In this episode of the Where Parents Talk podcast, host Lianne Castelino explores the profound impact of outdoor play with journalist and author, Linda Akeson McGurk.

The discussion delves into the Scandinavian philosophy of "friluftsliv," or open air living, and its benefits for children and families alike.

McGurk, an advocate for nature connection, and mother of two, shares how embracing the great outdoors can enhance physical, mental, and emotional health, while fostering resilience and independence in children.

The Swedish-American journalist references the alarming trends of indoor childhood activities and the resulting consequences on kids' well-being, including increased anxiety and decreased physical strength.

McGurk offers practical tips for integrating outdoor time into daily life and suggests reimagining childhood through the lens of nature, emphasizing the importance of communication and discipline in fostering a healthy relationship with the world outside.

Takeaways:

• Engaging children in outdoor play nurtures their independence and resilience, preparing them for life's challenges.
• The practice of outdoor living encourages children to communicate and collaborate effectively while navigating nature's challenges.
• Balancing device usage with outdoor activities is crucial for maintaining children's emotional and physical health.
• Understanding and overcoming irrational fears about outdoor safety can empower parents to embrace outdoor living for their children.
• Regular exposure to nature can significantly impact children's mental health, helping to mitigate anxiety and depression.
• Incorporating outdoor play into daily routines can lead to healthier, well-rounded children, fostering both physical and emotional well-being.

Links referenced in this episode:

• whereparents talk.com

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Welcome to the Where Parents Talk podcast. We help grow better parents through science, evidence and the lived experience of other parents.

Learn how to better navigate the mental and physical health of your tween teen or young adult through proven expert advice. Here's your host, Lianne Castelino.

How can an age old Scandinavian practice benefit children and families in profound ways, both physically and mentally? Welcome to Where Parents Talk. My name is Leanne Castellino. Our guest today is a Swedish American journalist and proponent of nature.

Linda Akisson McGurk is also a photographer, blogger and author with a specific expertise in outdoor play and connecting children with, with nature. Her latest book is called there's no Such Thing as Bad Weather. Linda is also a mother of two and she joins us today from near Gothenburg, Sweden.

Thank you so much for making the time.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk about something that I feel super passionate about and have spent the past almost 15 years now advocating for.

So I take every chance that I can get to get out and talk about getting children to connect with nature.

And the practice in the Norwegian concept. And the Norwegian word is called freelac sliev or open air living. So Linda, tell us what that is and how it can be impactful.

So friefslie, as you said, it sort of roughly translates to open air life, but it doesn't really have an equivalent in, in any other language. You said Norwegian. But it's also, it's actually something that's practiced, practiced in all the Nordic countries.

So it's about connecting with nature in everyday life. And basically it's, it's more than just outdoor recreation. It's a philosophy.

It's a lifestyle where everything sort of revolves around getting outside as much as possible. And often also it's outdoor activities that are affordable and that you can do near your home.

It's non competitive, it's non motorized hiking and just walking around the neighborhood, foraging for berries and mushrooms, kayaking, skiing, camping, anything that you do outdoors that is sort of non competitive and often done together as a family.

So it's a tradition that gets passed on from one generation to the next and something that I grew up with in Sweden and something that I think that you can practice no matter where you live.

We do have an exceptional access to nature in the Nordic countries, but I think you can also adapt it to, even if you're living in a city, because nature is everywhere around us. If we just, if we just take, if we just care to notice it, you know, even the weather is part of nature too.

So just going outside and feeling the wind in your hair and the rain on your forehead, I mean, that's also part of being out and experiencing nature and the elements.

You talk about being exposed to it as a child. Take us through some of your earliest memories. What did that look like in your household, in your family?

How old were you and what were some of the activities that you took part in?

So this goes back to before my own memories. But in the Nordic countries, it's very common to take your babies outside in the wintertime and let them nap outside.

So parents would go out with a baby in the stroller, including my own parents. So I would nap outside in the wintertime.

And then once I started daycare and I got a little older, I would be outside for hours every day at day preschool and at daycare. And then as you know, as you get older, you have plenty of recess during the day and recess is always outdoors.

