This week I'm sharing another podcast I've guested on recently: The Revenue Marketing Report, hosted by Camela Thompson of Caliber Mind.

Camela is a veteran marketing and analytics leader, and we have an in-depth conversation about the business and cultural dimensions of reporting: what KPIs are you reporting to different audiences, data rituals, analytics storytelling, and more.

This is a super important topic for me, because how you create and share data stories in your organization can be the difference between building an executive-level presence for yourself or getting pigeon-holed as a service provider.

We'll be back to regularly scheduled programming next week, until then, enjoy the rest of your August.

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Justin Norris, host of the RevOps FM Podcast and Sr. Director of BDR and Marketing Operations at 360Learning, joins our host, Camela Thompson, Go-To-Market Thought Leader and B2B Insights Expert, in this episode of the Revenue Marketing Report.

Justin shares his insights and how years of experience sitting at the executive table representing marketing changed his views about which numbers matter most and why. They also geeked out over why MQLs are evil, how to build a ritual around data, and why B2B ops and marketing should focus more on learning from one another.

For more great content like this, check out https://calibermind.com/

Welcome to the Revenue Marketing Report powered by Calibre Mind.

2

I'm your host, Kamala Thompson, and today

I am joined once again by Justin Norris.

3

Justin, welcome to the show.

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Justin Norris: It's great to be back.

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Nice to chat with you, Kamala.

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Camela Thompson: Tell me a

little bit about where you are

7

right now and what you're doing.

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I hear you have your own podcast.

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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So my, my day job, I work for

a company called 360 learning.

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Uh, I am the director

of marketing operations.

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So leading the marketing ops team

and my team also supports BDR ops.

13

So effectively a rev ops or rev ops

ish role, which is a great company.

14

Great place to be.

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I'm having a lot of fun there

in my, uh, copious spare time.

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I host a podcast called rev ops FM.

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Which I've been doing for about eight

or nine months started last fall.

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And yeah, that's, uh,

that's been a lot of fun.

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It's a lot of work, as you know, but,

uh, have been able to have a really,

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a lot of, a lot of really great chats

with people learning a lot and, uh, and

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getting some good feedback on that too.

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Camela Thompson: I always get really

excited when operations folks get a

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peek into how a different department

is functioning, because it's

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always, you always learn at least.

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One thing about how people think if

nothing else, um, before we get into

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our topic of the day, is anything

popping up where you're like,

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wow, that's why they ask for that.

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Justin Norris: I guess

there's, there's two things.

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I mean, with, uh, hosting a podcast,

like you really understand content

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operations and everything that goes into

it, like you have to record, and then

31

you have to get it edited, and then you

have to put it up on the audio, and then

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up on the video, and then cut a clip,

and then do the show notes, and then

33

do the promo post, like, you know, It's

on and on and on, and you just don't

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expect that when you, you get started.

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So to all the content people

out there that are fighting

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the good fight, I salute you.

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And then, I mean, I've learned so much.

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The other thing, and I don't know if this

is a pleasing or annoying to my listeners.

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I presume the ones that stick around

also enjoy this journey, but I have

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a very expansive view of RevOps.

41

So it's kind of like anyone in any go

to market function in any way, because

42

the Uh, and sometimes a little outside

that too, because my view is like in

43

revenue operations, you're responsible

for the overall health and effectiveness

44

of the go to market functions.

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And so you need to understand what

great looks like in every area.

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So, you know, I speak to sales leaders,

sales, individual contributors,

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marketing, CS, some product people.

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Um, and that's what keeps it

interesting for me, quite frankly.

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So I've got nothing, one thing,

but I have, uh, just learned a ton

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about all those different areas.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah, I think, well,

it sounds like I'm not the only person

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who's drawn to revenue operations

because the only constant is change.

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And then it's also this weird balance

of systems, process, and human behavior.

54

And you have to get, And know and

care about all of those pieces, you

55

can't just get totally sucked into a

systems point, but I'm really glad we

56

talked about this because I think it's

going to influence our conversation a

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bit on what marketing metrics should

look like for an organization and

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knowing what the other departments and

particularly what your CEO and CFO care

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the most about, like what's the thing

they're driving the business toward.

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Really should inform how you're thinking

about board reporting reporting to

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the executive review and then QB ours

and then rolling down from there.

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So let's talk a little bit about.

