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Let’s talk about one of the most misunderstood tools in online business: email marketing. Somewhere along the way, service providers started treating emails like spam instead of strategy, and it’s driving Michelle absolutely crazy. Because here’s the truth: email isn’t the enemy. Bad strategy is.
In this episode of The Real Truth About Business, Michelle dives into why small business owners need to stop hating on email and start using it with purpose. She breaks down how to use your list to build genuine relationships, nurture leads, and convert clients, all without being spammy. You’ll hear the difference between poor email practices and powerful communication that actually connects.
Whether you’re a coach, consultant, OBM, VA, designer, copywriter, or ADHD entrepreneur, this episode will help you rethink how you use email as one of your most valuable business growth tools.
You’ll learn:
- Why email marketing still works (and why it’s not “dead”)
- The real reason people get frustrated with inbox overload
- How to ethically and legally grow your list with consent
- What to include in a high-converting welcome sequence
- How to create value-driven emails that people want to open
This is the real truth about business growth, especially for neurodivergent service providers who crave clarity, structure, and results without falling for every trend online.
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Here's your Next Steps:
- Take the "Where's the Gap in Your Business Strategy" Quiz
- Connect with Michelle on LinkedIn, Instagram, Threads or Facebook
- Visit my website to learn more and apply for the Focused Visionary Accelerator
- Sign up for my newsletter - Sunday Morning Brew - delivered every Sunday at 6 am
About the Host:
Michelle DeNio is a business strategist and growth advisor for service-based entrepreneurs, especially neurodivergent and ADHD business owners. Creator of the Focused Visionary Accelerator and host of The Real Truth About Business podcast, she helps clients simplify, focus, and grow sustainably. With 15+ years in business operations, she’s known for turning big ideas into simple, profitable action plans.
Transcripts
Okay, Today's episode is one that is a little bit ranty, it's a little bit spicy, and it's one of these things that drives me absolutely freaking balls to the wall crazy in the online space.
Speaker A:And I'm talking about email marketing, okay?
Speaker A:I'm talking about email marketing and the amount of people that just have the most negative opinions about it.
Speaker A:And I just really want to challenge that because I cannot tell you how many times, especially I see this in online conversations all the time now.
Speaker A:Some of it, I'm like, I wonder if people start these conversations just knowing it's going to get engagement.
Speaker A:Like, sometimes I really wonder if sometimes these conversations are just to create engagement.
Speaker A:But the amount of people that are, like, complaining about getting emails from somebody saying, I absolutely am never going to give you my information.
Speaker A:There's no way I want you added to my list.
Speaker A:If I want you, I'll.
Speaker A:If I want to hear from you, I'll come find you.
Speaker A:Like, in.
Speaker A:It's just mind freaking boggling to me, okay?
Speaker A:Email marketing is not the enemy.
Speaker A:Exchanging information is not that big of a deal when you're exchanging for somebody's intellectual property.
Speaker A:When you're learning, like, learning about each other, nurturing each other, building business, Right?
Speaker A:So I'm going to share a bit of a rant, but I also want to talk strategy in this episode.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So how to actually use email.
Speaker A:Not like a dick and like, not be spamm, but like, how to use it to convert and connect with your audience and how it can be so powerful.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:So a little bit of a rant, a little bit of strategy.
Speaker A:We're diving in.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:Okay, So I want to preface this.
Speaker A:I want to preface this, like, entire episode with a, like, I get it, okay?
Speaker A:I get it.
Speaker A:I get that people suck at email.
Speaker A:I get that we are getting inundated and spammed with really soupy, super shitty email practices.
Speaker A:I understand that we're getting added to lists that we did not want to get added to.
Speaker A:I am getting.
Speaker A:Trust me, I am not immune to this stuff.
Speaker A:I am not immune to it at all.
Speaker A:It's happening to me as well, right?
Speaker A:Like, I get emails from things and I'm like, how the hell did they even find me?
Speaker A:I am not on their email list and I have no problem marking somebody as spam.
Speaker A:Really don't.
Speaker A:However, when is business owner to business owner, solopreneur to solopreneur, online service provider to online service provider?
Speaker A:Like, let's have a little bit of grace.
Speaker A:Especially if somebody is not Being a dick about it, okay?
Speaker A:And I just have had so many conversations lately or been a part of or seen a lot of conversations where people are just adamant that, like, they don't want to be added to email lists, even though, like, for any reason.
Speaker A:And I'm talking like, I want this thing for free, but I don't want to have to opt into it.
Speaker A:Or, you know, I want to do this, this and this, and I want to jump on a call, but I don't want you to be able to follow up with me.
Speaker A:Or, you know, it's like crazy.
