Join us for an enlightening discussion with seasoned herbalists Simon Mills and Sebastian Pole as they delve into the evolving landscape of herbal medicine and its integration into modern healthcare. This episode tackles the critical question: why isn't herbalism more mainstream, despite its proven benefits and growing demand?

Simon and Sebastian reflect on their extensive experiences in the field, exploring the historical and cultural barriers that have kept herbal medicine on the fringes of mainstream healthcare. They discuss the rigorous training and deep scientific knowledge required to become a herbalist, and why this expertise is often overlooked by conventional medical systems.

The conversation covers the challenges and opportunities facing herbal practitioners today, from regulatory hurdles to the booming herbal supplement industry. The duo also highlights the unique therapeutic gaps that herbal medicine can fill, particularly in chronic health conditions where modern medicine falls short.

Looking to the future, Simon and Sebastian share their vision for a more integrated healthcare system that embraces the power of plants. They discuss the importance of quality control in herbal products, the potential of herbalism to address the ageing population's needs, and the critical role of community and collaboration in advancing the field.

Discover how herbalism can contribute to a sustainable healthcare model that not only promotes individual well-being but also respects and preserves our natural environment. With a call to action for the next generation of herbalists, this episode is a rallying cry for unity and progress in the herbal community.

Explore a world of plant-powered knowledge at herbalreality.com or connect with us on Instagram @herbal.reality.

Herbcast is proudly produced by Decibelle Creative / @decibelle_creative

>> Sebastian: Hello there. Welcome to the herbcast, the podcast from herbal reality, delving into the plant powered world of herbalism. So, do you know your echinacea from your eleutherococcus, or your polyphenol from your polysaccharides? Whether you're a budding herbalist, an inquisitive health professional, or a botanical beginner, herbcast is here to inform and inspire you on your journey to integrating herbs in our everyday lives. So settle down, turn aside up, and let's start today's episode of the herbal reality herb cast.

>> Sebastian: Hi, everybody. Great to be with you all. And, I'm here with Simon. Good to be with you, Simon.

>> Simon: Hello, Sebastian. It's wonderful to be together again.

>> Sebastian: I know we haven't had a chat for a while, have we? We've both been out, there, interviewing people out there, from our homes, interviewing our fellow colleagues and herbalists.

>> Simon: We're competing with each other for backdrops. I think the clutter rather says it, doesn't it? We have a lot on our plates.

>> Sebastian: It's true, it's true. It's piled up over the years. I know you've enjoyed your conversations, and I've had some really enlightening conversations.

>> Simon: Absolutely. Yeah.

>> Sebastian: And I've been learning a lot. you know, a few standout things for me is when I was speaking with Graham Tobin about, cleansing and alteratives, he told me that he doesn't think alteratives exist. And, ah, I think that's an interesting view, that herbalist. We have some of these actions that need to be made more specific. Julian Barker also held me up on, nervines and whether they're a relevant category at all as well. And that we need to be much more specific in our language. And so that was a good learning.

>> Simon: and I've just been. I've just been amazed at what people have done. I mean, we've talked to some really impressive people in these herb casts, people who have rarely made contributions, made their way. I mean, one thinks of Mark Blumenthal in the US, who's almost single handedly brought herbal medicine into the much bigger conversation. and, you stand back and you warm your hands over it. The energy that some people have been able to put into this, it's so true.

>> Sebastian: There's just, a depth of experience and a wealth of knowledge, isn't there? and we've been getting lots of great feedback, and questions from our audience and, ah, other herbalists and interested medical practitioners and one thing that people have been asking me is how come, with all this great knowledge and expertise and evidence, why is herbalism not at the forefront of healthcare? Why aren't we on the NHS? Or why aren't we m part of mainstream healthcare? Simon, you're one of the most experienced herbalists in the world today, really, through, the time you put in and the studies you put in and your, clinical experience. And I just, you know, I know you've been involved in legal sides and political sides and clinical sides. I just wonder, what do you think, Simon? You know, what are the things behind why we're not more?

