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Creating Executive-Level Data Stories - Justin guests on "Revenue Marketing Report"
Episode 4420th August 2024 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
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This week I'm sharing another podcast I've guested on recently: The Revenue Marketing Report, hosted by Camela Thompson of Caliber Mind.

Camela is a veteran marketing and analytics leader, and we have an in-depth conversation about the business and cultural dimensions of reporting: what KPIs are you reporting to different audiences, data rituals, analytics storytelling, and more.

This is a super important topic for me, because how you create and share data stories in your organization can be the difference between building an executive-level presence for yourself or getting pigeon-holed as a service provider.

We'll be back to regularly scheduled programming next week, until then, enjoy the rest of your August.

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Justin Norris, host of the RevOps FM Podcast and Sr. Director of BDR and Marketing Operations at 360Learning, joins our host, Camela Thompson, Go-To-Market Thought Leader and B2B Insights Expert, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report.

Justin shares his insights and how years of experience sitting at the executive table representing marketing changed his views about which numbers matter most and why. They also geeked out over why MQLs are evil, how to build a ritual around data, and why B2B ops and marketing should focus more on learning from one another.

For more great content like this, check out https://calibermind.com/

Transcripts

Camela Thompson:

Welcome to the Revenue Marketing Report powered by Calibre Mind.

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I'm your host, Kamala Thompson, and today

I am joined once again by Justin Norris.

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Justin, welcome to the show.

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Justin Norris: It's great to be back.

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Nice to chat with you, Kamala.

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Camela Thompson: Tell me a

little bit about where you are

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right now and what you're doing.

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I hear you have your own podcast.

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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So my, my day job, I work for

a company called 360 learning.

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Uh, I am the director

of marketing operations.

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So leading the marketing ops team

and my team also supports BDR ops.

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So effectively a rev ops or rev ops

ish role, which is a great company.

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Great place to be.

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I'm having a lot of fun there

in my, uh, copious spare time.

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I host a podcast called rev ops FM.

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Which I've been doing for about eight

or nine months started last fall.

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And yeah, that's, uh,

that's been a lot of fun.

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It's a lot of work, as you know, but,

uh, have been able to have a really,

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a lot of, a lot of really great chats

with people learning a lot and, uh, and

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getting some good feedback on that too.

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Camela Thompson: I always get really

excited when operations folks get a

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peek into how a different department

is functioning, because it's

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always, you always learn at least.

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One thing about how people think if

nothing else, um, before we get into

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our topic of the day, is anything

popping up where you're like,

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wow, that's why they ask for that.

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Justin Norris: I guess

there's, there's two things.

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I mean, with, uh, hosting a podcast,

like you really understand content

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operations and everything that goes into

it, like you have to record, and then

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you have to get it edited, and then you

have to put it up on the audio, and then

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up on the video, and then cut a clip,

and then do the show notes, and then

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do the promo post, like, you know, It's

on and on and on, and you just don't

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expect that when you, you get started.

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So to all the content people

out there that are fighting

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the good fight, I salute you.

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And then, I mean, I've learned so much.

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The other thing, and I don't know if this

is a pleasing or annoying to my listeners.

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I presume the ones that stick around

also enjoy this journey, but I have

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a very expansive view of RevOps.

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So it's kind of like anyone in any go

to market function in any way, because

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the Uh, and sometimes a little outside

that too, because my view is like in

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revenue operations, you're responsible

for the overall health and effectiveness

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of the go to market functions.

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And so you need to understand what

great looks like in every area.

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So, you know, I speak to sales leaders,

sales, individual contributors,

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marketing, CS, some product people.

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Um, and that's what keeps it

interesting for me, quite frankly.

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So I've got nothing, one thing,

but I have, uh, just learned a ton

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about all those different areas.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah, I think, well,

it sounds like I'm not the only person

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who's drawn to revenue operations

because the only constant is change.

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And then it's also this weird balance

of systems, process, and human behavior.

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And you have to get, And know and

care about all of those pieces, you

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can't just get totally sucked into a

systems point, but I'm really glad we

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talked about this because I think it's

going to influence our conversation a

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bit on what marketing metrics should

look like for an organization and

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knowing what the other departments and

particularly what your CEO and CFO care

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the most about, like what's the thing

they're driving the business toward.

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Really should inform how you're thinking

about board reporting reporting to

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the executive review and then QB ours

and then rolling down from there.

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So let's talk a little bit about.

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Um, those different audiences and how we

should think about the level of detail

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because this is something I've gotten

hung up on early in my career for sure.

