The wonderful Dr Susan Dray shares her journey from obtaining a PhD in experimental and physiological psychology at UCLA to becoming a pivotal figure in the field of Human-Computer Interaction (HCI). Susan recounts her transition from academia to industry, including roles at Honeywell and American Express, and her eventual shift to independent consulting. She discusses the evolution of HCI and human factors, the significance of ethnographic studies, and the importance of listening with one's heart in diverse cultural contexts. Susan also reflects on the birth of SIGCHI, organizational challenges, and her expansive international work. Her insights provide a rich, historical perspective on the ongoing interplay between technology, human behavior, and organizational dynamics, and on the contextual and cultural nuances in technology adoption. She also demonstrates the power of curiosity, self reflection and a service mindset. 

Overview

00:29 Episode Introduction

02:49 Susan's Background

03:52 Transition from Academia to Industry

05:37 Early Challenges at Honeywell

06:56 Gaithersburg Conference and SIGCHI Formation

10:15 Human Factors and Computing Systems

13:34 Human Technology Impacts at Honeywell

16:40 The Mindset of a Scientist

22:59 Mentorship and Career Advice

26:30 Career Transitions and Reflections

28:06 Early Challenges in Consulting

30:12 Setting Up a Consulting Business

31:59 International Projects and Usability Studies

38:22 Navigating Cultural Differences and Lessons in Challenges

45:24 Innovative Research in Korea and South Africa

49:26 Embracing Discomfort Curiousity and Self Reflection

52:17 Wrap up

Related Links

Susan Dray webpage  and LinkedIn

ACM SIGCHI Special Interest Group On Computer-Human Interaction

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick, and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas, and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Susan: Well, my favorite word

is the word interstices.

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The space between.

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And that's where our

profession should live.

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Doesn't always.

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And that's definitely the space I live in.

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It's like this big web, so

you are and aren't part of all

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these different constituencies.

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It's really interesting.

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Geri Fitz: That's the voice of Susan Dray.

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And she is really interesting

and has had a really interesting

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career journey that she reflects on

here so deeply and so generously.

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Susan is one of the most senior

and respected and well loved

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people in our particular field

of human computer interaction.

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But what she has to share isn't

just specific to this field.

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Because the way she talks about the

different career transitions that she's

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made from academia and her experimental

physiological psychology background

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at UCLA to how she happened to work in

industry and then eventually moving to

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her own independent consulting work.

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The way that she discusses navigating

those challenges and finding her

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role in each of those place has

lessons, I think, for all of us,

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regardless of the field that we're in.

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And Susan is a just such a reflective

person that I can't even begin to

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summarize all the different themes that

we covered or point to some of the things

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that you hopefully will find useful.

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But you can just hear throughout

the quality of the person that she

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is, that she brings to all her work.

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That the rich care and reflection,

the way she talks about listening and

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empathy and curiosity and, and just her.

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Generosity and that is, so Susan.

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We ended up talking for a long

time, so I've decided to split

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this conversation into two.

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So this is part one that's mainly

focusing on her career path and, and her

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reflections and lessons along the way.

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I really hope you find this interesting.

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Susan Dray, I am so excited

to be talking to you today.

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It's such a pleasure.

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You've been on my list of

people that I want to talk to

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for a long time, so welcome.

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Susan: Well, thank you so much.

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I'm excited to be here.

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Yeah.

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This is excellent.

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I've wanted to have the kind of in-depth

conversation that I think we're gonna

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have today with you at, you know, forever.

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Yeah.

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You're just that sort of person, you know.

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Geri Fitz: Thank you.

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And, for people who don't know you do

you want to give a little bit of a

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short introduction to your background?

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Susan: Sure.

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Well, so I went to graduate school at

UCLA and I got my PhD in, one could

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say experimental psychology, or one

could say physiological psychology.

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They're both right.

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And, um, physiological psych may

seem like a stretch to HCI, but

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it really isn't because basically

I was studying the relationship

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between the brain and behavior.

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So I had to do a ton of

observation, naturalistic

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observation of animal behavior.

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And, but as I got to the end of my

time in grad school, I realized that

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in physio at that time, there were no

jobs in academia other than postdocs.

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And I really wanted to

get on with my life.

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Geri Fitz: So I'm curious,

why did you think that doing a

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postdoc wasn't having a life?

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Susan: Well, because, well, I'd

heard horror stories, but also I

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didn't, I didn't want to be in an

apprenticeship position for 10, 20 years.

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And at that time, the profession was

very young, so all of the academics in

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that field were also very young, so they

weren't going to be leaving anytime soon.

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And so it was sort of like, well, what do

we do plus, so then I decided, okay, I'm

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gonna leap out of the nest into industry.

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And it really did feel like

a leap out of the nest.

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It was so scary.

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Oh, man.

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But I was part of a, a thing at UCLA and

we were talking about leaving academia,

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this small little group, and a job was

posted at Honeywell and the person there

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said, well, this sounds kind of like you,

you know, it has people in it, you know.

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It wasn't HCI, it was human factors.

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Mm-hmm.

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HCI didn't exist.

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Yeah.

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I graduated in 1980.

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This was in 79 when I was doing this.

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Yeah.

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So I went and I interviewed and I got

the job and, boy, was that an eyeopener?

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I was working in man machine sciences.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: With a whole bunch of

psychologists, lovely, lovely people.

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But this girl, and that's

how they saw me as a girl,

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Geri Fitz: Uhhuh.

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Susan: So

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Geri Fitz: And were you bringing,

like this girl, was this girl asking

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different questions or wanting to

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Susan: Oh, definitely

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Geri Fitz: do different things?