>> Sebastian: I hear that. I hear that, Simon, and I know that there'd be many a complication and there's a history there. But one of the things that strikes me with that is that, as herbalists, we want to serve our, community and serve as many people as possible. And of course, the NHS is free at the point of service. And herbal medicine certainly is not for most people. So there is a barrier. And so I just wonder how that limits access and or whether it drives people to an over the counter reality where obviously the herbal industries boomed and is booming or growing, should we say, you know, as people seek more control, over their health. And so not the,

>> Simon: Well, certainly in terms of our biggest impact on the wider populations is this herbal supplements and the herbal medicines that you buy over the counter that have made the big impact. and, you know, might dare remind you of the impact that pukka made in bringing herbal, the power of plants in the form of teas and supplements to a very much wider community than I was used to. so we know it can be done, but the practitioners seem to be lagging behind, don't they? and you know, I wonder whether some of my patients, and I m, most of my patients are, you know, regular people in regular work and regular employ. And I just wonder how freely they describe the wonders of their experience. Went to their friends and family saying they've been to a herbalist, because one suspects that in some quarters that would be. Oh, really? What's that? it's almost like. You mean you've gone over the, over the fence. There's almost something slightly other about herbalism at the moment. Whereas if they'd say they've been to an acupuncturist or an osteopath, no problem. Everyone now accepts that they're part of the system. And you can even get insurance for the other complementary practises that so far we've not been able widely to get. So yeah, there is a bigger question. Why are we lagging behind as practitioners? and what do we need to do? I think that's really where we want to go today, isn't it? What do we need to do to change that?

>> Sebastian: Yeah, and what's the, you know, what's behind this lack of trust, in the practise and the practitioners of, herbal medicine? Because as I understand it, the training is rigorous, you know, to become a herbalist is a, you know, full on medical study of many years, requiring, you know, scientific, medical, clinical and very specific knowledge of the materia medica and the, the herbal drugs, if you like, the herbal medicines we use. So what is this lack of trust that is in society? You know, it's confusing in the media when you read things. On one hand, herbs can cure all things. On the other hand, they can kill.

>> Simon: Dangerous.

>> Sebastian: Yes, they're dangerous. it seems like there's resistance from medical profession, towards herbalism to a large degree, from a, from a regulatory point of view anyway. And I yet there is a demand. We know there is a demand because as you were saying, the growth with pucker or the dietary supplements or food, supplement industry is growing. So there's obviously a need and a demand from our fellow colleagues, and citizens. So what do you think is behind some of this reluctance, prejudice, historical blockage?

>> Simon: Well, historical is probably the key, isn't it? Because, most of modern medicine is built on the premise that we've moved on from what they saw as their medievalisms of traditional medicine. And they all thought we were dying in squalor and misery until antibiotics came along and until modern surgery, surgical techniques and all the other things have come along and they've basically saved our lives. Well, you know, historically that's not true. I think, urban life has always been a challenge to the human being. because, you know, if we go back to where we lived in villages and farmsteads and up mountains, long life was quite common. and one's teeth usually remained in one's skull and one had other signs that generally were quite healthy. So I think it was probably the move into urban environments with, you know, all the sanitation and other challenges. And that's when in a way, herbal medicine lost the game because, you know, we couldn't compete with all that, you know, the sewerage and all the other things. and so you needed some heavy duty medicines to come in and save people's lives by half killing them. that's if in a crude sense, is where modern medicine came in. It fitted the new needs of an urbanisation society. So, you know, we find historically that the herbalists also moved into the cities in the UK at least, after the industrial revolution, but they moved straight in from the countryside, set up shop. Interesting that the shop was the actual channel through which they survived initially in cities. and I keep coming back to the idea that the apothecary model, where you have a front of house and a back of house, still remains the most tough, resilient, model we ever manage in this environment. yeah, so we, I think, you know, and there was some wonderful stories, wasn't there, in the 19th century, of new doctors who were very new in those days, family doctors, with empty waiting rooms looking out of the queues outside. The herbalist, because these were formerly country people, working class people who knew their herbs and who would rely trust their herbalists more than their doctor. So that's only 150 years ago, a bit more. 170 years ago, this was happening so we actually have lost some of that momentum. So it is an interesting question. How did we lose it? Well, I think one of my thoughts is that we're competing more directly with the conventional prescription, you know, whereas the acupuncturist and osteopath doesn't. We do. And so, as I said earlier, I think most of our modern medical contemporaries think that what we now do is old and not very precise and not very effective because we don't have the same side effects. We don't do things in the most cutting way. we are seen to be hanging on to old and not very effective with remedies. That's something that we both agree really needs to be put right.

>> Sebastian: Out of date perspective.

