Spend some time with me and our colleague Tex as they share with us what it's like being an accountant with ADHD.

You can follow Tex on Twitter at @ItsLilTex.

Timestamps:

00:01:04 What is ADHD?

00:03:23 Tex introduction - childhood, college, diagnosis, becoming an accountant

00:09:53 ADHD - experiences, misconceptions

00:19:13 Being an accountant with ADHD

00:35:20 Professional licensing

00:42:11 Ways accounting firms can help ADHD employees

00:47:26 Thoughts and tips - being an employee with ADHD

00:58:14 Conclusion & encouragement

Resources:

https://drhallowell.com/tag/driven-to-distraction/

http://disorganizedmind.com/

https://howtoadhd.com/

https://hubermanlab.com/adhd-and-how-anyone-can-improve-their-focus/

https://www.verywellhealth.com/dopamine-and-adhd-5220847

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopamine

https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd

Especially in a typical, workplace in a field like accounting you can

experience a lot less empathy or understanding of the way that you

function differently than other.

People.

And that can be really hard . That can be really hard to want to stay in the field.

Hey, this is Alison.

Welcome to under withheld the podcast by accountants and for accountants, where we

talk about our ubiquitous, professional and personal struggles, you are not alone.

This episode is a conversation I had with Tex.

Tex is an accountant based out of Portland, Oregon.

After a childhood of struggling with school assignments while

simultaneously excelling at standardized tests, Tex was diagnosed with ADHD

in their final year of college.

Tex shares experiences of growing up and working in accounting with ADHD,

as well as some thoughts on how others in the accounting profession might

approach their own ADHD in the workplace.

Or those without ADHD might help their ADHD colleagues and staff.

Before we jump into the conversation, a little background on the topic,

which Tex will also go over.

ADHD stands for attention deficit, hyperactive disorder.

Which is actually an antiquated misnomer.

Individuals with ADHD don't necessarily lack attention.

Instead, they struggle with choosing where exactly they

should be placing their attention.

And to what extent.

It can be challenging for them to push away extraneous environmental

inputs that folks without ADHD may find they can readily ignore.

Alternatively folks with ADHD may sometimes be able to hyper-focus on an

activity to the exclusion of all else.

Even if that activity is not the optimal one for them to be choosing at the moment.

Further folks with ADHD aren't necessarily hyperactive.

And indeed expecting to see this presentation can lead

to an ADHD individual, not receiving a helpful diagnosis.

ADHD is also not about being lazy while possible causes of ADHD.

Aren't quite solidified.

We do know that the condition is associated with lower than average levels.

of various chemicals produced by the body, including dopamine.

Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that has a significant role in

executive functions, such as working memory and paying attention.

With this in mind.

Telling an ADHD child or adult to work harder or just

focus is not only not helpful.

It can be counterproductive if that person feels punished or shamed for

something, which they have no control.

In my research for this episode, I did not find much on the

intersection of ADHD and accounting.

However, according to the national institutes of health, approximately

5% of US adults have ADHD.

It therefore seems reasonable to me that there are quite

a few accountants with ADHD.

If you have resources specifically where these two topics meet, please reach out

to me with those at underwithheld.com.

I will add them to the resources already listed in the show notes.

In case it needs to be said, I know my guests, our therapist,

we are not offering therapy.

We may say things that just don't resonate with you.

And if so, that's totally cool.

There's nothing prescriptive here.

Just colleagues talking about an issue we think is important and we hope

talking about it will help someone else.

If something sounds helpful to you here.

Cool.

If not, just ignore it.

Welcome to the show.

Hey

text.

Hello.

How are you?

Hey, I'm doing good.

Thanks for joining me on the show today.

Thank you for having me.

Tell us a little bit about yourself

text.

I live in Portland, Oregon.

I am a CPA here.

Well, actually, oh, I think I have to say, I have to say I'm in an active CPA, cuz

I forgot to get my renewal in yesterday.

so sorry, Oregon.

I'm an inactive CPA in Oregon.

I'm an active CPA in Washington.

So I actually can't say that.

I did not like kind of start accounting in a traditional way.

At all.

I mean, who knows if any?

Well, actually, no, that's not true.

A lot of people on Twitter are like my dad's a CPA and I'm a CPA.

I'm like, oh cool.

My dad was a logger.

So I grew up in Oregon and central Oregon in a really blue collar family.

I have three little brothers.

Didn't have money.

Didn't talk about money, didn't know about money.

So like I, when I got into accounting, like I remember when I started my job at

my my first, like, you know, like in, at my job that I was just at for a while.

I like didn't know what interest was like the concept of like interest expense.

Sure.

Like that's how little I knew.

We all know that we don't, it's not like we learn about this

stuff in school or anything.

So yeah, I always in like the context of what we're gonna talk

about, I always struggled in school.

I skipped a grade and I always struggled in school.

I was very smart.

I've always been good at tests, standardized testing, even,

you know, tests in class.

But I always struggled with assignments, whether it was forgetting about them

or just being unable to know how to start, especially if they were a big

project or like a term long paper.

And I just didn't really have the family structure to kind of offer, you

know, my parents were always working, I for sure, real little brothers who

are bouncing off the walls and one of them is actually now an accountant.

He just started his city, government accounting job last week.

I'm so proud of him.

But yeah, I, it was kind of the same thing in college.

I like got into college on a fluke.

I didn't know, I'd be able to go to college.

And I had just had a high school guidance counselor who like changed my life and I

started, but it was kind of the same story where you know, I, I just didn't know.

I couldn't, I just lost stuff.

I didn't, I couldn't keep track of anything.

I would be in class and then I'd be like 40 minutes later and I'd be

like, eh, I didn't hear any of that.

And it was it, you know, you, I always heard this very common to hear.

You're so smart.

You're so much potential, if you could just, if you would just try a little

harder and I think that's why a lot of us don't try harder for a long time.

