The 25th edition of “The Triple Double” with Rob Brost, Bolingbrook (IL) High School Boys’ Basketball Head Coach. Rob, Mike, & Jason hit on three basketball topics in each episode of “The Triple Double”.

1. What are the keys to getting the most out your best player?
2. What part of a high school coach's job is dramatically underestimated?
3. What question do you wish more coaches would ask you...as opposed to the ones you get asked all the time?

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Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads Podcast.

It's Mike Cleansing here tonight with Rob Broys, basketball coach at Bolingbroke High School for triple double number 25.

As Rob just said to me before we jumped on a quarter of a century, I don't think we've really been going for 25 years.

But hey, 25 of these episodes.

Pretty good stuff, Rob.

Yeah, I'm always excited to be on and you know, it's this is the number one podcast in my mind, the one that I listen to the most.

Your guests are always great and you're always great, so I'm just happy to be a part of it.

25 Episodes.

Wow.

It's great.

It's awesome.

And I think you got the record.

So I had somebody say to me the other day, kip, I own who I've had him on.

I Believe that was the third time, maybe I can't remember.

But he's like, hey, you got to have some kind of repeater award.

Like, you shouldn't have stickers made or something that I could send to people.

For, like a helmet.

Like a helmet sticker.

Yeah, right.

Exactly, exactly.

Something like that.

So I told him, I said, that's a really good idea.

So as my camp season progresses and I see if I can get some more time on my hands, maybe I'll go ahead and figure something out that I can send to repeat guests.

And you'd be, you would be.

You'd have.

We have to make really little ones for your helmet, Rob, so that we could fit them all.

So we fit them all on there.

But that's great.

I'm honored, like, like the middle linebacker at Ohio State with all the stickers.

That's what I feel like right now.

That's it.

That's exactly who you are.

That's exactly.

All right, so three topics for Rob tonight, and we're going to just go through these and we'll see where the conversation related to each one takes us.

First question is, what are the keys to getting the best, the most out of your best player?

And so, Rob, you've been very fortunate in your career to work with a lot of great players who have played at the collegiate level, who have played at the pro level.

And so what, over the course of your career has been the important things that if I'm a high school coach and I'm trying to get the most out of the best player on my team, what do I need to do?

How do you do that?

Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting.

When you sent me these earlier and I, I was, you know, writing some notes down and trying to, you know, organize at least my thoughts at least onto paper a little bit.

I think every player is a little bit different, as funny as that sounds, but they all have similarities.

Right.

And so, you know, been really fortunate to coach some really, really high level players, and most recently, some top 20, 25 kids in the country currently have a top 20 kid, according to ESPN and all of the other things that people read on my team now and just had a player that committed to Arkansas, in fact, last night.

So, you know, I've been fortunate enough to coach some really, really great players.

And I think the number one thing as far as I'm concerned is that they really need to know that you care about them more than just the basketball piece.

And, you know, you've known me for A while now.

And we've done enough of these.

You could probably guess that I was going to say something related to that, but I think that the kid needs to know that you care about him more than the basketball piece.

And in this day and age, that you don't want anything in return.

You're going to put everything into them, but you don't need or want anything back in return.

And if you can't do that, you're really in it for the wrong reasons.

And I don't care if you're the coach, if you're the agent, if you're the dad, whoever you are, relative to that player.

And we happen to be talking about really, really good players.

I think that's the number one thing.

And then I also think that you really need to challenge them and get them out of their comfort zone, because very few people with these elite, elite players do that.

And they're all afraid to do that.

I shouldn't say all, but a lot of people, a lot of coaches are afraid to do that because they think they might leave or they might go to a different team, or they might just be upset and then shut it down or whatever the case may be.

And so I think those things are important.

And great players really want to be coached, and they want to be coached hard, but they also, at the same time, want to know and understand and feel that you care about them.

And so I think the caring and loving them is number one.

And then number two is really pushing them so that they reach or get closer to their potential, right?

And certainly they're not going to be the best basketball player they're ever going to be under me because I'm a high school coach, right?

And they'll be probably at their peak potential between the ages of, you know, 23 and 28 or whatever it is that it is.

So, you know, I'm gonna be with them, so to speak, for a long time, and I'm gonna be following them and communicating with them and all of those things.

And so I think number one is that you gotta love them and care about them.

And then number two, you really need to challenge them to not only take their game to another level, but help them with all the other things that matter, quote, unquote, to people now, because there's so many things and so many people that are dragging these kids down and want to have a piece of them, so to speak, whether it's agents, whether it's nil people, whether it's boosters, whether it's other coaches, all of the things.

And so you really, I think, need to help with that when needed.

But at the same time, it's their thing.

It's not my thing, it's their thing.

And so that's what I try to do.

And that's been pretty successful to this point.

But times are changing and, you know, my elite players that I have now, there's a whole different realm of things that we're dealing with than say, you know, a high major division one kid that I had 10 years ago.

It.

It seemed like a lot then, but there's way more now than there ever has been.

And so many people want a piece of these kids and so many people want credit, quote unquote, for being the reason why.

And you can't be any of that.

You can't want any of that.

You have got to want what's best for the kids.

And this is just me talking and what's been successful for me, and help when help is needed and then get out of the way when it's not, you know, your area or your area of expertise, because the kids will come to you if they know you care about them when, when they need you, and then just be there for them.

And so those are the biggest things.

And I think the relational part of it is, number one, how much of.

The agent side of things that we're seeing.

Clearly, guys who are going into the portal, the number of.

And I. I'm going to use agents in air quotes because clearly if you're at the professional level, there is a vetting process that you have to go through if you want to represent players in the NBA or Major League Baseball or the NFL.

Whereas it feels like, at least from what I'm seeing and hearing from people, that it's almost like being a basketball trainer, being a basketball agent, you can just kind of hang up your shingle and all of a sudden I'm a basketball agent.

So I'm just curious, from your perspective with, obviously you're the level of talent that you have on your team and the guys that you have an opportunity to work with, what are you seeing, hearing, who are you talking to on the agent side of it?

What does that look like from a high school perspective?