Speaker A:Or like they opt into your thing, they say, yes, I want to be on your email list.
Speaker A:And then you send them an email and they get mad about it because you're clogging their inbox.
Speaker A:It's like, what in the hell?
Speaker A:I just don't understand it.
Speaker A:And here's where I really don't understand it is that there's such a double standard in the email marketing space.
Speaker A:When your favorite store sends you a.
Speaker A:A sale email, right?
Speaker A:Like when I don't even know.
Speaker A:I'm trying to think of like, all, any sale.
Speaker A:Like any of my favorite stores send me, you know, coupons and sales all the time.
Speaker A:Like, I love it, I love it.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:And we tolerate it all the time.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:But here's the thing.
Speaker A:The amount of emails that they send me, like big brands where we opt in all the time or we get added because we purchase from them and we stay on their list because we're waiting for that next sale, right?
Speaker A:Like, think about this.
Speaker A:This is not.
Speaker A:You all have a brand where you stay on their email list because you're waiting for that next sale.
Speaker A:Or you never know when you might need them again, or you never know when you might order from them again, right?
Speaker A:And so you just delete their emails or you ignore them and it, it's no big deal.
Speaker A:You don't think anything of it, right?
Speaker A:But yet when it comes from like a small business owner to small business owner.
Speaker A:Solopreneur.
Speaker A:Solopreneur.
Speaker A:You get an email and it's like, what are they doing emailing me, right?
Speaker A:Like, I don't understand it.
Speaker A:Like, the double marketing is so crazy to me.
Speaker A:It's like, why is it okay from.
Speaker A:For big brands to email sometimes upwards of a couple times a day and we, maybe we get annoyed, but we tolerate it, right?
Speaker A:Like, I'm not saying it's any less annoying, but we tolerate it and we don't think anything of it.
Speaker A:But yet if A solopreneur did that, you'd be like, I can't believe they're emailing me and clogging up my inbox twice.
Speaker A:You know, sending me emails, two in one day, like, this is ridiculous, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:But like, they're promoting a sale, right?
Speaker A:Especially like most of the time, if you're hearing from somebody multiple times a day, it's because they do have a sale going on, right?
Speaker A:Or they're in launch season or whatever.
Speaker A:Like, just don't freaking get it.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker A:But here's the thing.
Speaker A:Like, email is not the enemy.
Speaker A:Email is not the problem.
Speaker A:It's that the strategy is, right?
Speaker A:But before I even go into that, like, also I just want to touch on this like mutual respect thing because some of the conversations that I've been having lately or I've been seeing lately are around this too.
Speaker A:Of like, I want to, I want to be able to get your freebie or get your workshop or get a replay of a workshop or get your download.
Speaker A:Like if you have.
Speaker A:For example, I am speaking at a. I'm doing an in person speaking event here in a couple weeks and I.
Speaker B:Have a worksheet, but I only have.
Speaker A:A 25 minute speaking spot.
Speaker A:And the topic that I'm talking on, I really could dive deeper into, right?
Speaker A:I want to be able to dive deeper.
Speaker B:So I recorded it and I also created a more extensive worksheet and I.
Speaker A:The question was like, do you want this?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, do you.
Speaker B:Would you guys want this?
Speaker A:You know, I put.
Speaker A:There was a question that got put out around it and people are like.
Speaker B:Yes, but I don't want to have.
Speaker A:To opt into it.
Speaker B:And it's like, it's my intellectual property.
Speaker B:So you want me to give you my knowledge, my intellectual property for free, which I'm giving you anyways.
Speaker B:But you can't even give me your email address in exchange for that so that I can follow up with you, so that I can try to build a relationship with you, so that I can connect with you as a human, right?
Speaker A:Because a lot of like, if I.
Speaker B:Do something like that, I'm doing it from a place of service.
Speaker B:I'm doing it because I want to be of service to you, I want to help you, I want to support you, right?
Speaker B:And I just don't understand this.
Speaker B:Like, what makes somebody think that they.
Speaker A:Are entitled to somebody else's intellectual property.
Speaker B:For free without the exchange of at least being able to have a conversation or send an email to you to continue to follow up and nurture you or Whatever.
Speaker B:That just grinds my fricking gears.
Speaker B:I just don't understand it.
Speaker B:Now, again, flip side.
Speaker B:Okay, back to email isn't the problem.
Speaker B:The strategy is the biggest problem I see and where I know people get annoyed myself included is when people add you to an email list that you did not give consent for or that they do not have a disclaimer for.
Speaker B:It's not only a shitty business practice, but it's illegal.
Speaker B:There are laws against this.