Is that knowledge that if it's, if it's just that I need to try harder

and then I try harder and then I still fail than what then it's just me,

cuz all I have to do is try harder.

Right.

And so I yeah, really struggled with college.

I tried for a while I was academically dismissed from

Portland state university two times.

Before I got my bachelor's degree, took a long time off and then.

Finally went back and got my bachelor's degree in applied

linguistics that was in 2017.

And I did not get diagnosed with ADHD until my last term of

finishing that bachelor's degree.

And I , I remember taking my medication for the first time and

being like, oh, well, if I had had this, everything would've been fine.

so that's all, that's like, I, I think an experience that a lot of people with ADHD

go through is, is taking the medication for the first time and being like, oh,

is this what regular people brains are?

Like, because I have a thousand TV channels going all times full blast.

And I, I like, I hear it all.

I see what's going on.

It's just, it's a lot.

So.

But like I basically went to the doctor and was like, I think I have

depression, cuz I like can't do anything.

And like thankfully this doctor and it wasn't someone I was established with this

doctor must have just gotten something out of something I said, and she kind of was

like, oh, like tell me more about that.

Give me specific examples of, you know, what you're struggling with.

And we talked for a while and of course she asked about family history and I have,

again, three very hyperactive, little, you know, two brothers who all my brothers

have documented lifelong, you know, mental health issues and ADHD and two

of them borderline personality disorder and you know, and one of 'em like this,

this is very common and it's also very common for you know, for, for girls to

be overlooked, especially I think when.

When you have it a little more together than, you know, your siblings who

are big problem causes it's like, we can only give so many kids attention

and you're the least of our worries.

So like basically right before I started my first.

Job.

Well, I was, I hate to say accounting job.

It was at my job where I became an accountant, but I started just at an

attempt admin role, cuz I just didn't know what I was gonna do after I graduated.

Sure.

That was horrible.

The admin role very much not my strong suit.

But I immediately, my boss was someone I knew and she had done the post back.

There's a post back accounting certificate of Portland state.

For those who don't know well I'm sure everyone listening is an accountant,

but if you wanna take the CPA exam, of course you have to have those 150 hours.

And some of them are really specific.

So this certificate is for when you already have a

bachelor's degree in anything.

So you have the, like, you have a good number of credits.

But then you're just adding on all the required accounting ones

and also getting you to one 50.

So it's not like an, it's not an accounting degree.

It's just, I just took accounting classes and I have a bachelor's

degree and then I took the exams.

So so yeah, then I was in, I pretty much immediately went back to school

for that when I started that job.

And then I did a very brief stint at a mid-size regional firm here.

That was just very much like values wise, not for me.

And I went back to my role and then I just, I just left that role.

So I just started my new position this week in an industry role

working with a restaurant.

So it's really cool for me.

Cuz I always worked in restaurants before I did this, so it's

like going back to my place.

I appreciate you sharing that.

I think we're probably gonna have folks listening in who

are accountants with ADHD.

And I think we are also going to have folks listening who are

accountants without ADHD and who may not have exposure to this.

And may not really know what we're talking about.

Maybe some misconceptions or just lack of knowledge in general.

Can you spend a little bit of time explaining what ADHD is?

Yes, definitely.

I disclaimer, I am not a doctor.

I . So a lot, you know, I'm gonna speak to.

Things I've read things.

I have learned working with my therapist who specializes in adults

really with, I, it seems like she works with a lot of adults who were

not diagnosed with ADHD until later in life, which seems really specific.

But I think I don't think it's as specific as it's definitely not as

specific as I used to think it was.

And a thing also that my therapist says that I really like is she calls ADHD a

personality type, which can be really, I mean, everyone can identify the way they

want, but mm-hmm, , it can be a helpful framework for me, as far as remembering

that lots of people are like this.

And that it's not, you know, it's a disorder, but it's not a disorder.

So for kind of the 1 0 1 I'm not even gonna touch on the

acronym because it's outdated.

A lot of professionals think it should be changed.

ADHD does not always present in hyperactivity.

It definitely doesn't in me.

It definitely doesn't in girls and women frequently.

But it can, it totally can.

And I have, I have seen it.

So I say ADHD, cuz that's what it's called.

Also used to be referred to as D D which I think now it's like inattentive

type versus hyperactive type, I think is more common language, but It.

So like my disclaimer is that I is that I wouldn't think about the acronym too much.

And also a thing I wanna preface this with is there's a lot of literature that

discusses the overlap between ADHD and as D the autism spectrum which incidentally

used to be mutually exclusive.

So if you had one diagnosis, you couldn't have the other ah and that

was changed like relatively recently.

So there's a lot of overlap in those symptoms and that's kind of its own

whole topic, but I think it's important to like honor it, cuz I think people

will hear things and be like, oh, I thought of that as like an autism thing.

But anyways kind of neuroscience of it, 1 0 1 is that deficiencies in

neurotransmitters in our brain which our brains synthesize are like underlying.

In a lot of disorders, anxiety, obsessive, compulsive disorder, et cetera.

ADHD specifically is a deficiency and a neurotransmitter called no epinephrine.

And its main like building block is dopa, which is turned into dopamine and

then it's turned into Nore epinephrine.

So when we have a deficiency, like our brain, isn't, isn't making enough of that.

I also think it can be that your brain breaks it down too fast, which

I think is why some people respond better to like their medications

that help you make more of it.

And there are medications that help you break it down slower.

But I'm not a hundred percent sure on that.

Some I'm sure.

Some like neuroscientists listening to me being like that is not true.

But that's like my kind of my understanding of it.

And no epinephrine is crucial.

too functioning.

So Yeah, stimulants help us synthesize more of that and that deficiency can

affect multiple parts of the brain.

And you know, those parts of the brain support things like working

memory emotional regulation, mental flexibility, right?

The ability to accept change as it comes or switch tasks or

you know, anything like that.

So I think medicine's really fascinating.

I have a really great provider who is like a huge medicine nerd.

