This episode of Inspiring Salon Professionals features an insightful conversation between Sue Davies and Theresa Foddering, focussing on the importance of mentorship and knowledge sharing within the beauty industry. They discuss the concept of "Leaving The Ladder Down," which emphasises the need for seasoned professionals to support and uplift the next generation of beauty experts and how this can work in both directions.

The discussion delves into the challenges faced by the growing number of solo professionals and the significance of connecting with peers to create growth and collaboration. Theresa shares her journey of creating the Nail Surgery community, where professionals can ask questions and access valuable resources in a supportive environment. With a mix of humour and heartfelt reflections, this episode highlights the changing world of the beauty industry and the vital role of education and community in achieving success.

Theresa Foddering is a prominent figure in the nail industry and joins host Sue Davies to explore the nuances of professional nail and beauty practices and the vital importance of education in this constantly evolving sector. The discussion kicks off with Theresa sharing her experiences as a salon owner and educator, emphasising the rollercoaster journey that many beauty professionals face, especially those operating independently. They delve into the common challenges of managing client relationships, handling bookings, and the overwhelming nature of running a beauty business without a dedicated support system. Sue shares her thoughts on booking systems mentioning the new podcast sponsor Jena, a revolutionary app designed to streamline these processes and helping to minimise stress and workload.

As the episode progresses, the focus shifts to way that beauty education has evolved over the past 20 years, discussing the gaps in knowledge and training that can often leave professionals feeling ill-equipped. Sue takes Theresa through her own less than perfect pathway into industry and the lessons learned along the way and discussing and advocating for a more collaborative approach to education where experienced professionals mentor newcomers. The conversation addresses the need for continuous learning and adaptation within the industry, especially as new products and techniques emerge. Sue's mantra of 'Leaving The Ladder Down' serves as a recurring theme, reinforcing the idea that sharing knowledge and experiences is essential for the growth of the industry as a whole.

By the end of the episode, listeners are encouraged to take proactive steps in their professional journeys, whether through seeking mentorship, pursuing further education, or simply connecting with peers to share experiences and feedback. The episode concludes on an optimistic note, with both Sue and Theresa expressing their commitment to fostering a supportive community within the beauty industry, where professionals at all levels can learn from one another and elevate their craft.

Takeaways:

• Successful salon professionals need to continuously educate themselves to stay relevant in the industry.
• Sharing knowledge and experiences can bridge the gap between generations of professionals.
• Being a brand ambassador requires genuine passion for the products being promoted to build trust.
• Understanding and complying with National Occupational Standards is essential for professional credibility.
• Nail and beauty professionals should seek expert mentorship to navigate the complexities of their field.
• Being part of a supportive community can help professionals feel less isolated in their journeys.

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• [ comfort zone ]
• Louella Belle/Artistic Nails
• Astonishing Nails
• Entity
• OPI
• Lecente
• Jena
• Lustrelash

Please note this transcript is created with the assistance of Captivate's AI so please check spelling and accuracy before use outside of this space.

Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals. The podcast that allows every therapist, now tech and stylist, to level up, build their career and reach for their dreams.

Each episode will be looking at a different area of the industry and along the way I'll be chatting with salon owners, industry leaders and experts who will be sharing their stories on how they achieved their goals, made their successes, all to inspire you in your business and career. I'm Sue Davies, your host, award winning salon owner and industry professional. Welcome to Inspiring Salon Professionals.

Are you a solo beauty professional struggling to juggle everything from the endless client organizing, no shows, double bookings? Or maybe find the thought of a website and building and maintaining it a little overwhelming?

If this sounds familiar, there's a solution built just for you, Jenna. Jenna is an all in one app designed to make life easier for solo beauty pros just like you and me.

It takes care of your bookings, payments and even builds a professional website for you. And best of all, no tech skills needed. No more client, late night messaging, hidden fees or constant stress.

If you're ready to simplify your business and get your time back, check out Jenna Today. Find the link in the show notes and see how Jenna can transform the way you work.

It's going to be really, really good one as I am thrilled to introduce a truly inspiring guest, Teresa Foddering, better known as the nail dresser. And I first officially met Teresa in the lockdown, but we've been in similar circles for a long time.

Over the last few years we kind of connected and have actually become really good buddies and she's helped me with loads of stuff and we, we have quite a lot of long conversations. So if you don't know who Teresa is, she is a bit of a trail blazer in the nail industry.

She is renowned for her multifaceted expertise as a salon owner and educator and is the founder of the new and wonderful nail surgery community on Facebook which I strongly recommend that you take a look at.

With a career spanning innovation education, she makes it her mission to uplift and empower professionals across the sector and is always willing to help people when they reach out to her. But she now does that via the now surgery.

She has been recognized a couple of times on the NHBF's top 100 influencers and I can't remember what number she made.

We will probably discuss it, but she was on the list again this year and her work centers around sharing knowledge, fostering growth and pushing the boundaries of creativity and excellence in nail artistry.

She is passionate about addressing challenges faced by the nail technicians of today and the future and is trying very hard to tackle misinformation about now products and raising awareness about safe practices. And that's kind of Teresa's mantra. She is big on science, big on fact, big on black and white, clear instructional information.

Her dedication to education not only elevates industry standards, but also inspires confidence and skill amongst professionals globally. So today we're going to explore Theresa journey a little bit.

We have a bit of a chit chat about her history and the impact that, that she is having on the nail industry and then we're going to go a bit rogue.

And I think I kind of alluded to this previously and we aren't really going to have any specific questions, we're just going to kind of see where the conversation goes because we have some amazing conversations when we're on the phone and we're going to try and just kind of emulate that a little bit. So I will see you on the other side and I hope you enjoy the conversation. So welcome, Teresa Fodder ring.

It has been a while since I've been trying to get you on here with all of our. Yeah, me being busy, you being busy, you moving. Loving the, the.

My antlers.

Your antlers? Yeah. We decided, didn't we, we were going to do like, we were going to do Christmas and then I can't, I can't get my stuff out of the loft.

So I couldn't get my. I can't even find my Christmas earrings. I know, I've got two pairs of Christmas earrings. Can I find them?

Oh, I don't have Christmas earrings. And then I thought, oh, Sue's bound to have Christmas earrings in. I need something else.

And I'd either got a Christmas hat, like a kid's hat, or I'll steal my little girls antlers. And these are pretty cute.

Yeah, I know. I think they're quite nice. I need. I like those. Unfortunately, they wouldn't really work on my hair because they're just another tiny clips here.

They'd be great.

Do you reckon they'd work?

Yeah, they'd work.

I don't know. Anyway, so today we're like off. We, we have no, no proper agenda, do we? We decided we're just going to kind of see where we go.

They're just privy to our umpteen conversations we have on a. I know we hadn't.

We had a Huge conversation yesterday, which we probably should have saved for today. Yeah.

We decided we were going to kind of do themes more than questions because we have a lot of long conversations around stuff we see on forums and what drives us mad and how we wish the industry still looked and what his future is. And so I think we're going to.

Kind of quite interested about that. You say about, like, the industry differences. Actually, we're. If you don't mind me saying, we're of two different generations.

No.

I'm 65 to 85 generation. Because I'm gen. I'm Genet, Generation X. I'm down there with Billy Idol.

Okay. And I think I'm millennial, which I always hated. I think. I think I fall in there.

And it's something we talk about a lot, don't we, about how we can connect with the next ones down. And I think. Should we. Should we start there? Should we start with leaving the ladder down?

Oh, I love that.

You know that that's such a key phrase that kind of come up as courtesy from a wonderful person that. If you're listening, Debbie Lewis, we love you.

But Debbie Lewis, who is a business coach, Sullen World and Generic Business World, and she works for Nat west now, but she's an amazing mind of business. And she kind of hashtagged that when we was. When I was starting a magazine and she just, like, hashtag like, leave the ladder down.

I was like, can I take that? Because that's just. That's it.

And I think. I think if you remember when you mentioned that to me, I. That's something that's always. That's always resonated with me because.

And I think in any, like, awards things I've ever gone into, and they've talked about like. Or your vision of industry or what you do. What I do in the industry. I've always said I don't. I actually don't work from the top.

I like to work with the people at the. Not at the bottom, because no one's at the bottom, but. And bring everyone up with me.

Yeah.

Be that dictator shouting down.

Yeah.

Saying, you know, you need to come up to up here. I'd rather be with you. And take you with me.

Yeah, I really. Hold your hand out.

Yeah.

Help people find the pathway. And it was. I know when we.

When that when they first come up, we spent how long trying to find images for it and trying to get AI to create images for it. We did spend quite a long time doing that, didn't we?

To get like this perfect image of like what leaving the ladder down was with the light at the top and the dark at the bottom and.

Yeah, and it did.

And I think what we found or like what you found and provided to me really kind of summed up leave the ladder down. And it became like a really big philosophy around the magazine and around a lot of what all of us that, like, what we were doing.

I mean, it's only a year ago. I keep getting flashbacks. The magazine. I know I miss the magazine as well. And who knows where the future is going to go with the magazine.

I don't know. It's still in my to do list, but it's just not. It's not making articles there that have.

Not yet ever been written.

I know.

Ready to be done.

And you know what? And it's. There's. This week has been. It's like the final element of it has happened this week.

And so, like now, because I couldn't do anything until it had formally come to the end of its legal life. And that happened this week. So we'll see what the new year brings. Maybe, who knows, There might be. There might be something in the future.

I don't know. I've got to find time for it.

Whatever it is, I'm there.

I know you are, but. But I think a lot of us that like, you know, the collaborative columnists, and I did.

And I did love how that worked because everybody, you know, yes, obviously people are going to get promoted out of it and people are going to be able to share links and I will be sharing their links and all of that. And. But it's mutual.

And again, it comes back down to that leave the ladder down thing of like, you know, like myself and my business partner created a platform and we could help and bring up people that we knew would help us be able to push out what we were doing, but also helping people that still need that leg up to find a new platform. And it kind of works. It was just such a beautiful concept. And I know so many people really loved what that was all about.

And it is that whole leave the ladder down thing. And it goes.

Whether it's your peers that you're trying to Help and support or whether as an educator, you're trying to help your students, or whether as you know someone that's had a salon for 20 years and you've got all that knowledge, you can help and mentor other people. It, you know, and it is.

And even back the other way when we can have all the Gen Zs who really understand how to do things like tick tock really well, you could help the old people like me.

Well, no, I agree. I think you're not. It's like that whole lifelong learner statement. I remember, I mean it was many years ago.

I won that and I was actually really quite early in my career really when I look back at it, and I won that. And I remember at the time probably where I was younger, I was almost a little bit offended by it.

I was like, I don't understand, I didn't understand what it meant. I think.

Yeah.

Whereas now I'm like, wear that with pride. Like, yeah. I'm a lifelong man. I need to know everything I want to know. You know this.

I want to know the ins, outs, where's, what's, whys so that I with the knowledge to make my own decisions.

Yeah.

And share that knowledge. Definitely not a gatekeeper of secrets. I will tell everyone everything that they need to know.

Yeah, I know. I am, I share far too much.

I used to, I used to always overrun on my, when I was, when I was educating, I always used to overrun because I was forever going, oh, and you just need to know this bit too.

And if you do it this way, then it's going to make it so much easier, you know, and just all those little hints and tips that we've picked up over the years, if any.

Of my students listen to this, they're all going, yeah, she does that too. Because I, you, I can't teach you everything you need to know. Like, I'd love to. And so, I mean, I always say that my students always me forever.

Like you might be finished and ticked off, but I'm here, like, come, come to me if you need something back to me. I've still got educators that I, that taught me I can still go back to.

And I'm sitting in conversation with, you know, you even, even conversations with you. I'd say with it. You don't probably realize that you educate me quite a lot as well. So like I'm always, you're always learning off of one another.

Yeah, this goes back, we talk about this all the time about no longer being in the salon and.

Yeah.

And not having People anymore, not having people around you anymore and just being very on your own. That. What's the term? Solo solopreneur. That's an unusual term though, isn't it? It's a weird one, but it's. It's everywhere now. And I've seen.

I've seen two more salons that I know of in Suffolk, where my salon is not in the same town but in Suffolk, have now shut and gone off on their own and built their.

Cabin at home, becoming a bigger and bigger thing. You know, I know when.

And I know you've listened to the episode because we discussed what you were talking about about the episode, but Steph Stevenson's episode where she was talking about the fact that we get. No, there's no peer judgment and no peer feedback. And that's especially when you're new in career.

It's really, really important that when, if you're in a salon environment, when your client goes to till to pay and you've just done an amazing set of nails on her or an amazing haircut, whatever, whatever this, whatever your modality is that you go to the till and as they walk through the salon, the other clients look because everyone kind of wants to see what. What's happened. And then what happens is everyone talks, everyone says, oh my God, look at that. Look at those nails. Can I have those next time?

