We welcome back Fred Jacobs, the media visionary and founder of Jacobs Media Strategies, known for creating the Classic Rock format in the 80s.

This time, Fred emphasizes the importance of innovation in the radio industry. He expresses optimism about radio's future and ways you can succeed, but he also highlights the need for creative formats and reaching diverse audiences.

We also dig into podcasting, where Fred expresses a somewhat bearish outlook on stand-alone podcasts due to saturation and challenges in audience discovery and monetization, but also shares ways in which established radio brands can still use podcasts to advantage.

As always, Fred provides key insights into what we can learn from radio’s past, present, and thoughts on our future, touching on topics like podcasting, AI, and marketing strategies.

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Uh, we're really in a, a period and, and we've been in a period

2

for a long time where there hasn't

been a great deal of innovation.

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That's not a winning strategy

in an environment like the

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one we're in, struggling.

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VO: Welcome to BRANDwidth on Demand,

your guide to rebooting radio.

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Fred: We don't have to market anymore.

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Everybody knows who we are and what we do.

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Obviously that was a bad rationalization.

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But even things like bumper stickers,

and you'll hear broadcasters

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to this day say nobody will put

a bumper sticker on their car.

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But they're putting bumper

stickers on laptops.

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I mean, people do want to display

brands they love and brands they use.

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VO: BRANDwidth on Demand.

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Rebooting radio with a different

take on all radio can be.

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Now, your guides through the media

morphosis, David Martin, and author

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of the book, BRANDwidth, Media

Branding Coach, Kipper McGee.

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Dave: Fred Jacobs is a media visionary

and the founder and president of Jacobs

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Media Strategies, a consulting firm

that specializes in the radio industry.

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And also digital media.

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He's known as the creator of classic

rock radio formats, which debuted in

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the early 80s in America and is now

heard in hundreds of markets in the U.

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S.

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and also around the world.

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Fred's a frequent speaker at

industry events and continues

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to write extensively about the

radio industry and digital media.

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If you're not reading his daily

blog while you're missing out,

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we'll link to it in our show notes.

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He's a passionate advocate for radio and

believes that it has a bright future,

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even in the face of digital disruption.

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He's also the co host

of an annual CES tour.

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He started back in 2009 with his brother.

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And we highly recommend that by the

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BRANDwidth on Demand is proud

to welcome back Fred Jacobs.

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Hey, Fred, Fred,

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Fred: wow.

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What an ovation.

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Thank you guys.

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No, that was really a swell introduction.

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It's, uh, it's been a while

since we've seen each other.

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You know, we're.

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We're running out of conferences to go

to because they're disappearing, sadly.

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Yes, yes, sadly.

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Isn't that weird?

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I know.

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There used to be too many of

them and now there aren't enough.

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I mean, how does that happen?

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Kipper: Hardly any.

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Well, first, congrats on

40 years of consulting.

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I mean, that's, that's a milestone too.

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Yeah, that kind of snuck up on us a

little bit and actually linked in.

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Right.

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Yes.

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Congratulate Fred on his work anniversary.

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Uh, all of a sudden one day

they started coming in and it's

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like, holy crap, it's 40 years.

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So yeah, it's, it's a really nice thing.

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Uh, you know, for, for me,

the real big benefit is for.

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Forty years I haven't had

to worry about what's next.

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That's for sure.

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Right, which used to be the question

that hounded the young Fred.

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Uh, back in his formative years, you

know, yeah, this is great, but where

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am I going to be a year from now?

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You know, that I, I was that guy.

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So

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yes, we were all, I think,

radio nomads to one extremer.

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Fred: Right.

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I mean, what market am I going

to be in a year from now?

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Right.

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And I sure don't want to be here.

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So yeah, so no, it's, it's, uh, I'm really

blessed, you know, I have nothing, but

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gratitude as that milestone comes up.

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I did not think that would happen but

it has, so it's, it's really nice.

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Kipper: So can you share with us like one

particularly brilliant moment that you've

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witnessed during your client client run?

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Fred: So, you know, going back to

Dave's introduction, it was obviously

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for me, the classic rock format.

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I mean, I, I really wanted to not

just be a typical consultant, I

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wanted to do stuff, or make things

that might actually be unique.

