Anodized Aluminum 101 with Park Kersman

Episode 76 • 8th March 2023 • Construction Disruption • Isaiah Industries

Park Kersman:

What aluminum will do in nature is, it'll rust to that powdery white and then it seals itself. And what we're doing with the anodizing process is we're building that translucent oxide layer to a much, much thicker level, which protects the aluminum, it stops the oxidation process, and it retains that look for the test of time.

Todd Miller:

: 00:00:36

Welcome to the Construction Disruption podcast, where we uncover the future of building and remodeling. I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah Industries, a manufacturer of specialty metal roofing and other building materials. Today, my co-host is Seth Heckaman. Seth, how are you doing today?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:00:54

Doing well, Todd. How are you?

Todd Miller:

: 00:00:56

Doing well also. So you and I are both thinking a lot recently about our upcoming Metal Roofing Summit that will be held in beautiful and convenient Dayton, Ohio, April 25th through 27th at the University of Dayton Marriott, which is a great facility. You've been hard at work arranging speakers and sponsors and all that type of stuff. Any teasers you can give us as far as what we can expect to hear and learn at the Summit this year?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:01:27

Yeah, absolutely. One of the most fun parts of planning the event every year is connecting with industry experts and trying to put a lineup together to bring the most timely and value-laden content we can to folks and really excited about who we've put together this year. That lineup includes you, Todd, talking about how to leverage the entire organization to create a premier sales experience for your customers. We have a few other folks as well. A number of other folks, but just a couple of them. The event's going to be kicked off and opened by Rick McIntyre, who's a great high-energy, positive guy who will be inspiring us to level up our leadership, to lead our organizations through whatever next challenges we will face coming out of this entering in this post-COVID world. And with all sorts of other things being talked about out on the horizon, definitely going to be timely and powerful. Rick works currently with one of the largest Renewal by Anderson networks in the country and then comes out also has experience with Dave Yoho Associates and the Champion organization. So he's going to be able to really speak so directly to what our attendees are going to be facing and challenges they're going to be leading through. So really excited about Rick. And then also, I know anyone who attended last year is going to be excited to hear that Megan Beattie's going to be joining us again. She is quickly becoming kind of renowned in our industry for an expert on marketing appointment setting and then marketing specific to some of these guerilla marketing tactics like canvassing and shows and events. Last year, she trained us on appointment setting best practices. This year she will be focusing more on show and event marketing, which I think is going to be really timely. We're already getting some real positive feedback on recent, kind of early season home shows. So knowing that those opportunities are going to be coming back here for lead generation. We're seeing some other methods of lead generation kind of fall off in performance. So I think that's going to be really helpful. A number of our attendees from last year actually brought Megan in over the course of the last year after the Summit as a consultant and for some additional training for their organization. So definitely an indication of how valuable they thought she was the first time around. So again, those are just a couple of the folks we have lined up, and I'm sure we'll talk about others in future episodes, but going to be a great opportunity. Like you said, April 25th through 27th in Dayton, and anyone can learn more at metalroofingsummit.com.

Todd Miller:

: 00:04:01

Awesome. Thank you. And this year we are going to have our host returning, I believe, Mr. David McCreary. Yeah, he's a lot of fun and brings a lot of energy and just fun to the whole thing, so looking forward to it. Thank you for all your work on putting that together, looking forward to it. So one thing I do want to clue our audience in on before we introduce our guests today is that, once again we will be doing our challenge words. So both Seth and I and also our guest have a special challenge word that we are going to try to naturally and seamlessly work into the conversation at some point so you, the listeners, can be listening, try to figure out what that word might be. And at the end we will announce what our words were and our success or lack thereof on working them into the conversation. So let's dive into things. I'm excited about today's episode. Today's guest is Park Kersman. Park is president of Lorin Industries, which is based in Muskegon, Michigan. Lorin Industries is a privately owned company that does something incredibly unique, whereas oftentimes when we think of the anodization process on aluminum, we think of anodizing various shaped parts such as extrusions. But these folks do the unique thing of anodized aluminum when it is still in coil form or when it is in coil form. So this whole process of there's dramatically opens up the possibilities for anodized aluminum in construction applications in particular, and we're hopeful to see more of their product in our industry in future years. So we're excited to discuss that today and to talk about Lorin Industries and the future of anodized aluminum. Park, thank you so much for joining us today on Construction Disruption.