>> Simon: Plants truly have power. And I have a deeper thought that the reason they have power is because they most effectively harness the real power in the body, which is our healing functions. but it means that's changing the conversation because in conventional medicine the placebo is an inconvenient thing that you need to surpass. I would celebrate the placebo as a witness of what the body can do to heal itself with minimal intervention. And as I said once, sitting on a beach in Greece, I want to give better placebos when I grow up. You know, I want things that actually nudge, those healing powers. And that's where I see the power in plants, in my own practise that they're mobilising and firing up the innate healing powers we all have. That's a hugely powerful message, but it's also a transformative one. And maybe we haven't got the language in place yet. And the critical impact shift people's perceptions. I don't know. I'm reflecting a lot of years of thinking about this.

>> Sebastian: I know, I know it's a very big and broad question, with many different answers because there's sort of cultural, social, political, economic influences, aren't there, on all of these, all these things. But of course, medicine's regulation at some point has had an impact on the, the quality and the regulatory, strictures, should we say, in terms of providing medicines over the counter, part out of the back of the sixties and thalidomide crisis and things like that. Of course they've got to be a big focus on regulation and they applied.

>> Simon: Their regulatory framework onto our materials, which was always a tough fit.

>> Sebastian: Of course, you know, having a regulatory model around a single molecule that can be measured in purity is going to be a lot easier than having quality criteria around a plant that's got hundreds, if not thousands of compounds in it and is subject to all sorts of environmental variation. So.

>> Simon: Here'S another thought, and you can answer this one better than anybody. the way the shoe was not fitting was with the fact that we were saying we were using medicines. And, you know, I've been a member of the British Herbal Medicine association longer than anywhere else, and so have fought for that corner. But what we discovered, what you discovered in Pucker was that if we reclassify these things, or not reclassify, but remind people these are also foods with value added value that you can sometimes work through those crates. And, you know, I'd like you to reflect on what you were discovering in those early days of pukka, when you started off just making some herbal teas and suddenly started engaging. What do you think was happening to get people to say, aha, I like this, and this looks as though it's useful to me. And I like the nighttime and I like the digestive, and I like the other teas here because they seem to work. What do you think was going on there? Because you were witnessing something really exciting.

>> Sebastian: Yeah, I mean, you know, that was back in the early two thousands when I set pucker up. And I suppose early on in my studies of herbalism, I was like, I felt like there was a herbal deficiency syndrome going on in society. I was like, how come there's all these amazing plants that I haven't heard about, and no one seems to be using very much of many of them taste delicious. why aren't they being used? And then I started looking into, you know, there was emergent evidence and research coming out showing that if people included a certain amount of colourful plants in their diets, then of course, that led to reductions in certain sort of inflammatory processes, etcetera. And so, it was really, you know, a desire to connect people with plants and connect people with their, the feeling that they can evoke very quickly in us, basically, and the fact that they can quickly reset us into our sort, of best self in that moment, if you like. And of course, hot water can do that on its own to a certain degree. A cover. Hot water does, sitting down and being calmer, a cup of good old builder's, tea or green tea or whatever can do that as well. But, you know, there are 300,000 flowering plants in the world, you know, 10% of which we've used for medicines and or in our diet. And, as, you know, food supplements as such, health supplements. And so it seemed like a natural step where there was such a lot of tea drunk in this country, but only a couple of species of plants, you could say, if you throw coffee, chocolate and key into it. And there were all these plants that, were, accessible for people, but they weren't being used, of course, with lots of other herbal tea companies, but I don't think they were led by herbalists or they weren't, developed with a herbal team and as lucky at Pucker to have some of the best herbalists in the world working there. And so as a group, we could drive the connection with people. I think what was happening is people were awakening to the benefits. That's what happened. It was like it met a need with people seeking how to not have caffeine, how to have a healthier lifestyle.

>> Simon: So what was those early feedbacks that you were getting when the pucker teas were growing at the rate they did? I mean, there was, there was a little bit of this sort of curve, wasn't it? I mean, they slow. But then it began to pick up.

>> Sebastian: Oh, yes, I know, I know where it was about at least eight years before we really started getting, proper momentum and distribution.

>> Simon: So what I'm interested in is what drove that momentum. What was the feedback you were getting from the people who were selling out? Our, people at pukka who were tramping around the shops, whether that was the health shops or the supermarkets. What suddenly was the word coming back.