Because I've kind of gotten an opportunity to talk to some college coaches about it, and there's a lot of them that just say, I'm almost dealing exclusively with the agent negotiating what that deal is going to be.

So what are you seeing from.

From a high school perspective?

First off, I was joking with one of my colleagues at a rival high school of mine, and we're good friends and he's a former assistant of mine and he's got a great program now.

And we were saying we should just be agents right now.

That's what we should do.

And that is absolutely outrageous to me and completely unnecessary.

And so the high school coach's role is a lot different now as far as the recruiting thing for elite players.

And, and I'm not saying all agents are bad or anything like that, especially if you're an elite player and you're getting up towards the six seven figure numbers, which a couple of our guys, thank goodness, are getting to that level.

And so you probably need an agent at that point, but you need a real one and you need one that has experience and that's not only going to be transactional, but is going to listen to you and take a holistic approach to your situation and then be with you hopefully for a longer period of time than just enough to get this deal done and then next year transfer somewhere else and get a new deal and then a new deal.

And so I think it's different for different levels of players and everybody thinks they need an agent now, but we have kids at low major schools, low to mid major schools, that probably don't need an agent.

And we're talking about 50 to $100,000 or $100,000 to $200,000, whatever it is, but you don't need to be given 20% of that to somebody else when you could just do that yourself.

And so it's frustrating to a point because the high school coach and me in particular, I'm kind of taken out of the recruiting piece at this point.

Of course, you know, I'll help where help is needed, but a lot of it is now the agent just with numbers and what's going to get you in the door.

And I'm a little bit uncomfortable dealing with all of those things because I don't want it to seem like I want some of it or what, whatever the case may be, and because I certainly don't.

And.

But I'm glad that our kids and kids in general are getting paid.

And so it's just a little bit different atmosphere all the way around than it was five, even five years ago really, when it first kind of started going a little bit now it's just a whole nother level of.

And I can't believe some of the money that's being thrown around, just even to our guys in general.

I get it, but, like, it is insane, the amount of money that I can't even imagine.

You're on full scholarship, and then in addition to that, you're getting half a million dollars or even a hundred thousand dollars or like, even somebody at, you know, some schools, even five to $10,000 even.

That seems to me like, holy, holy cow.

So, you know, I'm glad they're getting it, and I'm not saying they shouldn't get it, but I think we.

Hopefully there's some guardrails that come on, and I don't know what that looks like.

And that's for another pot, of course, but it's a different time and definitely a different way of thinking.

And the high school coach is kind of pushed out of that to a certain extent.

And that's why, you know, what we talked about at the beginning, about really caring for your players, that's the most important thing, because not a lot of people involved with some of these elite kids especially, really care about the kid.

They just want a piece of the action, so to speak, and they want some money in their pocket as well.

And so.

And I get that, and I understand that, but it's just hard for me to, you know, get in line, if that.

If that makes sense.

All I know, Rob, is I was born 40 years too early, so I was.

I was excited when we used to get $300 worth of meal money over Christmas break for food for a month.

And then I'd be like, can I save half of this?

And that's what I try to do every year and buy myself a pair of shoes.

And I felt like I was living on top of the world with a hundred.

I remember eating ramen noodles for an entire Christmas break.

We said we were going to do that.

We were going to pool our money and then buy a big stereo.

You know, the ones where you had to connect the things and the cords are running all across the room.

That was our whole goal in college when we were playing, so that we could eat ramen every day and.

And then buy a stereo for our room, you know, a nice stereo.

So, anyways, exactly what you're saying.

It's.

It's.

It's crazy.

And now it's at a whole nother level of, you know, financial situation.

And again, I'm glad kids are getting what they deserve.

I just don't Know if the whole system is sustainable, number one.

And then number two, um, you know, you just got to be careful with, with.

I mean, the kids have got to be careful because they're making this money and it's life changing for sure.

But you can't, you know, this is kind of your highest earning years right here.

And that's going to shut off for some of them when they're 20 to 23 years old, because very few, if any, are going to make the NBA.

And then now you're at a whole nother level of, gee, I'm used to, you know, three quarters of a million or a million dollars or whatever it is coming to me every year.

And now I have nothing coming to me.

So I just think there's gotta be some guardrails.

I don't know what that exactly looks like, but I'd be happy to be a part of that solution if, if somebody, somebody asked me to.

Yeah, there's a lot of different things I think that still have to work their way through the system to get it all ironed out.

I think generally speaking that you and I are probably on the same page when it comes to kids having the opportunity to get paid and, and earn for what they do on the floor.

And yet at the same time, like you said there, it's to hand an 18 year old kid, we used to say, right, to hand a 22 year old kid in the NBA that kind of money was crazy and that they couldn't handle it.

And now we're talking about 17 or 18 year olds getting that same amount of money with a lot less oversight of the people who may or may not be there to, quote, help them to navigate that whole thing.

And so I think to your point that is it sustainable?

I find it very, very hard to believe that the number of schools and the deal, some of the size of the money that I've seen.

Yeah, I just find it very, very hard to believe that those numbers are sustainable.

When I think about, again, the league that I played in and the dollar amounts that I've seen some of the kids get in the league that I played in as a college player, I look at that and I'm like, holy cow.

I just don't know how that continues to be sustainable.

Maybe again, if you're North Carolina, you're Kentucky, sure, I understand it from the booster standpoint and the league you're playing in, the television contracts and all that stuff, but some of the lower levels, I'm not quite so sure how that works, but nonetheless, it's here.

And I think the most important thing is for anyone who's involved in it, right, Is to try to do it to the best of the.

The benefit of the players that you're trying to help, right?

So for you, it's your guys, you're trying to help them to navigate it, to be able to get the best opportunity, the best deal that they can so that they can thrive as a basketball player and ultimately thrive as a person.

And unfortunately, not everybody has that as their mentality.

But again, if that's where we can sort of head, then I think we're going in the right direction.

And I just want to circle back to your two main points in answering this question because I think that the final connection, sort of, that needs to be made between those two is that you can't have one of your two main points really, without the other.

And so your main point of you got to have that relationship and you got to care about the kid as more than just a basketball player.

You have to care about them holistically as a person.

And when they know that you feel that way now, you can push them.