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Um, those different audiences and how we

should think about the level of detail

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because this is something I've gotten

hung up on early in my career for sure.

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Justin Norris: That's a great question.

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And the timing is funny because my

boss, I reported to our VP of marketing.

67

She's actually on

maternity leave right now.

68

I've been sitting into our, uh, revenue

executive meetings in, in her place,

69

kind of doing the marketing report out

to our CEO, our CRO, our CEO, like it's

70

kind of all the revenue focused executive

meeting, let's say all the sales leaders.

71

And you really see the sorts of

things that they Um, care about

72

and are interested in versus like

internally and marketing what we

73

care about and are interested in.

74

So I've gone through enough iterations

now that, um, able to, to kind of have a

75

tight story and a tight set of metrics,

but yeah, it's, it's super high level.

76

It's super like what

actually impacts revenue.

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So really just focus on pipeline.

78

Um, by each of our markets, if there's

issues, you know, nobody, if things are

79

good, you know, you'll get a few, um, hats

on the back type of thing, uh, but it's

80

really the issues that people care about.

81

So just having a tight story around that

and having, I would say as few KPIs as

82

realistically possible, um, that that is.

83

Then what's worked well for me.

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Camela Thompson: Yeah.

85

And it's interesting.

86

I kind of had the same epiphany when

I walked into a boardroom and was

87

like, okay, so now I understand why

I was getting all of the questions I

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was getting and I would have answered

them so differently had I know.

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Um, but I really like your point about

as few KPIs as possible at that level.

90

And that they really care.

91

I always say it's results first, then

it's why it happened and what you're

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going to do differently to do better.

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And that's all they care about.

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So,

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Justin Norris: no, that's, that's perfect.

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I wish I'd said that because that

is a, is the perfect summarization,

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I think of where you need to go.

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Camela Thompson: But let's talk about

a few of the KPIs that you would

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include, um, beyond pipeline at that.

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Yeah.

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Justin Norris: So honestly,

pipe is the main one.

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And then we also talk a lot about hand

raisers, because the way I think of it

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for the C suite, you need like some top of

funnel metric, uh, pipe, and then revenue.

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Marketing isn't necessarily the

one that talks about revenue.

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And then for each of those target

to pace, because that's very

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much like, where, where are we?

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Are we on track?

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If we're not on track, like you said,

what are we doing to get on track?

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Um, for us, the, the top of funnel metric

we really look at is hand raisers, which

110

I think is probably the healthiest, um,

One that we have right now by hand raiser,

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I mean, you know, demo requests, contact

requests, someone that's come to us and

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saying, I'd like to talk to somebody

about potentially buying something.

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And that is, in my opinion, the most

meaningful one that we have right now.

114

Um, more so than leads, which,

you know, could be anything.

115

Um, some of them converted half a

percent, some of them converted 40

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percent more than MQLs, which can

be a really problematic concept.

117

So it's the closest leading indicator.

118

To actual value, but this is where I find

it can get squishy too, depending on like

119

what sort of motion you're running and

what people are expecting to see, but

120

really that's, that is what we focus on

hand raisers by by channel target to pace.

121

And, uh, and that is the story

that the people want to hear.

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Camela Thompson: Yay.

123

Because what I see too often,

and I've consulted with a lot of

124

different companies, as you have

in the past, um, a lot of marketing

125

leaders, at least in the past, maybe

we're getting better about this.

126

Don't keep a really close I on what's

happening on the sales side of the

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house, meaning pipeline and bookings.

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So, um, the best skill I think any

analyst can have is really pattern

129

matching and recognizing when you're

ahead or behind pace and recognizing that

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pipelines behind early in the quarter.

131

So you can actually.

132

Do something tangible

to impact that number.

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Have you seen this shift in focusing

more on pipeline change any behavior

134

on the marketing team itself?

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Justin Norris: You know, I came into a

pretty rigorous org in the first place.

136

There's a lot of management

consultant DNA, like McKinsey,

137

like DNA in our company.

138

Um, are this the CMO when I started

was, uh, was former head of operations.

139

So.

140

A lot of that rigor was, was built out

where we have our KPIs, we look at them.

141

Um, and I think we've continued

to increase the discipline there.

142

So the one nice thing I can see from,

you know, reporting out on these

143

problems every week, like if X channel

is behind this week, they were going to

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respond to it on a week by week basis.

145

Not everything is that responsive as like

SEM where you can turn a dial and dial

146

it up and if organics behind, there's

not a time that you're going to do.