Park Kersman:

: 00:05:55

Well, thank you for including me, Todd. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

Todd Miller:

: 00:05:59

Fantastic. Well, it's interesting, as you and I have gotten to know each other in recent years to a significant degree, I think you and I kind of have similar stories, both kind of growing up in or around or with family-owned businesses. And I always love hearing stories like that. Can you share with us a little bit about the history of Lorin Industries? If I recall right, it was started by your grandfather. And then maybe tell us a little bit about what your capabilities are today.

Park Kersman:

: 00:06:28

Sure, happy to. So, Lorin was started back in 1943 by my grandfather, Herb Kersman. And Herb was a chemist from Ohio, so your neck of the woods. He was a farmer and he ended up getting his chemistry degree in Detroit, and he found an opportunity to become more involved in the metal finishing industry in Muskegon. It was a very small plating business in Muskegon, and so he came up to work for a gentleman that was, actually he didn't realize it, but was actually looking to retire soon. And so when Herb came up to Muskegon, he had been for a few months and the owner of the business said, Herb, I'm really not interested in working anymore, would you be interested in buying the company? And over a handshake deal, the company was transitioned to my grandfather and so he quickly, it was a metal plating business and he knew the opportunities for anodizing. So he quickly saw that batch anodizing was in his future. It wasn't until the early fifties that he recognized that coil anodizing might be an opportunity for the industry. And so what he did, along with a number of engineers and customers, is start looking at what the possibilities could mean for the industry as a pre-finished anodized product. So it caught on as we're still here today and fortunate to be continuing to grow in the industry. It was found to be very useful and and in a lot of different markets, which I can go into a little more detail later in the discussion. But we were fortunate to begin expanding the capabilities of coil anodizing to include coloring and getting into industries such as automotive, appliance building and construction, electronics. And so the market started to recognize, wow, pre-finished anodized really has a place in a lot of these industries because it means we can have the finished product, make the part and we don't have to do any more finishing. It can be applied as it is. So I was fortunate to get involved in the late nineties after being involved with the timber industry and then the automotive industry. I came to Lorin and it was like coming home. After living and experiencing Lorin Industries with my dad and my grandfather, really recognizing how much I enjoyed the business and and what comes with it. The people, of course, are the best part. It was great to come back to Lorin and start working in the operations capacity initially. So it over time I worked in operations as a supervisor and then in quality, then in customer service, then in sales and in marketing. So I got to know the business very, very well and I recognized that it's a learning process to this day and it's quite enjoyable.

Todd Miller:

: 00:09:51

Very cool. Your story and my story are a lot of like and that, you know, our family didn't thrust us into top leadership from the beginning. We kind of started, you know, on the plant floor and worked our way through various operations. And so that's very, very cool. So as I listen to your story, one of the things I thought about was, unless I'm mistaken, so coil coating, which is applying paint to metal and coil form, I believe was really kind of a postwar thing developed in the mid to late forties. And I think it may have been originated here in Ohio, if I'm not mistaken. So everything your grandfather was doing, you even just doing things in continuous coil form, was really on the cutting edge at the time. So very, very cool stuff. And yes, then when I think about that time period, to my mind goes to some midcentury modern products that used anodization, even drinkware and some tableware and different things. So yeah, some kind of cool stuff to think about.

Park Kersman:

: 00:10:54

Yes.

Todd Miller:

: 00:10:54

So you already kind of reflected on it, but here you are, third-generation leading a family business. Can you reflect a little bit on what that means to you? And you mentioned the importance of your team members and I think your company, like ours, probably has a lot of team members who have some pretty good tenure under their belts. Just kind of reflect on what that means to you.