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Justin Norris: That's a great question.

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And the timing is funny because my

boss, I reported to our VP of marketing.

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She's actually on

maternity leave right now.

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I've been sitting into our, uh, revenue

executive meetings in, in her place,

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kind of doing the marketing report out

to our CEO, our CRO, our CEO, like it's

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kind of all the revenue focused executive

meeting, let's say all the sales leaders.

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And you really see the sorts of

things that they Um, care about

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and are interested in versus like

internally and marketing what we

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care about and are interested in.

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So I've gone through enough iterations

now that, um, able to, to kind of have a

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tight story and a tight set of metrics,

but yeah, it's, it's super high level.

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It's super like what

actually impacts revenue.

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So really just focus on pipeline.

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Um, by each of our markets, if there's

issues, you know, nobody, if things are

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good, you know, you'll get a few, um, hats

on the back type of thing, uh, but it's

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really the issues that people care about.

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So just having a tight story around that

and having, I would say as few KPIs as

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realistically possible, um, that that is.

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Then what's worked well for me.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah.

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And it's interesting.

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I kind of had the same epiphany when

I walked into a boardroom and was

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like, okay, so now I understand why

I was getting all of the questions I

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was getting and I would have answered

them so differently had I know.

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Um, but I really like your point about

as few KPIs as possible at that level.

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And that they really care.

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I always say it's results first, then

it's why it happened and what you're

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going to do differently to do better.

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And that's all they care about.

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So,

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Justin Norris: no, that's, that's perfect.

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I wish I'd said that because that

is a, is the perfect summarization,

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I think of where you need to go.

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Camela Thompson: But let's talk about

a few of the KPIs that you would

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include, um, beyond pipeline at that.

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Yeah.

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Justin Norris: So honestly,

pipe is the main one.

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And then we also talk a lot about hand

raisers, because the way I think of it

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for the C suite, you need like some top of

funnel metric, uh, pipe, and then revenue.

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Marketing isn't necessarily the

one that talks about revenue.

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And then for each of those target

to pace, because that's very

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much like, where, where are we?

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Are we on track?

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If we're not on track, like you said,

what are we doing to get on track?

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Um, for us, the, the top of funnel metric

we really look at is hand raisers, which

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I think is probably the healthiest, um,

One that we have right now by hand raiser,

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I mean, you know, demo requests, contact

requests, someone that's come to us and

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saying, I'd like to talk to somebody

about potentially buying something.

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And that is, in my opinion, the most

meaningful one that we have right now.

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Um, more so than leads, which,

you know, could be anything.

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Um, some of them converted half a

percent, some of them converted 40

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percent more than MQLs, which can

be a really problematic concept.

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So it's the closest leading indicator.

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To actual value, but this is where I find

it can get squishy too, depending on like

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what sort of motion you're running and

what people are expecting to see, but

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really that's, that is what we focus on

hand raisers by by channel target to pace.

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And, uh, and that is the story

that the people want to hear.

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Camela Thompson: Yay.

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Because what I see too often,

and I've consulted with a lot of

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different companies, as you have

in the past, um, a lot of marketing

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leaders, at least in the past, maybe

we're getting better about this.

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Don't keep a really close I on what's

happening on the sales side of the

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house, meaning pipeline and bookings.

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So, um, the best skill I think any

analyst can have is really pattern

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matching and recognizing when you're

ahead or behind pace and recognizing that

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pipelines behind early in the quarter.

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So you can actually.

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Do something tangible

to impact that number.

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Have you seen this shift in focusing

more on pipeline change any behavior

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on the marketing team itself?

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Justin Norris: You know, I came into a

pretty rigorous org in the first place.

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There's a lot of management

consultant DNA, like McKinsey,

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like DNA in our company.

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Um, are this the CMO when I started

was, uh, was former head of operations.

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So.

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A lot of that rigor was, was built out

where we have our KPIs, we look at them.

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Um, and I think we've continued

to increase the discipline there.

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So the one nice thing I can see from,

you know, reporting out on these

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problems every week, like if X channel

is behind this week, they were going to

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respond to it on a week by week basis.

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Not everything is that responsive as like

SEM where you can turn a dial and dial

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it up and if organics behind, there's

not a time that you're going to do.

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By next week, but having that scrutiny,

having that focus and monitoring it

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week to week, I think, um, turns maybe

minor setbacks into victories and

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turns what could be major setbacks

into minor recoverable setbacks.

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So you really do yourself a lot of

favor by having that sort of scrutiny.

