As the industry descends on the Podcast Show 2024 in London, UK, we take a look back at the first couple of months of In & Around Podcasting.
We've covered a wealth of important topics, and been delighted to bring some fantastic insights around these topics from both industry insiders and indie podcasters. So sit back, and enjoy this recap.
Featured in this episode: @smashleyhamer on Twitter @JamesCridland on Twitter @jcasabona on Twitter @webby2001 on Twitter @VeritySangan on Twitter Deirdre's Facebook group Sam's Facebook page
In & Around Podcasting is a podcast industry podcast brought to you by Mark Asquith and Danny Brown.
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Hi, and welcome to this special bonus episode of In &
Danny:Around Podcasting, the industry show that shares powerful
Danny:podcasting perspectives. As thousands of podcasters descend
Danny:on The Podcast Show in London, including my erstwhile co-host
Danny:Mark Asquith, we thought we'd take the opportunity to look
Danny:back at the first few months of In & Around Podcasting. We've
Danny:covered a wealth of important topics and been delighted to
Danny:bring some fantastic insights around these topics from both
Danny:industry insiders and indie podcasters. So sit back and
Danny:enjoy this recap. In episode one, we talked about the narrative
Danny:around the death of podcasting, that some naysayers are
Danny:promoting, down to reduced budgets, industry layoffs, the
Danny:dropping of exclusive podcasts and more. Verity Sangan shared
Danny:how she believes a lot of this can come down to a lack of
Danny:strategy in podcasting.
Verity:This is where I think a lot of this argument comes with
Verity:podcasting is dead is because I think that there are a lot of
Verity:people who have tried with podcasting. Maybe they have been
Verity:part of the, you know, statistical 80% or whatever it
Verity:is that you don't get past episode three or what have you.
Verity:And maybe podcasting didn't work for them. But then one of the
Verity:things that I'm really interested in and I'm such a
Verity:strategy girl everything for me is strategy. And people get fed
Verity:up of hearing me say the word strategy sometimes, I think. But,
Verity:you know, it's this idea of if you start anything, I think then
Verity:you aren't going to see the success. And I'm saying success
Verity:in inverted commas, because I do believe that success is going to
Verity:look different for different people. And it's that idea that
Verity:unless you do have a plan and you do have a strategy, then
Verity:you're not going to see that success. And I think you're then
Verity:going to continue to feed into the narrative of, well, yeah,
Verity:podcasting is dead because it didn't work for me. It didn't
Verity:work for Joe Bloggs or whoever. I didn't immediately become the
Verity:next the next I was going to say Seth Rogan then - no Joe Rogan,
Verity:very different person. I didn't become the next, you know, Joe
Verity:Rogan within a week. So what was the point? And I think that just
Verity:feeds that narrative.
Danny:Episode two saw us taking a look at the Podcasting 2.0
Danny:initiative and how that's making the listener experience better.
Danny:Here, Joe Casabona shared some great points on how the industry
Danny:can position the benefits of the features, which are what both
Danny:podcasters and listeners are really interested in.
Joe:I think it really is kind of up to the industry folks to...
Joe:it's almost like saying like as a carmaker, I don't want to oh
Joe:well, only less than like less than 1% of people die from car
Joe:crashes. So I'm not going to put airbags in my car. Like, well,
Joe:that's a crazy thing to say. But I think like again, from the
Joe:kind of feature standpoint, there are, as I watch the
Joe:Podcasting 2.0 space and some of the features that get
Joe:implemented and the things that I think are going to be most
Joe:helpful, that's that's kind of where I land. So like
Joe:transcripts I've been bullish on, like transcripts are necessary
Joe:for a podcast. Like I my show, my current show, my flagship
Joe:show also launched in twenty sixteen. In twenty seventeen, it
Joe:had transcripts because, you know, I think that it's an
Joe:accessibility play, it's a search play. It's a lot of
Joe:things. And so it's really cool to see
Joe:Apple and other people kind of implement this and give native
Joe:support to it. Things like chapter markers. I think that's
Joe:that's technically Podcasting 2.0. Maybe
Joe:that's like support it if you want. It's like kind of hard to
Joe:add. Maybe other apps do it better, but I think about what's
Joe:going to make the biggest impact based on my clients or students
Joe:goals, right? We want to grow the show. Transcripts are
Joe:necessary for that, chapter markers if you're going to
Joe:upload it to YouTube now. Right. And there is like the medium tag
Joe:now. So that's pretty cool to see. Maybe we maybe we do that
Joe:It's I guess it's all very goals based is the most succinct way
Joe:for me to put it.