She's a psychiatric nurse practitioner.

And she manages my medication and she's like, she tells me so much.

It's amazing.

So yeah, so you know, a lot of things that we struggle with or yeah.

Those things working memory I mean, executive functions in general

working memory emotional regulation.

That's like such a big one that I think we know about, but we don't, we

think about it as like, yeah, like a hyper little boy throwing a tantrum

and not someone really struggling.

With, you know, a piece of criticism they just got at work and that kind

of totally overloading their brain.

Wow.

Yeah.

There's like, that's like that scientific but like from a

nonscientist perspective that is, yeah.

So ADHD has to summarize ADHD manifests in so many ways in so many different people.

There's a big set of symptoms, but when you have ADHD and you, and you talk about

it a lot, you will, you would be amazed how many people that resonates with.

I mean, I think this is so clear if you get on, TikTok, which I will admit, I

cannot have TikTok on my phone because I have no self-control so I have not

had it for several months but when I was like in the height of my addiction

for a while to TikTok Hey, you get on ADHD, TikTok, and you, you know, you.

We'll just see people talking about their experiences.

And so many people being like, oh, not, not everybody, not everybody does that.

And then like a bunch of people chime in and be like, no, not everybody does that.

like, oh, you guys don't, you won't be in the middle of eating something.

And then all of a sudden you cannot have it in your mouth anymore.

And so you will spit it back out onto your plate.

Like, no, that's not a thing that happens like, all right.

Cool thought, thought that was just pretty normal.

But so there's all sorts of stuff.

But the flip side is that, you know, sure.

I can surround myself outside of work with this bubble of people who

underst, who maybe don't also have ADHD, but know me and understand me.

And then, especially in a typical, workplace in a field like accounting

you can experience a lot less empathy or understanding of the way that

you function differently than other.

People.

And that can be really hard . That can be really hard to want to stay in the field.

when you feel like it's a bunch of people whose brain development is

completely different from yours and you are seen as like, well, you are just

different because you're not trying hard enough to be normal, I guess.

And it's like, no, no, no, my brain literally developed

differently than yours.

I think like any mental health issue, that's just a huge, that's gonna be a

barrier to entry and to retention in accounting for a long time, until there's

a big, big, big shift in how we understand it and accept it as just different

people and not people who are failures.

If I could summarize a little bit, also not a scientist it sounds like

ADHD manifest itself in a variety of ways and probably is not going to be corrected

by simply telling someone to focus or be better with their time management or

work harder.

Yeah, but not only is it not going to help, it is going to

harm , especially in children when that's a message they're getting yeah.

All the time.

And there's, you know, why didn't you remember to bring your backpack to school?

Because I didn't remember my backpack existed because I didn't

see it in my field of vision.

Right.

It did not exist to me.

So yeah, it is harmful I think, to, to push these messages

and you'll still see it.

I mean, I know that you'll see the worst stuff, like the worst

takes on Twitter sometimes.

I, it just truly the wor I mean, it can be the best, but it can be the worst,

but it's like, I just saw a tweet that was like, it was like giving kids,

amphetamines for ADHD is child abuse.

And it's like, are you kidding me?

Like, I can assure you.

It is, I can assure you.

It is not, sir, who is not a doctor.

But you see that kind of stuff all the time.

And it is interesting how.

Pervasive those beliefs, those myths are in our society.

when you see hot takes on Twitter or other social media about

ADHD, you know, it's just wrong.

How do you feel?

I think it's always super, invalidating to see somebody just

saying like, this person's lived experience that I have not lived false.

Yeah.

Why do you care?

Why is this the thing you've chosen to be obsessed with?

Get a hobby, like build a model train or something?

Yeah, I feel that.

Tell us about your experiences on the

job.

Okay.

$5 says I cry at some point during this podcast, do it

crying is, oh, I should, I should have worn my cry.

Babies

crying.

Yeah.

Cry.

Like I cry because of an overwhelm of any emotion I just cry about

everything I cry when I'm mad.

I cry when I'm happy.

I cry when I'm frustrated.

I cry.

I mean, it's just a response, so yeah, I'll probably cry.

But yeah ADHD in accounting.

I will just say in my professional life, because my only professional life has

been in accounting and is hard and it is mostly interpersonal, but a lot of

the interpersonal conflict is caused by the things that I'm doing or not doing

or doing wrong or doing differently or weirdly or oddly or whatever.

And the, like the biggest one for me.

Oh, I am.

I know I'm gonna cry.

I'm already thinking about it.

The biggest one for me is oh my God.

It's so embarrassing is is I my preface and this is again, just me,

not everybody struggles with this.

I do pretty good with observation.

Like I said, my exception really is tone of voice.

I don't, I have a hard time with tone of voice.

I tend to not interpret it right.

This is a recurring theme in my life is I'm not great with tone.

If I'm trying to solicit a piece of information from somebody and they

provide the wrong thing either because I wasn't clear with what I was asking.

They didn't understand.

Whatever my tone, when I reword the request can often sound annoyed or

critical or imp, you know, frustrated.

Plus if it's paired with, I talk fast, I process fast.

So one might be trying to still be like, wait, what are you asking for?

And I'm like, and I'm like already trying to give an, you know, trying to reword it.

And then they're overwhelmed.

Cuz it just seems like I'm being like, come on, gimme these.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's like, people interpret that often and you know, it can be interpreted

as, you know, like I'm annoyed or whatever, by, in my head there's nothing

going on other than, oh, that didn't work, I'm gonna try something else.

But at least to so many issues, it's really like the number one thing

that's caused issues in, work is getting told that, oh, so and so

thought it was really difficult to work with you on this project because.

, it just felt like you were arguing all the time.

And in my head, we never argued.

We literally discussed.

Yeah.

We discussed and problem solved and we may have disagreed on something.

And so then we talked it out, right?

Like I can see, it can just seem very intense.

And I, think I particularly struggle with a go with letting there be

space when I'm problem solving.

