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Why Embrace the Beginner Mindset?: Interview with J. Schuh
Episode 2510th January 2023 • Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking • Kirsten Rourke
00:00:00 00:22:19

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In this week's episode of Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking, Kirsten talks with J. Schuh about creativity, the connection between empathy and user experience, and the joke on the cover of his book.

 Key take-aways:

  • Even experts in their fields experience imposter syndrome and perfectionism
  • We often constrain ourselves because we don’t want others to misunderstand
  • Embracing the beginner mindset helps you to learn more effectively

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Read a transcript of this episode: https://share.descript.com/view/2QizzWU1g7A

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Transcripts

Kirsten:

Hello, everybody.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Presenting & Speaking, the podcast, and now the

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

video series, and also interviews.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

And, as always, because it's my damn show, I get to bring on my damn friends.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

So, I've got J.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

Schuh, who is just brilliant, and a hug on two legs, and unbelievably sweet and kind.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

And, I would like to explain your history, but I don't think I have enough for it.

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

So, do you think you could tell people about what it is you've

Welcome to Ongoing Mastery:

done in your short life so far?

J:

Sure.

J:

Gosh, it, it's, it's kinda hard when you talk about yourself.

J:

You're like, "Yeah, I've done a lot," you know, but I have done a lot.

J:

As, as a kid, I always had a lot of interest.

J:

I went to school for advertising, marketing, psychology, and then I

J:

got outta school and didn't know what I wanted to do with my life.

J:

And so I waited tables.

J:

And then,

Kirsten:

Okay

J:

I had a conversation, one of the best conversations I've ever had in

J:

my life was probably with my wife, because I told her, I said, "You know,

J:

I can, I can do all these things.

J:

I think I could be a voice actor.

J:

I could be an actor.

J:

I could be an artist.

J:

I just don't know what I want to do."

J:

And she said, "You know, I really don't care what you do.

J:

I just, pick one thing and just do that thing."

J:

And I said,

Kirsten:

Yep

J:

"You know, that's really good advice."

J:

So, what I did is I picked animation and back then in the dark ages, there

J:

were these things called phone books.

J:

And I, I went to those because internet was still in the

J:

dial-up modem noises> stage.

J:

And, and, I just went from A, looking for studios to get.

J:

And, long story short, I wound up finally, eventually getting an

J:

internship with an animation company.

J:

That's how I got my start.

J:

And ever since that, I've done animation, cartoons, design, illustration,

Kirsten:

Mmm-hmm

J:

Writing, directing, producing, programming.

J:

Now, I'm a user experience strategist, design strategist,

J:

and I teach design thinking at SMU and Collin College here in town.

J:

So, I've had this really broad

Kirsten:

Yup

J:

Creative history that, now, where I am in my life, one things I wanna do is

J:

kind of share that a little bit, at least share some of the things I've learned.

J:

You know, I've done video games that have been seen by millions of people

J:

and, and, you know, I have an imdb.com, no major feature films that anybody's

J:

seen, but, you know, I'm still on there.

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

And, so it's

Kirsten:

Oh yeah and a book.

J:

I know some stuff.

Kirsten:

And books, books

J:

Yeah, yeah.

J:

I have a, a book,

Kirsten:

J:

It, it's called Brilliance.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

And, you and I were talking about it a little earlier, and,

J:

and you know how sometimes creative people can try to be too creative?

J:

That's kind of what happened.

J:

If you are into fonts, everybody knows that there's one font

J:

you should never use, ever.

Kirsten:

And I'm laughing my butt off right now

J:

And that is Comic Sans, right?

Kirsten:

Yes

J:

Yeah, and, and so

Kirsten:

And what is the title font of the book, J?

J:

It's literally the title font on my book, and I know

J:

this, but I used it on purpose.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

I said, "I am going to be so rebellious that I'm gonna use the font

J:

that every creative person on the planet

Kirsten:

Hates

J:

Tells you not to use."

J:

Yeah, hates, they just hate it, right?

J:

And so I said, "How clever am I that I'm gonna be this ultra-rebel to

J:

use that on the cover of my book?"

J:

And that was a huge fail.

J:

And what I failed to consider was that people who don't know me know

J:

that I know that about Comic Sans.