147

By next week, but having that scrutiny,

having that focus and monitoring it

148

week to week, I think, um, turns maybe

minor setbacks into victories and

149

turns what could be major setbacks

into minor recoverable setbacks.

150

So you really do yourself a lot of

favor by having that sort of scrutiny.

151

And we have a great dashboard,

um, and Looker that are our data

152

team built for us as well that.

153

Uh, you know, we'll break down by every

market, and then it'll break down the

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plan by channel, what we're expecting

to get to, and then the key innovation.

155

Is just being able to toggle it between

showing our achievement percentage to

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like the total periods achievement,

whether that's month or quarter

157

to achievement percentage by pace.

158

So it'll look at business days in the

month, deduct, you know, holidays,

159

it pings an API and gets the holidays

and stuff like that for that region.

160

And then we'll say that you

should be at 60 percent right now.

161

You are at 60%.

162

Therefore you're at a

hundred percent of your pace.

163

And that's really useful because in

the past it was like, all right, we're

164

behind you're doing all this back of the

envelope math to try to figure out like

165

where are we behind and why and dig down

and it just surfaces those insights for

166

you so that you can be more reactive.

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Camela Thompson: So perhaps instead

we compare to nameless companies we've

168

both seen as a pretty stark contrast

to, um, maybe almost the norm we see

169

versus what you're describing, which

is really advanced and, and impressive.

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Justin Norris: I mean, yeah,

there's, uh, there's a lot of

171

unaccountability out there.

172

I wonder if it's changing.

173

Like I haven't been in

consulting since the.

174

Economic reset.

175

And I do wonder if companies are

applying more scrutiny now that their

176

budgets are being cut now that they

can't just have a cack of anything that

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nobody cares, I think, at least the

voices that I'm hearing and listening

178

to it feels like the narrative around

this is shifting and like it's cool

179

to be fiscally responsible again.

180

So I do.

181

I do wonder.

182

I don't know what you're you're

seeing out there in the market.

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Camela Thompson: Not really.

184

Um, so I think more and more

people are realizing that they

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don't have what they need.

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Not everybody realizes what

that needs to look like.

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So I think this is a really useful

conversation and speaking to, if you

188

have all the metrics you just described.

189

What are the kind of research drills

you can do to figure out what exactly

190

is off and needs to be adjusted?

191

Um, maybe that's a better spot to start.

192

If, um, we're in month one of the quarter,

middle of month one, and we notice we're

193

behind on pipeline generation, What are

some of the diagnostics you recommend

194

to figure out why that's happening

or what you can do to turn it around?

195

Justin Norris: So I guess number

one, it comes back to your plan.

196

We break down our, uh, pipe, uh, plan by

channel based on the first touch, which

197

isn't perfect, but you, you sort of have

to pick a lane when it comes to that.

198

Um, and so, you know, if you have a

hundred opportunities for the quarter of

199

the month or whatever, just for the sake

of round numbers, it's a made up number.

200

Okay.

201

You know, you have so, so much for

SEM, so much for channel two, so

202

much for channel three and so on.

203

So number one, you know, the first

drill is like where, well, I guess

204

the first drill would be by market.

205

We have multiple markets, but each

of the markets have their own leads.

206

So in my head, I'm already

down at the market level.

207

Um, and then the next

drill would be by channel.

208

So like which, which of

our channels is behind?

209

Um, once you identify that, you

know, it's really working its

210

way back through the funnel.

211

So like if we're behind on SEM, how

many, all right, we're behind on SQLs,

212

how many hand raisers have we gotten?

213

Like is it conversion rate

from hand raiser to SQL?

214

Or, uh, do we have a low

volume of hand raisers?

215

And if it's a low volume, it's like, well,

how many people are visiting the site?

216

Like, are they not converting

on the, on the web page?

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Then you go back to like, how

many clicks are we getting?

218

And you can take that back in

that particular channel, all the

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way back to impression share.

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And is our bid strategy off?

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And is our, I mean, it goes down into all

sorts of arcane, uh, Um, pay per click

222

lore that is, you know, not something I've

really looked at closely for 15 years now,

223

but we have the people that, that do that.

224

Um, and so within that channel, you

know, there's, that's probably the most,

225

has the most highly observable channel

and the most controllable channel.

226

And it's the easiest to work with

compare that to like, um, our organic

227

searches down, you know, which is,

uh, a lot more of a, of a lagging.

