What struck me about today’s guest was how comfortable she is in the type of leader she shows up to be. As she’ll admit, it’s been a work in progress over a varied career in the NHS, but a strong sense of her values and a clear purpose to make a difference has helped to guide her in even the most challenging of times.

Today I am talking with Trudie Davies, CEO of Gateshead Health NHS Foundation Trust. We discuss:

• moving from clinical to operational roles
• the importance of asking questions
• transitioning to CEO
• staying motivated in a 30 year career
• determining the type of leader you want to show up as
• gaining organisational agreement and alignment for an ‘upside down’ approach to management (inspired by Timpsons)
• responding to external factors whilst maintaining a focus on your vision
• being an NHS leader in the face of relentless challenge, including industrial action
• what happens if you don't lead by your values
• how coaching and mentoring helped to navigate situations and relationships whilst finding who you want to be as a leader
• showing up authentically
• why her dogs are a famous face amongst colleagues
• dealing with isolation and managing a relocation
• advice for aspiring CEOs

Resources and helpful links

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

Get in touch

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Lee Griffith: 00:00:03

What struck me about today's guest was how

Lee Griffith: 00:00:05

comfortable she is in the type of leader she shows up to be. I

Lee Griffith: 00:00:09

shall admit it's been a work in progress over a varied career in

Lee Griffith: 00:00:12

the NHS, with a strong sense of values and a clear purpose to

Lee Griffith: 00:00:15

make a difference has helped guide in even the most

Lee Griffith: 00:00:18

challenging times. I'm Lee Griffith at communication

Lee Griffith: 00:00:21

strategies executive coaching all round champion of leaders

Lee Griffith: 00:00:24

who shun the old school stereotypes. I'm here to help

Lee Griffith: 00:00:27

you get clear on your strategy, implement some self leadership

Lee Griffith: 00:00:31

and connect with those who serve through your communications so

Lee Griffith: 00:00:34

that you can deliver improved organizational performance,

Lee Griffith: 00:00:37

engagement and reputation sign up to my newsletters to receive

Lee Griffith: 00:00:41

even more useful insights into how to be an impactful leader.

Lee Griffith: 00:00:44

You can also find out how I can support your organization to

Lee Griffith: 00:00:47

better connect with the people it serves. Visit Sundayskies.com

Lee Griffith: 00:00:51

To find out more. Today I'm talking about Terry Davis, CEO

Lee Griffith: 00:00:54

of Gateshead health NHS Foundation Trust, Judy shares

Lee Griffith: 00:00:57

how she stayed motivated over a 30 year career, how she's got

Lee Griffith: 00:01:00

organizational alignment in taken an upside down approach to

Lee Griffith: 00:01:03

management, how she copes with being an NHS leader in the face

Lee Griffith: 00:01:07

of relentless challenge, and why her dog is a famous face amongst

Lee Griffith: 00:01:10

colleagues enjoy.

Lee Griffith: 00:01:21

So I'm delighted to welcome Judy Davis to the leaders of impact

Lee Griffith: 00:01:25

podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm going to

Lee Griffith: 00:01:29

jump straight in with my first question, which is what does

Lee Griffith: 00:01:32

impactful leadership mean to

Unknown: 00:01:34

you? That's a really broad question, isn't it, Lee,

Unknown: 00:01:38

because I think the impactful leadership is very much

Unknown: 00:01:41

dependent on where you're working and what you're doing.

Unknown: 00:01:45

And for me, as a chief executive in the NHS, impactful leadership

Unknown: 00:01:49

is making a difference to the people I serve, whether that be

Unknown: 00:01:53

patients or our staff, and I choose my words around who I

Unknown: 00:01:57

serve quite carefully, because I believe that as a chief

Unknown: 00:02:01

executive officer within the NHS, you are actually in a very

Unknown: 00:02:05

privileged position, and that you do serve the people who work

Unknown: 00:02:09

with you in an organization because they are the people that

Unknown: 00:02:12

look after our patients. So an impact for me is that when I

Unknown: 00:02:16

make a difference for them, the impactful leadership element of

Unknown: 00:02:20

it is how I can create a culture, an environment where

Unknown: 00:02:24

they feel able to make a difference for our patients.

Unknown: 00:02:27

Brilliant,

Lee Griffith: 00:02:28

thank you. So I always like to go right back to

Lee Griffith: 00:02:31

the beginning of a person's kind of career and what shaped them

Lee Griffith: 00:02:36

as the person that they are. For you.

Lee Griffith: 00:02:39

Tell me a little bit about yourself, and how you've, I

Lee Griffith: 00:02:43

suppose, become the person that you are today. I

Unknown: 00:02:46

currently live in the north of England, as you know,

Unknown: 00:02:49

but that it didn't start out like that I lived as born in

Unknown: 00:02:51

Devon, right. I was in a fairly small town in North Devon, and I

Unknown: 00:02:56

probably had a fairly poor childhood. I learned very early

Unknown: 00:03:02

in my childhood, that working hard, gave you results. And I

Unknown: 00:03:07

wanted to work hard. But I came probably from a background where

Unknown: 00:03:13

ambition wasn't really high on the agenda. I didn't have

Unknown: 00:03:18

ambition. Nobody in my family had been to university. I just

Unknown: 00:03:22

wanted to live a happy life really, I started to gain

Unknown: 00:03:26

ambition when I wanted to be a nurse at the local hospital. And

Unknown: 00:03:30

I worked hard to be a nurse. And that does indicate that there

Unknown: 00:03:34

was some ambition. But I didn't see that as particularly

Unknown: 00:03:37

ambitious. I saw it as something I really wanted to do. And from

Unknown: 00:03:40

the very minute that I set foot in that hospital on the ward,

Unknown: 00:03:45

North Devon district hospital, I found a place where I was

Unknown: 00:03:49

immediately happy. I found that I was working with people who I

Unknown: 00:03:55

wanted to be with who wanted to be with me. And we shared a

Unknown: 00:04:00

common purpose, a common goal. And my ambition, that spark

Unknown: 00:04:05

started in me then. And my ambition then started making I

Unknown: 00:04:09

want to be a stiffness, I want to be stiffness on this ward.