J:

So any designer that looks at this book and says "It's a book on creativity

J:

by a guy who doesn't know you're not supposed to use Comic Sans."

J:

So, that was probably my biggest, you know, design fail I ever did.

J:

Now, one time I explained it to a another designer and she goes,

J:

"Now that you've explained it,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmmm

J:

That's cool, and I'll buy a copy."

J:

But, you know,

Kirsten:

Uh-huh

J:

Trying to explain that to every person who wants to buy your book,

J:

probably not the best thing, so you know.

Kirsten:

And it's also a damn clever book.

J:

Oh, thanks.

Kirsten:

I mean, it really is.

Kirsten:

It's a damn clever book.

Kirsten:

And you get into the mind of a creative person through the framework

Kirsten:

of a college student, taking,

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Basically writing blog posts, and you introduce people to how creatives

Kirsten:

think without in any way talking down to them, or in any way making it alien.

Kirsten:

How the hell did you come up with that?

J:

So, I'll say this, what, we did a few attempts at, at, my co-author Bennett

J:

Litwin and I, said he, he started putting together, we read all these amazing books.

J:

We said, "This is awesome.

J:

How can we share this information with people?"

J:

And, and we synthesized everything.

J:

And when we started to write it, it sounded a lot like a textbook.

J:

And I said, "Creatives, you know, that's not exactly the best

J:

approach with a lot of creatives, is making it sound like a textbook."

J:

And so we said, "How could, how might we, right, tell this in a story

Kirsten:

Mmm-hmm

J:

That maybe creatives could get into and relate to.

J:

And since I teach at the college level, and a lot of my students and, and some

J:

of the people I've mentored, especially the last few years, have been gals, I

J:

said, "Well, let's just take, you know, a representative, a representation of

J:

some of the folks I've helped over the last few years," which happen to be some

Kirsten:

Yep

J:

Gals and say, you know, "Let's make them the central character."

J:

and that's maybe a little bit of a fail, because, you know,

J:

here's our central character as a gal and who are the authors?

J:

Two dudes, old dudes,

Kirsten:

J:

Right.

J:

So, you know, that's, that's another thing that, you know, we're kinda like, okay.

Kirsten:

Uh,

J:

But I think, go ahead.

Kirsten:

I'm, I'm gonna stop you right there, because

J:

Okay

Kirsten:

I've known you for a really long time.

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And you have gotten into my head and spoken my brain better than I can,

J:

Thank you

Kirsten:

What, 25 times, by now?

Kirsten:

Like, when I've been like, "J.

Kirsten:

ba, ba, ba, ba, ba," and you're like, "Okay,

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

What about this?"

Kirsten:

And I'm like,

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

"Oh, yeah," so it doesn't surprise me that you could write from

Kirsten:

the perspective of somebody else, because you can put yourself into other people's

Kirsten:

heads better than most anybody I've seen.

Kirsten:

I mean, you're really

J:

Thank you

Kirsten:

Good at getting into other people's

J:

Thank you

Kirsten:

Shoes, so

J:

Well, and, and that's kind of why I transitioned over to user

J:

experience is because the first thing about design thinking or user

J:

experience is all about empathy,

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

Right.

J:

It's about considering who you're talking to, considering the pain points of

J:

the person you're trying to solve for, and really trying to solve for them.

J:

And that's the reason we wrote, wrote the book.

J:

Actually, my students asked me to write the book.

J:

I kept telling these stories in class and my students said, "When are you

J:

gonna put all these stories together?

J:

When are you gonna put these thoughts together in a book

J:

so that you can share it?"

J:

So I, you know, we wrote the book a few years ago.

J:

It took me forever.

J:

I'll have to admit that imposter syndrome and perfectionism is something that, even

Kirsten:

J:

Though I've done all these things,

Kirsten:

Yup

J:

It really still is a part of, if you're a creative, you're going to

J:

experience it at some point in your life.

J:

And I definitely did.

Kirsten:

Oh yeah

J:

It, it probably took a year longer to get the book finished, because I just,

J:

you know, even simple things like, Are people gonna like my illustrations?

J:

Are people gonna understand why all the illustrations aren't consistent?

J:

And I took different styles.

J:

I took a lot of risk with the book.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

And some things I thought we did really, really well.

J:

And there's a few things, like the cover,

Kirsten:

J:

That I probably should have, I probably should have rethought.