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Susan: Yeah, definitely.

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Um, so I was asking really different

questions and I became an annoyance

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to them because I kept asking

these questions about, well, how

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are, how are people using that?

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You know?

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And they were going,

shut up, you bother me?

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And, and when the, carpal tunnel.

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Explosion.

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The kangaroo paw hysteria, in

Australia started to show its rear

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its ugly head, since the secretaries

were the ones with the problems, and

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they were women, and I was a girl,

so I was the one to take care of it.

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Well, the problem was they were

trying to do word processing on

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a 32 70, you know, IBM mainframe,

which is a really stupid idea.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: But, you know, so I, I

did, I dabbled in ergonomics.

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I, uh, but then when the Gaithersburg

conference, uh, information was

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posted, I went, I wanna go to that.

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And so I was one of the

hordes at Gaithersburg.

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Geri Fitz: And can you explain

the Gaithersburg Well, actually,

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. Before we get there, I, I don't

know anything about the kangaroo

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poor thingy that you were saying?

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Oh,

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Susan: oh, oh.

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So in the early eighties,

yeah, secretaries, people who

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were mostly secretaries started

reporting carpal tunnel problems.

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They started having all kinds of

carpal tunnel problems with their,

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you know, and, . But there was a

really important organizational piece

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too that tended to get overlooked,

which I really delved into a lot.

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Which annoyed people.

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But anyway.

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So for instance, the person who used

to be able to schedule this special

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conference room and she was the

gatekeeper and only she could schedule

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it now, anybody could schedule it.

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So she lost standing.

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So there was this whole organizational.

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So the young, younger people who had

more keyboard experience to that point,

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they were the ones who were getting ahead

and the, you know, the previous Scion of

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Yeah the secretarial pool was out lot.

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Yeah, exactly.

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Geri Fitz: And, and, status

and authority challenge.

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Susan: Exactly.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: Mm-hmm.

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Geri Fitz: All of these really

interesting unintended or unanticipated

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consequences when people only

take sort of this narrow Yes.

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Technocentric view.

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Susan: Absolutely.

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And that was the absolute

only view in those days.

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Yeah.

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We had a waterfall method

of software development.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Susan: Where setting the system

requirements is step one and doing the

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user interface is step seven, you know,

or how, whatever, however many there

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are in your, um, waterfall method.

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So

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. Geri Fitz: Do you, do you think,

I mean, I guess I'm thinking,

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is that still happening now?

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You're talking about early eighties

and here we are mid twenties and

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it just, doesn't it feel like

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Susan: Yeah,

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Geri Fitz: We're still

learning that lesson?

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Susan: Yes, indeed.

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Yes, indeed.

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We still are learning that lesson

big time, and we learn it in

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different ways, in different places.

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Um, so in Africa it's a different set of

circumstances, a different set of, well,

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it's primarily cell phone technology,

et cetera, and it's different in.

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You know, Canada or the US

wherever, but yeah, exactly.

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Same old, same old.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Susan: You know.

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Geri Fitz: And with this whole trend

towards AI as well, it also feels like

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the early days of something new, like

a new wave of technology is when we get

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particularly blinded to Exactly, you know,

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Susan: exactly.

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Geri Fitz: The, the broader context and

the people issues and the organizational

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issues that the piece of technology has

to fit into, or disrupts or whatever.

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Susan: So at the time I was at

Honeywell, I was primarily in the,

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what was then the human factor society.

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Mm-hmm.

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Now human factors and ergonomics society.

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And I was chair of the computer

systems tech group, but then also,

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um, was part of the organizational

design and management group, or ODAM.

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We loved that.

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Geri Fitz: But what a good name.

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Susan: Yeah.

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Wasn't it great.

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ODAM.

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Um, and you know, that group

is still going strong and you

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know, I was real involved in all

of that organizational stuff.

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It seemed to me that, you know, we

had started with the very physical,

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like ergonomics and then we moved

into the cognitive and then we moved

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into the organizational, and then we

moved into the cultural and societal.

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So it's kind of this opening up,

um, and you have to make it your

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difference wherever you can make it.

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Yeah.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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And that'll be different

at different times too.

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Geri Fitz: Yeah.

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Yeah, The Gaithersburg,

what was that about?

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That you were Ah,

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Susan: yes.

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Um, so the Gaithersburg conference.

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Geri Fitz: Gaither Gaithersburg.

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Gaithersburg.

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Susan: Yeah.

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And Human factors and computing systems.

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That was the first, specifically Human

Factors and computing systems conference.

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There had been pieces, you know, we

had the computer systems tech group

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had stuff at HFES and there were other,

but that was the first one that was

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like this big interdisciplinary thing

that, you know, where they expected a

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small number and a huge number came.

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Geri Fitz: Hmm.

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Susan: And it was after the first

day of that conference that a bunch

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of us from different organizations,

uh, got together and said, we can't

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let the spirit of Gaithersburg die.

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And so we got together in the

evening and formed SIGCHI.

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Geri Fitz: Wow.

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Susan: Yeah.

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Geri Fitz: And for those who don't

know, SIGCHI stands for Special Interest

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Group Computer Human Interaction.

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Susan: Yeah.

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And I wanted it to be, I wanted it

to be human computer interaction.

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Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

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Susan: But some Wisecracker who

will remain nameless, because I

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don't remember the name, um, said,

well then it would be SIG and that

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won't work, so we'll be SIGCHI.

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So it,

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Geri Fitz: it wasn't an argument

about computers first or trying to

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target particular audiences, but, uh,

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Susan: That's what they said.

