This is a hot topic in Christian circles, in culture, and in the news, but what does God actually say about what it means to be a man or a woman? Do we have to fit into a mold of Christian culture or is there flexibility for different personalities? What does it even mean to be made "in the image of God" and to be made "male and female". Bryan and Krista of So That We, a biblical counseling practice, bring clarity to this truly important topic. Christian parents will receive practical wisdom for themselves, their marriages, their parenting, and for their witness to the watching world.

Scriptures Referenced:

 2 Corinthians 1:3-5

Genesis 1:27

Genesis 2:18, 24

Ephesians 5

Titus 2

Proverbs 31

Matthew 22:36-40

Galatians 5:19

Books Recommended by Bryan (Full disclosure: Entrusted staff has not read these resources yet, but we want to offer the links since Bryan mentioned them. :) ):

The Journey to Biblical Masculinity

Dialed In

The Measure of a Man

They're the joyful agains our children.

2

Shout on the swings, the exhausting

agains of cooking and laundry and

3

the difficult agains of discipline.

4

So much of what we do

as mothers is on repeat.

5

So what if we woke up with clarity,

knowing which agains we were called to.

6

And went to bed believing we are

faithful in what matters most.

7

We believe God's word is

the key to untangle from the

8

confusion and overwhelm we feel.

9

Let's look up together to embrace a

motherhood full of freedom and joy.

10

Hey there, mama.

11

Welcome to the Again podcast.

12

I'm your host, Stephanie Hickox, and this

is brought to you by Entrusted Ministries.

13

Today I pray that you're

encouraged and equipped by this

14

conversation I had with my friend

Krista Rin and her husband Brian.

15

They are the incredible biblical

counselors at, so that we counseling.

16

The first time I met Krista, she was

leading an anxiety workshop at my

17

church, equipping parents to think about

anxiety biblically and how to help guide

18

their children through this struggle

in a pragmatic, Christ-centered way.

19

I was blown away by the way

that she applied the word

20

in such a tangible manner.

21

She and I have been able to develop

a friendship over the years, and I

22

could not be more grateful for her

influence and guidance in my life.

23

She's one of the most capable, wise

women I know, and because I know her

24

husband is deeply gifted at guiding

men to follow the Lord holistically

25

and wholeheartedly, I gave them some of

my hardest questions and the questions

26

that I know many believers are asking.

27

They were truly gracious to sit

down with me for hours, and we'll

28

be releasing parts of that interview

in three different sections.

29

First, I asked them, what does

biblical womanhood and biblical

30

manhood really look like?

31

Next, we got into the issue

of spiritual leadership.

32

There are many moms I know

that are longing to honor God's

33

design, but wondering how they

can encourage their husbands to

34

step into that leadership role.

35

And then I ask them some really difficult

questions about prodigal children,

36

It is important that we have a

biblical perspective and that we

37

know how to support those around us

that are experiencing this deep pain.

38

Little did I know that these topics would

be so relevant for today, particularly the

39

biblical womanhood and biblical manhood.

40

Certainly, they've been on the forefront

in recent years, but especially with

41

the last couple of weeks, they're

even more prevalent in the news.

42

We want to be rooted and grounded in the

word of God for how we can think about

43

his creation of us as male and female.

44

And often I find in the church

there's a lack of clarity.

45

Christa and Brian are going to invite

us into what does God's word say?

46

How does our masculinity and

femininity work when we have so

47

many different personalities and

the Lord has made us so uniquely?

48

Is there room for

flexibility in his design?

49

As we go into this topic, you will

frequently hear us talk about two ditches.

50

You see when you're driving down the

road, you want to stay on the path.

51

You don't want to veer into the ditch.

52

Obviously, often we take part of the

truth and we veer off the straight path

53

that the Lord has for us getting stuck

on a single doctrine or truth we don't

54

want to have these hangups or assumptions

steer us off the straight path.

55

We want to be able to hold multiple

truths of God's word and keep pressing

56

on the path the Lord has for us.

57

Krista and Brian do a fabulous

job providing clarity on this.