Park Kersman:

: 00:11:19

That's really the entire culture and the people are what make the business. And we're so fortunate to have such dedicated employees that work hard to really maintain that value that goes to the marketplace. It's exciting because anodizing is more than a science, it's a science and an art. It really takes some open-minded thinking to get the process right. There's so many variables with anodizing and then continuous coil anodizing, and it just adds to the to the list of variables to get it right. And so it really takes for someone to get up to speed at Lorin, It takes at least a couple of years. I just had lunch with a a gentleman that was retiring after 37 years, and it was painful to see him go because as a good friend and just a massive contributor to the organization from the standpoint of his knowledge and skillset and commitment. And he was one that that trained a lot of our newer employees. And I was so pleased that he could be a part of that because it's passing that culture along. We are very family-oriented and we enjoy what we do and it's it truly is the the people that make up this business. The machines only respond to the things that we tell them to do.

Todd Miller:

: 00:12:54

Very neat. Well, let's dig into anodization a little bit. I think it's a word that most people are really kind of familiar with, but very few actually know what it is or what the process is. I know that over the years I've even had architects and engineers throw the word of anodized out to me, and when I dig I find that it's just a word they know. They really don't know what it is. Can you explain to us a little bit about the process and ultimately what it does to the surface of the metal?

Park Kersman:

: 00:13:22

Yeah, absolutely, it's both a science and an art. And so a lot of people, as you say, Todd, have heard about anodizing, but a lot of people think it's a coating and it is not a coating at all. What is happening, it's an electrochemical process, and what's happening is we're growing an oxide layer from the aluminum alloy itself to become aluminum oxide, which is basically very similar to the components of a sapphire. So it's very, very durable, but it's part of the metal itself. It's not a layer. It becomes an integral part of the aluminum itself, which causes it to be extremely durable. When you think of chipping, flaking, peeling, it just it can't happen because it is a part of the metal itself. A lot of people try and think of, when you when you talk of oxidation, you think rust and generally speaking, that's what oxidation is. Well, we're doing it in a controlled fashion. So if we were to allow aluminum to just rust in nature, it would be a powdery white. It would turn the aluminum white, as you know. And in our process, what we're doing in this controlled environment is we're growing it from the aluminum substrate to where it's translucent. So it's, you see the metal underneath, which is what gives it the character that we're trying to achieve with different looks.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:14:49

Interesting. So once it gets out into the world as a finished good, I think you mentioned most people are going to think about oxidization as rust. And then, you know, with rust in mind that that's some ongoing process that's going to be an issue down the road. But in this instance, with anodization, once it's out of the catalyst on the line and out as a finished good, that process is stagnated. Nothing else happens from there?

Park Kersman:

: 00:15:14

Correct. Now, I'm glad you brought that up because what aluminum will do in nature is, is it'll rust that powdery white and then it seals itself. So aluminum is self-healing. And what we're doing with the anodizing process is we're building that translucent oxide layer to a much, much thicker level, which protects the aluminum, it stops the oxidation process. So it's completely done and it retains that look for the test of time. We still have projects that went up for over 40 and 50 years where they they look like they did the day they were hung on the wall. So it's kind of neat to see how durable the surface is. And on top of it, you look at a process and a lot of people think of chemical processes, dangerous chemicals. Anodizing is a very clean process. So not only are that are we able to neutralize all the chemicals that we use in our process as well, we recycle many of them so we can use them multiple times in our process. All of our waste is very green. It goes right to the wastewater treatment facility to be recycled, and our solid waste is basically aluminum oxide. So it's a very green process.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:16:39

Very interesting. So you mentioned those durability benefits of chipping, cracking, flaking. What are some other qualities or and results of anodization? You know, what sort of rhyme or reason would someone have to use anodization over a painted product?

Park Kersman:

: 00:16:55

Well, as I mentioned, with that durability comes the fact that it's, a lot of times when you look at a coating, if you get something in between the substrate and the coating, what happens is is called creeping. So there's nothing that's been found to stop that creeping effect, which leads to blistering and chipping and flaking and peeling. With the anodizing, if there were to be a scratch through the oxide layer, it stops right there because there's no way to get between the oxide and the aluminum because they're integral, they're all one. So this makes it very valuable in a lot of different applications that allow for that durability to persist with weathering, with any types of damage that could occur for one reason or another. You know that the the rest of that product is completely protected and you don't have to worry about the oxidation process starting and continuing to cause imperfections throughout the material that's in play.

