Shownotes
Hey Heart Buddies. This episode is so important. I welcome Julia Hotz, whose book, "The Connection Cure," is revolutionizing the way we approach healthcare. This episode takes a deep dive into how social prescribing—a practice that includes non-medical treatments such as art, movement, nature, and community involvement—can significantly enhance heart health and overall well-being. Julia shares compelling data and heartwarming stories about individuals who've transformed their lives through these holistic measures. Hear how simple, yet powerful, prescriptions for happiness and connection can make all the difference in your journey towards thriving post-heart surgery. You won't want to miss this enlightening conversation that bridges the gap between modern medicine and soulful living.
About Julia and how to get your own copy of The Connection Cure: THE CONNECTION CURE Book — Julia Hotz
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Transcripts
We're not saying that. Throw out all the pills, throw out all the
Speaker:surgeries, throw out all the therapies. We need all of that, too. This
Speaker:is about putting another option onto the healthcare menu.
Speaker:And I think it's this type of thing that the more we normalize it,
Speaker:the more we talk about health as something that is the product of our
Speaker:connections, the more we can accept that,
Speaker:yeah, social prescriptions make a lot of sense.
Speaker:Welcome to Open Heart Surgery with Boots, where we explore
Speaker:the journey of heart health through the eyes of those who live it every
Speaker:day. I'm your host, Boots Knighton, and in season
Speaker:five, we're focusing on what it truly means to
Speaker:thrive. We'll dive into cutting edge medical advances,
Speaker:share powerful stories from both sides of the stethoscope,
Speaker:and learn how to be better advocates for our own health.
Speaker:From candid conversations with cardiac patients to
Speaker:insights from dedicated healthcare professionals, each
Speaker:episode brings you closer to understanding the complex world
Speaker:of heart health. Whether you're navigating your own cardiac
Speaker:journey or supporting someone who is, you're in the right
Speaker:place. So let's get to today's story.
Speaker:I thank you for being here, for
Speaker:supporting this podcast, for showing up in the
Speaker:world and shining your bright light. It is not
Speaker:easy being a heart patient, and if you are new to me
Speaker:and this podcast, I welcome you with open heart and
Speaker:open arms. I started this podcast
Speaker:for all heart patients worldwide and as of this
Speaker:recording, I have now been downloaded in 65
Speaker:countries, which is just really astonishing to
Speaker:me and so thank you. I love you,
Speaker:I see you, I hear you. I am here for you.
Speaker:Please send an email
Speaker:bootsheheartchamberpodcast.com that was the
Speaker:original name of this podcast and I want to hear from you. If
Speaker:you're just now finding this podcast and tell me what you need to hear
Speaker:more of what you need support with and then find us on
Speaker:Patreon at Open Heart Surgery with Boots.
Speaker:And that is a great way to support the show and
Speaker:get involved with the community that I'm slowly getting going
Speaker:as I still continue to navigate my own heart.
Speaker:Hello, welcome to Open Heart Surgery with Boots.
Speaker:Oh, man, I tell you, I. I have been so
Speaker:fired up about 2025 for a while because
Speaker:I knew who I had on the roster. I
Speaker:have taken so much care this year to bring
Speaker:you a curated list of guests
Speaker:who are thriving after open heart
Speaker:surgery or who are contributing to the world of open heart
Speaker:surgery or who are helping us think
Speaker:outside the box of the medical field.
Speaker:I have said in past episodes that we need,
Speaker:we need more than like a cardiologist and a general
Speaker:practitioner on our team. We need a nutritionist. We
Speaker:need an ob gyn if you're a female.
Speaker:We need a pelvic floor specialist. I'm bringing the whole
Speaker:month of February, I'm bringing, bringing you pelvic
Speaker:floor health because our pelvic floor is so
Speaker:impacted by heart surgery. But today
Speaker:I'm going to be doing this. Throughout the year, I'm going to be highlighting various
Speaker:authors who have written books about health
Speaker:care in various ways. And today is the first
Speaker:author I'm bringing to you for 2025.
Speaker:Julia Hotz, welcome. Has written
Speaker:the most impactful book I have read in a
Speaker:while and I'm going to show it to you because I
Speaker:am hoping to start putting some more videos up of whole podcast.
Speaker:So this is called the Connection Cure. I love
Speaker:the title of the book. I love the COVID And
Speaker:this book, the, the subheading is a
Speaker:better way of thinking about medicine and healing. And
Speaker:that's, that's what really touched me because the whole
Speaker:impetus of this podcast has been there's gotta be
Speaker:more than just my surgeon telling me to go live my
Speaker:best life to clear my sternotomy. It's healed.
Speaker:Now just go out into the world and go on about your life. I found
Speaker:that then I just was kind of like lost in the
Speaker:shuffle. And I've had to figure out how to thrive. Not just
Speaker:survive, but thrive post open heart surgery. Lo and
Speaker:behold, this past summer, this book comes
Speaker:across my feed and thank goodness it did. And I've been
Speaker:implementing it into my life and I just went straight to the
Speaker:source and like cold emailed Julia and was like,
Speaker:will you please come on my podcast? And then maybe we could be friends.
Speaker:So here we are today. So, Julia, thank
Speaker:you. And Julia, I just want you to brag on
Speaker:yourself who you are. You are just contributing so much of
Speaker:your writing to the world. So I had like a writing crush on you. Tell
Speaker:us about who you are and set the scene before we dive into your really
Speaker:important book. Well, back at you,
Speaker:boots. And if I can just brag about you for a second, as I'm
Speaker:sure all your listeners know, you know, this book that I've written and everything
Speaker:I stand for is all about the power of connecting with
Speaker:others. It's about the power of connecting with our outdoor
Speaker:environments, our artistic lives, our inner self.