58

You'll hear part one of that topic

this week and part two next week.

59

I'm praying for each of you listening that

this would bless your understanding of

60

who God made you to be, your understanding

of how you can relate to your spouse,

61

and also how you can raise your children

to embrace God's design and certainly

62

how to engage with a culture that's

clearly wrestling with these questions.

63

May we be compassionately committed

to the truths of God's word.

64

Stephanie: Well, I feel so blessed

to be here with this dynamic duo I am

65

here with, Krista and Brian Reek of

so that we counseling and I have so

66

much respect for each of you, for the

way that you live your lives and the

67

way that you've pressed into the Lord

and allowed him to grow you through

68

personal trials really for the benefit

of others and the glory of the Lord.

69

And I, love your verse that you

founded the practice on Krista.

70

So I'm just gonna read that for everyone.

71

Blessed be the God and Father of our

Lord Jesus Christ, the father of mercies

72

and God of all comfort, who comforts

us in all our affliction so that we

73

may be able to comfort those who are

in any affliction with the comfort with

74

which we ourselves are comforted by God.

75

The second I heard the name of your

counseling practice, I'm like, I'm in.

76

I love this because you have experienced

a lot of the comfort of the Lord

77

through trials and he has given you

so much wisdom, and I've been so

78

blessed to get to know you as a friend

and also having you as a counselor,

79

just for our listeners, I don't know

that I've ever met a, a counselor

80

that was so rooted in biblical truth,

but made it incredibly practical,

81

but also spoken compassionately.

82

Krista just is so rare in that,

and as I've gotten to know you,

83

Krista, I've heard you speak so

highly of Ryan and the wisdom and

84

the strength that he is for you.

85

And I have been personally convicted.

86

It might be just a sentence you say or

something about Brian's convictions,

87

about biblical manhood or about

how moms need to let husbands lead.

88

And that's challenged my walk.

89

So I'm excited to actually get to sit down

and hear with you, Brian, firsthand this

90

passion that the Lord has on your heart.

91

And I really think in the church

today we often do set these categories

92

of this is what manhood looks like.

93

This is what womanhood looks like.

94

And it's not what the word says.

95

And I often find that churches are

trying to address this, but they're

96

still doing it in a very fuzzy way.

97

Mm-hmm.

98

And saying, well, we know it's

not just, you don't have to knit

99

at the women's ministry, but they

don't clarify what is it really.

100

Yeah.

101

And especially not all

men are made the same way.

102

So I'm really excited to talk about

biblical womanhood, a biblical manhood.

103

And what does that look like

in the church, in marriage?

104

But first, let's talk about we

are made in the image of God

105

and we are made to reflect him.

106

What does that look like first before

we dive into those other issues?

107

Krista/Bryan: great question.

108

I think it, it is important to tackle

that before being able to have a

109

discussion on

110

masculinity and femininity.

111

I wanna maybe start out

by saying for us as we

112

answer these questions, we're

113

not claiming that we have all the answers

and that we're holding the the to say.

114

This would be based on our own Bible

115

study, but

116

also the people that we're working with

in our practice, the things that we're

117

observing that work and don't work in

marriages that work and don't work with.

118

What you pointed out, Stephanie,

about applying masculinity and

119

femininity to our personality and

the unique ways that God made us.

120

And from marriage counseling of course,

and seeing kind of the issues that people

121

Stephanie: face.

122

Krista/Bryan: I'll let Brian start Talking

about the image of God a little bit.

123

Sure.

124

Throw me under the bus in a room

with two women to a podcast,

125

two women

126

being

127

the only man's voice.

128

Stephanie: So

129

Krista/Bryan: first I'll

apologize because when we do men's

130

counseling, we talk differently.

131

Yeah.

132

We sometimes don't knit thoughts.

133

Well together, we just

rapid fire bullet points.

134

I'll just apologize and if I

say things gruffly on purpose

135

or accident give me grace.

136

Stephanie: Yes.

137

Krista/Bryan: Sure.

138

All right.

139

Yeah.

140

We are made in the image of God

when we're made in the image of God.