Unknown: 00:04:12

And then I wanted to be a sister on this ward. I've never thought

Unknown: 00:04:15

far ahead. But I've always wanted to be better than what I

Unknown: 00:04:19

am from that point onwards because I learned very quickly

Unknown: 00:04:22

that you can do that in the NHS you can you're surrounded very

Unknown: 00:04:27

often by people who want you to be the best that you can be

Unknown: 00:04:29

because that gives patients a better outcome. And so my career

Unknown: 00:04:33

started way back then. So my nurse training started in 1992.

Unknown: 00:04:37

It was like a very long time ago.

Lee Griffith: 00:04:41

You've obviously stuck around in the NHS since

Lee Griffith: 00:04:44

then. What's kept you there?

Unknown: 00:04:46

Oh, everything. I wouldn't work anywhere else. I

Unknown: 00:04:48

love him. I love working in the NHS. I love working with people.

Unknown: 00:04:51

I love the diversity of the people I work with. I love the

Unknown: 00:04:54

diversity of the jobs that I do. I love the opportunities. I like

Unknown: 00:04:59

the X experiences, I learned something new every day I'm

Unknown: 00:05:03

challenged every day. I'm often annoyed every day as well. But

Unknown: 00:05:06

you know that that's, that's the way it goes. I just feel that I

Unknown: 00:05:11

work with people in the NHS who share a common set of values.

Unknown: 00:05:15

And I haven't realized that till later in my career that that is

Unknown: 00:05:18

what motivates me. Because quite often is when you work with

Unknown: 00:05:21

people who don't share your values, that you realize what

Unknown: 00:05:24

actually does make a difference to you in life. And actually,

Unknown: 00:05:29

I've feel very, very attached to the NHS, and very, very proud of

Unknown: 00:05:34

what the NHS does, in very difficult circumstances.

Lee Griffith: 00:05:38

And you made that shift from nursing frontline, as

Lee Griffith: 00:05:41

they've learned, say, into operational management, and

Lee Griffith: 00:05:44

you've had a really varied career. Why did you make that

Lee Griffith: 00:05:48

shift, I

Unknown: 00:05:49

suppose, was unintentional, really, I think

Unknown: 00:05:53

it comes with having curiosity. I remember as a sister on a

Unknown: 00:05:57

stroke unit in Leeds, which is another great job, I love that,

Unknown: 00:06:01

we would really try very hard to get the patients directly to the

Unknown: 00:06:04

stroke unit, because their outcomes are better. Of course,

Unknown: 00:06:06

they are, you know, these days, I know all about getting expert

Unknown: 00:06:10

care to the right place early. But in those days, I just knew

Unknown: 00:06:13

that the patients did better when they got to us. And I

Unknown: 00:06:16

wanted to understand more about that process and how patients

Unknown: 00:06:20

got their bed, handle apps through how everything happened.

Unknown: 00:06:25

And to do that, I couldn't do that from the Ward environment

Unknown: 00:06:28

where I was, and needed to do that by branching out a little

Unknown: 00:06:32

bit. So I moved into service improvement. And I worked with

Unknown: 00:06:36

the modernization agency through Leeds teaching hospitals to

Unknown: 00:06:39

learn a lot of service improvement techniques. And as

Unknown: 00:06:42

well as learning a lot, I also realized there was a lot I

Unknown: 00:06:45

didn't know, which is why I realized I had no idea about how

Unknown: 00:06:48

the hospital actually ran other than the clinical parts. I

Unknown: 00:06:51

didn't know about waiting lists. I didn't know about booking I

Unknown: 00:06:54

didn't know about anything like that. So I went and worked in

Unknown: 00:06:57

trauma and Orthopaedics as a business manager and rapidly

Unknown: 00:07:01

learned on the job. And every time I found something I didn't

Unknown: 00:07:04

know I got another job to do it. Like that's how I worked around

Unknown: 00:07:09

the hospital. And what's that taught

Lee Griffith: 00:07:11

you? I suppose you've moved into more senior

Lee Griffith: 00:07:14

roles. As you say, you didn't know what you didn't know,

Lee Griffith: 00:07:17

whilst you were moving into these roles. How's that helped

Lee Griffith: 00:07:20

shape you now, as the leader

Unknown: 00:07:22

that you are? Always be inquisitive? Always ask

Unknown: 00:07:26

questions. People will tell you people like to talk about

Unknown: 00:07:31

themselves. People like to tell you what they know, they like to

Unknown: 00:07:34

share their knowledge. And if you're prepared to listen, you

Unknown: 00:07:37

will learn. And the more you ask, the more you learn, and the

Unknown: 00:07:42

more rounded individual you are as a manager, and you begin to

Unknown: 00:07:45

make much more informed decisions, have more informed

Unknown: 00:07:49

conversations. But it's respectful of the people that do

Unknown: 00:07:52

the job, who are experts already in that job that you're learning

Unknown: 00:07:56

from them. And I learned that very, very quickly. As soon as

Unknown: 00:07:59

you're out of your comfort zone, it's easy to feel stressed, feel

Unknown: 00:08:03

worried, feel anxious. But in the NHS, there are experts all

Unknown: 00:08:07

around you. There's always someone cleverer than you always

Unknown: 00:08:10

we work with very clever people across the NHS and experts, why

Unknown: 00:08:15

not use their expertise? And I learned that very, very early.