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And the format turned

out to be, exactly that.

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And it was not for a lack of...

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Hardship on the way up.

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It took me quite a while to get

this thing sold and established.

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Nobody really knew who

I was back at that time.

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I did not have much of an industry profile

and frankly, nobody really thought it

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was a really cool idea to devote an FM

station to, a format that just played old

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stuff without currents, especially at a

time when, you know, MTV was exploding.

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And the Hot Hits format was going

crazy in radio, and here I am running

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around going, No, it's an all gold

format and it's going to last.

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And I wasn't actually sure of that.

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So, uh, right?

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So, yeah, that was kind of the thing.

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And, you know, guys, it ended up,

uh, pitting me against some...

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Really incredible radio

stations that I had nothing

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but respect for over the years.

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And, you know, suddenly here I am

competing against KMET and The Loop and

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WMMS and KY 102 and all these stations.

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So it, it was really an exciting

time for me, um, and it still

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continues to be, you know, the format.

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It obviously has legs and has kind

of morphed and evolved and done a few

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things that I might not have been able

to predict, uh, 35 or so years ago,

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but yeah, it's, it's, it's been great.

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So yeah, for me, that's probably

been the coolest thing I've

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been blessed to be a part of.

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Yeah.

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Kipper: Excellent.

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Dave: Well, Fred, I mean, you've got a

real streak of contrarian there that I

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think serve you and the industry well.

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Radio being, uh, what it is, a lot

of naysayers recently, yet you remain

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very bullish on audio, including radio.

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So, to start on an upbeat note here,

what do you see as today's biggest

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opportunities for stations and for

individuals at the station level?

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Fred: So, I still think as an industry

we, we have upside, but it's not going

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to be achieved in the conventional ways.

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I mean, we are still...

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Sort of, for the most part, everywhere.

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I was at a conference a number

of years ago that Paul moderated

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a panel with Tim Westergren,

formerly the creator of Pandora.

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And Paul asked Tim if he actually

ever listened to broadcast radio.

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Dave: And Tim said, you know,

I'm jealous of broadcast radio.

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You guys are a one button solution.

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You're easy to listen to and you're free.

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And that really stuck with me.

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I mean, here was one of radio's arch

competitors and, and here he was kind

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of coming up with the, the rationale.

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So I, I do think radio has a lot of things

going for it, but, uh, we're really in a

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period and, and we've been in a period for

a long time, as you guys know, where there

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hasn't been a great deal of innovation.

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in the radio broadcasting industry when

it comes to formats or content creation.

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We've pretty much kind of

been steady as, as she goes.

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And that, that's not a winning strategy

in an environment like the one we're in.

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So, I mean, that's one of the reasons

why we do the CES thing every year.

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I mean, we, we need that infusion of

innovation and embracing new ideas.

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But I, I think there are

formats to be created.

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I, I think there are audiences to reach

that we have walled ourselves off from.

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And so a regular theme in the blog these

past few months has been suggesting that

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people maybe look at the industry a little

differently, kind of turn things on their

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side, get out from under that 30 year.

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Uh, self enforced 25 to

54 year old demographic.

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And let's start thinking about going

north of that or south of that.

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Cause there's a lot of audience

there and there's money there

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if we go about it the right way.

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So yes, I think there's upside,

but we're not going to get

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there the way we're going now.

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Kipper: So Fred, what's your current

read on podcasting, especially as it

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impacts radio stations and personalities.

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Fred: So I've become somewhat bearish

at at this point, and I'll tell you why.

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In terms of its impact on radio,

there's no question that podcasting

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is erosive to broadcast radio.

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The more people get into podcasts, the

more they move away from linear radio as.

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Some people like to call this so there's

that but the reason that I'm bearish

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really doesn't have anything to do with

that I I look at the podcast landscape now

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and I see a marketplace that is totally

Saturated with content that people seem to

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have trouble finding there are still murky

technical details that flummox people

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Who are trying to get into podcasting.

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I mean, every year in Tech Survey, we

kind of come up with a fairly similar

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number, and it's in the 50 to 60 percent

range of our overall radio audience, who

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either never listens to a podcast, or

does so, so infrequently, that it's not

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really part of their audio, uh, habit.

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And I, I feel like, you know, this...