Todd Miller:

: 00:18:04

So historically, what are some items and ways in which anodization has been used? And I, I know earlier you referenced batch anodization versus the continuous coil process. You know, what are some of the types of products that people may be seeing anodization being used? And again, maybe not aware of it because anodization is this word that they know, but they don't exactly know what it means. And how would someone identify those parts and look at something and say, Oh, that's got to be anodized aluminum?

Park Kersman:

: 00:18:37

Sure. Well, one thing that is very difficult to replicate when it comes to anodized aluminum is you get the natural look at the metal. So you're looking through that translucent layer and you're really seeing the qualities of the metal itself, which the paint has tried to replicate that. And then you just, you can't do it because it's a natural surface with the translucent oxidized layer. You get a three dimensional look. So it's very useful in a lot of different products. You'll see it on exterior architecture. We've been fortunate to be involved with the Louisiana Superdome, the entire exterior of the Superdome is Lorin anodized material. We were fortunate to be a part of a recent structure called the the Olympic and Paralympic Museum, which is out at Colorado Springs. You can see just, it's difficult in photos because you don't get to see that three dimensional effect that happens when light hits it at different angles. But you can see the metal, you can see the metallic look, and it really preserves the unique characteristics of that metallic look. Beyond that, Todd, we do supply a lot of different other building products, such as ceiling panels or column covers. And roofing is another product that has become more popular with anodized aluminum. So we're seeing the impact that natural look and natural product can have in different markets, market segments. And as you look at the characteristics and capabilities of that protective oxide layer, coastal applications are another application that come to mind no matter what it's used for. That oxide layer is very protective to prevent any problems with the material.

Todd Miller:

: 00:20:38

Very good. Well, I've told the story I think, to you already and and I've told it to countless people. This past summer I was over in Columbus, Ohio, and my wife and I pulled over at a gas station, to gas the car. And I looked across the street and there's a library and it has wall panels on it that were obviously I knew it was your company's anodized coil that was used to make the panels. And you know, it was a really deep, rich bronze color, which isn't necessarily what we think of when we think of, okay, I can see the metal through it. You start to think silver and so forth. But to boot on this project, they had blended three different colors of panels together and just absolutely beautiful. And I don't think my wife was quite as smitten by it as I was, but I looked at it for quite a while. So I know that Lorin has a number of standard colors you developed and you know, you even have the option of sometimes creating custom colors. Can you tell us a little bit about how that coloring process is achieved? Again, realizing it's not a coating, it's actually in the metal, so very different than a painted surface. So tell us a little bit about that.

Park Kersman:

: 00:21:49

That's a great question, Todd, and I love the fact that that you appreciated that, look, it's a lot of fun to work with architects and create unique colors, and we do. Our color range is continuously changing from the standpoint of what we need to match and how we need to match product colors. And that's become a real focus of ours to match different colors depending on what that unique look is for the architect or the designer or the customer. But a couple different processes. And as I mentioned, the aluminum oxide layer is a crystalline structure. So there are pores in the oxide layer that is built on to the aluminum. And before we seal it, we can introduce colors and by doing that we can use absorption dyes which are organic dyes or inorganic dyes. We also have a two-step electrolytic coloring process that actually plates color into the pores. And so this process will give us a wide range of UV stable colors that help give it that three dimensional look, since it's not a color that's just being applied to the surface, it's actually being applied into the pores of the material. So that adds to the depth of that three dimensional look that you get and you still get the qualities, the look of the material beneath the oxide layer. So we just as an example, some of the colors we've been able to do, we've matched theCoca-Cola, red, blue. We could even produce colors that would match the the color of a raspberry if we needed to.

Todd Miller:

: 00:23:37

That is awesome.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:23:38

When did that innovation come about? Was that something your grandfather was working on 80 years ago, or when when in time was that available?