Unknown: 00:08:19

Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:08:19

yeah. So over a course of about 30 years, you've

Lee Griffith: 00:08:22

slowly been working your way up the country. You're now in

Lee Griffith: 00:08:25

Gateshead. Yeah.

Unknown: 00:08:27

Much further north.

Lee Griffith: 00:08:30

And you've been chief exec there for almost a

Lee Griffith: 00:08:32

year, is it? Yeah, almost a year, what's what's been your

Lee Griffith: 00:08:36

biggest learning in that transition into the chief

Lee Griffith: 00:08:39

executive role having been, you know, clinician into operational

Lee Griffith: 00:08:42

management, it must feel very different. Once again,

Unknown: 00:08:46

it feels different, but it feels very natural. The

Unknown: 00:08:50

differences the level of responsibility I feel for our

Unknown: 00:08:54

staff and our patients and the drive to get that right. And

Unknown: 00:08:59

that lives with me, but I've always had a sense of

Unknown: 00:09:01

responsibility in the jobs that I've had, but it is particularly

Unknown: 00:09:05

tough as chief executive, it does feel quite isolated in

Unknown: 00:09:08

terms of that responsibility. There's also a lot that's

Unknown: 00:09:11

familiar because it is the NHS is a hospital, I am comfortable

Unknown: 00:09:15

in that environment, taking what I am comfortable with and making

Unknown: 00:09:19

the effort to learn the culture here and the culture in the

Unknown: 00:09:23

Northeast because I've come from the West Yorkshire region. So to

Unknown: 00:09:26

move into the northeast, it's a new region as well. So it's not

Unknown: 00:09:29

just the hospital I've moved is the region. And actually the

Unknown: 00:09:33

networks as a chief executive are quite different. You're

Unknown: 00:09:36

working with other chief executives and other providers,

Unknown: 00:09:39

you're working across system in place. So all those people are

Unknown: 00:09:42

new to me. So the hospital is really my comfort zone, I guess.

Unknown: 00:09:46

Yeah, I hadn't thought of

Lee Griffith: 00:09:47

it in that way that it's not just about going

Lee Griffith: 00:09:50

into the new organization. You're You're the new girl in

Lee Griffith: 00:09:53

your part. Yeah. So what reserves have you had to pull on

Lee Griffith: 00:09:58

I suppose as as the new girl I've

Unknown: 00:10:01

always got a lot of energy and enthusiasm. It

Unknown: 00:10:04

doesn't take a lot to keep me motivated. And I get my energy

Unknown: 00:10:09

from the familiar. I do worry, and I do have bad days. And I do

Unknown: 00:10:14

say anything, I'll cry, kick, butt on the right thing. And you

Unknown: 00:10:18

can get into a little bit of a negative cycle Can't you have

Unknown: 00:10:20

anxiety and worrying if you if you just sit too much, and you

Unknown: 00:10:24

look at a screen and rehearse the email that you maybe

Unknown: 00:10:27

shouldn't have sent, or you should have sent, but it takes

Unknown: 00:10:29

about five minutes to just walk across the road and go up to the

Unknown: 00:10:33

hospital or into our community services, and have a chat with a

Unknown: 00:10:37

few people and answer a few questions and have a cup of tea

Unknown: 00:10:41

in the canteen. And then you feel a lot better about life.

Unknown: 00:10:44

help people find their way around, feel really proud that

Unknown: 00:10:47

actually you can help people find that clinic because you

Unknown: 00:10:49

know, 10 months ago, nearly a year ago, I had no idea where

Unknown: 00:10:52

anything was, I feel incredibly proud of myself and I can help

Unknown: 00:10:56

people out just in getting somewhere and my energy is

Unknown: 00:10:59

restored Instantly. Instantly. Yeah. So it's fairly easy to re

Unknown: 00:11:05

Energize.