And it all. And it's just like a feedback loop that is then missing when you're at home and like.

And then once they've paid and the client's gone and it's like, lunch break. Because don't forget, you should be taking lunch break. Really.

Not that I ever did when I had my salon, I have to say, but I now recognize that that was probably one of the biggest mistakes of my mental health life.

But that, that bit when the, when the stylists or the technicians or the therapists get together back in like the breakout room and you go, oh, my God, that set analysis you just did, so amazing. Can you show me how you did that? And you don't get that when you work on your own.

And I think answers like, I've got. Oh, I've got Sandra in at 2. She wants sugaring. Any ideas like, how, how.

What's the.

What's the better way for me to do that? Sorry, my cough.

That's okay. But it is important, isn't it? I think that because we all. We've all seen. And nowadays, you know, we've all.

Well, if you're on Instagram, I don't live on Instagram very much as we know. But if you're on Instagram, you. You'll sit and watch videos. I mean, if.

Actually, one of the one things I do sometimes it's a bit like sort of like visual ASMR for me is watching Lense videos. It's one of my. It's one of my, My little secrets really. And I will just sit because they're just like, they are mesmerizing and, and. But you.

But it's. It's great because you can kind of see how it's put together. But even when you see that, you still don't understand ne necessarily how to.

Break that down and recreate because everyone learns differently. Everyone has different understandings and steps.

And actually, ultimately there's not one right way I can teach you, or the way I can verbalize something for you, or the way I could tweak it for you. I saw a student yesterday, wasn't one of mine, but she was a lefty.

And I was like, it's a challenge.

So I always, if you're a righty, I'm a solid writing. So. But I always try to show you your way because it's the best way for you to understand. I said I'm not gonna be good at it, but I will try.

So, yeah, there is the conversation, the videos and the online things is great. Definitely, like where you watch it sparks.

Idea more than anything, doesn't it?

It's inspiration. It's brilliant. Yeah, yeah.

But the conversation, not education, camaraderie and the, all the communication, collaboration, all of those things are needed and I think.

It'S something that we've discussed and I know amongst sort of like my peer group who you share many of. It's a massive conversation because so many of us now are working from home and we're on our own.

And, you know, like, the conversation we had yesterday was just like, you know, you and your car driving up to do some education that you were doing. And I probably, you know, and really and truly I should have been doing so many other things. But it's always an interesting conversation.

Like you say you never know what you're going to learn out of those conversations and what's going to inspire you into doing whatever it is you're going to do for the rest of that day. And, and we need to connect more as professionals because we are. I think it's. I don't know what the figure, the exact figure is now.

I think the last NHBF survey had it as something like 67% solo or self employed working. Not necessarily solo space, but even if you're renting a space, you are still in your own bubble to a large degree.

You may end up with that kind of feedback loop happening that gives you that camaraderie thing because you've got people around you. So it's more social.

But I think as a communicating industry, that kind of solo working where the only person you ever speak to is the person that's in front of you having that their nails or their facial or their hair is because you're not, you're not actually talking.

I mean, sometimes, yes, you do talk to your clients and you do have a good relationship where you share stuff, whether people think that's right or wrong, different conversation. But people do share their lives.

And I think probably even more so if you're solo because you haven't got somebody else, you haven't got that team, team member to go, oh God, you know, I had a really bad night last night and I didn't sleep, whatever. So you, as a human, you need to kind of offload stuff.

And I think we're a pack type people. We're not, yeah, solitary animals. We, you know, you, we need people.

Yeah, definitely.

And so therefore I do understand why.

They become our tribe.

Yeah, I do understand that movement. Obviously. I own a salon. I get it, I get it. I mean, I've looked at the electricity bill this morning and I'm like, oh, God's sake. Like.

And I've got a smaller salon than I've had in, you know, all of my career and, and I do understand.

Yeah, same as me. I mean, I've been salon free for three years now and. Yeah, and I miss it.

Yeah, some of it.

I miss some of it. I don't miss all of it.

I mean, I suppose it poses a question is, does it become stagnant? I mean, that's a rhetorical question. I. Do we then just stay there? Do we plateau there?

Are we going to grow any if we haven't got that collaboration with, with our peers, with other people, with. I mean, I know I teach at colleges, you know that.

And getting the girls into work experience is challenging now because there's no salons left and apprenticeships. So some of the students now don't end up attending outside education. I mean, I was in a salon one day a week for a year.

Wow.

When I, you know, back.

No, I did, I did two weeks work experience and I was really lucky.

That was my first year. Two years to two weeks solid. And she Is probably my ultimate mentor now that the son and owner of that. She's now in law, if you're listening.

Oh wow.

She now studies law but she is still someone that I still speak to all the time. Yeah, and, and then, yeah, and then the salon that I did then go and work in, they had multi site. I don't think they do now.

I think they only have one. They're still there. They're right opposite the college that I was training at again. I was in college though for five days.

Yeah, but that's because you were like white tights brigade.

I wasn't. You're one of the last brigade is what I was. Because I didn't. White tights. We had, we had to wear tights and we had clogs and it wasn't a health.

And it was a health and safety risk is what that was because you, you slipped everything and then you had these. And then we had double breasted white dresses and, and the girls, many of the girls, my parents are quite, they're an older generation.

They would never let me shorten my dress. But some of the girls, if they put their arms up, the dress was up in their armpits.

Wow.

But yeah, double breasted. I mean it was a look. It was a look. But you know, I, I think I said this before.

I bring that back, you know, I'd happily bring that back because it gives.

You, it gives you, it gives you a standard and it's like, you know, I think, and I think actually there was a. I was talking of education.

I was on a training this weekend at which like Trev, my husband was like, what are you doing another training course for now? What else is there to learn? And he just, he doesn't get it. He has no concept of. There is still the whole world to learn. I look like I've. Sorry.

I look like I've got like radiant holy grailing down on me.

Holy crap.

But he can't believe. Hang on, where are my hand? Let's put my hand there. Now I just look like a weird.

Person, like taking an oath, taking the.

Oath of salon standards. So for anyone actually listening to this, I'm. I'm in, I'm in my caravan because I can't get in the house and going on.

And so the sun is moving around the caravan and I'm literally getting blinded by light. So I put my hand up to try and block it because it's doing weird things to the screen for people that are watching on video.

And now I just look like I'm taking the oath of allegiance to the. To the industry now Teresa's doing the same. Sorry, text. I've forgotten what I was saying. Yeah. Training.

So I was doing a trade on the weekend, a church. Just can't understand why I need to continue training and I don't know where I was going with that. I've lost the plot.

I've been distracted by the light. I've been distracted by the shiny.

It's a thing, you know, shiny, shiny things in your. Yeah, well, yeah, I think it's just. Well, it's changed, it's evolved. I'm all here for the evolution of education. I'm here for everything modernizing.

You carry on talking. I'm gonna go and close that bit of code.

The more time I've spent in fe, which I'm really, really, really passionate about. Everyone knows how passionate I am about fe.

Yeah.

But I mean. Yeah, the girls are now. Well, girls, boys, they're. They're now taking.

Is it two day, two days, maybe three, two and a half days sometimes to do what I was doing over five days in a year.

Yeah.

And there's something has to give when that happens. A lot is relying on them doing stuff at home actually. And that's what their kits are there for. But. But some of them aren't that interested.

It's a very minority that are that interested in doing at home. And then actually getting them to a uniform is. Is hard actually to. Getting them to. To have pride in their professional appearance.

Yeah.

I was a bit of an. They knew. They knew I was a bit fussy if I was teaching.

Yeah.

Well, can't remember why.

I mean I still get quite irritated. I say quite. I get really irritated. Quite is. Is an understatement by.

You know these beautiful salons that you see and they got amazing images on their website so on their socials and then the tech's got their hair hanging. You know, we've noticed respect. Your hair looks lovely today.

But they have their hair in salon like yours is currently they don't understand that that's a risk on many levels and. And also isn't professional standard.

And it's part of the reason that I have my hair like this because even if I have my hair long over my career it's just been hooked back. So like I do this because I can and I like having short hair but when I have long hair it's just tied back anyway. So like why have to me.

Why have it just chop it off.

But it's probably because Again, the focus on the education of that is that they're. They're just taking it as. It's a fuddy duddy way of life. And, you know, we had to look that way.

But actually there was safety there, there was hygiene there as the reason why we always had our hair up and not the big dangly earrings and the reindeer antlers and things.

I got. I got told. I can't remember where it was now. I think it might have been my old boss, Rachel might.

Actually, when I first started working with her, and she was quite in standards, because she'd helped write them and she used to think if we had. If, if we went on. I mean, I wasn't even employed by her, I was just like, working in her space. I was just sort of like, yeah.

At the time, it's going back a long time. I was on commission. But she wouldn't let you go into the salon.

If you could get a pen, if you had something that was a sleepery kind of earring, if you could get a pen through it, you could wear.

Yeah.

And. And that's the. And that's the standard, because anything longer than that, you could get hooked and it could ever. I mean, it's.

To me, it's quite obvious what the dangers of that are. But. But there's so many little bits and pieces like that, isn't there, that are kind of. That are slipped and that don't seem.

To be seriously fundamental foundations. Again, I don't know how many times when speaking to students, I've, guys, you're learning this, right? And they're like, yeah.

And like, look, I haven't done that since I've left college.

Yeah.

But if I didn't learn that, I wouldn't be able to do this.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it's. It's foundations, it's. Yeah, the foundations are wobbly. They're a bit blurry now.

Yeah. And I think as well, something we were talking about yesterday is the fact that we know that we are. We're a creative industry.

It doesn't matter what part of the salon sector you are in, you will have an element of your role that is creative, whether, if you do nails, it's going to be a lot of creative. If it's hair, it's a lot of creative. And if it's beauty, there's going to be elements of creativity to it.

Maybe, you know, skincare isn't quite creative, it's much more productive and that you're trying to get an out.

Yeah, but.

But if you're doing makeup or brows or anything like that, it's still creative. And so that, that kind of pushes we get like we've got huge amounts of the industry that are neurodivergent.

But we also have an issue and this is something that we talk about a lot, isn't it Teresa, about this? And it's a phrase that Sam Marshall kind of gave to me of unconscious demotion.

And the schools do it to us because, and I know this from personal experience of having a very good friend of mine who works as a high level LSA in a secondary school and she knows that their career department for girls that are less academically able, they will push them into our industry because of the now compulsory have to be an education or apprenticeship until the age of 18, 19. They have to do that.

Put that two years of post 16, which gives us a whole cohort every year of potential, potential professionals that have no connection to the industry, that don't want to be in it really. And they're kind of being forced into it and then when they finish they kind of think, well, I know I've got these skills now, best go and use them.

And we, and we are seeing the impact of that coming into industry, aren't we?

Because we aren't, you know, and it would not just say that you've got to be five, you know, you've got to be an A star student to be in the beauty industry. You definitely do not have to be. And I think it's one of the things we should embrace is that we are inclusive and diverse.

There is a definite issue with the fact that we just don't have people that connect with how this, what, what is expected, what the standards are and how you need to work to maintain those standards.

There's a definite. Again, if going back to fe, there's, there's, there's your level ones, your twos and your threes. There's a very vast difference in those levels of.

You see the, the journey that those students go through. If they, if they've gone in it coming at one and they've ended and they've ended at three. Yeah, they creme to the creme actually.

Yeah. Because they're committed.

Yeah, They've, they've, they want to be there. They've seen, seen the light. I've, I've had, I've got one particular. You know, I loved her, but she was a nightmare. She was forced, thrown into.

You're a nightmare. I can't teach you.

Get out of school, get in a year One you, you go there, she sits there in the corner, arms crossed, not interested, angry at everyone. She was not interested in, in anything. Do you know, the frustrating thing is she was really good. She had so much skill and she.

If she just applied herself and I'd like to think that actually, I don't know if she actually passed in the end because she just didn't commit, but if she did, I mean, I never saw them through on that last bit, but if she did, hopefully, maybe it's something she revisits later in life, which is a definite perk of this industry because it is great to fit around family life and it is a beautiful craft to have. But yeah, she was a real kind of picture of exactly what you're saying there. She was thrown in, forced in.

We don't want you here, we'll throw you in over there.

Yeah, because they'll take you.

Yeah.

Because they.

Because that industry, people like you, it's just, it's just nails.

Just.

Yeah, it's just makeup, it's just beauty, it's just. No, actually there's a lot of science, there's a lot of anatomy, there's.

I've got to start selling my tea. I've got a whole T shirt range of like merchants.

Let's do it.

I know. I think they're actually on redbubble already. You guys search for them. I just haven't sold any.