Park Kersman:

: 00:23:46

My understanding of color being introduced to anodized aluminum is a bit before Lorin, but it was my understanding was, someone actually spilled some coffee on some anodized aluminum and it stained the aluminum because it introduced some color to the pores and sealed it at the same time because they couldn't get it off. So I don't know if that's true or not, but it's interesting because we are introducing different colors to the pores. And what we've been able to do over the years is really refine that process. So it didn't start that way, it was very basic when we began coloring that the product, but it's become much more of a science to us now and the way we measure color. So it's a we test everything at our lab to ensure that we're we're putting the proper process on the line. But then on top of that, we measure everything beyond just the eye. And the eye is important, that's got to be one of the measuring tools, but you also have to have color meters that measure the L, A, and B value of colors. And so we're we're looking at many different facets of how we manage the colors through the process. And the unique aspect of of our process is we're able to keep that consistency. So we've really, really focused on how do we manage the consistency of the product from the beginning of the line all the way to the end to ensure that the customer is getting what they asked for and they can rely on that throughout the order for their job?

Todd Miller:

: 00:25:25

So I'm going to throw in something here. Completely non sequitur, although as we talked about coloring, it reminded me of it. So back in probably the thirties, forties, fifties, kind of a thing that was kind of a trend was hammered aluminum dinnerware and plates and decorative plates. And I know that Seth thinks I was right there with Herb in the forties and I wasn't quite. But most of us my age remember growing up and our grandparents had some of these decorative aluminum plates. Well, kind of, and they would anodized them after they would do the hammering, so they would do batch anodization. And oftentimes they were silver, but sometimes they were gold and blue and other colors. And so there was a guy who became pretty famous for that out of Pennsylvania named Arthur Armor, and he was quite famous for it. And his son, Thomas Armor, actually bought a roof from us several years ago and gave me some of his dad's work. And they're trying to kind of carry on what his dad was doing with these anodized aluminum pieces. So anyway, again, non sequitur, but thinking back over the years, your company and even you have seen a lot in this industry over the years and I often kind of poke fun at the construction industry as being fairly slow to change. I mean, drywall is an example. Drywall was developed postwar and it really hasn't changed much in all that time. Do you think that our industry, construction industry shows hope of becoming a little bit more quick to change and adopt new technologies? And hopefully that will play well for you folks then too.

Park Kersman:

: 00:27:08

No, a great question, Todd, and that's something we've been fortunate to experience opportunities globally, and so we get to see different types of designs. Structures go in in China and Europe and Australia and different places and each of them have a different perspective of architecture. And I think you're right, I think its construction, changes in construction have been slow and there haven't been a lot of adopting of new technologies. And even though anodized aluminum, it's been around for a while, there's the opportunities have really largely been undiscovered. So we look at it as our jobm being one of very few, that really we're the only ones that anodize the way that Loren anodizes. And so we have a unique approach. And being one small company from Muskegon, Michigan, we have to work hard to help educate the marketplace on the opportunities for anodized aluminum. It's a wonderful product and we've been very fortunate to be able to get in front of world renowned architect like Zaha Hadid and Jeanne Gang and Frank Gehry and really have the benefit of working with their organizations to create new and different architectural structures. And so that's been an education for us as well as for them. And we love it when we have the opportunity to present in front of an architect and you can see the light bulb go. You can see them recognize that there are many opportunities for anodized aluminum with what they do. And from there it's just a lot of fun to help continue that, to bring them closer to understanding anodized aluminum and work with them and their associates to define what the possibilities could be with the forming of the aluminum, the different applications. And what does that mean to them? How is it going to react in the environment? What is it going to look like and certain profiles. So we really work hard to identify ways that we can show them what the results could be. And so that's the fun part is the development, the design and the the education. And the education goes both ways.

Todd Miller:

: 00:29:45

Well, I know one of the things that has impressed me about you folks in the time that we've worked together is, you always are pushing the envelope in terms of technology and seeing where all this can go. And you're also playing a very proactive role in in that education piece. And we talked earlier about how a lot of folks are familiar with this word anodization, even though they may not understand it. But the interesting thing is that they always think very highly of the word and the process, even if they don't understand it. And that's one thing that's always impressed me. I mentioned, you know, I've had engineers and architects ask me about it, and they truly believed it to be the cat's meow, even though they they really didn't understand it at all. But it was good, what a great starting point that is. So I'm kind of curious and you and I have talked a tiny bit about this, but do you think there's potential for other metals to be anodized rather than just pure solid aluminum?