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And we have a great dashboard,

um, and Looker that are our data

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team built for us as well that.

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Uh, you know, we'll break down by every

market, and then it'll break down the

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plan by channel, what we're expecting

to get to, and then the key innovation.

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Is just being able to toggle it between

showing our achievement percentage to

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like the total periods achievement,

whether that's month or quarter

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to achievement percentage by pace.

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So it'll look at business days in the

month, deduct, you know, holidays,

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it pings an API and gets the holidays

and stuff like that for that region.

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And then we'll say that you

should be at 60 percent right now.

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You are at 60%.

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Therefore you're at a

hundred percent of your pace.

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And that's really useful because in

the past it was like, all right, we're

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behind you're doing all this back of the

envelope math to try to figure out like

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where are we behind and why and dig down

and it just surfaces those insights for

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you so that you can be more reactive.

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Camela Thompson: So perhaps instead

we compare to nameless companies we've

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both seen as a pretty stark contrast

to, um, maybe almost the norm we see

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versus what you're describing, which

is really advanced and, and impressive.

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Justin Norris: I mean, yeah,

there's, uh, there's a lot of

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unaccountability out there.

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I wonder if it's changing.

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Like I haven't been in

consulting since the.

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Economic reset.

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And I do wonder if companies are

applying more scrutiny now that their

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budgets are being cut now that they

can't just have a cack of anything that

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nobody cares, I think, at least the

voices that I'm hearing and listening

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to it feels like the narrative around

this is shifting and like it's cool

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to be fiscally responsible again.

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So I do.

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I do wonder.

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I don't know what you're you're

seeing out there in the market.

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Camela Thompson: Not really.

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Um, so I think more and more

people are realizing that they

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don't have what they need.

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Not everybody realizes what

that needs to look like.

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So I think this is a really useful

conversation and speaking to, if you

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have all the metrics you just described.

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What are the kind of research drills

you can do to figure out what exactly

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is off and needs to be adjusted?

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Um, maybe that's a better spot to start.

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If, um, we're in month one of the quarter,

middle of month one, and we notice we're

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behind on pipeline generation, What are

some of the diagnostics you recommend

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to figure out why that's happening

or what you can do to turn it around?

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Justin Norris: So I guess number

one, it comes back to your plan.

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We break down our, uh, pipe, uh, plan by

channel based on the first touch, which

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isn't perfect, but you, you sort of have

to pick a lane when it comes to that.

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Um, and so, you know, if you have a

hundred opportunities for the quarter of

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the month or whatever, just for the sake

of round numbers, it's a made up number.

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Okay.

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You know, you have so, so much for

SEM, so much for channel two, so

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much for channel three and so on.

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So number one, you know, the first

drill is like where, well, I guess

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the first drill would be by market.

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We have multiple markets, but each

of the markets have their own leads.

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So in my head, I'm already

down at the market level.

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Um, and then the next

drill would be by channel.

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So like which, which of

our channels is behind?

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Um, once you identify that, you

know, it's really working its

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way back through the funnel.

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So like if we're behind on SEM, how

many, all right, we're behind on SQLs,

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how many hand raisers have we gotten?

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Like is it conversion rate

from hand raiser to SQL?

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Or, uh, do we have a low

volume of hand raisers?

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And if it's a low volume, it's like, well,

how many people are visiting the site?

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Like, are they not converting

on the, on the web page?

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Then you go back to like, how

many clicks are we getting?

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And you can take that back in

that particular channel, all the

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way back to impression share.

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And is our bid strategy off?

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And is our, I mean, it goes down into all

sorts of arcane, uh, Um, pay per click

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lore that is, you know, not something I've

really looked at closely for 15 years now,

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but we have the people that, that do that.

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Um, and so within that channel, you

know, there's, that's probably the most,

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has the most highly observable channel

and the most controllable channel.

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And it's the easiest to work with

compare that to like, um, our organic

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searches down, you know, which is,

uh, a lot more of a, of a lagging.

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Um, lagging metric versus the, the inputs

that you put into it to achieve it.

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It can reflect many things.

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It can reflect brand strength.

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It can reflect your

activity on social media.

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It can reflect, uh, PR.

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It can reflect, you just had a big showing

at a conference, you hosted an event.

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It's a convenience for people that

can't be bothered to type your

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URL into the, into the browser.

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So that's a, that's a, that's

a harder one, but you have

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to kind of have a heuristic.

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And for most of our channels, we

have sort of a decision tree of

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like, if this is off, go here, then

go here, then go here, then go here.