And so, you know. And I know again, as an educator, I see that all the time. Why? Why do I need to know that? I don't need to know that.

You're going to need to know that when you gonna. It arrives at your desk later and you don't know how to deal with that, you're going to come back at me and go, yeah, can you tell me that now? Sorry.

Or. I didn't know what to do.

I should have been paid attention.

Yeah. So. And, and many of them will actually open, admit, especially the level threes. They will always admit. Yeah.

This is a lot more than I thought it was going to be. I, I was going to just, just turn up, just paint nails, get my nails done and have a nice day and go home.

Yeah.

Whereas actually, no, the reality is quite different.

And, and you know, and there's theory and there's exams and there's anatomy and you're going to learn the body in Latin and you're gonna have half your eyebrow accidentally ripped off because you're still learning. And.

Yeah.

Pathway in. And you know, and again, I wouldn't change it though. I absolutely wouldn't change that path.

You can't learn.

I just, when I was just interviewing JM From Jenna the other day and we, and his, his, one of his quotes that he, we spoke about was about failure is. I can't remember what it was now, but it was about failure being used as if you fail twice, you've made.

If you, if you fail twice, you've made a decision to continue failing. Basically, if you keep going, if you keep repeating what you failed on and you don't learn the lesson.

And I think this is like, we have to, we have to recognize that failure and not ripping someone's eyebrow off. God, you're never going to do that again. Yeah, that's one of the biggest lessons in beauty. Oh, dear. I took someone's eyebrow off.

I'm never doing that again. The same as I did. I did one when I first had, when I first had my salon.

I decided in the build up to having my salon that I needed to be able to do everything that was going to be on my menu, even though I'd never done most of it before. And I decided that was what that was going to be. So whoever was working with me, if they had a day off, I'd be out of COVID anything.

And up until that point, I was a holistic therapist. So I did massage, aromatherapy, Indian head massage, massage, and a few other sort of CPD parts of that. And I was a nail technician.

So I decided I went off and did level two facials, went off and did level two waxing. I'd already done brows and spray tan and that kind of stuff, so I had quite a broad spectrum already. But I didn't have facials and waxing.

So I went off, did the courses, qualified, everything was fine. And my lovely cousin who was working with me was a really proficient waxer.

And I learned so much from her because her, her technique was just amazing. So I learned loads and loads and loads. And one of my existing clients, I had to do a bikini wax in the salon.

And I hadn't broken my cherry kind of thing on doing a bikini wax in the salon. And it was like late on a Saturday afternoon and my cousin had had to leave early.

And it was one of my regular clients who'd been with me for a long time, Lover Laura. Oh, she. Yeah. And she said to me, look, I'll, I'll be, I'll be like, you guinea pig. Like, you need to get over this.

Because I had this fear of, like bikini waxes, like a lot of people do when you first train. Oh, dear. And I put the wax on, put the strip on. Because I wasn't hot waxing at that point. Put the strip on. Nothing happened.

Oh, no.

And I tried to take the strip off and the strip came away and the wax stayed and bit of the wax came off and. And then I just had cooling wax on her bikini area. It's just like.

And was it actually strip wax or was it strip wax?

All right, strip wax. And I was in the sun on my own. I had. No, I hadn't. And this is the thing, I had no peer support.

Yeah, I've. So I've. I've salvaged many waxing incidents and I just, I.

And thank, I mean, thank goodness I'd known her for a long time and I knew her because her other half worked with Trev for a couple of years. So we kind of. We were quite well connected. And she was like, just don't worry. And you know, it's like you get. You can feel yourself.

You could feel the heat rising, you could feel the sweat starting. And I'm like, what do. I just didn't know what to do. And my training hadn't prepared me because it doesn't, does it? You know, in training.

Unless that happens.

Unless that happens in, in, in, like in situation in the college, you know, they might have said to me that, you know, if this happens, you can do that. But I might not have been paying enough attention that day. Or I just thought, oh, I mean, you can't.

You definitely can be educated. And I think that's the rule for everything. Even still now, today, you can't be educated in every scenario because it is. Or it's indefinite like this.

Millions of nail types, there's millions of coatings, there's different application methods, there's different, you know, waxes, there's different types of wax now, there's different methods of waxing now.

It was, it was so horrendous. So I sort of. I just thought, well, I'll just. Because I know you can put the wax strip back over. So I tried that. What I, what I didn't do was wax.

It was. Try and take it off in the opposite direction kind of thing. I didn't do opposite direction.

Right.

Was what I think. I mean, it's a long time ago. It's like 13 years ago, so I can barely. I can't really recall it that well, other than just like the sheer of it.

You wax. In the end, there was a lot of wax solvent.

Oh, no.

I cut some of it. Honestly, it was. It was truly awful.

And thank goodness she was someone that was known to me really well, because had that been a nuke, I mean, could you imagine if that had been a new client? Just, wow. But it's one of the dangers of being on your own.

And I think that as much as, you know, you and I both enjoy the fact that we can have the flexibility of working from home and all that kind of stuff, it does come with the challenges that I'm describing. And that day was awful. And poor. My poor client went home. She said, just, you know what? You've done as much as you can do. It's fine. And the thing is.

And I kind of did a lot more of the wax and it was fine, but this whole clump of. I just couldn't get it off, and it just congealed. It was awful. And she went, I'm just going to go home.

I'm gonna have a nice hot bath and it'll all be okay.

And I messaged her back, still swear, sit in a hot bath. Not ideal, but, you know, just, honestly, it was.

It was one of my biggest learning curves. And. And on the Tuesday or whenever it was, the next time I saw my client, my cousin was like, carly, what on earth did I do? How.

How can I make sure that never, ever happens again? Because it was one of the worst professional experiences of my career. And it's still. I mean, I have some.

And I don't get the full anxiety effects of it now, but I still feel so. I think. What, you just can't believe that you did something? And it wasn't even I did something wrong.

It's just that I didn't know what to do when that situation happened. I did. I. I applied my waxes. I always would have applied my wax. And something in that.

In that moment on that bit of wax with that strip, the connection didn't happen. And I didn't know how to work with that. But, you know, I learned my lesson. It never happened again.

I think the problem. It's not a problem. I don't want to say problem because I hate the word problem, but challenge.

Yeah.

The challenge that's upon us now is social media. Everyone knows I say this every time. All we're seeing is perfection.

Yeah.

So again, when teaching students, and actually students of the age of 17 or even the ones that are 37, they all are looking at social media and they believe that's how it is and it's perfect. Well, we're not sharing real life. We're not sharing the times that the wax does get stuck. We're not sharing a time where.

I mean, there is obviously sensitivities of what you can and can't share on social media, of course, but I'm going to probably share someone's lady area there. But now that's just the statute of perfection. So, again, student I spoke to yesterday, she. She learned her craft over a very short space of time.

Three different methods in a very, very, very tight time, and she expected to actually just be able to do it. And I said to her, it's not as easy as you thought, is it? And she's like, no, really not. No, it's not. It's.

This is going to take practice from you now. And I said, and your liquid and powder there. I spent actually two weeks solid training and then had the rest of the year to learn that.

And then actually when I finished college, I hated liquid and powder so much, I never did it again.

See, now I still. I love it.

Oh, no, I do do it now, but I hated it that much. It took me about two years to master it. And we were in the very strong wag way of life back then. You know, big pink and white.

Oh, lovely. But you know what? I'm loving it. They're coming back. I love extenders. Last night and. And Kim had beautiful set of like almond pink and whites on.

I was just like, oh, yeah, almond. But back then, we're talking about like the Tanya Turner, predominantly.

Oh, God, yeah. I used to do my sister, although I have decided. Used to use prime impressions. French tips. Yep. Because I've just. I wasn't that good now.

Do you really.

No, I like.

Not pro impressions. Pros is great. But I meant the. The tips. You don't see the. No.

And I think very shortly after that, I just started scar just. I just sculpted and I've never. I've never. I left them behind, actually.

I think they were probably all still there when I sold it, like three years ago because. Just didn't use them. But my sister used. I was going to say my sister used to have. Sorry, interrupting. All right, stop doing that.

My sister used to have prime pressions tips and we used to literally cut, you know, like you had like, you know, we had 0 to 10 on the back. Like your little numbers. We literally used to cut the numbers off they were about an inch and a quarter long and that's.

That's how I learned to do acrylic. That's how I mastered my acrylic application. Because getting.

Let's use that analogy right there though. Right. So you trained that way, that's how you did it.

Yeah.

If you did no other training. Because you train now, Right? Oh yeah. If we're going to take the general consensus now you've trained the one.

My training. Yeah, I did, I did. Shall tell you what training I did just so you could. Just so we can see how well trained I was initially. I did.

I won't name, I won't know. She actually went on and it did end up with a full VTCT center. But at the time I trained with her, I paid 175 pounds including kit.

Which actually to be fair, I mean, I know it's not forever ago, but actually it's 22.

Only 23 years ago I trained.

Yeah, you. Back then that would have been a lot more money. Whereas actually now that's a standard kind of deal now.

Yeah, but. But at the time the other courses were about three to five hundred pounds.

Yeah.

So she was quite cheap and it was only over two days and it was closer to me because I couldn't. And back then I was having to look in my local newspaper online wasn't really a thing. I went and it was £125 without the kit or £175 with the kit.

So I had a big decision to make. Again. What.

I don't know if people do without kits now. I don't know. I don't know.

But I could, I could have done it without the kit but when I got there and I didn't realize and when I got there, my kit, she was still decanting my kit from her big brown bottles into small brown unlabeled bottles and I. And I didn't know. I didn't know. How would I know? I did. I had no clue. So I probably.

She wasn't necessarily doing anything, particularly at.

That point in evolution. Yeah, there's been a lot of evolution.

Learning, there's been innovation.

I think it probably evolved very.

Yeah.

We'Re doing now will be frowned upon later.

But I was one to one. I had a one to one. But her one to one involved this. I'm going to give you a Demonstration.

This is how you, how you prep her nose, how you stick a tip on. This is how you apply product or how you do prep and then how you apply product. And then she went and she showed me.

She watched me do one now pretty badly probably. And then she went off to go and do a client and that was my education. And then I had to go back. So I had a whole day of doing.

So it took me like all days to do a set of 10 nails that my lovely friend sat with me and had done. And then I had to go back a couple of weeks later and do my infield training and it, I mean it was awful.

And she had somebody else there that day doing their first day and I was teaching them, I was teaching them after doing one day because she, the woman had disappeared again. And this girl was just sat going, I don't know how to do this. So I said, oh, well, I know.

I mean, I'll be completely honest, I've put, I'm teaching the blind back in the day because obviously I've had my salon a long time. I've had again, we're going to go back years.

Staff that I've trained and then all I've done is then sent them on their one day course to get the certificate.

Yeah.

And they have taken the lesson in the end because the educator did exactly the very same thing and went outside and let them do it. So. And my staff member came back going, I can't believe it. She did this. So I did that and obviously I was transferring all of my knowledge to her.

Yeah, it was, it was a long, long time ago. But like I said, the point of my story there. Yeah, that training.

Yeah, that's it. I had bad, yeah, pretty, pretty shoddy training.

But you wouldn't have known that. And that wasn't your fault.

I didn't know that.

That's not your fault that you've chosen that training. That was the decision that you made with the information that you had.

Yeah.

Why do you need to train again?

I didn't really, I didn't do anything anymore.

I went to a trade show shortly after, then got very excited about glitter and bought a lot that I've actually still got in my kit now I've still got some. It's so easy. Oh my God. I was just so. I was just overwhelmed by glitter and nail art.

And then my sister saw those tips and was like, I want my nails that long. I mean, she had really long natural nails anyway. And I used to have to cut her very Long natural nails off to put the tips on and. But I did.

So I had to learn how to. I mean I did have other people that I did work that I did nails on as well. But she was where I honed my craft because to create a.

Now that length, you know how hard that is and, and as a, as a newbie and as a, you know, someone that is like still trying to learn and still getting lifting and trying to understand the like the balance.

What you wouldn't have had then is the forums that we have today.

No head now geek. I used to go on now Geek a lot.

Oh yeah, that doesn't exist now.

Yeah. And I got told lover Gigi Rouse. Yeah, well, I mean she is, she's always been very honest, forward and gives her opinion freely.

Sometimes it's welcomed and sometimes probably less so by people. But I can remember being on there and being like. And she responded to something that I'd written just going, I can't believe this.

I've got whatever it's lifting or there's this problem or that problem. I can't. What it was.

And I was really trying to do like enormously long nails and Gigi and it obviously resonated and it stayed with me for whatever it is, like 20 plus years. And she said, and she said, you will not be proficient until you have. She said, you've done a thousand sets of nails.

