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Retrospective: 9 Expert Insights on the Podcast Industry
Bonus Episode21st May 2024 • In & Around Podcasting • Mark Asquith, Danny Brown & Friends
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As the industry descends on the Podcast Show 2024 in London, UK, we take a look back at the first couple of months of In & Around Podcasting.

We've covered a wealth of important topics, and been delighted to bring some fantastic insights around these topics from both industry insiders and indie podcasters. So sit back, and enjoy this recap.

Featured in this episode: @smashleyhamer on Twitter @JamesCridland on Twitter @jcasabona on Twitter @webby2001 on Twitter @VeritySangan on Twitter Deirdre's Facebook group Sam's Facebook page

In & Around Podcasting is a podcast industry podcast brought to you by Mark Asquith and Danny Brown.

If you enjoy the show, we'd love for you to leave us a rating or review on your favourite podcast app!

If you're an independent creator who would like to co-host with us, please let us know via Twitter and we'll get you booked!

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The podcast is also available at In & Around Podcasting.



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Transcripts

Danny:

Hi, and welcome to this special bonus episode of In &

Danny:

Around Podcasting, the industry show that shares powerful

Danny:

podcasting perspectives. As thousands of podcasters descend

Danny:

on The Podcast Show in London, including my erstwhile co-host

Danny:

Mark Asquith, we thought we'd take the opportunity to look

Danny:

back at the first few months of In & Around Podcasting. We've

Danny:

covered a wealth of important topics and been delighted to

Danny:

bring some fantastic insights around these topics from both

Danny:

industry insiders and indie podcasters. So sit back and

Danny:

enjoy this recap. In episode one, we talked about the narrative

Danny:

around the death of podcasting, that some naysayers are

Danny:

promoting, down to reduced budgets, industry layoffs, the

Danny:

dropping of exclusive podcasts and more. Verity Sangan shared

Danny:

how she believes a lot of this can come down to a lack of

Danny:

strategy in podcasting.

Verity:

This is where I think a lot of this argument comes with

Verity:

podcasting is dead is because I think that there are a lot of

Verity:

people who have tried with podcasting. Maybe they have been

Verity:

part of the, you know, statistical 80% or whatever it

Verity:

is that you don't get past episode three or what have you.

Verity:

And maybe podcasting didn't work for them. But then one of the

Verity:

things that I'm really interested in and I'm such a

Verity:

strategy girl everything for me is strategy. And people get fed

Verity:

up of hearing me say the word strategy sometimes, I think. But,

Verity:

you know, it's this idea of if you start anything, I think then

Verity:

you aren't going to see the success. And I'm saying success

Verity:

in inverted commas, because I do believe that success is going to

Verity:

look different for different people. And it's that idea that

Verity:

unless you do have a plan and you do have a strategy, then

Verity:

you're not going to see that success. And I think you're then

Verity:

going to continue to feed into the narrative of, well, yeah,

Verity:

podcasting is dead because it didn't work for me. It didn't

Verity:

work for Joe Bloggs or whoever. I didn't immediately become the

Verity:

next the next I was going to say Seth Rogan then - no Joe Rogan,

Verity:

very different person. I didn't become the next, you know, Joe

Verity:

Rogan within a week. So what was the point? And I think that just

Verity:

feeds that narrative.

Danny:

Episode two saw us taking a look at the Podcasting 2.0

Danny:

initiative and how that's making the listener experience better.

Danny:

Here, Joe Casabona shared some great points on how the industry

Danny:

can position the benefits of the features, which are what both

Danny:

podcasters and listeners are really interested in.

Joe:

I think it really is kind of up to the industry folks to...