Conversely, if all you're going to do is push them and you're not going to have that relationship piece, then that's not going to work.

And if all you're going to do is love them, let them do whatever they want, not push them, then they're never going to get better as a basketball player.

And so I think that those two things, again, I think you ranked them in the correct order, and yet I think that there's no way that you can have one or the other.

And I know personally for a fact that I've seen situations where the coach has loved the player and then not coach the player very hard.

Conversely, I've seen situations where players have been coached hard, but maybe haven't been made to feel like the coach who's coaching them hard loves them and cares about them as a person.

And neither one of those situations turns out well for anybody.

And so I think the big point that I would take away from, as you were talking, I'm like, those are awesome points.

And the interconnectedness of the two, they have to go hand in hand in order to get the best out of your best player.

And I think that's the point that, that you were making and that I just wanted to reiterate that they have to go together in order to maximize, yes, that relationship, player, coach, and to get the most out of that kid, not just as a basketball player.

Again, but as a kid, to help, especially as a high school coach, right, Guide them towards the type of life that you want them to have.

And if you don't do that, you know, in my position or other people's position, even as a college coach, if you don't do that, you're not going to get any more kids, right?

Especially in the day and age where I'm at a public school.

So obviously, you know, they have to live here and all those things, but they.

There's so many opportunities, especially for elite players now, that if you don't do all of those things, you're not going to get a chance.

And you might not get a chance, you know, anyways, but you're for sure not going to get a chance because elite players talk to other elite players, right?

And they, they want to do what the last elite player did.

They want to be like that.

And so kids want to be like that.

And sometimes kids.

And this will roll into the next question as well, but sometimes kids don't understand the holistic piece of it.

Like, everyone thinks that Brady and Davion and J.T.

Apprentice, all of these guys that we've had, that they just show up in our good.

No, no.

That the exact opposite is true.

We go through all the things with them, just like, just like I do with my sixth man, my seventh man, my own son who is a part of it, like you.

You go through all the things.

And so, you know, you have to be ready for that on, on all sides of it, really.

Perfect.

All right, question number two.

What part of a high school coach's job is dramatically underestimated?

Well, I think this is going to kind of sound like I'm almost repeating a similar response to previous questions, but I think if this makes sense, and I'll try to make it make sense, but players aren't machines.

And, you know, when we go out there and the game is sold out and everyone is, and we don't play well and we don't perform well as coaches and, or players, people don't understand that we are not machines.

We're not.

We're, you know, dealing with kids that are 15, 16, 17 years old.

And just like you see in an NBA game last night, sometimes you just don't play well.

That's just the way it is.

It's.

The other team is trying as well.

So I think the, the thing that's underestimated the most, I think, is the, the fact that you don't, you're not just going to perform well all the time and that there's so many things that go into being a good high school coach that people have no idea that I spend most of my time with relationships, things off the floor that really have everything to do with how they perform.

But that's the majority of the important things that I do.

And obviously on the court is important piece of it.

And if we couldn't do that part then, you know, people would not look at it as much of us as a much of a success, I guess you would say.

But the holistic piece of it and how it's all encompassing and how, you know, I know these kids, parents, I know what's happening at home.

I know like something's going on with their brother and sister.

Not in every case, but a lot of the cases.

And they come to me with things you would have no idea that they're going through this.

And you know, a kid scores six points and then everybody's like, well, what happened to him?

Well, if you knew exactly what was happening, you would know that the last thing on this kid's mind is scoring six points on a Friday night.

And so, you know, just the all encompassing nature of it, I think is dramatically underestimated now.

I think there's guys that can maybe not ignore those things, but kind of shy away from those things and then it's a little bit easier, I guess, quote unquote.

But that's not how I want to do it.

And so I think just the fact that players and coaches are not machines and that we're all humans and that we're going to love each other regardless of how we perform on Friday night or Saturday night or in a playoff game or anything like that.

And because we're going to love each other, that's the main reason why we perform well a lot of the time, not all the time, but a lot of the time.

And so because there really isn't any pressure on them when you really get down to it, like our relationship is going to be the same whether we win or lose.

And so that's hard for 15, 16 and 17 year olds.

And it's even harder for the parents who are not experiencing it.

They're not actually in with us.

It's really hard for them to get and understand.

And that same assistant that I was referencing before said, you know, he was assistant at several spots before he came with us and he said, you can't really understand it and you can't really feel it until you're in it with you guys.

And that's the Best way I can describe it, you have to be in it with us for a year or two, and then, then you can go out and, and do it.

And, and I'm not saying everybody has to come and do it the way we do it.

That's not what I'm saying.

But like, so to get back to the question, I think just the comprehensive nature of the position and everything that entails, right?

And you know, seeing kids being vulnerable, seeing kids perform well, but then also seeing them not perform well and treating them the same, regardless of those, those two things.

And then conversely, it's true with me as well.

Sometimes I coach well, sometimes I put them in the right spots, sometimes I don't.

And same thing, I expect that they're going to love me, you know, even if I mess up.

And so, you know, I think the example that the head coach, you know, shows is the most important thing because they're gonna follow your lead and what, what you do.

Right?

And so I think that's really, really important.

But I think the holistic nature of the whole thing is completely underestimated.

And people think, why, oh, bro says, man, he has an easy job over there at Bolingbrook.

Well, exactly the opposite is true because of all the things that we deal with and have to do and other coaches deal with it too.

I'm not saying that mine's harder than anybody else's.

I'm just saying in general, if you do it the right way, it's really, really hard.

Well, and the average person, Rob, right.

And again, the people who are probably, I would say the second most invested in the team is probably the parents, right?

Yeah.

And when a coach, I think about it this way, when a coach is hired, I never hear discussions amongst parents of players on those teams discussing, hey, what kind of a relationship builder is this guy?

Like, how good is he at finding out about what's going on on Friday and Saturday night on the high school scene so he can have a conversation with his players?

I don't, I don't hear.

That's not what people are interested in.

People are interested in what's his style of play, what's his, what's his record, what's he going to do here?

All things that are basketball related, which you and many, many other people have said to me thousands of times.