Speaker B:GDPR can spam.
Speaker B:Like, there's so many laws against this.
Speaker B:You cannot add people to your email list without consent.
Speaker B:Having a conversation with them does not give you consent.
Speaker B:To add them to your email list, you have to have a box that they check.
Speaker B:A disclaimer.
Speaker B:Again, I'm not legal.
Speaker B:I cannot give you legal advice.
Speaker B:I know enough to protect my own ass.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker B:But I'm telling you, like, you have to have at least a disclaimer.
Speaker B:So, like, in that opt in that I was telling you about for that speaking, I do have a disclaimer on it that says, in exchange for this worksheet, you agree to be added to Michelle Denial Consulting's email marketing and whatever.
Speaker B:I can't remember the exact wording of it.
Speaker A:You may unsubscribe at any time.
Speaker A:This is what you can expect from me.
Speaker B:Whatever.
Speaker A:And in my welcome sequence, it's like, here's your.
Speaker A:And I don't even have a shitty welcome sequence.
Speaker A:And I have a.
Speaker A:Here's the thing you got.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:You asked for.
Speaker A:A day later, it's like, did you get it?
Speaker A:Are you having any trouble?
Speaker A:Because tech is tech and people have trouble opening shit all the time.
Speaker A:And I don't want people to ever have that problem of like, hey, I downloaded or I tried to get this thing and I can't get it.
Speaker A:And then like three to five days later, it's like, hey, here's who I am and here's what you can expect from me from an email perspective.
Speaker A:I send a Sunday morning brew.
Speaker A:I send a podcast email that you can opt out of.
Speaker A:I do have my settings again strategy.
Speaker A:Give people the option to opt out of things.
Speaker A:If they don't want to hear about my podcast, they can opt out of that.
Speaker A:And we try.
Speaker A:Me and my assistant, we do our absolute best to respect that.
Speaker A:There are sometimes some glitchy things of likes in the settings.
Speaker A:It can be a little bit difficult, but, like, we really put a very good, solid effort.
Speaker A:And I'm pretty sure, like, we've not had anybody complain.
Speaker A:So I'm pretty sure we're doing it well.
Speaker A:We're like, if people want to opt out, they can opt out.
Speaker A:That's strategy, right?
Speaker A:Like, not every platform allows that, but most of them do.
Speaker A:Most of them allow you to have preferences, okay?
Speaker A:And, like, you have.
Speaker A:But you have to get their consent, right?
Speaker A:You have to get their consent to continue to email them.
Speaker A:And I think it's important.
Speaker A:And I think the biggest thing is how you set the tone the second you email them.
Speaker A:Like, the second they give you their email address, like, that is where you set the tone.
Speaker A:You set the tone immediately if you start emailing them every day.
Speaker A:I was just reading a thread and we were having a conversation about this on threads, about how, like, the everyday welcome sequence is, like, it's not working.
Speaker A:People do not want that.
Speaker A:I don't want to hear from you every single day.
Speaker A:If I opt into your list.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, again, like, it's all in how you create the value and build the relationship from the minute that person joins your email list.
Speaker A:If you continue to give value, if you show that you're a real human, if you give them the opportunity to have the respect to select their preferences, like, it works.
Speaker A:The inbox is not dead.
Speaker A:It's just misused, okay?
Speaker A:It's misused all the time.
Speaker A:But there are so many people that do it well, right?
Speaker A:And I just think you have to have a little bit of compassion.
Speaker A:We are all business owners.
Speaker A:We are all business owners trying to grow a business.
Speaker A:In order to grow our business, we need people.
Speaker A:In order to contact those people, we need a way to contact them, right?
Speaker A:Like, you have to have ways to stay in touch.
Speaker A:Otherwise we would be constantly spend.
Speaker A:All we would do is be, like, spend all of our time collecting people, right?
Speaker A:Like, that's not a strategy.
Speaker A:You can't just collect people and then have no way to stay in touch with them and not be consistent with them.
Speaker A:Like, and build that relationship.
Speaker A:Businesses are built on relationships.
Speaker A:And one of the ways that you can nurture and build those relationships is through email marketing, okay?
Speaker A:And you have to give grace for each other.
Speaker A:Like, if you have given consent and you get an email, do not get freaking annoyed by that, okay?
Speaker A:If it annoys you, unsubscribe.
Speaker A:If you.
Speaker A:If it annoys you but you want to stay on their list, simply hit delete.
Speaker A:I understand the inbox overwhelm is, like, crazy for some people, but, like, go through and just delete it.
Speaker A:Don't have fomo.
Speaker A:Don't feel like you need to read them.