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Um, not all of them can you correct

as much in real time, but at least we

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can try to get to the bottom of it.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah, and your point

about organic and search, it could be an

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algorithm change on Google's part, like

they de indexed a ton of pages back in

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February and we're still figuring out.

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Why that is and how to get it corrected.

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So there's a lot of things

out of marketing's control.

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I think what we're maybe not explicitly

stating is that in order to get to

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this place, you really have to nail

the basics and have your campaign data.

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Organized in a very specific way.

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Um, so I would love to talk to you and

get into the MQL versus hand raise.

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I think I know why you're doing that.

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Um, but let's get into it a little bit.

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Justin Norris: Yeah, we have a legacy MQL.

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Definition that, um, frankly is different

than, um, than anything I've seen before.

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Like the, the conventional like marketing

automation, uh, definition of an MQL.

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It's kind of like a combination of

you're the right person and it's the

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right time based on like a lead score.

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Sometimes a hand raise

would be like an auto MQL.

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And for us, the way that, that we've

used it, It's just, uh, we kind of

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assess you when you come into the system.

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We use Sixth Sense today, so we run

some, you know, Sixth Sense magic

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in the background and we say, okay,

great, you're at MQL, or you're not.

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So I guess it's almost entirely

firmographic and demographic in that way.

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Um, and I don't, I don't love it.

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I don't love the way that we do it today,

but it's baked into so many things,

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and I guess this is one of the things

that, that I've really learned from it.

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As an aside, going from consulting

to, um, to being in house when

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you're in consulting, it's very

easy to be up on your high horse

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and be like, this is the right way.

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And these are the best

practices and et cetera.

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Then you're actually responsible for the

change management and the rollout and

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the, like, what does it actually mean

in terms of work to change these things?

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You're like, you know what?

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That's fine.

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I'm okay with, you know, With that,

like that, you know, that patch on

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the roof, it's not leaking right now.

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I'm just going to leave that there for

now and I'm going to focus on something.

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And you just have to make

decisions in that way.

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Um, so in any event, that,

that is, that is what it means.

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And I'm not saying it's, it's meaningless,

but for us, one of the main things Um,

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when I started that, that we adopted was,

uh, really focusing in on hand raisers,

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splitting them out and understanding

that the level of intent there is, is

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really significantly different than like

somebody that downloads an ebook or, you

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know, by several orders of magnitude.

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And, um, and that that is the best

predictor of our, of our pipeline health.

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So that's why we focus on that.

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Camela Thompson: It's so interesting

because I've been an advocate of,

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um, not relying on lead scoring.

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For to determine what sales is following

up on for a long time, and it's kind of

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sacrilege in the marketing operations

community, because we have this concept of

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level of engagement and firmographic fit.

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But my argument's always been what

we have in our marketing automation

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platform should capture the universe

of marketing touches so far as

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it's reasonable, you know, like

you get into website interactions.

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To prolific, but once we start moving

that data over to the CRM side of the

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house, assuming you have two different

tools or what we raise up to the sales

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team, if you don't have two different

tools, it needs to change into the total

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universe and getting credit for each touch

to what are we communicating to sales?

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What do they need to know about the most?

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And what's the most effective path for

them to convert an opportunity and to

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me that has always been working closely

with the sales team and being able to

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look at campaign hand raises by channel

and looking at conversion rates to

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determine, is this really a hand raise

or should we be routing it to nurture?

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Is there.

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A different path you would take there,

or are you seeing that this is kind

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of working for your organization?

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Just curious, because I agree there

needs to be a fit component, but.

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Justin Norris: Yeah, so I mean a bit

of, um, even more additional context

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there in terms of like our structure

today, it's very BDR focused, so

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we have a strong BDR org, and um,

I spend a lot of my time there.

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I joke like for the first two years

here, I felt like I really spent

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way more time with the BDRs than

I did with the marketing team.

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Um, and just because

there's a lot of BDRs.

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Stuff to put in place, a lot of

different things to, uh, to improve upon.

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So they're responsible for

that, that qualification

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layer before it gets to sales.

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The sales team are really getting

opportunities that are, and there's,

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there's pros and cons to that.

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Um, one of the pros is you're really

preserving your sales team's time.

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Um, one of the cons is that I

think it makes the sales team very

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focused on, uh, on closing and

on like, uh, less, less hungry.

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You can say to be doing some of

that cold outreach to be doing

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some of that nurturing, maybe a bit

more, a bit more transactional, not

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referring to anyone in particular at

artwork, just as a general thought.