228

Um, lagging metric versus the, the inputs

that you put into it to achieve it.

229

It can reflect many things.

230

It can reflect brand strength.

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It can reflect your

activity on social media.

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It can reflect, uh, PR.

233

It can reflect, you just had a big showing

at a conference, you hosted an event.

234

It's a convenience for people that

can't be bothered to type your

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URL into the, into the browser.

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So that's a, that's a, that's

a harder one, but you have

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to kind of have a heuristic.

238

And for most of our channels, we

have sort of a decision tree of

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like, if this is off, go here, then

go here, then go here, then go here.

240

Um, not all of them can you correct

as much in real time, but at least we

241

can try to get to the bottom of it.

242

Camela Thompson: Yeah, and your point

about organic and search, it could be an

243

algorithm change on Google's part, like

they de indexed a ton of pages back in

244

February and we're still figuring out.

245

Why that is and how to get it corrected.

246

So there's a lot of things

out of marketing's control.

247

I think what we're maybe not explicitly

stating is that in order to get to

248

this place, you really have to nail

the basics and have your campaign data.

249

Organized in a very specific way.

250

Um, so I would love to talk to you and

get into the MQL versus hand raise.

251

I think I know why you're doing that.

252

Um, but let's get into it a little bit.

253

Justin Norris: Yeah, we have a legacy MQL.

254

Definition that, um, frankly is different

than, um, than anything I've seen before.

255

Like the, the conventional like marketing

automation, uh, definition of an MQL.

256

It's kind of like a combination of

you're the right person and it's the

257

right time based on like a lead score.

258

Sometimes a hand raise

would be like an auto MQL.

259

And for us, the way that, that we've

used it, It's just, uh, we kind of

260

assess you when you come into the system.

261

We use Sixth Sense today, so we run

some, you know, Sixth Sense magic

262

in the background and we say, okay,

great, you're at MQL, or you're not.

263

So I guess it's almost entirely

firmographic and demographic in that way.

264

Um, and I don't, I don't love it.

265

I don't love the way that we do it today,

but it's baked into so many things,

266

and I guess this is one of the things

that, that I've really learned from it.

267

As an aside, going from consulting

to, um, to being in house when

268

you're in consulting, it's very

easy to be up on your high horse

269

and be like, this is the right way.

270

And these are the best

practices and et cetera.

271

Then you're actually responsible for the

change management and the rollout and

272

the, like, what does it actually mean

in terms of work to change these things?

273

You're like, you know what?

274

That's fine.

275

I'm okay with, you know, With that,

like that, you know, that patch on

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the roof, it's not leaking right now.

277

I'm just going to leave that there for

now and I'm going to focus on something.

278

And you just have to make

decisions in that way.

279

Um, so in any event, that,

that is, that is what it means.

280

And I'm not saying it's, it's meaningless,

but for us, one of the main things Um,

281

when I started that, that we adopted was,

uh, really focusing in on hand raisers,

282

splitting them out and understanding

that the level of intent there is, is

283

really significantly different than like

somebody that downloads an ebook or, you

284

know, by several orders of magnitude.

285

And, um, and that that is the best

predictor of our, of our pipeline health.

286

So that's why we focus on that.

287

Camela Thompson: It's so interesting

because I've been an advocate of,

288

um, not relying on lead scoring.

289

For to determine what sales is following

up on for a long time, and it's kind of

290

sacrilege in the marketing operations

community, because we have this concept of

291

level of engagement and firmographic fit.

292

But my argument's always been what

we have in our marketing automation

293

platform should capture the universe

of marketing touches so far as

294

it's reasonable, you know, like

you get into website interactions.

295

To prolific, but once we start moving

that data over to the CRM side of the

296

house, assuming you have two different

tools or what we raise up to the sales

297

team, if you don't have two different

tools, it needs to change into the total

298

universe and getting credit for each touch

to what are we communicating to sales?

299

What do they need to know about the most?

300

And what's the most effective path for

them to convert an opportunity and to

301

me that has always been working closely

with the sales team and being able to

302

look at campaign hand raises by channel

and looking at conversion rates to

303

determine, is this really a hand raise

or should we be routing it to nurture?

304

Is there.

305

A different path you would take there,

or are you seeing that this is kind

306

of working for your organization?

307

Just curious, because I agree there

needs to be a fit component, but.

