In this enriching episode of the Happiologist podcast, Dal Banwait aka The Happiologist, speaks with special guest, Reena Anand. 

They explore the world of autism, focusing on neurodivergent individuals with a lens on the Black, Asian, and ethnic communities. 

Reena shares her motivating journey as the parent of an autistic child, while enlightening listeners on essential topics like recognising neurodivergence, the importance of cultural sensitivity in its understanding, and turning perceived deficits into unique strengths. 

She shares insightful stories and practical advice on nurturing a balanced, open, and supportive environment for neurodivergent children, while emphasizing their potential to lead fulfilling lives.

Find more from Reena on this topic.

Welcome to Doing It On Purpose, your shortcut to reinventing yourself,

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I'm Dal, The Happiologist, and I am doing this on purpose.

Hi everyone, it's your pal Dal, thanks for joining our podcast.

Today we're talking about the really important topic of neurodivergence

with the spotlight on autism in Black, Asian and ethnic communities.

So, if our listeners are anything like me, when you were growing

up, you might have been taught not to settle on anything, basically.

Especially endeavours at least.

You know, we've been taught how hard our parents worked to

rebuild their lives as immigrants.

You know that we should work hard to be better and do better

and these are great values.

Don't get me wrong But what happens when we start comparing

and aren't seen as good enough?

What about when we learn differently than our peers and are not well

supported at school work or home?

So who better to impact this with than the awesome Reena Anand.

Reena is a phenomenal person And I have had the privilege of knowing

her for a few years now when we met at a book publishing event.

So Reena always has such infectious bounds of energy.

She's a lawyer and former ombudsman specializing in cases

involving vulnerable consumers.

She also has two amazingly beautiful children, the eldest of whom is autistic.

And so Reena has dedicated much of her time to educate herself around autism.

And so now she is applying this knowledge and her excellent advocacy skills as

part of her mission to promote honest conversations around autism and its impact

on Black, Asian, and ethnic communities.

So I just want to congratulate Reena first and foremost, you know, on all the

excellent work you're doing in this space.

It's so needed and I love how you are openly speaking about this and

supporting and educating, you know, hundreds of people all over the UK.

So.

I've got so many questions for you but can we start off by unravelling, you

know, neurodiversity, you know, as it is?

So, I know it's a concept that recognises and celebrates the natural diversity of

neurological differences such as autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and that these relate to,

you know, variations in brain function.

And we are seeing more of a neurodiversity movement at the moment, you know,

advocating for acceptance and inclusion of individuals with neurological differences.

But can you tell us a bit more about what neurodivergence is and a bit more

with a slant on autism and, you know, what the signs are to look out for?

Certainly.

Firstly, thank you very much for having me on.

It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

And always talking about my most favorite subject.

So neurodiversity is a word that was coined by Judy Singer.

And a lot of people hear it, but don't necessarily know what it means.

And all it literally means is neuro is brain, diverse means difference.

And we all have.

A different way that we think and process the world.

Everybody is falls under the umbrella of neurodiversity, but the way that the mind

is characterized in a particular way is then what makes it kind of labeled if you

want to call it that way as an autistic brain or an ADHD brain or something else.

So, you know, for ADHD, it might be what's termed inattentiveness or

hyperactivity or a combination of the two.

Both are quite...

you can sense my somewhat my hesitation because they're very pathological

terms and they're not exactly positive But those are that you know you

know, our language comes from medical terminology and so it is often slanted

as disorder, some sort of disorder.

And, and I think that's what the neuro diversity movement seeks to do

is actually, well, that might be the medical model, but actually the social

model says we all think differently.

We all have talents and abilities and ways in which we can leverage

those for the benefit of society.

So let's, let's start reframing how we think, but to go back to your earlier

question of how we characterize autism, I think things have moved on from the three

traits that people that would commonly be characterized as autistic to now

looking mostly at social communication being one and the other is restricted

or repetitive patterns of behavior.

And that might sound a bit academic, but in real terms, it

might be you know, difficulties and understanding in relationships

that, that reciprocity that happens.

There's a lot of.

of what we say that isn't said verbally, it's through our

actions and facial expressions.

And sometimes, if you're autistic, that can be a challenge.

And sometimes, and with regards to, say, the restricted or repetitive side of

things, things like wanting sameness, routines You know, for children, it could

be things like lining up toys, echolalia, which is when children repeat back what

they're told rather than responding in the way, say, a neurotypical child might.

And there are lots of different kind of markers.

There's no one definitive marker to say someone is or isn't autistic.

And that's why you have to look at the child's entire developmental history or

an adult's journey, what things they're comfortable with, uncomfortable with,

and kind of piece it together that way.