Speaker:And every listener of this podcast must know that you embody that
Speaker:message so well. So the honor is really mine.
Speaker:The way that you've Touched so many people with your story,
Speaker:and I think we are sort of kindred soul sisters in a way. I
Speaker:think we're both really interested in what
Speaker:is it that we're all here for. Right. And in those tough moments,
Speaker:whether it's heart surgery or any sort of medical
Speaker:challenge, what can that teach us about ourselves in the
Speaker:world and what really matters? So it is such an
Speaker:honor to be here and to talk about my book, the Connection Cure, which,
Speaker:thank you for reading and being a super fan of it means
Speaker:so much to me. Thank you. And, you know, I'm inspiring
Speaker:author myself, and I know what it takes to birth a book and get it
Speaker:into the world. And you had to
Speaker:really travel the entire world, it
Speaker:seems. And I. I'm really
Speaker:amazed at what you. The qualitative and
Speaker:quantitative data you gathered. I mean, you put so much heart and
Speaker:soul into this book, and I'm sold on it. And it' it really is an
Speaker:amazing read. And, you know, it's the prescriptive power of
Speaker:movement, nature, art, service and belonging. And
Speaker:I feel like we've lost that along the way. And I just
Speaker:reflect back to my experience in the hospital,
Speaker:and, you know, they would come in, they would barely touch me. They
Speaker:would scan my wrist, the wristband, and then just prescribe
Speaker:pills. And it was not. The diet wasn't very well thought out, the
Speaker:nutrition. And then, you know, it just seemed so
Speaker:fragmented, diluted, you
Speaker:know, just lacking soul.
Speaker:And our experience as heart patients, you know,
Speaker:it is our heart is our soul. That's where our soul is.
Speaker:And. And to have such an impactful surgery and
Speaker:then not to be prescribed any of this, and then just to be
Speaker:in this, like, silo, it doesn't set us up for
Speaker:wholehearted living. You know, pardon the pun, but it's true.
Speaker:And so, you know, your book is helping me re,
Speaker:like, rekindle my wholehearted living. Oh,
Speaker:wow. Well, so much to unpack there. Thank you for
Speaker:that. I think you always had it in you, but I think
Speaker:you must know better than anyone and your listeners know better than
Speaker:anyone that, yeah, the process of
Speaker:medicine today really makes us question a lot
Speaker:about how did medicine come to be this way, you know, because it struck
Speaker:me, as you were speaking 2500 years ago, the
Speaker:earliest philosophers and scientists and
Speaker:thinkers, no matter where they were in the world, whether it was
Speaker:ancient Greece or Nepal or the Middle east, they sort of
Speaker:converged on this idea that medicine
Speaker:has an art and a science to. To it. Right. It's not as
Speaker:simple as I treat the diagnosis you as a person are
Speaker:more than the sum of your parts. The way
Speaker:that you feel, the emotions you have,
Speaker:the aspirations you have, the experiences you have, that is all
Speaker:part of medicine, too. You know, it's even in our Hippocratic
Speaker:oath that people entering the US Medical profession take
Speaker:that our jobs are not just to treat with the
Speaker:surgeon's knife, but the surgeon's heart as well.
Speaker:So it's really only within recent
Speaker:years that medicine has become this, as you say,
Speaker:fragmented and cold. And listen, I have a lot
Speaker:of empathy for people working in the profession. I'm sure you do, too.
Speaker:It's not easy to be a cardiologist or work in
Speaker:any kind of health care today. The pressures on them are tremendous, and
Speaker:it is still a tremendous sacrifice to even enter medicine in the
Speaker:first place. But the problem is that the system
Speaker:right now doesn't set up those people for
Speaker:success. It sets us up to be treated. A term
Speaker:that kept coming up in the book is almost like a factory, right?
Speaker:Where medicine becomes this sort of factory approach. We're
Speaker:repairing machines rather than healing people.
Speaker:And you know the other word I'm thinking of? Sterilized.
Speaker:Yeah, sterilized. What was the word I was searching for
Speaker:earlier? But, yeah, and it. And. And that factory
Speaker:analogy does come out in patient care. Like I was just saying, they
Speaker:come in, they scan your wristband, you know, then they enter into the
Speaker:computer and it's. They're. They're facing away from you and
Speaker:like, doing computer stuff, and they might look at you for a couple
Speaker:of minutes. That's been my experience.
Speaker:And so my heart surgery was four years ago. As of
Speaker:tomorrow, during. We're recording this on January 14,
Speaker:2025. And that, you know, that was in the heart of
Speaker:COVID And then just last
Speaker:year, I broke my leg and then had some
Speaker:complications and was in the hospital. And I
Speaker:remember all the nurses saying how fried
Speaker:they were, burned out, exhausted, how so
Speaker:much had changed that they didn't enjoy their job.
Speaker:And it. It was really disheartening as a patient to hear
Speaker:that. I mean, I appreciated that they were being honest, but I.
Speaker:I'm worried. I'm worried for us as a society. I'm worried
Speaker:about our. Our healthcare providers. And yes, I have an amazing
Speaker:amount of respect for them that they continue to try to serve
Speaker:patients. But, yeah, there's a real disconnect. And I just keep
Speaker:thinking about how do we have to take it into our. We have to take
Speaker:our health into our own hands and be our own CEOs,
Speaker:and just not Rely on the system.