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But this guy was a computer.

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Geri Fitz: Do you want a

hiccup or do you want a CHI?

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Susan: That's right.

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Geri Fitz: That's interesting.

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Susan: Yeah, it was.

236

Geri Fitz: So, I want come back to

SIGCHI because it also connects to

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something I'd want to talk to you

about, about your incredible heart for

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service, which you've done from those,

239

So you were at Honeywell and,

and like at Honeywell being this

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strange person who kept saying 'Yes,

but, and what about the people?'

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Susan: Yeah.

242

Geri Fitz: Finding a little bit of a

community at the Gaithersburg thing.

243

Right?

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Right.

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And continuing at Honeywell, like

did that change your work back?

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Susan: Well, I changed into a new role.

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I moved into a new role in corporate

information management where I was the

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director of human technology impacts.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And during that time, the then CEO

of, of Honeywell at Spencer had one

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of those moments that CEOs often have

when they're shaving in the morning and

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he was thinking, Hmm, I wonder we're

bringing in this new voicemail system.

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That's how old this is, this old

voicemail system, new voicemail system.

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Geri Fitz: Mm.

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Susan: And I, but I don't want it

to disrupt the culture of Honeywell

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because Honeywell has a really, had a

really strong culture in those days.

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Not so much anymore.

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But anyway, and so he was wondering

what's the impact of technology on

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corporate culture, which was a very,

very good question and very definitely

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a question that he should ask.

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But of course, it rolled downhill to

the woman who was the vice president for

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information systems and the head of HR.

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And then it rolled downhill from them

into my lap and into the lap of an HR

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guy who basically didn't do a whole lot.

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So I spent four or five months

interviewing everybody I could think of.

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We chartered a specific study.

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I don't remember what it was about

exactly, but um, and then we tried

269

to synthesize it and we came up

with like five, these are the

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five big things to be aware of.

271

The only one I really remember,

which is probably an indicative of,

272

of what was really important was

that technology gives the means, but

273

values determine what choices you make.

274

Mm.

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So, and, and that's still true, right?

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Geri Fitz: That's still really true.

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And I mean, that's something that

we should be putting up on a sticker

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on the walls to remind ourselves.

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Susan: Yeah, yeah.

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Yeah.

281

I, I was so honored to be able to do this

work, and it was, you know, at first I

282

thought there were good technologies and

bad technologies, but then I just, in

283

fact, I came across this the other day

when I was cleaning out an old hard drive.

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There's a picture of a

plant on a printer and

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it's like, because I thought,

you know, printers are good.

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Susan: Well, obviously

not in that setting.

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They weren't good because

it's a plant stand.

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Geri Fitz: It had, it had a plant on.

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It was a good plant holder.

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Susan: Yeah, exactly.

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Got a little dicey when

they overwatered it, but,

292

Geri Fitz: yeah.

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So something I'm curious

about there as well mm-hmm.

294

Is.

295

You talked about doing a PhD in more

experimental psychology or physiology.

296

So they were your core skill sets,

but you've just talked about this,

297

going around and talking to people and

interviewing people and diverse people.

298

Susan: Well, so the mindset of

an experimental psychologist

299

is the mindset of a scientist.

300

And so I approached things, you know,

looking at them scientifically, but

301

I had been so imbued throughout my

career with listening, skilled, active

302

listening and with service and with, just

trying to be open to new experiences.

303

And that had to do with

personal, you know, stuff.

304

But I had basically.

305

Gotten to a point where the only way I,

I knew that the only way I could find out

306

about a lot of this stuff was to talk to

people, but it's not enough to see what

307

they say.

308

Because you

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Susan: also have to

see what they're doing.

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And those are often not the same.

311

Geri Fitz: Not the same.

312

Susan: Not the same.

313

And uh, but you have to capture

both because they're both important.

314

And then you have to

kind of synthesize it.

315

Well, the synthesis and the way you're

looking at it and the synthesis.

316

That's all scientific method.

317

Mm.

318

Um, and then it's just, this is

a skillset that you have to have.

319

Well, okay.

320

Develop it.

321

Geri Fitz: But it still sounds like

it was quite a radical, innovative

322

way of thinking that brought together

this scientific mindset and something

323

fundamental about you and your

people skills or people orientation.

324

Susan: Yeah, I guess, I mean, I didn't

think of it that way at the time because

325

I was just, you know, like the duck

kind of was doing go as fast as I could,

326

but, but thinking back on it, yeah,

it was, it was a very yeasty time.

327

A lot of, a lot of growth,

a lot of new things.

328

A lot of, I mean, I was in, I had been

in academia, I'm now in the military

329

industrial complex, and I'm a pacifist.

330

How does that work?

331

You know,

332

Geri Fitz: I forgot that

that's Honeywell's background.

333

Susan: I was working in the

field, the part of Honeywell

334

that was doing defense contracts.

335

So the biggest contract I was on was

called the Standoff Target Acquisition

336

System, or SOTAS.

337

Everything

338

Susan: has an acronym in the Army.

339

Mm-hmm.

340

Or in the military.

341

And so for that one, I said, we got

the manuals, I got, they, they had

342

written other people in Honeywell, in

the department had written the manuals.

343

And I said, well, you know,

let's, let me just look at these.

344

And so I ran a reading analysis and

they were written at the 17 grade level.

345

Of

346

course they're PhDs.

347

And

348

Susan: they thought they

were like toning it down.

349

Well the guys

350

who were going to be in the

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Susan: trailers using this

read at a sixth grade level.

352

So it's like, okay guys.