Joe:

it's almost like saying like as a carmaker, I don't want to oh

Joe:

well, only less than like less than 1% of people die from car

Joe:

crashes. So I'm not going to put airbags in my car. Like, well,

Joe:

that's a crazy thing to say. But I think like again, from the

Joe:

kind of feature standpoint, there are, as I watch the

Joe:

Podcasting 2.0 space and some of the features that get

Joe:

implemented and the things that I think are going to be most

Joe:

helpful, that's that's kind of where I land. So like

Joe:

transcripts I've been bullish on, like transcripts are necessary

Joe:

for a podcast. Like I my show, my current show, my flagship

Joe:

show also launched in twenty sixteen. In twenty seventeen, it

Joe:

had transcripts because, you know, I think that it's an

Joe:

accessibility play, it's a search play. It's a lot of

Joe:

things. And so it's really cool to see

Joe:

Apple and other people kind of implement this and give native

Joe:

support to it. Things like chapter markers. I think that's

Joe:

that's technically Podcasting 2.0. Maybe

Joe:

that's like support it if you want. It's like kind of hard to

Joe:

add. Maybe other apps do it better, but I think about what's

Joe:

going to make the biggest impact based on my clients or students

Joe:

goals, right? We want to grow the show. Transcripts are

Joe:

necessary for that, chapter markers if you're going to

Joe:

upload it to YouTube now. Right. And there is like the medium tag

Joe:

now. So that's pretty cool to see. Maybe we maybe we do that

Joe:

It's I guess it's all very goals based is the most succinct way

Joe:

for me to put it.

Danny:

In episode three, we had a wonderful discussion around AI

Danny:

and podcasting, including the ethical dilemmas around its use

Danny:

and what it means for creators. Deirdre Tshien used an example

Danny:

of how a creator leads by human expertise, and AI takes that to

Danny:

enhance the content for results.

Deirdre:

A lot of it is introducing them to the

Deirdre:

strategies that we really lean into that actually gets them

Deirdre:

results. So, you know, an example is Katie Brinkley, who

Deirdre:

is a social media guru. She talks about a four post social

Deirdre:

media strategy and why I love the four post social media

Deirdre:

strategy is because, again, it's not content for content sake. I

Deirdre:

mean, yes, you're still creating content, but you're creating

Deirdre:

content in order to drive a particular like action, whether

Deirdre:

that's engagement on social media or whether that's opt in

Deirdre:

to a lead magnet or into a workshop. Right, Because we're

Deirdre:

talking to entrepreneurs here. And so like so for me, if I

Deirdre:

could share these strategies that are very human led and hey,

Deirdre:

AI can yes. Help you, you know, shortcut and make it way more

Deirdre:

efficient to give you the base of, for example, these four

Deirdre:

posts. But one of them, for example, one of the posts is

Deirdre:

actually what she calls a community post, which is all

Deirdre:

about your story. Like, AI cannot actually generate that.

Deirdre:

Like it just cannot because it can't, you know, until we have

Deirdre:

chips in our brains or whatever, like it actually doesn't know

Deirdre:

your memories, it doesn't know your story. So you actually have

Deirdre:

to be part of that process to like help create that post. I

Deirdre:

mean, yes, AI can give you inspiration, which Capsho does

Deirdre:

do, which is like, Hey, maybe based on the topic of your

Deirdre:

podcast, this is a story that you can bring to life or, you

Deirdre:

know, it'll give you some ideas, but at the end of the day it's

Deirdre:

still you.

Danny:

Episode four saw Mark and I review Podcast Movement

Danny:

Evolutions along with where live podcast events have

Danny:

opportunities. This includes defining industry events from

Danny:

consumer events.

Mark:

But yeah, that would be, that would be a just my bit of

Mark:

feedback would be if it's going to be I think if it's going to

Mark:

be industry just LA just feels industry you know L.A. or New

Mark:

York personally feel that industry. You've got a hot spot

Mark:

over there. You've got, you know, that that whole concept of the

Mark:

podcast industry. And I think that's why London does so well

Mark:

and why the podcast should do so well, because here in Europe,

Mark:

London is the hub. You know, you've got Global, you've got

Mark:

the BBC, you've got The Guardian, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph,

Mark:

you've got all of these people that are really taking up the

Mark:

top spots, even some of the networks like Sky, like, you

Mark:

know, people like Channel Four and ITV, some of the rewatch

Mark:

stuff, they're all in one place and it feels like LA is like the

Mark:

spiritual counterpart of that in the US. So I just feel that it

Mark:

could be don't know if it would benefit from it, but I just feel

Mark:

it sort of sounds logical and feels logical. And I know there

Mark:

are logistical and financial incentives and challenges to

Mark:

overcome and whatever else, but it feels like Podcast Movement

Mark:

industry stuff sort of needs a home, like it needs to be just

Mark:

bound to somewhere where you might be able to add a bit of

Mark:

demarcation between, okay, here's the creative stuff and

Mark:

here's the industry stuff.