141

The point is we're to

reflect his attributes.

142

And so he made male and

female going back to Genesis.

143

So it would stand to reason, or we can

infer that we will reflect differently.

144

If we didn't, or that wasn't the

intention, he would've just made one

145

thing rather than male and female.

146

So I'll often start with that, knowing

there's a difference in the way we're

147

going to reflect those attributes.

148

Yeah, absolutely.

149

And I think that ties into why

there's so many different opinions

150

about what biblical masculinity

and femininity looks like, right?

151

Because we have different skills

and abilities, we have different

152

personalities, all have different

153

brokenness, we have different trauma.

154

We have different levels

155

Stephanie: of

156

Krista/Bryan: pride,

maybe that we bring into

157

the discussion

158

that affect how we bear God's image.

159

Yeah.

160

Okay.

161

Well, I wanna maybe start

162

with the question of womanhood

and femininity, if that's okay.

163

And just unpack that one

164

Stephanie: piece.

165

right?

166

Sure.

167

Yes.

168

Krista/Bryan: If we're looking strictly

at scripture, we see that there are

169

a lot

170

of passages that give

171

us ideas about how a woman might uniquely

or particularly be called to bear God's

172

image.

173

Genesis,

174

the that referenced, right?

175

We often

176

hear conversations about the word help

meet or helper as related to the female.

177

I'll make a helper suitable for him, and

178

I hear theologians discuss

to what degree that

179

specifically means eve.

180

So

181

God made the woman helper, but what

182

degree to which this also

might just mean mankind.

183

God means that people

184

need other people.

185

We actually all need a

186

helper.

187

So

188

when we engage in questions of what

femininity looks like for a single

189

woman when we're using Genesis only

to teach about marriage, that can be

190

limiting for the women that are in

191

that

192

category.

193

Stephanie: Another passage that we

194

Krista/Bryan: often focus

195

on is Ephesians

196

five.

197

The

198

Stephanie: wives Submit

199

to your husband's passage,

200

which

201

Krista/Bryan: will parse out more later.

202

Stephanie: Those like Titus two, that

203

Krista/Bryan: gives us a picture of

older women mentoring the younger

204

women of women being busy in the home.

205

Stephanie: So

206

Krista/Bryan: think these may be where

we've gotten some of our stereotypes

207

of what the ideal biblical woman looks

like A woman's place is in the home.

208

But is it only

209

in the home?

210

When we look

211

Stephanie: at womanhood and

212

Krista/Bryan: the totality

213

of scripture, we see a

214

lot of biblical examples that

215

are actually beyond

216

Stephanie: that.

217

So the

218

godly woman

219

of Proverbs

220

31, she's clearly

221

Krista/Bryan: in the

222

home,

223

Stephanie: but she's also

224

Krista/Bryan: running a business.

225

Lydia

226

or Priscilla of Priscilla and Aquila.

227

They're working,

228

they're earning income.

229

We have pictures of really

gentle women like Ruth

230

Wise,

231

Stephanie: women like Esther and Abigail.

232

And

233

Krista/Bryan: we say,

234

Stephanie: see

235

Krista/Bryan: really strong

236

and courageous women

237

Stephanie: like

238

Krista/Bryan: who sneaks the

Israelite spies into the city,

239

Stephanie: Deborah, the judge, or

jl the woman who, drives a tent peg

240

Krista/Bryan: Cicero's skull.

241

So

242

Stephanie: back to our earlier

243

Krista/Bryan: point, there are directions

on behaviors that a godly woman should

244

seek to emulate as an image bearer.

245

Stephanie: But rather than that

246

Krista/Bryan: one stereotype, they

247

seem to be able to exist within all

248

Stephanie: these

249

different personalities, different things

250

that

251

Krista/Bryan: has put

252

in women's paths to do.

253

Think of Esther

254

Stephanie: for such

255

a time

256

Krista/Bryan: this, there

are things related to maybe a

257

woman's unique personal calling.

258

Stephanie: In counseling

259

Krista/Bryan: talk a lot about

260

the the brain,

261

right?