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This platform's been around

a long time now, and it is

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still struggling to achieve QM.

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In a meaningful way.

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I mean, we still see more people listening

to podcasts this year than last year.

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But again, that 60 percent line

for me is really a problem I think.

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And then there's the ROI piece, right?

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I mean, not all podcasts

are created equal.

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There's a podcast like we're doing here.

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Where it's three guys sitting

around overhead's not going

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to be completely absurd.

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So kudos to you guys for finding a

way to do this that is cost effective.

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But, as we know, some really

great podcasts out there are

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like Game of Thrones, you know?

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They've got a cast of thousands,

and it takes a long time to...

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Crank out an episode.

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And I don't think a whole lot of strategic

thinking has up to this point gone into,

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can we afford to produce that podcast?

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Can we actually make back and

even then some our investment?

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No research is being done in

the field, really, to speak of.

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I mean, we all come out of radio,

right, where we've researched

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everything now for decades.

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Right?

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The music and the personalities

and how, how long should this be?

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And do they like this

benchmark over others?

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And yet you talk to a podcaster and you

go, so what's working exactly for you?

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And they kind of go, well,

uh, our downloads are up.

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And I'm like, wow, that's like

saying our ratings are better.

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I mean, that doesn't really

tell you a whole lot.

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So I think for a lot of radio companies

that aren't iHeart, there are much less

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expensive digital avenues to go down

where you can actually create cool stuff

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and not have it cost an arm and a leg.

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And you can actually make money

on, on these things and attract.

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New audience so we're headed down some

of those paths I mean any broadcaster who

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says I've got a killer idea for a podcast.

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I'll push them really hard to To really

write that business plan for the podcast

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because I'm dubious After all these

years and you know one more thing you

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take a look at you know WNYC in New York

You know, which is really considered to

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be the biggest, maybe most successful.

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Uh, public radio station in the country.

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They've got their own podcasting wing.

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Empire.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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WNYC studios.

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And a week or two ago, uh, you know,

I'm dating your podcast, but a week

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or two ago, they laid off 14 percent

of their staff, much of whom are

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part of the podcasting division.

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And they are sunsetting what

appeared to be some popular podcasts.

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So, you know, I, I look at that and

I think, wow, I mean, podcasting

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in this country kind of came out

of public radio to a great degree.

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That's where some of the seminal podcasts

and, and podcasting geniuses came out.

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And here's WNYC struggling

and NPR struggling.

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So that's a really long winded answer,

Kipper, but I'm, I'm kind of thinking,

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you know, maybe don't try this at home if

you don't really know what you're doing.

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Kipper: Good movie.

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Dave: Good points, Sam.

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You recently presented, speaking

of research, your AQ5 results

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at the Morning Show Boot Camp.

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Can you share some of the highlights,

Fred, and what they mean for young

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people who are interested in a career in

broadcasting, as well as info and tips for

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radio vets that want to remain relevant?

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Fred: So, I think one of the key

findings, Dave, is that when you ask

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veteran on air professionals if they

had to do it all over again, what kind

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of company would they like to work for?

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They will tell you, to a great degree,

not one of the bigger companies, one

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of the medium or smaller companies.

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And I think that really is a...

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Paradigm shift, right?

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Because the three of us got into

radio when it was all about...

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I gotta get to Chicago, New York, or L.

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A.

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I mean, right?

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If I don't work my way up through

the small and medium and medium

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large and largest markets, I

have not had a great career.

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And here we've got the majority

of on air talent, including people

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working in big markets now for big

companies kind of going, you know,

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if I had to do it all over again,

I think I would scale down a bit.

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So I, I found that to be a,

uh, a big finding this year.

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There's a lot of fear of AI.

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I, I had to include questions

about that for obvious reasons.

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I mean, we need to get the

air talent side of this.

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We have every other side except

the people who are to a great

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degree in fear of being replaced.

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So to me, that's one of

the big takeaways here is.

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If you have a great brand, you can

extend it, but do it the right way.

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It's way too easy to fail.

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Dave: We can all learn something

from the Hall of Famer, Fred Jacobs.

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That's for sure.

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Somebody you'd love to hear from.

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We'd love to hear your suggestions.

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Email us show at brand with on demand.