Danny:

In episode five, we took a look at why the smaller

Danny:

podcast apps have a future. As Apple and Spotify continue to

Danny:

mop up the majority of listeners between them, Sam Sethi stated

Danny:

the case for smaller apps to make interactivity between

Danny:

podcast and listener key and how that can help set these apps

Danny:

apart.

Sam:

Discovery of content is a critical thing. One of the

Sam:

things that Apple and Spotify don't have is any interactivity

Sam:

back to the creator, and that's a big thing. So the ability to

Sam:

leave comments, living with a cool boost. So, you know, we've

Sam:

got this new language that's got to be adapted to people, but a

Sam:

boost is simply just a comment with a payment. And then again,

Sam:

that means that you can leave two things. You can have

Sam:

comments back to the creator who can then in the next episode go,

Sam:

Hey, I was just doing the show and Mary said, blah, blah, blah

Sam:

about the show. And you've then got that audience participation,

Sam:

that community, and then there's fan to fan. So that two people

Sam:

might be talking about your show and can leave a comment so they

Sam:

don't have to include the creator. So I think what we're

Sam:

looking at is new ways of enabling listeners to interact

Sam:

and discover content and new ways for you as a creator, to

Sam:

reach your audience, create your fan base, create your community.

Sam:

Those are things that Apple and Spotify aren't very good at

Sam:

doing is creating that community element and that interactivity

Sam:

element.

Danny:

In episode six we talked about a topic that probably

Danny:

every podcast has faced before, and that's podfade, with new

Danny:

data showing that a large percentage of podcasters don't

Danny:

make it past episode five. Here, Ashley Hamer explains how

Danny:

finding your specific niche and planning episodes several months

Danny:

ahead of publication can help prevent podcasters from giving

Danny:

up so early.

Ashley:

But for for the ability to actually just keep making my

Ashley:

show week after week, it's it's really the that thing I was

Ashley:

saying about internal motivation. Like I, I didn't see a podcast,

Ashley:

a science podcast that specifically talked about, you

Ashley:

know, the taboo topics in in our world. And I wanted to make that

Ashley:

and I wanted that to exist. And so that kind of driving force is,

Ashley:

is really powerful. It helps me keep going. And then and then in

Ashley:

addition to that, I think every podcaster needs to have a really

Ashley:

long list of, of episode topics. You know, it's really easy to

Ashley:

come up with five. It's not that easy to come up with thirty. And

Ashley:

that's kind of your deciding factor of like whether this idea

Ashley:

for a podcast actually has legs and, and also I think everybody

Ashley:

needs a plan for what to do if you do need a break because a

Ashley:

lot of people I mean, you know, I think we all need breaks here

Ashley:

and there. My my show is seasonal, so I can I have a

Ashley:

certain number of episodes that I want to cover and then I will

Ashley:

take a break maybe for a couple of months. One time it was for

Ashley:

an entire maternity leave. So, you know, but but I think that's

Ashley:

that's important to you don't have to just keep going. You can

Ashley:

take breaks and I think that can make your podcast last a little

Ashley:

longer rather than just feeling like, Oh, this is too much. I

Ashley:

can't just keep doing this week after week, I'm just going to

Ashley:

stop.

Danny:

Just prior to episode seven being recorded, Spotify

Danny:

announced it had left the IAB, the industry standard for

Danny:

podcast measurement. So Mark and I jumped on it immediately and

Danny:

brought James Cridland on to talk about what this meant for

Danny:

the industry.

James:

Yeah, and I think, you know, Rob Walsh on The Feed

James:

keeps on saying, and I think this is great advice, keeps on

James:

saying the numbers are actually unimportant. What's actually

James:

important here is the trend. Are you increasing every single week?

James:

If you're not increasing every single week, then that's

James:

something to worry about. But as long as you're increasing, as

James:

long as that trend is showing you increasing and as long as

James:

you can see when you do something new that the figures

James:

go up faster, then that's all that really matters. So I

James:

wouldn't for most of the podcasters listening to this. I

James:

wouldn't be particularly worried about the fact that Spotify no

James:

longer has the certification. I mean, if you're hosting on

James:

Spotify for Podcasters, then I would I would always be saying

James:

you might want to be hosting somewhere else. But in terms of

James:

in terms of worrying about whether those numbers that you

James:

get are absolutely, you know, accurate, I wouldn't I wouldn't

James:

worry too much. It does change when you are talking to

James:

advertisers who clearly want more accurate numbers.