>> Sebastian: That I was surprised it could taste good? I think that was one of the main things. People are like, oh, this actually tastes good because in a lot of the herb industry, people are using pretty basic bog standard grade of herbs, especially back then. It's moved on quite a bit since then. But just using a, herbalist grade herb, you could call it what would be coming out of the pharmacapeal grade. So making sure you've got the right amount of essential oils, other, other compounds, colourful pigments, etc. In there. That was the main thing. blending them in a way that would actually be a mirror, if you like, of a gentle herbal prescription, using a low dose of things as well. So a low, measure of one to two grammes and you can get this amazing flavour and a better night's sleep, or help you digest your meal. and I think you, lent on it earlier. I think it was just that the herbs initiate the body's own healing process, you can say. But also you could just say the, the herbs help the body do what it's trying to do, anyway. They help us digest, they help us sleep, they help us reduce inflammation. And so that's how I saw it with pukka, was literally just giving people little bits of benefit in their life and then feeling that. And I, you know, simon have had. I mean, we've been blessed. We've had thousands of letters from people, you know, appreciating how their lives have changed from a simple. A simple cup of tea. And so if you think what a simple cup of tea can do, what do you think going to see a herbalist can do? You know, it's like you supercharging the knowledge that you have about your health. If you see a herbalist and can only understand the nuances and the similarities of your own health.

>> Simon: If only we could just hold that for a moment. I mean, that's what, when I joined pucker, that's what really excited me, was that you had made that jump from us, you know, beavering away in our, practises to actually speaking to a much wider need and a much wider audience. It's really exciting. And I also remember, you know, just the people who were pukka consumers were so much more lively and, you know, energising than we had been used to in our own community. So, you know, can we. You know, I'm still thinking, we've done it. We've seen it happen. There. Is there any way that we could, envisage doing that again?

>> Sebastian: I mean, the mirror is, in a way, is that, you know, not that we want this to be about pucker per se, but, you know, you take the idea of a community of people totally focused on something absolutely dedicated to, you know, quality, sustainability, you know, doing the best job you could do. If you put that into an organisation of professional practitioners and we could find a way of harmonising some of the approaches, then I think you've got something super powerful. So maybe let's go back to what we were talking about. How did we get here? But what is the state of herbalism today? Let's see how far around the world we get. But we can start in the UK and maybe we'll cross a bit of Europe and America. You know, what is going on today in terms of how many organisations are there? Who are the main bodies? What's the scene?

>> Simon: Yeah, well, I would first of all hit off with a cultural observation, which is one that I used to amuse people with. And still, I think is correct, is that there are only five countries in the world where herbal medicine is in a minority and they happen to be the UK, give or take Ireland, but the UK, north, America, both the US and Canada, Australia, New Zealand. And what is the common feature of those five countries? and, I'll leave that in the air. It's fairly obvious, I would have thought, what that was. So there's something about the anglo saxon experiment that seems to have been particularly disadvantageous for us, because if you go into France, if you go into Germany, if you go into the Netherlands, if you go into Spain or any other european country, you'll find herbal medicine very prominent in every pharmacy.

>> Sebastian: But not professionally, though, you know, it's definitely.

>> Simon: Well, then in some countries, Germany for is notable. They used to be. And recently you need to do your foetal therapy exam, to practise. and although they had rather disembowelled the traditions and were using only simple one line in medicines, there was still an expectation culturally that there would be, a herbal component. And in France, I think, was not so long ago, 10% of prescriptions were feto therapy. so although it wasn't what we understand as herbal medicine, there was a cultural assumption that herbs were okay, I think you're right.

>> Sebastian: There is in mainland Europe, a greater affinity with nature, and plants and the outdoors, et cetera, you could say. But it's not. I wouldn't say it's championed across Europe.

>> Simon: As a, not as a practise that we know comes back to the idea of that. We actually are almost unique in Europe of having a herbal practitioner sector. it's illegal. And still in some countries, you know, in France, still, it's illegal to be a herbalist, technically. And, there wasn't so long ago that one of us was in jail for practising herbal medicine. So, yeah, there are regulatory barriers and when you go further east, you find even more peculiar things because there, herbal medicine is much bigger because it's cheaper. In the old Soviet Union, it was very big because it was cheaper. but it has now become, a lot of that initiative has been sort of westernised. So some of that culture of using herbs as a first line defence seems to have gone. but then when you go out of Europe and into Asia and into other parts of the world, you'll find, of course, as we all know, herbal medicine still very prominent.

>> Sebastian: Well, in China, obviously, there's billions of prescriptions being written every year as well. Although I wouldn't say I've got more experience in India, I wouldn't say that Ivan is exactly. Lauded as a high class profession. You know, it's, I'd say it's still.

>> Simon: A popular thing rather than a professional thing, isn't it?