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Um, so the BDRs are responsible for

doing that, that qualification layer,

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and we didn't have a lot of nurturing,

like we have newsletters, um, and

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we're still sort of figuring that out.

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Like we think we should be doing

more, um, nurturing, but like the.

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The typical playbook of like, we'll

have a Tofu and a Bofu and a Mofu and

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then we'll split it up by funnel and

we'll just be dripping people e books.

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Um, I don't think it works, uh, anymore.

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I don't think it's that engaging.

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Uh, I get, I have companies

that have like, they've

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:

probably sent me 50 e books now.

335

:

I haven't, I haven't read them.

336

:

Um, so we're, we're still figuring

that out and, and, and kind of evolving

337

:

that and refocusing our, our BDR time.

338

:

So increasingly trying to focus

them and prioritize their time.

339

:

And figure out where so that my latest

thinking on is honestly something

340

:

just think about right now in terms

of nurture is like not having to have

341

:

it be either or like a BDR can reach

out and we have that criteria and then

342

:

we'll do some marketing things and

we don't need to like coordinate it

343

:

so tightly and keep those swim lanes

so separate because they can they're

344

:

different and they can overlap and with

the email marketing our team is really

345

:

leaning into Kind of thought leadership.

346

:

And the way I think about it is it's

sort of like the sub stackification

347

:

of, of nurture where people will

even pay, like, think about people

348

:

pay to receive those emails because

they're from a trusted voice.

349

:

They really believe in that person's

expertise and what they have to say.

350

:

We're really fortunate to have an

evangelist like that on our team

351

:

who has a, an excellent reputation

within the community that we sell to.

352

:

So let's lead into that.

353

:

And, um, that's kind of the

path that we're going on now.

354

:

Camela Thompson: It's

so interesting because.

355

:

Um, as a content marketer, I might be

a little biased, but that's something

356

:

I've seen work over and over again.

357

:

And one of the things that makes

smaller company founders hesitant to

358

:

do that is What if they leave, and

then it's just fascinating to me but

359

:

we're getting a little bit off topic

my fault I tend to squirrel a lot.

360

:

Um, so, just want to be really clear

here that I think I'm going to speak

361

:

for myself and then I'll let you

chime in but I want to emphasize that.

362

:

The measurements that marketing teams

are looking at today aren't wrong.

363

:

And there are a lot of measurements

that the individual practitioners

364

:

need to know, like impressions, cost

per lead, all of that good stuff.

365

:

I think what I would really emphasize

here is that At the executive

366

:

level, you need to understand

what the business cares about.

367

:

And even though you know all

of those other things are super

368

:

critical, it's ultimately about are

we profitable and are we growing?

369

:

Is there anything you would add to

that to kind of clarify the different

370

:

audience, different functionality?

371

:

Justin Norris: No, I mean, yeah, like

it's, uh, It's it's a different story

372

:

for different levels, just like you said.

373

:

So the C suite, we've talked about it.

374

:

Um, for marketing leadership, you

know, when we meet, um, with myself

375

:

and our boss and the other marketing

directors, we go maybe one level deeper

376

:

and we're looking at some of the, uh,

more channel specific leading metrics.

377

:

Certainly, if we're troubleshooting

something, we're going way deeper.

378

:

Uh, if we're, we have alignment meetings

with ops and our BDR coaches and, um,

379

:

our demand gen leads in each market.

380

:

And there we look at a different set

of meetings, you know, around our

381

:

different set of KPIs, rather around

meetings and SLAs and that sort of thing.

382

:

Um, so in large part, it depends on

like what, Is relevant to you, um, to

383

:

help you, you know, run your part of the

business and for sales, it's more like,

384

:

you know, yeah, if I'm a CRO, I just

want to know, like, is the pipe coming?

385

:

Is the train on time there?

386

:

Am I going to be fine?

387

:

Uh, that's one level.

388

:

Uh, if you're meeting with your

BDR coaches, they're really

389

:

concerned about, like, am I going

to be getting enough lead flow?

390

:

Is that lead quality good?

391

:

And the demand gen is like, are you, you

know, Reaching out to them quickly enough.

392

:

Um, are you, you know, these

leads that I'm investing in?

393

:

Are you responding to them?

394

:

Are they sitting in kind

of spoiling on the vine?

395

:

Um, so it's very contextual in that way.

396

:

And then all the way down to

like, you know, like we alluded

397

:

to with those, those metrics about

impression share and stuff like that.