Danny:In episode three, we had a wonderful discussion around AI
Danny:and podcasting, including the ethical dilemmas around its use
Danny:and what it means for creators. Deirdre Tshien used an example
Danny:of how a creator leads by human expertise, and AI takes that to
Danny:enhance the content for results.
Deirdre:A lot of it is introducing them to the
Deirdre:strategies that we really lean into that actually gets them
Deirdre:results. So, you know, an example is Katie Brinkley, who
Deirdre:is a social media guru. She talks about a four post social
Deirdre:media strategy and why I love the four post social media
Deirdre:strategy is because, again, it's not content for content sake. I
Deirdre:mean, yes, you're still creating content, but you're creating
Deirdre:content in order to drive a particular like action, whether
Deirdre:that's engagement on social media or whether that's opt in
Deirdre:to a lead magnet or into a workshop. Right, Because we're
Deirdre:talking to entrepreneurs here. And so like so for me, if I
Deirdre:could share these strategies that are very human led and hey,
Deirdre:AI can yes. Help you, you know, shortcut and make it way more
Deirdre:efficient to give you the base of, for example, these four
Deirdre:posts. But one of them, for example, one of the posts is
Deirdre:actually what she calls a community post, which is all
Deirdre:about your story. Like, AI cannot actually generate that.
Deirdre:Like it just cannot because it can't, you know, until we have
Deirdre:chips in our brains or whatever, like it actually doesn't know
Deirdre:your memories, it doesn't know your story. So you actually have
Deirdre:to be part of that process to like help create that post. I
Deirdre:mean, yes, AI can give you inspiration, which Capsho does
Deirdre:do, which is like, Hey, maybe based on the topic of your
Deirdre:podcast, this is a story that you can bring to life or, you
Deirdre:know, it'll give you some ideas, but at the end of the day it's
Deirdre:still you.
Danny:Episode four saw Mark and I review Podcast Movement
Danny:Evolutions along with where live podcast events have
Danny:opportunities. This includes defining industry events from
Danny:consumer events.
Mark:But yeah, that would be, that would be a just my bit of
Mark:feedback would be if it's going to be I think if it's going to
Mark:be industry just LA just feels industry you know L.A. or New
Mark:York personally feel that industry. You've got a hot spot
Mark:over there. You've got, you know, that that whole concept of the
Mark:podcast industry. And I think that's why London does so well
Mark:and why the podcast should do so well, because here in Europe,
Mark:London is the hub. You know, you've got Global, you've got
Mark:the BBC, you've got The Guardian, the Daily Mail, the Telegraph,
Mark:you've got all of these people that are really taking up the
Mark:top spots, even some of the networks like Sky, like, you
Mark:know, people like Channel Four and ITV, some of the rewatch
Mark:stuff, they're all in one place and it feels like LA is like the
Mark:spiritual counterpart of that in the US. So I just feel that it
Mark:could be don't know if it would benefit from it, but I just feel
Mark:it sort of sounds logical and feels logical. And I know there
Mark:are logistical and financial incentives and challenges to
Mark:overcome and whatever else, but it feels like Podcast Movement
Mark:industry stuff sort of needs a home, like it needs to be just
Mark:bound to somewhere where you might be able to add a bit of
Mark:demarcation between, okay, here's the creative stuff and
Mark:here's the industry stuff.