Like I'm, I'm just, I'm just saying everything that comes to

mind in case something lands.

So the interpersonal conflicts in general, whether they're from someone

who may struggle, you know, with.

Being on time with being late.

I am one of those people, but I keep taking jobs that don't

have a set start time because I know that I will fail at that.

But people who struggle with getting there on time, people with people who

struggle with staying on task, who, you know, will hop around people who

there's just, there's so many things.

The reason , we process so fast is because when normal people

receive information, they get the slight delay and then they get it.

And then they have a second to decide, not necessarily actively decide,

but decide how they're gonna react.

And then people with ADHD, a lot of times don't have that.

So it's like you get the information and it's just, it's

dumped and now you're reacting.

Right?

Sure.

We see that a lot in outbursts in children.

I mean, lots of children have outbursts, but , I mean, outbursts

in me like low frustration tolerance reactions that don't seem to match

the, the cause of the reaction, right?

Like, sure.

Crying while talk while talking about compensation negotiating.

Right.

That's a big, a big thing for me is I really struggle talking about.

I really struggle like advocating for myself in ways like that.

And that kind of overwhelm of just it being hard and just being a,

oh, this is a hard thing that I'm navigating, coming out and crying

and it's like having to constantly be like, I'm not, I'm not, not sad.

, it's just not processing on the inside.

It's processing coming outta my face.

I don't know what to do about it.

And it can be your first episode about imposter syndrome was like that

resonated with me so hard as far as being in these situations or in these

work environments where like, I.

You just don't feel good enough.

And so then doing something like advocating for a raise

feels like fraudulent.

You're like, but I already think I'm helpful.

So why do I deserve more money?

Yeah.

But like, I also know I'm supposed to ask for more money sort of thing, you know?

Oh God.

So much of that episode really resonated for me the last three weeks

when I was job hunting where the recruiter would send me a job and I'd

be like, I'm not qualified for that.

And it's like, yes, I am.

Yes I am.

Why do I not think that I'm qualified for that?

So yeah, the emotional dysregulation can co has, has caused me so

much pain in the workplace.

Having a reaction that I didn't want to have, and that in my head, I'm going,

this isn't, this reaction is not matching how I'm like logically thinking about

this, but not being able to stop it.

And that can be the most frustrating part too is, you know, you're

overreacting and there's it.

It ju you cannot stop So there's that, there's the emotional

dysregulation where you can just get so frustrated over a silly thing.

There's the RSD, the rejection sensitive dysphoria, where you get criticism

and you, you just can't it's, it's not that you think it's unfair again,

it's just that, you know, like when I get, when I received certain types of

criticism, the caveat is that certain types of criticism I can handle.

Fine.

You used the wrong depreciation method.

Okay, cool.

I did my bad.

I that's great.

I won't do that again.

So thanks for telling me.

But criticism like this this project was messy.

It's clear that you didn't take much care in it.

Especially from when you're.

Someone who is really seeking that validation from like, you know, your

superiors to, to hear that they think that you didn't try when you have not

let this leave your brain for six months.

Yeah.

Can hurt so bad.

And that's the, that's really the part that I can't, I can't logic away.

And my therapist has told me to stop trying to logic it away.

She's just like, you just feel stuff more I'm like, okay.

But it, it makes it hard to have confidence and to, to want to take

on new projects to want to take on new responsibilities because

you're, you'll just be like, oh yeah.

Well, I got the feedback that it seems like I'm trying to steamroll everybody

because I have, so many opinions about this thing or whatever those things

are just cumulative and they add up and they definitely supplement if

not create imposter syndrome, right.

You can be doing good work, but then getting this feedback like,

oh, I asked you to lay out your process and it was such a mess.

You obviously don't even understand what you are doing.

And it's like, no, my, my brain, just your brain goes 1, 2, 3.

And my brain went to the grocery store first.

I don't know what to say, like, but I do know what I'm doing, which I,

but, but also I can see why it seems like I don't know what I'm doing.

Then there's kind of the, just the other, like, I hate to say not little things,

but other things like time blindness is a concept that's really common.

Sure, sure, sure.

Right.

I will do it where I'm like, oh, I have time for the, oh, I mean my CPA renewal.

I it's just like, oh, I have I have hours.

It's not even cuz I didn't do the hours.

I have the hours.

But you know, it's just like, you'll be like, oh I.

I have time to do this.

And then two weeks goes by and you're like, oh, I have time.

I just thought about it like two days ago.

And it's like, no, it was two weeks ago.

Steph sneaking up on you.

That kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, you know, people are like, oh, you didn't finish this project on time.

And you're like, well, see, I thought that I, I thought that I had more days

between when I started it when I finished it and then they all disappeared.

And I don't know, I don't know how that happened.

Hyper focus, I think is a really big issue in accounting, especially my God.

I feel so bad for people in like big four firms that can't get laser

focused on one thing or, you know, you're getting the, the talking to

about your billable time or whatever.

Like I have fallen down rabbit holes so many times where it's been like,

oh, I'll just look up this one thing just to make sure I have it right.

And then an hour later you're like, why am I reading about Rules for people

who want to rent, who wanna move into a home, they got in a 10 31 it's that's

not even, that's not even what I was.

It's bizarre where you'll kind of go down and then yeah.

All of a sudden you're like, okay, well that's an hour.

I can't build to the client cuz I'm not even reading about

something relevant to them.

And I have to explain it to my boss . You know, or you're self-employed and you're

like, well now I can't build that.

And it's just that frustration of like, you know, my first year at

that firm, the old partner was, was the year before he retired.

And he was just a very normal man and would just do a thing, finish it

and then give it to me and be like, okay, can you contact the client and

just be like, how did you do that?

I don't know how to finish a thing because I will just ah,

fall down so many rabbit holes or.

A lot of people think that ADHD is, a lack of attention and it's not, it's an

inability to regulate your attention.

I have plenty of attention.