Pretty much you don't get indoor recess. You get, you know, you get a teacher telling you there's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes.

And they would, you know, push you out the door and, and to have outdoor recess, no matter the weather. Hence the title of my, my first book. And. And then also with the family on the weekends.

So the Norwegians, for example, they have something called the Sundagstud. So on the weekends, often you would be outside with your family, go on a Sunday hike, which is the Sunducks too. That's a tradition.

They have that every Sunday you, the family goes for a longer hike or in the wintertime you can, you go cross country skiing and so on. So it's, I often say that it takes a village to raise an outdoor child.

And I think that's very much what we have in the Nordic countries that we have, we have it come. It's not just the parents who are adamant about getting their children outside.

It's also the doctors recommending that you take your baby out in the, you know, all year round. And for outdoor naps. The preschools do it too.

They park their strollers out and in the schoolyard and, and you have, you know, the, the preschool teachers obviously also taking part in it and take their, the, the kids to, to the forest for, for learning in the forest and also in, in grade school too. And you have grandparents and other relatives also all supporting this and, and helping ensure that children get outside.

Because we, we really view it as an essential part of childhood that we think that nature is really key to raising Healthy, well rounded children, something that will, that being in nature will prepare them for academic learning later on. So we really don't push academics at all until the children start first grade, which is in, when they're six or seven years old, typically.

So it's, it's a little, it's a little different. And that's, it was a big culture shock for me.

I, you know, having grown up in Sweden and then I moved to the US when I was in my 20s and I had my children there and when I had my first daughter, it really dawned on me how different everything was with my friends who also had babies. They, they were afraid to take them out in the winter time. They thought they were going to get sick.

And I, you know, I, and it just continued when in preschool it was very academic and it was all about getting the kids, you know, kindergarten ready and lots of worksheets and wall words and even getting homework at age 4. And that was totally different to me. My friends, kids, they were just outside rolling around in the mud. And so it was, it was quite different.

And that's also what inspired me to, to write my book.

So what then would you say, Linda, we are missing in Western culture and North American culture as it relates to what you're talking about with which is this concept of outdoor living or open air living?

Well, I think we've seen childhood change dramatically in just one generation in North America. I think, I mean, anytime I go out and speak to people, parents and teachers about nature connection, I usually do a raise of hands.

I ask people, well, do you remember playing outside a lot when you were a child?

And it's like every time almost everybody in the audience raises their hand and then I ask them, do you think that your children or your child is playing outside as much as you did? And it's like nobody almost, or just, maybe just, just a few, one or a few people raise their hands.

So we have definitely seen a big shift to where indoor is some or childhood is something that mainly plays out indoors and it's hurting our children's physical health. Children today are physically weaker and have worse balance and coordination than children in the 80s. It's hurting their mental health.

We're seeing anxiety and depression and older children, it's almost an epidemic. And it's, yeah, it's, it's, I think it's the crisis for, for childhood and I think, I think it's driven by a lot of this is fear driven.

You know, there's a lot of fear, fear of nature. There's Fear of abductions, there's a fear of lawsuits and fear of the children falling behind academically.

And now we're seeing, we're paying the price.

I mean, I mentioned anxiety and depression, but we're also seeing in some places in England, they're starting to see rickets come back in children because they have so little sun exposure. I mean, that's a disease we thought was gone, long gone. Right. And also the children are just so much more sedentary.

They obviously screen time is way up and they just. They have things that we didn't have back in the 80s. I think we're not, we're not going to get back to the point where we were.

So I think what we have to do today is be very intentional about getting kids outside. And that's, you know, that's what my work is about.

Because I think there's this disconnect with nature, and it's not only hurting the, the children's health, but I also think this alienation from nature is bad for the planet. Because obviously when the kids are not out there and they're not connecting with nature on, on.

On another level, and they're not, then they're not going to develop that affinity towards nature, which means they're not going to have those incentives to protect it.

We know that all the environmentalists, when they are asked about their childhoods, pretty much all of them say that they played outside when they were little and that they had a lot of exposure to nature in childhood. I don't think that outdoor play is, Is automatically going to make you into an environmentalist, because we have a lot of examples of that, too.

