesian fare in

578

the months ahead as Bruce starts

to explore Indonesian cuisine.

579

Until I look forward to that so

much because it's just fun to

580

explore food in various ways.

581

Bruce: And every week we tell you

what's making us happy in food here

582

on Cooking with Bruce and Mark.

583

So go to our Facebook group, also

called Cooking with Bruce and Mark,

584

and every week I post a question.

585

What's making you happy in food this week?

586

Please answer it because we want to

know what is making you happy in food

587

this week here on Cooking with Bruce

588

and