353

What

354

are we going to do with this?

355

Susan: You know?

356

And then of course there wasn't

AI and there wasn't an easy

357

way to go about doing this.

358

I mean, literally there weren't

even computers holding it in memory.

359

It had to all be retyped.

360

So it was, again, why

are you bringing this up?

361

Well, I'm bringing this up because I think

you want your thing to succeed, don't you?

362

Geri Fitz: Mm.

363

Yeah.

364

Susan: But, so it was really fascinating.

365

We did a study with bringing guys in

who would've would be operators and

366

running a simulation of the system

and then trying to see how they

367

could make sense of the radar returns.

368

Because basically this is a helicopter

sitting up behind the enemy lines,

369

looking at the enemy, across the enemy

lines, and trying to figure out where.

370

You know, fuel dumps and where

are, you know, where are the

371

troops and all this kind of stuff.

372

I mean, it's so easy now you

don't even have to think about it.

373

Right.

374

But in those days it

was not, it was, yeah.

375

Very.

376

Okay.

377

Geri Fitz: I think there's still lots

of experiences that people would report

378

where there are similar patterns that

are still repeating in that same thing.

379

Mm-hmm.

380

So you said earlier that the

scary thing of going into

381

industry did scary play out?

382

Susan: Oh, yes, yes, yes.

383

If Honeywell hadn't paid for

my move, I would've left Uhhuh.

384

I couldn't afford to pay for

the move to repay them, and you

385

had to be there at least a year.

386

Geri Fitz: And so what was scary?

387

Susan: Well, so it was this.

388

I was new in this area.

389

I was new in the

organization in Honeywell.

390

I was

391

new in man-machine sciences.

392

Susan: I had been hired by the manager

who left the day after I arrived.

393

And I found out my supervisor

didn't want me there.

394

And he said, you know, basically you

were only hired because of EEO,

395

so basically, I don't care you

396

Geri Fitz: being equal opportunities.

397

Susan: Yeah.

398

Sorry, yes.

399

Equal opportunity.

400

Yeah.

401

It was a diversity hire is

how they would say it today.

402

Yeah.

403

And.

404

That kind of made me, I wasn't going

in with the highest confidence level

405

in the world because of all the change.

406

Plus unfortunately, my now spouse of

45 years, if you can believe it or not,

407

was still doing an internship in LA.

408

So we were separated for the first

six months and, so it was all this

409

stuff going on and these were all,

psychologists are really good at trying

410

to hide their bias, but they can't

really, 'cause nobody really can.

411

Mm.

412

Susan: It was coming

out all over the place.

413

Yeah.

414

Anyway, it was a long time ago, but

conditions were really, really different.

415

I was the first PhD level

woman in man machine sciences.

416

Well, there was one other woman before

me, and she married the CEO e so I sort

417

of thought that wasn't my career path.

418

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

419

You obviously found your place there

because you stayed there nine years.

420

Susan: Yeah.

421

Eight, eight and a half.

422

Yeah.

423

Something like that.

424

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

425

Susan: Yeah.

426

I, I did, I had a wonderful mentor there.

427

Irma Wyman, who was the head of

corporate information management,

428

basically ran the IT systems for

the corporation, well for corporate.

429

And she was amazing.

430

She was a single woman, never married,

she wore no nonsense shoes with big crepe

431

soles that squeaked wherever she went.

432

She wore ill-fitting suits.

433

And, but she was brilliant.

434

She got an engineering degree

from, I think it was the University

435

of Michigan in the sixties.

436

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

437

Susan: You know, one of

like two women in her class.

438

So she was really quite remarkable.

439

You had to be remarkable in those days.

440

Days you would've.

441

Geri Fitz: Yes.

442

You would've had to have been.

443

Yeah.

444

Susan: Yeah.

445

So I was terrified of her, but because,

you know, authority and all this, but

446

she had me in periodically to just talk

about my career and the thing that she

447

said, which I thought was the possibly

the best advice she ever gave me.

448

She said, you have to have a career plan.

449

You have to think about what you

wanna do, but you have to be willing

450

to jump, drop it at a moment's notice

if something better comes along.

451

Mm-hmm.

452

Something that takes you

in a different direction.

453

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

454

Susan: I thought that was very, very wise.

455

Mm.

456

Um.

457

Geri Fitz: So she initiated the

whole thing around the mentoring.

458

You didn't ask her to mentor you?

459

Susan: I didn't ask her directly.

460

I think my boss asked her.

461

Yeah.

462

Um, he reported to her.

463

Geri Fitz: But still she did it.

464

And that what a precious gift.

465

Susan: Yeah.

466

Oh, absolutely.

467

Absolutely.

468

I've had not a lot of mentors

in my life, but she was like

469

the total, total package there.

470

She wasn't like warm and fuzzy.

471

Our personality styles were about

as different as you could be.

472

But she listened and she had suggestions

and they'd be 15 minute meetings.

473

Mm-hmm.

474

You know, crammed or one way she was

walking from one place to another.

475

Yeah.

476

But that's fine, when you get wise

477

Geri Fitz: advice, so That's right.

478

What, what career plan did you have in

mind then on the basis of her advice?

479

Susan: Oh boy.

480

I don't, I don't really remember.

481

I really loved my first boss in corporate

information management, and it was

482

under Rich that I did the Spencer study

and, you know, was doing a whole bunch

483

of things that I loved doing, and I

prioritized service as well because.

484

That was the way I was keeping in touch

with what was going on in the field.

485

And plus, you know, it was fun.

