In this episode of Good Enough Counsellors, I’m joined by the brilliant Jeanine Connor -psychodynamic psychotherapist, author, and editor of the BACP Children, Young People and Families Journal. Jeanine describes the realities of working with adolescents, exploring how the Netflix series Adolescence and media stories fuel fear about young people. Having worked with transgender young people for over 20 years, Jeanine also offers her insights into working with this client group. We also chat about how to hold space for young people in therapy, laugh about memorable moments with teens, and reflect on why this work is so vital.

Takeaways:

• Where the Netflix TV series Adolescence went wrong
• Why banning smartphones misses the point
• What the discussion on boys and the Manosphere forgets
• How Gen Z’s views on gender and sexuality challenge old assumptions
• Supporting young people’s mental health in a world of constant change
• Why trans youth need respect and affirmation, not fear and bans

You can find Jeanine via her website: jeanineconnor.com or on LinkedIn.

Setting up in private practice? Download my free checklist HERE

Need ideas for how to get clients? Download my free handout 21 Ways for Counsellors to Attract New Clients HERE

You can also find me here:

The Good Enough Counsellors Facebook Group

Josephine Hughes on Facebook

Josephine Hughes on YouTube

My website: josephinehughes.com

Keywords:

transgender issues, LGBTQ youth, Gen Z perspectives, adolescent mental health, manosphere, psychotherapy for young people, Adolescence, gender identity exploration, supporting transgender youth, parental guidance for LGBTQ issues, youth and technology, therapy for teenagers, understanding modern adolescence

The information contained in Good Enough Counsellors is provided for information purposes only. The contents of this podcast are not intended to amount to advice and you should not rely on any of the contents of this podcast. Professional advice should be obtained before taking or refraining from taking any action as a result of the contents of this podcast.

Josephine Hughes disclaims all liability and responsibility arising from any reliance placed on any of the contents of this podcast.

Jeanine: 00:00:01

I don't know a young person under 25 who would. It would even be in their vocabulary to talk about transgender issues or LGBT issues. It's not an issue to them, it's just life.

You know, some people are gay, some people are straight, some people are trans, some people are cis. It is not an issue to most Gen Zs at all. At all. And the same with all different intersectionalities. It's not an issue.

Diversity is something that is acceptable. It.

Josephine: 00:00:41

So. Hello and welcome to the Good Enough Counsellors Podcast. I'm Josephine Hughes and today I'm delighted to welcome Janine Connor to the studio.

Janine is a psychodynamic Psychotherapist with over 25 years experience of the therapy world and she's the author of 250 can you believe it? Publications, most notably three books on therapy, you're Not My Effing Mother, and Other Things Gen Z say in Therapy.

That's her latest, Stop Effing Nodding and other things 16 year olds say in Therapy and the more traditionally titled Reflective Practice in Childhood Adolescent Psychotherapy.

iology for therapists back in: 2006

And the reason we met is because Janine's also the editor of the BACP Children, Young People and Families Journal. Janine, I don't know how you get time to do any of that and, and run a practice as well, because you're still a working psychotherapist, aren't you?

Jeanine: 00:01:53

I am, yes, I am. Well, thank you first of all for having me. Josephine, it's really nice to meet you. Not in person as such, but I can see your face.

Josephine: 00:02:02

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:02:03

Which is nice. When we work together on the journal article, it was all via email. So it's nice to see people moving and animated.

Josephine: 00:02:12

That's it.

Jeanine: 00:02:13

Yeah. I do have quite a busy working life when you lay it all out like that. But I'm very, I'm very disciplined and I'm very organized.

So I have my, my clinical days and times and I have my writing slash editing days and times and they, they overlap, of course, but I have designated times to do my, my different parts of my work. And for me it works really, really well. I think they all feed into each other. There's overlaps and I wouldn't enjoy.

And I don't think I would be as good at any one of them if I didn't have the others kind of alongside.

Josephine: 00:02:53

Yeah. Does add a variety, doesn't it, to your day and your work, I think.

And it's interesting to hear you say that there's this sort of almost cross fertilization, I guess, of the different things.

I mean, that certainly stands out from what I see of your books and the work that you do in your sort of more public facing work is that the what you're doing with kids and young people really does feed into that.

And that is part of the reason why I really, really wanted to get you on at the moment, because I followed Janine on LinkedIn and Janine was talking about the adolescents program and I'll just read you out what she said. I'm disappointing that so many publications are jumping on the adolescent boys are dangerous. Let's ban smartphones bandwagons.

Those wagons are full and adding to the pylon isn't helpful. It's time to share meaningful conversations with people who have meaningful conversations with adolescents.