398

:

Um, and with operations people, they

tend to like to get really granular

399

:

and we really have a culture of

like challenging each other and

400

:

where ops is expected is one of the

things I really like is we're not.

401

:

Yeah.

402

:

In this more service oriented posture,

but really expected to come in and

403

:

be like, Hey, like we're down on SEM.

404

:

Like, why is that?

405

:

And like, go with them on that journey,

not from a, like, you know, naughty boys

406

:

and girls kind of, um, vibe, but more to

help them understand to be knowledgeable.

407

:

So that's, that's really great.

408

:

And I think as an individual protection

practitioner, With a channel, who

409

:

owns a channel, you're going to

want to go as deep as you need to.

410

:

But yeah, the heuristic for me is

like, what do you need to know to

411

:

drive your part of the business?

412

:

What's relevant?

413

:

Too much, uh, kind of data, data puking.

414

:

I forget the fellow Avinash Kaushik,

uh, analytics dude has been around

415

:

for a while as a somewhat gruesome

phrase, but it kind of works, right?

416

:

Like too much.

417

:

And it's like, I can't absorb that.

418

:

I'm an English major.

419

:

I like to joke.

420

:

I.

421

:

I actually don't readily

absorb numbers and, and stats,

422

:

like it takes effort for me.

423

:

So I, this is maybe also why I'm more

focused on story and like, what is the

424

:

story that these things are telling?

425

:

Camela Thompson: That's actually such a

good thing, I think, for an analyst to

426

:

kind of know about themselves because I'm.

427

:

Very data literate and pattern

matching is just second nature.

428

:

So I would put up these big charts

and expect everybody to see what I

429

:

saw at the beginning of my career.

430

:

And it was embarrassing.

431

:

I mean, I look back on it and I'm

like, Oh, it's all about the story.

432

:

I'm sorry.

433

:

Whoops.

434

:

Justin Norris: But yeah, I think, I

think for anyone that, that is, that

435

:

is, I mean, there are those people who

can look at a huge chart and just grow,

436

:

click, Oh, wait, that's, that's odd.

437

:

Like just zero, you know, and that is

a wonderful skill, one I wish I had.

438

:

Um, but ultimately for any audience,

it's really like, it's a narrative.

439

:

So back to marketing, right?

440

:

Um, yeah.

441

:

Whether focused internally or externally.

442

:

Camela Thompson: So I really, I think

it's so cool that you are getting

443

:

such exposure with the executive

team in these data reviews and seeing

444

:

firsthand what they care about for the

marketing operations people listening

445

:

that don't have that kind of access.

446

:

What would you really want them to take

away and start putting into practice?

447

:

Justin Norris: That's a great question.

448

:

I think historically, at least as I have

come up through it, my experience has

449

:

been that the marketing ops discipline has

been very, uh, tech and process oriented.

450

:

So it's often like people that like,

Ooh, I can run Marketo or I can run

451

:

part out or HubSpot or whatever.

452

:

And, um, so very business systems y.

453

:

Is the, is the flavor.

454

:

And often that can also mean like

less business acumen, potentially

455

:

even less interest in that sort of

like, like that's marketing's problem.

456

:

We're just going to figure out

how to do what they ask us to do.

457

:

And I understand being in that place.

458

:

And, um, and if that's what

you're interested in, that's fine.

459

:

Like be conscious of that

and choose that path.

460

:

But if you're more of a marketing

ops leader or someone who aspires

461

:

to be one, I think you have to be

plugged into the business side.

462

:

You have to know your metrics.

463

:

You should, if someone, you know.

464

:

Pop quizzed you like, how

are we doing right now?

465

:

You should be able to answer

those questions and take

466

:

that sort of accountability.

467

:

Um, I think you should view yourself and

aspire to be kind of the second in command

468

:

to your marketing leader, a thought

partner, um, someone who's there like

469

:

kind of backing them up, um, sort of the

chief of staff to the CMO role that we've

470

:

started to see more and more, which I

think is super interesting and to act that

471

:

way, even though that's not your title.

472

:

And, um, and then I think you'll.

473

:

Get involved in more of those discussions.

474

:

You will proactively add value.

475

:

You'll be perceived as, um, mature

and, and business oriented and

476

:

someone who's there for the business,

not just to like run systems.

477

:

And that is a, I think a huge

boost to your career and just

478

:

a change in your mindset too.

479

:

Cause even when it comes to your

tech projects and your, you know,

480

:

the things that you choose to

prioritize are going to be different.

481

:

If you have that awareness.

482

:

Camela Thompson: That

was perfectly stated.