486

But then I got a boss who, whose

comment about Bach was, well, you

487

know, he just, he, he overdoes it, you

know, too many notes kind of thing.

488

And like, uh, I'm a Bach aficionado,

so that did not sit right.

489

But that was his kind of

attitude about everything.

490

It was like smaller,

smaller, smaller, smaller.

491

And it became very clear that

I just could not, I was never

492

gonna thrive in that environment.

493

Mm-hmm.

494

And luckily another opportunity

came along at American Express and

495

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

496

Susan: You know, there was that.

497

Geri Fitz: That's interesting

how you get to a point.

498

Where you just, it's not right.

499

I, I'm really interested in people's

decision points about those transitions

500

You have that a lot of the conversations

I've had recently, or it feels like

501

there's been lots of really interesting

transitions and whether it's to

502

doing something very different or

whether it's, as you just described,

503

them moving, saying I've enough here

somewhere else in the same sort of work.

504

Susan: Yeah.

505

Yeah.

506

I, that definitely the way it's been.

507

And in the mean, in reality it was also

partly that things were closing down

508

for me, that they were no longer viable.

509

And so I had to get out and that's

how I felt when I left American

510

Express to go out on my own.

511

Mm-hmm.

512

I'd had like five bosses in one

year and it was total turmoil

513

and, ultimately they didn't really

care about what what I was doing.

514

Yeah.

515

I was tooting this horn and trying

to, so I finally said got to do it.

516

Geri Fitz: That's what, what was

that decision like because, the

517

scary going from postdoc to industry,

what was it like going from a salary

518

job to setting up your own company?

519

Susan: Well, I say that was sheer terror.

520

Geri Fitz: So scary was easy.

521

And this is terror.

522

Susan: Yeah.

523

That made it all look.

524

Yeah.

525

There were, at the time about

five consultants in the field.

526

Deborah May, she was the first.

527

There were four of us were women.

528

So, that kind of gives you a,

an idea of, so it was terrifying.

529

I mean, because I had had to learn how

do you present this field to people who

530

have never thought about it in their life.

531

Yeah.

532

And, and for whom it seems very esoteric.

533

Yeah.

534

So in the beginning, well

actually Arne Lund saved me.

535

I was, we were getting to a point,

I think I was about six months in

536

and nothing, I hadn't gotten a job

yet a, a consulting gig and I was

537

really scared, and we were starting

to get to a point where we couldn't

538

really afford this a whole lot longer.

539

Yeah.

540

Yeah.

541

So I interviewed for a job at Bell

Labs, which is in New Jersey, and

542

I lived in Minnesota and that's a

big distance between, and I got the

543

job and I had to give them yes or no

by, the way I'm remembering, it is

544

probably not exactly the way it was.

545

Yeah.

546

But the way I remember it was by

five o'clock on Friday afternoon.

547

Yeah.

548

And at four o'clock, Arne

called and said, say, what would

549

you think about doing this?

550

And it's like, oh, thank you.

551

So that's why I'm

552

Geri Fitz: And doing this was what?

553

Susan: It was a usability evaluation

of some queuing systems for phones.

554

Mm-hmm.

555

And I had done a bunch of work on

queuing for this SOTAS project.

556

So I mean, I was very familiar with, you

know, attention and blah, blah, blah.

557

So.

558

Geri Fitz: Just in time.

559

Susan: Just in time.

560

Yes.

561

Geri Fitz: Interesting too, the

way that sort of thing can happen.

562

When you set up your own consulting, what

were the parameters you gave yourself?

563

Like I know that you said you were,

it's getting to the point where you

564

couldn't afford it for much longer.

565

Had you pre-thought give it a try

for 12 months or what were there any

566

Susan: No, it was, much

more instinctual, I think.

567

Mm-hmm.

568

It was just a sense of I've

got to get out of this.

569

Mm.

570

So, and at that point, because of the

work that I'd done in service to both

571

SIGCHI and HFES at that time, my

name was known, so I thought, well,

572

I've got the name recognition now, so

of course that was name recognition

573

within my own field, which I sort

of didn't factor in, but, you know.

574

Yeah.

575

We live and learn.

576

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

577

What was it about doing your own thing

that made it more attractive than

578

looking for another job somewhere else?

579

Susan: Well, it was partly that there

were no other jobs in the Twin Cities.

580

Oh, okay.

581

That definitely played into it.

582

Yeah.

583

It was a tough time.

584

I mean, there were, it wasn't an opening

up of, of the field at that time.

585

And, it's hard to really remember

back then what I was thinking because,

586

I don't know, I think I was just so

scared at that point that I wasn't

587

going to be able to do something.

588

And I talked a lot with Deborah

and other, the other consultants.

589

Pat Billingsley was another one, Carol

Klyver and I had long conversations.

590

And if you'd been around, I

would've had conversations with you.

591

If I had known you then.

592

But, you know, so it was like

little by little feeling your way.

593

Mm.

594

And then figuring out what

way was going to work for me.

595

Yes.

596

And so when I was working on a

project for Debbie Mrazek at, at,

597

uh, Hewlett Packard, we were looking

at, um, well, they had a, they

598

had a problem that was showing up.

599

It was a quality problem.

600

So inkjet printing, the way that it picks

up paper, they have rollers that, you

601

know, you've probably had a paper jam

and you've seen those rollers, right?

602

Yeah.

603

Well, those rollers, what I didn't

know was among many other things

604

was that there's light, light

talc between the different sheets

605

so that it keeps them separate.

606

And what was happening there was

a quality defect with the rubber.

607

They changed rubber manufacturer, and

there was a defect that, that meant

608

it, it bonded to the talc very quickly

and therefore it wouldn't pick up.