And I'm here and I just thought that'd be just brilliant timing to get Janine onto the show because the Adolescence program, for anybody who hasn't heard it, it's the really powerful story of a young man who. Young adolescent who stabs one of his school friends or I don't know if you call her a school friend, but.

But one of the girls that he's involved with. And it's the story of different people viewing what happens.

So you see it from his dad's viewpoint, Interestingly, you see it from a therapist's viewpoint as well and from the police officer's viewpoint. And it is a really moving and powerful story, isn't it? And a lot of people have, have watched it.

But I think it's really interesting to hear your response that you feel disappointed with how it's been portrayed. And I just wondered if you could tell us more what you think is missing in our conversations about adolescence.

Jeanine: 00:04:40

I think rather than start on a negative, what is great is that having storylines like that out in the general media in a Netflix drama that's been watched by I don't know how many, lots of people, I'm not going to say numbers because I get them wrong is good in that it starts conversations such as the one that we're having.

Josephine: 00:05:02

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:05:03

I have been inundated with conversations with adults who are now terrified that the young people, either that they parent or Support in different capacities. Teachers or therapists are all out there being radicalized by far right incel groups and planning to stab each other.

And that just is not the reality. And I think the thing that I can't stress highly enough is it was a drama, it was not a documentary, it was not a real life.

I mean, the way that it was filmed, and there's been a lot spoken about the way that it was filmed as well. Sort of fly on the wall, one take per episode. I don't know how true that is, but that's what a lot of people are talking about.

So it does look very realistic, but it isn't. It's a drama and it was for dramatic purposes and it's very sens.

Rationalizing and, and I personally think it's done more harm than good because I think it portrays adolescents in a bad light. I think it portrays schools and teachers in a bad light. Parents, the, the professional, I think was supposed to be a forensic psychologist.

And I've heard people, you know, in associated fields of forensic psychology saying they're portraying us in a bad light. So it's great that we're talking, but for people who are not talking, who are just watching it and going, oh my God, this is what's happening.

That's really dangerous because that isn't what's happening and it's not helping to educate people.

What I'm hearing from adolescents themselves and young adults is that it's making parents kind of tighten up even more and go, either you're not having a phone, full stop, or you're not having Snapchat, Instagram, whatever, whatever. Because if you go into those spaces, this is what will happen. And that isn't on the whole what will happen.

So I, I think, I think it's caused a lot of fear and like a lot of things are spreading more misinformation. And that's kind of what I was getting a beer my bonnet about.

Josephine: 00:07:30

Yeah, it's really interesting because I think, I mean, from my perspective as somebody whose children are now, you know, the youngest is 27, 28. To see the way the schools were portrayed, for example, it was just sort of like chaos, wasn't it?

It was almost like caged animals the way it was portrayed. And obviously I did sit there and think, you know, God, is this really what schools are like now? Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:07:54

And I think if a young person was murdered by another young person in a school, I think of all the school would probably close.

And second of all, they would have, as I've called for meaningful conversations with their, with their students about what's happened and offer support. I mean, what is portrayed in the program is they come in, they chaos reigns supreme, and they're put in front of videos to watch.

Well, the teachers just kind of swan around the school. I mean, it was just appalling, I think.

Josephine: 00:08:27

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:08:28

I'm also. It was interesting that I got your request to talk to you about this last week.

I also had a request to write an article on my thoughts about the show. And, and so I've been doing some research and the question that, that I've kind of had in my mind is, what was the point of the program?

Josephine: 00:08:46

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:08:46

And one of the, the co writers, Stephen Graham, who plays the dad as well, famous actor, I found an interview that, that he did and I, and I wrote down his quote. He said, we made a piece that was based on truth and what is happening in Britain with young men stabbing young girls to death.

We just wanted to shine a light there and create conversation between parents and children. So I thought, God, that's really startling.

So I did some more research and I checked the numbers, and according to the Office of National Statistics, last year the number of girls under 16 who were murdered with a knife was seven. And that's seven too many.

Josephine: 00:09:32

Yes, absolutely.

Jeanine: 00:09:33

Granted. But the way that the story is told is this is like, prevalent everywhere.

There's six and a half million under 16 girls in the UK and so it's a, you know, it's, it's tiny. It's still awful. I'm not saying it's not awful, but it's. I think the danger is that now some adults are thinking, this is what happens.

This, this is the norm. It's not the norm. That's my point.

Josephine: 00:10:01

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:10:01

The extreme, and it's minimal. We still have to nip it in the bud.

Josephine: 00:10:07

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:10:07

The way to do that is not to say, I'm taking away your smartphone or I'm banning Instagram or you're not allowed Snapchat. It's, I think, for adults to educate themselves first and foremost and go, what. What are young people doing? Let me do some research of my own.