Wow, gosh, thanks for unpacking that.

You know, listening to what you said, I want to move a bit more

on to the diagnosis of autism.

And I understand that it's much delayed in Black, Asian and ethnic communities.

You know, so much of South Asian culture revolves around education and the child

moving up and the child doing well.

And when it doesn't fit that narrative or that paradigm, it's often misunderstood.

And I was just listening to what you were saying about You know some of the typical

traits and I, and I feel I certainly had ADHD, and especially when you talked

about inattentiveness, you know, I wasn't officially diagnosed, but, you know, I was

hyperactive too, I just couldn't focus, and I was just seen as naughty, you know,

much to my father's dissatisfaction, and the teacher, you know, did speak to my

father about it, and did flag it, and she always reassured my, my, my dad that, you

know, I was bright, especially in creative aspects, but, you He didn't understand it.

There was a lack of understanding back then.

We're talking kind of 30, 40 years back now.

You know, to be fair on his part.

So, you know, I've experienced how learning difficulties, you know,

and differences are seen from a deficit perspective in our community.

So, you know, then comes in the point around cultural stigma, making it

difficult for individuals and families to seek help or accept a diagnosis.

You know, I certainly felt that with me.

I could see my teacher, you know, one of my favorite teachers was rooting for me.

But you can see that my parents didn't really understand it.

So, you know, what's been your observations from a cultural

perspective specifically?

Gosh, there's so much I could add on this.

So I speak with a lot of, so my, my work specializes in empowerment of

people from global majority, black, Asian minority ethnic backgrounds.

And the reason for this is not only just because that's.

That speaks to my own heritage.

But because it's an underserved population of people when we look at diagnostics

and assessments, these were all created with young white boys in mind.

And so what happens is often with our children, they either get misdiagnosed

or failed diagnosis because their presentation is, is different.

due to cultural factors and lots and lots of reasons.

And that's why, you know, speaking to this particular group of people is, I

say this group, it's not a homogenous group, it's made up of so many

cultures, each of which are different.

But it's that, and it's just really important for services, for schools,

for parents to be empowered.

Yeah, to know that cultural difference because it shows up

in how parents interact with schools and local authorities.

It shows up in how children present.

So to go back to your question around cultural stigma, firstly, one of the

most common stigmas I hear, particularly from schools that I work with, bear in

mind, That over 90 percent of schools have no global majority representation

on the senior leadership teams.

Okay.

So that we could have a whole couple of separate podcasts on that, but anyway.

So that natural filter of cultural sensitivity, unless

you go out and seek it.

It's, it's not okay.

You have to, you have to really educate yourself as school leaders.

One of the most common narratives I hear is that parents don't want to engage.

They don't, they're not interested in hearing that their child's autistic or

neurodivergent and they don't want to.

I have yet to meet a single parent who I could say is, is

not all in for their child.

It's just not happened.

And I've worked with people from the most deprived parts of London.

I've worked with parents who are much more affluent right across the board

from global majority backgrounds.

I have yet to meet a single parent who is not entirely invested in their

child's education and well being.

Wow, that's worrying.

Yeah, it is a really common stigma.

And there's so many reasons for that.

There's a lack of representation in the media and services.

Like there's a pervading narrative that people maybe they don't understand because

English is not their first language and, you know, so on and so on and so on.

But, but the reality is that's not the case.

Yes, we do have to remember that there is often no history of autism or

neurodiversity in our cultures, because these were not, these are not terms

which translate into our languages.

These are, these are terms that now, and there's, you know, in some communities,

they, you hear people say they weren't diagnosed until they came to the UK.

This is UK problem.

You know, and then when you explain actually, autism has always existed.

Neurodiversity has always existed.

The only difference is we now have language around it.

And now we can actually understand our children better and use what we

know to help improve their outcomes.

And that's all it needs.

It needs that kind of Collaboration with parents, as opposed to just

judgment, really, a lot of judgment.

Self judgment, community judgment, judgment from the school, judgment

from local authorities, and it just doesn't really stop.

There is nonetheless, still, there's a lot of discomfort with sharing

with families, for example, that they've got a child who's different.

And what one of the things I do with parents is actually after we've

kind of dealt with the whole self empowerment thing, we actually practice.

with sentence, preset sentence starters, how to have that conversation with

their mother in law, aunt, whoever, elder family member that, about

their child being neurodivergent.

Because as I said, there is, these aren't conversations I've ever had

to have before and they don't have the language often to have it.

So I think the thing with the stigma is it's not one way,

is where I'm going with this.

So there's stigma that people internalize.