And at the time I took that as like a thousand full sets of nails.

Over the years I've kind of taken that to a thousand sit downs with clients because I think that in that thousand sit downs with clients, you'll do infills, you'll do rebalances, you'll do repairs.

You'Ll do full proficient from your date, your training, which again we're finding, like I said, everything's changed. So I know there'll be students who say, well, my education was rubbish because I left there and I couldn't do it just perfectly like that.

Yeah, well, no, you've got, you've got.

Practice but actually got work. Yeah.

You've actually got to learn and you've got to perfect that and you've got to gain experience. Yeah, yeah. And see those different now types.

And obviously this isn't just now, this is in every service you do, whether it's lifts, brow tints, all of those things. But. And then there's going to be then students that write it off because they didn't learn it straight away.

Yeah.

Or actually some that actually just learn it that way and never change and then when there's a big problem, if they're going to keep, they don't upskill any and they don't evolve and learn and pick up new skills and the techniques and advance on that.

Yeah. And I think though that sometimes that comes with like, because I didn't do anything to change that.

I mean, I used to go on now Geek and I'd ask questions and feel stupid because everybody else on there was like so perfect, which is, is really like the old, like the sort of 20 years ago version of what Instagram does to you now is like you go on there and there's always people putting all these amazing comments and photos and whatever on there of all of their perfect nails because they're only going to put their best set on there, aren't they? I sit looking at people's galleries, just being so envious that I couldn't do that.

And yeah, just watching all these people learn and I started to spend a lot of time on geek learning.

I didn't do any other training other than just kind of conversations on Geek until I went to work in Rachel Myatt salon, who was at the time, she was like a really big educator. She was one of the biggest now lot companies in the country and she was one of the original people I looked at doing my training with.

But her training was about £750 and I couldn't afford it. And then pretty handily by twice.

So yeah, could have trained there in the first place, I could have, but.

I didn't because I just couldn't afford it and it was like I was, I wasn't working, I was a mum at home, two kids and I had no disposable income really to pay for it.

So £750 was probably, I don't even know it was, I mean it wouldn't have been like a month's wages, but it was, it was probably about a quarter of what I used to earn a month. So it's a lot of money, so I couldn't afford it. So anyway, I ended up working for her.

But the education I got through her just from being in her salon, like you say, like we've been taught by the salon owner who's been at it for a long time and she was, she was a good educator and I used to sit in on all of our training courses and she let me basically just be around all of her education and I did my level two, level three, yeah. And I was very, very fortunate that I managed to be in the right place at the Right time.

But it does seem to be like, say you're very fortunate to have ended up there. But again, when speaking, you know, I speak to so many pros.

I'm like the person to message when something goes wrong or you need to know an answer to something. They've learned the. They've trained the once. They don't want to train again. No, I don't know. I always use this as an example.

I don't know how many times I've taken my manicure qualification, but it's a lot. I think it's a four. I think.

I think I've done two or three.

I've taken my manicure qualification. And also you pick up different things from different trainers, like little tips and tricks from other educators as well.

So, I mean, some of the courses I teach are beginners courses and there are existing pros that take that beginner's course because that beginner's knowledge didn't exist when they were a beginner.

So, yeah, like me.

And that's not a demotion of their status of where they're at today. That's a replenishment of an upskilling and getting up with the times with. And being more fueled with that knowledge. So.

But it does seem to be a fire to fan at the moment, is you learning the once and then off you go. You can't do that. The importance of. In my membership group, obviously someone asked, well, why do I need. Why do I need to do cpd?

Yeah, what's the point in that?

I think as well, there's been a confusion because there's a company called CPD which I think has muddied the water. And then there is cpd. And CPD is only something you can do once you've got a foundation qualification.

And it kind of leads us into accreditation, regulated qualifications and all that stuff. Because CPD is, is accredited, but it is separate from accredited foundation training. It's a completely different thing.

You can't do CPD because CPD is continued professional development. So you have to have taken some professional development to be able to continue it. There's a clue in the name.

It's not discussed. And I will say it's actually, funny enough, very rarely discussed in regulated. I'm not. Everyone's the same. There's.

There's no definite box that fits all there. I work with many colleges and everyone does everything ever so slightly differently.

But yeah, there is the CPD like you say and then there's your accredited and then there is your regulated and actually accredited hasn't always been around.

No.

I used to do that and at that point the A was quite busy and then I recall the Guild and ABT kind of forming and for me that was kind of when things started shifting because they were linked within. I mean although the ant had insurance, it wasn't. We weren't authorizing people to teach based on that insurance and their membership with us.

And I think that's when it changed. The ABT and the Guild then kind of authorized people to teach courses via their insurance kind of thing.

And that's to me and I, I can't remember the exact nuances of it all, but they did very, very affordable membership within which you could be insured. And they would ensure they're called the people that taught their courses or talk with their accreditation.

They would, they would authorize people and accredit people to teach and then they would insure those courses. And it kind of then started locking together, didn't it that you had to have the insurer, you had to have a course. They, they kind of.

The accreditation was sort of in the middle of all of that and that kind of.

There's still a bit of a hangover from that now that some insurers won't insure you unless you've done the course of the accrediting company that they insure. That sounds really complicated.

We need a whole new book, I think. Yeah. It's, it's hard. I, I many of my courses I don't mind who knows this because there's nothing wrong with it.

Many of the courses I've taken because I've been around before the accreditation.

Yeah.

Movement don't have. They're effectively probably CPD because I already had the foundation training from my regulated workshops. Yeah. But anyway they were training.

There were qualifications of treatments that didn't, I hadn't learned. They were, they were new treatments and they weren't accredited.

And some of some of those brands that I've got qualifications with have only instated accreditation actually after lockdown because they were a status.

If you determine yeah. Then.

And if you trained with us, you don't need to.

You don't actually need anything else and something good.

I'm surprised the course is accredited because you don't. You don't have to. I'm like, no, I know. But I do actually believe in the process, however. So I'm.

I'm doing it because I do believe accreditation needs to exist. You need.

Yeah. And you need. I think for me, accreditation. It should. And this is a big should. It should be about checks and balances and making sure that the.

Provide the education provider is providing a quality education with support that's there as at the point of booking during the course and post qualification or post certification. Because it isn't. There's a difference between qualification and certification.

Yeah. But it makes a standards that's uniform across the board, which would then standardize. I don't know.

Standardized. Does it?

Yeah, it would certainly.

This is our problem.

Yeah. I don't like the word. But it would then mean that anyone teaching a course would have to meet that standard.

But now it's just muddy water because we've got people who have learned. If. Let's just say you. The course that you discussed earlier, you didn't know any better. That's what it was.

Had no idea.

Then teach a course exactly the same way.

Actually now you could do that after a couple of years, whereas back then you had to be an educator for a professional for at least five at one point before you.

Yeah.

So it's changed again now that bar has been lowered. But. But there are more resources on Bible. So I am here for it. It's fine. But you pass that knowledge on. So what we're actually.

It's like Chinese whispers.

Yeah.

You're passing on. And I'm fighting that quite a lot. I'm trying to somewhat keep up with the Joneses and the demand of it.

Has someone today, someone asked today what course do I train with? It has to be accredited. Which is an interesting statement. And I thought I don't have time. Was coming on this podcast.

I don't have time to answer you right now. To give you all the information that you need. And then.

And then I will say it's been a bellowing amount of comments of I've gone here and I've gone there and I've gone here and I've gone there. I can't fight that.

The thing is. Because the tide's going to keep coming, isn't it? And I think that's the difficulty. But. But also. And let's just like do a very quick rundown.

I know my first podcast episode was with Donna Clayton and we did do a whole episode on the different versions of education. So let's just do a quick one. So like, we start at the top. Regulated.

Well, can I stop you there though?

Okay.

Yeah, you are right. It sits at the top, as in the most upstood qualification.

But sometimes it's the only one that's a true qualification.

The only one that's a true qualification. You are right, because it's a regulated qualification and it'll be.

Have the titles of diplomas and levels and MVQs and BTCTs in it, like those titles.

And. Yeah, yeah, they qualify.

Yeah, off, off call and that.

Yeah.

And they can also though, be delivered. They're only as good as the person that's delivered.

Absolutely. Every course is only as good as the person delivering.

Delivering it. And I will say, and if. If City and Guilds want to by all means restart this conversation, I welcome it with open arms.

Because they put the phone down on me. Happy to talk about it. I know.

I rung them because I was teaching a sitting in Guilds course and I was struggling with what I had the guidebook and I'm like, okay, but this term doesn't exist anymore.

Yeah, it's.

It's called this now with in nos.

Yeah, nos. Right now we had this conversation, didn't we? Because the NOS changed and regulated qualifications have still three years on. Not caught up.

Because they only update only so often.

But anyway, they could have told me that instead of putting the phone down on me and I wasn't being rude and I meant I've been quite firm, admittedly. I know, I know how I deliver things. I was factual. I just wanted an answer. How do I deal with this? Because I'm struggling with my students.

Because what I'm. Effectively, what you're asking me to do is say, right, guys, this is actually what it's called.

But when you come to write your exam, can you just write this because you'll pass and. But then throw it out the window.

Yeah.

And that was a gut wrenching way of going.

I remember the phone call.

Yeah. Because, you know, I contacted you and I was like, I need to speak to people, I need to speak to other people. What am I doing here? I don't.

I can't get my head around it.

It is so wrong.

And so. So then as much as I do genuinely believe in that route of education, it doesn't fit everyone, though.

No, it doesn't.

It needs to be accreditation, there needs to be training that you don't have to go to college. You can go and do courses that fit around your families that where you.

Because ultimately, you know, as women we want to do fit this around our families and children and squeezing in between our day jobs. So it becomes then what becomes a side hustle then becomes our main career and you can excel. Yeah, these things do need to exist.

We don't need to only go through that route, but it is a great way to set a really good foundation.

And I think as well.

And if you want to like not that employment is a massive thing nowadays, but if you do want to go down the employed route or if you want to go and work on cruise ships or if you want to go and work internationally, you will in most instances need to have a regulated qualification. Yeah. And so it may be something that you come to later once you've got your. Your foundation education. You know, and there isn't if you've.

And like we were just saying it isn't necessarily accredited training can be amazing, particularly in nails because it's. It was kind of the way that now education was mainly delivered and it's so it's kind of grown in that way with beauty. I think probably less so.

I think the main route always into beauty was by going to college and doing a course and doing your regulated.

Become very compartmentalized now it's like become a niche each now you're either a waxing specialist, you're a facialist, that's it.

So I mean it has changed so much, hasn't it?

But I think that the beauty courses, I think and probably because you are used especially with things that happen now, you are likely to be penetrating the skin, you are likely to be doing something that is going to be invasive or semi invasive. And so when you start looking at that we all know regulations changing around it and that that's going to be happening in the next couple of years.

So that's when regulated qualifications are really going to stand you in good stead because you everybody they are the standard insurers. Like regulated donate they sadly they do like regulated and it's one of those things, not that they don't take credited.

But I wanted to out there the thought process. Just the question of to in to encourage thought. Yes, right. But I would love to need to pull someone in from an insurance company.

I'd love to speak to someone and actually know their expertise into the checklist of that course.

We know that that did. Yeah. There's nobody, I don't believe every insurance company or every underwriter. No, they're not going to know our industry.

And so they are just, they can only go by the nos and they can only go by the fact that it should be regulated and it should be all these things and it, and if it's accredited it should meet these standards. And it's just where everyone.

Regulated qualifications haven't quite adjusted to the current NOS standards has, which is amazing because you got a bit more control over it when you're accredited training. You're building it yourself. Yeah, yeah, I'd love to, I'd love to, I'd love to pin someone.

It's a really, it's a big dilemma, isn't it?

Something happens, they cause an issue for a client who decides to take legal action.

So the insurers come in and in the tradition of how the assessors look at these things, the assessors will look at it and say, okay, so did the person that's created the problem do their due diligence? Are they well trained, are they qualified and have they done their due diligence?

So the first thing they're going to check is like, because they do look at, are they working to national Occupational Standards? Well, it's okay because they've got a regulated qualification they took a year ago, so they must be.

But we know the double edged sword of that is that that regulated qualification isn't too standard at this point and I do wonder because they like assessors are going to be in a very gray area because if they understand that the qualifications that are being issued currently aren't meeting the nos, then could the, could the, the awarding bodies actually be pulled into account because they're actually qualifying people and setting them up to fail? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, no, I, but I mean it's.

A really weird question, but no, it's.

Good and I think these questions need to be asked, I think they need to be voiced.

I think, you know, people need to be, have these thought process to be able to make their own decisions and their own, to help make them make a decision as to what training they're going to choose to take, where they're going to go. They should be able to ask these questions to any training provider. So at the moment they align with what they're trying to achieve at the moment.