Speaker:Well, you are certainly not alone. You know, as you said, as we're
Speaker:recording this there in the wake of not only post
Speaker:Covid, but also, frankly, like an
Speaker:administration where there's been some skepticism about health
Speaker:care, which, you know, for the record, is that
Speaker:we. We could say a lot about that, but we won't go there. All this
Speaker:to say that I think what you have felt and what you're sensing is really
Speaker:valid, and it really kind of makes sense how it happened. Like, you think
Speaker:about how any sort of
Speaker:profession develops. Right, let's take
Speaker:medicine. And there's this sort of
Speaker:consensus that in medicine, we want the best
Speaker:medicine available. We want the best tools, we want the best technology.
Speaker:We want to be able to be more precise with
Speaker:understanding disease and symptoms and how to treat it.
Speaker:It's almost like we're getting more and more narrow with our focus.
Speaker:And I think there's a lot of beauty to that. I say in the book,
Speaker:but of course, you know, modern medicine is wonderful for
Speaker:many reasons. I think at the same time, though, as we've
Speaker:become more narrow and more focused and more specialized,
Speaker:we've sort of, as I say in the book, thrown the baby out with the
Speaker:bathwater. We're losing the fact that actually
Speaker:so much of our health, up to 80% of it, is determined
Speaker:by our environment. And that could be true in a hospital, in a clinical
Speaker:setting, as well as outside of it. And it almost
Speaker:feels, I say that 80% statistic because sometimes when I'm
Speaker:talking about this stuff among people in the profession, it almost
Speaker:feels soft, like it feels almost
Speaker:unscientific to say that we need the warmth
Speaker:of connection and purpose, a reason to wake up in
Speaker:the morning. But there is a tremendous amount of data
Speaker:supporting this, all kinds of data showing that how
Speaker:connected we are to our environments and to one another
Speaker:is a predictor of our longevity, our mood, how we do in
Speaker:life. So I think we're at this breaking point now with
Speaker:everything you've described. And there is more of a consensus now that,
Speaker:okay, we need to go back to
Speaker:basics, we need to restore the art in medicine. And one way this
Speaker:is happening is through this thing called social prescribing.
Speaker:Right. Which is just so beautiful. And so I want to
Speaker:get into that. How did you originally
Speaker:learn about this? Because I only know this because of your beautiful
Speaker:book. Yeah, well, thank you. I
Speaker:also hadn't heard of it, and nobody I'd known in
Speaker:the United States have heard of it. But my job is, you know, I'm A
Speaker:journalist. And specifically we call ourselves solutions
Speaker:journalists, people who sort of take a look at the widely felt problems
Speaker:around us and investigate what other places have done a good job
Speaker:of addressing this problem. And before I was a journalist, I was
Speaker:actually a grad school student. And the year I was there in England,
Speaker:it was 2017, 2018, and
Speaker:the UK had just become the first nation in the world to
Speaker:establish a Minister of Loneliness, like a government
Speaker:appointed position for loneliness. And I
Speaker:thought, what the heck is this? Are we really at
Speaker:a point where we need to invest government funding into addressing
Speaker:loneliness? And sure enough, that became my
Speaker:research topic. And I found out, yes, we absolutely do. Because in the
Speaker:UK there's data on this and I'm sure it's similarly
Speaker:true in the US up to 1 in 5 doctor's
Speaker:appointments are made for purely social reasons.
Speaker:So much data suggests that loneliness is a predictor of
Speaker:anxiety, depression, chronic pain, stress, premature
Speaker:mortality, cancer, you name it. Something is telling
Speaker:us that the way we are living is not
Speaker:conducive to our health. And so I learned about this because I was
Speaker:investigating, okay, what is this minister going to do? What are some
Speaker:solutions? And it was through that that I first
Speaker:came across this concept of social prescribing, which just to define it
Speaker:for everyone, is a pro practice through which doctors,
Speaker:therapists, teams of health workers will literally
Speaker:prescribe non medical,
Speaker:local community activities and resources the
Speaker:same way they prescribe pills and therapies. So in my book
Speaker:that means, you know, cycling courses, it means art
Speaker:classes, it means these nature and hiking
Speaker:excursions, volunteer gigs, even just phone
Speaker:call conversations for people who can't leave their homes. And it
Speaker:comes from this kind of understanding that, look, our health is
Speaker:more than just the sum of our molecules and
Speaker:chemical reactions. It also is very much dependent
Speaker:on our connections. And
Speaker:so, yeah, I first learned about it that way and I learned that this wasn't
Speaker:just a good idea, but there was actually some data suggesting
Speaker:that when someone is given a social
Speaker:prescription, it not only helps address whatever
Speaker:the underlying medical condition is, whether that's, you
Speaker:know, type 2 diabetes, depression, chronic pain,
Speaker:it also reduces pressure on the healthcare
Speaker:system. Because all those people, and especially in a
Speaker:place like the uk, where healthcare is nationalized, taxpayers
Speaker:pay for it, there's not enough care, you know, to go around for everybody
Speaker:who needs it, when they need it, they found that social prescribing
Speaker:actually reduces the number of emergency room visits, primary
Speaker:care visits, spending overtime. Doctors are really
Speaker:a fan of it. So there was just a lot of data suggesting
Speaker:that, yeah, this is a timely idea for everything we're
Speaker:seeing in health and healthcare
Speaker:and. All right. I mean, all of
Speaker:that, please. But I'm just thinking. I'm just thinking from the
Speaker:patient's perspective and how much I
Speaker:hate going to the er. I've been way
Speaker:more than is a normal amount. Not there really should be
Speaker:ever a normal amount, but I'm not sure why it said that.