And they do experience, but also there is stigma outwardly in society towards

people from global majority backgrounds who are autistic or neurodivergent.

Wow, gosh, that's it's quite, I suppose it's quite upsetting to listen

to, but I think, you know, I just think how much things have moved on.

So, you know.

I was saying, what, good 40 odd years ago, I was in a similar position and obviously

it wasn't diagnosed at that point, but I feel like even with the generation, next

generation, there still seems to be issues in terms of being able to face into it

and actually recognize it as something which needs, you know, dealing with.

So I guess so much more work to do there.

And I think, you know, one of the things that I find, and I know quite

a few neurodivergent children, and I know your, your children are case in

point in this, but You know, they're quite bright and creative and they're

out of the box, you know, thinkers, you know, with, with a lot of untapped

talents, you know, such as, you know, what I've heard, you know, extensive

vocabulary, photographic memory and visual learning abilities, just to name a few.

And we know that, you know, learning disabilities can coexist with high

IQs as well, from what I understand.

So educating parents has, as you say, been an uphill battle and this

more collectivist culture and gender roles are some of the big barriers.

But.

You know, how do we get over that inertia?

Because I know you've done a lot of work in this space.

You've, you've, you've, you've moved on from your, you know, career and,

you know, really focused and honed in on developing your understanding of

this and then, you know, huge accolade to you to then share it with others.

But how do we, how do we start to move over?

To a, a more accepting view of of autism and how do we nurture that,

you know, within our communities?

That's a really interesting question.

It's such a good question.

I think as humans, we have a tendency to want to.

fix things.

We've got this perception of how things should be, how our children

should behave, how, and, and we're really, it's really important to

us what other people think of us.

And I think that's really true in many collectivist cultures.

And I certainly, I can speak to that certainly from my own

experience, my own culture.

And I think a really key component of this is instead of looking at how you

change your child or how you change other people's perception of your

child is you actually need to do the inner work first and stop and ask

yourself, how do I perceive my child?

If you are engaging in behaviors, and this, I'm not saying this out

of a place of judgment, but as, as a parent, who's been on this journey,

who is on this journey and will be on this journey for the rest of my life.

There is no end.

It's just an evolving journey.

I'm continually learning about my children and adapting to their needs.

But it's so important to self reflect and ask yourself, how do you see your child?

Because if you see your child as.

deficient in some way, then that's the message that you will, whether consciously

or not, you are going to be passing on to your child through the way you speak to

them and through how you act towards them.

If you see your child as the most beautiful gift, the most incredible

being, you know, and I say this, having been a parent who, I mean, I

was up at 4 30 this morning with one of them, you know, it's challenging.

But if you can, at the core of your being, accept your child for the unique being

they are, exactly as they are, without wanting to change them, that translates

in how you will interact with your child, but it will also massively influence

how other people see your children.

If you talk about your child from a place of shame, you're basically

giving license to other people to view your children in the same way.

So, It's not out of judgment, but we have to really reflect on when we're

saying to our children to do things or not do things, where is it coming from?

Is it coming from ego because we don't want to be seen as

parents who are ineffective?

Or is it coming from a place of, I need to enforce this particular rule or value

because it's inherent to their wellbeing.

It will safeguard them.

It is something which I need them to, you know, adopt.

To enhance their character and having that constant kind of filter in your

mind will hugely impact how you see your child, but then that will impact

how other people see your child.

I love that.

Honestly, that's really resonated with me.

I think that's beautiful.

And I think, you know, what you're saying around reframing your thinking,

because that's what you need to do.

You need to reframe yourself.

And also the point that you were saying is that children pick up on this.

So whatever they're hearing you articulate.

You know, this is labels again, isn't it?

So you start to play into that.

So when I was younger You know, people would, you know, throw around the word,

she's a bit stupid, you know, and you start to think that you are stupid

because that's what you're hearing, right?

So, you know, innately you start to believe everything you're hearing and,

and I suppose your parents, because they're seeing a certain behavior,

associate that with, you know, not being able, not being intelligent or bright.

So before you know it, you're creating this whole environment where, you know,

this language, like you say, is being used and then everyone plays into that role.

You know, your parents think in a certain way, teachers are

saying, I'll put her on there.

We used to have like a, you know like a dunce desk almost.

Honestly, that's what I think that's what it's called.

You know, where you'd all be grouped together.

So you start to believe in that.

So I love the way that you're saying about reframing and

thinking about actually how you're.

How you're talking about this.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, we talk about it every day.

Every single day I will tell him that he is the most beautiful gift

that could ever have happened to me.

Because we have to remember as well, our children who are neurodivergent.

are in a world that was not built for them.