The amount of actual basketball coaching that you do, especially as a high school coach, is a minimal amount compared to all the other things that you have to do, which encompasses the human element, but just the logistics, the administrative, all the things that we all know that coaches have to do.

And so I think your point of it being that holistic piece of I've got to know my players, I've got to know that we have a relationship.

They have to know that.

And that that relationship, as you always say, is not based upon the amount of time that they play.

It's not based upon their performance in a given game.

The relationship is there because it's there and it's important to you.

And it's important to them.

It's not based upon what their performance looks like on the court.

And as you know, as I think about your answer and just going through and, and trying to get somebody maybe who's starting out in the profession to have an understanding.

Right.

Again, something that a lot of coaches have told me is when I first started, it was all about X's and O's and I was worried about wins and losses and I wasn't worried about the human side and the relationship piece of it.

And so I think that a good thing maybe to ask you here as a follow up, Rob, is how do you go about.

And you and I have talked about this before and I'm sure we've shared it on a couple episodes as well.

But just I think here to put some context to your answer, what are some of the things that you do that enable you to build the kind of relationships that you're talking about holistically so that you can have all these things that go along with it, but there's an investment in different, different things that you have to do in order to build the kinds of relationships that you're describing.

So just give us one or two of the things that you feel like enable you to build those relationships.

Yep.

I'll give you one example.

We either do this at the beginning of the season or the beginning of the summer, wherever there.

There's been a break of between us seeing each other on a daily basis.

Right.

So like right now we're in the middle of the summer, so I see everybody every day for the next two weeks and then we're done.

And then I'll start seeing everybody every day during school, but then I'll really see them every day, you know, once practice starts.

So whenever we don't do it every single time.

But this is just one example.

I'll get up there and I'll say, I want you to tell me some of the qualities of players that you've played with that are great teammates.

What do they do?

Like, what do they do?

And so then the kids will invariably say they're competitive.

They encourage people, they're coachable, they go really hard, they, you know, are competitive.

I think I might have mentioned that already, that they're empathetic towards others, that they high five a lot, that they are vocal on the court, they communicate well, they're on time.

And that will list, like, I don't know, 50 things up on the board.

And I'll say, okay, is there anybody in here right now that can't do all of the things that are listed on this board?

And nobody ever says, is a great shooter, can handle the ball well, is ultra quick, is six foot seven, dunks, every ball.

You know, they don't say any of that, which is exactly.

I don't want them to say that.

Those things I want them to say, like, think about somebody you enjoyed playing with and they were a great teammate.

What do they do?

Like what, what do they do?

They hold each other accountable.

They're, you know, they listen, they encourage, they don't freak out when something goes bad.

They're resilient, all of those things.

And then again, we talk about, how is there anybody in this room that can't do all of those things?

And then we agree right there out loud that all of us are going to, as best we can, try to do all of those things.

And then if that's the baseline, we.

We all know that that's the baseline.

And then when that's not happening, I can say, hey, hey, Steve or Joe or whoever it is.

Remember when we talked about this a month ago and you said, you're not doing that right now.

Just the, the hands up.

We call it palms up.

The palms up.

Like, when I ask you something, that's not going to fly here because that's not what good teammates do.

And we talked about this, so let's move on to the next thing.

And it's usually something as simple as, yep, you're right, coach, I got it.

And then so, you know, it's just things like that that we do constantly, and then not that activity constantly, but what I reinforce constantly are those behaviors of good teammates.

Right?

And so.

And sharing and doing all the things.

And so, like, even today at camp, I had to say, guys, if you want me to get involved in this, you don't want that.

You don't want that.

You want to do the things that we talked about.

And it's.

You can tell it's starting to slip off a little bit.

And then immediately they were like, okay, let's go.

Come on.

So my point is that that's the expectation and that's the standard so that they get used to doing it, and you get better at what you get used to doing and what you do over and over and over.

So we get better at it as we go.

And of course, in the summer, it's a little different because instead of having, you know, 12 to 15 varsity kids, I got like, 75 kids there, and we got a even on the wood court.

We have a wide.

I mean, we have a top 20 kid there, and we have a kid that has no chance of playing varsity basketball on the floor at the same time.

Well, we still expect, like, today, one of my.

My elite, I would call him elite point guards, threw a pass to a kid that's not as talented, went right through his hands, and you could tell he was frustrated that the kid didn't catch the ball.

And I was like, hey, man, it's good.

You got to keep throwing it and keep encouraging him to catch it, because he might not catch it the next 10, but he might catch the 11th.

And now this is the summer and not the season.

So that particular young man, I mean, he may or may not be on the floor when we come November.

So my point is that the behaviors that are the right behaviors need to be reinforced during the time that you're with them.

And so the other thing we do is when I talk to them one on one, this is off the court, not like in a practice set.

They can say whatever they want to me, and I can say whatever I want to them.

And so, you know, a kid can come to me and be like, coach, I think I'm better than so and so why am I not playing?

I don't understand it.

I think it's ridiculous.

Now you can't swear and, you know, within reason, but you can say.

You can say that.

Now, you can't say that during a timeout of.

In a game.

But you can come to me and talk to me, and you can say exactly that.

But then you have to be ready for, like, my response.

Like, are you really being serious?

Maybe we're seeing two different things out there.

And so this is what I see.

And so I think if you're honest and you allow the kids to have voice in what's happening, then they can take just about anything.

Just like I can take just about anything.

Coach, I have no idea why I'm a player.

I mean, this happened last year.

I have no idea why I haven't played in the first five games.

I think it's ridiculous, and I'm really tired of it.

I'm thinking about quitting.

Like, that happened, and those things happen.

And I'm.

I said, I can see where you would feel like that because, you know, I have to make tough decisions.

And then I just feel like we're better off with so and so or whatever.

I respond.

So the point is that they feel comfortable using their voice to me, and then they feel like they're part of the deal.

And it all starts with that activity that we did way at the beginning with what is a good.

What does a good teammate do?

And then the flip side of that is a good teammate doesn't keep it all, you know, in.

In to themselves.

They let the coach know what they're feeling because I let.

I let them know what I'm feeling.

Like, hey, you can't turn that over.

Let's do a little bit better.

So they need to have the freedom to let me know what they're feeling as well.