>> Sebastian: Yeah, basically I wouldn't, you know, of course it's get support from the government and there's a whole department, government, department Ayush, etcetera. But I wouldn't say it's held in the highest respect. I still think there's a pejorative mindset around, ah, plants and, you know, maybe.

>> Simon: And that's an interesting theatre, isn't it? I mean, as you say, you know India quite well. I mean, what do you think has driven the professional caste against us?

>> Sebastian: Well, I think you said it in terms of the sort of anglo saxon experiment. I think sort of, you know, infiltrated some of that thinking. And it's slightly unfair to put it like that. You could call it the enlightenment movement. You know, it's the desire to help and heal, I think is obviously behind a lot of contemporary, all contemporary medicine is to remove suffering. And I just think there's a perception, often rightly so, that it's quick and fast and can do a lot of the work. It's just there's been a division, and I think could be down to us needing to get our act together as herbalists to have more professional courses, to have greater regulation. And I. The supplies and the herbs are supplying and also in our, ethical development as professional organisations. That is all in place now, of course, every organization's got highly sort of ethically developed, professional, organisations. but still in the UK we seem to have quite a few different organisations that operate and, you know, we feel marginalised, I'd say, you know, we are marginalised, you know, politically, socially, economically. Herbs are geographically marginalised. They often grow in the perimeter or the periphery of society.

>> Simon: Yeah, so, and you know, I spent a lot of my time with doctors, actually, and have done all my life, working life. and so I'm on the council of the college, of Medicine, originally, the foundation of Integrated Health. and interestingly, I'm the only complementary practitioner on the council of the Golledge of Medicine. Most of them are gps, one or two consultants, but mostly gps. And we keep asking ourselves the question, you know, why is the Golledge of Medicine's membership mainly complementary practitioners and the council mainly doctors? And, you know, I've had so much experience of giving presentations, providing learning experiences for doctors and they all get very excited when they sort of peer under the bonnet of herbal medicine and they begin to see oh, really? This is fantastic. But then they go back to their practises and their hospitals or wherever they work and find it almost impossible to apply those principles. So we really have a tough one to get into that system of medicine that we now are in. we seem to find it really hard going. So do we do something radical? And I think probably we do, where we build our, message among the community that is ready for it and get it strong and then be resilient when things start flying at us, or when the NHS gets really broken, or whatever it is, that we're match fit, so to speak. or, and do we think that we're going to impress the regulators and the medical advisory panels and all the other things that get in our way? My guess is we won't. That somehow we need to find, as you were alluding to a minute ago, to find our own community. Get at strong, reduce the tribal factions that there are within the herbal community, see if we can find that voice that we want.

>> Sebastian: There's plenty of marginalised communities, sadly, that are good at joining together and creating a loud noise and action for their smaller community, isn't that?

>> Simon: Yes, and.

>> Sebastian: I just feel that we have so much potential that we could offer there. And of course that is happening as well. So we're not saying that these things aren't happening. We will inherit the sort of history of our ancestors in a way, and then various different forces, don't we? It feels that after the, should we say, the last challenge of the regulatory working group and the efforts that were imposed on herbalist perhaps to seek professional regulation and some of the issues that arose there between the different approaches, that was. How many years ago was that now, Simon? Was that ten years ago now or something like that?

>> Simon: No, it was longer. Yes. Time just rolled by, doesn't it?

>> Sebastian: So, it feels like, from what I hear, that lots of the herbal schools in western herbal medicine and chinese herbal medicine anyway, are, in great demand that they are getting filled with students, the Hartford Platonicas of the world, Northern Golledge of Chinese Medicine, et cetera. there is a demand, big educational demand.

>> Simon: It's because it's such an attractive, career occupation, not a career, because we don't have a career child. But to, to be able to spend your life helping people with natural remedies is such a privilege. And you can see the attraction. Yeah. there is, as you say, keep saying there is a demand. We haven't yet been able to tap into that bigger, and want out there. but yeah, it's, you know, when we thought, when all the universities closed down and we thought that we weren't going to suddenly get any more students, the private colleges stepped up, as you just said. And so now, as you say, we've got a wealth of new talent coming in. Can we harness this new energy?

>> Sebastian: It feels exciting, doesn't it? From that point of view, wherever, I, There seems to be lots more research going on to herbal medicine. Almost exponential growth in clinical research, and very relevant understandings of safety. there's a really, much greater awareness of sustainability and areas around where we're sourcing our plants and how the harvesters are, ah, looked after. But also it appears that there's some very strong, therapeutic gaps that we could fill, is that we could have some very clear role in certain, I mean, across all areas of health. But there seem to be some areas where there's particularly good evidence of herbal medicine with, you know, better than me, really, but, you know, with regards to immunity, inflammation, circulation, some of these areas that modern medicine can help, you know, alleviate often and support, but doesn't have such good solutions. We could really.