But I think outdoor play in combination with, with teaching like the environment or environmental science and so on, I think that's that. That way we'll get children who will be responsible stewards of the land when they get older. And I think that's more important than ever today.

Considering all the challenges that we're facing, that the Earth is facing, certainly all.

Kinds of benefits, and there have been all kinds of studies done to corroborate that. Having had the benefit of growing up in Sweden, being exposed to that, then living in the US and seeing what that looks like.

What would you suggest to parents for whom this might be a foreign concept or a real struggle in terms of how they can incorporate outdoor play into their families and their children's activities on a daily or a regular basis?

Yeah, I think you're really hitting the nail on the head there, because what I usually talk a lot about Making it part of your daily rhythm. I think that's really important because I think going to national parks and all on vacation is great and that will create fantastic memories.

But I also think that those little moments are often overlooked.

And the moments that we have on an everyday basis, the, the little connections that we can make, maybe just by walking to school instead of taking the car, for example, if you can, if you live close enough, or if you don't, maybe stop by a park on your way home from school, just stop for, for half an hour, whatever, and make that time. And if it just, if it seems impossible, if you're too booked up, then take a hard look at your calendar to see is there anything else that can go.

Because it is really crucial to get kids to allow children to also play freely. A lot of children are just over scheduled today. A lot of children have activities from a very young age.

And I think there's an anxiety among parents that they try to book their children into as many activities as possible, thinking that they're enriching them. And I know parents mean well. I mean, they do it because they want the best for their children.

I'm not trying to shame them or anything, but I think this culture that we've sort of created, it just sort of revolves around being busy and, and, and it's very achievement oriented, it's very competitive. And I don't think necessarily that's what's best for children. I, I think they do need a lot of time for just unstructured play.

I just heard the other day that children need like 45 minutes to play, just to develop a play scheme. So it is important to get those longer chunks of time too for them to really get into their, their play.

So, you know, so, so yeah, make it part of your daily rhythm if you can and see if you can pare down some other activities. And, and I don't think it's good for neither children nor parents to feel stressed out about activities.

All the, like having these activities, all the, just trust that your children will be okay even if they don't, if they're not that booked up. And, and also don't, don't stress about the academics. You know, they'll, they'll get there.

You know, don't, don't worry so much about that part and really do try to take advantage of your local green spaces. It doesn't have to be like every outing doesn't have to be this epic adventure. I do talk a lot about this.

Like it's okay to just go to the park, Let the kids run wild for, for a while. You know, they appreciate it in, in a way that we may not realize, you know, so.

Yeah, and another thing that you can do to try and make it part of your rhythm and, and make more time for it is you can try and do things outside that you normally would do inside.

So for example, in the, in Sweden, we all, we try to eat outside as much as we can, like weather permitting, because even when you're sitting outside having a meal, you know, you can hear the birds or you, you can see, you know, there might be bugs and you can still feel the wind on your face and.

Yeah, so I think with just some smaller changes to your lifestyle, you can really get that nature exposure into your daily, daily rhythm and also try and cut down on that screen time if you, if you feel like the kids have a lot of that, because that is really, I think that's really crowding out a lot of time that kids used to play outdoors as a screen time.

I, I see it with, with a lot of families and yeah, we don't know what the long term effects will be of that quite yet, but we do know that it does take time away from outdoor play. Seeing people face to face, for example, and physical activity and all those are things that we know are beneficial to children.

For that reason alone, I think we should be a little cautious about the screen time.

One of the many things that's really quite interesting about this concept is it talks about outdoor living regardless of weather. What would you say to a parent about overcoming that piece if they do live in colder climates, etc. Etc.

And also, how can parents overcome many fears that you also outlined? Some of them, quite frankly, can be irrational. So how would you suggest that they, you know, try to manage both those pieces?

Right, so, so fear, first of all, I think, I think it's important to real. Yeah, like you said, to understand that a lot of these fears are irrational. So take abduction, for example.

There are some statistics saying that, you know, for a child to be abducted, like, statistically speaking, you'd have to basically leave them out 24,7 for 750,000 years in order for them to, statistically speaking, be abducted.