I have plenty of hobbies.

I have three guitars in this room.

I am not very good at guitar.

I have no, I have like coloring books that I have never colored in.

I have I mean, I could look around it's ridiculous.

And then.

, lesser stuff.

I say lesser, cuz it's lesser for me.

This might not be lesser for other people.

This may be the bane of their existence, but little things like

overhead, light, sensitivity.

I , that's like a big one.

My last job, I had an office on the second floor and I was the only one in the

office, the only one on the second floor.

And it was great because I there's so many things that I

struggle with overhead light.

This was great.

I was able to just get a lamp in my office.

That was amazing.

Not having to hear, people talking about things, hear multiple discussions or

the admin on the phone with a client and or a client coming in or whatever.

And then even little things like clothing sensitivity, I could

wear whatever I wanted cuz no one had to see me up in my cave.

So if I had one of those days where it was like, I can.

Imagine wearing anything, but like these leggings that I definitely

do not wanna wear to work, like I could do it or food sensitivities.

Right.

Someone may really struggle with leftovers, you know, reheated food, like

not being able to have something fresh and that can just be hard at the office.

And this is some of the ways that working from home has been so

beneficial to a lot of people.

And then of course the comorbidity with other, diagnoses, you know,

like anxiety or depression all these things make it very, very hard to.

Perform the way that people, that a lot of people, of course this isn't

everybody, but that a lot of people want you to in this very like traditional way.

Right.

All these ways that you might be seen as like not professional, which really need

to do away with that term in general.

But so yeah, there's a lot I could go on and on all the ways

that this has affected my life.

And I get this really good contrast of like, I'm married to

somebody who is very neurotypical.

And it is so fascinating.

The differences between us in every single way that we function and live.

I have never seen him log on later than 8:00 AM ever, you know, he just

doesn't, he never wakes up late.

He never loses track of time before he goes to work.

He never.

I mean, I've been late to work so many times cuz it's like, oh, sorry.

I thought I would just water the garden and now I am planting stuff

and it's, you know what I mean?

It can be rough in a job that you're in and it can be really difficult to

want to look for other jobs because you see the sort of traditional

expectations that they have.

And you see all the ways that you struggle within those, you

struggle to work within those or you struggle to succeed within those.

So it's been, it was kind of a roller coaster.

It was kind of an ADHD fueled.

I feel like move for me to even get it, like move into accounting.

It was just I tried this thing.

And then I took the first class and debits SQL credits is the

most satisfying thing ever.

This is gonna be great.

Of course.

Then I'm like working in tax, which like, okay.

Debits and credits out

the

window.

Let's

learn a bunch of rules.

I do love debits.

I think it's why I like bookkeeping so much.

Just like I love making a journal entry.

. But you know, I didn't think everything else.

Through.

And I leaving, you know, my job that I started at the end of 2017 and I had

this moment where I was like, man, I don't even know if I'm gonna stay in accounting.

Should I just do a coding bootcamp?

That's also really satisfying.

But then it's like, what if I do the same thing?

What if I am just find myself there five years later being like, oh, I'm like

not professional enough for this field.

And I feel like I fail in every aspect of it.

And now what do I do?

I almost feel like the most frustrating part about all of this

is when I speak about it is the people who are like, it sounds like

you just need to work for yourself.

Be your own boss.

You set your own rules.

You can come in whenever you want wear whatever you want.

It's like, man, I know it's well intentioned, but trust me, I can

barely go to work when I'm required to you think I'm gonna do it when

I'm the one making the rules?

No way, no way.

Like I will be re stringing my guitars all day for no reason.

I have not even played them enough to need to re string them.

You know?

Like, so everyone has these, you know, quick fixes for

your ADHD and it's trust me.

I would've done that a long time ago, a long time ago, if I could.

Where accountants we're we're accountants, we get paid

to fix problems and we can't

shut that off.

I'm literally, and I'm the worst.

I'm such a problem solver.

So that is okay.

Like I am a problem solver and that's one of the things, you know, that there's a

lot of things that I love on good days about my ADHD when I, you know there's a

lot of things that, that are really great.

Yeah.

Your ability to problem, solve your ability to, you know,

immediately get the vibe of a place.

I can walk into a place and be like, we are not staying here.

I have observed, I do not like those people in the corner.

Being able to, take in everything at once is awesome.

But it's also really annoying cuz then you're finishing people's sentences

all the time and they're like, can you please stop interrupting me?

I'm like, I'm sorry.

I just thought I knew where you were going with that.

So there's pros and cons pros and cons to this, I will say.

But it, and it can, a lot of times feel like cons when you're being told, , Hey,

you're really behind on that project.

And you're like, oh yeah, no, I'm, I'm mortified of it.

I can't, I can't even think about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think a fun I'll tell one fun.

I, well, I think it's fun.

A fun story about how this really affected me, like getting my CPA license.

I passed my last CPA exam on December 31st, 2020.

I took my last one.

And then I found out like 10 days later that I pass it and Oregon

has experience requirements.

I had the experience requirement cause I had been working the whole time.

I had been in school and all that and, and obviously after, and then I didn't

get my Oregon license until November.

I think I got it in Washington first in August.

I didn't get my organ license until November.

Despite having been, I could have just done it on like just, you

know, January 12th or whatever.

And the reason why it took so long is because Oregon for new licensees requires

you to basically write this essay, this paper, and they have a bunch of prompts.

It's like nine main prompts and they have like sub prompts or whatever.

And you have to like write out examples of like you understanding all this

stuff based on your kind of field.

So if you're in tax there's one, if you're in okay.

Audit there's one, if you're in government, there's one, if

you're in private there's one.

But another fun thing with ADHD is why procrastinate.

This was honestly the most when I found this out, I burst into tears.

Procrastination is so common.

ADHD is so common.

And I always struggled with this in school, big paper.

You're supposed to work on it all term, but while I wrote it the night before

and so a lot of times it wasn't good

When I started seeing my therapist said, well, yeah.