>> Simon: What we call the therapeutic gaps. Yes. Yeah. very, very strong feeling here that, you know, and I think we all agree, modern medicines is fantastic for mending broken things and for when things have gone past the point of no return, but where there's any opportunity for the. To fire up your healing powers, that's when we can really be much better. I remember a very, intense discussion. It was Jonathan Miller was one of them, you know, the playwright and doctor with medical colleagues, one on late night show where, you know, they admitted when they were pushed against the wall, that their medicines don't heal. What they do is they put something in place to allow the body to heal. And they had to admit that actually the healing is not done by the doctor or the medicine that's done by the person doing it. And that's a profound statement, which, you, know, doctors will admit if they think hard enough about them, that these magical medicines that they, that the farmer creates, don't heal. So we have this capacity to step in after the doctor's been, so to speak, and left the sort of mess behind. You know, they fixed the tumour or the lesion or whatever, but there's still a person there needing to rebuild their lives and their health. That's often manifest more in what we might call chronic illness, because that's where increasingly modern medicine isn't very good at. You can alleviate the pain, you can alleviate the inflammation, but things then start falling off at the end. What we could do really fundamentally, is to get in at that time when the body is struggling to repair itself and give it the extra welly that it wants. So I think almost any chronic condition is we're in a stronger place than modern medicine. So chronic inflammation, chronic immunological problems, certainly anything to do with the gut is, Yeah, that's our space, isn't it? and I would add, because we're dealing with, you know, the modern needs, I would add old age as a condition that we really should get sharper on because we do have, I mean, all the smart money is now saying that you can't reduce inflammation in the brain, which is now understood as the main factor in many long term ageing and psychological or mental and neurological conditions. You can't do that easily with modern medicines. But some of the things you find in green tea or in rosemary or in, blueberries or whatever they are, these are the things that seem to get through and do the job. We've got an ageing population, there's a huge health crisis. Why are we sitting here?

>> Sebastian: Well, the article you wrote on the brain as a vascular organ and neurodegeneration sums it up really well. If anyone wants to read Simon's article on that, I'd go and have a look at reality site, because it's very revealing, really. so lots of potential. So I think there's summing up, you know, we've got this solid base. We've got a great, broad community with potential to collaborate and harmonise further. What, you know, it'd be good to talk about the future and what that holds. and perhaps we should touch on as well, given that you just mentioned, how we could focus on ageing there and, you know, a couple of our herbs that are particularly useful for that are under threat. One, rhodiola, has recently gone on the list as a. Cites, an endangered species and is, now banned for trade unless it can be proven to be from a sustainable source or cultivated. And ashwagandha, of course, as well, which is super popular, but has been recent, articles, research over the last few years coming out of northern, Europe and America and now India, about its potential liver, toxicity. So maybe you could talk about Ashwagandha for a minute and what you. How that reflects on some of the safety issues we face, and then we could talk a bit more about the future and what we can do.

>> Sebastian: M so dangerous. The wonderful world of extracts, standardising things around, isolated, you know, compounds.

>> Simon: But, I mean, you had a lot of time with ashwagandha when you were looking for pucker. I mean, what did you reckon was the. How was quality and other things managed in its homeland? Was, there different stuff sent for export than used domestically? Was there any issues like that that you spotted?

>> Sebastian: Oh, yeah, definitely things like that are going on. I mean, the Ashwagandha business in India over the last 20 years, which is how long I've been involved with it really has just grown exponentially. You can't figure, on it, I don't think even, And there are large tracts of land where it's grown as a crop. in the normal agricultural sector, there's only use of the root, was my experience, basically. And that's, pretty rigorously done. But in the extract industry, which I've visited many extract sites in India, you'll often see Ashwagandha, with the leaf and the root together, because in the leaf there is some, with analytes as well, with ginseng. I think the same thing's happened, hasn't it, Simon, these valuable neptogenic herbs. so yeah, it's the extract industry, really. And that's the challenge when you get these super concentrated extracts, which I think was the same problem with Carver.

>> Simon: It was similar.

>> Sebastian: So, I was in the organic sector, in a sort of pharmacopoeia organic sector. So we were just working in a very authentic way, should we say, or a way that was monitored to do it properly. But yeah, in the trade, there's definitely a lot of leaf for sale because it's a, you know, a waste product, essentially. And if it's got some compounds in.