Let me hold the front page. Talk to young people about what they're doing on their phones and what they cross.

And the families who I've spoken to who have either watched adolescents together, so parents and children have watched it together, or they've watched it separately, and then talks about it together. Amazing. Brilliant. It's been a way to open up those conversations. Yeah. And for parents to go oh my God, this really worries me.

Have you ever come across this?

Josephine: 00:10:51

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:10:52

And the adolescents will say, probably, no, I've heard of it, but no, it's not happening day to day in my, in my life.

Josephine: 00:11:01

Oh, that's really interesting because I think one of the things that's coming up for me is this whole sort of conversation around the manosphere. Yeah. You know, the influence of Andrew Tate, et cetera. Yeah.

And again, you do get the impression when you're reading the papers, I've got a couple of friends who are, who are teachers who sort of mentioned that. I'm not sure they mentioned it about school, but they might have mentioned it about young people perhaps that they've talked to.

I just wonder what your take is on it. Do you think there's like a. Really.

Because, you know, when you read the papers, it's almost as though, you know, most, most young boys are being terribly influenced by this. And also stuff about the rise of pornography as well and people doing pornography on their phones.

Jeanine: 00:11:38

Yeah. I think for me they're too separate. Perhaps related, but separate issues. I meet way more misogynistic adult males.

Josephine: 00:11:51

Oh, really?

Jeanine: 00:11:52

Than I do teenage males. And that includes, I, I hate to say, but it includes male therapists, parents, teachers who have very misogynistic views. We know.

I hope we all know that young people learn most about gender roles from their own families. And I think in the. To link back with the program, I just watched episode three again last night before speaking to you this morning.

And episode three is the one where the boy and the professional side are head to head and she is asking lots of questions about. Tell me about your dad, tell me about your granddad. What kind of men are they? What do they do? What do they do when they're not working?

How do they treat their wives? How do they treat you?

And I think we know that all young people learn way more about gender roles from what they witness at home in their families than they do from anywhere else. I mean, that's a given. Do they talk to me about the manosphere? Yeah, they do. And girls as well.

But I think they're much more able to call it out than my generation were. I mean, the manosphere didn't exist. The manosphere is kind of an umbrella term for any kind of misogynistic or anti femin views online.

Those views have always existed. They weren't online because we didn't have online when I was growing up, but.

But there were still those views and we kind of put up with it a Lot of people just put up with it. Whereas now young women are going, no, this is not okay. I'm going to call it out. Which is. Is great.

They've got the language to do that and the support of each other to do that, which they also find online. I mean, online has, has some really good spaces.

Josephine: 00:13:43

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:13:44

And the other side of that, which is not getting so much press attention, is the femosphere, which is the kind of female equivalent of the manosphere, which also has a load of really extremist views, but from a feminist perspective.

So anti men, Missandri, the trad wife, kind of stuff of a woman's places in the home, cooking, cleaning, having babies, you know, all of that and that. I don't know that maybe, maybe we'll come around to that eventually in the media.

But that's still underground the way that the manosphere was underground. And now the, the spotlight is on it. And I think to, to point the finger at any one thing and go, that's the problem.

Whether it's the Internet, smartphones, the manosphere. It's reductionist, it's not helpful. It's.

I understand people want easy answers and quick fixes, but they don't exist because people are more complicated than that.

Josephine: 00:14:49

Yeah, it's really interesting because again, I'm speaking as a parent here rather than a. Then as a therapist, but as a parent, it was really difficult to know how much time to allow them.

We were lucky in that I don't think social media was around as much when my kids were growing up, but.

Jeanine: 00:15:05

They did spend an awful lot of.

Josephine: 00:15:06

Time online, you know, playing games and.

Jeanine: 00:15:08

That sort of stuff. Yeah.

Josephine: 00:15:08

And it's such a difficult balance, I think as a parent to know, you know, what is helpful, what is unhelpful.

We were fairly liberal and in fact, you know, we think that it was of benefit to our kids in that, you know, they are very, very techie, they are very good with everything online and they've used it in all their careers.

But, you know, I sort of think now, God, you know, in a way I feel as though I'm quite lucky in that the age that I am meant that my children weren't faced with these sorts of conversations.

And I feel quite sorry for parents who've got adolescence at the moment because I think it must be very scary at the moment to be a parent and to be seeing these conversations and wondering what you can do.

I saw something recently in one of the therapists site where it was saying, here's a key to all the different things that they might be saying in text and what they mean, because that was part of adolescence, wasn't it? Was the use of different emojis, that sort of stuff. So it's really interesting. Why do you think that sort of banning smartphones is such a.