Park Kersman:

: 00:30:45

Well, aluminum is really the primary, but zinc can be anodized and titanium can be anodized. It's unusual, it's much more common to have aluminum anodized because it the way it grows that oxide layer and it's aluminum, as you know, it's used in so many different applications. I mean, you think about the variations that you get in on an aircraft that's flying at 30 or 40,000 feet. The temperatures, the variations, the pressures, all these different things. Aluminum is very, very useful in a lot of different applications. It's a strong material and it's a lasting material. And so, you know, you add the anodized, which again, is is another aspect of aluminum that goes into the aerospace industry. A lot of parts and pieces are anodized because of its strength, because of its lasting ability. But that's outside of a lot of the visuals. So people don't typically see it. So a lot of the applications that we're selling into are very visual. And so we're we're sort of going down a different path, if you will, than a lot of what anodizing has been in in the past because of the usefulness of the different aluminum alloys and the anodizing. On top of that, I think the potential for growth in many markets is there. Clearly, it's a matter of helping people understand what the opportunities are for anodized aluminum and really working with them to define what the potential is. And and again, we look at that as as a big part of our responsibility to help the market understand what the value can be for them and their customers.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:32:43

Interesting. We actually just got a request here last week for one of our roofing panels in a pre-patinated copper option. I'm curious, have you ever, as Lorin ever experimented with copper in any crossover of your process to offer some sort of expedited patination? People want that green, but they don't want to wait 15 years.

Park Kersman:

: 00:33:05

So that's a great question, Seth, and I'm glad you asked that because part of what we manufacture and sell is, is the stability. So it's not going to oxidize. And you look at copper and that's what happens with copper when it turns green or brown or black, that's the oxidation of copper. And so we have had customers come to us and say, Look, can you provide us with a product that has that consistently inconsistent look and we kind of go cross-eyed? Like, what does that mean? And we've worked for 70 years to make something very, very consistent and we've done very well at it. But we accept the challenge, which is what caused us to develop our AnoZinc® product. Our AnoZinc® product has slight variations and striations in it, and it's been used on a number of different architectural projects and it's absolutely beautiful. It has the look of zinc and it has the striations of zinc, but from the performance standards, it performs like aluminum, like anodized aluminum. So when you get the look, it doesn't change. It maintains that striation, the slight change of colors. We're also working on that with a lot of our other products. So we're in the process of developing what we call the stressed metal look. And so we've got a number of new products that we think will answer those requests for the weathered look that they can retain. So if they want, like a particular weathered look, then we can make that and they get to keep that as opposed to it continuing to change. And that's the challenges that you'll see with a lot of those materials. Copper as an example. Copper turns green only in certain environments.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:34:59

Sure.

Park Kersman:

: 00:34:59

But it turns brown in other environments or black in other and it just depends on where it's being placed. So for those that like that green oxidation look that you have to be in a certain place to get that and it takes some time. What we're working to do is provide that look and allow the customer to keep that look.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:35:20

Very exciting, great point. The customer has no control over it once it gets out, you know, and begins that weathering process. So very interesting.

Todd Miller:

: 00:35:29

You know, we think about aluminum on the envelope of the building and we tout its durability and you mentioned marine environments and so forth. But, you know, one of the other things we talk a lot about in terms of aluminum on a building envelope is energy efficiency. Anything you can kind of comment on that in terms of the use of anodized aluminum to create more energy efficient buildings?

Park Kersman:

: 00:35:54

Absolutely. So beyond the advantages of metal roofing, which make attaching the solar, that's that's one option that certainly it has, our clear and silver-white products they have solar reflectance values that exceed those of paint. And what this means is that more of the heat is reflected away from the roof. Thus, reduced heat load just means that the the HVAC systems can be either downsized or reduced in use, which saves money, less energy. It just, as an additional benefit, less heat absorption means we reduce the heat island effect. So it's reflecting that heat as opposed to absorbing it. So that reduces the ozone effects as well.