Speaker:But I'm just thinking about. Or make up that there's just less
Speaker:suffering that way. I'm always thinking about
Speaker:people's emotions and mental health through all of
Speaker:this, and the amount of needless
Speaker:suffering that can be
Speaker:lessened through social prescribing. Right. That's where my heart goes when I'm
Speaker:hearing you say all that. Absolutely,
Speaker:absolutely. And, you know, I think that
Speaker:maybe there's this thought, I know a lot of people, and I'm one of them.
Speaker:When I first heard about social prescribing, they thought, really, why do we need
Speaker:a doctor to tell us to go join a cycling course? Or,
Speaker:you know, can this really help with things that I've
Speaker:understood to be purely biomedical conditions like
Speaker:chronic pain? I think that impulse is understandable
Speaker:because every experience we've probably had in healthcare throughout our lives
Speaker:has confirmed that. You know, most of us here in the United States, our
Speaker:early experiences with the healthcare system is like, we have strep
Speaker:throat or an ear infection, and we go to the doctor, they run
Speaker:a test, they tell us, yes, you have this infection, here's an antibiotic, boom.
Speaker:But this idea of actually saying, hey, there are
Speaker:some pains for which you have that are very real, they're not
Speaker:in your head, they are causing some sort of chemical reaction your
Speaker:body. But maybe they're not best addressed by,
Speaker:you know, some kind of medication or even clinical
Speaker:therapy. Maybe they're best addressed or
Speaker:partially addressed right. By what's in your community.
Speaker:Because, look, we're not saying that throw out all the pills, throw out
Speaker:all the surgeries, throw out all the therapies. We need all of that, too. This
Speaker:is about putting another option onto the healthcare menu.
Speaker:And I think it's this type of thing that the more we normalize it,
Speaker:the more we talk about health as something that is the product of our
Speaker:connections, the more we can accept that, yeah,
Speaker:social prescriptions make a lot of sense. You know, what I'm hearing
Speaker:is empowerment. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker:that's exactly it. That was a big theme that
Speaker:came up in all the different patients I interviewed who received social
Speaker:prescriptions. Like, they felt really hopeless. And, you
Speaker:know, Everyone who's ever been in a situation
Speaker:where they needed medical care, they're very vulnerable.
Speaker:How awful is it when you're taking this
Speaker:underlying, you know, vulnerability, fear,
Speaker:discomfort and you're trying all these different medications
Speaker:and therapies or maybe nothing has been tried
Speaker:and you're feeling like, wait a minute, I
Speaker:don't have any power here. If the doctor doesn't know what's wrong or if these
Speaker:things aren't helping me, how am I ever gonna get better? And
Speaker:I think what social prescribing does is, you know,
Speaker:the, the catchphrase in this is flipping
Speaker:from what's the matter with you? To what matters to you.
Speaker:So in that sense it is so empowering. Let us prescribe
Speaker:you what matters to you
Speaker:and let's see how, if you are given
Speaker:the resources and support
Speaker:and accountability to engage in that
Speaker:way. Let's see how you feel. And spoiler alert,
Speaker:they all got better to some level. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker:And, and we can't rely on this as the one magic pill
Speaker:or actual pills to be the magic pill. Right. It's.
Speaker:I have learned through my own journey that it's a multitude of
Speaker:things coming together to, to make, to help me
Speaker:heal and thrive. Another thing, let's see, you
Speaker:mentioned the, the healthcare providers I think were like, or people were like. Why
Speaker:should we rely on people to social prescribe?
Speaker:Well, think of it this way. It's hard to keep track of
Speaker:things when I, I know for myself when I'm in, when I was in
Speaker:fear of my heart, it was hard to remember to take care of
Speaker:myself. And it is completely okay to, to
Speaker:rely and go to a doctor, coach,
Speaker:therapist to help you keep remembering to, you
Speaker:know, wake up, chop wood, carry water. Right. Like all
Speaker:the simple things, there's no, there's no shame in like
Speaker:someone saying, you know, try painting today. Here's why. It
Speaker:will do wonders for your nervous system which will then
Speaker:positively impact your heart. So I'm, I
Speaker:understand the hesitancy there,
Speaker:but we just. There. It's no different than having a post it note to
Speaker:remind you to, to do the things right.
Speaker:So true. Definitely. I mean there's a lot that
Speaker:happens when you elevate from just, you know, I should probably do
Speaker:this thing to. No, I have a social prescription to do this
Speaker:thing. Like number one, you're sort of getting that authority from the
Speaker:medical system. You're understanding that this is like a science
Speaker:backed medicine. It's not just a nice to have.
Speaker:You're also getting the accountability of that medical professional who,
Speaker:you know, after I say, okay, boots, I'm prescribing you a 10 week sea
Speaker:swimming course. I'm checking in at the end of that 10 weeks, and I'm checking
Speaker:in maybe even during that 10 weeks and seeing how it's going. But
Speaker:where I think the most powerful accountability comes from
Speaker:is the other people in the group as well. And also
Speaker:the sheer enjoyment of the thing. Like what I know
Speaker:about you. You know, you were a ski instructor, you've
Speaker:taught, you're a book lover. Everyone could tell from your
Speaker:backgrounds you also have that intrinsic motivation to
Speaker:be doing what matters to you. But then how great is that when
Speaker:then you're meeting somebody who also loves to ski or
Speaker:read or engage with nature. And in those
Speaker:moments, your engagements in this thing that's prescribed through
Speaker:healthcare are not about what was the matter with you, what
Speaker:got you sick, but are about what matters to you. And
Speaker:just that environment and positive mindset
Speaker:really can drive a change in your health.