Lee Griffith: 00:11:06

And how do you think your approach to

Lee Griffith: 00:11:09

leadership's changed as you've grown, I suppose in the

Lee Griffith: 00:11:13

different roles for different organizations? Yeah,

Unknown: 00:11:16

I guess when I was younger, when I was, you know,

Unknown: 00:11:19

Ward sister, or a fairly Junior manager, I used to think

Unknown: 00:11:23

probably more along the lines that leadership was about

Unknown: 00:11:26

authority and management. And it's not at all leadership's

Unknown: 00:11:30

about influencing and culture, and taking people with you on a

Unknown: 00:11:35

journey, or you going with them on their journey and helping to

Unknown: 00:11:38

steer that journey. And it's a privilege that's changed over

Unknown: 00:11:42

the years. And I know that my behaviors have changed. But it

Unknown: 00:11:46

was only really when I did my masters, which I did quite late

Unknown: 00:11:48

in life. So not long ago, that I tried to apply some real

Unknown: 00:11:53

academic thinking into what I wanted my leadership style to

Unknown: 00:11:57

be, and why and what leadership style is needed to have a

Unknown: 00:12:02

positive impact on patient outcomes. And I challenged

Unknown: 00:12:05

myself on that on my dissertation, what did I need to

Unknown: 00:12:08

do to create a positive outcome for patients and make a material

Unknown: 00:12:13

difference in their outcomes. And I spent a lot of time

Unknown: 00:12:16

recognizing that if you believe and academia supports that an

Unknown: 00:12:21

engaged workforce and a happy workforce, deliver better

Unknown: 00:12:25

outcomes, because we have psychological safety amongst the

Unknown: 00:12:29

workforce, which allows them to innovate and allows them to do

Unknown: 00:12:32

the right thing, that my job is to make sure that we've got a

Unknown: 00:12:36

happy and safe workforce that allows them to be the best that

Unknown: 00:12:39

they can be. And that true belief that the person who's

Unknown: 00:12:43

doing the job knows best how to do the job. And if you recognize

Unknown: 00:12:47

and believe that, you recognize that that allows for some

Unknown: 00:12:51

differences in that people do do things differently. And we'd

Unknown: 00:12:55

we'd had a brief chat before Lee about the the timpson's model,

Unknown: 00:12:57

which I found so simple, and so inspiring, you know, that that

Unknown: 00:13:02

true belief that they call it upside down management, that the

Unknown: 00:13:06

people who do the job know best how to do the job, so let them

Unknown: 00:13:09

do the job. Don't write a policy of how you think the job should

Unknown: 00:13:13

be done. Don't write standard operating procedure that says

Unknown: 00:13:15

this is how the job should be done. Write the standard

Unknown: 00:13:18

operating procedure and the way it is done. And the people who

Unknown: 00:13:22

are doing the job, tell you how that is and then best practice

Unknown: 00:13:25

rolls out. So you're not trying to impose you're trying to

Unknown: 00:13:30

evolve and the timpson's model with their very simple rules

Unknown: 00:13:33

we've tried to adapt and adopt here at Gates had to say if you

Unknown: 00:13:37

have the privilege of giving frontline care, your job is

Unknown: 00:13:40

quite simple. You do whatever you can, in the within your

Unknown: 00:13:43

means to give the best experience to our patients. And

Unknown: 00:13:47

if you don't give frontline care, you're just as important.

Unknown: 00:13:49

But your job is to make sure the people who do get frontline care

Unknown: 00:13:52

can give the patients the best experience whether that's

Unknown: 00:13:55

through making sure we train, we educate we support, we pay we

Unknown: 00:13:59

recruit, we do everything in a way. That's right, that allows

Unknown: 00:14:04

our staff to be the best that they can be. Yeah. And it's when

Unknown: 00:14:08

you connect to that, that actually your job profile

Unknown: 00:14:11

changes. It's no longer about setting the rules. It's

Unknown: 00:14:15

understanding what the rules are, and guiding the culture to

Unknown: 00:14:18

where we collectively want it to be. And

Lee Griffith: 00:14:21

did you have to do any work with the board and your

Lee Griffith: 00:14:25

executive team to get them on that page with you or with them?

Lee Griffith: 00:14:29

We did

Unknown: 00:14:30

it together as part of my dissertation, we were really

Unknown: 00:14:33

clear that the ambition that we've got is to be the best

Unknown: 00:14:36

place to work in the NHS. So they supported my dissertation,

Unknown: 00:14:41

and we undertook a thematic review to make sure we

Unknown: 00:14:44

understood the culture that was here. So we ran focus groups. We

Unknown: 00:14:48

looked at reports external reports surveys, understood what

Unknown: 00:14:52

people were saying, played that back to people and created a

Unknown: 00:14:55

review, which identified nine themes of where we wanted to be

Unknown: 00:15:00

And then as a board, we went through those themes and said,

Unknown: 00:15:03

Is this right? Is that what we agree, and we call it our

Unknown: 00:15:06

thematic review. And we use that to drive some of the changes, we

Unknown: 00:15:09

took that to our governors, we took that to staff, our clinical

Unknown: 00:15:13

leaders group through board, and the actions are still being

Unknown: 00:15:17

done. Now we're still working on that. And we check back to that

Unknown: 00:15:21

review, to say, Are we where we need to be, and there are

Unknown: 00:15:24

practical things in there. But there are developmental things

Unknown: 00:15:27

in there. So one of the clear outcomes was goal congruence

Unknown: 00:15:31

amongst the board team, that unitary board, when we are all

Unknown: 00:15:35

signed up to the same vision and the same goals, and we pull

Unknown: 00:15:38

together, sharing corporate responsibility, then we will be

Unknown: 00:15:43

successful. But how do you do that? And that unitary board

Unknown: 00:15:46

function? How do you share those? How do you work together?

Unknown: 00:15:49

How do you create that same vision and drive so we've worked

Unknown: 00:15:54

hard on our relationships. So that unity board function is a

Unknown: 00:15:57

work in progress or where we are learning to work with each other

Unknown: 00:16:01

and steer and give the same messages. And then trying to

Unknown: 00:16:04

roll that through the organization so that all of the

Unknown: 00:16:06

teams that we work with, share that level of shared vision and

Unknown: 00:16:11

understanding so that, that we're all pulling in the same

Unknown: 00:16:14

direction, which is a direction that's set by the people who do

Unknown: 00:16:16

the job in this organization. And our patients, says, a lot of

Unknown: 00:16:20

hard work gone into it. So I'm sure we'll be at it for a long

Unknown: 00:16:23

time. Sure. It's eternal, usually. But it's very

Unknown: 00:16:25

satisfying. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:16:27

I as you were talking, one thing that sprung

Lee Griffith: 00:16:30

to mind is the fact that you you're not operating in

Lee Griffith: 00:16:35

isolation, you're part of a wider system, you've obviously

Lee Griffith: 00:16:38

got the broader political influence and impact on the

Lee Griffith: 00:16:42

stuff that you do. How does that work when you've got an

Lee Griffith: 00:16:45

approach, which is let the experts do what they need to do?

Lee Griffith: 00:16:49

And then perhaps externally, you're being told what to do by

Lee Griffith: 00:16:52

people who aren't experts? Or maybe I'm being a bit blunt

Lee Griffith: 00:16:56

isn't saying?