When people who are more neurotypical have this thing they have to do

that registers with their brain and their brain's like, oh, here's.

Stress hormone, basically, you gotta get this thing done and they're like,

okay, I gotta get this thing done well, and then of course our brains

don't do that until it's real close.

And then it's, then now you're really stressed about it being late.

Now you get the chemical dump.

Now you can do it.

Cause I always wondered.

It was like, I can do it.

Like I can always do it the night before or before the deadline,

but like I could not do anything.

I can't do anything leading up to a deadline.

Like it has to be as close as possible to where I could still do it.

And then it's like it clicks and I'm able to do it.

And that's so frustrating.

And so back to the Oregon CPA story.

So I had to write this essay and it's long written essays

are the bane of my existence.

Why do you think I got an accounting degree and not an English degree?

I don't wanna write.

An essay about what I've done when you're just gonna make my boss

sign a thing that says , yeah, this person is competent in these areas.

And so like any good accountant, I went to Google and I found that

if I held an active CPA license in another state, then I could get

a reciprocal license in Oregon.

And it had all the same requirements having my boss sign off of my experience,

all my CPA scores, my transcripts . But I wouldn't have to write the essay.

And so I did, so I applied in Washington who doesn't require that,

ah, I spent 300 extra dollars, eight months into this eight months into

just agonizing over it, eight months.

Oh yeah.

That I probably could have been making more money that I, you know what I mean?

Like this was an opportunity cost and, but I.

Finally, but I just did it.

I, feel like I cheated the system, but my boss had called Oregon and

was like, I have an employee who's thinking of doing this because

they really struggle with writing.

Is there any reason why this wouldn't work?

And they were basically like, no it's and why do you require it?

So yeah, it sounds like I was the first person to go out of my way to do this.

And my boss had asked the person we talked to at the state of Oregon,

like, why don't more people do this?

Like, why is this kind of the first thing you're hearing about it?

And they basically were like, cuz most people don't.

I don't know.

Cuz people just don't care about writing the essay.

They just write the essay.

Mm.

I was like, oh, I'm sure they do so.

Yeah.

So that's why I'm a CPA in Washington because I was physically

incapable of writing this paper.

I tried so many times and I just , could not do it.

So that's just like the silliest example of how this completely changes.

It's just your brain functions completely differently than people without it.

And it is so hard to wrap your head around, but even stuff like that,

it's just like, yeah, I could have been a CPA in January and it, I mean,

whatever, but it, it can be frustrating.

It's like you, like, I could, we even, I even was like, would you guys,

could we do like a zoom interview?

And I will tell you all of these sure.

It's a different format.

Yeah.

And it, it also just like made me, and when this got brought up, you know,

my boss and I talked to the state of Oregon just about accessibility

in general, just like, sure.

This, you know, this essay and especially people.

You can find on, you know, forum boards or whatever people talking about it,

getting sent back, cuz the state will send it back to you for like revisions.

So it's like getting it sent back and having to redo it.

And it's like having to like, I guess, yeah, for a lot of people, it's not

a big deal, but I couldn't help think about people who you know, for whom

English is not their first language.

Like this is such a daunting narrative.

And the board insisted that like we don't care about, you know, it doesn't

have to be perfect grammar or whatever, but I mean, let's not act like you're

going to completely ignore that.

And that, I just think of what a barrier that is for so many people.

Yeah.

And I wonder how many people out there do pass the CPA exam and do wanna be

a CPA and do have the experience and absolutely absurd licensing requirements,

like this essay that apparently isn't.

Needed, if you just find another way to do it is is kind of holding them back.

So that kind of stuff can be real barriers, definitely to people wanting.

And then it's like, if I can't even write this essay, how am I

supposed to succeed in this role?

And they're not related, they're not related.

You can succeed.

And you also still go with this.

So, right.

I

feel like requirements for licensure to obtain it and maintain.

It could probably be an entire podcast episode.

Absolutely.

I mean the CPA exam in general, I mean, we all know, I think we all agree that.

I there's so many things about it that have to change.

And of course, like, you know, being a CPA is in no way required

for being a good accountant.

So I'd like for you to share your top things you would

suggest that employers who have folks that may have ADHD working for

them can do to help their staff.

And then conversely, for folks that have ADHD and are working for other

folks what might they be able to do that they have control over it that might

be able to help them in the workplace?

I think the biggest thing, and this was something that my

previous and my current employer are both very, very good at is is

just listening and being openminded.

When someone is asking to do things in a way that maybe

they haven't always been done.

When I was in school, I went and walked around MOS Adams., in, Portland's like

the big five in Mo Adams, the fifth.

So they're pretty big.

And I went to their office and it was pretty much all open, seating.

And I remember seeing that and just thinking like, man, I would struggle here.

There is so much going on.

How could I ever focus on.

The boring thing I'm doing in front of me.

yeah.

Yeah.

How could I focus on, I mean, how could I focus on a thrilling thing in front of me?

There's you could put on reputation stadium tour on my computer and I'd

still be like looking around listening to everybody, like watching everybody's

body link, you know, there's just so much.

And I'm not sure that they had more private or quiet spaces and

this was before COVID, before working from home was really common.

And I thought this isn't even an option because the thought of

telling an employer, I can't focus in a group of people, like, how

are they gonna interpret that?

Oh, you can't just like be normal in a group of people.

Yeah, no, I cannot . I know that people normally work nine to five.

Some days I wake up and 11 to seven sounds better and I'm not having client meetings.

Is that cool?

Yeah.

Why would that not be cool?

Right.

There are so many things.

But I think we do as accountants processes that we do just

because that's how we do them.

Sure.

and consistency, consistency, and, you know, Sally really helpful but you know

and, and I definitely acknowledge that changing processes is extremely hard.

But disabled people I've been calling for this for years.

Right.

There's no reason I'm driving to an office to work alone on

applications that are cloud hosted.