Danny:

In episode eight, we took a look at what monetization

Danny:

looks like for podcasting and does the CPM model work or does

Danny:

podcasting need a more sustainable approach to

Danny:

monetization for small to medium size podcasts? Tom Webster had

Danny:

this to say.

Tom:

Podcasting has has historically been sold as a

Tom:

digital medium, and if you look at it as a digital medium, its

Tom:

metrics are found wanting, right? You don't get all of it. You

Tom:

know, what's my click through rate? We don't have a click

Tom:

through rate. You know, you could sort of get you can get IP

Tom:

address and user ID and and you know device basically and you

Tom:

can choose to do some work around that. It's not great It's

Tom:

not perfect. What if instead you look at it as well it's a

Tom:

different thing, right? It's a you look at it as an analog

Tom:

medium with incredible metrics. Then you have a slightly

Tom:

different sale here because what it provides is more engagement

Tom:

than display. It provides more engagement even than than video

Tom:

with its short form, you know, very skippable ads. So you're

Tom:

basically saying we provide the incredible engagement of analog

Tom:

medium with incredible metrics. You know, having said all of

Tom:

that, I'll just say again that there are a lot of elements of

Tom:

AdTech that have just not caught up to where we need to be and we

Tom:

need some more innovation there.

Danny:

And finally, rounding this collection up, episode nine

Danny:

saw Mark and I are talking about YouTube and its role in

Danny:

podcasting. Despite support of RSS feed ingestion added last

Danny:

year and more podcast listener features added to YouTube Music,

Danny:

many audio first podcasters are still asking whether YouTube

Danny:

actually cares about podcasting. Something I speak about here.

Danny:

Yeah. And I think that's all it's an add on, right? It's they

Danny:

want you to create within the creator studio and upload your

Danny:

videos there, use all their tools and then check a box, this

Danny:

is a podcast, great, we'll send that as a playlist. And that

Danny:

will be audio playback on YouTube Music. But it seems a

Danny:

complete opposite from an Apple where they physically want you

Danny:

to create audio. I mean, Apple's supported video since two

Danny:

thousand and five, back in the old iTunes days, but they just

Danny:

don't really push it as an option because they know

Danny:

YouTube's got video locked down, but Apple gives you tools to

Danny:

create audio only content and feed that out, etc. It just

Danny:

feels like YouTube's doing the complete opposite and there's no

Danny:

real benefit. I look at my analytics, I get maybe one or

Danny:

two plays, views, listens, whatever you want to call it, on

Danny:

my RSS ingested feed episode. And then I look at when I do the

Danny:

video version of that, I'm not a big. I've not got a lot of

Danny:

subscribers still, under 50. I got on my YouTube channel, but I

Danny:

get a decent amount of views because that's how the

Danny:

algorithm's set up. So it's not... the RSS is there, but it's like,

Danny:

is it really there if no one's really using it, you know, or

Danny:

thinking of YouTube as audio, really, I don't know. Thanks so

Danny:

much for listening to this bonus episode. I think you'll agree

Danny:

that there's been some great discussion so far and we're only

Danny:

just getting started. Thanks so much to our amazing guests so

Danny:

far and to you, the listener, for being here with us each week

Danny:

and for making the show one that's quickly found its way

Danny:

into the listening habits of both podcasters and anyone

Danny:

interested in the podcasting space. If there's someone you

Danny:

know that would enjoy the show, to be sure to recommend us by

Danny:

sending them to In and Around Podcasting dot com, where they

Danny:

can catch up on any episodes they've missed. And if you enjoy

Danny:

the show and wanted to show that by leaving us a review, you can

Danny:

do that over at In and Around Podcasting dot com slash review.

Danny:

Thank you for all your support so far. And we'll be back next

Danny:

week, same place, same time with more industry insights. Until

Danny:

then, keep doing what you do in this wonderful industry that

Danny:

means so much to us all. Bye bye for now.

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