If you want or need a regulated qualification, I would do that, but I'd also read the nos so that you've done your due diligence and adapt your. And adapt your working practices.

They know that it exists. If they know it exists or if.

They know it exists. The nos, National Occupational Standards. You can look it up on Google.

Oh, no, I know you can, but if you don't know it's there.

But I hope anyone listening to this now, they can go and look at.

The NOS that's there for any industry. It's not just everything. The national standards for any.

If you do lawn mowing for a living, there'll be a National Occupational Standard for it.

Making coffee here.

Yeah, there is. There probably is, though, for baristas, anyway.

If you hold a certificate that entitles you to teach lifelong learning skills, you can go to any accredited company, show them your wares and they will accredit you. Some of them won't look at anything you provide them and they'll still accredit you.

Others will go through it with a fine tooth comb, depending on the quality and standards of the accrediting body that you go to.

Yes.

And so it's a mixed bag. And like the Guild, for example, some.

Will charge you hundreds, some will charge you 50 quid.

Yeah. And also trees are like, do you know what? I've got a really good idea. Why don't you and I start our own accrediting company?

Yeah. How scary is that?

Because we could literally have that idea today and we could start accrediting people tomorrow. And that's the downside to accreditation. I mean, although saying that if trees and I did that, it'd be a bloody good accrediting company.

Oh, I'd want kidneys. I'd want kidneys.

I'm sorry, it would be.

There'd be.

Have to be six dots on every eye and 30 crosses on every T.

And it'd have to be perfectly aligned in the center.

Yeah, very well aligned. But we would.

But if you've got people like us creating an accredited company, then you would have high standards and you would not get through our systems without thorough checks and balances. But that Isn't the same for every accrediting company.

And some are now even providing their own teaching qualifications to enable you to teach via their accrediting company.

Do you know just something. I'm just mentioning it just because it's just coming to my mind. Did you know you can actually go on to Etsy?

I'm not inviting people to do this by the way.

I don't do this.

Yeah.

But it just blew my mind as I realized it existed that you can go on and buy a course, written, editable course because it has already been approved by an accredited insurer or whatever. So all you need to do is just change your titles and put your own branding on it and it would therefore be approved.

Yeah.

Been pre, pre approved and previously approved. I mean that really blew my mind.

Handy if you're short on time.

Be very. Yeah, I just like. I mean I don't actually think it has actually been pre approved to be sold on. On Etsy but I think it's been.

It would be like me having a template I've written. Yeah. That I've written and then I've just made it available to anybody and now you can edit it. Yeah. I mean again, I do see some room there.

I see some room if we had some standards and some things that we all were all aligned with because then we'd all be teaching from the same book.

But then to a degree that's what the guild has done, isn't it, with gti is that they've created their template.

Yes, yes, yes, they have. Yes, you are right.

And that's basically their. That is their model.

And I think to a degree it's good because then if you take a Guild course, you know that you're going to be taught the same thing whether you teach it, whether I teach it, whether Joe down the road teaches it. You're going to get the same information provided to you.

You won't get the same delivery or the same experience being shown or the same hints and tips and troubleshooting or whatever that educators learn over maybe a year of being an educator as opposed to someone that's been educating for 10 years or been a professional for 30 years. There's going to be a difference in delivery.

Yeah.

But accredited. It's a can of worms. It really is a can of worms. Good worms and bad worms.

It's almost a fight for the fire Beware. Fight for the top anymore. No, it's not a fight for the top of the ladder that you and I love. It's the. It's the race to the bottom now.

Yeah, but it's been going that way for a long time, hasn't it? And, yeah, and I think it's. I do think it's a shame, but I do, I think with accredited qualification, accredited certifications, it is really.

Buyer beware. Do your due diligence, make sure. And if you're doing brand education, make sure that the brand does what you need them to do.

Make sure what you want, what you need.

Yeah. Don't just go because someone online said, oh, yeah, here's a link. I love them, they're the best. I think they're amazing.

Just because they think they're amazing doesn't mean they're going to fit what it is you're trying to achieve.

And you've got to do your due diligence and make sure that a, the brand is providing reputable, two standard products that they are providing you with support for your business, with support for your education before, during and after. Because. And it's one of the things Teresa and I talk about quite a lot is the fact that we see across.

And it is, I do think it is so much more in nails than any other part of the industry. It's just that you just get a course, however, however long, it doesn't, it doesn't matter what the course is.

But when you do the course and then you just kind of left and there's no proper backup support anywhere, no one kind of helps you and you end up back on a forum going, I'm having a problem with lifting. Can anyone help? And that shouldn't be where you go. You should be going back to your educator every time.

It shouldn't, it shouldn't even be a thing that you don't think about going back to your educator.

Even if you've taken a new brand on and you've done their conversion training, that you go back to the educator because they're the ones that understand that product, understand the methods and the techniques you should be using and understand what the possible problems and results are going to be if you don't do what they've told you to do.

I always use the analogy of a lasagna that, bear with me, is that you can have two designs. You have an M and S lasagna and you can have an Aldi lasagna. Ultimately it's a lasagna, but you don't. And you're going to microwave them.

That's how you're going to cook it.

Not my favorite.

I know, I know. But just as an example. And it wouldn't be mine either. But just because it's a lasagna doesn't mean you're going to cook it the same length of time.

And actually some lasagnas, you can't cook in a microwave, they have to be done in an oven. But, you know, like, you follow the manufacturer's instructions of that.

So, I mean, I don't want to dumb it down, but just to make it in a real simple form, you switch brands, use it, which is also an insurable thing. Use it to the manufacturers instructions. Because ultimately as well, I mean, you know, I'm affiliated to a brand like you come and you want my help.

If you don't haven't necessarily used it the way I'm, you know, in the way that we've recommended, it is hard for me to then help and support you when you've got a problem.

Yeah.

If you've got a problem and you've used it the way I've said to use it, then I, I can usually work it out.

Yeah. When you're.

When you've used multiple different things into the mix.

Yeah.

That's a lot to break down before we get to actually what could probably be the problem.

We like the manufacturing instructions thing so important. And because.

You don't get medicines and take it an opposite way of that. It's been said on the label. No, no, you don't take some conditioner but use it as shampoo like you follow it does.

You are, you are right in what you're saying. It does really seem to align in the nail sector of our industry. And I don't. If I, if we had. If I knew what the answer was there.

Yeah. I don't know.

You're in Barbados.

Maybe. Because it's just nails. It's. And maybe it is that mindset of like, well, it's just nails. It's like. It's not that, you know, can't kill anybody.

No.

Well, technically you could, but it'd take a while. But you could take a while. Yeah. It's about risk management, isn't it? Ultimately, manufacturers instructions are there to guide you and to.

And to instruct you and educate you in the use of that product, service, machinery, whatever it is that you're doing, it's there to help you make sure you do it correctly as to the way that they've tested it and researched it and all of that stuff.

And if you choose to ignore those instructions, which I will say you don't use, for example, like, you know, lamp police if you don't use the match lamp, and we're not going to go into that because it's just like, that is a can of worms that we have.

I will say, like, I want to sit when I cat here. Everyone's going to be, I hope you're all sat down if you want to do that. I'm, I'm fine with it.

Yeah, I am totally happy if you want to not use it the way I've recommended. You want to mix stuff up, you want to go off on your own tangent. I'm. You do that. That is your prerogative to do that. I can. Only your boots. Yeah.

I'll give you all the information you then need to do your due diligence. Your decision. You are knowledgeable enough to have got that information to make your decision. Not by going, hi, guys, what's the best.

I will move out of nails, for example. What's the best face cream example. And then you go with the general consensus of what everyone said because again, it's a face cream.

Your face cream is not going to be the same as my face cream.

No.

What I like or what scent I like or what feel I like or where I'm going to wear it, where I put it, like, all of those things are different.

So what you need to know is that the makeup of a face cream, like, what you're, what you want to achieve, what you want to be, your end goal, how you want to use it. Questions. I've said this so many times, ask questions. If someone asks for your help, ask them questions back.

Don't just go straight in with, I use this.

Yeah.

Or I don't know, or evidence.

Why? Well, yeah, because for me and my clients, it provides this feature and benefit and this outcome. And that's why I love it to me.

And I will, I mean, I'll go on. I do try really hard not to get on too many groups nowadays because I just bang my head on a wall and it's frustrating and it's time consuming.

But when you've got people that are just going, yeah, use this company, have a link. Use that company. Oh, yeah, love it. Have a link. It just does.

It doesn't benefit anybody because they are not telling them about your journey with that product.

And I will talk about, if I do start talking about products online in response to a thread, I will say, you know, like, for example, like now brands, we'll, we'll go in our brands because that's both, We've both been in that world. Or you Asked it in that world.

But I have used, over the years I have used artistic Jellish, I have experienced Lucente as a client, I haven't experienced it as tech. I've had, I've used opi, I have used, I don't even know, I've used Astonishing. I've used, I've used quite a few identity.

I've used quite a lot of brands and I would explain if I was going to comment on any of them, if someone was asking about say entity for example, I would say yeah, when I use that, I found these were the bonuses of using that brand, these were the downsides because there's got to be some kind of explanation behind why you're recommending or why you're saying don't use it. You can't just say you have to use it and here's a code and I'm going to earn five pounds as well.

What's happening in what you're saying there?

Those questions that are asked is because they're, they're hopping, they've jumped and they've jumped brand and they've used like the lasagna analogy.

They've used the same technique that they were taught in the very, very beginning and we've moved to somewhere else and it doesn't apply the same, you're not getting the same outcome but you're not applying it the right way. And then in the case of we're going to change again, there's a lot of wasted money, there's a lot of wasted product.

I fear on an environmental factor, I worry, I worry about how much product's being lobbed in the bin now and you know, there's so many other like facets of that situation. But also do you know, it's probably another thing that's on your list of us to talk about today is the brand ambassador malarkey of that as well.

Yeah, and I, I had a proper wobble in a few months ago, really questioned all my life choices of what job I'm doing, what do I even want to do this anymore? The whole thing.

I'd lost a whole lot and I'm, you know, and I'm a very well seasoned pro, been here a long time, very, very, very passionate about what I do, very passionate about the standards, very passionate about our future and really wanting to encourage like the younger generations to, to live the career, the amazing career that I've had, all of those things.

But one of the things that I've really struggled with is that I can no longer based on My reputation that I've built of 23 years Recommend A product or a brand anymore because the presumption is because I work there or I'm getting paid to do it. Yeah, that I am. This is again, if you lovely and youthful and we all sound like wrinkly fossils here, but I am a.

I am a traditional, old school, technically brand ambassador. I'm not biased. I love all brands. I. And I'm very open about that. There is room for everybody here.

What you might align with, with your choices, with what you want as a brand might not be what a brand provides and B, brand provides, but C does. And this is why you've got to do your due diligence. So I have multiple codes for brands, not just now brands, industry companies.

And I don't earn from them. I have those and they offer as well to pay and I don't want payment.

I want to recommend it as a gift to the person because I'm endorsing you because of my reputation. And I've asked this question quite a lot when in FA classes. You know, why? Why what? You know, what makes a good. Why?

Why would you become a brand ambassador? Because some of them actually aim for that as a career choice now. And I'm like, well, because they could get paid.

So do you think they like the product or are they doing it because they get paid? And I will say 95 of those students said, well, it's because they get paid. I was like, good, then.

So you're now buying it because you're helping someone else. Someone else earn a living.

Which is fine. Like we're all in here in business, we all got paid.

But today when I got a code, yes, I would have been remunerated for it, but my reputation was, if she uses it, it's got to be good. Yeah, she's recommending it and I. And that it doesn't exist anymore. So you've probably seen the word brand ambassador go.

Brand ambassadors used to be the educators. Really.

Yes, it was. Yes. Yeah.

And.

And all of us that were educating, you know, back maybe, because I think this has happened far more since COVID I think the brand ambassador thing was there before, but I think it's the last couple of years it has ramped up hugely.

That was good. Because actually what brands did is they recognized the deficit in income, that we were struggling in lockdown. What could we do to support our users?

So then they did create more brand ambassadors in lockdown, which then provided people who weren't working with a small amount of Pin money to play with. Like, beautiful. It is over.

We have got to kind of remember that it's done. But I do. Like, we used to, like, as an educator, when I used to work for. And I used to teach for Luellabel, we would. If we.

If we sell products on our training courses and stuff. Yeah, we'd get a commission for it. And it was quite an accepted practice.

It wasn't anything, you know, but we were out there promoting, teaching, working with the product.

You're doing what, you're on commission, aren't you? Technically, yeah. You get the way of your code.

Being part of the sales.