It's almost like a go to, isn't it? Oh, well, you know, right, Schools now we're going to ban smartphones. Parents, we're going to reduce the time that we allow our kids to be on them.

What do you think? What risks do you think we run if. If that's our sort of knee jerk response?

Jeanine: 00:16:26

I think it's looking in the wrong place. And I think the amount of time that young people, that any people spend on smartphones and online is not the main concern.

I think what is being viewed online is more important than the amount of time. So that's the first thing that I would say.

So if you have a young person who is spending a lot of time online reading about world news and joining online communities because they can't find communities around, geographically near them or where they feel supported and seen, that's really positive and really. So taking away phones takes away that.

And you know, it's not that long ago that we were all locked down and socially isolated from each other and online worlds were the only ones that we had. Online connections were the only ones that we had. And. And they are real. That.

That's the other thing that annoys me when people say, you know, it gets out into the real world. The online word is real.

Josephine: 00:17:30

Y. It is often real people.

Jeanine: 00:17:32

Yeah, yeah. Those connections that we form there and friendships that we make are real. Yeah, they're no less real. It's just, it's a different medium.

And I think people are scared of things that they don't understand and that we can apply that to technology. We can apply it to people who are from a different country or a different, you know, experience to ours. We are fearful and it's maybe evolutionary.

It's part of how. How human beings are made to be scared of things that are unfamiliar and unknown about.

Josephine: 00:18:07

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:18:08

But I think the answer to that is not to ban it, it's to learn about it.

So if as parents and educators and professionals supporting young people, we don't understand something, I think it is far more beneficial to us and young people if we try and learn more about it. Rather than go, oh, that's bad, let's ban it. Yeah, the Internet's not going anywhere. They're not going anywhere.

And so let's celebrate that and look for the positives in it. And. And like I said before, it's a way that we can really open up conversations with young people. Questions like, oh, what do you do on your phone?

What kinds of things do you look at? What. What kind of content do you enjoy on YouTube? Or which different apps do you use to connect with your friends? And why are they good?

And why are the other ones not so good for you? And learn. Learn from young people. They have all the tech know how that we don't.

Josephine: 00:19:06

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, they. They do very rapidly become our teachers, don't they? I think in. In terms of what's available and what's happening online, I think.

Jeanine: 00:19:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they like that. They like to know that they know more than us.

Josephine: 00:19:23

I know, because they do. I love it when you get one of those questions. Do you know what Snapchat is? Yeah, exactly.

Jeanine: 00:19:31

Exactly. We could have done with some adolescents this morning, you and I, Josephine, when we couldn't connect.

Josephine: 00:19:36

Yes. Viral tech, definitely. I know it's always useful to have a young person around when you can't connect it. Yeah. So what do you think that this is?

This is a more sort of deeper question, really. What do you think adolescents are actually telling us about their emotional needs right now? What do you think they really need right now?

Jeanine: 00:20:02

That's a big question. I think what they need is to feel seen, listened to, understood, or at least have a sense that we're trying to understand. And. And they.

They want to feel loved, like. Like any of us understood and loved. I mean, that's. That's the bottom line, really.

Josephine: 00:20:23

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:20:23

And showing an interest in their world online and off, and trying to understand that shows. That shows that we're curious and we're interested and we want to know that. That we're not going to jump to conclusions about them.

We're gonna learn about them from them.

Josephine: 00:20:44

And I guess that sort of moves us on quite nicely, actually, because the other thing I wanted to talk to you about was about the transgender issues as well, because obviously we've connected over the issue that you edited for the Children Young Peoples and Families Journal, where it was all around LGBTQ issues. And I know that you're quite a vocal ally for young transgender people.

What do you think are the biggest misunderstandings of young transgender people that adults have? Everyone.

Jeanine: 00:21:18

The one that comes to mind is that it's a phase they'll grow out of.

Josephine: 00:21:22

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:21:24

You know, when I was pubescent and having my sexual awakenings as a Heterosexual woman. Nobody told me I would grow out of it. They accepted it. They accepted me for that. So I think that's the main one.

Adolescence is a time of questioning and experimentation. And for some young people, that does include experimenting with their sexuality. That may change because sexuality is not rigid and fixed.

And I think an acceptance of that, that sounds like quite a simple statement, but for a young person, that is huge. Just to be told, yeah, of course you're working stuff out. That's. That's the job of being an adolescent.

In terms of someone's gender, the same may apply. If a young person is questioning their gender identity, then I'll go along for the ride with them and be curious and wondering.

But if they're certain, as I was certain that I was a woman, then I'll accept that, too. And I think, yeah, it's the same as with. With anything. If somebody's sure of who they are, then listen to them.