Unknown: 00:16:58

Yeah, well, I mean, in locally, all I do, and that the

Unknown: 00:17:03

Gateshead place, we have a really great working

Unknown: 00:17:05

relationship with people across our system, because, again, they

Unknown: 00:17:09

are experts in what they do. So that mutual respect comes into

Unknown: 00:17:15

play, we do a lot of work with our local authority in our

Unknown: 00:17:17

voluntary sector who are experts in their own right. And we work

Unknown: 00:17:23

together bringing our expertise together, we are given targets,

Unknown: 00:17:27

we are given standards to hit. Let's assume that those

Unknown: 00:17:31

standards are all there to try and make the patient outcome

Unknown: 00:17:34

better. What I say and what we say here is let's not hit the

Unknown: 00:17:39

target and miss the point, let's do both. So if the target is

Unknown: 00:17:44

about waiting lists size, the way to manage the waiting lists

Unknown: 00:17:49

size that are there multiple, that the thing that we want to

Unknown: 00:17:52

do is treat more patients, we want to treat more patients

Unknown: 00:17:56

because we want to reduce the waiting list size by giving

Unknown: 00:17:58

better care by treating more people by getting the well

Unknown: 00:18:01

getting them back to work. That's what our clinical staff

Unknown: 00:18:05

wants to do. They're not interested in management

Unknown: 00:18:08

techniques to manage a waiting list. They want the weight and

Unknown: 00:18:12

the size to be reduced. Because we're treating more patients.

Unknown: 00:18:16

What we do together is we say, actually, to get that weight in

Unknown: 00:18:20

this size down, there is an element of validating that we're

Unknown: 00:18:22

waiting lists, which is an admin function. But that means we

Unknown: 00:18:25

offer appointments to the right patients at the right time. So

Unknown: 00:18:28

if collectively we take every goal that we're given in the

Unknown: 00:18:31

organization, and we turn it into what is the benefit for

Unknown: 00:18:33

patients, and say, actually, if we achieve this, we will, we

Unknown: 00:18:37

will make a difference to our patients, you can actually work

Unknown: 00:18:41

through 90% of the things that you're asked to do and maintain

Unknown: 00:18:45

your vision and goal to be the best place to work most place to

Unknown: 00:18:48

offer care in the NHS. So it's a glass half full approach. I

Unknown: 00:18:52

could spend time moaning and thinking about why that's not

Unknown: 00:18:56

right. It's wasted energy I need to get on and we need to do the

Unknown: 00:18:59

right thing for our our population. Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:19:02

I definitely agree with that. That's my year of the

Lee Griffith: 00:19:05

reframe is what can I control and what can't I and that's

Unknown: 00:19:09

absolutely, you know, let's do what's right. And let's

Unknown: 00:19:14

hope that when you live by the right values, and you do the

Unknown: 00:19:16

right thing, you get the right outcome, and you will get

Unknown: 00:19:18

recognized accordingly. And let's live by that belief. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:19:21

you're here.

Lee Griffith: 00:19:22

So we're recording this interview on the back of

Lee Griffith: 00:19:25

what's been really lengthy industrial action. public demand

Lee Griffith: 00:19:30

services is higher than it's ever been. What does that feel

Lee Griffith: 00:19:33

like to be an NHS leader at the moment?

Unknown: 00:19:37

There are many emotions because the passion that

Unknown: 00:19:40

everybody has, whether they are taking industrial action or not

Unknown: 00:19:43

to work in the NHS is to look after people and treat more

Unknown: 00:19:47

people and people choose to take industrial action. There's an

Unknown: 00:19:50

internal struggle for each and every one of us, and everybody

Unknown: 00:19:54

will make their own choice about the action that they take and

Unknown: 00:19:57

that's not mine to judge. My job is to keep the whole hospitals

Unknown: 00:20:00

safe while that happens, and maintain the premise that all of

Unknown: 00:20:05

our staff want to do the right thing. And I feel very worried

Unknown: 00:20:08

quite a lot of the time about getting that balance, right,

Unknown: 00:20:12

making sure that we do support people to take industrial action

Unknown: 00:20:15

where they feel the need to, but protecting the services that we

Unknown: 00:20:20

give, and protecting the ambition that we have for this

Unknown: 00:20:23

organization. And every time we have industrial action, we slip

Unknown: 00:20:27

back a bit in the ambition that we're trying to deliver, trying

Unknown: 00:20:31

to keep a team motivated, when we've done huge amounts of good

Unknown: 00:20:35

work, and then suddenly, you can see it being eroded in front of

Unknown: 00:20:38

you. And you know, sometimes the disappointment that you're

Unknown: 00:20:42

causing people who've worked so hard, it's frustrating. It's

Unknown: 00:20:47

hard work, but it's just part of the reality of which we're

Unknown: 00:20:50

living in. Yeah, and we can't give up and we're not going to

Unknown: 00:20:54

we are going to make things better. So the effort is that

Unknown: 00:20:58

level of motivation, and we've just done some feedback at

Unknown: 00:21:01

Gateshead over the, you know, this financial year, what we've

Unknown: 00:21:04

achieved, and some of our performance has improved hugely,

Unknown: 00:21:07

we've really made good progress into our responsiveness, our

Unknown: 00:21:11

quality, our waiting lists, etc. The teams here have done a

Unknown: 00:21:15

fabulous job on productivity. And we will need to reflect

Unknown: 00:21:18

that. And it's quite hard to say, look, look how fabulous

Unknown: 00:21:23

things are. Men respect that the fact that they're really hard,

Unknown: 00:21:26

people are working really hard to keep that connection. You

Unknown: 00:21:29

know, I don't live in cloud cuckoo land, I know, this is

Unknown: 00:21:32

really difficult. But he was still able to achieve and

Unknown: 00:21:35

getting that balance, right from a leadership perspective is

Unknown: 00:21:38

difficult in the messaging, and that communication so that you

Unknown: 00:21:41

don't appear disconnected from the organization.