Speaker:Well said. And speaking of mindset, if I could plug a
Speaker:previous episode because it just pairs so well here,
Speaker:although I'm finding it's going to pair with every episode, is my
Speaker:interview with Dr. Lara Suarez
Speaker:Pardo. She's the cardiac psychiatrist at the
Speaker:Mayo Clinic. And I aired her interview in December of
Speaker:2024. I got to meet her in person at the Mayo when I was
Speaker:there for the Women Heart Conference this past fall. And
Speaker:she talks about making those small changes and like how
Speaker:hard it can be. And she addresses why it's hard
Speaker:and then how to move through the hard. And you know,
Speaker:it's, it's okay to ask for help. It's okay that it's hard. It's
Speaker:okay that I stumble. And the beautiful thing
Speaker:about the social prescribing is that it's mostly free
Speaker:or at least low cost. Right. So, yeah,
Speaker:you travel far if you don't want to. And yeah, so it
Speaker:just, it seems more attainable to me.
Speaker:Absolutely, A hundred percent. And, you know,
Speaker:I mean, we could talk about the challenges with social prescribing. And I'll say
Speaker:that this is not always true, but in many, many cases,
Speaker:not only is it free, but it's covered by your insurance or it's
Speaker:covered by a grant or, you know, it's very
Speaker:rarely a cost to the user. And the other
Speaker:thing is that especially if we talk about older populations
Speaker:where transportation might not be that easy, in many
Speaker:cases, transportation is arranged like one of the chapters in
Speaker:the book goes into this farm
Speaker:for people with dementia. And this
Speaker:woman I Interviewed such a firecracker, so funny, so full of
Speaker:life. Has pretty significant
Speaker:dementia, which means she's not able to drive, which also
Speaker:means she's stuck at home all day with her husband, who, to
Speaker:use her words, says she talks too much. So one of the
Speaker:best things about this social prescription for her to go to
Speaker:this care farm is that not only
Speaker:the activities on the farm, engaging with other people, but
Speaker:she actually is picked up in a van and driven to and from
Speaker:there. That's not only helping her, that's also helping her
Speaker:husband have a little relief from the caregiving elements of this
Speaker:too. So, yeah, in an ideal world, a social prescription,
Speaker:it is going way beyond that recommendation
Speaker:of, hey, you should exercise more or garden more. It's giving you
Speaker:all the tools you need to actually follow through with that. Right. And
Speaker:it obviously impacts the whole community. Right. It like
Speaker:talking about the husband and probably helps the farm. And
Speaker:yeah. So we, in 2025, in
Speaker:the, in the time of where I feel like we're maybe the most
Speaker:disconnected we've ever been, you know, we have got to keep
Speaker:reminding ourselves and each other that we actually really are meant to be
Speaker:connected and that we aren't meant to be in these silos in our houses
Speaker:behind a screen all the time. So
Speaker:our, I want to jump to, let's actually
Speaker:talk about some examples. And the ones I want to talk about
Speaker:are, and these are the ones that myself as a heart
Speaker:patient and other heart patients I've had the privilege of meeting,
Speaker:all have struggled with. I'm going to give the overview and then we'll break down
Speaker:each one real quickly. Loss of connection, dealing with
Speaker:an upsetting event, ruminating on a said event,
Speaker:and then just loneliness. You detailed
Speaker:in the book, those are four separate issues that
Speaker:you can, you can prescribe a social
Speaker:subscription for. So can you, can we break each of those
Speaker:down? We definitely can. And you
Speaker:know, I, I, I think it goes without saying, like, all these are
Speaker:very related. And just as, you know,
Speaker:feeling a loss of connection can lead you to
Speaker:ruminate and can lead to more
Speaker:upsetting events or you interpreting more events as upsetting. The
Speaker:opposite is also true that when you're in an environment where you
Speaker:feel connected, you feel engaged, you
Speaker:feel like you're that setting event, it didn't unhappen,
Speaker:but it's not in the top of your mind. All of these related
Speaker:benefits come too. This is why in our healthcare
Speaker:system, people are very rarely just lonely or
Speaker:just depressed or just, you know,
Speaker:have a congenital heart effect. All of these Things are related. When
Speaker:one part doesn't work, many parts don't work. And just as when
Speaker:one part is healed, many parts can heal.
Speaker:So in the book, I break down the social
Speaker:prescriptions. Social prescriptions in terms of
Speaker:the five core ingredients that were really common around
Speaker:the world. These are movement, nature, art,
Speaker:service and belonging. And even though all of them
Speaker:can sort of be used interchangeably, I tried to break it down
Speaker:in terms of what does the science suggest is most
Speaker:effective for what kinds of ailments. So let's
Speaker:start with ruminating, which, you know, I talk about really in the
Speaker:first two chapters of the book when I'm talking about the power of movement
Speaker:and nature. Now, I know you're a nature lover, too, and so I'm sure this
Speaker:isn't surprising to you, but one unique
Speaker:property of nature is that it has
Speaker:the ability to capture our attention. We're
Speaker:something called soft fascination. We're fascinated by nature
Speaker:without taxing it. And I'm sure
Speaker:you felt this when you're skiing, when you're hiking, when you're
Speaker:cycling, if you're in an environment
Speaker:that is beautiful because, you know nature is beautiful.