Danny:In episode five, we took a look at why the smaller
Danny:podcast apps have a future. As Apple and Spotify continue to
Danny:mop up the majority of listeners between them, Sam Sethi stated
Danny:the case for smaller apps to make interactivity between
Danny:podcast and listener key and how that can help set these apps
Danny:apart.
Sam:Discovery of content is a critical thing. One of the
Sam:things that Apple and Spotify don't have is any interactivity
Sam:back to the creator, and that's a big thing. So the ability to
Sam:leave comments, living with a cool boost. So, you know, we've
Sam:got this new language that's got to be adapted to people, but a
Sam:boost is simply just a comment with a payment. And then again,
Sam:that means that you can leave two things. You can have
Sam:comments back to the creator who can then in the next episode go,
Sam:Hey, I was just doing the show and Mary said, blah, blah, blah
Sam:about the show. And you've then got that audience participation,
Sam:that community, and then there's fan to fan. So that two people
Sam:might be talking about your show and can leave a comment so they
Sam:don't have to include the creator. So I think what we're
Sam:looking at is new ways of enabling listeners to interact
Sam:and discover content and new ways for you as a creator, to
Sam:reach your audience, create your fan base, create your community.
Sam:Those are things that Apple and Spotify aren't very good at
Sam:doing is creating that community element and that interactivity
Sam:element.
Danny:In episode six we talked about a topic that probably
Danny:every podcast has faced before, and that's podfade, with new
Danny:data showing that a large percentage of podcasters don't
Danny:make it past episode five. Here, Ashley Hamer explains how
Danny:finding your specific niche and planning episodes several months
Danny:ahead of publication can help prevent podcasters from giving
Danny:up so early.
Ashley:But for for the ability to actually just keep making my
Ashley:show week after week, it's it's really the that thing I was
Ashley:saying about internal motivation. Like I, I didn't see a podcast,
Ashley:a science podcast that specifically talked about, you
Ashley:know, the taboo topics in in our world. And I wanted to make that
Ashley:and I wanted that to exist. And so that kind of driving force is,
Ashley:is really powerful. It helps me keep going. And then and then in
Ashley:addition to that, I think every podcaster needs to have a really
Ashley:long list of, of episode topics. You know, it's really easy to
Ashley:come up with five. It's not that easy to come up with thirty. And
Ashley:that's kind of your deciding factor of like whether this idea
Ashley:for a podcast actually has legs and, and also I think everybody
Ashley:needs a plan for what to do if you do need a break because a
Ashley:lot of people I mean, you know, I think we all need breaks here
Ashley:and there. My my show is seasonal, so I can I have a
Ashley:certain number of episodes that I want to cover and then I will
Ashley:take a break maybe for a couple of months. One time it was for
Ashley:an entire maternity leave. So, you know, but but I think that's
Ashley:that's important to you don't have to just keep going. You can
Ashley:take breaks and I think that can make your podcast last a little
Ashley:longer rather than just feeling like, Oh, this is too much. I
Ashley:can't just keep doing this week after week, I'm just going to
Ashley:stop.
Danny:Just prior to episode seven being recorded, Spotify
Danny:announced it had left the IAB, the industry standard for
Danny:podcast measurement. So Mark and I jumped on it immediately and
Danny:brought James Cridland on to talk about what this meant for
Danny:the industry.
James:Yeah, and I think, you know, Rob Walsh on The Feed
James:keeps on saying, and I think this is great advice, keeps on
James:saying the numbers are actually unimportant. What's actually
James:important here is the trend. Are you increasing every single week?
James:If you're not increasing every single week, then that's
James:something to worry about. But as long as you're increasing, as
James:long as that trend is showing you increasing and as long as
James:you can see when you do something new that the figures
James:go up faster, then that's all that really matters. So I
James:wouldn't for most of the podcasters listening to this. I
James:wouldn't be particularly worried about the fact that Spotify no
James:longer has the certification. I mean, if you're hosting on
James:Spotify for Podcasters, then I would I would always be saying
James:you might want to be hosting somewhere else. But in terms of
James:in terms of worrying about whether those numbers that you
James:get are absolutely, you know, accurate, I wouldn't I wouldn't
James:worry too much. It does change when you are talking to
James:advertisers who clearly want more accurate numbers.