Lee Griffith: 00:21:45

That was what was going through my mind as you

Lee Griffith: 00:21:47

were talking, you've got that push and pull, haven't you of

Lee Griffith: 00:21:50

trying to keep people's morale up whilst recognizing where

Lee Griffith: 00:21:53

they're at trying to focus and deal with the here and now

Lee Griffith: 00:21:57

pressure whilst having an eye to the future? Obviously, there's

Lee Griffith: 00:22:00

this constant, kind of back and forth that must be going on? Are

Lee Griffith: 00:22:04

there any practical things that you're doing and putting in

Lee Griffith: 00:22:07

place that's helping you to stay present, but be mindful of where

Lee Griffith: 00:22:12

you're going? There

Unknown: 00:22:13

are practical things in terms of how we look at the

Unknown: 00:22:17

structures of our communication, what we communicate, when we

Unknown: 00:22:20

communicate, who communicates so that we can try and get that

Unknown: 00:22:24

balance, right, and getting the feedback, right. And I think

Unknown: 00:22:28

that's something that we will be working on forever, we can

Unknown: 00:22:31

always improve how we do that. But it is really dependent on us

Unknown: 00:22:37

getting the feedback of the teams in the organization,

Unknown: 00:22:40

you're getting feedback from people about how did that land?

Unknown: 00:22:43

How did that feel? Was it okay? Is it all right out there? You

Unknown: 00:22:46

know, where is there a problem and where there's not a problem?

Unknown: 00:22:49

Let's not pretend that it's all okay, let's let's call that out

Unknown: 00:22:53

and then say, actually, this happened, it really wasn't

Unknown: 00:22:56

great. We're going to try making this better and how that works.

Unknown: 00:22:59

And his people believe that you then do know what's going on. I

Unknown: 00:23:03

don't always but I try really hard. Those practical elements

Unknown: 00:23:07

of staying connected, being visible being out and about

Unknown: 00:23:10

helped me to keep the balance, right, because the direction is

Unknown: 00:23:13

only set from where we are and where people want to go. So the

Unknown: 00:23:18

aim

Lee Griffith: 00:23:18

of this podcast is to prove that it's possible that

Lee Griffith: 00:23:22

you can lead in a different way and that you don't have to

Lee Griffith: 00:23:25

conform to all the old stereotypes. And I'm sure you

Lee Griffith: 00:23:29

probably have seen this in your career. I know when I've worked

Lee Griffith: 00:23:31

in the NHS, and we're friends and family, you still work

Lee Griffith: 00:23:34

there, there is still an element of some leaders with outdated

Lee Griffith: 00:23:39

approaches, perhaps is not not what we would see as the modern

Lee Griffith: 00:23:43

view of leadership. And I know, obviously, you're you're on this

Lee Griffith: 00:23:46

show that you see leadership in a different way. And everything

Lee Griffith: 00:23:51

you've been talking about is demonstrated that, but I'm

Lee Griffith: 00:23:54

interested in maybe the challenges that you faced over

Lee Griffith: 00:23:57

your career and how you overcame tackling some of the outdated

Lee Griffith: 00:24:02

stereotypes of what a leader should be. If

Unknown: 00:24:05

I'm really honest, when I have tried to work as I

Unknown: 00:24:11

thought a leader might need to work, and I have tried possibly

Unknown: 00:24:16

to be something that doesn't sit naturally with me. I've not done

Unknown: 00:24:20

well, and I've been unhappy. I think I probably earlier in my

Unknown: 00:24:26

career, didn't actually handle that very well, that there's a

Unknown: 00:24:30

particular period I can think about where I thought I'm quite

Unknown: 00:24:33

senior now. I need to be like this. This is how I will behave

Unknown: 00:24:38

what I'll do. And I tried it and and I wasn't getting the results

Unknown: 00:24:43

and I wasn't successful. I got into a cycle where I wasn't able

Unknown: 00:24:47

to deliver what I wanted to deliver. So I tried harder to do

Unknown: 00:24:50

this. And it didn't work for me. It genuinely made me feel sad

Unknown: 00:24:54

and unhappy. And I remember having a look at myself and

Unknown: 00:24:58

thinking do you know what this is? Begin into effect my home

Unknown: 00:25:00

life. I'm not happy at work. I'm trying all the things I think I

Unknown: 00:25:04

should be doing. And someone very wise a coach to me said,

Unknown: 00:25:08

You're not living your values, you're trying to live somebody

Unknown: 00:25:11

else's values. You're trying to be something you're not. If the

Unknown: 00:25:15

job requires you to do that, do you want that job? It? No, I

Unknown: 00:25:19

thought I had word on myself. And I thought that yeah, no, I

Unknown: 00:25:22

don't want this. I am who I am at the heart, I just want to do

Unknown: 00:25:25

a good job. I'm I was a nurse, when I started out, I'm from a

Unknown: 00:25:29

small town in Devon. I'm not a natural political networker. I'm

Unknown: 00:25:34

never going to be I am, who I am, like working with people.

Unknown: 00:25:38

And as soon as I switched my head back on, and thought, just

Unknown: 00:25:42

be who you are, I realized that that was the most important

Unknown: 00:25:45

thing for me. And that's, that's not arrogance. It's not

Unknown: 00:25:49

arrogance, in that, who I am, is better than anybody else, who I

Unknown: 00:25:52

am as who I am, and who I am, works for where I am now in my

Unknown: 00:25:57

career. And at the minute, Gates said, and I have a great working

Unknown: 00:26:00

relationship, I need them, they need me, we work really well

Unknown: 00:26:03

together. And the making come a time when they need something

Unknown: 00:26:07

else. Or I do, I hope it's not for a long time. But we'll find

Unknown: 00:26:11

our way together, because we're all trying to do the same thing.

Unknown: 00:26:14

So that lesson for me about authenticity came hard.