Speaker A:Like, if it's not a topic of interest, if you don't have time, you know how many times it's like, I really wish I could read that, but I'm super busy and I know I'm not going to do anything with it and it's not relevant.
Speaker A:Guess what?
Speaker A:They're probably going to email it to you again because people recycle and there's only so many topics that people talk about, right?
Speaker A:Just delete the frigging thing.
Speaker A:Delete it and clean up your inbox.
Speaker A:Like, don't feel like you got to save it.
Speaker B:Just in case you don't.
Speaker A:It'll come around again, I promise.
Speaker A:Okay, so I don't know, you see how passionate I get about this because I just feel like these are business strategies.
Speaker A:Like, this is business to business, this is doing business.
Speaker A:This is an expectation.
Speaker A:I, if I sign up for somebody's email list, I expect to be emailed.
Speaker A:And again, from certain brands, I hear.
Speaker B:From them every single day and I.
Speaker A:Don'T get annoyed until eventually I like.
Speaker B:Decide I'm either going to buy from them or not.
Speaker A:But some people, like, I even have Gmail where it'll say, like, you haven't opened any emails from XYZ company.
Speaker B:Do you want me to unsubscribe?
Speaker A:No, like I just, just because I haven't bought recently doesn't mean I'm never.
Speaker B:Going to buy again.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker B:So anyway, email still works.
Speaker B:It's still a platform that you own.
Speaker A:Although I could argue that.
Speaker B:I mean, people say you own it.
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker B:I mean, like, if ConvertKit goes down, I'm fucked.
Speaker A:Like my language.
Speaker B:But like, I mean, yes, what I need to do is set it up and export my subscribers on a regular basis.
Speaker B:Like that you do own.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:But again, that's in Google Drive.
Speaker A:And so like, you own it, but like, you've got to back it up, right?
Speaker A:Because if Google Drive goes down and then.
Speaker A:Or you put it on your hard drive and then that goes like, there's always ways that you can lose it.
Speaker A:So like, I hate when people say like, you own it.
Speaker A:Like at this point and in this stage of the game, do we really own anything?
Speaker A:Since everything's on the cloud?
Speaker A:But you have a better chance of being able to stay in touch, right?
Speaker A:And you can export those names, you can share them, you can save them in multiple places and you know who's opening your emails.
Speaker A:The thing about it, why I love email too, is because it gives you facts, it gives you statistics, it gives you data.
Speaker A:You know, who's opening it, you know who's reading it, you know who's clicking on your links, you know, it's.
Speaker A:There's so much information in there that tells you exactly what's working.
Speaker A:You can see what subject lines open, get open better, you can see what offers get clicked on, you can see what strategies are working.
Speaker A:Like, there's just so much.
Speaker A:But also because people are so sacred with their inbox, it is a much like.
Speaker B:More.
Speaker A:What am I trying to say?
Speaker A:The word is.
Speaker A:The word is escaping me.
Speaker A:My ADHD brain is on fire today.
Speaker A:It's a more intimate.
Speaker A:Is what I'm trying to say.
Speaker A:It's a more intimate conversation because it's personal.
Speaker A:In their inbox, right?
Speaker A:It's not just part of the scroll.
Speaker A:Like, and if you do email and write really solid emails, people, people do feel like you're talking directly to them, even though they might know it's a mass email.
Speaker A:Like, they, they also feel like you're talking directly to them.
Speaker A:That's my Sunday morning brew.
Speaker A:I mean, it has such a high open rate because it is so personal, it is so conversational.
Speaker A:And I get replies all the time where people are like, I feel like you're sitting in my living room with me.
Speaker A:Like, I love getting the, the ketchup.
Speaker A:Like, I mean, and so, you know, people love it.
Speaker A:People love being able to connect.
Speaker A:And so it's a wonderful, wonderful way for you to connect deeper with your audience, with your people.
Speaker A:You're gathering people, but you've got to nurture them, right?
Speaker A:And so think about that.
Speaker A:Like, how to do it right is always nurture first, Nurture first.
Speaker A:And you just, you, you have to build that relationship.
Speaker A:You have to prove that you're a decent human.
Speaker A:You have to show them what you know.
Speaker A:You have to provide value, right?
Speaker A:And so just be consistent, be personal, be like, provide value and make, make your emails worth opening, right?
Speaker A:And give people options.
Speaker A:And I'm telling you, you will do it, you will do well with it.
Speaker A:Like, it can really, really work.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker B:And just on the, if you're on.
Speaker A:The consumer side thinking like, I'm the person that hates email, I'm the person that doesn't want to give up.
Speaker A:Like, how do you feel about that?