There is no reason I cannot do this at home.

Right, right, right.

Gotcha.

Being open to that sort of stuff and it doesn't just necessarily

pertain to remote work.

Every employee may normally get two monitors and you may have

someone who's like, my brain gets so overwhelmed when I try to squeeze

everything I need on two monitors.

Can I get a third?

And also, can I get a different chair?

So you know, that kind of stuff like being open to just like, Hey, can I have

a room where there's no overhead lighting?

Can I, I need a quiet space.

Can I wear noise, canceling headphones?

Can I, whatever, just being open and really thinking like, does this affect me?

Does this affect this person's ability to get the work done?

If no be open to the fact that someone might need to do something

differently, even if it seems silly to you or even if you're like.

That is not necessary.

Like stop saying that stop saying it's not necessary.

let people have the accommodations that they are asking for sure.

And make it clear in your culture.

Like actually clear in your handbook and really live it that you're

not going to be penalized for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Asking for that stuff for, you know, I was just like, Hey, I can't keep

track of anything we're doing, cuz we don't have a great practice management

system . , I cannot keep track of stuff.

That's great that these three people can cuz they're good at stuff.

And you know, that was like a way bigger discussion of like we need

practice management, but those little things can be such a big difference.

And when people feel empowered and encouraged to ask for them

they will definitely ask for them, or at least I will, if someone's

like, Hey, what do you need?

like, oh, thank you for asking.

I need noise canceling headphones.

Like that's what I need.

That's so that's my biggest thing.

And also I would say working on just learning if you're unfamiliar with

ADHD, reading about it, learning and truly like working on acknowledging

that someone being behind on a project doesn't mean that they're

lazy or careless or doing a bad job.

It just picking the wrong project doesn't mean that they just wanted

to pick the easier one to get it done with mm-hmm maybe it means

that they need a manager who's more involved who can help them prioritize

and, and learn how to prioritize.

Right.

Those are definitely my biggest for employers is just that

open-mindedness and kind of willingness.

So and then for employees who, well first let me

I'm interrupt you.

I want you to answer this, but I wanna make sure this question gets answered.

Mm-hmm do you

do you think that employees should let their employers know they have ADHD?

Oh, it's so hard.

That's so hard.

That's so personal.

Yeah.

It's so personal ADHD is a documented disability.

Not everybody with ADHD identifies as disabled.

That's also a very personal decision.

I,

I think it's really dependent.

Obviously you have to,

you need to feel safe to do so.

And it can be hard when you don't know somebody, whether or not you're safe.

I was very fortunate.

You know, I, I was working for somebody who I met.

I used to play roller Derby with my boss.

This is how I got into this whole thing.

I knew it was safe to, talk about that and be really upfront about it.

There are definitely situations where people are not, and it's like,

how, how much do you wanna risk?

And how far are you willing to take it?

You could be risking your whole job.

Yeah.

And then if you're not someone who wants to take it.

All the way then all that is all that it is, is you're out a job.

Right.

So it, it can be difficult.

When I worked at the bigger firm for a short stint, I definitely ran

everything about that to HR HR felt like the safe place to talk about that.

And the HR team was really great and they really reassured me, in

their documentation yes, you are.

Safe to bring these things up.

This will never be used against you.

Like, if you wanna just tell us that you need certain accommodations, we can, you

know, we don't have to disclose it to the, to your team leads all sorts of stuff,

but like, that's not the case everywhere, especially when you're in smaller firms.

So I mean, obviously as much as possible and right now, while we have this

very much, you know, the market is, I feel like in employees favor, right.

We there's a lot of open jobs I feel like we get to be a little

Hoosier than normal, sure, sure.

. Like being able to ask in the interview, it's like, if you get dismissed by the

interviewer at right, like that's a pretty good indicator that maybe that culture

is like, not where you want it to be.

Right.

Like, I.

I get frustrated when I see certain things in job postings or in interviews,

but then I just Reem like where it's like, oh, I don't wanna, I don't

wanna deal with that in this job.

. But you know, I am so sympathetic to people who are like, I just

don't even wanna bring it up I've been there so many times, it's okay

to just be like, you know what?

I'm gonna find ways to manage this on my own.

Without my employer's input and I'm not gonna worry about it.

That's such a valid position all the time about anything.

sure.

Pick your, pick your battles , yeah.

So other than disclosure are there any helpful ideas you might have

for staff or anyone else who's in the employee side of things

My first thing is if you don't have a diagnosis yet, please like

please work toward getting one.

With ADHD medication is one of, if not the most effective treatment, this is

absolutely generally agreed upon you can't get the medication without a diagnosis.

We all know it's a struggle to, to get this medication I've been

on this medication for years and it can still be such a struggle.

And I know that there are huge differences in safety, in medical

settings, especially for bipo folks for queer and gender nonconforming people.

And also we live in America and health insurance is really expensive and then it

doesn't cover any of the things you need.

Right.

So that is a huge barrier.

And I really acknowledge that.

I, I know.

You need resources to do this.

And I wish that we all had it because it can just, it can totally change your life

even if you don't realize how much you're carrying to have this internalized

dialogue about yourself, this self hatred, this feeling like a failure.

Like, you've let everyone down, like you're not living up to your potential.

Like, why can't, I mean, it's like every four months, like clockwork,

I have my little breakdown where I'm just like crying and I'm like, why

can't I just, I wish I was just normal.

I wish I wasn't like this.

And it's not true.

I, I don't really, I mean, I do in those moments and I do in some

moments, but overall, I don't.

But I don't think I would've.

Gotten to the point where that only happens every four months without

talking to someone who is like, Hey, it's really normal to feel frustrated, but

you and you can and should mourn those things, but you can't mourn them 24 7.

So talking to somebody who can validate how you're feeling and help you see the

silver lining it will consume you, is the only is really the thing I can say,

especially if you're just getting this repeated feedback that you're not doing

things right, or you're not good enough.