Lee Griffith: 00:26:18

I don't know about you, but I had a similar

Lee Griffith: 00:26:20

epiphany in my career as well. And, and it can be hard as you

Lee Griffith: 00:26:25

try to find refined your feet of who you were, because people

Lee Griffith: 00:26:29

around you have expects you to be something else. And you get a

Lee Griffith: 00:26:33

bit of pushback from that. And that can be a challenge in and

Lee Griffith: 00:26:36

of itself, you

Unknown: 00:26:37

find that, to some extent, yeah. Because people

Unknown: 00:26:41

watch you. And when you're in a senior position, people learn

Unknown: 00:26:44

from you. And I don't think it's always obvious just how much

Unknown: 00:26:48

impact a leader can have on those around them. And one of

Unknown: 00:26:51

the things that as a leader, you need to be as fairly consistent.

Unknown: 00:26:54

And when you are having these internal struggles, bad days,

Unknown: 00:26:58

good days, and that local epiphany, as we've just

Unknown: 00:27:01

described it, people are looking, watch how much you're

Unknown: 00:27:04

gonna come out with next, you know, it's probably a bit

Unknown: 00:27:07

disconcerting, but I did have a proper word on myself and

Unknown: 00:27:10

getting some good coaching and some mentoring and taking wise

Unknown: 00:27:15

words from wise people who you trust helps you to do that, and

Unknown: 00:27:20

being honest. And actually, if you get things wrong, at those

Unknown: 00:27:23

times, just say, actually, I'm really trying, I'm really trying

Unknown: 00:27:26

to be different. I'm really trying to achieve this or

Unknown: 00:27:29

whatever it is, and actually, the people that matter will

Unknown: 00:27:32

support you. The people that don't matter won't, so don't

Unknown: 00:27:35

worry about it. Yeah. Back

Lee Griffith: 00:27:37

to that what's in your control? Yeah. You've

Lee Griffith: 00:27:42

touched on authenticity. And one of the things that I loved when

Lee Griffith: 00:27:46

I saw you speak at an event last year, was how prominent your dog

Lee Griffith: 00:27:50

was in your life as a leader.

Unknown: 00:27:52

Yeah, I've got two of them. I've got two dogs. They're

Unknown: 00:27:55

both precious, baby.

Lee Griffith: 00:27:57

I mean, I've got a Labrador too. So I completely

Lee Griffith: 00:27:59

understand why they become such a big part of your life. But the

Lee Griffith: 00:28:03

fact that it caught my attention shows how connecting it can be I

Lee Griffith: 00:28:09

suppose to learn more about the human behind the leader that you

Lee Griffith: 00:28:14

see every day. And yeah, my question is around your decision

Lee Griffith: 00:28:18

making sure to share that part and other bits of your life with

Lee Griffith: 00:28:23

your organization or you're on Twitter. So you know the world

Lee Griffith: 00:28:27

almost you're sharing, because so many leaders can be hesitant

Lee Griffith: 00:28:31

about talking about their personal life, they can feel

Lee Griffith: 00:28:35

quite vulnerable about sharing anything that's personal about

Lee Griffith: 00:28:38

themselves. And, and some tried to put this complete separation

Lee Griffith: 00:28:43

in between what they see work is and life. Was it a really

Lee Griffith: 00:28:47

conscious decision on your part to to bring your whole self or

Lee Griffith: 00:28:51

is it been an evolution?

Unknown: 00:28:53

I think it's been an evolution, but to be honest,

Unknown: 00:28:56

they are part of me, my family, my life is part of me. And if

Unknown: 00:29:00

I've come into this organization, you know, what a

Unknown: 00:29:03

privilege is to come here and be the chief executive at Gates

Unknown: 00:29:07

said, half the organization didn't choose me. They don't

Unknown: 00:29:10

know me. They work in an organization where I'm setting

Unknown: 00:29:13

the tone. And I'm asking them to follow me. Well, quite frankly,

Unknown: 00:29:18

it's rude if you don't give something of yourself back. And

Unknown: 00:29:21

you know, when I go out on the wards, and I chat to people, I

Unknown: 00:29:23

would always start by saying, how are you? How's things? Are

Unknown: 00:29:26

you all right? Just chats. I've recently went to our orthopedic

Unknown: 00:29:29

ward to find out we've got a member of staff who's 60. Soon

Unknown: 00:29:32

we're going to have a party on the ward that took up probably

Unknown: 00:29:36

half of the time that I was on the ward for I actually got to

Unknown: 00:29:39

the reason why I was there. And that wasn't me thinking I'm

Unknown: 00:29:42

going to have a false conversation and find out a bit.

Unknown: 00:29:45

I was genuinely interested in what was going on the ward and

Unknown: 00:29:47

what made them tick. And if I'm asking them questions, they've

Unknown: 00:29:50

got a right to ask me questions. So I'm coming into their life.

Unknown: 00:29:55

I'm running this organization, why can't they know about me and

Unknown: 00:29:59

who I am and the fact that I love my family and my dogs more

Unknown: 00:30:02

than anything, and I miss them terribly because I'm currently

Unknown: 00:30:05

in Gateshead in the week, and then it leads in the weekend

Unknown: 00:30:07

until we move up. So we're in the process of moving. So part

Unknown: 00:30:11

of my connecting and staying with my family is to share that

Unknown: 00:30:15

with people here. So behind me, you might see there's a calendar

Unknown: 00:30:19

on the wall. That's the Gateshead pet calendar, my pets

Unknown: 00:30:22

in there, the pet calendar come out, and we all share our pets

Unknown: 00:30:26

as an example. But also, because I write a weekly message, I keep

Unknown: 00:30:30

people updated on my move, fun, lots of help and advice as to

Unknown: 00:30:34

what we try and trying to have a conversation. We're all living

Unknown: 00:30:39

here. We're all working there. We're all life. We're all

Unknown: 00:30:41

people. Yeah, you know, I didn't know where to get my shopping. I

Unknown: 00:30:44

didn't know which taxi service to use. I don't know how to get

Unknown: 00:30:48

to places. But if you ask people, they'll tell you. Yeah,

Unknown: 00:30:51

and life becomes a lot easier when you've got some friends.