J:

But, you know, I, I still think the book is valuable.

J:

I think there's still good advice, and, eventually, Bennett and I have

J:

talked about doing another book aimed at creatives that will incorporate some

J:

of the stuff I've learned and both of us have learned, because Bennett has

J:

gone on and done his own feature film.

J:

He, he was a producer

Kirsten:

Mmmm

J:

On his own feature film called Frackers, and so he got that done.

J:

Of course, it launched right during the middle of COVID,

Kirsten:

J:

But nobody was going to movies.

Kirsten:

Of course it did.

J:

So, you know,

Kirsten:

Of course

J:

Yeah.

J:

That timing could have been better there too, but you know, that's

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

The way things pan out.

Kirsten:

So, this podcast is ongoing mastery of presenting and speaking and

J:

Right

Kirsten:

Ongoing mastery is kind of your jam.

Kirsten:

Like that's built

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Into your DNA.

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Which is one of the reasons why I think, where did you when I meet?

Kirsten:

Was it at Max?

J:

I think we met at Max.

Kirsten:

Okay

J:

And I think what resonated with both of us, I think, is because a

J:

lot of people who are in the Adobe program, who love Adobe products,

J:

who get into the community, at their heart, it's about helping people.

J:

At their

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

Heart, it's about helping creatives be as creative as they can be.

J:

And that's really what I've discovered is my life purpose.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

Why I've been teaching for, next year will be 22 years, and I

J:

think that's where we resonated.

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

You and I both love, part of our mission and purpose is helping other

J:

creatives achieve what they wanna achieve and, and help them get to that next

J:

level in their, in their own success.

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

And that, by the way, that's, for the people on the video and the people

Kirsten:

who are listening, that's Adobe Max.

Kirsten:

And Adobe Max is like Disneyland for creatives if they use Adobe products.

Kirsten:

It's just, that's it.

Kirsten:

It's, it's all the things.

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Yeah, I, I mean, I really, I really appreciate

Kirsten:

that you sent me the book.

Kirsten:

It's great.

Kirsten:

I do crack up at the cover and I'm, I almost wish it could be released with

Kirsten:

a banner that goes, "Yes, we know."

J:

Kirsten:

"Yes we know."

J:

We know it's Comic Sans.

Kirsten:

"Yes, we know it's Comic Sans.

Kirsten:

We did it on purpose.

Kirsten:

Read the fucking book," which I admit is probably not the best marketing, which

Kirsten:

is why I am not a marketing person.

Kirsten:

But, I would totally do that.

Kirsten:

I would put a nice big banner right across it and be like, "Seriously,

Kirsten:

we know what we're talking about.

Kirsten:

We do."

J:

Yeah, I, I may do, I may do a commercial where I point

J:

it out, so maybe people that, that's, can get beyond the cover.

Kirsten:

J:

You know, of course, they say the cover is why people buy books.

J:

So, if I was gonna fail, that's probably the worst place I could have failed.

J:

But still, you know, we, people have gotten the book.

J:

Thank goodness.

Kirsten:

People have.

J:

And thank you.

J:

If you are one of the people that has, has bought our book, thank you very much.

J:

We appreciate it.

Kirsten:

Yeah.

Kirsten:

So, and, and I'm laughing because before we got on the recording, I

Kirsten:

told you that my first ever TEDx dropped two days ago, and I'm in the

Kirsten:

position right now of sharing it.

Kirsten:

And the default still image on it is the least attractive image of me, bar none,

Kirsten:

in my entire 53 years on this earth.

Kirsten:

And I'm looking at it to the point where my husband called me, he's

Kirsten:

traveling, and he said, "Honey, can they do something about that?"

Kirsten:

And I'm like, "Not without losing the people who've already signed up,

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Losing the metrics."

Kirsten:

And he goes, "Oh, that's a shame."

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And it's like, yeah, so I'm, I'm just gonna go with, I'll look

Kirsten:

better in person, yay .

J:

Yeah, see, again, as I was telling you, the, the bar is

J:

low, so now anytime anybody sees you, they go, "You look amazing.

J:

Oh my gosh.

J:

You know, I saw your picture, but in person you look fantastic."

Kirsten:

"You look so much better.

Kirsten:

You're practically a model."