If they're wondering and they're working it out, then try and help them to do that.

Josephine: 00:22:48

And presumably, it's something that has grown in your practice, I should think, from maybe 20, 25 years ago, when you first started working with young people.

Jeanine: 00:22:58

That's an interesting question, because the. The first. My first experience of working with transgender clients was about 20 years ago, really, in a. In a CAMS clinic.

And at the time, I had had no training, specific training about working with transgender clients. And I met those clients the same way as I would any other, with empathy and with curiosity.

But I also sought out additional training so that I didn't mess up, so that I was using the right language, you know, those sorts of things that I was concerned about then.

And then as time went on, first of all, I became the person in clinic that all the transgender young people would get sent to, because I became a kind of expert by experience, I suppose. And some of my colleagues were fearful about saying or doing the wrong thing.

Some of my colleagues were not interested in working with transgender clients for lots of different reasons. So then I started to think about, well, how can I help my colleagues?

And I got in different organizations to do different training with us and cpd, and I don't know how long ago I wrote my first columns and articles about working with transgender clients for the same reason, to just kind of burst the illusion that it was something to be frightened of, that these clients were to be frightened of or avoided, or we had to do something different just to treat them with respect, the same as any other, and curiosity. And so it's Kind of. It has grown from there, but I don't think I really do anything any differently to. To what I was doing initially. I.

I've got a bigger platform now because I have LinkedIn, and I suppose I'm more well known in the therapy field.

And I also am the editor of a journal, so I can make sure that articles either written by transgender and gender questioning people are included and that these conversations are always ongoing and always alive on the pages of the journal. Because they weren't. That's new. That's what's changed. They would be one off, you know, now and again, maybe in June when it's Pride month or so.

I try and keep these kinds of conversations alive throughout the year, all the time.

Josephine: 00:25:29

Of course, we're recording this at a time of huge upheaval, aren't we? Because the Supreme Court ruling came out just a few weeks ago. The interim guidance from the EHRC has just come out as well.

And are you finding that there's been an uptick in critical dialogue towards transgender issues?

I don't know if you've experienced this as an editor yet, because it's so recent, but certainly I would have thought on social media you might be experiencing more of a critical uptick, because it seems that Supreme Court ruling means that women who have always been gender critical now feel that they've got more of a voice, and if they're able to speak out more. I don't know what your thoughts are.

Jeanine: 00:26:14

Yeah. I mean, first of all, just to say that when that happens, the Supreme Court ruling, I was. I don't think that I'm naive.

ned that that would happen in: 2025

And I think, sadly, it has validated those gender critical voices the same way as when there was questions around prescribing puberty blockers did. And the same way as when there was the Belle v. Tavistock case did. And, you know, whenever there's a big story in the media, it does do that.

What I'm trying to do is hold on to the fact that it has. It has also brought out lots of people from the shadows on the other side who are going, this is not okay.

You know, the big protest in London the weekend after that happened, and it's encouraging allies to be more visible and vocal as well. I think I'm trying to focus on that rather than the other Side.

Josephine: 00:27:35

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:27:36

But I do get actually quite a lot of. I don't know what to call it. I am going to call it hate, I suppose. I.

I do get a lot of criticism for the things that I say in my articles and in my social media posts in support of transgender young people. And I do get a lot of criticism about the articles that I commission for the journal. A lot. Maybe that's too strong. I get some.

It's like a lot because it feels so horrible. But. And, And. And there are also readers who say I do. I do too much about LGBTQ issues in the Journal. I mean, we can't win, can you? It saddens me.

I will carry on doing what I do and I will carry on speaking on behalf of. Of. Of all young people, because I have the privilege of having a platform to do that, and I see that as my duty.

Josephine: 00:28:39

And. And, I mean, the figures on how many young people are identifying as LGBTQ are actually quite high, aren't they? I mean, I think it's sort of.

In the region, around 50% of young people would identify in some way, as put it under the umbrella term queer. But, yeah, it is an important issue if you're working with young people, isn't it?

Jeanine: 00:28:58

Absolutely is. And again, don't be scared of that or ignorant about what that means. Speak to young people and find out from.

From talking to them that it means that they don't feel that they have to be fixed or defined by what somebody else tells them that they are. They can be experimental, they can question, and they may, the majority end up identifying as the gender that they were assigned at birth.

The majority probably will. But allow them this time to play, to be curious about their gender and their sexuality. And it's not a safeguarding issue.

It's more of a safeguarding issue to deny young people the opportunity to have someone to talk to about how they're feeling. And nobody under the age of 18 can have surgery. So that isn't a child safeguarding issue either, because anybody having surgery is an adult.