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com or reach out to us on social brand

with plus on Insta, Facebook, and Twitter.

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Oh, that's X that's brand

with P L U S brand with plus.

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Kipper: And Fred, along with the

entire Jacobs have lots of great

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resources, all free to you, including

Fred's AQ5 study and the webinar

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replay, his blog, and got so much more.

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Just tap the links in the show notes.

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Dave: Coming up, Fred shares

one thing that works so well,

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radio just stopped doing it.

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Spot: Music Master, less stress, more yes.

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Hey, this is Dave Tyler.

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And maybe it's just me, but I love uptempo

songs coming out of the legal ID at the

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top of the hour, as well as out of my

stop sets, it's kind of like saying,

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all right, we're done with business.

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Let's get back to the party to do this.

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I use clock filters in these

positions that only choose

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medium up or uptempo songs.

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Sounds great.

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Every time.

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And it's.

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Easy to set up.

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If you have any questions, just shoot

me an email at Dave at music, master.

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com.

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Music master music, scheduling

the way it should be.

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Kipper: Hey there, Kipper here and

ready or not, holidays are here.

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So one way you can help out

your listeners and your bottom

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line is with radio swag shop.

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You just give them some cool

holiday artwork, pick your items.

278

They do the rest.

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They'll do the sales website.

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They handle the fulfillment,

the transaction.

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All your station has to do is sit back

and reap the holiday swag shop easy.

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Just follow the link in the show notes

or go to radio swag shop.com and be

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sure to use the coupon code kipper.

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That's Radio swag Shop.

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Coupon Kipper your listeners and

your station's holiday budget.

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will thank you

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VO: stuff that worked so well, we

stopped doing it friend with on demand

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Dave: We're back with the hall of fame

guy fred jacobs fred Would you share

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one thing that you believe has worked so

well that radio just stopped doing it?

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Fred: Yeah, we stopped marketing, David.

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I mean, that's, that's right, because it

worked well, but, you know, I think this

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attitude kind of permeated during the

early years of consolidation back in the

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90s that we don't have to market anymore.

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Everybody knows who we are and what we do.

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And obviously that was a bad

rationalization, but even things

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like bumper stickers and you'll

hear broadcasters to this day

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say, nobody will put a bumper

sticker on their car, but they're

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putting bumper stickers on laptops.

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I mean, people do want to display

brands they love and brands they use.

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So the stoppage of marketing.

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Uh, you know, to throw that money to

the bottom line, as they say, I think

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radio really did a pretty good job.

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Collectively as an industry,

marketing his products in all kinds

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of interesting and unique ways, and

sadly, that has come to a grinding halt.

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And I think not coincidentally, uh,

the industry has certainly suffered.

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Over the years where marketing

has been virtually non existent.

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Kipper: And interestingly, if our

clients practiced what we preached,

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there'd be no income for the industry.

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Fred: Yeah.

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Well, there's that point too.

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Um, but you know, one thing

leads to another, right?

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I mean, you, you keep pulling the.

313

Pick up sticks out of the structure and

eventually the structure just collapses.

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I mean, you, you can't keep

throwing money to the bottom line

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and cutting, cutting, cutting.

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You're not gonna have

a whole lot left, so.

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Mm hmm.

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Uh huh.

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Dave: Our thanks to Hall

of Famer Fred Jacobs.

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We have links to Fred's blog, tons of

research, and more all in the show notes.

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Just scroll down on your phone.

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Kipper: As always, special thanks to

our exec producer Cindy Huber who put

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this all together, and to Hannah B,

our associate producer for booking.

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Speaking of which coming up next,

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Corey: hi, it's Corey Dylan from 100.

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7 Big FM at Local Media, San Diego.

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And we're coming up next.

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Hope you'll stick around to

hear the best pieces of advice.

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Yes, three different pieces of advice

that I got one from a mentor in radio.

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One from George Clooney,

not personally, I wish.

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And the third from actor Brian Cranston.

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Stick around.

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Dave: That's a wrap, Kipper.

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Never stop learning.

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We're gonna talk about learning

in One-Minute Martinizing.

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Find it in the show notes

at BRANDwidthondemand.com.

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I'm Dave Martin.

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Kipper: And I'm Kipper McGee.

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May all your BRANDwidth be wide.