483

:

That's amazing.

484

:

Um, and I think I'm so excited because

I'm watching major market trends.

485

:

I think marketing is becoming more

and more critical to the business

486

:

and the health and scale of the

business just because of how buyer

487

:

behavior has morphed over the years.

488

:

I think customer success

is also on the uptick.

489

:

We've seen that with the whole land

and expand mantra that all of us

490

:

have had beaten into our heads.

491

:

So we can't afford anymore to operate in a

silo and ignore what the other departments

492

:

need for everyone to work well together.

493

:

And just, that's perfect.

494

:

Justin Norris: It comes back to

marketing also being perceived as a,

495

:

as a kind of a mature and legitimate.

496

:

Business function as well.

497

:

Like there's a macrocosm of of that

where marketing needs to be really

498

:

aligned with sales to care about

it to work in lockstep with them.

499

:

Um, so those conversations

are super important too.

500

:

Camela Thompson: Yeah.

501

:

Yeah.

502

:

I don't think we can afford

to ignore data anymore.

503

:

And I don't think we can

define what a qualified lead

504

:

is in a silo anymore either.

505

:

Justin Norris: So we hit our lead target.

506

:

We're good.

507

:

Like,

508

:

Camela Thompson: We haven't

hit our pipeline number.

509

:

Doesn't matter.

510

:

Justin, thank you so much.

511

:

Is there anything else you'd

like to add before we talk

512

:

about where people can find you?

513

:

Justin Norris: We talked about

story and that's really important.

514

:

The other thing that I think is

we're thinking about our routines

515

:

and rituals, because I think when

you review the data is just as

516

:

important as what you're reviewing.

517

:

Having those regular meetings,

Those regular standing

518

:

cadences is really important.

519

:

It may seem like, oh, we can all

look at these reports asynchronously,

520

:

but you, you don't always do that.

521

:

So having that forcing function

where you know that you're gonna

522

:

have to stand up in front of your

peers or in front of executives

523

:

and sort of account for yourself.

524

:

Uh, it, it focuses your mind in a, in

a positive way in the sense that you're

525

:

going to apply scrutiny in areas where

you need, you're going to make sure, you

526

:

know, uh, you're going to check in, you

know, having this ritual kind of in my,

527

:

in my plate for a few months, uh, I'm much

closer with our DG team right now, like,

528

:

Hey, why are we, I noticed we're down in

this channel, in this market, like why,

529

:

Hey, Let me understand why, um, so I could

speak to that and, uh, and that's great.

530

:

You know, that's, that's really helpful

for me or like the routines I mentioned

531

:

with our BDR leaders or, you know, just

having, Having those rituals, uh, even,

532

:

even for yourself, like a block time in my

calendar each day to go and look through

533

:

a set of key reports to make sure I'm

there and focusing your mind on the KPIs

534

:

that matter for the business, I think is

the most important thing you can do to

535

:

drive more impact as a, as a professional,

because then everything else, um, that

536

:

you choose to do, that you prioritize

is going to be seen through that lens.

537

:

As opposed to like shiny object.

538

:

Ooh, this is interesting.

539

:

I'll buy this new tool, you

know, that's that sort of thing.

540

:

So yeah, if you implement one

ritual, I think that is, uh, is

541

:

something that's really important.

542

:

Camela Thompson: That's so spot on

because I always say, if you look at

543

:

your numbers quarterly, it's too late.

544

:

It is not a good story to the board

to get the pipeline and bookings

545

:

data at the end of the quarter and

say, whoops, we missed everything.

546

:

If you can say we saw we were

behind on pipeline and we responded

547

:

by doing these five things.

548

:

And you turned it around at least to a

degree, that is such a better story to

549

:

tell your executive team, they trust

that you understand the business more.

550

:

There's just, it's wise, it's very wise.

551

:

And then the other piece, I, agree

that it has to be a ritual that's

552

:

done in public, you know, by meeting

because recent research and I'll link

553

:

the research study in the show notes,

26 percent of marketers admit that

554

:

they ignore the write ups and insights

that their analyst team sends out.

555

:

And another 22 percent admitted to

ignoring their recommendations and going

556

:

by gut because that's what they prefer.

557

:

So I think we're still in a very heavy

558

:

Intuitive marketing state still,

or random acts of marketing, and

559

:

I don't think that's going to

be tolerated for much longer.

560

:

Justin Norris: I agree with you.

561

:

And actually, if we have time

for one other fun thing, and

562

:

tell me if we don't, but No,

563

:

Camela Thompson: absolutely.