308

Justin Norris: Yeah, so I mean a bit

of, um, even more additional context

309

there in terms of like our structure

today, it's very BDR focused, so

310

we have a strong BDR org, and um,

I spend a lot of my time there.

311

I joke like for the first two years

here, I felt like I really spent

312

way more time with the BDRs than

I did with the marketing team.

313

Um, and just because

there's a lot of BDRs.

314

Stuff to put in place, a lot of

different things to, uh, to improve upon.

315

So they're responsible for

that, that qualification

316

layer before it gets to sales.

317

The sales team are really getting

opportunities that are, and there's,

318

there's pros and cons to that.

319

Um, one of the pros is you're really

preserving your sales team's time.

320

Um, one of the cons is that I

think it makes the sales team very

321

focused on, uh, on closing and

on like, uh, less, less hungry.

322

You can say to be doing some of

that cold outreach to be doing

323

some of that nurturing, maybe a bit

more, a bit more transactional, not

324

referring to anyone in particular at

artwork, just as a general thought.

325

Um, so the BDRs are responsible for

doing that, that qualification layer,

326

and we didn't have a lot of nurturing,

like we have newsletters, um, and

327

we're still sort of figuring that out.

328

Like we think we should be doing

more, um, nurturing, but like the.

329

The typical playbook of like, we'll

have a Tofu and a Bofu and a Mofu and

330

then we'll split it up by funnel and

we'll just be dripping people e books.

331

Um, I don't think it works, uh, anymore.

332

I don't think it's that engaging.

333

Uh, I get, I have companies

that have like, they've

334

probably sent me 50 e books now.

335

I haven't, I haven't read them.

336

Um, so we're, we're still figuring

that out and, and, and kind of evolving

337

that and refocusing our, our BDR time.

338

So increasingly trying to focus

them and prioritize their time.

339

And figure out where so that my latest

thinking on is honestly something

340

just think about right now in terms

of nurture is like not having to have

341

it be either or like a BDR can reach

out and we have that criteria and then

342

we'll do some marketing things and

we don't need to like coordinate it

343

so tightly and keep those swim lanes

so separate because they can they're

344

different and they can overlap and with

the email marketing our team is really

345

leaning into Kind of thought leadership.

346

And the way I think about it is it's

sort of like the sub stackification

347

of, of nurture where people will

even pay, like, think about people

348

pay to receive those emails because

they're from a trusted voice.

349

They really believe in that person's

expertise and what they have to say.

350

We're really fortunate to have an

evangelist like that on our team

351

who has a, an excellent reputation

within the community that we sell to.

352

So let's lead into that.

353

And, um, that's kind of the

path that we're going on now.

354

Camela Thompson: It's

so interesting because.

355

Um, as a content marketer, I might be

a little biased, but that's something

356

I've seen work over and over again.

357

And one of the things that makes

smaller company founders hesitant to

358

do that is What if they leave, and

then it's just fascinating to me but

359

we're getting a little bit off topic

my fault I tend to squirrel a lot.

360

Um, so, just want to be really clear

here that I think I'm going to speak

361

for myself and then I'll let you

chime in but I want to emphasize that.

362

The measurements that marketing teams

are looking at today aren't wrong.

363

And there are a lot of measurements

that the individual practitioners

364

need to know, like impressions, cost

per lead, all of that good stuff.

365

I think what I would really emphasize

here is that At the executive

366

level, you need to understand

what the business cares about.

367

And even though you know all

of those other things are super

368

critical, it's ultimately about are

we profitable and are we growing?

369

Is there anything you would add to

that to kind of clarify the different

370

audience, different functionality?

371

Justin Norris: No, I mean, yeah, like

it's, uh, It's it's a different story

372

for different levels, just like you said.

373

So the C suite, we've talked about it.

374

Um, for marketing leadership, you

know, when we meet, um, with myself

375

and our boss and the other marketing

directors, we go maybe one level deeper

376

and we're looking at some of the, uh,

more channel specific leading metrics.

377

Certainly, if we're troubleshooting

something, we're going way deeper.

378

Uh, if we're, we have alignment meetings

with ops and our BDR coaches and, um,

379

our demand gen leads in each market.

380

And there we look at a different set

of meetings, you know, around our

381

different set of KPIs, rather around

meetings and SLAs and that sort of thing.