Todd Miller:

: 00:36:45

Yeah. You know, a couple of the things that we hear about all the times in terms of what property owners and also designers want to accomplish with buildings is, you know, they want lower operating costs going forward because they know energy bills are going to keep escalating. And then we also find they're asking for environmental benefits of the products. And they're also looking for products that are going to be more resilient to extreme or changing weather patterns. And, you know, we certainly find that aluminum just meet those needs exceptionally well. Well, Park, this has been great, very informative and helpful. We're kind of close to wrapping up the business end of things here. Curious, is there anything you haven't had the opportunity to share with our audience that you'd like to share?

Park Kersman:

: 00:37:33

Well, I'd just like to say that the opportunities for anodized aluminum just continue to expand and we are certainly happy to participate and we need to participate in the education to the market. We've been very fortunate to be a part of the Metal Construction Association and the Metal Roofing Association, which are wonderful organizations that promote that education, that promote the use of all materials. And that's what it takes. And so we're certainly proud to be a participant in those and value all those relationships that enable us to take the market forward.

Todd Miller:

: 00:38:15

Very good. Well, thank you again. Well, before we close out, I do have to ask you something that we ask all of our guests here on Construction Disruption, and that's if you'd like to participate in what we call our rapid fire questions. So Park, these are seven questions. Some are a little silly, some a little more serious. All you got to do is give a quick answer to each. And our audience needs to understand, if Park is willing to risk it and agree to this, he has no idea what we're about to ask. So are you up to the challenge of rapid fire?

Park Kersman:

: 00:38:45

I'm ready. Let's try it.

Todd Miller:

: 00:38:47

Awesome. Seth and I will alternate asking questions. Seth, you want to go first?

Park Kersman:

: 00:38:53

Sure.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:38:53

Okay, here we go. Question number one. What was the first car you ever owned?

Park Kersman:

: 00:39:00

A Volkswagen Beetle.

Todd Miller:

: 00:39:03

Awesome.

Park Kersman:

: 00:39:05

1968 Volkswagen Beetle.

Todd Miller:

: 00:39:08

Oh, my goodness. Wish you still had that.

Park Kersman:

: 00:39:11

I do, too. It was a great car. I had never seen and since then, a car that had a semi automatic transmission. Have you ever even heard of that?

Todd Miller:

: 00:39:22

No.

Park Kersman:

: 00:39:23

So, when you shifted, you'd put pressure on the shifter, which put it into neutral, allowing you to shift that. There was no clutch. No foot clutch. It was all very, and sometimes it didn't work, which was a problem, but most of the time it did, very unique.

Todd Miller:

: 00:39:41

No, I've never heard of that. Interesting.

Park Kersman:

: 00:39:43

It was a great car.

Todd Miller:

: 00:39:44

Well, question number two. This is one of our more serious ones. What would you like to ultimately be known for at the end of your life?

Park Kersman:

: 00:39:53

I'd like to be known for someone that's made a difference to other people and to my family and to my friends, to the world. I want to be a contributor in a lot of different ways that make the world a better place.

Todd Miller:

: 00:40:09

Yeah, that's awesome. Very noble. And I think you're well on your way.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:40:15

Yeah, beautiful. Well, question number three, just as serious. Do you prefer the top or bottom half of your bagel?

Park Kersman:

: 00:40:24

The top half, of course, that's where all the stuff is put on top. That's what I like.

Todd Miller:

: 00:40:27

I'm there with you. I'm there with you. Okay, question four. You got to think about this one a little bit. If you were to someday be in a zombie apocalypse, who do you want to have on your team?

Park Kersman:

: 00:40:43

Well, a younger version of Arnold Schwarzenegger would be really helpful.

Todd Miller:

: 00:40:49

See that would be my answer too, actually. We've had some cool answers to that. Some people will mention, like a family member who is just incredibly resilient and and quick thinking and so, yeah, cool question.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:41:03

Yeah, so to that question, I think we've had Arnold mentioned and then also grandmothers. So it's been a wide spectrum.

Park Kersman:

: 00:41:11

Yeah, that is interesting. That's the opposite end of the spectrum, for sure.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:41:18

Next question. What non-family friend have you known and been connected with the longest in your life?