564

:

Justin Norris: AI.

565

:

Uh, this is an interesting area, and

I know I almost feel cringy saying AI,

566

:

because it's like, AI, everything's

AI right now, but Um, I have thought

567

:

a lot about like, where can this

actually help and where can't it?

568

:

And I did earlier in the year, sort

of a big review of like, what are all

569

:

the possible use cases and where, and

like you said, pattern matching is

570

:

where I think AI can really, really

help because that's what it excels at.

571

:

It doesn't excel at truly understanding

human emotion or human psychology, even

572

:

though it can sort of approximate it at

times, but observing patterns and things.

573

:

It's perfect.

574

:

And so I only did a cursory review

at that time of tools that are

575

:

helping add sort of that analysis

layer that initial analysis later.

576

:

Like, hey, you may want to look at this.

577

:

This is up or this is down or or

doing some of that analytical work

578

:

for the human being a copilot.

579

:

I see that as a really valid and

promising, uh, use case for AI.

580

:

I don't even know what's

happened in the last six months.

581

:

I haven't checked again, but I think

that's an exciting possibility.

582

:

Camela Thompson: I am excited about that.

583

:

And I am also really excited about the

impacts and implications for qualitative.

584

:

Data that is unstructured

and normally we can analyze.

585

:

So for like, um, sales call recordings

and analyzing competitive keywords.

586

:

Oh my gosh, it's going

to be a game changer.

587

:

Justin Norris: That is the area that I've

been focused on the most because I think,

588

:

um, like, like you, I am, you know, really

obsessed with, with customer insights.

589

:

And I think the qualitative.

590

:

It's just as important

or if not, not more.

591

:

So my, uh, one of my bosses, our, our

COO, he's like, you know, the, the

592

:

quantitative tells you what happened,

but the qualitative tells you why.

593

:

And he probably listens to more calls

than anybody else in the organization.

594

:

And, um, and so being able to like mine

that data, like have it as a corpus of, of

595

:

information that AI can look through and

be like, what are the, what are the most

596

:

common pain points that are discussed?

597

:

You know, Gong doesn't

really let you do this yet.

598

:

Search across accounts, across

all calls of a certain type.

599

:

I'm sure they're going to get there.

600

:

But even, you know, I saw the other

day a BDR, just of her own initiative,

601

:

because it takes time, they have a

discovery call, then they have these

602

:

10 questions they need to answer.

603

:

She developed a prompt, and would just

feed the transcript into ChatGPT, and it

604

:

would spit the answers back out at her.

605

:

Camela Thompson: I love it!

606

:

Justin Norris: Wow, like, we've got to

roll this out, you know, to everybody

607

:

somehow, because Uh, and just seeing

it work, I was like, well, this is,

608

:

this is the way it's going to happen.

609

:

Camela Thompson: All about time savings

and you have to use human oversight still.

610

:

I mean, and I, I think we will for

a very long time, but if you're not

611

:

using it now to figure out productivity

gains, you're going to be so behind

612

:

everybody else in the Met market.

613

:

And I just love that

context truly is everything.

614

:

And I think marketing operators can learn

more from marketing by lifting their heads

615

:

up every once in a while and reading the

room and talking to the executive team.

616

:

And I think marketers can learn

from operators by taking some time

617

:

to look at the numbers and seeing

how that ties into the context.

618

:

I think there's A lot we

can gain from one another.

619

:

Justin Norris: A hundred percent.

620

:

Camela Thompson: Justin, thank

you so much for being on the show.

621

:

It's always a pleasure to geek

out with you over this stuff.

622

:

Justin Norris: Always enjoy it.

623

:

Camela Thompson: Thank you.

624

:

Where can people find

you online to network?

625

:

Yeah,

626

:

Justin Norris: yeah.

627

:

So, uh, you can find me on

LinkedIn, uh, just search my name.

628

:

I'll pop up.

629

:

And if you're interested, uh, in

the show, it's called RevOps FM.

630

:

Two words you can find it.

631

:

On, uh, wherever you get your podcasts,

Spotify, Apple podcasts, or go to revops.

632

:

fm forward slash subscribe.

633

:

And that'll take you to my sub stack and

then post all the episodes there as well.

634

:

Camela Thompson: Listeners.

635

:

Thank you so much for tuning in

to the revenue marketing report.

636

:

Please tell two friends, subscribe,

download, whatever you can helps.

637

:

And for those of you looking

for more great content like

638

:

this, check out calibermine.

639

:

com

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