And I think a lot of coaches, especially older coaches, don't allow that to happen or don't encourage that to happen, I guess.

And some kids, when they first get to know me, they're intimidated isn't the right word.

But they're afraid to come to me because I've won 500 games or I'm in the hall of Fame or whatever the case may be.

They think I'm like, oh.

But it's actually the exact opposite.

Like, you know, I. I would.

I can coach you better if I.

If I know what you're thinking.

And then you conversely, can play better if you know what I'm thinking, and then you'll be more comfortable, you'll be more at ease, and then you can play better.

And so I think the communication piece is.

Is really important.

But that goes both ways.

It's not just on the coach, and it's not just on the player.

Like, I have to be open to what they're saying, but they have to be open to what I'm saying and that, like.

And I don't get upset when kids come to me anymore.

In fact, I like it.

And that kind of goes with the parents, too.

I like when the parents come to me because I'll tell them exactly what I'm thinking, too.

And a lot of parents don't come to me because they don't want to hear what I have to say because they know I'm going to tell them the truth now.

I'm not going to bash their kid or, like, that's just not What I see, this is what I see.

And I've been doing this a long time and I'm, I want your kid to be as successful as you want your kid to be.

Like, I want that too.

And why would I, if he can do X, Y and Z, why would I keep that off the floor?

Especially if he's doing it better than other guys?

Like, I'm not the smartest person around, but I'm not the dumbest guy either.

Like, I want to win just like everybody else.

So, you know, I think it all starts with that baseline and then just daily habits of affirming kids, but affirming the right things, right?

And then not letting the things go that might not be what you want.

You have to address those things too.

So you have to affirm the good thing, but you can't just ignore the negative things because it's, again, it's a whole approach to it.

And you know, we do another activity, and this is during the season where we get up and we talk about, you know, something that makes you vulnerable or something we might not know about you.

And you would be shocked what these kids say.

I mean, it's, I mean, inevitably the three or four times at least everyone's crying because you have no idea what's happening in their house, or their grandpa just died, or their, you know, aunt committed suicide, or I'm just making these things up right now, but you get the idea.

And then when you share those things and you know those things about people, that connects you to them in a way that you weren't connected before.

And I worry that, you know, with this whole nil thing and all of those things that now some of that has gone away because it's just about how much money do I have?

Whereas before when it was just the scholarship, you still wanted to get to know those kids because you knew you'd have them for more than a year.

And you know, now I jumped into something else.

But it just, it's just a situation where we try to relate as best we can to our guys.

And sometimes you can and sometimes you can't, but it's, it's a two way street.

It's 50, 50, right?

I have to give them voice, but then they have to accept what I say and I have to accept what they say because that's what they feel.

And if you tell me how you feel, I can't have any argument with that.

And so I might not feel the same, and I might feel exactly the opposite, but that's, that's the way that it is.

So.

So three Cs come to mind as you're talking.

Two of them go together and then one of them is by.

By itself.

So the first is clarity and communication.

So that clarity and communication has to come from you to them and from them to you.

And I love what you said about there being no inability to understand where you are and what each side is thinking in terms of whether it's role, whether it's whatever.

Whatever it is that the topic is.

You know what they're thinking, they know what you're thinking.

In my experience as a coach, as a player, as a parent, some of the most frustrating times that I've experienced in athletics come when there is a lack of clarity and communication where things happen.

And as a coach, I don't understand what's going on with the player or as a player, I don't understand what my coach is asking me to do, or I don't understand why I'm not playing, or I don't understand why I think this guy should be on the floor with us instead of this guy.

I don't know the answers to those questions.

As a parent, why is my kid playing this amount of time?

Why is my kid not playing in this situation?

They don't know, so they can't communicate it to me.

So there's frustration.

So I think the clarity of communication, right?

You get everybody on the same page right from the start.

The activity where, hey, what's a great teammate?

We all agree on it now.

It's easier for you to reference that back, right?

Everybody's clear on what it means to be a great teammate.

And then.

Let me.

Let me just.

Let me just jump in here quick just for a half second.

Kids, and a lot of their parents, too, are not used to that, especially males.

And I'm not trying to make it into a male, female thing.

But everybody thinks, just be tough.

Just tough it out.

Do this, oh, coach is screwing you over, so do that.

No, you might want to go and have a conversation with the coach and then, you know, just see kind of where things are at, because I.

That's what I want, right?

And I'm not perfect either.

And I could have messed up not knowing what they're going through and not realizing what's happening, not realizing their talent, you know, all of those things.

That's all possible because I mess up too.

And so, you know, I want what's best for them, too.

So I don't want them holding in stuff too.

But so many kids are taught or Learned.

Just tough it out.

Don't say anything.

You got to do exactly what the coach says, and that's it.

Don't rock the boat.

And this will affect your playing time?

No, actually, the exact opposite is true, I hope, in our case, at least, I like it to be true.

And so it's not natural for kids especially to do that.

But again, what you.

You get better at what you practice.

So if they can get used to coming to me and doing those things and getting some positive response, maybe the situation doesn't change or maybe it does a little, but that doesn't guarantee I always talk.

You're not going to talk your way onto the floor.

It's not going to work.

That's not going to work.

But talking to me will work because then you'll know where you are and I'll know where you're coming from and all of those things.

And so I just think kids sometimes are not used to it, and then they're afraid to do it because they haven't done it enough.

And then the few times that they have done it, they've been just knocked over the head, so to speak.

And so, like, why are you even questioning?

Like, you can't do that.

And that's not what I want.

So I apologize for interrupting the clarity communication piece.

And we can.

We can jump right back into that.

No, that's a great point.

And I think that what I.

What I think about in that situation is if I don't come to the coach.

Right.

And I'm just.

I have a question or there's something going on that I don't understand.

If I don't go and I don't hear it from coach, bro, what am I doing?

I'm just inventing things.

Yes.

In my head.

That and those become your excuse for why you're not playing or why you're not playing well.

Right?

Correct.

Absolutely.

And we all know that if there's a scenario of, hey, why I'm not playing as much as I think I should be, there's a million different things that I can come up with in my mind that I can imagine.

These crazy scenarios of this or that or favoritism or coach or this, why does he think this kid's better than me?