262

And kind of the interest in neuroscience

263

intersection that we,

we have in today's And

264

broadly speaking,

265

women's brains are

266

wired

267

more than men for connection,

for experiencing and expressing

268

emotion, for being emotionally

and relationally intuitive.

269

don't mean every woman

270

is specifically this way, but

more so in contrast to men

271

who tend to be better at big

272

picture thinking, compartmentalizing

their thoughts, thinking literally

273

Stephanie: the

274

Krista/Bryan: way that

a woman's brain is wired

275

can make her

276

better at

277

nurturing family relationships

and caring for people.

278

But

279

that

280

doesn't mean that being

281

Stephanie: a

282

Krista/Bryan: wife and mom

283

Stephanie: is the only

284

Krista/Bryan: domain where

caring for others can be used.

285

So

286

I think to value what a

woman is to value those

287

unique strengths.

288

And scripture gives us

great examples to that end.

289

So

290

the

291

stereotypes Are really totally without

292

credence, right?

293

They

294

do fit

295

some women

296

the

297

stereotype of kind of the woman in

the home and she's meek and mild

298

Stephanie: and

299

Krista/Bryan: That fits women.

300

Stephanie: But I think we have

301

to

302

Krista/Bryan: beyond that

in order to understand that

303

God might use

304

women's unique gifts in

all different places.

305

God uses single women.

306

God

307

uses women with ministry

or workplace calling.

308

He uses women on the mission field, right?

309

So

310

a woman has a

311

hugely important, hugely valuable role.

312

She has strength.

313

She has courage.

314

She has influence.

315

Stephanie: We know

316

Krista/Bryan: God values

relationships highly.

317

The first commandment that

318

Jesus

319

talked about

320

is

321

Stephanie: to

322

Krista/Bryan: love the

323

Lord your God, right?

324

the

325

second is

326

love

327

your

328

neighbor.

329

So natural

330

bent of

331

women toward relationship

is clearly something God

332

designed to reflect his image.

333

But

334

I

335

think

336

Stephanie: the

337

danger

338

Krista/Bryan: of that is that

339

a woman

340

can also use those gifts for harm.

341

She can be manipulative.

342

She can think

343

her

344

gifts are better,

345

they're

346

more important than the

gifts of the men around her.

347

She can start to desire control,

control over the man or how things

348

are done in the home or whatever.

349

So we think examples in that, like

350

Stephanie: Delilah or

Jezebel or the adulterous

351

Krista/Bryan: woman in Proverbs, she's

352

seeking to, lure in the men.

353

I think even those

354

extremes

355

can be deceiving,

356

right?

357

Because the godly woman will think, oh,

I'm never gonna be Jezebel or Delilah.

358

That's not me.

359

And because we're looking at that as

360

a comparison, we don't

361

realize sometimes we have pendulum swung

362

into the

363

stereotype

364

from the culture.

365

We don't wanna be this,

366

Sweet, meek and

367

mild, a little subservient woman in

368

the home.

369

So we might become like, I'm

370

Stephanie: woman, hear me

371

Krista/Bryan: roar.

372

I'm smarter than the man.

373

I don't need a man.

374

I can do it all.

375

Right?

376

So

377

we're still then veering into now a more

cultural stereotype of what womanhood is.

378

I see some well-meaning

379

like very

380

kind love

381

the

382

Lord.

383

Moms, they just want peace in their homes.

384

They want obedient children.

385

They

386

want husbands who lead spiritually.

387

Stephanie: But because

388

Krista/Bryan: of that.

389

don't realize those

390

things have come idols of their heart

and they're starting to actually slip

391

subtly into trying to gain control

392

of what God alone

393

has

394

control of, so

395

if I

396

was to break all down and

397

and just

398

make

399

a little bit

400

Stephanie: of a

401

Krista/Bryan: summary thought

402

of of what biblical woman who

403

looks like a woman is a nurturer.

404

She's insightful and she's influential.

405

What is she

406

Stephanie: not,

407

Krista/Bryan: she's not someone

408

who uses

409

those gifts for harm.