609

And so we realized that we had,

they had to come up with a solution.

610

Well, they came up with this really

kind of cool solution, where they,

611

they had this big thing that looked like

a Brillo pad, you know, a scrubby pad

612

on a spring that you put underneath.

613

You took off the paper tray and then

you put this underneath the rollers,

614

and then they had a floppy disc.

615

This is back then that you put into the

computer to take control of the rollers

616

for 15 minutes so that they would go.

617

And so we were, we had to

test it in Germany and we did

618

it in France, both places.

619

We were also doing family

visits at that time.

620

So we did usability evaluations of

this thing during the day, which by

621

the way, people saw it as a benefit.

622

It's like, oh, well that's awfully nice.

623

Turn your quality problem

into a, into a positive thing.

624

But then we also then did, at

night, we did family visits.

625

Becasue we'd done family visits in the US.

626

Mm.

627

That was, I think that was the

first commercial ethnographic study.

628

It certainly was the

first in Hewlett Packard.

629

It was, if it wasn't the first, it

was one of the first where we, you

630

know, spent four hours Yeah with

people just hanging out, seeing

631

how they were using their printer.

632

And they'd always say, I do

not understand how we can talk

633

about printers for four hours.

634

We can't either.

635

And then we would, we do.

636

Yeah.

637

Geri Fitz: I love the

evolution of your skillset.

638

You've got a problem.

639

And you evolve your skillset

to address the problem at hand.

640

Susan: Exactly.

641

Absolutely.

642

Mm-hmm.

643

Yeah.

644

Yeah.

645

So, so that meant that was

my first international.

646

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

647

Susan: Well, first international

as a consultant, I'd done

648

international stuff for Honeywell.

649

I've done teaching, I taught about

human factors in three locations.

650

And, big deal.

651

I mean, in, in retrospect it doesn't

feel like it was such a big deal,

652

but at the time it was pretty scary.

653

Hmm.

654

Just because I'd never done

that, you know, and I'd never

655

done that in the US either.

656

'cause I wasn't an academic, right?

657

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

658

Susan: But people in the industry

always thought of me as an academic

659

and people in academia always thought

of me as a person in industry.

660

Yeah.

661

So it's kind of like, well,

662

Geri Fitz: Do you think that's

still the case in general?

663

Susan: Probably, yeah.

664

I think, I don't know.

665

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

666

Susan: I don't know.

667

I mean.

668

Geri Fitz: Interesting.

669

In between roles in a way.

670

Bridging roles.

671

Susan: Yes.

672

Well, my favorite word is

the word inter interstices.

673

Mm.

674

The space between.

675

Yeah.

676

And that's, that's where

our profession should live.

677

Doesn't always.

678

Yeah.

679

And that's definitely the space I live in.

680

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

681

Susan: I'm in that

interstitial moment between.

682

Geri Fitz: And it's also pointing

to the different disciplines

683

that you can be in between or the

different sectors or Absolutely.

684

It is a really important

like that connecting.

685

Susan: Exactly.

686

It's like, like this big web, you know?

687

Yeah.

688

So you are and aren't part of all

these different constituencies.

689

It's really interesting.

690

Geri Fitz: Mm.

691

Susan: It could be frustrating.

692

Geri Fitz: And you were there at

the very birth of the SIGCHI peer

693

professional community, and that as

a community has always had, well,

694

especially from what you've said, people

from industry at the very beginning,

695

quite at the very beginning Yeah.

696

As well as people from academia.

697

Yeah.

698

So already it had this very mixed profile.

699

Right.

700

And it, it has always felt like

the community, I mean, sometimes,

701

I'd almost say for the misfits who

don't fit neatly in somewhere else.

702

Yeah.

703

Would you go to psychology conferences?

704

Susan: I don't.

705

It mostly has to do with time and money.

706

It was hard enough to carve

out time for HCI conferences.

707

Although I did go to like

the British HCI conferences.

708

I went to a number of those.

709

INTERACT lots of those.

710

I did a keynote at the International

Ergonomics Association in Sydney.

711

Yeah.

712

Wow.

713

It was great.

714

It was, uh, not throwing the

baby out with the bath water.

715

So it was talking about organizational

consulting and how we needed to

716

incorporate that and not just

throw it out when we kind of

717

said, we're going to do a thing.

718

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

719

Picking up on the

international thing as well.

720

Yeah.

721

You went on in your work.

722

I think of you as having quite

an international profile just

723

in terms of your work.

724

Like you've worked in

different countries and

725

Susan: 29 countries.

726

Yeah.

727

Geri Fitz: 29 countries in the end.

728

Yeah.

729

Susan: Every continent except Antarctica.

730

Still want to do that, but

don't think I ever will.

731

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

732

Susan: Penguins are not very good

usability evaluators, you know?

733

Geri Fitz: But there are

some humans down there.

734

But, that's true.

735

Talk, talk about some of the learnings

about, you know, you're American,

736

your training, your education

is within the American context.

737

Most of your work in the beginning

was in an American context.

738

Absolutely.

739

Maybe a bit internationally

with Honeywell, as you said,

740

but that's still within,

741

Susan: it's still yeah.

742

Geri Fitz: A uniform

organizational culture.

743

Susan: Right, right.

744

Geri Fitz: What were some

of the big challenges and

745

mindset changes and that to,

746

Susan: So most of the work

we did internationally was

747

for American companies.

748

Okay.

749

So part of it was translating

for these Americans to understand

750

what they were seeing and to

understand what the findings were.