Paid for the work. Yeah. Of the sales. But now it's very unbiased now.

Yeah.

Someone commented the other day, I saw, and my heart sunk because she was like, I want a new gel brand again. It does seem to be very nails. It's not beauty.

Very nails. I don't see lashes. Lashes. A little bit, maybe. Yeah, yeah, A little bit ambassadors. But no brand.

But no brand ambassadors. Don't want to hear from you. And then I was like, oh, that's it, I'm out. Because I. I mean, actually, I.

I've actively stopped giving my codes out now, which actually isn't very good. Isn't very good for anyone that I work with. The.

Many of the groups don't allow you to share codes because it did become bombarded with people just sharing codes without the same ethos as me with the. If I get my code out there, then I'll get more money. No, I'm giving you my code because I think.

Surely, but surely there's an argument as well that, you know.

I know what you're going to say. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yes. I think so. Go for it now.

Okay, I know because what if you don't agree with me now? I. I just feel that I spend a lot of time. I've never really been a fit.

I mean, apart from when I was educating, I've never really been affiliated with a brand. If I've got a brand in myself, like when I had. When I had my salon, and I've still got.

I've still got some of my stock I'm rolling out, but I've still got some of my stock from Comfort Zone. And I love Comfort Zone. I love everything about them. I love their products, I love their ethos.

I love the fact they were one of the first B Corp organizations in our industry. I love their sustainable. I just. Everything. The aromas, everything. I was putting. I put my hydro memory cream on this morning.

And every time I do it, I still have that oh, moment. I love it.

Paid to say that right now.

No, I'm not. No, I'm not paid to say.

I wish I was because I spend my whole life and I still even do their weird square bracket, space comfort zones space, square brackets if I'm talking about them, because that's how they like it done.

And I still, even though I don't have it in my salon anymore and I don't sell it and I don't use it as a professional, I still abide by their brand ethos because I just so love it. But I will go out there and every.

Whenever anyone asks about skincare and I want to have, like a really nice sort of like, spa, like, kind of skincare in my salon, I will still go out there banging the Comfort zone drum because I'm so passionate about what they do and how they do it. If you don't know about Comfort Zone, they've got. They have got their own farm where they grow their own product materials.

I mean, it is just honesty and it's in the. In a beautiful part of Italy and it is stunning. But. But I can go and do that.

And we've had this conversation because obviously, big news on the podcast a couple weeks ago from when this is going to be going out is that I now have a sponsor. And it's something I really kind of wanted. Needed to do because the podcast needed to start being, you know, funded in some way.

But it kind of has put me in that odd position of like, I've got a code and I've never had a code, and I don't know what to do with the code now. I mean, obviously it's going to go on all the sponsor on all of the podcast stuff.

Yeah, but you wouldn't have gone and got.

But I'm not out there as their brand ambassador and I'm not. I'm. I'm on there. It's on my podcast. They're my sponsorship partner.

But I'm not going to go into every group going, oh, yeah, and I'm mates with Jenna.

Have my code where your reputation is out one. It outnumbers. Should I say the remuneration.

Yeah.

Getting paid for your recommendation. You're being rewarded for your hard work, but for being rewarded for proudly wearing that, like, Jenna's taglines there. Like, I say, I know you.

I know that if you've been sponsored by them, you were endorsing them because they're good, so they're trusted.

And I Believe, you know, we both got, we've got, we've got very similar values in our businesses. And yeah, we both want the same outcome for the people that are going to be at the other end of like, Jenna.

Yeah.

Using it and using it for their businesses to help grow their client journey and customers like, all their client success and all that kind of stuff.

There's no, there's no harm in you being remunerated for your code usage because like I say, but it's hard when you are out there recommending and you actually, who don't like a discount. I'm just saying, like, how many of you, like the Black Friday's just been out there? If I could tell you. Oh, do you know what?

You know, someone goes, oh, I've got Gusto, for example. There's many other food suppliers out there. Gusto. Oh, I've never tried that one. If you've got a discount for me to try it. Oh, yeah, I have.

So am I now Gusto Bias. No, just one that I'm using, like, you know, yeah, I'll help you.

Yeah.

Get a bit of a discount. Save yourself some pennies. You know, times are hard. So it's good that.

And I think as well, one of my, one of my friends, Nina Atfield, she's just. And I love her. I love her brand. And I've worked with Nina. I've known Nina for probably coming on 10 years. We worked together.

We were both educators at Louella Bell, shared a room, many a trade show. And, And I'm actually, I'm going to get her onto the podcast because she's gone through such a journey to get to where she is with her brand.

And she's developed Luster Lash and it's an amazing brand.

Oh, yes.

At the small business hub thing.

And she has developed this brand mainly from a point of view from people with alopecia or going through chemo where they have no lashes so that they can still have lashes. And it is. What she's created is amazing. But she's going down the brand ambassador route and I'm seeing her take on her ambassadors.

But I know, because I know Nina really well, I know that they will be mentored by her in a read. And I'm sure probably most of the people that use brand ambassadors, they must mentor them in some ways to make sure there's that. Sorry. Okay.

Maybe I'm just being hopeful. See, am I just too sorry for.

Those of you who are only listening? I mean, I'm not the brand that I'm affiliated to. Because I see what goes on in the background. But yeah, many of them aren't.

They just got the code usage, what they're doing. They're being given a code. There is a difference. There's also. There's an affiliate code and then there's a brand ambassador code.

They're two different things as well.

Sometimes they've got a large audience and you're just hoping that if they accidentally one day use your product that they're going to promote it and no one wants to buy anything full price. So the discount is the call to action to create the sale.

Yeah, that's it. See, whereas my affiliate code with Jenna, I don't believe that there's a discount to attract people.

They need to be attracted by the value and the benefits that Jenna bring them.

Oh, okay, that's good. And it's a good way of data, like not data capturing but like checking that.

Oh, this is where all of our, you know that you're an active promoter that are. We know that a lot of, you know, the new uptake comes from sue. And it's a good way.

Good to know your audiences, which is really important as a business as well. Understand your audience. So she does make.

I think the ambassador thing is just, it's just I was saying she was like before, like, let's, let's not make it all about nails because the podcast listeners are so much broader than. But ultimately so much of this does come back to nails because there is oversaturated.

Oversaturated because you can just have a gel bottle and do nails because it's just nails.

We are like. So I've been in it for what, 23 years now. I come from a time where there was what I've said to you before, heritage brands.

Brands have been around forever. Yeah. Which I know the brand that I'm affiliated to hate me when I say that. And, and I'm like, it's a positive. It's a heritage means you're trusted.

You've stood the test of times. You've seen economic crisis, you've seen a pandemic, for God's sake.

You know, you've, you've been here, ridden the wave, ridden the storm and still serving those people. And you're obviously doing something right.

Yeah.

You're not here for the quick fix, the sudden up rise and then. Because it's a hard ass ball then. Yeah, massively so. But. But now it's very easy to just all of a sudden bring out your own products.

Actually, I, I Get emails weekly from manufacturers in China. Not against China at all, by the way, all the time. Would I like to have my own products? Nope. No, I don't actually.

It's a hard. It's a hard old life. I did sub distribution. I have to say, in my defense, I didn't realize at the time I wasn't actually very well. And I had.

And it was the, during the, the final days of me becoming that seriously unwell that I had to go and see a doctor when I had vitamin D deficiency because I really wasn't focused, I couldn't do anything. And I taken on sub distribution at the point that I was on this like really downwards spiral of health.

And I did it for about eight months and then I literally had to just like throw away all the money that I'd spent on it because I couldn't actually function. But it was hard work. It's really hard work. And I was only a sub distributor, like, let alone being like a distributor and being a manufacturer. Wow.

Yeah. Because obviously then you have the support of your main distribution and the owner of that product.

But with, again, just like I say, I get emails weekly now.

Luckily, I'm very fueled with knowledge of how to bring products to market and the boxes that need to be ticked in the legislation that comes with that. But I won't be the only person because emails are just so easy to grab now. You can harvest them straight off of people's Instagram accounts.

You know, would you like to bring out. This is just an accidental business person. Like, would you like to bring out your product, put your own name on it? Okay, yeah, I'll do that.

And then I'll start selling it. Yeah, they make it seem that simple. And you don't. Not equipped with the knowledge of how to bring a product to market correctly.

That's not your fault at all.

Like, you know me and my rubbishy now calls to start with. It's not my fault.

No one's fault.

You don't know what you don't know. No.

And this should be. I always, when I listen to your podcast, I see, I'm like, I should create a course for that. I should create a course for that.

I mean, I don't know where I've got time to do half these things, but you know, these, those bits of like, legislation how, how to bring out your own products. So if anyone's listening right now, I'm giving you business ideas how to bring out your own actual. Bring out your product line.

And this is the legislation you need to follow, like how to start up your own business, how to be a solopreneur. You know, all of those things, they're not out there for anyone.

It's. And it's very, very difficult, isn't it? I think there's. There's just so much potential of what you can do. And it's an.

Actually, when you're saying about how your affiliated brand don't like being called heritage brand, it's just. And I was thinking. And you are.

Well, you are coming into this stage of your career much as I was when, like, God, whenever it was seven years ago, I won services to industry at Scratch Stars. Yeah. Still one of my best. One of my. My proudest achievements ever. And then I.

And I can remember Helena, Big emailing me and saying, oh, so, you know, it's well done afterwards all this, you know, like blowing smoke on my backside, like everyone does when you've done something like that. It's lovely. But she said, I'd like you to write a column for the magazine Scratch. And I'm like, oh, I'm in for that. I like. I like writing. Okay.

And then when I started all my articles, and when the first one came out, the tagline they given me was industry veteran Sue Davies.

I know I call you that and you hate me.

I know. And I literally, what was I. I was 50 because it was my 50th birthday year and I had an amazing year and I had this massive. I had.

I won Scratch Stars on one weekend, and then the following weekend it was my 50th birthday and it was. I signed a really amazing few weeks and I was on this height and I didn't feel like I was 50.

I'd just been to Ibiza for the first time, having never got there in my 20s when I should have been going in my 20s, and. And so I was like, I was out there to party my 50th birthday. I spent the whole night on the dance floor just like, giving it large and.

And then, like a few weeks later, got called a veteran and was like.

Excuse me, I can understand why you feel like that or felt like that.

I mean, I. I kind of accept it and I kind of sit amongst it now because when that, that night when I. When I read it and I was.

I was mortified and I was sitting at the dinner table and I was like, proudly showing, like, my husband and my son, oh, look, my articles in the magazine, but can you believe what they've called me? And. And I have spoken to Helena about It. And she's like, what else do I call you? And my son was pretty much the same.

Was like, but mum, you should be really honored to be called a veteran.

Yeah.

Because it means, you know, stuff and it means that you've, you've got the badges kind of thing.

You've earned them.

I think probably with me a lot.

Much like we cherish veterans that are still with us now of the war. Not. Yeah, you know, like they're to be cherished. Like they are so full of knowledge. And you, you know, I do appreciate why you see it like that.

I do get it. Because no one wants to be told that they're old. And I think probably, yeah, I think.

Because I think of the war veterans walking along with their walking stick one day.

Well, maybe you will be one day. So maybe you will.

At the moment, as long as it's.

Glittery and sparkly, it's fine. Like you're still giving it large on the scratch stars dance floor. What, you know, in, in 10 years time, 20 years time, I'm here for it.

Yeah.

But yeah, I do, I do appreciate it.

It is, yeah, I, I, like, I spent a very large proportion of the day Yesterday with a 22 year old beginner and I think I must have said to her, I don't want to be any form of condescending or that I'm this old person talking down to you like, but I tell you now, I mean, kudos to her. She. If she could have sat glued to me the whole day, she would have done. She just sat right next to me. She wanted to know everything she wanted.

She was what I call education inclined. She wanted to know absolutely everything. And that was quite rare.

But I think we should probably finish on the fact you mentioned in educationally inclined and how welcoming you are to the education inclined with your new community that you've got on Facebook.

Because as much as it's very nice having a chat with you, everybody that comes on the podcast has always got something that they're doing that other people can buy into or meet up or connect or do whatever. So. So what is it that they can connect with you with now? Surgery.

Yeah, I mean I've spent, I started it before COVID lockdowns and things. I, I took it upon myself to pick one person a week out of a Facebook forum that were around then.

I pick one person and some of those people I'm still in contact with now and with their question, I do it privately. Look, I'm here, I'm offering you the advice to assist you with this if you want my help.

Sometimes I was took up for it, sometimes I was turned down but my view on that was I was helping 52 pros a year job done and I had a lot of more time on my hands. I was pre children all of those things. But then I'm a victim of my own success somewhat.