410

Proverbs 31 says, she does

411

Stephanie: her

412

Krista/Bryan: husband good

413

and

414

not evil all the

415

days of

416

her

417

Stephanie: life.

418

Krista/Bryan: She is

a helper, but a helper

419

Stephanie: in a

420

Krista/Bryan: strong iron iron sense, not

421

just

422

a subservient

423

one.

424

She

425

is

426

not

427

limited to

428

Stephanie: only

429

wearing

430

Krista/Bryan: pink

431

or wearing

432

dresses, though

433

she can

434

thrive

435

in those

436

things.

437

She can enjoy those things.

438

She's

439

Stephanie: not limited

440

Krista/Bryan: only to being in the

home, but she can thrive in the

441

home and with a role in the home.

442

But submission

443

doesn't mean she's limited just

444

to

445

being

446

passive.

447

Her role is only

448

passive.

449

She

450

has authority

451

to

452

rise up and fill her sphere

of influence for God's glory.

453

She

454

has authority in

455

how she

456

bears his image.

457

She

458

does have

459

a

460

limit to that authority.

461

And

462

that

463

limit, when we're talking

464

about submission is really

465

about.

466

Attitude

467

more than it is about position.

468

It's about

469

the

470

attitude.

471

Is

472

there pride in

473

her think,

474

oh, it's all about me, my image, I wanna

create my world, my home, my children, the

475

I

476

see it, the way

477

want them

478

to be?

479

Or am

480

I trying to

481

create those

482

things to be as God

483

Stephanie: sees

484

them

485

Krista/Bryan: as God

486

Stephanie: wants them

487

be?

488

And

489

Krista/Bryan: when

490

she does that, she can be the compliment

to man in a really lovely way.

491

That was a lot

492

of

493

Stephanie: Yes.

494

That

495

Krista/Bryan: I now

understand women completely.

496

That

497

was good.

498

I

499

Stephanie: it's so funny

because God gave me three sons.

500

And

501

Krista/Bryan: then

502

Stephanie: daughter.

503

At one years old, the difference was

so striking where my sons, if they

504

fell, they would say ow, that hurt.

505

And then I'd give them a

hug and they'd be fine.

506

Yeah.

507

And my daughter would be like,

mom, I hit my shin on the

508

second step and it hurt so bad.

509

And I did it because I was doing

the, and the whole story, and I

510

didn't even have to ask the question.

511

It was there.

512

And so that was amazing.

513

That was you.

514

So was I, that was, I love it.

515

That was so much content.

516

And I know, Brian, you're gonna follow

up with some strong wisdom, and I

517

know it's gonna be less words, but yet

518

Krista/Bryan: I don't know,

519

Stephanie: pack as much of a punch.

520

I

521

know.

522

It

523

is.

524

It might be as many whereas He

525

has

526

a

527

Krista/Bryan: to

528

say

529

about his topic too.

530

Well, I suppose it is a passion,

but it's because there's so much

531

kind of confusion, maybe even more

confusion about what masculinity is

532

and isn't compared to what femininity

I think that's true is and isn't,

533

right.

534

I guess to some extent there's

not really an ideal masculine man.

535

And I say that kind of there's

not an ideal Christian, right?

536

There are characteristics, there are

instructions, there are commands,

537

there are things that are common

strengths and weaknesses and things.

538

But what we've done culturally, because

there is confusion, is we've created

539

essentially caricatures stereotypes

have come out of things We notice

540

they're not without, as you said, not

without merit or credence as well.

541

But for most men that the idea isn't

that we feel this conflict between

542

man acting different than women.

543

We feel more of a conflict of how does

a man act relative to another man?

544

Which one is

545

masculine?

546

Which one isn't?

547

That's great.

548

Are they both masculine?

549

Which one's biblically masculine?

550

Which one's toxic, masculine, that sort

551

of

552

thing.

553

The approach I'll take with men and

at least in my journey of trying

554

to understand all this, is we're

unique in our personalities and our

555

gifting that, that God has given

us our purposes are different.