Park Kersman:

: 00:41:25

Wow. Do I name names on this one or?

Todd Miller:

: 00:41:28

If you're comfortable, you're welcome to. Or you could just mention. Yeah.

Park Kersman:

: 00:41:33

Lance Livingston, a long time friend of mine since before I can remember. And just one of those faithful friends that you could not talk to him for six months and go back, and it's like you were talking to him yesterday. Great friend.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:41:49

Awesome. Those are blessings for sure.

Todd Miller:

: 00:41:51

Yeah, my answer to that is, is actually also a childhood friend who I happened to be blessed to work with every day now.

Park Kersman:

: 00:42:00

Awesome.

Todd Miller:

: 00:42:01

Mr. Eric Voress, so he's our head of development and been a long, long relationship.

Park Kersman:

: 00:42:07

Oh, that's that's nice.

Todd Miller:

: 00:42:08

So next to last, what is your bucket list vacation?

Park Kersman:

: 00:42:13

Bucket list vacation, wow. I think I'd like to see more of the United States. I just have not seen all of the the East Coast or the western mountain region. I'd love to see more of the US. It's interesting. I'm sure a lot of people come out and say a unique place halfway around the world and here I'm talking about the U.S., but it's so diverse and we have so much to offer in this wonderful country. And I feel like I've seen so little so.

Todd Miller:

: 00:42:48

I saw a young lady, college student being interviewed the other day and she said her goal is to visit all of the national parks. And I thought, wow, that's a cool goal to have at that age. Yeah.

Park Kersman:

: 00:43:00

It really is, really is.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:02

And my time may be running out.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:43:06

Last question. Park, what is your favorite pizza topping?

Park Kersman:

: 00:43:11

I would have to say pepperoni, and that's probably along with so many others. But without pepperoni, it just doesn't feel like a pizza.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:43:18

Yeah, it's got to start there. I'm right there with you. Yes.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:23

I hear you.

Park Kersman:

: 00:43:24

The foundation of a pizza.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:27

Well, this has been great. And so now I need to let our audience know to recap our challenge words. I think we were all successful. Seth, you had the word?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:43:37

Rhyme.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:38

Didn't you use it as rhyme or reason? Is that how you?

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:43:41

I did, yep.

Park Kersman:

: 00:43:43

Well done.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:44

Park, you used your word exactly the way I hoped you were going to use your word. So your word was?

Park Kersman:

: 00:43:52

Raspberry.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:53

Raspberry, you talked about we can even make aluminum raspberry-colored. Very cool.

Park Kersman:

: 00:43:58

Yes.

Todd Miller:

: 00:43:59

And my word was, I was sweating bullets. I didn't know if I was going to figure it out. But somehow I worked in the word drywall at one point.

Seth Heckaman:

: 00:44:06

It was very seamless. Well done.

Park Kersman:

: 00:44:08

Yeah, exactly. I'm impressed, Todd. You've done this before.

Todd Miller:

: 00:44:12

Yeah. Yeah, a little bit. Little bit of history. Well, Park again, this has been great. Very eye opening, I hope it's, I know it's going to be informative for our listeners. If folks would like to get in touch with you or Lorin Industries, how can they most easily do that?

Park Kersman:

: 00:44:29

Well, they can always email me at parkkersman@lorin.com or you can call me, which is at 231-727-6765. Always love to hear you. That's direct to my phone so I appreciate speaking with any and all of you.

Park Kersman:

: 00:44:49

Todd Miller: Fantastic and of course Lorin.com is their website that's L-O-R-I-N.com and we'll put all of that in the show notes as well for folks. So Park, thank you very much for your time and I want to thank our audience for tuning in to this episode of Construction Disruption with Park Kersman of Lorin Industries. Please, we encourage you, watch out for future episodes of our podcast. We are always blessed with amazing guests. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or YouTube, but until the next time that we're together, try to change the world for someone. Make them smile, encourage them. Two very simple, powerful things that we can do that impact others in positive ways. So God bless, take care, this is Isaiah Industries signing off until the next episode of Construction Disruption.

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