So there are reminders everywhere that they are different.

And if we aren't careful to kind of counterbalance that with our own

positivity and view of them, themselves.

Then that feeling of being othered.

Yeah, we'll just overtake so we've got a counterbalance that we have to remind

our children Constantly and our children are also more inclined to develop other

mental health related challenges anxiety a medical medically diagnosed level So we've

got to be very conscious, very deliberate about the language that we use and, and,

and tell our children how we see them.

Don't expect it to be inferred, you know, sometimes you'll have parents, I mean,

my generation of parents is like, well, would have said, well, you know, I was

never told I was loved as a child ever.

That's just not language that we use in our house.

But if you'd said to my parents, do they love me?

They would have said, of course I do.

Don't I go out and work seven days a week for them, put food on the table.

That's all love.

But actually, we can't expect our neurodivergent children to extract

that the things that we're doing for them is out of a place of love

and have to be much more explicit.

Yeah, spot on.

And actually, just building on that point, you know, I'm just thinking about kind of

the next generation of our parents, right?

And, you know, some, some families still live with that

kind of, that next generation.

And I guess, you know, you can reframe your thinking and what you say, but

actually, you know what communities are like when they come together.

So actually, And some of them are a bit along in the tooth to want

to change their, their thinking.

So what do you suggest that, you know, you say to that more older

generation that, you know, sometimes don't think before they speak?

I don't know.

How would we deal with a situation like that?

I guess it's another full and frank conversation, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think there's, okay.

I mean, I, I, I see, I've experienced this.

I think you've got to be very intentional about where you go with your children

and whom they spend time with.

Now I'm not saying cut off ties with all your extended families and

obviously being from a collectivist family, our families are, there's

generally a lot of people around.

That's not even like blood family.

That could be just, you know, aunties, adopted aunties and things like that.

Right.

I am very careful about where I take Evy.

If, if I don't think I'm going to a neuro inclusive.

environment, I will either go myself or I will take him and be very clear about

how long I'm staying for what I'm doing.

Fortunately, I don't have to do that very much because I'm very much

in my own power when it comes to being neuro affirming and very open.

And I think when you When you are open and positive about your child's diagnosis

and their needs, actually it gives permission to other people to reciprocate.

It shows them, it role models to them how to be with your child.

But you know, my mother in law is in her mid eighties now.

She was a teacher for over 30 years and she said to me there was no, there was

no way in her entire teaching career she had an autistic child in her class.

Wow.

It was a long time ago and they probably were there.

But we didn't have the language and you know, now we've got, you know, diagnoses

and we've got actual language around this and assessments and things like this.

So it's not that they weren't there, it's just they weren't seen, but she has just

entirely embraced and it was hard for her.

very hard.

She thinks the world of is her only at that time, her only grandson.

And it took her a while to move from that deficit way of thinking

to a positive way of thinking.

But as she has done that they have, it's transformed into the most

beautiful relationship to the point where I'm happy to leave my kids with

them, and I know that they will, they will model whatever practices I do.

They've adopted neuroaffirming language.

It's a journey and we have to have a bit of compassion for our elders.

The easiest thing to do is to judge people.

Or to write them off before they've even been given a chance.

It's just the easiest thing.

But actually, think about it from their point of view.

You're introducing a concept.

They may never have heard of before.

And, and often, you know, like I said, they think it's a Western thing.

It's not, doesn't happen back home and all this.

So you've got to be a bit patient.

But actually there's also a lot of resources in different

languages, which can be helpful.

You just have to make sure that you're picking the neuro affirming ones.

But where there's a will, you know, I don't mean to sound too cliche, but

where there is that commitment to, I'm taking you on this journey because you

want to be on this journey as well.

Okay.

That's the other thing, you know, if, if someone is not interested.

Then you're going to make your decisions, right?

But if someone's actually interested, but they just don't know what

to do and how to do it, you can be that person that helps them.

And honestly, every person I've spoken to tells me that somebody in their friends

or family circle is neurodivergent.

Yeah.

But until you've shared it...

yes, then the floodgates, the floodgates open, right?

And everyone wants to share it.

So what I'm hearing from you is, is to keep them safe.

So being aware of the environments they're in and then making sure they

are safe from that kind of environment and I, and I'm similar really.

So, you know, I spoke, I speak to my dad about it now and I say, dad, I

think I was, you know, neurodivergent.

And I, you know, I think this is what I was, this is why I was a bit

troublesome when I was a child and.

You know, sometimes he laughs and he's like, Oh, you know, you just

a naughty kid, but it's still, he doesn't still quite get it.

But I was quite lucky.