Like it's not sustainable and no matter how self-sufficient or

independent or strong you think you are, that's going to get to you.

And so, you have to have some, a friend, a therapist, a book, a

website there's so many good books.

Driven to distraction is a book.

I would really recommend that people read it's by Edward M Hallowell and John Rady.

Getting to read about other adults and knowing other people are going

through what you're going through that there are tools that can make you feel

less, totally out of control, but also really helpful to be aware of the risks

Involved with ADHD, folks tend to have a lower life expectancy mm-hmm and part

of it can be attributed to that search for dopamine, for exciting new things.

Making risky choices driving fast, using substances, not being careful in sexual

encounters, all sorts of stuff like that.

Also don't be afraid if you're like this isn't really working for me, but

it seems like the only solution, like time tracking was such a big one for me.

Oh, I struggled sure.

Okay.

At my old firm, we used TSheets I think it, it used to be called T sheet

sounds like Intuit time or whatever.

You know, Intuit is horrible.

But, and just podcast, not sponsored by Intuit and never

will be, don't even email us.

We'll reject you.

noted.

Remembering to change my timers was like a nightmare and there's not really an easy

way to, it's like kind of clunky, I just struggled with it for a long time where

I just had jacked up time all the time.

I to like make stuff up or whatever.

And then I was like, okay, I need, I like tend to, I like bounce.

So I'll like work on a thing and then I'll get hung up and I'll

ask the client for something and then I'll work on another thing.

And then the client will get back to me and then I'll go back to it.

And . And so I was like, well, I'll get a kitchen timer with three

timers on it was physical and it sat at my desk, but then I would

forget to reset one it never worked.

And I feel like I suffered for so long trying to make these tools

work for me instead, or trying to make myself work for these tools

really, instead of just finding a different tool that did work for me.

And I finally downloaded this, this's the silliest app it's called watch me.

And it's just a little.

Windows application that gives you, you can add as many timers as you want.

You can have tabs with different dates and each entry can have a note

and you can move them up and down and you can most importantly set it.

So that only one timer is going at a time.

And that was like, that was what I needed was multiple timers.

Where if I started one, it stopped the other.

Because like physical timers, aren't like, they're not for that.

They're, you're cooking three different things.

Mm-hmm , mm-hmm, , it's fine.

So much part of knowing yourself and accepting yourself is like, like

stop trying to make the tools that your neurotypical friends use work

for you if they don't work for her.

Sure.

It's okay to just be like, I know that everyone can use this with no

problems and I am not that person . And so I'm gonna find a new thing.

And it can be hard.

It can be hard to admit, like I'm in a group of a hundred people

and 99 of them can do this thing.

It's hard.

It it's hard to, yeah.

It's hard to be like, oh yeah, like couldn't do that thing that

everybody else could do again.

But you know then, but you feel so good when you get the thing that

does work and like that timer is now the thing I've used for years.

. Don't be afraid to shun tools that don't work for you.

If there's something else that gets the outcome that other people want,

but you got there in your own way.

Sure.

That's okay.

Like I know Sally used this work paper and this work paper makes literally no

sense so I'm gonna make a copy of it.

I'm gonna rearrange it the way that my brain likes it and I'm gonna do

it and then I'll have the answers.

And then I'll just plug 'em into that other work paper, whatever.

Like, if that makes you happy, if that's the way you wanna see it.

Cool.

But I couldn't have gotten there that way.

That's that's okay.

.The most life changing thing I ever did in my whole life was in my

last term of my bachelor's degree.

When I got diagnosed with ADHD.

I bought again, I recognize that these things are expensive.

I bought an iPad and an apple pencil, and I got the good notes app.

And it's just a I hate to say, just note taking it's like you can have folders

and files and you can make a notebook and you can make just a quick note

and you can kind of create outlines.

You can do whatever you want.

I straight up use folders and quick notes.

That's it.

And it is like every notebook you've ever owned in one.

So if you just have the one thing you have everything that you've

written down, if you're a hand writer, because I feel like lots of folks

with ADHD, like to hand write but.

Then you have a bunch of papers everywhere.

Mm.

And so to have them on the iPad is so cool.

And also you can search your own handwriting so you can search for wow.

Oh, I was writing about this and you can search for a word and

it'll search your handwriting.

Of course, people with ADHD also known for having horrible handwriting.

I also turned off badges badge notifications on my email and messages.

Mm-hmm so when I look at my phone, I, I have 7,000 unre emails.

I'm one of those people, but if you were to look at my phone, you'd be

like, oh my God, you have no unread emails, but also I'm not seeing that.

And being like, yeah, oh, I should see if there's anything new.

Oh, I have a text message.

I should see what it is.

There are like certain ways in which eliminating distractions can be really

helpful and certain ways in which they.

Just make things disappear even more, and then you completely forget about them.

So you kind of have to balance that.

But I feel like I've done that with the calendar app and with the, with

the badge notifications, for sure.

Is there anything else

The world doesn't quite understand the world is getting

better at understanding.

And the more you read about this and the more you talk to other

people or read their comic or blog or tweets or whatever about this,

you're gonna learn so much about it.

It's exciting to , see, to read about something and be

like, oh my God, I have that.

Or to read about something and be like, oh, that explains why my

friend Sarah is always like that.

It's a good way to see yourself.

It's a good way to get better at seeing yourself and to get better

at seeing others and seeing them completely and not just seeing the

ways in which they're deficient, the ways in which you're deficient,

the ways in which you are different.

Not enough can be said about how important it is to embrace

any, any struggle you're having.

It's totally okay to embrace all of those things that are horrible.

That is the only way that you can ever start feeling less horrible about them.

And, you know, just because you're a scatterbrained mess does not mean

that you can't be an accountant.

That's a wrap, my friends, reach out and let me know what you think.

I appreciate you listening in to this episode of under withheld, the podcast

by accountants and for accountants, where we talk about our ubiquitous

professional and personal struggles.