He's not.

Like, there's.

You can invent a million different things that can make the player crazy.

Right.

And to your point, if you just go and have the conversation now, at least you may not, as you said, like what you hear when you hear the truth, but at least now I know if coach says, hey, you've got to be able to knock down open threes because you're a catch and shoot, that's the role that you're going to have.

And right now the guy ahead of you is making 40% in games and you're shooting 20% in practice.

So.

Well, now I, now I have something I can work on.

Right now I've got a goal in front of me as opposed to me just going, well, he likes this kid better.

And this kid stops by his room in school all the time and he's talking to you can invent all these scenarios.

So I think that again, the clarity of understanding and then the ability of both sides, but particularly obviously the coach as the adult setting the standard for what that looks like of how do we have those honest conversations?

Because as you said, people aren't used to having them.

Right.

They're not used to being able to have those difficult conversations.

People tend to shy away from that.

Even if it's not confrontation in the, in the way of we're arguing about it, it still is.

I have one opinion, you have another opinion.

They're different.

That's a confrontation.

Even though it's not us yelling at each other about things.

And people are not always comfortable with that.

And again, understandable in a 15, 16, 17 year old kid who may have never had the opportunity to have that kind of type of conversation with an adult because as you said, who knows what's going on in their home and how they communicate with their siblings or their parents or their grandparents.

Everybody's different.

I think that's a right, that's a piece of.

No doubt going back to your answer about holistically understanding what you know.

An underestimated part of being a high school coach is that's a life skill that you're teaching those kids to be able to have difficult conversations.

And you're doing it through the context in some cases of basketball and other cases of life.

But you're passing along a skill that is going to benefit them long after they're gone from Bolingbrook High School and long after they're done spending day after day with Coach Bros at practice during their season.

No doubt.

For sure.

All right.

And then the other thing, I think that the other c. Is just consistency.

Yes.

And I think that's something that is, I think it's underrated, no doubt.

Coaching.

Because I know for me that when I'm coaching that there are things that I'll read about or see or talk to someone about that I get very excited about, hey, I want to try this, or, hey, this is really cool.

And I'm consistent with it for about two weeks.

And then, yes, for some reason it falls off.

Or like, my wife and I talk about this all the time as parents.

Right.

That we have.

One of our three kids sometimes has difficulty organizing herself.

Yeah.

And so we're always like, we're gonna help her with her daily planner.

We're gonna write this down, and for two weeks we're like, on it.

Yep.

Two weeks goes by, and then all of a sudden, we haven't checked the planner in 10 days.

And then she's looking at us like, I just don't really care about the stupid planner because you're not consistent.

And so I think that hearing you talk about, hey, we.

We do this activity, we get all these lists of characteristics of a great teammate, we put all those on the board, we agree to them.

But then if that's all you do, and then when practice comes around and you ignore a kid who's not living up to those things, well, guess What?

That whole 45 minutes or hour or however long it took you to do the activity becomes a complete waste of time.

It's the consistency of, we're going to talk about this once, and then guess what?

We're going to talk about it every single day.

Every time we see it happening, we're going to praise it.

Every time we don't see it happening, we're going to call it out.

And that's how you again start to develop where it becomes habit.

And then your guys started forcing it.

And then, as you always like to say, you're just kind of back there steering the ship.

And your guys are taking over some of that because they want to have this kind of success that past teams have had.

And it all builds, but it builds because of consistency.

There's no question in that.

Like, I had an example of that happen at camp two days ago.

One of our top players text me, camp starts at 9, and I like them to be there by 8:45 at the latest, so they're ready, whatever.

And he text me about 8:55, coach, I overslept.

I'm on my way right now.

Sorry about that.

Perfect.

And then I responded with, thanks for letting me know.

Drive safely.

Do not be in a hurry.

I'll see you when you get here.

So, like, that same kid a year ago would never have text me that.

Never.

Because he would have been afraid, number one.

And then he wouldn't know what's going to Happen number two.

But it takes all that away if he just admits, or he would have made some dumb excuse, I have a dentist appointment, then he would have waited to come until like 9:45, you know, something like that.

Just tell me the truth, and then we can all work off of that, whatever that is, even if it's something really bad.

Just what my point is that the consistency of me responding that way to kid after kid after kid made this kid feel comfortable.

And now he's moved from one of our kind of like, sixth, seventh guys, and now he's a huge piece of what we're doing.

Like, we need him there daily and all of this.

And so.

But he's comfortable enough to be like, hey, coach, I overslept.

I. I'm on my way.

I'll be there in 10 minutes or 12 minutes, whatever he said.

And so.

And then I consciously, with my response, want to reinforce, like, hey, you did the right thing.

Thanks for texting me.

Thanks for telling me the truth.

Drive safe.

We'll see you when you get here.

And I didn't chastise him when he got there.

I didn't say, look who overslept.

I even said, hey, so, and so is late.

But he let me know ahead of time.

He let me know the reason, and I have no problem with it.

Let's go.

And then we just keep going.

And so I think, you know, 15 years ago, I probably wouldn't have done that.

AUTOMATED why aren't you running into the gym?

Why aren't you in a hurry?

Why don't you have your shoes on?

Like, how could you be late?

Well, I mean, if you.

If we all tell the truth, then we can just move forward and get to the next thing and.

Which is exactly what we did.

So, yeah, it makes sense.

And I think, again, to sort of sum up your answer, it's the human side of being a coach that is dramatically underrated and underestimated.

People have no idea how often you're just dealing with.

Forget about the basketball players.

You're just dealing with them as human beings, as people.

And when you do that and build the relationships, then that's what allows you to build them as basketball players and build a basketball team and build a basketball program is nurturing that human side of them first.

So, all right, question number three.

This is a question about a question.

So it is.

What question do you wish more coaches would ask you as opposed to the ones that you get asked all the time?

So I know that one of the questions that you get asked all the time is how do you play fast?

Right?

Everybody wants to know how do you play your up tempo style?

How do you get up and down the floor?

Whatever.

That's a question that people ask you all the time.

But what's a question that you wish people would ask you that they don't?

I mean, I don't know about a specific question, but I wish they understood what we just talked about in the last question.