Danny:In episode eight, we took a look at what monetization
Danny:looks like for podcasting and does the CPM model work or does
Danny:podcasting need a more sustainable approach to
Danny:monetization for small to medium size podcasts? Tom Webster had
Danny:this to say.
Tom:Podcasting has has historically been sold as a
Tom:digital medium, and if you look at it as a digital medium, its
Tom:metrics are found wanting, right? You don't get all of it. You
Tom:know, what's my click through rate? We don't have a click
Tom:through rate. You know, you could sort of get you can get IP
Tom:address and user ID and and you know device basically and you
Tom:can choose to do some work around that. It's not great It's
Tom:not perfect. What if instead you look at it as well it's a
Tom:different thing, right? It's a you look at it as an analog
Tom:medium with incredible metrics. Then you have a slightly
Tom:different sale here because what it provides is more engagement
Tom:than display. It provides more engagement even than than video
Tom:with its short form, you know, very skippable ads. So you're
Tom:basically saying we provide the incredible engagement of analog
Tom:medium with incredible metrics. You know, having said all of
Tom:that, I'll just say again that there are a lot of elements of
Tom:AdTech that have just not caught up to where we need to be and we
Tom:need some more innovation there.
Danny:And finally, rounding this collection up, episode nine
Danny:saw Mark and I are talking about YouTube and its role in
Danny:podcasting. Despite support of RSS feed ingestion added last
Danny:year and more podcast listener features added to YouTube Music,
Danny:many audio first podcasters are still asking whether YouTube
Danny:actually cares about podcasting. Something I speak about here.
Danny:Yeah. And I think that's all it's an add on, right? It's they
Danny:want you to create within the creator studio and upload your
Danny:videos there, use all their tools and then check a box, this
Danny:is a podcast, great, we'll send that as a playlist. And that
Danny:will be audio playback on YouTube Music. But it seems a
Danny:complete opposite from an Apple where they physically want you
Danny:to create audio. I mean, Apple's supported video since two
Danny:thousand and five, back in the old iTunes days, but they just
Danny:don't really push it as an option because they know
Danny:YouTube's got video locked down, but Apple gives you tools to
Danny:create audio only content and feed that out, etc. It just
Danny:feels like YouTube's doing the complete opposite and there's no
Danny:real benefit. I look at my analytics, I get maybe one or
Danny:two plays, views, listens, whatever you want to call it, on
Danny:my RSS ingested feed episode. And then I look at when I do the
Danny:video version of that, I'm not a big. I've not got a lot of
Danny:subscribers still, under 50. I got on my YouTube channel, but I
Danny:get a decent amount of views because that's how the
Danny:algorithm's set up. So it's not... the RSS is there, but it's like,
Danny:is it really there if no one's really using it, you know, or
Danny:thinking of YouTube as audio, really, I don't know. Thanks so
Danny:much for listening to this bonus episode. I think you'll agree
Danny:that there's been some great discussion so far and we're only
Danny:just getting started. Thanks so much to our amazing guests so
Danny:far and to you, the listener, for being here with us each week
Danny:and for making the show one that's quickly found its way
Danny:into the listening habits of both podcasters and anyone
Danny:interested in the podcasting space. If there's someone you
Danny:know that would enjoy the show, to be sure to recommend us by
Danny:sending them to In and Around Podcasting dot com, where they
Danny:can catch up on any episodes they've missed. And if you enjoy
Danny:the show and wanted to show that by leaving us a review, you can
Danny:do that over at In and Around Podcasting dot com slash review.
Danny:Thank you for all your support so far. And we'll be back next
Danny:week, same place, same time with more industry insights. Until
Danny:then, keep doing what you do in this wonderful industry that
Danny:means so much to us all. Bye bye for now.