556

He's given us works to do

long before we were born.

557

What we are trying to do is how do we

do those things within masculinity,

558

I suppose.

559

One

560

of

561

the questions I get is, what am

I supposed to either look like

562

or act or do to be masculine?

563

My wife says I need to lean more.

564

I know she's thinking I'm not manly

enough and that sort of thing.

565

Those are some unspoken

things I suppose I hear.

566

When we talk about kind of characteristics

and responsibilities and even calling,

567

how do we walk that out if one person

is outdoorsy and, can fight and can

568

shoot, and all those sorts of things.

569

And how does another man walk those

out when his gifting is computer work?

570

He's not necessarily strong

and gonna win every battle.

571

Can both of those men be masculine?

572

I

573

think one of the main things that

men run into with that question is,

574

well, don't want to be like that.

575

Whatever the caricature is, whether

the caricature is this huge, the

576

term, we've heard the term alpha

male and it's come to mean something

577

like, huge strong, black belt and

jiujitsu, can take on an army himself.

578

Those sorts of things.

579

Most of us guys we know

we aren't gonna be that.

580

We can never get there or we don't want

581

to

582

per se.

583

So the risk that men run is,

well then I just don't care.

584

I'm just not gonna be a man if that's

what a man is, I'm gonna be me.

585

And culture says that's great.

586

Right.

587

Stephanie: Right.

588

So

589

Krista/Bryan: we throw

590

the baby out with the bath water.

591

At that point, we just give up

the idea of understanding what

592

masculinity is within that.

593

What is our actual God-given

purpose within the family, within

594

the church, within the community.

595

I suppose

596

if I were to boil it down,

you did a nice job of kind of

597

what it is and what it isn't.

598

What I try to do is

dismantle the caricature.

599

What within the caricature is biblical?

600

What is reasonable?

601

What fits within certain personalities?

602

What is okay?

603

Can I be those things and

still be a Christian man?

604

Can I be those things and still

be a masculine Christian man?

605

I think what I feel at this

point, what masculinity is not,

606

or what it doesn't look like it's

not a caricature, it's not an

607

idol.

608

It's not

609

the exact same thing from man to man.

610

It's not

611

toxic,

612

it's not comfortable, it's not

lazy, and it's definitely not safe.

613

And I think one of the

614

Stephanie: things we have to

615

Krista/Bryan: it's not abusive either

physically, emotionally, and spiritually.

616

And it, I guess if we were to bring a

Bible verse into it, and I can't quote it,

617

but Galatians five

618

19, it talks about the acts of the flesh.

619

So things that I can remember, it's a

discord malice debauchery, basically

620

all the bad stuff that we know

621

is

622

bad.

623

So those things

624

also would fall into what

a masculinity is not.

625

Yeah,

626

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

627

right.

628

Krista/Bryan: But as you said, sometimes

we can say from the pulpit or just in

629

books, we spend a lot of time on what

masculinity is not, but we don't really

630

maybe express what masculinity is.

631

We don't spend much time.

632

Part of that is because it can

vary quite a bit from man to man.

633

There are some general precepts, but how

that's walked out, boots on the ground,

634

that's where the differences come in, and

635

that's where

636

caricatures get in the

637

Stephanie: way.

638

Mm-hmm.

639

If

640

I

641

Krista/Bryan: can't

642

walk

643

it out like that caricature,

644

I must not be actually a masculine man.

645

So why bother?

646

What does masculinity look like?

647

I think the main thing is

masculinity is biblical.

648

Conceptually, I suppose there, there

are the attributes in the New Testament.

649

There's a couple of books, and I'll

mention those in a second, that

650

talk about 20 attributes of a man

which are good, but they're also

651

attributes that kind of, everybody

should be following man and woman.

652

So

653

while those are good, they're

not necessarily unique to men,

654

but it is worth mentioning gene

Gaetz's book, the Measure of a Man.

655

He writes about the 20

attributes of a man, and that

656

comes out of Paul's writings.

657

Talking about anger and balanced

life and those sorts of things.