So I had teachers that believed in me because when I would go on to do English

literature or art or music, you know, they'd think, wow, there's something here.

And they nurtured that in me.

And then I went on to do, you know, similar to you did my law degree,

you know, worked in corporate, you know, similar to yourself.

So.

I was able to be in that environment where it wasn't kind

of frowned upon and actually I was nurtured, so I was really lucky.

And I didn't have that diagnosis back then, but as I say, I had a very

kind of forward thinking teacher.

But, you know, what are the risks if you don't do something about it

once a diagnosis has been given?

What's the, what's the risk to the child?

I think if you've gone as far as getting a diagnosis

and I don't know any parents.

I don't think I've met parents, you know, who fall into this category, but if you

try to hide it in some way or try to pretend it doesn't exist, you're really

doing a massive disservice to the child because as parents, of course we will do

everything we can to protect our children.

And we, there's so much we can curate in our environments.

We can, we can control who they spend time with whether they go

anywhere outside of school or not, what clubs or societies they go to.

There's so much, but the reality is we're not going to be able to do that forever.

Yeah.

So part of our duty is to prepare children for the world.

And a part of that is the reality that not everyone's going to be neuro affirming.

So for me, certainly with Evy, my path is to not only build his resilience, but also

to build his ability to self advocate.

And also to understand his own needs and challenges so he can

go into an environment and say, I'm really comfortable with this.

I'm finding this really challenging.

This is what I need, or this is what I'm going to do.

And not feel in any way less than because of it.

So, if, you know, there are some parents who maybe get a diagnosis

and don't tell their child.

Now, I can't say, blanket, you know, when you should tell your child.

I told Evy when he was six.

Didn't really understand it.

I told him again when he was seven and he got it and I got some books around it

and we have lots of discussions around it and it's really just part of the way...

it's just part of our daily conversations at home.

It comes into everything.

And he's developing that ability to self advocate, but I think if you're

not looking at your, you know, even if you, if you have the diagnosis, but

you're making all of the adjustments from a needs based perspective, great.

That's fine.

Okay.

But if you have the diagnosis and then just pretend it doesn't, it's not there.

You're not helping your child, you know, by adapting your environment

to their needs, that friction, that square peg round hole analogy,

eventually, that child is going to experience some levels of trauma.

And if home is meant to be the ultimate safe place, they're not going to get what

they would get at home anywhere else.

So home should be the place where they can truly be themselves.

So we have a duty to create environments which sees our children for who they

are and creates, you know, scaffold, all that scaffolding and protection

that can nurture their beautiful talents, but also provide them with

that safety when, when they need it.

Yeah.

So take the blinkers off really.

And I think, you know, even, you know, think about Evy is

such a well rounded child.

And I think if you haven't done.

Something about it sooner he won't be as well rounded as he is.

So actually from a young age, you were able to take him on that journey.

So he's just like any other child.

But if you hadn't, and you leave it later and later, then it

becomes more and more difficult to be able to deal with, I guess.

So actually, once you are aware and you know that, you know, that they are

neurodivergent, then it actually, the sooner you can do something about it.

And, and, and you know, going back to your point around

making it acceptable for them.

So it's just a normal thing and in your environment just makes

it a little bit easy for them.

So I love that.

But specifically in autism, is there actually a known cause for autism?

And can it actually be treated?

Because a lot of, you know, Asian parents say, Oh, there's a pill for that.

Don't worry.

Take a few pills in a year's time.

Be brilliant.

But actually, is there something that's caused it?

And actually, is there something can actually treat it?

. Reena: So it's noy an illness so it doesn't need to be treated.

And I'll just myth bust the most common myth out there

that it's caused by vaccines.

It's not, there was one study that thought it wasn't, it's been widely discredited

since it's not related to the MMR at all, cannot get autism through that.

Now there continues to be research in this area.

It's something I do, you know, keep my eye on, keep my finger on the pulse off.

So far, it's believed to be a combination of environment and genetics.

Okay, so it is just an evolutionary thing.

And so rather than kind of focusing, I say to parents, focusing on where

it's come from focus on how you can really set up your child for

success so that they can thrive.

Because that would be a much better use of energy and time.

I was given lots of things, lots of advice, go to India, find a

doctor go to do head massages to reduce his hyperactivity and

you know, all sorts of things.

The, the reality is there will always be somebody out there to rip you off.

Okay.

And what I would say is, and again, not a place from a place of judgment, if

you're running for solutions, I would really ask yourself, have you accepted

that your child might be different?

And what is the, where is this fear driven reaction coming from?

What is it that you feel you're missing out on or that you're losing

because your child is different?