382

Um, so in large part, it depends on

like what, Is relevant to you, um, to

383

help you, you know, run your part of the

business and for sales, it's more like,

384

you know, yeah, if I'm a CRO, I just

want to know, like, is the pipe coming?

385

Is the train on time there?

386

Am I going to be fine?

387

Uh, that's one level.

388

Uh, if you're meeting with your

BDR coaches, they're really

389

concerned about, like, am I going

to be getting enough lead flow?

390

Is that lead quality good?

391

And the demand gen is like, are you, you

know, Reaching out to them quickly enough.

392

Um, are you, you know, these

leads that I'm investing in?

393

Are you responding to them?

394

Are they sitting in kind

of spoiling on the vine?

395

Um, so it's very contextual in that way.

396

And then all the way down to

like, you know, like we alluded

397

to with those, those metrics about

impression share and stuff like that.

398

Um, and with operations people, they

tend to like to get really granular

399

and we really have a culture of

like challenging each other and

400

where ops is expected is one of the

things I really like is we're not.

401

Yeah.

402

In this more service oriented posture,

but really expected to come in and

403

be like, Hey, like we're down on SEM.

404

Like, why is that?

405

And like, go with them on that journey,

not from a, like, you know, naughty boys

406

and girls kind of, um, vibe, but more to

help them understand to be knowledgeable.

407

So that's, that's really great.

408

And I think as an individual protection

practitioner, With a channel, who

409

owns a channel, you're going to

want to go as deep as you need to.

410

But yeah, the heuristic for me is

like, what do you need to know to

411

drive your part of the business?

412

What's relevant?

413

Too much, uh, kind of data, data puking.

414

I forget the fellow Avinash Kaushik,

uh, analytics dude has been around

415

for a while as a somewhat gruesome

phrase, but it kind of works, right?

416

Like too much.

417

And it's like, I can't absorb that.

418

I'm an English major.

419

I like to joke.

420

I.

421

I actually don't readily

absorb numbers and, and stats,

422

like it takes effort for me.

423

So I, this is maybe also why I'm more

focused on story and like, what is the

424

story that these things are telling?

425

Camela Thompson: That's actually such a

good thing, I think, for an analyst to

426

kind of know about themselves because I'm.

427

Very data literate and pattern

matching is just second nature.

428

So I would put up these big charts

and expect everybody to see what I

429

saw at the beginning of my career.

430

And it was embarrassing.

431

I mean, I look back on it and I'm

like, Oh, it's all about the story.

432

I'm sorry.

433

Whoops.

434

Justin Norris: But yeah, I think, I

think for anyone that, that is, that

435

is, I mean, there are those people who

can look at a huge chart and just grow,

436

click, Oh, wait, that's, that's odd.

437

Like just zero, you know, and that is

a wonderful skill, one I wish I had.

438

Um, but ultimately for any audience,

it's really like, it's a narrative.

439

So back to marketing, right?

440

Um, yeah.

441

Whether focused internally or externally.

442

Camela Thompson: So I really, I think

it's so cool that you are getting

443

such exposure with the executive

team in these data reviews and seeing

444

firsthand what they care about for the

marketing operations people listening

445

that don't have that kind of access.

446

What would you really want them to take

away and start putting into practice?

447

Justin Norris: That's a great question.

448

I think historically, at least as I have

come up through it, my experience has

449

been that the marketing ops discipline has

been very, uh, tech and process oriented.

450

So it's often like people that like,

Ooh, I can run Marketo or I can run

451

part out or HubSpot or whatever.

452

And, um, so very business systems y.

453

Is the, is the flavor.

454

And often that can also mean like

less business acumen, potentially

455

even less interest in that sort of

like, like that's marketing's problem.

456

We're just going to figure out

how to do what they ask us to do.

457

And I understand being in that place.

458

And, um, and if that's what

you're interested in, that's fine.

459

Like be conscious of that

and choose that path.

460

But if you're more of a marketing

ops leader or someone who aspires

461

to be one, I think you have to be

plugged into the business side.

462

You have to know your metrics.

463

You should, if someone, you know.

464

Pop quizzed you like, how

are we doing right now?

465

You should be able to answer

those questions and take

466

that sort of accountability.

467

Um, I think you should view yourself and

aspire to be kind of the second in command

468

to your marketing leader, a thought

partner, um, someone who's there like

469

kind of backing them up, um, sort of the

chief of staff to the CMO role that we've

470

started to see more and more, which I

think is super interesting and to act that

471

way, even though that's not your title.