That all of it depend, like how do I get my kids to play fast is part of the being a great teammate and all of the things are combined together.

So I get a lot of questions and I wish I could just show some people my emails, but like, you know, especially during the school year leading up to the season, I'll get, you know, 10 emails a week.

What do you do about this?

What's this?

Or if you, if you're guarding a pin down, what do you do this, what do you do if they take away the first pass?

And it's not always, but it's almost always an X's and O question.

And I get that, that as much as I get paid to talk and stuff, that's not my strong suit.

That's not what I'm good at.

My assistants are really good at that type of thing and I lean on them for a lot of the things that we do, X's and O wise and they, both of them have been head coaches before so that helps and all of those things.

But.

And consequently they're also not good at what I'm good at or what I think is my strength.

So I, I just, and a lot of younger coaches want to know how do, how can they get a head job as soon as possible?

How can I work for USA Basketball?

How can I get a college job?

What should I be doing?

Well, you just need to get the consistency of working.

That's the thing that, that matters is you just need to start working.

You know, I, I didn't, at 23, I wasn't like, well, how am I going to be a head coach?

Immediately I just started working and started being nice to people and then opportunities came and then when someone asked me to do something, I did it.

And then I wanted to make sure that I did a good job.

And then when people ask me to do something for usa, I, I want to do a good job.

And then when people ask me to come to Italy, I want to do a good job.

So that you just continually, the consistency that you talked about earlier and being a good person are the most important things.

And so especially young coaches will email me.

Like, they think, like, oh, well, I'll volunteer on your staff for one year, and then I'll be a head coach.

No, that's.

That's not how it works.

And it's, you know, really good.

Jobs are really good.

So people keep them, and so people stay there.

And, you know, it's interesting, especially the younger coaches, what they.

Everybody wants it quick, and they want to be this or that or, you know, they want to have the number one podcast.

Well, you.

You just start doing podcasts, and you do a really good job, and then you get more guests, and more guests help you get more guests because you're nice to them.

I mean, look at our friendship.

We've developed just from this.

And so it.

I wish instead of getting those questions.

I don't know if there's a specific question per se, but it's the whole of it all.

And, like, how I. I heard it this one time because I was asking similar questions to an experienced coach, like, what do you think?

And he said, well, how many coaches do you know?

Just start writing down the names of the coaches.

And then he said, well, how many of those coaches know you?

And I said, well, hardly any.

And he was like, I'd flop.

I try to flop the list.

And he said, you can't be, like, stalking guys or doing whatever, but just introduce yourself to guys.

Most guys are nice guys.

They want help.

They want to meet new people that are young and energetic that will do anything.

And so, you know, that advice came to me, you know, way back when I was a younger coach, like, flop the list.

And then.

Then you're.

You start having something, and then you are one of the names on the list that the guys write down now.

And so I don't know if there's a specific question.

I wish I would get asked more, but I think people really underestimate the.

You know, just start and be consistent with your work and do a good job.

And, you know, if.

If.

If they ask you to fold the towels, then be the best towel folder.

That's.

That there is.

You know, the.

You probably know the.

The Cavs gm.

Yeah.

Kobe spoke right before me at one of the USA clinics.

And he said when he first started, I can't even remember who was the head coach.

It might have been Matt Painter or somebody, but he would have to get the head coach at USA Basketball, like, Diet Cokes and have his, you know, drinks on ice.

And this is the.

The current GM of the Cavs.

And he said, I called my dad and I said, I don't know if I'm, I, I don't want to do this.

I don't want to be like the Diet Coke guy.

Like, I, I, I didn't come all the way out here to do that.

And his dad said, when he asked for the Diet Coke, you have it on ice, you have it ready, and you have two cases backed up, and you be the best Diet Coke getter.

I'm, I have a little of the story wrong, of course, but you get the idea.

And that was the current GM of the Cavs.

My point is that just start doing what you're supposed to do.

And then Coach Painter was like, well, I want him as my assistant, and I want him the next time, because then he couldn't, couldn't do it without him.

And so I think just, especially younger coaches, just make yourself valuable and do whatever is asked.

And sometimes nothing will be asked of you.

You know, we have like, three or four volunteers at camp, and sometimes I feel bad because they're young guys that want to get in, but, you know, I have other experienced guys that are getting paid, and so, you know, they kind of, you know, handle some things for me.

And these volunteers don't get to do quite as much.

And sometimes I feel bad about it.

And I think, like, just be the best whatever that we ask you to do.

If we ask you to run ball handling for 10 minutes, then just knock the ball handling out of the park for 10 minutes instead of thinking, like, oh, man, I'm just doing ball handling.

I thought I would learn, I thought I would learn how to play fast from Coach Bros. You know what I mean?

Like, and then, so it's all about perspective.

So I don't know if there's a certain question I would say, but just, you know, be ready for anything and be willing to do anything.

It's just like at your camp, you were just talking, like, now I have to get awards and make sure all that stuff's right.

People don't think about all that stuff.

That's what you have to do.

Like, two weeks ago, I was washing our uniforms in my own laundry, like, at my own house.

The shirt, the shorts, and then all the black shorts and then all the red shorts.

People have no idea that I'm doing that.

They think, oh, nine time coach of the year, USA coach.

He doesn't have to, like, no, that's what I'm doing.

That's what I'm doing.

Because that's what the job calls for me to do so well, you're making.

It look seamless, right?

And I think that's sort of the.

It's right.

The duck paddling on the lake, right?

You see the nice calm above the water and you don't see all the paddling that goes on beneath.

And I think that's certainly something that people who are not in the coaching profession do not understand.

All the paddling that goes on beyond underneath the water to make everything look very simple.

I think about, again, camp.

I'm going to show up tomorrow and I'm going to have all the certificates written out and every kid's going to get one and the trophies are going to be organized and we're going to have the tournament schedule put together.

And so when I stand up in front of the group and announce, hey, this team's playing here and this team's playing here, I'm not writing it out as I go and try and stumbling through it.

We're organized.

We know where to go.

And people who watch it, yeah, they see the finished product and it looks all together, but they don't think about the time that went into planning all that out.