Speaker:The problems with which you had before you entered
Speaker:that environment, something you might be ruminating on, an upsetting event
Speaker:that might have happened to you, that goes in the back
Speaker:burner. And how do we know this? We know that nature
Speaker:and movement are effective for treating symptoms of depression, which
Speaker:is very closely related to rumination
Speaker:as well as anxiety, both related to rumination
Speaker:and dealing with an upsetting event. And so
Speaker:my book talks about, for example, this woman
Speaker:Amanda, who had a lot of upsetting
Speaker:events happen in her life. Her mother passed away, she found
Speaker:out her husband was having an affair. She lost her job,
Speaker:she had to move to a place where she knew nobody. And this was all
Speaker:during the pandemic itself. So the big five, as she calls it,
Speaker:five upsetting events. And during that time,
Speaker:how she describes this is she
Speaker:couldn't stop replaying the events of the
Speaker:affair, the events of losing her job, those
Speaker:last moments with her mother, all of these painful things.
Speaker:So she was ruminating, and she describes her state as
Speaker:feeling like her mind was enclosed in a helmet and she
Speaker:couldn't get out of this pain, deep, dark place. Now, when
Speaker:Amanda reports these symptoms to her mental health nurse, you know,
Speaker:she's diagnosed with major depression. And she's put on an
Speaker:antidepressant, the maximum dose. And I'll say for
Speaker:Amanda, she would say that that really helped her with some of
Speaker:the symptoms. But there was still, through all of this, that
Speaker:loss of connection, think about it, she'd had all of these
Speaker:connections in her old home, her husband, her mother, to none of them.
Speaker:That was something that an antidepressant couldn't solve
Speaker:for. So she gets prescribed a 10 week
Speaker:sea swimming course. And I talk about this in the book. But sea
Speaker:swimming is particularly interesting because, you know, you're moving your body,
Speaker:you're doing something physically challenging, and evidence suggests
Speaker:that movement is related to production of serotonin and
Speaker:endorphins and all these feel good chemicals.
Speaker:But you're also in this beautiful natural
Speaker:environment where your attention is being restored.
Speaker:There's a lot of science in the book about how that works as well.
Speaker:So what happens for Amanda? She goes on the sea swimming course,
Speaker:which, by the way, cold water, winter time. Her
Speaker:and like 10 other women are doing this and they're learning safety, but they're
Speaker:also literally going in this freezing cold water. She
Speaker:first of all makes these wonderful friends who she now meets up with
Speaker:not only to swim, but also to have tea with. She has
Speaker:this hobby that she loves. The way she describes it, she feels like she wants
Speaker:to wake out of bed in the morning. She has much more energy throughout her
Speaker:day and she feels like, in her own words, her
Speaker:life became bright again. And after all
Speaker:of that, Amanda was able to go from the maximum dose of the
Speaker:antidepressant to the minimum dose because. Because what happened to
Speaker:her? She felt connected again, she felt less lonely.
Speaker:She, yes, still had these upsetting events, but
Speaker:she had an outlet to deal with them. She had an outlet to
Speaker:deal with the rumination, whereas before she
Speaker:didn't. So that's just one example that really
Speaker:combines those four. But, you know, I would say
Speaker:also art. There's a lot of data suggesting that art
Speaker:is real, really powerful for rumination in particular,
Speaker:because much like nature, it takes our attention to
Speaker:something else. It helps us sort of zoom out, put
Speaker:our upsetting event into perspective and feel
Speaker:like, you know, maybe we're not the only ones who went through
Speaker:this. So that's, that's a little insight into
Speaker:those four. But I could totally understand how for a
Speaker:heart pitch patient, it is all four of those things at once.
Speaker:And so it's important to think about all of those
Speaker:medicines together. Right. And thank you for that. And I love
Speaker:that story in the book. And even though I've never met Amanda, I
Speaker:was, I was right there with her and you set the scene so well. I
Speaker:can picture her putting her wetsuit on and I'm so happy for
Speaker:her that she found that that road.
Speaker:That there was a practitioner who was willing to. To think a little outside
Speaker:the box of norm, of the normal medical system
Speaker:and help her. We all deserve to thrive and
Speaker:we all. It is make. I think it was like make
Speaker:caring cool again or it's cool to care. And the
Speaker:COVID days. And you know, even though
Speaker:Amanda lives far from me, I still want her to be happy.
Speaker:Right? We. We're all energetically connected and
Speaker:I don't think we talk about that enough. So I'm so happy to
Speaker:hear that she. That her suffering has. Cause it sounds like she really
Speaker:was suffering, that it has lessened a lot. You
Speaker:can't. You can't take back any of those events. But
Speaker:yet there is. There is a way to stop ruminating.
Speaker:And you know, I. Because of your book, I've started
Speaker:doing more intentional art. And what was really interesting
Speaker:is when I was waiting for heart surgery, I had
Speaker:to wait like five months because of COVID It was so
Speaker:hard. And a colleague gave me a set of
Speaker:watercolors and I had never done watercolor.
Speaker:And I. That's all I could do. And I
Speaker:look back at my art then with such fondness
Speaker:because it reminded me that I was loved. It reminded me that I could still
Speaker:do something. And I was ruminating because it
Speaker:gave me. I want to talk about that because I think it's important for
Speaker:me. What I've learned through my therapeutic journey with my amazing
Speaker:therapist is sometimes rumination.
Speaker:It gives you this sense of control.