I then become the resource to come to and my and now there's too many channels so now there's Facebook, Instagram, there's messenger, WhatsApps, all of those things.

And I am bombarded not so much now since now surgery is about but I was bombarded and and overwhelmed with the questions and it's lovely, it's lovely to know that I'm the go to person to get you out of a spot or answer your question whether that be big, small, whatever, business related, product related, salon related, the dreaded allergy related, all of those things.

And so I'm prolific in the the not as much they used to be but the other Facebook groups and stuff but it just wasn't manageable and it really started to affect my mental health and I think that will resonate with everybody because it, it wasn't the positive place to be. It was a scary place to be. Scary place of misinformation with the brand biasness, the just the poor education standards, all of those things.

And I was like if you need a job doing you just got to do it yourself, haven't you? How am I going to streamline this? So I'd already with my another move that I'd got on my hands.

I'd sold any of the products that I didn't need to keep maneuvering with me each time I uplift up moved.

I suggested to the group of professionals that are in this group what do you think guys if I switch this group to a group, a Facebook group but I make it, I can't keep giving out this advice. This is my, this is becoming my job. This is becoming my full time job and I'm just giving it away for free. And this has value.

This has really strong value and I'm not giving it to the people how I want to deliver it and supporting them how I feel they should be supported. So what if I build my own community that I can control that. And everyone was like don't know why you didn't do it ages ago.

Yeah.

So I was like okay then. So I built now surgery. So it's literally built on the foundation of non brand bias.

Yes, I am affiliated to brand A brand But I will help you no matter where you're from if you have a question. My knowledge of brands is really good. So if I can't help you, I will know someone who can and I can point you in the right direction.

I write blogs, I write articles, I write all sorts of bits of information here, there and everywhere. It spreads so far and wide that actually it'd be better if it was in one place.

So in this group I also put all the information that I have in one place. I drip feed it into the group.

I do a weekly live in there because it's easier for me to just do my weekly live in there and chat to the audience that are in there that wants there, that are educationally inclined. The ones that want to learn, they want to know versus me trying to ram it down some people's throats and then they don't want to know about it.

They don't want to know about it, that's fine. But if you do, I'm here.

And then we do group coaching because much like we've discussed at the start, we're on our own that we need that team, we need each other, we need to uplift each other. We, we have skills that each other doesn't have and we want to rub shoulders and be infectious and all of those things.

So now we do the monthly group coaching in there. I set them some tasks as well because actually sometimes we need to be accountable when we're on our own, including myself.

So it's now made me accountable by having those groups, by having those professionals there and any tip, bit of information actually that I get, any bit of knowledge, any bit of anything, I just drop it straight in just one place I can do it.

And it's just, it channels the energy, doesn't it? I think. Yeah.

You know when you're trying to talk to and you're, you know, like I keep saying to you is that there's a particular group that I've been suckered back into.

Yeah, I've seen that.

And I don't know why I'm doing it because I'd stopped. But I think it's because you have that natural, if you educate, you're doing.

It all the best part, the best.

And you can see all of those people, people giving those non helpful comments of like here's my code, here's my code, here's my code or other.

Yeah, don't worry about the match lamp police or whatever they're saying and actually you need a balanced view and I think that people like you and I attempt. We're not always successful or we are not always listened to. I don't think it's not.

We are successful in delivering the message, but we're not always listened to. And I think that we just need to give that balance wherever we can.

Because, yeah, we have been affiliated with brands and we have our favorite things that we use and our favorite tools or, you know, favorite colors, whatever. Whatever bits of it that we use that we can talk about from a place of success.

But we just have to be consistently out there all the time doing that everywhere. And if you have enough of a reputation that you can sit in one place and people come to you, It's. It is energy.

I'm giving so much better quality. I'm actually giving the people what I need. I'm not now beating myself up because I've missed the message or.

And I will say people might think this is funny, but it's silenced a lot of people. I'm sad. I'm sad that they feel like they don't want to pay for the. They obviously were happy to take it, but now they have to pay for it.

They don't want to. But you know what? I can actually hear for the first time. And it's been a long time that I.

I think I've probably got tinnitus, actually, but I can actually.

I can help you with that.

Thank you. It just made it. I'm not being bombarded anymore, and now I can focus on giving really. It's quality over quantity. Tea for me every single time is.

And I'm. I'm in now surgery as I don't even. Well, I'm sort of there just sort of like bumping along with everybody, really.

And you were forced in there. You were forced in there.

I was. I'm. I'm not gonna lie. She like put my arm behind my back and made me go in when I just happened to be in there.

I just didn't get thrown out when she threw everybody else out. But I really. I love it in there. And so. And there's. You've got a couple of us, haven't you, in there that do. That are more.

Yeah. Specialism. So if they've designed. Is in there. Because she is a different section of the. Of the industry. She knows our industry really well.

I worked with her a previous brand decades ago, and that's how we met. She's become like a work wife, but she. She just lives in my brain. If I say to her, she built my nail surgery website, Liz A bit too flash.

She just knows this industry and, and I can just say this is what I'm creating. And she gets excited about it as well. I think my, my passion is infectious for her as well. She doesn't really like it.

She always says, like, I don't know anyone that's as passionate about anything in life but you. But she's in there because she can help people with how they present their brands. You know, we are the face of our brands.

So there are a few people in there that have been guested into the group because you provide so much value and I know you're factually correct, so.

I know the thing is, I do, I do worry that I'm going to lose some of that factually correct stuff because now I'm not really, especially with nails because I'm not current now. I haven't, I haven't provided nail services for over a year.

You're not there giving that, isn't it? I mean it's called nail surgery because that's what you're there for, the nail dresser. And it's called surgery because it was like a GP surgery.

You drop in. All I seem to do is, is fix problems. I diagnose which I know what you're supposed to do. But we die.

I challenge, I challenge and I give thought provoking questions so that you are empowered with the knowledge to make your own decisions. I'm not to fix you. I will give you the medicines to.

Then you can come up to your own, like, own conclusions and it's just somewhere that can, you know, I'm your, I'm your assurance policy, you're working on your own, you've got no one to go to. Where you going to go?

You're going to come here, you know where you know you're going to get the quick factual information and if I can't get it, oh my God, I'll find it. Because if I don't know it, I'm annoyed. Like, yeah, I want to know the answer.

I was going to say that's it because you need to learn that too. If you don't know, I don't know it.

I, I want to know, I want to know it and I, but I don't just want to know it loosely, I want to know it properly in depth.

So for example, someone asked about the differences of high grade oil, which is a marketing term used in the industry and I was like, well this is what I think I know, but leave it with me. And then I've ended up delving into a whole manufacturing process of oil. And I've learned a lot, you know, in that process.

So it is.

And even from like, you know, the stuff like where I'm, I'm a qualified aromatherapist, I'm allowed to blend and create my own aromatherapy blends because I'm a proper aromatherapist.

But you know, I know from my training is that, you know, the, I'm always careful who I buy my aromatherapy oils from or my essential oils from because, because if you don't buy them from someone that uses them and creates them specifically for that purpose, you can end up in like consumer essential oil levels which are really not that great. And they don't, they're not as powerful, they're not as, they're not as beneficial.

They're just, they aren't going to do the job that pure aromatherapy oils will do because they've just been, they might be slightly diluted down.

And I think thing is like that's why, you know, going through professional over consumer stuff and understanding that difference and it is not, you know, a high grade almond oil that we can buy to use in our services is going to be very, very different from what you would buy off the shelves of a high street chemist. Yeah, they aren't, they aren't looking.

There are some oils out there after now I've ended up delving right into it. There are some oils out there that are just labeled high grade and, and they're not.

If you go into any consumer brand then they're going to say because they're trying to tell the, you know, and maybe you know, in comparison to something that's really low grade, it is a higher grade but it is the high grade that we'd use as a professional.

Yeah. So yeah, so yeah, it's amazing. I say it's an amazing place to be because I'm learning at the same time and, and it's so much more positive.

I feel like I've got what I call, I call them like my little army. I know I've now got a little group, I'm not that little actually anymore but a group of professionals that are out there, we're all singing.

We go back to that kind of standards thing where we're all singing from the same hymn sheet. We all have the same knowledge, we all have their own stand. So. And I'm really proud of that.

And like I say it's just made my life a lot more enjoyable and more and I can be really passionate. I can just Give everyone everything.

Yeah.

I'm not just giving them a little half asked voice. Note that whilst I'm in the middle of a supermarket juggling my toddler because if I don't answer you now I'm not going to get back to you.

Yeah, yeah.

And it has sorted us somewhat of the weight from the chaff and and that's been great but I have, I will say I have seen a couple of people go off and ask questions now and been given and they've been previously someone that's been under my wing and now they've been misinformed again it is a bit heart wrenching but I've been able to switch off from it because yeah.

They'Re grown ups.

Yeah. Yes.

And you're not responsible. They're making a choice. They could, they could come and be part of your factual community and be.

Educational saying that there isn't. I would make clear. I'm not saying it's not factory in all the other communities at all whatsoever but we just have a very strong structure.

If you do request to join there is some terms and conditions and some.

Real strong and it matches, it matches your value. It matches your values.

And those values, yes they may well be out in many of the groups at different points of the day, week, month, year but sometimes they're not there and that's like people get misinformed.

Yeah. I mean if it ever grows known.

As like a truth sayer.

Yeah.

I'm known for being very honest but I think I, I have concerns actually I've said this to you before, I've got concerns of that if you know you could go on a real monetary. Oh wow. If I had like hundreds of thousands of people in there call winning I'd be on my yacht in Barbados.

But actually then I'm not giving the people what. What they. That I want like how I want to deliver things.

So I have already started to think and I'm only a month in, I'm gonna have to set a limit because then eventually it's going to dilute and it's not going to be what it's there for. So it will be then a one in, one out.

Yeah.

So and that's took probably a couple of weeks for me. I've spoken to you about it.

I've kind of voiced it again important to talking to people, communicating about it, having someone to go to having my veteran that actually I'm okay with that now I've got to stop wanting to fix everyone.

Yeah.

No I can't because Most of, most.

Of the people that are in the forums where you have been helping, most of them aren't fixable, you know, as we. And there was a post recently and, and I don't know if I should say this out loud really. Whatever, I'm a veteran, I should be able to take it.

She says no, you can use the.

Old thing while she's seen. Oh, you know, she just.

Yeah, no, that's it. Maybe I just pretend I've got dementia and that's why I'm saying it.

But, but there's a phrase that I use and I know it's been used by other people in the last few weeks about the fact that some of our industry are the equivalent of like flat earthers. And I think that you are never going to convince everybody. During COVID there was anti vaxxers and there's.

Before COVID there was anti vaxxers but there's always going to be people that don't believe and it may be, you know, like we don't believe what they believe. So we're to them we're not believers and so to them we're probably flat earthers. Yeah.

I'm a strong, I'm a strong science person. So everything I deliver is if I can back it up with documents and, and experience. I've made mistakes. I will openly tell you bad things I've done.

I actually even did something yesterday that if I'll share it in. Do you know what, if you want to know, you have to join our surgery.

I did something yesterday that I know I'd be shot down by the NOW police for yesterday.

I know but it was a calculated decision in that I had to go through all the information, the knowledge I had to come to the conclusion as to what I was going to do to assist that person in front of me.

She was, she got the full spiel of why I shouldn't do what I was doing but this is the reason why I'm doing it and, and I won't be doing it anytime soon again. I won't see her. But you know, this is the reason and this is how you're going to have to do with it.

And this is if this is a two way thing, I'm doing this, but you've got to do this. And so yeah is it's calculated risks and that with science knowledge, experience and.

The mitigation that you know what you're doing. Yeah.

And I, but yeah, if I'd have, if I went public with that, oh my God, I'd be. I'd be shocked.

But I think we've all got, we've all got elements of things that we've done that have been a workaround of a situation that it's not ideal but with the resources and the information and the situation you have in front of you, you do the workaround. Yeah. Because you're a professional and you want and you understand the risks, therefore you can mitigate them if you don't.

And I think the problem we have now is that many people don't understand the risks, therefore they cannot mitigate against them. And that's where the problem is because they don't understand how to, how to alleviate that risk as much as they possibly can and do.

Because at the end of the day, that's all if you, if you end up with a claim, all your insurers want to do is understand that you have done every. You've taken every. Can't say the word, every reasonable precaution to reduce the risk and that's what they're looking for.

Knowledge is power. I mean obviously with the.

Another recent project which you know, has been going on, it's been going on for about a year now even that, you know, I have completely with the full knowledge, understanding terminology. Every single bit of science in my brain has gone onto paper to fight a trademark application which I successfully. I mean, do you know what?

Actually, even today, I think it might even be officially registered today. I'm waiting for the email, you know, and it's been ongoing but I'd have not been able to do that on my own as well. No, no IP lawyer.