So, again, like with the adolescents program, there's a lot of misinformation that terrifies people. And so their answer is, well, let's just ban it all. They feel that that would be an answer.

Josephine: 00:30:12

Yeah. But it is more nuanced than that. Yeah. So how do you help?

There's so much noise, isn't there, at the moment, around transgender issues for any sort of young person who's thinking about it? And it's so heated, the debate. How do you help them. How do you hold space for them to explore it without that sort of influence?

You know, how can they explore safely away from all of that?

Jeanine: 00:30:38

I don't think we can get away from it. It's. It influences. Doesn't. Influence. That's the wrong word. I hear about the noise, and the young transgender people who I work with hear the noise.

What I can do is allow a space for us to explore that and talk about that, which I do on a daily basis, and how the noise out there gets brought into young people's families, into their homes, into their school schools, into their classrooms, and how then the political becomes the personal and vice versa. And. And to help young people of all ages to explore what that means for them individually.

Because that's what I'm interested in, in the therapeutic space is the individual person who's sitting across from me and. And how what's going on is. Is impacting them. And I've had lots of conversations in recent weeks in.

On the face of the Supreme Court ruling and the impact that that's having on people's lives day to day.

Josephine: 00:31:43

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think from. I just had an email this morning from someone saying when their child said to them, I think I'm transgender, how.

When you then start looking online, there's so much out there that's so very negative.

And they got in touch with me to say the fact that I'd explored in my own podcast gloriously unready some of those fears, but also could still be quite. I suppose. I suppose positive is. Is a word. I'm not quite sure it's the right one, but I think it's.

Jeanine: 00:32:14

Sorry.

Josephine: 00:32:14

Yeah, it's just.

It's just that they were able to sort of, you know, to be able to find someone who could acknowledge that it was scary, but that doesn't actually mean that it's all these things that people say that's out there.

Jeanine: 00:32:27

Yeah. And one of the things that stays with me from the article that you wrote for the Journal was.

Was how honest you were as a parent about your own emotional response to your children's coming out. I don't know if that's the term that you or they would use. And yeah, just to hold space for. For parents and children, young people, to.

Josephine: 00:32:53

To.

Jeanine: 00:32:54

To express how they feel about what's going on. I think parents who are looking for support for transgender or gender questioning young people are playing Russian roulette because they.

It's really hard to know what therapists views are. And this is something that, again, I feel strongly about that. I am very open and overt, that I am a trans ally.

In my room, you can see that in my space, I've got lots of LGBT books and resources and ornaments and, you know, badges and all kinds of things. On my website, I've got a statement of inclusion and a trans ally flag. And on my. On my social media.

Josephine: 00:33:38

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:33:39

Also, so. So there's no doubt where I stand. My. My colors are pinned to the mast or whatever the phrase is. But other. Other people are not so overt.

And some therapists use language in a way that is either ambiguous or misleading. And unless you dig deeper into what they're actually saying, the meaning behind the words that they're using, it's hard to see that.

I mean, that was the basis of a presentation that I did at Metanoia in November, which I'm in the process of writing.

Well, I've written an article that's coming out in the June CYP Journal based on that presentation about the language that is used around transgender. Because, again, people don't really understand what.

What some of the language means and what it means for the transgender young people that might end up sitting in front of those counsellors and therapists.

Josephine: 00:34:40

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's really interesting as well, from a parental point of view.

And what I've learned is there are certain dog whistles that will identify.

I know that now, as parents, but I think for many people who perhaps wouldn't know, it then becomes something that perhaps you think, oh, this is really something to worry about, or, you know, it's so easy to go down the rabbit hole of gender critical discourse. And I think it's just very scary when you start reading a lot of this stuff for parents.

Jeanine: 00:35:17

Really scary. It really is. And some parents with the best intentions, they. They don't see that because they don't know what they're looking for.

They don't hear the whistles because what they sound like. And they.

Josephine: 00:35:30

They.

Jeanine: 00:35:31

They turn to the Internet and they turn to therapists and therapists websites and parenting groups for support, and they see things like, we support young people in their expressions of sexuality or their expressions of gender nonconformity. And they think, brilliant, I found. And that. But then, like I say, you go underneath that. And these.

Some of these sites and individual therapists are gender critical and trans exclusionary, and people don't know that. And if they don't know what they're looking for. And that's the thing that really scares me.

And also the flag that parents of course, notice, which is this is a safeguarding issue. You know, everybody wants to keep their children safe. And so if that flag has been waved in their face, then that's what they see.