Kirsten:

Yeah, exactly, it's like, and I'm promoting the hell out of it.

J:

Nice

Kirsten:

But what's funny is that I was just in conversation with my

Kirsten:

friend Kellie, who works with me, not 15 minutes before this call,

J:

Okay

Kirsten:

And she said, "Why is it not up on the front page of your website?"

Kirsten:

And I said, "Oh, it doesn't really fit, and narratively, I, I put

Kirsten:

it on the speaking page, but."

Kirsten:

And she looked at me, she goes, "You're full of it, you know.

J:

Kirsten:

You know why it's not up there."

J:

That's right.

Kirsten:

And I'm like, "I can't stand to have it up there, because it's so ugly."

Kirsten:

And she went, "Well, sucks to be you.

Kirsten:

Put it up."

Kirsten:

And I'm like, "Yes ma'am."

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

So I will

J:

No, I kind of agree.

J:

And I will say, you know, if your audience is a creative and if you

J:

are like me, that sometimes you have a hard time internally thinking,

J:

"Well, what are people gonna say?"

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

"What are people gonna think?"

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

And really, we constrain ourselves a lot as creatives sometimes, because

J:

we put self limitations on some of our ideas because we don't want people to

J:

think of us a particular way, or we don't want people to misunderstand us, right?

J:

I mean, just like the cover of my book,

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

If people didn't get, I was purposely doing it

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

To say, take risks, do things that you know you're not supposed

J:

to do, and, it can backfire, right?

J:

It can, like, you know, like I think it did a little bit in my case, but it

J:

makes for a great story now, because now

Kirsten:

Yes

J:

When people hear it, they go, "Oh,

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

So you did know you're not supposed to use Comic Sans" and I was like, "Exactly."

J:

And my book is about beginners who don't know what they're doing, and

J:

the whole book is about the journey.

J:

So there's meta layers

Kirsten:

J:

Within the reason I did things, right.

J:

When

Kirsten:

Yes

J:

You're starting off, you don't know what you're doing,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

So you might use Comic Sans if you were doing this.

J:

So they don't get that it was part of the hero's journey.

Kirsten:

Yep

J:

But then also it's about taking a risk, because I do know what I'm

J:

doing, but I said, "How cool would it be to be meta, to say, use the

J:

font that nobody tells you to use."

Kirsten:

Use the font everybody that says, "Never use this, okay."

J:

Yeah, everybody says, you know, "Don't use this."

J:

So, anyway,

Kirsten:

So, what, what would you advise people, if they're struggling

Kirsten:

with ongoing mastery in their work,

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

And trying to especially get out of their own way.

Kirsten:

Like, I struggle with it.

Kirsten:

You some struggle, struggle with it.

Kirsten:

We all do.

J:

Yeah, sure

Kirsten:

What, what is a good technique to help you kind of get out of that?

Kirsten:

What would you suggest?

J:

So, I think, there's a story that I read and the story is there

J:

was a guy who was really into being a Buddhist and he traveled all

J:

this way to this Buddhist master.

J:

And he had read all the books and he was a Ph.D.

J:

and knew everything about Buddhist history, Buddhist philosophy,

J:

Buddhist, everything, right?

J:

So he gets to meet this guy and the guy says, "Hey, how you doing?"

J:

And the guy starts talking, "Oh my gosh, I'm here finally.

J:

It's so cool.

J:

Let me tell you all the things I know."

J:

And the guy goes, "Do you want some tea?"

J:

He said, "Well, sure."

J:

So, he starts pouring the tea and he's talking, talking, still talking,

J:

and then the guy keeps pouring and it's overflowing the teacup.

J:

And he goes, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.

J:

Hey, you're, you're overflowing the teacup."

J:

And he goes, "You are the tea cup.

J:

You are so full of everything you know, that there's no room for anything else."

J:

And the lesson there is always try to have the mind of a beginner.

J:

Always try to have that mindset because at the beginning of anything, no

J:

matter what, if it's drawing, you know, coloring with crayons or, you know,

J:

trying to use Photoshop for the first time, when you do those things, you

J:

are not gonna know what you're doing.

J:

And you're going to look a little foolish, because you can't find

J:

something, or it's not gonna be what, what's inside your head, you know?

J:

It's gonna take some time.