751

So, for instance, in India,

people at that time anyway, I don't

752

know if this is still true, did

not install software themselves.

753

Somebody else would come to

their house and install software.

754

So we did us, I did a usability

evaluation with people from India

755

or people from Bangalore who we were

trying to have them install Windows 95.

756

That tells you how long ago this was, and

they just kept not being able to do it.

757

And at first I'm going,

what am I doing wrong?

758

And then it started to become clear.

759

Oh, duh.

760

And so I started asking them, who

does this normally in your household?

761

Well, you know, somebody comes

in, or my brother-in-law or,

762

or my husband or whatever.

763

It's never them, well, of course

they didn't understand how to do it.

764

It was clear if you knew about

installing software, but it

765

certainly wasn't clear if you didn't.

766

And, and the whole concept of installing

software was not something that they

767

were, that they really could grasp.

768

So it's like trying to help my client who

was saying, you're doing it wrong, you're

769

doing it wrong, you're doing it wrong.

770

To say to the people who were Yeah.

771

Say No, actually what's happening

is it doesn't work for them.

772

Geri Fitz: Which is a different

formulation, isn't it?

773

Susan: Absolutely.

774

Absolutely.

775

In one case, we were testing in

Russia, this new computer that, we

776

did a lot of work for the emerging

markets group that was looking at

777

the next billion users and all this,

and they developed this computer.

778

We won't go into the details.

779

But anyway.

780

We were in Russia for two weeks

in Samara, second tier city,

781

and it was so frustrating.

782

We were doing usability of a during

the day, but then we were wanted to go

783

and observe the out of box experience.

784

Well, the financial systems which were

supposed to be set up so that they lower

785

income people could use this because it

was basically kind of a rent a computer.

786

They weren't set up, so that didn't work.

787

Finally, we just liberated a machine

and took it and tried to do the install.

788

Had someone do the in,

you know, users do do it.

789

Total car crash, and it was partly the

user interface, but a lot of it had

790

to do with just like you, you have to

set up an account in russia online.

791

And then you have to link that account to

your Flexco account and link that to your

792

wireless or to your cell phone provider.

793

And it was like conceptually a nightmare.

794

Mm.

795

So we did this with one family, and

I'm going, and it took six hours

796

and we had the guy who actually

wrote the software there helping us.

797

Finally, it's like, we're gonna try to get

this thing installed one way or another.

798

Well, we couldn't.

799

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

800

Susan: So then we tried it

again with another family.

801

Same thing.

802

So that night I wrote an email

saying, you do not have a product.

803

Well that got the general

manager kind of in a tizz.

804

So the next morning I'm walking

along the Volga River and I get

805

this phone call and it's the head

of the business general manager.

806

And he is saying, what do you

mean we don't have a product?

807

I said, okay, well maybe I'm wrong.

808

Let me just tell you what happened.

809

And then I went through what

had happened and by the end he

810

went, oh, I guess you're right.

811

Mm.

812

So, it was speaking truth to

power is really scary sometimes.

813

Yeah.

814

There's a scary, a scary

framing to this whole thing.

815

Mm-hmm.

816

But in reality it's scary in retrospect.

817

And it was scary before I

got started doing things.

818

Mm-hmm.

819

But then once I was there.

820

It stopped being scary because it

started just being so fascinating.

821

Geri Fitz: Well, I was just

going to say, what I keep hearing

822

again and again and again is your

curiosity about what's going on.

823

Help me let me understand this and

824

Susan: Absolutely.

825

Geri Fitz: And that there's

something sort of transcendent of

826

culture and that that also Yeah.

827

Actually helps you hook into culture,

which is just that curiosity

828

and that people perspective, that

people orientation, you know?

829

Yeah.

830

What's it really like?

831

Susan: Well, and you know, I can't

avoid the fact that I'm an American.

832

Mm-hmm.

833

I, I would love to, I, I think of myself

as a citizen of the world, but that's

834

a citizen of the world with a whole

bunch of American baggage that comes.

835

So what I try to do before, or I did

before I would go to studies is I would

836

just immerse myself for as long as I had.

837

I would read history,

I would read fiction.

838

I would read, look at what was

going on in the current events.

839

I would look at the economy, I would

look at the whole picture and get

840

as much information as I possibly

could to try to understand based

841

on facts, scientific method.

842

But then when I went there, of

course, it's like that was all

843

really important background.

844

Geri Fitz: Mm.

845

Susan: But it wasn't enough because

what you have to do then is you

846

have to listen with your heart.

847

Mm.

848

You know, really deeply

listen with your heart.

849

And,

850

I have blinders like everybody does.

851

But I feel it's really important to kind

of expose those and to interrogate them.

852

And it's also out of those blinders

often that the big whoas come.

853

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

854

Susan: You know?

855

Yeah.

856

I have two examples I think

are really kind of cool.

857

One is a study we were doing in

Korea of a another HP printer.

858

And it was an installation, it

was an out of box experience.

859

And we're setting it up

in the usability lab.

860

I didn't just do usability obviously,

but this was what we were doing there.

861

And they said, well, do you

want us to, do you want 'em to

862

be able to do it on the floor

863

floor?

864

Tell me about that?

865

Where do people normally set

up their printers in Korea?

866

On the floor?

867

Okay, then let's make that possible.

868

Well, it turns out that the whole

design of the printer is for putting

869

it on a desk where all of the, all

the connections and things like

870

that are down at the bottom level.

871

So if you're trying to do it on the

floor, you're kind of upside down.

872

They had to re-engineer

the printer for Korea.

873

Geri Fitz: Mm.