Speaker A:Like, in exchange for your business, like, do you give away your intellectual property without knowing who's, you know, without having some way to stay in touch with those people?
Speaker A:Like, that's just not a good business practice, right?
Speaker A:Like, yes, we provide value, but we.
Speaker B:Want to know who's, who attended, who's listening.
Speaker A:Who's.
Speaker B:Who's hearing us?
Speaker B:Who are.
Speaker B:How are we creating those conversations, Right?
Speaker A:Like, you.
Speaker A:You have no problem sending a dm.
Speaker A:It's the same thing, right?
Speaker A:Like, it's the same strategy.
Speaker A:Nobody's giving you consent to get into their DMs, but we do it all the time and people love it, right?
Speaker A:People love having conversations in the DMs.
Speaker A:People don't cold, shitty DMs.
Speaker A:But people love to have conversations in the DMs, right?
Speaker A:You can have conversations the same way in your email.
Speaker A:But again, so I'm just, I'm here.
Speaker B:To say if you go to an.
Speaker A:Event or somebody is offering you something for free that you really want, yes, you can go find it on YouTube.
Speaker B:And not have to subscribe or opt in or anything.
Speaker A:Somebody will have posted it on YouTube.
Speaker B:Go find it.
Speaker B:But, like, just think about it and.
Speaker A:Pause for a second and think about just the exchange in the support of being business owner to business owner, right?
Speaker B:Like, human to human.
Speaker B:We're all out here doing our fricking best.
Speaker B:We're all out here, you know, hustling our, like, hustling in the sense of, like, we're just working.
Speaker B:We're working hard.
Speaker B:It doesn't mean that we're, like, burning the candle at both ends.
Speaker A:But, like, we put our.
Speaker B:We put our all into this, right?
Speaker A:We.
Speaker B:We put so much time and energy into these things.
Speaker B:We pour our heart into these things.
Speaker A:Like, is it really that big of.
Speaker B:A deal to give your email address in exchange?
Speaker A:As long as somebody's doing it legally.
Speaker B:And ethically and all of that?
Speaker B:Like, really, I mean, come on, right?
Speaker A:Like, be.
Speaker B:Be a good human.
Speaker B:Be a good business owner.
Speaker A:Support each other.
Speaker A:This.
Speaker B:That's to me, what it comes down to.
Speaker B:To me, this comes down to support and nothing more.
Speaker A:Like, strategy is everything, but, like, is.
Speaker B:That's just one thing.
Speaker B:It's not everything.
Speaker B:It's one thing.
Speaker B:But, like, just supporting each other is so.
Speaker B:There's just so much power in that to just open up an email.
Speaker B:Like, I opened up an email the.
Speaker A:Other day and I was like, I loved this.
Speaker A:This was so good, right?
Speaker B:Like, such a great email.
Speaker B:Like, just.
Speaker B:Just cheer each other on, right?
Speaker B:Stop beating each other down.
Speaker B:Stop freaking getting annoyed at everything everybody does.
Speaker B:Like, if you don't like it, then just walk away.
Speaker B:Excuse yourself, unsubscribe, do your thing.
Speaker B:But don't bitch about it.
Speaker B:Don't get mad about it.
Speaker B:Don't get annoyed about it.
Speaker A:Like, we're.
Speaker B:We're all just out here, doing our best.
Speaker B:Like I said, we're pouring our heart into this stuff.
Speaker A:Like, what's there to really get annoyed about?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Like, if somebody sends you three emails.
Speaker A:In three days and it pisses you.
Speaker B:Off, or it's like, I don't freaking have time for this.
Speaker B:Like, unsubscribe.
Speaker A:The other thing is, it's like, you.
Speaker B:Can always resubscribe when it's not annoying or, like, if you build a better relationship with them, you know, I don't know.
Speaker B:And on the business side of it, like, if you do get unsubscribes, don't take it personal.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Like, some people are basically just saying, like, I'm not your ideal client right now.
Speaker B:I'm not your ideal audience right now.
Speaker B:That's okay, too.
Speaker A:Like, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank you for sharing.
Speaker B:Like, I want to pour into the people who.
Speaker B:It is a good audience, you know, or are the right people in this moment.
Speaker B:It is good timing for them.
Speaker A:So again, it was a rant, but I think again, it just.
Speaker A:It comes down to just supporting each other as business owners.
Speaker A:To me, this is such a simple, simple way to support each other as business owners with very little, very little effort on the other end.
Speaker A:All right, so, all right.
Speaker A:Rant over.
Speaker A:I love you.
Speaker A:I believe in you.
Speaker A:I'll support you either way.
Speaker A:But I feel pretty strongly about this one.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right, I'll talk to you soon.