Speaker:So I over researched my different defects. I
Speaker:over researched where to go. I mean, I really like
Speaker:beat the dead horse. And I figured if I
Speaker:learned as much as I could, I could save my life. And if I thought
Speaker:enough about it, I would save my life. And I can tell
Speaker:you all that did was hurt my actual heart because
Speaker:it raised my cortisol, which we know is not healthy.
Speaker:And so that art, that watercolor, as
Speaker:rudimentary as it was, because, like, it's not my first strength. It did
Speaker:get my head out of it. And now I'm doing it
Speaker:more for sense of connection with others. And
Speaker:I am so amused at what I'm
Speaker:choosing to paint. I'm like just choosing like little animals and
Speaker:it is cracking me up and I cannot stop
Speaker:laughing. And then it makes my friends laugh. And then I'm giving all my
Speaker:very rudimentary animals to other friends for them to put on their
Speaker:refrigerators. So like, I've been painting like hippos and
Speaker:like, anyway, so here I am like 46 years old. Right.
Speaker:And I love it. Your inner
Speaker:child. Yeah. And I cannot believe I bring all this up because I
Speaker:can't believe how much better I feel. And, you know, and I'm like, in
Speaker:all sense of the word, I'm doing pretty well. Right. But I. Yeah, there
Speaker:was room for improvement. Oh, my gosh.
Speaker:Wow. Absolutely. You know, so much to unpack there.
Speaker:But first of all, just so glad you found that your
Speaker:inner child is telling you something. And you know what's so great
Speaker:about all of these things, whether it's your water coloring or Amanda C.
Speaker:Swimming lessons, is that unlike medication, which, you know,
Speaker:you take for a certain point and then you stop, this is something you can
Speaker:rely on for the rest of your life because, you know, guess
Speaker:what? There probably are going to be more upsetting events that
Speaker:happen in your lifetime, and there's no way we can control for that.
Speaker:And everything you did there know,
Speaker:reacting to your
Speaker:diagnosis and wanting to know everything you could know and
Speaker:wanting to have the best possible care you could have, and feeling
Speaker:stressed, having your cortisol raised at the prospect
Speaker:that maybe there's something you could be doing better or more
Speaker:controlling. That is so. I don't.
Speaker:I hate the word normal, but that is so in our human nature. I
Speaker:mean, we evolved to want
Speaker:to protect our lives, extend our lives.
Speaker:And that was a big insight for me. Maybe this is like common
Speaker:sense to everyone else, but I had always sort of thought
Speaker:about stress, depression, anxiety, these
Speaker:chronic pain, even these sorts of things as, like,
Speaker:random and very much driven by chemicals. And
Speaker:it's true that these conditions can change our chemical
Speaker:makeup. But actually, to be anxious or to be
Speaker:depressed or to ruminate or to feel stress
Speaker:is a reaction to an environment that is
Speaker:threatening you. So you did everything you evolved
Speaker:to do there. And what is, you know, so wonderful about these
Speaker:social prescriptions and you rediscovering watercoloring
Speaker:is. I. I mean, I'm sort of like tongue in cheek. But I think there
Speaker:is something here about reconnecting to your inner child. Because
Speaker:when we were kids, like, we kind of just accepted that we didn't
Speaker:really have a lot of control. We sort of just did what felt right to
Speaker:us. Yeah, we asked questions. But I think as we get older
Speaker:and we have the Internet and WebMD and, you
Speaker:know, an abundance of resources available,
Speaker:there's this temptation to sort of like, outsmart
Speaker:our stress and fear, and there's less
Speaker:of a willingness to accept that there are just some things we can't control.
Speaker:Control. So the Fact that you boots
Speaker:were able to recognize the wisdom of your
Speaker:inner child there. That water coloring is something that feels
Speaker:good to you. It's something that continues to feel good to you in both stressful
Speaker:times and non stressful times, has been a source of connection for your
Speaker:community. That is so beautiful. And that is what I hope everyone
Speaker:listening can take away. Yeah. Thank you. And
Speaker:I learned through my therapist that, you know, that's parts work. We all have
Speaker:parts to sell, you know, so inner child,
Speaker:firefighter, the manager, and yeah, my
Speaker:firefighter was running around with my hair on fire. And if you watch
Speaker:the. Oh, shoot. What's the movie? It's parts one
Speaker:and part two now. Where it's inside out. Thank you.
Speaker:Yes. And inside out too. Oh, I just love that movie.
Speaker:And it, it is, it is the best. It is the best example
Speaker:of parts work. And it's also just adorable. And
Speaker:anxiety, that moment where I don't want to spoil it for
Speaker:others, but there's just a part of the movie where anxiety takes
Speaker:over. And that was me when I found
Speaker:out that I had all these different defects and I got stuck in
Speaker:anxiety. So watch the movie. It
Speaker:will make your year. It is. It is. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Turn off the
Speaker:news. Watch that. Maybe before we
Speaker:run out of time, there was one other really crucial topic I wanted
Speaker:to just touch on, and that is the
Speaker:dance between artificial intelligence and its
Speaker:role in medicine versus or in.
Speaker:I don't know what the right connective word is there, versus or in conjunction
Speaker:with or in tandem, who knows, with some social
Speaker:prescription. So can we just briefly touch on that?
Speaker:Such a great question. And yeah, it's, you
Speaker:know, it's something that I'm continuing to think about,
Speaker:I'll be honest, and maybe I'll get some pushback for this. Totally understand.
Speaker:You know, after writing this book, I get a lot of, like,
Speaker:inquiries and, and notes from people who are working
Speaker:in AI or the app space. And they
Speaker:said human connection is so important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And here we have this
Speaker:app or this tool that's trying to simulate human connection.