874

Susan: Which was not easy.

875

Yeah.

876

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

877

Susan: And, and another one we were doing,

we did a really fascinating study where

878

we were looking at how people use cell

phones in the townships in South Africa.

879

And we went and visited, I don't know,

25 people and spent hours with them

880

trying to understand the premise.

881

This was for Microsoft and they

had the image that the people.

882

In, so, okay, sorry, let me step back.

883

The classic migration pattern, which

is the young people leave the village

884

to go to the city to make money, to

send back to the village Classic.

885

That happens everywhere, right?

886

And that was what's happening there.

887

So the families are in the Eastern

cape and the children are in, or adult

888

children are in Cape Town, which is

on the other side of the country.

889

We also had, they had an idea

that the people in the bush,

890

as they call it, were unbanked.

891

Well, they weren't unbanked.

892

They had bank accounts, but they'd have

to walk 20 miles to get to the bank.

893

And in the past, what people had

had to do was put the money into

894

an envelope and give it to a

mini bus driver who was driving.

895

And they were always getting robbed.

896

And sometimes the mini bus driver

wouldn't necessarily deliver it.

897

So it was a very chancey situation.

898

Um, so we were trying to figure

out, and, and they had an idea that

899

there might be some way that cell

phones could participate in this.

900

And in fact, about a year later,

M-Pesa came out in Kenya, which

901

is, you know, widely successful and

is kind of what they wanted to do.

902

But anyway, so we went to all these

people in Khayelitsha and then we

903

followed the families of three of them.

904

So we had all their

background information.

905

Then we went out to the Eastern Cape

and in the first village, we did our

906

walkabout and, all the stuff one does

when one does a visit to a rural village.

907

I mean, obviously you have to talk to the

headman first and all this kind of stuff.

908

We're over talking to this guy

who runs this little tiny store,

909

like two shelves and mm-hmm.

910

And, somebody came in for eggs

and he said, okay, 10 minutes.

911

What?

912

So however many minutes it was,

they paid him in cell phone minutes.

913

Oh.

914

So their kids transferred money

to them in cell phone minutes so

915

they could use that as currency.

916

It changes the whole

concept of what currency is.

917

Yeah.

918

It was so interesting.

919

And it was like, never

ever, ever saw that coming.

920

Geri Fitz: No.

921

Susan: You know.

922

Geri Fitz: No.

923

You're very self-reflective in the

whole practice, in the way you've talked

924

about being aware of the potential

blinders and also, again, that curiosity

925

that enables you to be surprised.

926

Yeah.

927

Because what you said, you don't

know, you've got the blinders until

928

Susan: Right.

929

Geri Fitz: They're exposed until, yes.

930

It's just the way stuff is.

931

Susan: Right.

932

Exactly.

933

Yeah.

934

And then you hit them and

935

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

936

Susan: And when you hit them, it can feel

like you're a failure in that moment.

937

And if you let that take over

your mindset at that point mm-hmm.

938

Then you miss the surprises.

939

And I've now learned that every

time I do a study, regardless of

940

where the first couple of people,

I'm gonna feel really stupid.

941

And that's okay.

942

And that's okay.

943

You know, learning to sit with

discomfort, I think is a really big deal.

944

And then when you're uncomfortable

listening deeply with your heart,

945

you know, really, really focusing

on understanding as much as you can.

946

Geri Fitz: Mm-hmm.

947

Susan: Which is , they

compete with each other.

948

You know, that's a struggle.

949

That's always a struggle.

950

Geri Fitz: Can you say more about that?

951

Susan: Well,

952

so in the beginning of, of

953

the township study, for instance,

we were trying to understand what

954

they did with money in general.

955

And.

956

I have a client with me.

957

I'm trying to create an experience

that's a good experience for her.

958

We are also working with a local vendor.

959

Of course, we never, ever

would do that on our own.

960

We worked with the local vendor.

961

They consulted on the screener

and they did the recruitment,

962

and then they went with us.

963

Mm.

964

And had a facilitator, and two

translators so that they could switch

965

off because we tried to, as much

as possible, use local language.

966

Not always possible, but Mm.

967

As much as possible.

968

And it was so hard in the beginning

to just relax enough and allow myself

969

to feel the discomfort and not just

react by going, ah, you know, just.

970

Use it as information.

971

Oh, this is, this is

important information here.

972

Yeah.

973

You're learning stuff that you

wouldn't be learning otherwise.

974

Geri Fitz: Yeah.

975

Susan: Um, and that's

why you're uncomfortable.

976

Yeah.

977

It's that discrepancy.

978

Geri Fitz: How would you talk to

someone about listening with your heart?

979

Because that sounds so key for lots

of things, not just doing field work.

980

And that's where I'm going to break it off

for today, and we'll pick up from here in

981

the next episode, which will be part two.

982

And don't you just love the way Susan

talks about listening, not just as

983

listening, but listening with heart.

984

And so we talk about that more in

part two, and also talk about her rich

985

experiences with mentorship as well

as some of her personal challenges

986

and struggles outside of work.

987

And again, like there's just

so much in the next episode.

988

So I really hope you are looking

forward to it as much as I'm looking

989

forward to getting it out there as well.

990

You can find the summary notes, a

transcript and related links for this

991

podcast on www.changingacademiclife.com.

992

You can also subscribe to Changing

Academic Life on iTunes, Spotify.

993

And I'm really hoping that we can

widen the conversation about how

994

we can do academia differently.

995

And you can contribute to this by rating

the podcast and also giving feedback.

996

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997

podcast with your colleagues.

998

Together we can make change happen.