When you're passing out uniforms and they're clean and they're organized by size and it takes 15 minutes to do that.

People don't understand that if you didn't do all those things, you'd be getting uniforms that have big splotches on them and it would take you three hours because you couldn't find the next pair of medium shorts or the next large jersey because they're all just strewn in a pile.

And those are things, I think, that people don't understand.

And the other thing that I thought about while you were talking in terms of just people having an understanding of doing the best job that you can in whatever job that you're in.

And your job description may be completely different from the things that you're asked to do.

I'm sure when Kobe Altman said, hey, I'm going to come in and help out at USA Basketball, nowhere on the paper that he signed or in any email that he received did it say, you're going to be getting Matt Painter Diet Cokes with ice.

And nowhere to say that, but that became something that clearly was important in making it a seamless operation for.

For Matt Painter.

And I think when I thought, like, Kobe Altman wouldn't be where he is today if he would have messed up the Diet Coke, the Diet Coke getting.

And I may have it off by the drink or two, but the Diet Coke Getting helped him get where he is right now.

So.

Right.

Yep.

And I think what a lot of young coaches want, and I'm guessing that when they ask you things, they want kind of the magic elixir that they can get in a sound bite or that they can get in five minutes or that they can get from showing up to one of your practices for an hour and a half and that suddenly they're going to have the secret or the magic to what it's going to take to be able to get the opportunity to work with USA Basketball or to be a head high school coach or to get a college job.

And I think about the vast number of interviews that I've done on here and the number of people that have told me stories similar to that Kobe Altman story about themselves that I showed up and I had to mop the floors before practice every day or I was the guy that was making sure that we always stopped at the players favorite restaurants on road trips and whatever.

All those things I think are the big picture of you've got to understand what it takes to excel in your current role.

And then when you excel in your current role, that's what allows you to get to that next level.

And that's what honestly, that's what I love about the conversations that I'm able to have just in a normal interview episode episode that I do with coaches is everybody has their story of the journey of how they go about, you know, again, I always feel like it's not super easy on a podcast where primarily people are not that you can't watch it on video, but primarily people are listening to it via audio.

And I feel like it's hard to dive into me and you dissecting all the little nuances of ball screen defense.

Yep.

It's really hard to do in an audio format, but I do feel like to your point that maybe there's not a specific question, but if you've listened to X number of our episodes with various coaches, then you've come away with the same takeaway that you just shared Rob, which is that the journey to becoming a successful coach is not about learning how Rob Bros. Gets his team to play fast or it's not learning about three new out of bounds plays.

It's understanding what the journey is all about and how hard you have to work and what are some of the little details that you have to take care of in order to advance.

And if you're doing those things along the way, you're going to pick up some of the X's and O's and the basketball stuff.

And I think it's just interesting because for somebody who's outside of the profession, who is a fan or is a parent or whatever, somebody who doesn't know kind of the inner works of coaching, they always think it's about the basketball and it's about the X's and O's and it's about coach doesn't know how to make it.

Yeah, this coach doesn't know how to make adjustments or.

Right.

You know, what an idiot this guy.

Why is he running these out of bounds plays?

Or doesn't he understand that he should be changing defenses or whatever it is?

And as you've made the point tonight and many times in our conversations in the past and as I've heard so many coaches on here make, that you have to understand the human element of coaching before you can even remotely start to get to the basketball side of it.

And if you don't have relationships, it doesn't really matter how great your X's and O's are because you're not going to get people to buy into it.

Your players are not going to buy into it because they're not buying anything you're selling.

Right.

Because you don't have anything to sell.

You're just out there doing whatever willy nilly.

You haven't invested at all in them.

And I think that's a great point in terms of.

Yeah, it's not.

You can't get the answer to being a great coach in one question.

It's a journey to understanding what that takes.

I've been doing camp now for whatever, 34 years and I have such a greater understanding of what it means to be a good coach just through me sitting and listening to coaches talk to me than I ever did even when I was in it.

Because when you're in it, you're just kind of in it and.

Yeah, whatever.

And, and a lot of times you're just kind of caught in your own little world.

And so I, my world has been expanded so much by just having an opportunity to talk to people like you and people who are in the business helping me to better understand.

And I never would have been able to give the kind of answers or have the kind of understanding that I have now, back, whatever, eight years ago, even though I had plenty of coaching experience at the time, it's just that it's sort of that wisdom of the crowd, right?

And figuring out and hearing so many people's stories.

There's just such value in that.

And I think it's.

Again, it's not a sound bite.

It's a much longer question answer that you're getting in order to figure out how you get to where you want to get in your career.

No doubt.

That's very well said.

Very well said.

Well, we did it, and we are.

Look, we're at it.

We're at an hour.

We're at an hour and five minutes.

Unbelievable.

Rob and I always.

Rob and I always start our podcast with, as we talk, for two minutes before we get started.

We're always like, well, we'll probably go about 25 minutes on the.

On these three topics, and then inevitably we turn around and we're.

I don't think we've been under 45 minutes, maybe ever.

So, no, this is probably.

This is probably on the longer end, but I think there was a lot of value in.

And what we talked about and in your answers.

And again, not a sound bite, but an hour and five minutes of conversation that anybody who listens to this is going to walk away wiser with some ideas and things that they can apply to their coaching, their life, their program, whatever it may be.

And so, again, Rob, can't thank you enough for triple double number 25.

Always great to be on.

Let's.

Let's get 25 more because I got to keep getting those stickers on my helmet.

We got it, man.

We're gonna fill it up and.

And I'm gonna.

I'm gonna get something.

If it's.

If it's not stickers, I'm on it.

It's.

It's a.

It's a project.

So we're gonna.

We're gonna get that, and you're gonna be the.

You're gonna be the leader in the clubhouse, whatever that is.

When a. Plaster them on your wall, they're behind you.

Or we're gonna get a dramatic.

A dramatic backdrop.

I don't.

I don't know what it'll be.

Maybe we'll just.

Maybe we'll make some Jordan stuff.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Who knows what we're gonna do, but I'll figure.

I'll figure something out.

But, yeah, thanks to you, Rob.

I really appreciate it and to everyone out there, thanks for joining us tonight and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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