658

So we parse those out and the

qualifications of an elder and

659

things like that, those are good.

660

But we also try to find the unique things.

661

There's another book related to that.

662

It's by Jim Ramos.

663

It's called Dialed In.

664

And essentially it's the same idea, but

it brings maybe a little more modern

665

perhaps outdoorsy feel to it that

some men find a little more relatable.

666

We can add those two sources as well.

667

I say conceptually because we as

men know, okay, we're not supposed

668

to lash out in anger, but if we

grew up in a supposedly Christian

669

home where anger was uncontrolled.

670

What does that look like?

671

I know I'm supposed to control my

anger, but I don't actually know

672

boots on the ground, what that means.

673

And it might be something a little bit

different, walked out a little differently

674

among different personalities as well.

675

So circling my thought process

which we do all the time in

676

the men's room, so to speak.

677

Masculinity looks like it's biblical.

678

It's being a man.

679

So on the surface that seems

like a silly definition.

680

Masculinity is being a man, but the

definition that I'm using now that

681

comes out of another book by Jake

Hamilton but I'll just quote it.

682

It's A Man is a biological male human

who confidently chooses to go first in

683

any circumstance and joyfully commits

to honoring God, respecting women, and

684

protecting his children at all costs.

685

Stephanie: Mm-hmm.

686

Krista/Bryan: It's

687

a working definition for us.

688

There's a lot of things within

that I bring out with different

689

categories and domains and pillars.

690

But we'll leave it at that for now.

691

Masculinity is being healthy physically.

692

I am

693

pretty passionate about

694

Stephanie: that.

695

Krista/Bryan: My first career

was a physical therapist.

696

So being healthy is part of it.

697

But we'll move forward from there.

698

It's pursuing spiritual maturation.

699

Okay.

700

Masculinity is being able to

identify, communicate, and take

701

responsibility for our emotions.

702

Masculinity is facing

703

your past head on

704

admitting that everything affects

us, dealing with the fallout and

705

then pursuing God's purpose for us.

706

Unashamedly

707

I

708

sum it up this way.

709

I, there's four pillars to

masculinity that I think are

710

more unique to masculinity.

711

So we have the general principles

of everybody should have integrity,

712

everybody should have honor.

713

Everybody shouldn't lie,

those sorts of things.

714

But I think some of the things

that are unique to men are what

715

I would say are the four pillars.

716

Protecting, providing,

performing, and preparing.

717

Any one of those

718

we can

719

parse out at any point in time.

720

But maybe that's all I

have to say about that.

721

That's good.

722

Stephanie: That was phenomenal I, I

feel like You're correcting so many

723

cultural misconceptions and lies,

but also I just, I hear the heart

724

of a man of how complicated this is.

725

Mm-hmm.

726

The expectations are so high in the

church and they're being so demeaned

727

in culture and how does a man arise up

to this high standard when it does feel

728

overwhelming or when there is confusion

or when you've never seen it lived out.

729

And of course your wife is so often

counting on you so desperately to do that.

730

I hear the pressure, but I just feel

so much clarity from how you described

731

that, and that's an amazing definition.

732

Krista/Bryan: Yeah.

733

That's really good.

734

I like how you presented ditches.

735

'cause that's where my head was as

well, with females with the ditch of

736

it's really passive and it's really

soft, or it's really aggressive and I

737

feel like you did that with males as

well to say we have this picture in

738

our mind of the alpha male and, I feel

like I'm not a man if I'm not that.

739

But then that opposite, what if he's

the more sensitive or more introverted

740

and well then does he feel like, well,

I can't be a man because maybe I don't

741

exemplify those characteristics that

feel more stereotypically masculine.

742

So it sounds like you're saying

the same thing, that there

743

are extremes we can fall into.

744

And the truth or living that

out biblically is somewhere

745

in maybe the messy middle.

746

Yeah, I think the weeds yes, are

essentially that we have ditches, but

747

that does not absolve us from having to

work towards what masculinity should be.

748

Yeah.

749

So if we are comfortable, if we

are lazy, if we're real passive,

750

we might be like, I'm a man.