J:

Embrace the child, embrace the beginner philosophy, because if you do that, you're

J:

not gonna take yourself as seriously and you're actually gonna learn better, right?

J:

You'll actually learn better, because we tend to measure the, the new things

J:

we're trying to learn based on our mastery of what we already know.

J:

And we don't wanna look foolish in front of other people, and we don't

J:

wanna look foolish to ourselves.

J:

And we get frustrated when we can't learn things as fast as we think

J:

we should be able to learn things.

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

So, so embrace that beginner mindset, because then just have fun.

J:

Say, "I don't know what I'm doing.

J:

I'm totally making this clay pot into some garbled clay thing that doesn't

J:

even resemble what was in my mind's eye.

J:

But that's okay, because I'm learning how to not do things."

J:

And I can't tell you how many times I've been playing in Photoshop or

J:

another software when I mess up and I do something, I go, "Whoa.

J:

That's totally not what I wanted, but that's cool."

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

And then later on, you go back and you go, "I totally know where I can use that

J:

thing that I messed up on in a really cool way to make this client happy."

J:

And so

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

Those happy accidents, those messing around not know what you're

J:

doing, is really where a lot of the most learning takes place.

J:

And that's why they say it's never really failing if you're learning,

J:

because, and we just don't like to fail, so we prevent ourselves from

J:

putting ourselves in situations where we might fail or can fail, which

J:

means that comfort zone that we block ourselves in becomes our own creative

J:

limitations for the work that's possible for us to create that's within us.

J:

We close ourself down by what people think or not wanting to

J:

look foolish or make mistakes.

J:

And I think the best creatives just go beyond and risk it and be

J:

brave and just try something new.

J:

And don't worry about what people think because most people, and I read

J:

this too, when you die, most people, it's kind of dark, but most people are

J:

gonna forget about you within a year.

J:

I mean, your close friends and family are gonna remember you and they'll think

J:

about you, but most people you kind of knew as acquaintances and stuff, they're

J:

not gonna think about you after a year.

J:

So why are you so worried about

Kirsten:

Mmmm

J:

What those people think, right?

J:

You know, do your stuff while you're here and go beyond, and stop worrying

J:

about what people think, because they're not really gonna care about

J:

you that long after you're gone.

J:

So while you're here, just do it anyways.

J:

It's a hard

Kirsten:

I love it.

J:

Thing, it's, it's easy to say and hard to do because we're so worried

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

About what strangers think about it, even people we don't like.

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

I mean, I've seen that.

J:

There are people that I don't like or don't like me, and I'm

J:

worried about what they think.

J:

And I'm sitting here going, "Why do I do that?

J:

Why can't I just be creative and just do my thing?

J:

And if they don't like it, well they already don't like me,

J:

so what am I worried about?"

Kirsten:

Yep.

Kirsten:

Yep.

Kirsten:

I love it, because that's exactly it.

Kirsten:

I, I find myself kind of trapped by the opinions of people I

Kirsten:

haven't even met yet, you know?

J:

Right

Kirsten:

Like, people on the internet, that

J:

That's right

Kirsten:

I know I'm gonna get trolled, because I'm a person

J:

Sure

Kirsten:

I'm a person in public, you know, in a public space.

Kirsten:

I'm on the internet.

Kirsten:

I'm now putting

J:

That's right.

Kirsten:

Myself out there, therefore it's going to happen.

J:

Yep

Kirsten:

And part of me is like, "But

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

I don't wanna get yelled at."

Kirsten:

And yet it's like,

J:

Right

Kirsten:

"But would you ever talk to that person?

Kirsten:

No.

Kirsten:

So why are you listening to them?

Kirsten:

Why are you giving them power?"

J:

That's right.

Kirsten:

Yeah, yeah

J:

That's right.

J:

That's, when we worry about what other people think, we give them control of us.

J:

And it's, what's really interesting is when you start to shift, when you start to

J:

not worry about what other people think,

Kirsten:

Mm-hmm

J:

Or you say, "I, you know, I just really don't care what you think.

J:

I'm doing my own thing," people get jealous, because they

J:

wish they could be that way.

J:

They wish they would be confident enough to not care, and those are the trolls.

J:

Really,

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

Really trolls are, a lot of times, people who are really insecure.

J:

They're not doing what they want to do in their life.

J:

They're not achieving their dreams.