472

And, um, and then I think you'll.

473

Get involved in more of those discussions.

474

You will proactively add value.

475

You'll be perceived as, um, mature

and, and business oriented and

476

someone who's there for the business,

not just to like run systems.

477

And that is a, I think a huge

boost to your career and just

478

a change in your mindset too.

479

Cause even when it comes to your

tech projects and your, you know,

480

the things that you choose to

prioritize are going to be different.

481

If you have that awareness.

482

Camela Thompson: That

was perfectly stated.

483

That's amazing.

484

Um, and I think I'm so excited because

I'm watching major market trends.

485

I think marketing is becoming more

and more critical to the business

486

and the health and scale of the

business just because of how buyer

487

behavior has morphed over the years.

488

I think customer success

is also on the uptick.

489

We've seen that with the whole land

and expand mantra that all of us

490

have had beaten into our heads.

491

So we can't afford anymore to operate in a

silo and ignore what the other departments

492

need for everyone to work well together.

493

And just, that's perfect.

494

Justin Norris: It comes back to

marketing also being perceived as a,

495

as a kind of a mature and legitimate.

496

Business function as well.

497

Like there's a macrocosm of of that

where marketing needs to be really

498

aligned with sales to care about

it to work in lockstep with them.

499

Um, so those conversations

are super important too.

500

Camela Thompson: Yeah.

501

Yeah.

502

I don't think we can afford

to ignore data anymore.

503

And I don't think we can

define what a qualified lead

504

is in a silo anymore either.

505

Justin Norris: So we hit our lead target.

506

We're good.

507

Like,

508

Camela Thompson: We haven't

hit our pipeline number.

509

Doesn't matter.

510

Justin, thank you so much.

511

Is there anything else you'd

like to add before we talk

512

about where people can find you?

513

Justin Norris: We talked about

story and that's really important.

514

The other thing that I think is

we're thinking about our routines

515

and rituals, because I think when

you review the data is just as

516

important as what you're reviewing.

517

Having those regular meetings,

Those regular standing

518

cadences is really important.

519

It may seem like, oh, we can all

look at these reports asynchronously,

520

but you, you don't always do that.

521

So having that forcing function

where you know that you're gonna

522

have to stand up in front of your

peers or in front of executives

523

and sort of account for yourself.

524

Uh, it, it focuses your mind in a, in

a positive way in the sense that you're

525

going to apply scrutiny in areas where

you need, you're going to make sure, you

526

know, uh, you're going to check in, you

know, having this ritual kind of in my,

527

in my plate for a few months, uh, I'm much

closer with our DG team right now, like,

528

Hey, why are we, I noticed we're down in

this channel, in this market, like why,

529

Hey, Let me understand why, um, so I could

speak to that and, uh, and that's great.

530

You know, that's, that's really helpful

for me or like the routines I mentioned

531

with our BDR leaders or, you know, just

having, Having those rituals, uh, even,

532

even for yourself, like a block time in my

calendar each day to go and look through

533

a set of key reports to make sure I'm

there and focusing your mind on the KPIs

534

that matter for the business, I think is

the most important thing you can do to

535

drive more impact as a, as a professional,

because then everything else, um, that

536

you choose to do, that you prioritize

is going to be seen through that lens.

537

As opposed to like shiny object.

538

Ooh, this is interesting.

539

I'll buy this new tool, you

know, that's that sort of thing.

540

So yeah, if you implement one

ritual, I think that is, uh, is

541

something that's really important.

542

Camela Thompson: That's so spot on

because I always say, if you look at

543

your numbers quarterly, it's too late.

544

It is not a good story to the board

to get the pipeline and bookings

545

data at the end of the quarter and

say, whoops, we missed everything.

546

If you can say we saw we were

behind on pipeline and we responded

547

by doing these five things.

548

And you turned it around at least to a

degree, that is such a better story to

549

tell your executive team, they trust

that you understand the business more.

550

There's just, it's wise, it's very wise.

551

And then the other piece, I, agree

that it has to be a ritual that's

552

done in public, you know, by meeting

because recent research and I'll link

553

the research study in the show notes,

26 percent of marketers admit that

554

they ignore the write ups and insights

that their analyst team sends out.

555

And another 22 percent admitted to

ignoring their recommendations and going

556

by gut because that's what they prefer.