Speaker:And I have to say, my brother, it's funny,
Speaker:this is like a big debate for us every year. My brother
Speaker:works in AI. Love talking with him about this
Speaker:because he just brings so much more insight. And maybe there is a future in
Speaker:which the AI will get so, so good that we actually will
Speaker:be able to supplant human connection
Speaker:with this. My take, though, is that
Speaker:there's a lot of hype about AI right now and for good reason.
Speaker:Like when it comes to diagnostics, when it comes to,
Speaker:I think this is a general rule for AI. When there is
Speaker:some repetitive task that doesn't necessarily feel human
Speaker:and would best be solved by a ton
Speaker:of data addressing, then AI
Speaker:in medicine is great because here's the thing, if we have
Speaker:AI doing more of that diagnostic work, that probably
Speaker:is not the reason why, you know, somebody got into healthcare in the first
Speaker:place, is to run all these tests and, and do all this precision stuff.
Speaker:That's great because it frees that healthcare provider
Speaker:up a bit more to, to better tap into the human
Speaker:part of medicine. And my response to all this would
Speaker:be we have to see. But my
Speaker:instinct is we have
Speaker:these tremendous opportunities and outlets for connection that have
Speaker:been a source of healing for us for
Speaker:thousands and thousands of years. I would like to see more of
Speaker:medicine focus on that rather than this thing that we're
Speaker:sort of like, kind of taking a chance on. You know, it's
Speaker:sort of like, why would you reinvent the wheel? We have this thing in all
Speaker:of its human imperfections. So that's my two
Speaker:cents. Acupuncture. Pretty well established, if we
Speaker:could say. And I just saw like
Speaker:yesterday somewhere where AI data centers
Speaker:and how resource intensive they are
Speaker:and how much water it takes to keep them, them cool
Speaker:and all the electricity it uses. And I'm just thinking about,
Speaker:you know, California at this moment, LA is on
Speaker:fire. And, you know, there's also like, environmental
Speaker:implications. I had no idea till just yesterday. So
Speaker:it's. But I, I like what you just said. Yeah,
Speaker:let's, let's, let's go with what is proven.
Speaker:And then I'm gonna air, you know, we're gonna. This is airing
Speaker:in January and in March, I'm airing an incredible interview with
Speaker:a cardiologist who really is looking to expand AI
Speaker:and heart health. And it's just such an interesting, like, other
Speaker:take on things. And so, you know, it's this,
Speaker:the role of this podcast is just to present you with varying
Speaker:perspectives. But I, I challenge him. I
Speaker:challenge him on the soul connection and I challenge him on
Speaker:the role of AI on our wrists when we're, you know, when our
Speaker:watches are monitoring our hearts and how that actually caused health
Speaker:anxiety for me and I needed stop wearing it. So.
Speaker:Yeah. Oh my gosh, a hundred percent, yes. I
Speaker:think that's a great point about the environmental as well. I
Speaker:think that's absolutely it. Like with all this stuff,
Speaker:just as you're not going to use a social prescription for everything, I don't think
Speaker:AI should be used for everything. I think there are some things, like
Speaker:health professionals right now, they do have way too much to do. There
Speaker:was a study that found it would take a primary care physician
Speaker:in The United States 26.7 hours in a
Speaker:day to do everything they had to do in terms of preventative care,
Speaker:administrative management. And you're thinking, yeah,
Speaker:there's not 26.7 hours in a day. So
Speaker:insofar as AI can, like, support some of
Speaker:that administrative work that everybody hates,
Speaker:that's great. But I do think that what you're
Speaker:saying about your own experience of feeling like you were
Speaker:sort of a machine when you're being treated with
Speaker:so many machines, we can't discount that that
Speaker:is real. That can have health consequences. So as usual, Boots,
Speaker:I'm with you a hundred percent. Well,
Speaker:Julia, this has just been an amazing conversation and we could go
Speaker:for probably the rest of the day, but you have
Speaker:more, more things to do today, so we are going to let you
Speaker:go. But before you do, will you please tell us all the ways we
Speaker:can find you? I will also have it in the show notes, but verbal is
Speaker:also good. Well, Boots, thank you so much. Such an
Speaker:honor to be here. We've been wanting to do this for, I think almost six
Speaker:months, close to a year now, so it's such an honor.
Speaker:Hope this is the first of many. And my the best
Speaker:way to find me is through my socials. I'm
Speaker:at Hot Stuff thoughts on Instagram x
Speaker:hotsthoughts.com and for folks who are interested in learning
Speaker:more about the Connect Secure and social prescribing,
Speaker:encourage you to visit the book website at Social Prescribing
Speaker:co. Thank you. And please encourage your bookstores to
Speaker:get this book if they don't have it already. Encourage your local libraries
Speaker:to order the book. It it just it should be
Speaker:necessary. Read reading. It's rare that I feel that way about books,
Speaker:but I feel like I have some street credit here with knowing that this
Speaker:book really is part of the answer to us thriving
Speaker:as a society. So thank you, Julia and
Speaker:thank you listeners. And if you haven't already, will you please subscribe
Speaker:to this podcast. That way you don't miss another episode.
Speaker:And then lastly, will you please make my year and leave a
Speaker:review? Your reviews matter and it helps tiny
Speaker:podcasts like mine get seen and known around the world.
Speaker:We're already downloaded in 75 countries, which just
Speaker:blows my mind. But I want even more heart patients to
Speaker:find this podcast. So thank you listeners for being here.
Speaker:I wouldn't be here without you. I love you. You
Speaker:matter and your heart is your best friend.