Because when you tackle that, reconcile yourself with the fact that your child

is different and then move, you can then move into that space of actually

celebrating them for who they are.

You know, and I feel like I've maybe not presented the most balanced

picture of my life with Evy.

You know, yes, we have our challenges, but a hundred times over, I wouldn't

change anything for the world.

You know, yes, I have broken sleep sometimes.

Yes, he gets some, you know, he's very emotional, can get upset, but my

goodness, the child is just, he's just a phenomenal human being that I can't

wait to see how he grows and develops and what gifts he gives to the world through

his very unique talents and abilities.

I love that.

And just even listening to you, you can hear that, you know, he must be in

such a great nurturing environment and that's probably going to help him grow.

So I, it's so beautiful to hear.

Again, you know, and you're talking a lot about, you know, how as a parent you feel,

so it must have been a challenge for you.

In fact, you gave up, you know a really awesome career to move

into this and to educate yourself, which again is so commendable.

I absolutely love that.

And then, you know investing all your time to help educate people.

And I think that's great, but just found the mindset piece.

So if you're a parent and you've had this news, you're trying

to deal with a lot of things.

Is there support for the actual parent?

themselves to, to be able to be supported on this.

So you've got your child, but actually until you're right to your

point and your mindset's not right, and you've got all these things in

your hand from, you know, a million messages that you've heard around,

you know, autism and what it means.

Is there anything that parents can access to get them into a place of?

So, I mean, part of the reason why I've done what I've done is because

when, when I got his diagnosis There was nowhere that saw me, the entire

person that I am, so being from an Asian background, you know, I didn't,

there weren't groups, there weren't, you know, people, even, even professionals

that I was interacting with, none of them were from my background.

And so it was really hard for me to explain what I was going through.

As the, as a daughter in law, as a mother, you know, as the parent of a

first child from an Asian background there was, there wasn't any of that.

There were lots of groups facilitated by white women, predominantly

attended by white women.

And so that's one of the reasons why I entered into doing this because

women from the global majority, and fathers too, but predominantly is, is

mothers that I, I, that tend to come to my sessions Do need that safe space.

And when you see other people like you in the room, magic happens because you

suddenly realize at a very real level that you're not alone and it's hugely

transformative and the networks they build and the, you know, things like that.

So I've got a free parent community that parents.

join, they can ask questions and building up an entire membership that,

that is intended to be free for parents that will be packed with resources,

checklists, and all sorts of things.

So that that community vibe is nurtured between full parents

from Black majority backgrounds.

Oh, I love that.

Well done you for creating those communities.

I think the more that we create these communities, the more it

becomes part of our everyday.

Language and our vocabulary, right?

And it becomes acceptable, which is what we're trying to get to a place,

I guess, is that it becomes, you know, quite rightly more acceptable.

So from what you understand, can individuals with autism, can

they go on to lead normal lives?

And what challenges might they expect as they grow?

if any?

So we live in a neuro normative society and what I mean by that is a

society that was not created and the structures weren't necessarily created

by neurodivergent people and so in a way autistic and neurodivergent people are

on the back foot because the education system, the recruitment processes for

most jobs, all of these things were not created with neuroaffirmative

practices or neuroinclusion in mind.

So, so I wouldn't say in terms of normal lives, but can they live

healthy, full, thriving lives?

Absolutely.

And I would also go as far as to say every major event in history,

every major invention, you know, huge strides in acting and the arts.

These people are often neurodivergent and if you don't believe me, you

can just type in, Google top 10 neurodivergent artists, actors,

actresses, pianists, you know, whatever.

Huge contributions made to the world, but yes, challenges are abound.

So I do a lot of work with organizations, corporate organizations, and.

To look at how you can create that neuro inclusive workplace, how you

base, you know, for a lot of neuro divergent people that can't even

get as far as the interview because the application process is just not

designed with their needs in mind.

And actually these are the sorts of challenges that if businesses

can address them and they are many are, there's lots of great examples

in society of organizations who have really sat down and looked at.

What does there have to be an interview?

What are other options?

What information can we send out ahead of an interview?

Bios and profiles, interview questions and things, just questioning

what their reasoning is behind doing things a particular way.

So yes, there are lots of challenges, but I am optimistic about the future because I

see businesses, big businesses especially, really committing time and attention to

looking at how they can really leverage on this neurodivergent challenge.

And it's not without, it's not all altruistic.

They know, and the business case has been proven read any report by

McKinsey or any of the other kind of leading people in this space.

And they will tell you, you've got a neurodivergent workforce,

a neurodiverse workforce, which includes neurodivergent people.

You're going to make more money.