Unknown: 00:30:54

Yeah,

Lee Griffith: 00:30:55

I want a copy of this calendar. Brilliant.

Unknown: 00:30:58

Brilliant. There's dogs, cats, hamsters, all sorts

Unknown: 00:31:01

in there. If I thought I've got two tortoises as well, Barbara

Unknown: 00:31:05

and Jeff. But I didn't

Lee Griffith: 00:31:06

Harper edge. And we can't forget the tortoises.

Unknown: 00:31:09

You know, I know the Hibernate at the minute, we're

Unknown: 00:31:11

just gonna hope they survive. It's always an anxiety provoking

Unknown: 00:31:14

time. But Barbara and Jeff on in it. But Alan and Sofia,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:19

I hadn't realized that you're you're obviously

Lee Griffith: 00:31:21

doing this commute, then between Yeah, quite a distance between

Lee Griffith: 00:31:25

places. And you mentioned earlier about it can be really

Lee Griffith: 00:31:28

isolating. Yeah, being chief exec, I can imagine it's even

Lee Griffith: 00:31:31

more. So when you've got that distance. And you haven't got

Lee Griffith: 00:31:34

the people to go home to at the end of the year, for example,

Lee Griffith: 00:31:38

How are you coping with that?

Unknown: 00:31:39

I'm working too much, actually. Because it becomes

Unknown: 00:31:43

easy to just work all the time. But I've made a real effort to

Unknown: 00:31:47

try and make some friends. So I got for dinner with people, the

Unknown: 00:31:53

Northeast is a really welcoming place. So the other chief

Unknown: 00:31:57

executives on patch, a hugely supportive, hugely supportive of

Unknown: 00:32:02

me, hugely helpful to me great allies in terms of helping me to

Unknown: 00:32:07

integrate into the area very supportive of helping me find my

Unknown: 00:32:10

feet in the political arena, and socially as well, helping me to

Unknown: 00:32:15

just find myself in the Northeast, and I've joined a

Unknown: 00:32:20

yoga class, myself, and the Chief Operating Officer and the

Unknown: 00:32:23

director of people go to Hot Yoga, we're really bad. But we

Unknown: 00:32:28

do it, and we go, you know, and it's just that sort of thing to

Unknown: 00:32:31

try and not work all the time. But the fact that my family have

Unknown: 00:32:35

agreed to move up with me, which is brilliant, means soon, we'll

Unknown: 00:32:39

all be back together again. So that'd be great.

Lee Griffith: 00:32:41

Yeah, lovely. Well, I wish you all the best

Lee Griffith: 00:32:44

with French when you do that. So my final question is, what's the

Lee Griffith: 00:32:49

one piece of advice you would give someone aspiring into a

Lee Griffith: 00:32:54

chief executive role,

Unknown: 00:32:56

be comfortable with who you are, you will be tested at

Unknown: 00:33:00

every stage in your journey to becoming a chief executive, and

Unknown: 00:33:04

the pressure is huge. But if you're comfortable with

Unknown: 00:33:07

yourself, and you're comfortable with your decision making, and

Unknown: 00:33:10

you're comfortable with your framework of decision making,

Unknown: 00:33:13

and you are able to sleep at night, because you have done the

Unknown: 00:33:16

best that you can do, and you've tried your hardest and you have

Unknown: 00:33:20

supported people, then everything will be okay, one way

Unknown: 00:33:23

or another. It doesn't mean that everything will work. But you

Unknown: 00:33:27

will be able to rationalize your decisions. Because it's that

Unknown: 00:33:31

pressure of have I done the right thing, you need a set of

Unknown: 00:33:34

guiding principles that gets you somewhere. And keeping that set

Unknown: 00:33:38

of principles close to you, allows you to be successful and

Unknown: 00:33:42

navigate the journey. And that will help you to get to either

Unknown: 00:33:45

be a chief executive, or to be a good chief executive. I think

Unknown: 00:33:50

you know, I'm not yet in the arena where you'd say I'm a good

Unknown: 00:33:54

chief executive. I've not even been here a year yet. I think

Unknown: 00:33:57

time will tell but I'm gonna stick to those principles. And

Unknown: 00:34:01

love that.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:02

Well, thank you so much for your time. If people

Lee Griffith: 00:34:04

want to reach out and connect with you your online how can

Lee Griffith: 00:34:07

they find you?

Unknown: 00:34:09

Probably the best ways on Twitter or on X. Wherever

Unknown: 00:34:13

this week today. Yeah, yeah. So so I'm on Twitter. That's the

Unknown: 00:34:17

easiest, easiest way to find me. Perfect.

Lee Griffith: 00:34:20

And I will add all your details in the show notes

Lee Griffith: 00:34:23

for anyone that's interested. Well, thank you again for your

Lee Griffith: 00:34:27

time. I'm really appreciate it. Thank you. If you enjoyed this

Lee Griffith: 00:34:31

episode, please let me know on Apple podcasts or on app of

Lee Griffith: 00:34:34

choice and drop me a line over on LinkedIn. You can find me at

Lee Griffith: 00:34:38

Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the next episode in two weeks

Lee Griffith: 00:34:42

time for in the meantime, remember to sign up to my

Lee Griffith: 00:34:45

newsletter at Sundayskies.com for further insights on how to

Lee Griffith: 00:34:48

lead with impact. Until next time!