Most of the crimes against children today are committed by family members or acquaintances and not by, you know, strangers hiding behind a bush in a park. And of course, any crime against a child is a terrible thing.

But I think, what, you know, what people may not take into account is all, you know, are all the risks of a sedentary indoor Childhood, because there are a lot of very real risks of that, but we just don't. They're not as immediate, you know, so we don't think of them as risks.

So, so then when you start thinking about your fears and I, I just tell, try to tell parents to, to sort of challenge their own fears and, and, and think of them as, as something that they can overcome. So, for example, a lot of people also afraid that their children are going to get injured when they're outside.

And a lot, a lot of that comes down to letting your child play freely and take risks.

I mean, that is really key for them to learn to manage that risk by holding them back and not allowing them to play freely and, you know, climb trees or climb up boulders or balance on logs or whatever it may be.

Then when they, when they don't get to practice those skills, then they're at higher risk of injury because they've never learned that risk management. So, so start with baby steps. You can start by letting your child do something that makes you or them just a little bit uncomfortable.

And then once, you know, once you see that they can actually handle that situation, then you can gradually let them do a little more. And then another thing is to never push your child to do something that they're not comfortable with, but also don't hold them back.

So the, the, the, the sweet spot is really, you know, let you know, to follow their lead and, and let them decide for themselves. And then only step in if you think that what they're trying to do is, is really hazardous. Then of course you, you might need to step in.

But try to challenge yourself when you feel that urge. Come on to, to step in. You know, take a few deep breaths and ask yourself, is this a dangerous situation or is this just my fear speaking?

And then assess the situation and instead of jumping right in, maybe ask some questions or help guide your child. Ask. You can ask them, do you feel safe up there? Do you know, how does the, how does that branch feel? Is that branch strong enough?

Is, you know, how, you know, how's the surface or how. Yeah, is it slippery? You know, just try and guide them instead of jumping right in and getting them out of the situation.

And then you mentioned weather, and that's another fear that a lot of people have.

I mentioned earlier that I had other, There were other moms that I knew when my children were little who wouldn't take their children outside at all during the wintertime. I was called brave. I was essentially called crazy for taking my children out in the snow and playing with them in cold weather.

But the thing is that children have grown up for millennia in all sorts of climates, including very cold climates. And we haven't always had these climate, you know, constant access to climate controlled environments and they have been just fine.

So I think, you know, in Sweden and in the Nordic countries, we just dress for the weather and we go outside regardless.

And I've been, I've taken my children out in some very cold temperatures and I think the more knowledge you have and the more experience you have with that kind of weather, the, you know, the more your, your fears will just fade away. I think it's natural for any parent to be insecure about that in the beginning.

But since I started letting my children nap outside, they were both born in February by the way, and they started napping outside when they were about a week or two old, I knew from the get go what, what temperatures that they could handle and, and I knew it just from, from growing up in that culture too. It was normal to me. So I, I never really had that fear.

But I can see that when you grow up in a culture where, where everybody's telling you that, well, you can't take a baby outside. I even had nurses tell me that. Whereas in Sweden the doctors actually recommend it. So it's, it's, yeah, no wonder it's hard for parents to navigate.

But that's where the cultural aspect comes into it.

And I think that goes to show that, that our perceptions of the weather are not really, you know, the, the sphere is not really based on scientific or research because it's more of a cultural construct. So, so I'd say, you know, just dress for the weather and, and go outside anyway. It can definitely be done.

I've been there, I've been outside with my kids and like negative 30. I go skiing and I've been skiing in negative 35.

And yeah, sure, you need to have some knowledge and experience, but it'd also be cautious about signs of frostbite, of course, but just use common sense, stay close to home, make sure that you can quickly get inside if the kids hands get cold and yeah, you'll be fine.

Let's talk a little bit more about some of the benefits of outdoor play, especially on children. We know that studies have shown that it can support the building of resilience skills and independence. Can you take us through how this happens?

How does outdoor play and, you know, outdoor living contribute to the building of these key skills and children?

Well, I think, I think risky play has a big Part in this, if we're talking, you know, developing resilience and so on. Nature is just full of natural challenges that children get to try, try things on. Like, like tree climbing, for example, is a prime example.