So they're invested in getting this right because they know they're going

to have out of the box thinkers, productive people, you know, in ADHD

and hyper focus mode, you won't get any better less distracted person than them.

Right.

So they know, and they're trying, they also trying to tap into that.

So I'm optimistic.

I always remain optimistic.

Yeah.

Well, quite rightly from what you say in some of the stats that you've

said and actually examples of it.

And I, and I love it, you know, from the start of this session you know,

even up until now, I'm thinking it feels like a gift almost, right?

So, you know, we're moving from this kind of real negative.

You know, thinking to actually seeing it as a gift and actually repositioning how

we talk about it in that way, because that's what it absolutely sounds like.

So I think that's phenomenal.

You know, what about access to services?

So you mentioned some of them and certainly the great stuff that

you're doing around communities.

But, you know, especially in, you know, Black, Asian, ethnic communities.

I guess things like, you know, economic factors geographical location you know,

systemic inequalities, they exist.

Let's have it right.

But, you know, how do, how do people navigate this, you

know, in these communities?

It's really challenging but that's the truth.

So if you are from a black, Asian minority ethnic background and you

have a learning disability you are 20 percent likely to die sooner than a

white person with a learning disability.

There are health inequalities and I know that autism is not a learning disability,

but it's just to kind of highlight the point around the discrepancy and the

differences there between, you know, health outcomes, but often people there

are, there is often a correlation to between some health learning disabilities

and neurodivergent conditions.

Basically, the more you have deprivation and you have Multiple

protected characteristics.

So if you are from the LGBTQ + community, plus you are from a global majority

community, plus you are a woman, plus you have a disability, plus, you

know, all of those things together.

If you have a lower level of education, these things will all make it much more

challenging and provide, you know, less access to resources and the right levels

of support And this is, you know, I see this, I'm working on various projects

with the NHS and the data is startling on the, the life experience of people

from those backgrounds versus say, you know, the white British population.

I think, you know, the only thing we can do is continue to.

Not just investigate because we've seen the data, you know, NHS data, they've been

recording this for the last five years and it's consistently showing disparities.

So we've seen the difference, but it's actually what's the action

that's happening behind it.

And actually we all have the ability to do something, even if that, even if

that something is us educating ourselves on where there are Where people are

marginalized, familiarizing ourselves with what that marginalization looks

like in those communities, because often maybe these aren't people that

we are familiar with or in our circles.

And then using our voice and using our privilege, because we all have some

level of privilege to help to not just amplify the voice, but to create some

equity for people from these backgrounds.

So there's, there's a, there's a lot of access to, you

know, lots of different avenues.

I guess it's just taking advantage of it, I suppose.

So it's not, it's not for there being the education and the support there.

It's, it's, it's about actually tapping into it.

So, you know, this brings me on to, you know, you do so much work in this space.

It's such brilliant work.

And, you know, going back to our point, you know, educating

parents, you know, schools, organizations, you've got all this.

What are the typical common questions you get asked about?

You know autism, you know, what are the standard types of questions

and you know, what's your response?

So probably one of the most common questions is how do I tell

my family that my child's autistic?

That's what that's really common.

And I would that's when I would start as I mentioned before about okay Well,

we need to talk about how you see your child's autism first before we start

talking about how you're going to talk to other people about it the other question

I often get is my child's I feel like my child's addicted to screen time.

How can I, you know, and if I remove their , iPad or, you know, they, all their phones,

they just completely have a meltdown.

And so it's, firstly, providing a bit of reassurance because for a lot of

neurodivergent children, using, having screen time is a form of regulation.

Self regulation.

And when we see it as a tool for self regulation, bearing in

mind, of course, as parents, we look at what is it they're doing.

Is it something that's going to inflame them and, you know, kind of agitate them?

Or is it something more calming?

So if I take my own, you know, children, so mine love to look at YouTube

videos on creating art, quilling, harma beads, that kind of thing.

Now, if they were, if it was a video game type scenario.

Which was particularly violent, then yes, I'm going to have

something to say about that.

And that might be iPad time or screen time that I restrict to a particular

time, you know, work with them to agree a certain time and place.

But, you know for them, I recognize that they need that to do.

to just process that, that busyness of the day they've had, which is

much more exhausting for them than it is for a neurotypical child.

So a lot of it is parents, I think, comparing their children to what they,

what they envision a neurotypical child should be doing and then

worrying, you know, about that.

And there's variations of that.

My child doesn't sleep.

My child doesn't eat, you know, and it's like, well.

Yeah.