And, yeah, that's what worries me, and that's what I'm trying to kind of, I suppose, call out, but also just say, be a bit more critical in what you see and what you read and what you hear, and don't take things necessarily at face value. Ask questions.

And I encourage all parents and all clients, young and older, to ask their therapists what their views are and see whether they align with their own. I also have referrals or consultations with people who do want me to practice conversion therapy.

Josephine: 00:37:01

Really?

Jeanine: 00:37:02

They might not call it that, so. And I say that's not the way that I work. There are therapists out there who do work in that way. I am not one of them. We are not a good match.

Josephine: 00:37:13

Yeah, if you could. So this is like a. Probably a bit of a silly question, I don't know. But if you could make one change in how we support trans youth, what would it be?

Jeanine: 00:37:24

I think it's maybe what I said before. Treat them the same as we would treat any other young person with empathy, curiosity and respect.

Josephine: 00:37:37

Don't treat it as though it's sort of something different or.

Jeanine: 00:37:40

Yeah, exactly. It's not an issue. I. I have an issue with transgender issues. Yeah, it's not an issue. It's. It just is. I'm. I'm not a female issue. I'm female. Yeah.

So a heterosexual woman. It's not an issue. If it's an issue to somebody else, that's their. Not my issue.

Josephine: 00:38:02

Yeah. Yeah, I love that.

Jeanine: 00:38:05

Whose issue is it? That's the question.

Josephine: 00:38:09

Oh, so it's just sort of like more of a reflective question coming up. Do you think your own understanding of adolescence has evolved in the time that you've been working with your children, young people?

Jeanine: 00:38:22

Yeah, I suppose it's had to, because the world has evolved. It's. We. It's a very, very different world now than it was 25 years ago when I first started out.

And doing the work and doing ongoing CPD has enabled me to kind of grow with the times, I suppose, and. And keep in touch with what's happening. I think we can't stand still young people.

I may be working with the same age groups that I've always worked with, but they're not the same kind of young people as. As they were 25 years ago. It's a different world. That they live in. And so, yeah, my work has had to evolve in line with that.

Josephine: 00:39:08

So how would you say that different young people now to what they were?

Jeanine: 00:39:12

I think they are much more savvy. I think they are much more. On the whole, we shouldn't really generalize, but on the whole, I think they're more emotionally literate.

I think they're more aware of social and political and cultural and environmental issues. I think they are more aware of their own and other people's mental health and ill health. More able to ask for help when they need it.

The problem is the help isn't always there, but they're able to recognize that they need it and ask in a way that wasn't the case before. I think I am seeing more extremes and that is in part because of the. The comparison, the surveillance.

Young people are under surveillance all of the time now, partly because of social media, of course, but also, you know, if we just think about schools and education, they now have to stay in education for longer than they used to have to. Most young people are expected to achieve so many GCSEs. Many young people go to university.

25 years ago, only the elite went to university or are expected to go to university. We keep extending the grade boundaries and the grade thresholds. So an A now isn't enough. It's got to be an A star.

So more pressure to be better and higher and bigger and all of those things. There's so much pressure, I think, yeah.

Josephine: 00:40:53

Do you think social media plays a part in that as well? I'm sort of thinking Instagram and the sort of false images maybe there.

Jeanine: 00:40:59

Yeah, because of comparison. It's. There's constant comparison between each other and there was less opportunity for that before. It's 24 7, isn't it?

Social media is 24 7, whereas before you could walk away and not it not be an issue anymore.

Josephine: 00:41:19

I think the thing that struck me though, about what you were saying about young people is it actually makes me feel quite hopeful in a way in that I think, you know, there's all this stuff you see about snowflakes and the woke and blah, blah, blah, but actually it really makes me feel quite hopeful because I think, especially when they say it's about Gen Z, is that they are really very thoughtful type of people. They are very, you know, environmentally away aware, for example. And that is a hopeful thing, isn't it?

And I mean my hope is that the, as the younger generation grow up and as they get into positions of power, because inevitably the older Ones are going to gradually give up power, and the younger ones are going to take over. That.

That actually will help us as a society to grow and be more accepting of diversity, for example, and more open to doing stuff about climate change, because obviously we need to. So. And I sort of feel quite proud, actually, to be the parents of young people who are like that, you know, because I do have hope for them.

fficult issues, like you said: 2025

Jeanine: 00:42:38

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I don't know. A young person. What am I calling young, let's say under 25. Who would even.

It would even be in their vocabulary to talk about transgender issues or LGBT issues. It's not an issue to them. It's just life. You know, some people are gay, some people are straight, some people are trans, Some people assist.

It is not an issue to most Gen Zs at all. At all. It just. It's just life. And. And the same with. With all different intersectionalities. It's not an issue. Diversity is something that is accepted.