557

So I think we're still in a very heavy

558

Intuitive marketing state still,

or random acts of marketing, and

559

I don't think that's going to

be tolerated for much longer.

560

Justin Norris: I agree with you.

561

And actually, if we have time

for one other fun thing, and

562

tell me if we don't, but No,

563

Camela Thompson: absolutely.

564

Justin Norris: AI.

565

Uh, this is an interesting area, and

I know I almost feel cringy saying AI,

566

because it's like, AI, everything's

AI right now, but Um, I have thought

567

a lot about like, where can this

actually help and where can't it?

568

And I did earlier in the year, sort

of a big review of like, what are all

569

the possible use cases and where, and

like you said, pattern matching is

570

where I think AI can really, really

help because that's what it excels at.

571

It doesn't excel at truly understanding

human emotion or human psychology, even

572

though it can sort of approximate it at

times, but observing patterns and things.

573

It's perfect.

574

And so I only did a cursory review

at that time of tools that are

575

helping add sort of that analysis

layer that initial analysis later.

576

Like, hey, you may want to look at this.

577

This is up or this is down or or

doing some of that analytical work

578

for the human being a copilot.

579

I see that as a really valid and

promising, uh, use case for AI.

580

I don't even know what's

happened in the last six months.

581

I haven't checked again, but I think

that's an exciting possibility.

582

Camela Thompson: I am excited about that.

583

And I am also really excited about the

impacts and implications for qualitative.

584

Data that is unstructured

and normally we can analyze.

585

So for like, um, sales call recordings

and analyzing competitive keywords.

586

Oh my gosh, it's going

to be a game changer.

587

Justin Norris: That is the area that I've

been focused on the most because I think,

588

um, like, like you, I am, you know, really

obsessed with, with customer insights.

589

And I think the qualitative.

590

It's just as important

or if not, not more.

591

So my, uh, one of my bosses, our, our

COO, he's like, you know, the, the

592

quantitative tells you what happened,

but the qualitative tells you why.

593

And he probably listens to more calls

than anybody else in the organization.

594

And, um, and so being able to like mine

that data, like have it as a corpus of, of

595

information that AI can look through and

be like, what are the, what are the most

596

common pain points that are discussed?

597

You know, Gong doesn't

really let you do this yet.

598

Search across accounts, across

all calls of a certain type.

599

I'm sure they're going to get there.

600

But even, you know, I saw the other

day a BDR, just of her own initiative,

601

because it takes time, they have a

discovery call, then they have these

602

10 questions they need to answer.

603

She developed a prompt, and would just

feed the transcript into ChatGPT, and it

604

would spit the answers back out at her.

605

Camela Thompson: I love it!

606

Justin Norris: Wow, like, we've got to

roll this out, you know, to everybody

607

somehow, because Uh, and just seeing

it work, I was like, well, this is,

608

this is the way it's going to happen.

609

Camela Thompson: All about time savings

and you have to use human oversight still.

610

I mean, and I, I think we will for

a very long time, but if you're not

611

using it now to figure out productivity

gains, you're going to be so behind

612

everybody else in the Met market.

613

And I just love that

context truly is everything.

614

And I think marketing operators can learn

more from marketing by lifting their heads

615

up every once in a while and reading the

room and talking to the executive team.

616

And I think marketers can learn

from operators by taking some time

617

to look at the numbers and seeing

how that ties into the context.

618

I think there's A lot we

can gain from one another.

619

Justin Norris: A hundred percent.

620

Camela Thompson: Justin, thank

you so much for being on the show.

621

It's always a pleasure to geek

out with you over this stuff.

622

Justin Norris: Always enjoy it.

623

Camela Thompson: Thank you.

624

Where can people find

you online to network?

625

Yeah,

626

Justin Norris: yeah.

627

So, uh, you can find me on

LinkedIn, uh, just search my name.

628

I'll pop up.

629

And if you're interested, uh, in

the show, it's called RevOps FM.

630

Two words you can find it.

631

On, uh, wherever you get your podcasts,

Spotify, Apple podcasts, or go to revops.

632

fm forward slash subscribe.

633

And that'll take you to my sub stack and

then post all the episodes there as well.

634

Camela Thompson: Listeners.

635

Thank you so much for tuning in

to the revenue marketing report.

636

Please tell two friends, subscribe,

download, whatever you can helps.

637

And for those of you looking

for more great content like

638

this, check out calibermine.

639

com