So a lot, I guess a lot of the questions that you've asked is kind of coming out

fear more than anything else but kind of like reinforcing actually, you know,

even the things that you were saying about, you know, the Google top 10 top

100, you know you know, people that are super smart, actually, I think it's

just relaying that again, isn't it?

And saying, actually, did you know, because, you know,

I'm quite astounded by that.

So I think just that, that forms part of that kind of whole assurance

piece, isn't it?

I had one parent once, I'll just share with you quickly.

She said to me my child, when she's dysregulated, she crawls under

the bed and I'm really not happy.

I was, and I said, okay, why?

She said, oh, because it's not normal to crawl under a bed.

So we just sat there with that.

And I said, okay, what's your child doing?

So she's , you know regulating herself while she's under there and then

when she's regulated, she comes out.

Okay.

And the problem with that is..?

and there was a long pause and she was like, nothing.

It's just different.

Your child's able to self regulate and they do it that way?

That's a remarkable, actually, you know, we all, you know, do things, there's

so many things we do to self regulate.

Yeah.

We don't even recognize and other people don't recognize because

society sees it as usual . I might twirl my hair, flick my pen, take

10 deep breaths, run on the spot.

No one's going to say anything about that because she's crawling

under a bed and you don't see other people crawling under their bed.

You see that as.

wrong in some way.

So we've just got to just be aware of our judgments of our children and

their behavior and really just ask ourselves, is it helping or harming them?

Or is it showing up?

Yeah.

Oh, that's a, that's a whole separate topic.

We'll have to go in at some point.

But I think ego does have a massive, massive part to play,

certainly in our communities.

You know, if we're honest about it, I could unpack this forever with

you, because it's so interesting, you know, all the Various bits of

information you've given, honestly, are going to have such impact.

So thank you for that.

But, you know, as you know, I'm a happiologist.

So always keen to ask this question when I have wonderful guests

like yourself on the podcast.

So knowing what you know now, what would you say the key to happiness is?

I would say, finding your purpose.

Yes.

And, and, you know, that doesn't have to be some great,

big, grand, save the world thing.

But what is it that you can do, or do, which makes you really feel aligned?

That makes you feel like, When you get out, out of bed in the

morning, you really want to do it.

And I have to say for the first time in my life, I didn't know, I didn't

know it was a feeling one could even have actually felt very academic to

me, but I only realized when I started this work that I'd found my purpose.

Wow, I love that.

And, you know, he taught you on that journey, right?

So he taught you on to kind of find your purpose.

Yeah, and I tell him all the time, and I say to him, I'm so grateful

because you, you have lifted my life.

You have given my life a meaning I didn't know it had.

You had to show me that path.

Yeah, and he'll say you're welcome.

What a beautiful, I love that.

I love the fact that you acknowledge it.

That's just amazing.

And then one more kind of quick fire question is, you know, if you knew

then what you do now, what would you tell your 20 year old self?

I'd say it's okay to be different.

And then if we could really go a bit further than actually, you can really

utilize your difference to be your USP and anchor your power in that difference

and, and really use it to the best of your ability to enhance your own and other's

lives, be okay with being different.

Yeah.

And we are now in a society that's just going to grow where we are, we

are able to celebrate our differences.

And, you know, I absolutely love that.

So I'm going to ask a question on behalf of everyone that's listening.

Where can we find out more about you?

You know, I, I guess you you do workshops, you know, I know you do some

brilliant blogs and podcasts in the past.

How can we, how can we find out more about you?

So all my social media links and email, everything is on

my website, which is ReenaArnand.

com.

Yeah.

If you click on any of the Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn icons on that, it

will take you straight to that page.

And you can even drop me an email as well at hello at ReenaArnand.

com.

Oh, brilliant.

Thank you for that.

As I say, look Reena, huge thank you so much.

Thank you for sharing your story.

Thank you for sharing, you know how you've gone through this journey

yourself and giving us some reassurance.

There's a lot I took away there, especially around, you know, getting

to a place of reframing our thinking around this, you know, making sure that

we're supportive and we're creating a safer environment, you know, to be able

to support our children around this.

Being more open about it, the more that we talk about it more openly, the more

we'll be able to create communities and we can kind of normalize this,

which is exactly where we should be.

And we really need to kind of seek to shift the conversation

from this deficit based approach.

To one that really embraces, you know, and accommodates

neurodivergent, you know, individuals.

So, I'm sure we'll get to that place with wonderful humans like yourself that

are, you know, fighting for that cause.

I'm sure that we'll get there.

So, thank you so much.

Thank you for being on the podcast today.

Thank you to all our listeners, and I wish you all love and light.

Thanks for tuning in, lovely listeners.

Any questions or thoughts?

Drop me an email and follow me on my social media to stay connected

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