I think the. The. The phobias and the isms are. Are the older generations doing. On the whole, I'm generalizing, but on the who. Yeah.

Josephine: 00:43:30

Which is interesting, you know, bringing in what we were talking about, the manosphere and those sorts of negative influences that we were talking about. But on the whole, you would say that wasn't what you're experiencing. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So just. Just in closing, what.

What's something that really makes you laugh when you're working with teenagers?

Jeanine: 00:43:49

Oh, gosh. The thing that comes to mind is the thing that I love, which sometimes does make me laugh, is that on the whole, again, I'm generalizing.

They are more open than adults. So I mostly work with adolescents and young adults, and they are. They are. On the whole, they just say what they think they say it is.

And they don't worry about the language or the vocabulary or the swearing or the political correctness or not of it or the wokeness of it. They just say it. And.

And they, on the whole, are very keen observers of life and, you know, life within their homes and within their wider environments, school and work environments. And. And that makes me laugh and makes me hopeful and keeps me doing what I do because it also kind of frees me up to. To speak in the same way.

And you know, my sweary title book books are kind of a reflection of that because that's, that's how young people talk to me in a therapy room.

Josephine: 00:44:55

Yeah.

Jeanine: 00:44:56

They, they say what they think and that kind of gives me permission to say what I think as well.

Josephine: 00:45:01

Fantastic. Yeah. And is there one phrase that you would find yourself saying a lot in therapy?

Jeanine: 00:45:07

I try not to have stock phrases, but I suppose I do wonder a lot.

Josephine: 00:45:15

That's one of mine.

Jeanine: 00:45:17

Wonder about something or be curious. Oh, that makes me curious about that. Or can you help me to understand is another one. Those kinds of op. Trying to open things up type phrases.

I suppose I use them quite a lot.

Josephine: 00:45:33

Yeah. Yeah. And have you had a memorable piece of advice from a teenager?

Jeanine: 00:45:40

Stop nodding.

Josephine: 00:45:43

It was so funny.

Jeanine: 00:45:47

More than once to me. Yeah.

Josephine: 00:45:51

It's very difficult to stop every nodding though, isn't it? And is there one thing that you love working, one thing about working with adolescents that you love?

Jeanine: 00:46:01

I love all of it. I, I love that. I love the diversity. I'm all. I'm always surprised. There's always a surprise every day. I never know really what's coming.

Even with a long term client. They will surprise me and catch me off guard. I like the challenge. I like that I'm kind of kept on my toes.

Josephine: 00:46:25

It's very vital work as well, isn't it? Because you're seeing them at the sort of start of their lives, really.

Jeanine: 00:46:31

Yeah. Yeah.

Josephine: 00:46:32

And certainly when I've worked with young people, the thing that I found really noticeable is, is how quickly they can change as well, because it's almost like they're not so set in their ways, are they?

Jeanine: 00:46:41

And they, they're in the process of change. Adolescence is a, is a whole period of transition, isn't it? So they're, they're kind of primed for that.

They're the ideal candidates for therapy and they're in that existential kind of mindset and questioning everything. I love all of that. Those philosophical debates about what is the point of us and what is. What is the world all about.

I love getting into those kinds of conversations with young people. Yeah. And, and it's incredibly rewarding work.

It feels like an absolute privilege to work with every single client who I do that they trust me with their really intimate personal thoughts and feelings and experiences and trust me to help them to understand it and to help them move through it to the next part of their lives.

Josephine: 00:47:36

Yeah. Fantastic. Well, thank you, Janine. It's been so. I'm sure we could go on talking for hours, actually, couldn't we?

Jeanine: 00:47:41

Yeah, we could.

Josephine: 00:47:43

So I always ask people, what's the best way for therapists to be able to find you online? Would it be LinkedIn or other. Other social media?

Jeanine: 00:47:51

No, LinkedIn is the only social media platform that I use for work. So that's there. Yeah, the link to my website is on my social media.

Josephine: 00:47:59

Brilliant. So I'll put that in the show notes so that people can find you. So thank you so much for coming along. I really appreciate it.

It's been great and just lots and lots to talk about.

Jeanine: 00:48:10

Yeah, I love talking to you, Josephine. Thank you so much for inviting me on.

Josephine: 00:48:13

Thank you. Thanks for listening. Do come and join my Facebook community. Good enough. Counsellors.

And for more information about how I can help you develop your private practice, please Visit my website, JosephineHughes.com if you found this episode helpful, I'd to like, love it if you could share it with a fellow therapist or leave a review on your podcast app. And in closing, I'd love to remind you that every single step you make gets you closer to your dream. I really believe you can do it, Sam.