You know, they get to, when, when they're really little, they're not going to be able to climb up by themselves. They might start helping each other.

We see this at preschools a lot where children start either grabbing things to stand on to hoist themselves up in the tree, or they might collaborate to.

So they, you know, one kid will help the other up so that already there, you know, they're learning communication skills and collaboration skills and problem solving and. And then I was talking earlier about the risk management.

They constantly, you know, as they make their way up the tree, they have to make all sorts of decisions. You know, which branches are going to be safe to stand on, which are, which ones are going to hold my weight.

And, you know, you have the, the physical challenges, too. It's going to require muscle strength and balance and coordination to, to move up the tree.

And also a lot of decisions that have to be made, like how far am I willing to go, how far up is safe, and so on. That's just one example of how children naturally encounter those challenges. And I think the same goes with weather.

I think that's another way that children really get to practice their resilience. You know, you can tell the difference between a child that's used to being outside and all sorts of weather.

They don't bat an eye if it's pouring out rain, they'll just grab their rain gear and they'll go outside and play anyway. Whereas a child who's not used to that, they're going to be more reluctant.

And I think that just teaches something really valuable, and that is that that they can be outside and the weather doesn't have to be perfect, the conditions don't have to be perfect, and they can still have a good time. And I think that's a really valuable lesson for life, frankly.

One of the interesting aspects about your story is the fact that you had your children in the US they lived there for a number of years, and in the last several years, they are now with you back in Sweden. So what was that transition like for them in terms of going back and continuing to, I presume, live an outdoor life, but in a different way?

Or did you have to teach them that because they were exposed to a different way when they were in the.

U.S. no, I think the moment I realized that, that my children were Going to have a very different childhood than I had.

And my first daughter was quite young. When that realization hit me, I sort of doubled down on my open air life background.

So I really did everything I could to sort of compensate for the, the lack of outdoor culture where we lived. So we, I, I had them out all the time as soon as they came back from. Well, first it was daycare and then school.

You know, that was the first thing we did was, would be go outside before doing homework or anything else. That's, that's where my priority was. I think the biggest change was in terms of school, schooling and the academics.

My oldest daughter, she, you know, she, she was in second grade when we moved, and at that point, no, she was actually older, but she, but by the time she was in second grade in the US in her US School, she told me that she hated school. And that really broke my heart.

So that, that transition was that, that became a big, that was a big change from, for them being in this, in the American school system, which was very competitive and, and very moving at a very fast pace and asking a lot of the kids, I think at a very early age and having very little recess. Recess wasn't even guaranteed. You know, they, sometimes school would take away recess if the kids had been talking and too loud in the cafeteria.

And, and so they weren't even guaranteed recess every day. So that, that was a big change coming to Sweden and everything was in a little calmer pace and more outdoor time.

And I think they sort of, they both just sort of regain their, their love of learning because I think, I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, that's the most important thing that can come out of school and that you don't want your child to hate school by second grade.

That, that's, that really, it broke my heart, but it also lit a fire in me, and that's what really made me, you know, accelerate, you know, my speaking and writing about these issues too.

Linda, we're almost out of time, but I did want to ask you one quick question.

What one piece of advice would you give to parents who maybe want to adopt this, who have listened to this interview and say to themselves, all of this makes sense. It addresses so many, you know, pain points that we're experiencing as a family.

What one small step could they attempt to take today that would help move them in a direction to embrace outdoor play and outdoor living?

I'd say just commit to 15 minutes per day. I mean, start with that and then you can build on it. I think anybody can do 15 minutes. That's such a small chunk of time.

And if you commit to that, I can almost guarantee you that it's going to grow on you, it's going to grow on the kids, and you'll want to make that a little longer every day.

You could also join a challenge like the thousand hours outside or something like that, and, you know, find others who are also doing the same thing and kind of motivate each other. But, but that'd be, you know, that's, that's my advice.

Lots of wonderful food for thought. Linda Akison McGurk, outdoor advocate, author, journalist and blogger, thank you so much for your time and your perspective today.

Thank you for having me.

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