J:

So what they do is they look towards other people who are trying to

J:

get stuff done and critique them.

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

And I, I feel sorry for them, because some of them are really unhappy

J:

people that have nothing better to do than critique people that are

J:

actually trying to get stuff done.

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

I wish for them that they would find their passion, their joy,

J:

and start doing their own thing.

J:

That's what I would wish for them, instead of throwing negativity into the world

J:

and for people who are really trying and making an effort, just trying to

J:

make those people feel bad because it gives them some sort of sadistic joy.

J:

I don't

Kirsten:

Yeah

J:

Understand that, but, no.

Kirsten:

Yep, exactly, exactly.

Kirsten:

I, and I know that you've actually got a really tight window, so I'm only

J:

Yep

Kirsten:

Gonna keep you another minute, but where can people find you?

Kirsten:

Like, if they, if they wanna know more about the magic that is J,

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

Where is the magic that is J found?

J:

So, so my website got hacked by Russians over COVID.

Kirsten:

Oh, dammit

J:

And, and I, I still have not, I still have not taken

J:

the time to, to get that going.

Kirsten:

All right

J:

So that's on my 2023 agenda.

Kirsten:

All right.

Kirsten:

Are you on Insta?

J:

The best way, the best way to find me is just do a LinkedIn.

Kirsten:

Okay

J:

So, that's the best way to connect with me.

J:

You can get our book, if you search really hard on Amazon.

J:

So

Kirsten:

It's out there.

J:

So, maybe you can send out, send out the link, alright.

J:

And

Kirsten:

I will post the link.

J:

Let people know.

Kirsten:

Yes

J:

I, I'll give you, I'll give you a, a, a kind of a cool, I am

J:

working on my first fiction novel, with a friend of mine, Karen Goddy,

Kirsten:

Cool

J:

And we are, we, we're through our second pass.

J:

The first pass we got beta readers.

J:

It's okay, but the second pass is amazing.

J:

We're biased, but we're loving it.

J:

And so that will come

Kirsten:

Yes

J:

Out in 2023, so stay tuned on that.

J:

It's gonna be fantastic.

Kirsten:

Oh

J:

It's a sci-fi story about a bunch of kids who get trapped in a dimension.

J:

And, both Karen and I think people are really gonna love it.

J:

So, stay tuned for that.

Kirsten:

Fantastic

J:

So that's something new, yeah.

Kirsten:

Awesome, awesome.

Kirsten:

Well, I, as always, I just love your take on creativity and energy and positivity

Kirsten:

and, and you are just naturally a mentor to pretty much everybody that you meet

J:

Thanks

Kirsten:

Which is a gift, and I appreciate it.

J:

Thank you

Kirsten:

And I really wish we lived in the same damn state.

Kirsten:

I do.

J:

Yeah

Kirsten:

So, at some point,

J:

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Kirsten:

At some point, we'll be in the same state, and we'll have

Kirsten:

dinner, and it'll be awesome.

Kirsten:

And other than that, I will see you at some point.

Kirsten:

Thank you everybody for listening.

Kirsten:

I hope you've found value, because I think this is a positive,

Kirsten:

joyful conversation to have.

J:

It is.

Kirsten:

And, as always, find us on Ongoing Mastery: Presenting & Speaking on

Kirsten:

LinkedIn, the group, that's where we're kind of gathering everybody together

Kirsten:

and we'll start dropping information.

Kirsten:

And other than that, have a great coming up turkey coma day.

J:

Turkey day, yes, yeah, yeah

Kirsten:

Turkey day.

Kirsten:

Everybody have tryptophan coma.

J:

Thanksgiving, whatever you wanna call it.

Kirsten:

Whatever you wanna call it.

J:

If you're, and if you're from a country that doesn't celebrate Thanksgiving,

J:

enjoy the upcoming holiday seasons.

Kirsten:

Yes

J:

Right, and just spend time with friends and family, because that's really

Kirsten:

Perfect

J:

At the end of it, that's the most important thing to do.

Kirsten:

Yes it is.

Kirsten:

All right.

Kirsten:

Thank you so much for being on here.

Kirsten:

I really appreciate it.

J:

Thank you for being my friend.

J:

Thank you for inviting me.

Kirsten:

All right, and we'll see everybody next time.

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