If I didn't have the knowledge that I have.

Yeah.

To.

And it only comes with time and experience, doesn't it? At the end of the day.

Yeah.

But I am someone who is willing to always share that I will help anybody and it's got to be willing, you've got to be education inclined, you've got to be willing to want to listen, take it in, be interested, be engaged, take responsibility for your education, take responsibility for your knowledge and you do great things.

Yeah.

And I think as well, one of the things that I know we've touched on previously is the fact that and like we've both been in industry a similar amount of time, but our journeys of. We've.

We probably overlap more times than we ever realized but we actually didn't really get to meet each other and have a conversation until lockdown. And since then, as I was saying in the intro, since then we've become like quite firm like buddies and we spins.

We spend a lot of time talking to each other and one of those things is like, you know, you're.

The journey you've been on has led you down a pathway of like not understanding product creation, development and understanding how all of that stuff works. Mine's lent me has led me down a road of I don't even know what competitions and awards and judging and trade associations and being a salon owner.

And like when we have, we have. If you did all of our little Venn diagrams, we're going to have loads of areas where we create cross over.

But our experiences of doing the same job for virtually the same amount of time have given us such different experiences. And your. And they're very unique experiences, which is why I am a veteran and why you are coming to be on the road to veterinarism.

Veteran, veterinary.

No, we're not. No, we're not going to the veterinary. But I don't know what you call it, but it's. I suppose it's, it's just, you know, it's. It's our usp, isn't it?

Yeah, it's like, you know, all of the information that's in your head is very different to all the information that's in my head.

Yeah.

But when you put people like us together and I think that was the joy of the like with, with SCJ. Was it with the magazine, was you had 30 of us, was actually 31.

31 of us that were industry professionals who had all gone through probably 20 to 30 years of experience but all came out of it with different specialisms.

But also the interesting about that is the group of us, was it 800 something odd years we had between.

Yeah, 800, 850 years worth of experience.

We all had the very shared ethos of like there was no gray area there. We all had the very shared same vision.

Yeah.

And that's not. That's a minimal amount of people in the industry. Sadly. We're a real priority.

Yeah, I suppose. And you know what? I think it'd be really nice to, to finish.

We do need to finish because otherwise people would be going like, my God, are they ever going to shut up.

They'll be like me listening to it in parts.

Yeah, I know. But this is it and this is the thing I've come to now is I've. I have.

I used to try and do this podcast and try and keep it under 45 minutes to an hour and. And I've just given up now because the conversations just roll and People just place polls and come back to it. Yeah, so.

So I'm going to finish on two things. Firstly, I'm just trying to work out which one to use your famously known quote of, successful people are not sitting around drinking tea.

No, we sit and drink coffee. No, we are. But yeah, I think that that will quote that. That was I. Something I said to my web developer and it now is on my website.

Yeah, that was the most genius thing you've ever said. I'm like, oh, okay. I didn't even realize it was a thing, but it's become a thing now.

Yeah, but. But it's true though, isn't it? And I think that what I want to kind of lead into and finish on is something that you were saying to me about my.

The second episode of this season about Wendy Garkaz's episode where she talked about the wisdom bridge. And you were saying to me, you. You'd message me excitedly saying, I'm listening to Wendy's episode. I love this, I love that. Whatever.

And I was like, have you got to the wisdom bridge yet? You're like, no. And then afterwards, after you'd finished it, you messaged me and were like, oh, my God, like, yeah, the wisdom bridge.

And you and I, it's so akin to leave the ladder down.

We.

And I. And I've said to you, I've got to speak to Wendy to see if it's something we can borrow from her or if we need to work with her or whatever.

But I just think everything.

I hope everything that we've spoken about today from everybody shows that although successful people are sitting around drinking tea today, it sometimes, sometimes, like those moments where you do sort of sit around and share your experiences with tea or coffee, whatever in your hand, do give value as well. Because I do. I just. That was the whole wisdom bridge.

Yeah. I think that that quote originally I wrote ultimately comes from just sitting there hoping for, waiting for it to happen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I work for it.

Like, yeah, you've got to work.

I've always got that. Put that tea in that coffee in a spot in a travel cup and take it with you. Like you, you. You've got. If you.

You gotta make it happen, you can't just sit there and hope and dream. Dreams are important, but you've got to just take that tiny step towards that. You. If.

So if you need a job doing, much like now surgery, if you need a job doing, you just got to do it yourself. Yeah. And you just got to get on and do it And I know I say that to you a lot, like, just, just, just do it, Sue.

Yeah, I know. I am doing it. I'm doing it. But I think, though, that, you know, we can't now.

We can kind of sit and have a cup of tea and have a chat because we've kind of been there, done it, bought the T shirt. We have been successful. We are successful in what we do.

And because we applied ourselves at different points and I think without that application and that lack of. In feeling of entitlement that you've had to.

We had to go out and earn it and work it and do it to win our awards and, you know, to be able to wear the T shirt. Now we can kind of sit back and have a cup. And maybe that's what I was trying to say more is, yeah, you can. You can be successful and have a.

Have a cup of tea, but you've got to have done the work to take the time out to have the cup of tea.

Yep.

And that's hopefully where we are at now. I don't know. So. And I don't know where all that's going, but I. That whole wisdom bridge thing, and you need to go back.

If you haven't listened to Wendy's episode, it's. I can't think what it is. I think it's about an hour in something like that.

And I will say, if you're someone that's under the age of 55, because I think that's the title of the.

Still listen.

Yeah, you still totally got to listen to it because.

And I might. I might have to go back and retitle it, actually. So good main podcast thing. It is, it is, you know, Wendy's whole thing.

And I think the reason I put for business women over 55 is because that's what she specializes in.

But like she says in the episode, is it, you know, whether you're 20, 30, 40, 50, whatever you are, at some point you are going to be a businesswoman 5. And you need to prepare for that.

Yeah.

And it goes back to what we've.

Been saying about, you know, wanting to bring the younger generation through, leaving the lads down, bringing everyone up, bringing everyone through. Yeah, you, you know, you. What we. That is. That's the goal. Right. I.

I will be sat on the other side of this podcast in the veteran seat, probably holding my own podcast perhaps, you know, you know, like that. So, yeah, like, that's the whole point. Like, I. I want to learn from the. The forefathers before me.

Yeah.

To get with it. It might not be the path I take. It may not be that the end goal might not be the same.

But they have such a wealth of knowledge, those veterans, you know, that, you know, you wanna, you want, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna know your brain. I wanna hear your knowledge. And then I will make a decision as to what I'm gonna do with that.

Yeah, you've got to be open and listen, not write them off.

I was thinking about getting ready for this podcast today and we have really got in this is that that whole hindsight is a beautiful thing or that whole if only if I knew now, if I what I know now, I knew then or whatever.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You really need to take note of that because so actually maybe we do need to start listening to those people in front of us and stop because.

I've used that phrase about a situation this week many times about if I'd have known then what I know now, I never would have done certain things. And, and I would have been far more picky is the word. And a lot of situation.

If I'd have known then what I know now, a lot of other situations wouldn't have occurred. A lot of different things wouldn't have happened. But you don't know what you don't know.

Yeah.

And, and I, and I really do feel like we. One of the things we were discussing yesterday, so we're carrying on again now.

One of the things we were discussing yesterday was this thing about handing, like handing down to the generations and how we need to kind of be handing down to like Gen Z. But it's really hard because, you know, for somebody my age, I am an old dinosaur in comparison to them.

They will see me as like grandma figure, even though I'm not a grandma. They will see me in that, in that context because I'm old to them.

And, and what we were saying yesterday wasn't it, is that actually we need to recognize that we maybe aren't in a position to speak to those people at this point. And even you being, you know, the next generation down to me, possibly aren't the people the person to speak to Gen Z?

Right.

But what, who we can speak to, who can start disseminating that information is, is the generation below us. So like, you know, we have conversations and then you'll say it to the people that are down below you and it does. And it's like this ripple effect.

And for those of us that are over 55, we can have conversations with those around us that can continue to spread that word. And in actual fact, that's how the wisdom bridge works. But it needs to be a two way street.

And I think that the leaving the ladder down and trying to not do it in that condescending way of going, oh, we have all this knowledge that you need to have. They equally have come back to us. Like how to use tick tock. I hate tick tock. I don't want to use tick tock.

I don't like.

But it's an example of that thing of like, my generation struggles with that. I only know one person from my generation that uses tick tock prolifically and that's Kirsten Stewart. And she's bloody good at it.

She's really good at it.

Very, very good at it. And I love it. And I just. Maybe I just need to. But this is it. But maybe it's that whole.

It's much more peer to peer and then it starts going down because, like. Because Kirsten could give me an amazing lesson on how to use tick tock. And she's. I don't think she's as old as me.

She's a little bit younger than me.

But also that might not be where your audience lies anyway.

No, I don't think that's where my.

Powering in your energy into that. When actually it probably is.

Yeah, I know this is it. My audience isn't there, which is why I sit on Facebook and LinkedIn, because my audience is.

Yeah. So, yeah, but yeah, doing it together, being on the journey together. Not. It's not that condescending dictatorship that, you know, there is the.

The forefathers have laid before us. We're. I'm in an industry that.

But we're still learning.

Yeah. Yeah, we're always learning.

Yeah, much. My husband's disgust. I'm still learning. Yeah. He's never done a training course in his life. No, it's a lot.

He's done a couple in all the years I've known him. I've known him like 40, a long time. 40, 42 years. And he's only ever done two training courses that I'm aware of.

Where's his CPD?

He wouldn't know what it was if he hit him in the face. He's not learning anything from me. Yeah, it's just. It's just a weird one though, isn't it? And I do. I just think we just need to.

I think just share the knowledge and the wisdom bridge goes up and down the generations, across the generations and we just need to share what's in our heads.

Yeah.

This Christmas.

Yeah.

We should probably finish on a Christmas song.

I'm thinking if you. You can go for it.

I just. I've got a little pretend reindeer here. Sorry, people on the. On the podcast.

I've got Lemmy, My Boston Terry is sitting on my lap and he's got big ears. And I was just flapping him around in a kind of reindeer kind of way. He was not very impressed by the idea.

Right. Well, it's been a pleasure anyway.

It has been lovely.

But, yeah, we best look, because if people are listening to this, it's going to go out on the 23rd of December, so everyone's going to be mentally busy. Last couple of days in the salon. If you are.

If you are by any chance listening to this on your way to work, make sure you eat, make sure you have gaps. Yeah.

But be merry and love those clients, love those tips, love those presents that you know are going to be under your tree, that are going to be candles and mugs and it's like being a teacher.

They're not, you know, not. Not. Don't want to do that whole new year, new you. But you just got. How many years have you probably said the same thing?

Yeah.

As much as I've said about.

Yeah. You know, you really.

And I think actually that serves to be the lesson of not taking for granted that the next year is always going to be the best year, because it may not be. And I think next year needs to be a year of doing and getting things done.

And whether that's education, whether it's business stuff that you need to move forward, whether it's like you need to go and learn new practical skills, whatever it is, just move forward.

Yeah.

One percent.

One percent?

One percent every day try. Merry Christmas to everybody. And if you're not listening to this at Christmas, have a nice day.

Happy New Year.

Happy New Year. Happy Easter. Happy birthday. Yeah. I should say happy Mother's Day, I hope.

Well, you know, it's a. It's a podcast that's going to keep on giving, but let's hope that it is.

Yeah.

For no reason.

So that was a really lovely conversation with Teresa, and it was very akin to kind of how we. We sit and have our conversations when we're just having voice notes or we are actually having a conversation on the phone or on a video call.

And I hope that you got some stuff out of it. I mean it is literally just sitting on like we wanted it to be something where you're literally just like a fly on the wall.

Just listening into our conversation around some of the things that we talk about, some of the things that we know bug people in the industry. Because if we know if it bugs us, it's going to bug other people. That's that. So that's really where there'll be one more in this year.

If you are watching, if you are watching or listening to this before Christmas, I hope Christmas is the most amazing opportunity for you to relax and spend time with your family and friends. It's what it's about and I will see you for the next episode with I'm not quite sure who that's going to be yet.

I haven't worked out what playlist way it's going to work out. So have a fantastic holiday season and I will see you next time. Bye for now. Is your salon delivering the exceptional client.

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If you've enjoyed the podcast, please do subscribe, leave a review and don't forget, share with your fellow industry professionals and other business owners that you think may enjoy the show. Links and further information can be found on the Show Notes or on my website, www.su-davies.com.

all links and further information can be found in the Show Notes and there's also now the option to support the podcast through Buy Me a Coffee. The links for that you can find in the Show Notes. Thanks for listening. See you next time.