>> Simon: It, it's got some of the actives in there. Yes, probably too much of the ones that seem to be most linked to.

>> Sebastian: I mean, it's very small levels with analytes and ashwagandha anyway, so everyone's looking at ways of boosting it. And, you know, some of these you're seeing 5% with analyte extracts and things like that, when it's only at 0.1% in the plant, I don't know, puts my blood pressure up.

>> Simon: Exactly. And I think that is one of the challenges we've got, which is that the industry sometimes lets us down because it's meeting a commercial demand. It's a little, you know, what happens if we suddenly become popular? you know, there is prices to pay, isn't there? Because, you know, we have the luxury so far of watching our quality fairly closely because we've a fairly small business. But if we started getting mega, would we all be suddenly swamped by these same challenges of having to cut costs?

>> Sebastian: And I think it's just incumbent, particularly from, you know, we're talking about herbalist in a way, which is almost a different sector to the over the counter world. I think it's just incumbent on herbalist to just work really closely with their suppliers and make sure their suppliers are doing the job they need. For them in terms of only routes, testing for any contaminants, whether they be environmental or industrial, and then checking for market compounds, I think indiscreet basic, which, you know, most reliable suppliers in the UK for ayurvedic, chinese and western herbalism do.

>> Simon: Of course we should put a, should put a call out to the british herbal medicine association, have it with their herbal practitioner supplier scheme and their new herb mark, and you know, strongly recommend our colleagues to look for suppliers, who have the herb mark now. And that is now m most of our good ones, you know, the ones that we know are good, have got that herb mark, basically ensures that.

>> Sebastian: You get an independent auditor going into the company and doing a proper sort of. We don't have.

>> Simon: It's not a police mark, we're beat to make and there never be a police operation, but it at least it's a self, audited that they cheque the boxes, that they've done this, that and the other. And that's a lot, a lot further than simply just not bothering, which can happen. Yeah, you're quite right. Let's bump up the value of quality by buying our stock from people who put the effort in.

>> Sebastian: It's a challenge there. And I think the advice you've given about Ashwagandha, is preemptive to the community in terms of what to look out for. We know that all medicine is dependent on the context of who is having how much of what and when. And you know, you mentioned the chinese medicine trial looking at liver, problems. I just want to put into context in chinese medicine. I can't remember the exact doses used in that trial, but chinese medicine tends to use much, much higher doses than in western herbal medicine by a factor of ten or 20 often. So we should just bear that in mind that it's a different game, altogether, potentially. But when you're treating some of these acute skin diseases or things like that, you need to use much higher doses. And so that's part of that, part of that approach as well, where it's highly successful. And you know, western and chinese ayurvedic dermatologists do extremely well because they can be so, effective in treating.

>> Simon: Well, that's interesting because what they're doing is they're stepping in where I've just said we weren't, which is in the acute sector. you know, in our home practises, we're not doing acute medicine very often. Occasionally I get a call in the middle of the night, but not often.

>> Sebastian: We do get a bit of acute skin. We get, I mean, there's no doubt about that because in a way. But it can often m. Be chronic. It's acutely, acutely uncomfortable.

>> Simon: Yeah. And, so much of our tradition was built on what we might call acute medicine. You know, as you said, much higher doses for acute emergency conditions, which we've, in a sense, got the luxury of not having to deal with so often. And we've, our doses have come down consequently. so presumably our risk of stirring things up comes down a bit as well. but that's an interesting thing. And if you look at the history, of european and uk herbal medicine, it has been a dose reduction history and remedies that were used, for example, for fever management, you know, one thinks of Hawthorne, for example, classic example, have morphed into something that actually our, forebears didn't know anything about. Blood pressure and, circulatory conditions, which they, in the way we understand it, they didn't have any reason to know anything about. So it's interesting how medicine can morph and shift to fit new cultural and technical perceptions.

>> Sebastian: But sometimes it's always as though we set this up because, which we haven't in that way, leading into the future. It'd be good to just chat briefly about what are some of the things we think that might hold for herbal medicine in terms of opportunities and challenges. We mentioned Ashwagandha there and we're leaning right into that as a current present opportunity. That can be, a challenge if we don't manage it properly. What are some of the other areas you think you're excited about?

>> Sebastian: Quiet emergency. It's like nuclear bombs. No one talks about them, but it's obviously the biggest threat to world safety. And it's not antibiotics. What is it? 30,000 people died in Europe last year.