751

My family's doing great, but are we

really living out our full masculinity,

752

our full works that he has for us to do?

753

Should we be stronger physically?

754

Should we be stronger emotionally?

755

My point mostly is that there's not an

ideal level of strength necessarily.

756

Right.

757

I'll never be as strong as somebody

much younger than me who plays

758

professional football, for example,

but I can be as strong as I can be.

759

And it's not just about physical strength.

760

So there's a lot of wes here, but

that, that can be a little example.

761

Stephanie: Yeah.

762

I really liked when you talked

about the computer programmer

763

versus the mud wrestler, or,

764

I, we went to a church once

where that those were the men's

765

retreats, it's like Survivor.

766

And my husband who built a computer based

ministry at 25 was like, that's not me.

767

That doesn't resonate with me.

768

What do you have for me?

769

And so then it's, then he

felt isolated from that.

770

And I think what drew me to him so much

and what I saw as masculine in him was

771

how he threw off fear of man when he knew

the Lord was calling him to something.

772

He was just resolute in it.

773

And I felt like that's absolutely

something I can follow because

774

I can struggle with caring

too much what people think.

775

And so that going first, I found

like such a protection in that,

776

how he was able to throw off those

things and cultural expectations.

777

But I do see how that's hard to

say, well what does this look like?

778

And then here, raising three boys with

him and they have different levels of

779

aggression or masculinity, how do you

guide them when one of them just wants to

780

tackle you, and another is no, really do

show me the how the computer works, dad.

781

Krista/Bryan: Yeah.

782

Yeah.

783

Yeah, It.

784

I guess maybe to, to comment a little

bit on that because that's a good point.

785

Yeah.

786

Yeah.

787

You have three children or six children,

and they're all very different.

788

So you have three boys and

one's real, any stick is

789

Stephanie: a weapon.

790

Krista/Bryan: Right?

791

And you have another where, can

you go outside for a few minutes,

792

Stephanie: please?

793

Yeah.

794

Krista/Bryan: Yeah.

795

Right.

796

Yeah.

797

But what

798

is, what within their personalities

do we need to develop as far

799

as what we think is biblical.

800

Any war has different levels

of function the spear tip.

801

So the Savage Warrior as

well as the logistics, right.

802

And they all have a role.

803

And to some extent I challenge every

guy to examine whether they're in

804

a ditch, whether they become very

complacent, because, well, I'm made

805

this way, or I'm already this way.

806

I'm not sure I can be a Christian

because I'm way over here on this ditch.

807

So that's a lot of what we challenge and

try to come up with within the individual.

808

Man.

809

Are we meeting some of

these protection things?

810

Protection meaning more than just

physical but includes physical.

811

The wisdom doesn't stop there.

812

Come back next week for part

two of this conversation

813

as you've been listening to the wisdom

of Brian and Krista, perhaps you're

814

thinking, wow, if only I could sit down

with them and process my family struggle.

815

And praise the Lord.

816

Due to technology, no matter

where you live, you can.

817

Krista and Brian are local

to the Chicago area, but they

818

certainly welcome virtual clients.

819

I'm going to link their counseling

practice in the show notes, and I

820

would highly encourage you to run to

that path of freedom for your family.

821

It's one of the wisest

investments you could make.

822

Stephanie: We know you're busy, mama.

823

So we are truly grateful you joined us for

this episode of again, if you're looking

824

for more information about building your

home on the foundation of Jesus Christ,

825

head to www dot Entrusted Ministries

dot com to learn more about our study

826

for moms Entrusted with a child's Heart.

827

This scripture saturated study

has blessed families around the

828

world, and we want it for you too.

829

Before you go, I want to pray this

benediction over you from Second

830

Thessalonians one 11 through 12.

831

We're rooting for you to this end.

832

We always pray for you that our God

may make you worthy of his calling

833

and fulfill every resolve for good.

834

And every work of faith by his power

so that the name of our Lord Jesus

835

may be glorified in you and you

and Him according to the grace of

836

our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

837

Amen.

838

Until we meet again.