>> Simon: And it's just going like this. So, but, you know, how do we respond to that and come back to the point? We need to get our message clear. We need to have a community adhesion amongst ourselves that can deliver this message in a way that makes sense to people who haven't heard it before and who immediately don't immediately say, oh, it's herbal. That's old fashioned. It's not real, it's not proper, it's not, you know, it's not scientific, it's not. Not serious. We need to break through those barriers in a way that makes sense. So we need some good spokespeople, we need some good friends, we need some. We need some clear messaging.

>> Sebastian: Yes. I mean, I like what you said there about the, you know, the community gathering together to have a more coherent and consistent voice around some of these more controversial areas and, you know, with the obvious need of the climate and nature crisis that we're all living in at the minute, I feel very positive about herbalism being able to offer a solution for sustainable healthcare where the medicines you're using or the sources you're using for your health don't then pollute the environment afterwards. We know the problems in our rivers around the UK with physiological levels of drugs, the atmospheric problems happening from inhalers. I know there's all sorts of challenges going on with what we can do as a community towards the nature, crisis. And of course, because we are, you know, not to be arrogant about it, but we are the community and the tradition that holds the repository of knowledge about nature and our relationship with plants through many generations. And I think we have the sort of moral authority, if you like, to present the case for why sustainable healthcare has got a place that includes plants, but includes professional herbalists who advise around how to use those plants. And I think that our clients and members of the public want healthcare solutions that contributes to a better world as well as better health.

>> Simon: And they almost need it now rather than want it, don't they?

>> Sebastian: Yeah, need it.

>> Simon: Ending my thoughts here on this with a real note of optimism, because, like you, I've seen the quality of the herbal students coming through and so many of them are accomplished already in one field or another and they've made a decision to shift tack and, and study this field of ours. and they're young, I mean, literally in twenties and thirties, some of them. So these are going to be our new community. And you know, I think it's a, we mustn't put dampers on their enthusiasm by saying, oh, how difficult it's always been. We want to just rediscover our enthusiasms again and just say, let's go for it. The need is now greater than ever. As you said, it's piling in on us. There's an urgency now of getting this up and going and I think, heavens, we've got some good new people coming in.

>> Sebastian: Well, you heard it here. Call out to the students, of the future, the potential, to help meet the needs of the current health crisis that is evident with the growth in chronic disease. And we all know that herbal practise is so well placed to meet many of those needs. And it's been really great, Simon, to just chew over some of these points and have a look back and you know, feel, feel what's going on now. And just sense into the future, really what we can offer, as a, community in all the different areas, whether it's in clinical practise or whether it's anyone involved in industry and what you can do there to, enhance the quality and conversation. so, yeah, I know we both feel very privileged to be herbalists ourselves, but also to be part of this incredible community of people that's, so full of talent and the inspiration of the plant is completely infectious and I think is what gives us all, you know, bunches of enthusiasm.

>> Simon: So I'm reminded of, I'm reminded of a canned heat song. Let's get together. as the message isn't it, this is now a time for us to bring all our, enthusiasms and energies together and just get on and do it.

>> Sebastian: And there's great organisations in different countries. You know, there's american herbalist guilds. Then in the UK, there's the BHMA and the EHTPA, in the National Institute in America, you know, I mean, Australia, there's a very powerful there. Yeah, we, must, we must work with what's there, I think, and fill gaps with the energy we've got where there are gaps. And so, yeah, thank you for sharing everything, Simon, all your time, your wisdom is much appreciated.

>> Simon: It's a, real privilege to be working with you, Sebastian. I, feel very lucky on many fronts. This being one of them.

>> Sebastian: Good. And, thanks to everybody listening and joining in and supporting us at, herbal reality and I supporting this Herb cast. you know, we're here to, bring you insights into the world of herbalism. So, do share with us any topics or insights you'd like us to discuss. And yeah, herbal blessings. Take care.

>> Simon: More Herb cast to follow.

>> Sebastian: Yeah, cheers.

>> Sebastian: You've been listening to the herb cast, the podcast from herbal reality. We hope you enjoyed, enjoyed this episode. If so, perhaps you'd like to leave us a rating that'd really help us to spread our message for Herbal health. We hope you'll join us again for the next episode. And in the meantime, if you'd like a few more herbal insights from us, do have a look@herbalreality.com or learn more from us via Instagram where we're at herbal reality, and we're on Twitter and Facebook too. We'll be back with another episode of the Herb car soon.

>> Sebastian: Thanks for joining.